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Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage debate -
Thursday, 8 Dec 2022

Regulation of Providers of Building Works and Miscellaneous Provisions Act 2022 (Appointment of Registration Body) Order 2022: Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage

Apologies have been received from Senator Boyhan. I welcome everyone to the meeting, the purpose of which is to consider the proposed Regulation of Providers of Building Works and Miscellaneous Provisions Act 2022 (Appointment of Registration Body) Order 2022.

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Peter Burke, and his officials to this meeting. Members have been circulated with the relevant papers. I invite the Minister of State to briefly outline the purpose of this regulation, following which I will invite members to pose questions.

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for affording me the opportunity to present this proposed regulation, Regulation of Providers of Building Works and Miscellaneous Provisions Act 2022 (Appointment of Registration Body) Order 2022.

The regulation provides for the appointment of the Construction Industry Federation, CIF, as the statutory registration body for the Construction Industry Register Ireland, CIRI. This is an important step in the establishment of a statutory register for builders. As explained during the passage of the Bill, it is intended that the CIF will be appointed as the statutory registration body. It is preferable that a body with experience and expertise in the construction industry performs this function, similar to how the Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland, RIAI, and the Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland, SCSI, operate statutory registers for architects and surveyors. The Act requires the Minister to take into account the need for the new body appointed to possess sufficient expertise and knowledge relating to standards in construction, including development and monitoring of those standards.

On establishment it is intended that the registration body will appoint a registrar and administrative staff and will commence the development of a robust IT system for registration. Upon appointment of the independent board it is intended that the board will establish committees to determine categories of registration and the competencies required for each category. The board will recommend these categories and competencies to the Minister and subject to his or her review, the Minister will make regulations for the categories of registration and the competencies required.

The CIRI was established on a voluntary basis in 2014 by the CIF. Approximately 800 building and contracting entities are currently included on the register. This will increase substantially once the requirement to register with the statutory register comes into effect.

It is estimated that at least 5,000 entities will be required to register. It is envisaged that builders can begin registering in 2024 and it will be statutory from 2025 for the first categories established. These will likely be house builders and non-residential builders. Registration for various trades will happen subsequently.

Given the wider functions of the CIF, there are a number of safeguards in place to ensure and maintain the independence of the registration body. The registration body will have delegated responsibility for the day-to-day maintenance of the register within the confines of the specific and limited parameters set out in the Bill.

The board of the registration body will be completely independent of the body. The independence of the registration body will be maintained through the following measures: all powers of the registration body will be prescribed in legislation; all competency requirements for registration will be recommended by the board and prescribed by the Minister; the board will make decisions in relation to all sanctions including removal from the register; removal from the register must be confirmed by the High Court; and all prosecutions under the Act will be taken by the board or the Director of Public Prosecutions.

Registration will apply to entities or individuals who hold themselves out for consideration as a provider of building works for both residential and non-residential buildings, subject to the building regulations. It does not include employees of such entities but does include sole traders. This will mean significant change for all sections of the industry that will be obliged to demonstrate the required competencies to carry out building works in the categories for which they are registered.

Many examples of building failure as a result of non-compliance with building regulations have come to light in recent years due to deficient regulation of the construction sector. This contributed significantly to the large number of buildings constructed in Ireland which did not comply with statutory minimum standards of design and construction as set out in the building regulations.

There has been a significant effort over the past decade to address past deficiencies, most notably through the implementation of a range of building control reforms. Since 2011, the reforms have focused primarily on ensuring strong and effective regulation in the building control system, and the construction industry, on improving compliance with the building regulations, and on greater consumer protection.

To further support the building control system, preparatory work is progressing on establishing an independent building standards regulator to oversee building control nationwide and to act as custodian of the building control management system. The Regulation of Providers of Building Works and Miscellaneous Provisions Act 2022 builds on this work by developing and promoting a culture of competence, good practice and compliance with the building regulations in the broader construction sector, which will benefit consumers and the public. Mandatory statutory regulation is necessary to protect the public from the risks posed by defective buildings, as it is the only way to ensure that builders can only take on work for which they are competent in and registered to undertake.

It will be an essential consumer protection measure giving those who engage a registered builder the assurance that they are dealing with a competent and compliant operator. It is a key regulatory measure of the broader building control reform agenda and the Housing for All objective to deliver quality housing.

I am sure that the Minister of State will be relieved to know that I will not rerun either the Second Stage debate or the considerable committee deliberations that we had. I want to briefly put on record my strong opposition to the appointment of the Construction Industry Federation as the registered body.

To be clear, I fully support the need for the register. As the register is a good thing, it is better to have a weak register than no register at all. It is significant that it has taken 45 years to get us this far. The Law Reform Commission first urged the creation of a register in 1977 but the suggestion was ignored for many years by subsequent Governments, partly because of the strong opposition of the Construction Industry Federation. It was 2014 before the Government committed to the creation of the register. It is exactly as the Minister of State said, it was his predecessor, Phil Hogan, who included it as part of his post-Priory Hall reforms. While I have no evidence to support what I am about to say, it is my strong suspicion that somewhere along the line in negotiations between the Construction Industry Federation and a Government, the way that this register was got over the line was that it would be located in the Construction Industry Federation rather than any fully independent body.

I do not accept the comparisons with the Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland and the Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland. It is not that I necessarily favour the form of self-regulation they are involved in but given everything that we know about the scale and depth of the Celtic tiger-era building defects, it seems to me the very last organisation in which we should locate the register is the Construction Industry Federation. I engage with CIF regularly, it has a series of functions and I do not disregard or disrespect that but having a register is both about the register doing the right thing and it being seen to do the right thing. Again, I emphasise that I think the Government is making a mistake here.

I remind the Minister of State that I think the legislation is weak. The limited functions of the registration body are problematic as it will give an exceptionally limited form of consumer protection and, again, he knows my views on all of that. Therefore, I cannot support the appointment of CIF as the registration body.

We were always going to end up here and this was always the intention. I fully understand and respect that but nothing that I have heard in the course of debates on Second Stage or in committee has altered that. It may be that a future Government will be obliged to amend the legislation both to give those people who purchased homes real consumer protection and real safeguards against shoddy practices and to appoint a truly independent body, which I believe should be a building control and consumer protection authority, the nucleus of which is currently the National Building Control and Market Surveillance Office. My view today is the same as it was when we first debated this matter.

Likewise, I strongly oppose the appointment of CIF to be the register.

In his opening statement, the Minister of State referred to how, "Given the wider functions of the CIF, there are a number of safeguards in place". That latter statement on safeguards given the other roles of the Construction Industry Federation is not a position we should be in. I mean we should not appoint a body to this role when the Minister feels that additional or particular safeguards need to be put in place. There should just be absolute independence and no question about that.

This week, we had a delegation from the Construction Defects Alliance in the Oireachtas to give a briefing to Oireachtas Members. One of the striking things from the hour-long presentation was that they talked about the huge stress that construction defects put on homeowners and residents. They said that a lot of the volunteer directors in the management companies and apartment blocks are already under a huge amount of additional stresses and pressures. In his presentation, Mr. Kevin Hollingsworth showed that the serious defects in apartment blocks were not there by accident or a lack of knowledge. He showed the visual evidence that there were serious defects and that fire safety compartmentalisation was breached on a vast scale deliberately by people who knew exactly what they were doing by cutting corners and maybe saved a little bit of time or a little expense. He gave an example where a saving of about €30 was made by deliberately breaking through the concrete compartmentalisation between two apartments and two floors. In fact, the move put the entire building at risk in terms of fire spread and smoke spread, which is most likely to affect people or kill people. This is not like a normal industry in terms of its track record. It really is a stand-out in terms of the billions of euro the State is going to have to put in and is putting in through remediation for the massive damage done to people's lives. I am not saying that the Construction Industry Federation is responsible for that but to have a representative organisation of many of the people who are responsible for that performing a role that should be independent does not stand up.

I have a few questions. How long will the appointment be for and when will it be reviewed?

I am not asking the Minister of State to speculate on a change of Government but if, for example, there was a change of Government or a change in its composition in two years' time, could the new Government or Minister change this straight away? What is the process around it? How long is this for? Is there a guaranteed length of time on it?

On the decision-making about this, who else was under consideration, apart from the CIF? Was the rationale for the CIF in particular to be chosen? While I am aware it has been running the voluntary register, apart from that what was the particular rationale for it, as opposed to any other body that would be independent? Were the strong concerns articulated by the Opposition during the debate on the Bill considered during this process? I seek a comment on what Deputy Ó Broin said. Is the federation's appointment as a result of informal agreement or negotiations or anything at any stage whereby it would support the introduction of this legislation and of this role if it was to be appointed to it? Some comment on that would be useful.

I absolutely support the introduction of the independent building standards regulator. It needs to be done and to be taken seriously. Can the Minister of State provide a timeframe for that legislation? How is that progressing? All of us can agree it is an important role that is badly needed and it needs to be a priority. To reiterate, can the Minister of State give us some information on and the timeline for the independent building standards regulator legislation that is currently being worked on? That is very important. Presumably, when that independent building standards regulator is set up, it could take on this role. Does the Minister of State have a view in this regard?

First, section 9 of the Act provides for periodic reviews of the appointed register and in respect of the functions of the registration body. They can be changed by the board and by the Minister. We do not need to amend the Act if it were the case that the Construction Industry Federation was not performing as prescribed under the Act. In this case, the appointment body could be changed without any amendment being required to the primary legislation. That is provided for in the Act.

As for the Oireachtas joint committee, significant changes were made to the composition of the board further to the discussions there. As Deputies Ó Broin and Cian O'Callaghan have outlined, we also had detailed discussions on Second and Committee Stages. That is more robust now. Members are to have certain expertise, which is important. There will be two members to be nominated from the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, one each by the Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, two members to appointed on the recommendation of the Public Appointments Service, PAS, and three members to be nominated by the registration body. That advice has come through the deliberations of the committee as well.

On defects, the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, has committed to bringing specific proposals to Cabinet before the end of the year and I concur with both Deputies that people have experienced huge emotional turmoil through no fault of their own, but they were just let down. That is very difficult to take. In the programme for Government, we set the mechanism through the defects committee to deliberate on it. That has done a huge body of work. On Tuesday, the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, put on the record of the House that he would get proposals through this week.

As for the building controls regulator, Ibelieve that is out for consultation at the moment. To clarify, the Department is working with the Housing Agency. I have no further information on that but I will communicate with or write to the Deputy with a more specific update on it.

I have one comment. I thank the Minister of State and it would be useful if he would write to the committee on the independent building standards regulator with an update on that. That would be very useful.

To clarify the Minister of State's answer on the body that is to be appointed, which is in this case the Construction Industry Federation. The Minister of State said that if it is not performing, that could be changed-----

Without amendment to this Act.

If a clear case cannot be established that it is not performing, can it also be changed or not? If there was a change in Government or if a different Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage felt that this was not the best way to do it, can it be changed? Is this set in policy?

Any new Government can take a different position on these items. I am sure it potentially could.

Yes, but without legislative change.

It is provided for in the Act that you do not need to amend the Act to change the register if the registration body is not performing the tasks as are specifically set out within the Act.

Therefore, you would have to establish that in order to make the chance.

The committee has clear boundaries in terms of how it would adjudicate on the performance of the registered body once it has been appointed.

Is there a timetable in terms of periodic review?

Section 9 states "The Minister shall appoint a person to carry out periodic inspections, reviews and audits in relation to the performance by the registration body". It is therefore essentially up to the Minister to decide what the review period should be. That is provided for in the Act.

To have this clear, it is my understanding that if the body is performing as per the Act, then the body will be in place indefinitely. Is that the situation?

First, the board will be holding the body to account under the parameters that they are operating under and for good practice. Every Government would be of the view that there should be reviews to ensure how they get the prima facie evidence that it is performing to standard. That is done by having reviews and by having mechanisms to do that in the Act, and those are in place.

I have a question on the observation in the Minister of State's opening statement that there are approximately 800 building and contracting entities. Then a little further on, the Minister of State noted, "It is envisaged that builders can begin registering in 2024". For clarity, is a building or contracting entity a company-----

Or a sole trader potentially.

-----or a sole trader? What is the definition of a builder? The Minister of State went on to state:

These will likely be house builders and non-residential builders. Registration for various trades will happen subsequently.

This is not to say that there are not some very skilled builders out there but I was always of the mind that traditionally, the tradespeople were the builders. In my experience, the carpenter or block-layer who was the lead and the builder was the company. Is there a definition of a builder as opposed to trades, which are well defined?

Yes. Section 3(1) of the Act provides details of the definition of a builder. Essentially, it is the provider of building services under the Building Control Act. It is governed by the Building Control Act.

Is it the case that a provider of services does not require a qualification or a trade-----

Some people will be coming in under experience and under projects that they have undertaken that would have to have been assessed. Getting onto the register is therefore a significant task. People's abilities must be assessed either by their qualifications or by their past experience. Then, the key requirement is to have professional development and upskilling mandated throughout your period on the register.

That is an important point the Minister of State has clarified.

No further members have indicated. Members have had the opportunity to consider the draft Regulations. We have now completed our consideration and the Clerk will send messages to that effect to the Clerk of the Dáil and the Clerk of the Seanad in accordance with Standing Orders 101 and 75, respectively. Under Standing Order 100(2) of the Dáil and Standing Order 77(2) of the Seanad, the message is deemed to be the report of the committee.

I thank the Minister of State for his attendance and we-----

Procedurally, do we get an opportunity to not agree to that or is that just a procedure?

It is an order that we are to consider but it is not for us to agree. The committee's role is to consider that order and to report back that we have done so.

It will be recorded that we have said that we do not agree with the appointment.

It is not a matter for us to agree or to disagree. The order is to consider-----

I just wanted to check that.

The joint committee will adjourn until Tuesday, 13 December at 11 a.m. That meeting will be held in private session.

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