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Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage debate -
Tuesday, 31 Jan 2023

General Scheme of the Marine Protected Areas Bill 2023: Discussion (resumed)

Today we are meeting to resume discussion of the general scheme of the marine protected areas Bill 2023. This is the second meeting on this matter. The third meeting will be held on Thursday and then we will prepare our pre-legislative scrutiny, PLS, report including our recommendations from these meetings. I welcome Professor Tasman Crowe who is professor of marine ecology, director of University College Dublin, UCD's, earth institute, chair of the national biodiversity forum and chair of the marine protected areas advisory group, back to the committee. We appreciate his attendance. Professor Crowe's opening statement and briefing have been circulated to members

I will read a quick note on privilege before we commence. Members are reminded of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. Witnesses and others attending the committee room are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions to today’s meeting. This means they will have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. Witnesses attending the meeting remotely are not afforded absolute privilege.

Both members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy, and it is my duty as Chair to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Before Professor Crowe commences his opening statement, I remind the committee that the format we follow is that member have approximately seven minutes to ask questions and receive the answers to those questions. As we are not likely to have full attendance today, we can stretch it out to eight or ten minutes. I invite Professor Crowe to make his opening statement.

Professor Tasman Crowe

I thank the Chair for the introduction. As mentioned, I have a particular interest the Bill because I was chair of the advisory group of 20 experts who prepared the 2020 report on expanding Ireland’s marine protected areas, MPA, network. We engaged with more than 100 key stakeholders in doing so. We all worked hard to ensure the report could provide the best advice based on international best practice and Ireland’s unique context and considerations. I am delighted to see many of its key recommendations reflected directly in the Bill.

In this opening statement, I will outline my views on the importance of and rationale for some of the core elements of the Bill. The first of these is to give clarity in law on what an MPA is. It is important for everyone to appreciate that designating an MPA does not entail putting a fence up around the area and preventing anything from happening in it. In some cases, there may be grounds for this, and indeed the EU biodiversity strategy seeks ‘strict protection’ for 10% of our maritime area, but that is not explicitly reflected in the Bill. However, in most cases, for each MPA there will be stated objectives that relate to the specified species, habitats or other features an MPA is designated to protect. Conservation measures, which are regulations, restrictions or actions, will be tailored to those objectives, such that an activity that does not conflict with them would not be restricted.

In other cases, activities may be able to proceed in modified form. For example, if there were protection for a seagrass bed on the sea floor, leisure boats would perhaps be allowed to pass over it but not to anchor in it.

A key provision of the Bill - perhaps the single most important one, even if it is not as prominent as I think it should be - is for stakeholder consultation and participation throughout the process of identifying and managing MPAs. That kind of co-creation and co-management is becoming a key principle in MPAs around the world. The aim is to foster a sense of ownership and stewardship. It is important to give real opportunity for discussion of management measures that will impact people's lives, both positively and negatively. That will help to engender understanding of, and voluntary support for, the rules, but it is also important that final responsibility for enforcement lies with the State and that mechanisms are in place to ensure compliance.

Another key point is that MPAs would not be designated on just an ad hoc basis. The first step is to establish an ocean environmental policy statement. Decisions can then be made by reference to it in a strategic approach to meet agreed objectives and targets in the context of national priorities and international policy instruments, such as the EU's marine strategy framework directive and the UN Convention on Biological Diversity.

In fact, there is an indication of provision for two broad approaches to selecting MPAs within that policy environment. The first is a systematic approach considering the set or network of MPAs and what we want that network to achieve under the ocean environment policy statement. The second is for MPAs to be proposed by individuals or groups in society and reviewed against a set of criteria such that they also contribute to overarching goals. Either way, a rigorous, evidence-based approach is important, using best available evidence and applying the precautionary principle.

As such, there is provision in the Bill for an independent expert body and other sources of advice to inform the Minister's decisions. That is also important, partly because trust, impartiality and objectivity are key and also because this approach draws on recognised expertise from the full range of disciplinary perspectives needed to co-create an effective and efficient network of MPAs.

A key part of the rationale for the Bill is the scope to designate for a range of features that cannot be explicitly protected under the EU birds and habitats directives, to designate for protection against specific pressures and to adapt in the face of climate change and changing priorities and through periodic reviews on a cycle of six years or less. As well as threatened and declining species and habitats, ecologically important species and habitats can be conserved, respecting their roles in providing essential habitat for many other species and focusing on essential ecosystem services such as productivity and carbon sequestration for the mitigation of climate change. There is also a provision for temporary emergency protection in some instances. This kind of flexibility and the cycle of reviews give Ireland the scope to ensure that its network of MPAs reflects and contributes to evolving international best practice, is improved through our own experience and meets our full range of needs as a nation.

Having said that, there is also explicit mention of transboundary considerations. That is also important because marine life does not respect international boundaries and it is essential that there is some joined up thinking with our neighbours.

All in all, I think legislation based on this Bill would represent a significant step change in our relationship with the marine environment and present a huge opportunity to better manage our interactions with it, not only for the health and sustainability of the ecosystems themselves but also for the well-being and prosperity of current and future generations. That aspiration was shared by the stakeholders with whom we engaged in preparing the report that substantially underpins it and was reflected in the extensive public consultation that followed. Notably, many of the principles enshrined in the Bill also form the basis for recommendations emerging from the Citizens' Assembly on Biodiversity Loss.

I thank Professor Crowe for his presentation and the work he has done to get us this far. It is hugely important legislation because our seas are such a rich resource for us all. We have a number of these public meetings and then we will make our report. He mentioned in his opening statement the importance of our putting in place legislation, a framework and a process that can evolve. We are dealing with an organic situation.

I wish to talk about the proposal in the legislation to establish an expert group. I was hoping Professor Crowe might be able to share with the committee his views as to how such an expert group should be constituted, what its remit, size and scope should be and the types of resources it will require. Can he can refer us to international examples or best practice that has been established and give us his views as to how that should operate?

Professor Tasman Crowe

That is a good question and it is an interesting and important aspect of the Bill. The reason it is of value is that developing an effective and efficient network of MPAs needs a lot of perspectives. As for its constitution, a model that is similar to the expert advisory group that produced the report in 2020 would be appropriate in that we had a mixture of experts from the natural and oceanographic sciences concerned with the biology, ecology and environment in which the organisms and the features operate. We also had experts who focus on the socioeconomic dimensions, understanding the interplay between society and economic activity and the marine environment. We also have people with expertise in the cultural dimensions because that is also an important consideration. It is a matter of being able to help shape the way in which we think about the MPA network, what it can achieve and so on. That kind of composition works well. The sort of task the group would have would be not dissimilar to the task the advisory group took on board, which is to gather and review all the available evidence from those different perspectives as to the way in which the MPAs should be identified and managed and also to draw on international best practice in doing that. That kind of expert advisory group is one important facet feeding into the decision-making process. As I said, there is also provision in the Bill for ad hoc groups, which I think is intended to mean stakeholder input because an expert advisory group alone should not be the only voice around the table.

Will Mr. Crowe clarify that the expert group will be a permanent, dedicated group? Is that what he imagines? I am just trying to size in my mind organisationally how this looks and operates and what type of resources it will require.

Professor Tasman Crowe

To be honest, that is not something I had thought about.

Is there a model internationally Professor Crowe could point us to?

Professor Tasman Crowe

No, not that I have thought about, not that I would have seen-----

Could he have a think about it?

Professor Tasman Crowe

Yes, I will. I can search around-----

It will be created from scratch, and it is important for us to understand that.

Professor Tasman Crowe

Yes. May I take some time to send a written submission on that question?

That would be great. That would be very helpful.

Professor Tasman Crowe

The Senator is asking about international practice in this regard, essentially.

Yes. I am trying to imagine if these people are dedicated full time to this as an occupation, apart from being experts in their field and coming from different perspectives. In addition, what is their remit? Do they make recommendations to the Minister? How does that work? What is the relationship? If Professor Crowe could explore that for us-----

Professor Tasman Crowe

I would envisage that people would not be on the board full time, with the possible exception of one or two individuals who might be seconded to take a leading role on it.

Its remit is laid out to some degree in the Bill in regard to making recommendations.

Could people who are not in a permanent position dedicated to that be best positioned to do that?

Professor Tasman Crowe

They would be in permanent positions in academic institutions. In a way that does put them in-----

What about resources to do that?

Professor Tasman Crowe

The resourcing for that group to operate would be comparatively small I would say. There would need to be a secretariat of some kind and probably one or two individuals whose time is paid for, as it were. Most of the members of that group would essentially have full-time academic positions and are actively engaged in research, spending their time developing cutting-edge knowledge that needs to be applied.

Would there be people from a commercial background in that group?

Professor Tasman Crowe

There could well be. They would bring that perspective. If there were commercial people in the group, they would need to be remunerated, for sure. I envisage an academic group primarily. It is not my vision, however.

Will Professor Crowe come back to us, if he can, with an example of an international scenario he is working in which is best practice?

Head 16 covers a little of what Senator Fitzpatrick is talking about. The question is whether to constitute this as a permanent advisory body or have somebody come in from time to time.

It is good to see Professor Crowe again. I thank him for his presentation. My series of questions follows on from Senator Fitzpatrick’s. The general scheme, while welcome, is general so there is a good deal of detail that is not in it. We are hoping, through the various hearings, to start to fill out what that detail might look like so that it feeds its way not only into the Bill but also into the implementation of the legislation. There are approximately nine key areas of the scheme and so far we have been speaking about one, the expert body. Does Professor Crowe have any knowledge, experience or opinions, particularly derived from international best practice, on some of the other themes in the Bill in regard to what would be the best approach for us to take to move from what is in the scheme to real life, for example, with regard to marine protected areas, MPAs, architecture and so on? For me, the key issues include public engagement and co-creation. In an ideal world, from Professor Crowe's knowledge of how this operates in other jurisdictions, what is the best way to do that? That is the first issue.

The second issue is the policy statement because that is crucial to ensure we have a proper plan-led approach. Based on Professor Crowe's knowledge of other jurisdictions, where has that worked well and which jurisdictions should we follow? On the designation process, does Professor Crowe have any information from other jurisdictions about how that operates in real time and in the real world?

There is an issue with existing authorisations. There is provision in the general scheme whereby existing authorisations that may not be consistent with conservation requirements could still be allowed to continue. We discuss this with the officials last week. Is Professor Crowe aware of other jurisdictions or EU member states which have managed that tension and have the strongest possible conservation of marine protected areas, while also having provisions in place that would permit certain types of existing authorisations and activities? We had a big conversation about enforcement, who does what and how to do it. The way the Department set that out for us is very complicated. When the range of management authorities is added in it becomes a complex area to understand and navigate. Again, do other jurisdictions have a guide to how we could follow those?

The final two issues are monitoring and restoration. Professor Crowe referred to monitoring in six-year cycles and so on. We had some discussion on whether we should be monitoring the network, the individual MPAs, who does it, how they do it and so on. With regard to restoration, when the formal regime is introduced do we start to identify problems where the existing designations have not been adhered to? How do we ensure restoration is not something that is possible but something that is required where it needs to be done? Does Professor Crowe have any reflections on those issues, particularly as regards countries that are already ahead of the game? He and I have spoken about some of those countries before. Anything he could share with the committee would be very welcome.

Professor Tasman Crowe

I thank Deputy Ó Broin. I will try to pick up on those points. I made a few notes as he was going along. In the stakeholder process there would be a number of examples where effective engagement with stakeholders has made a real step-change in the effectiveness of individual MPAs, in particular where there is a co-design process. This goes back a long way. One of the earlier examples is from the early 1990s in Chile where academics, state agencies and local fishing groups got together around a table and talked through what needed to be done. Previously, any attempts to modify fishing had failed. People just were not interested. They were not complying with any regulations that were put in place. There was a process of agreeing on what needed to be done, exploring the evidence for how it needed to be done and bringing people on board with participating in that. That generated a world first in highly effective co-management. Since then, it has been picked up in many other places. I was at a meeting in Brussels last week for the kick-off of a new project, Blue for All, which looks at best practice throughout Europe to try to come with a universal blueprint for co-creating effective and efficient MPAs. More work will flow from that over the coming years. It was highlighted, for example, that in Spain stakeholder engagement has become mandatory in a formal, structured way in designating, identifying and developing the management measures in protected areas, the reason being that it is recognised that they are much more effective when done that way.

We dedicated a significant portion of our time developing our report and thinking about how that would work widely. It was a strong view of most of the stakeholders that we engage with them and that public consultation should be a prominent part of the system. The usual key phrase was to get stakeholders involved as early in the process as possible and to make sure the process was as inclusive and transparent as possible so that people get a chance to feel their voices have been heard. Decisions will probably never go in such a way that everybody is happy with them but there is a good deal of evidence that suggests that if people respect the process, they are more likely to respect the outcome of that process. Ultimately, it makes the designations much more effective and the MPAs much more likely to work properly.

At the moment, that is not strongly reflected in the Bill. It is hinted at. I picked up a few specific spots in it where I thought there would be scope to further strengthen that provision. In head 9.2.1, for example, there is a public consultation process and the idea is to allow four weeks from notification to submission. That seems to be a very tight timeframe for most people to make a meaningful submission. The very nature of the primary interface being a public consultation exercise that is advertised in the newspapers is not the same as getting people around the table and talking things through. I believe that is an important aspect

Will Professor Crowe describe, in summary form and based on some of those examples of international best practice, the big difference between co-creation and public consultation, as we understand it, where something is published and responded to?

Professor Tasman Crowe

In a nutshell, it is what we have just been saying. Consultation is really just asking for views that someone else around the table then takes on board in making the decisions, whereas co-creation really is having everybody around the table exchanging and sharing views, changing each others' perspectives and arriving at an agreed solution. That perhaps is not always going to be the case. However there will have been a recognised process of genuine involvement that led to that solution. It becomes particularly important further down the process when it comes to deciding on the regulations and restrictions that should be put in place. Often in conversations with people who are on the ground their initial stance may be one of "We absolutely have to stop this activity from happening".

If one then gets involved in more detailed conversations, there are usually practical solutions which respect the conservation objectives of the MPA, which is important, and also enable the activity to continue in some form. There are some good examples of that even within Ireland. We need to be talking to people on a level playing field. That is different from saying that there is a body that makes the decision and will listen to people's views from time to time.

The architecture is complex between management authorities, existing licensing bodies and enforcement, whether conducted by the Naval Service or the Marine Institute. That has become complicated. Have other jurisdictions managed to streamline or simplify that? Have they managed to get co-operation between existing agencies working well?

Professor Tasman Crowe

I am not sure, to be honest. That is not my area. There were other experts in the group who were interested in governance. I could get in touch with them and ask for their perspective on what is being done in other places.

With the indulgence of the Chair, I will ask a final question about best practice in respect of monitoring and how to ensure restoration is an integral part of the system where it is required.

Professor Tasman Crowe

It is important to provide for monitoring. That is not a cheap thing to do, although some economies are potentially available through integrating monitoring programmes for other legislation. The marine strategy framework directive is explicitly mentioned in the Bill. The water framework directive also has monitoring requirements and so on. It is important to monitor the activities and pressures that are being imposed on the environment and the way the environment is changing under those pressures and in areas where those pressures have been lifted. That enables the adaptability and flexibility of the system. One is often making initial decisions with a limited amount of information. There is an indication that particular activity causes problems for the designated feature but one does not know for sure, especially in an Irish context although there may be international evidence. Monitoring gives the opportunity to make an initial restriction and see if there is an effect from restricting things in this particular way. If there is no effect, the situation will need to be revisited and a different way to manage the activity must be found. Removing that activity may make no difference so it should be allowed to persist. It is a part of providing the evidence base for those discussions of co-management groups around the table. There will be situations where we just do not quite know what the effect will be yet. The precautionary principle should not prevent one from taking action but one then needs to check whether that action is merited or appropriate. That is what the monitoring is for.

There are two levels to the issue. The Deputy asked whether individual MPAs or the network should be monitored. Both should be monitored at the same time. There should be a set of objectives for the network as a whole. It must be determined whether the network is delivering on the commitment to conserve and restore a range of specific habitats and features, and assess whether they are measurably improved by the actions of the network. To do that, one needs to know what is going on in the individual MPAs. Both of those perspectives are required.

The Deputy also asked about restoration, which is going to become a big issue for the State to grapple with under the new EU nature restoration law that is coming down the track. I am sure there will be a lot of discussion about exactly how that needs to be done and checked, and so on. Monitoring is required to check whether it is working or not. That is not as straightforward as one might think. It is not just a question of going back to the place that is being restored. One must also look at other places which have not been restored and other places which were never damaged. Nature changes all the time. One never knows if an intervention in one place is causing the change that one sees elsewhere or if the change is coincidental. One needs to be aware of what is going on in the wider environment to determine whether restoration is successful. To do it well requires a well-resourced programme that has clear objectives and is well designed to meet them.

There are a couple of issues that Deputy Ó Broin did not have time to get to. We will come back to them in subsequent rounds of questioning. I note that the committee last week raised the issue around the four-week consultation period with the Department. It said it would look at that. I do not think, in respect of the 2030 targets, that extending the four-week consultation period to eight weeks would be critical. That is a good point.

I thank the professor for being here with us and sharing his expertise. Learning about what is happening in other jurisdictions is fascinating. Well done to him on the recommendations of the 2020 report and how many of them have made it into the legislation we are talking about today.

I find the co-creation element of the discussion fascinating. If we could take that model and operate it everywhere, we would have a more rounded society and a lot of trust in planning processes and decision-making but, unfortunately, we have many constrictions and restrictions. I would be interested in learning a little more about how co-creation works on a practical level. Senator Fitzpatrick asked about international experience and Professor Crowe has examples of that to talk us through at a later date or send on after the meeting. Much of this is about learning from what is working, and what is not working, in other jurisdictions and ensuring we are fine-tuning our approach in a way that is going to achieve the objectives and be as protective as possible. That is why the international element is so critical.

Professor Crowe mentioned in his opening statement that the first step is to establish an ocean environmental policy statement with overarching objectives and targets at a national level. Will he tease that out for me and tell me what it would look like, what those objectives would be, who would be in charge of meeting them and what kind of timeframes would apply? As Professor Crowe has eloquently outlined, there are complexities in respect of comparisons between areas. Direct comparison is never the right approach to examine effects when it comes to nature and the marine. What will the objectives of a policy statement look like? Can Professor Crowe share with us any other information in terms of international experience that we should be taking on board and baking into this process? I also ask him to delve a little deeper into the co-creation side of things to give us an indication as to how, on a practical level, that would work. Does it delay decision-making? It would lead to better decisions but at what cost? How do we ensure it is achieved within the quickest possible timeframe?

Professor Tasman Crowe

The Deputy asked about the ocean environment policy statement. I am not party to the architecture that is envisaged but I would suggest it should strongly reflect the international obligations and commitments we have made. The EU requires member states to protect 30% of land and sea by 2030, of which 10% will have to be strictly protected. I envisage that being a clear objective in such a policy statement.

"Ecologically coherent" is a phrase that is frequently used in respect of networks of marine protected areas, which is what we are talking about at a national level. It would require a process of identifying the features that one wishes to protect, and there needs to be agreement on that at some level. We must consider which species, habitats, ecosystem services and biocultural features we are concerned to conserve. For many of those, there are already clear-cut objective grounds for their inclusion on such a list. They may, for example, already be listed on the International Union for Conservation of Nature red list of threatened species but may not be protected under the habitats or birds directives. The Oslo-Paris, OSPAR, Convention, which is responsible for management of the marine environment in the north-east Atlantic, has a list of threatened species and habitats that has been derived through extensive evaluation of evidence and so on against transparent criteria. Those clearly have a good argument for inclusion. There will be other priorities at a national level that we may wish to adopt, for example, to ensure we are making the best use of our environment in mitigation of climate change.

Carbon sequestration might be a high priority and we may specifically want to conserve habitats that are very effective in carbon sequestration.

On the ecological coherence question, once it is identified what it is we are looking to conserve, it is then a question of asking what the evidence suggests is the minimum amount of that particular kind of habitat or species that needs to be conserved, how big the areas need to be, and how well-connected they need to be for it to be a viable ongoing concern. There are, in a manner of speaking, properties to a network which capture those kinds of aspects. How much replication do we want? Do we want one piece of that habitat or two or three, because we do not want to risk that one piece being destroyed, and if other pieces are destroyed, that will be the only one left, and so on?

To me, it would likely have those kinds of provisions, with targets and clearly stated levels of those kinds of parameters in it. That would guide the process of choosing the protected areas. Is that a reasonable answer to that question?

Yes. I thank Professor Crowe and it explains it a little bit more. Ultimately, as the professor says, that is not his vision but is what he is suggesting would be part of it. I thank him for that because we are here to get different viewpoints and perspectives on this area so that, when it comes to our recommendations, we can be as comprehensive as possible.

Has Professor Crowe anything further to add on the co-creation and the effects of that? We can very much see the positive effects that would have but what are the drawbacks to it and how do we minimise the negatives?

Professor Tasman Crowe

That is a very good question. The concern that it would slow everything down is, perhaps, what is behind things like the four-week consultation period and so on. There are a number of compelling reasons for urgency. We are very much in a biodiversity crisis and we cannot be dragging our heels for too long as things are being driven rapidly downwards. We are also facing an urgent need to ramp up our renewable energy supplies, so we want to be able to make some decisions very quickly. Some decisions can be made very quickly and are quite clear-cut, and we can say there will be ways in which the available evidence can be marshalled quickly, in fact.

I am part of that and am chairing another group that is currently undertaking an exercise to try to do that for the Irish Sea, that is, to garner all of the evidence available, come up with a potential list of features that could be appropriate for protection, go through an analysis process which models where marine protected areas, MPAs, could be or not be, and protect those features. On foot of that, there would be some areas which, if the model were run 100 times, would never come up. Very quickly, you would get an answer that there are certain areas in the Irish Sea that will never be important for conservation so a decision can be made more quickly in those cases. There will be other areas which will probably be bolted on and iron cast and come up every time. These protect some of the most sensitive and valuable features. Those will probably not need that much discussion either. There is a big spread in between, however, where the network could be reconfigured somewhat to move it around particular areas of interest for stakeholders, who could be consulted and with whom that could be discussed, and where a number of configurations of MPAs could be presented and explored with different stakeholders. This would relate to the ones which would present the biggest challenge to them, their industry or their community, and to ones which would be less challenging but would still enable overarching objectives to be met. That would be the kind of process I could envisage.

These areas could be graded or categorised to enable those kinds of decisions to be made more quickly and effectively on the simpler sites where there is less to debate.

Professor Tasman Crowe

Yes, absolutely. There is also a difference between things going on in the nearshore environment which are very complex and which have many different stakeholder interests. It is very important to have very extensive discussions in those spaces. Not many people see or go further offshore, so we are then dealing with a smaller number of industrial-scale stakeholders and it is a different kind of conversation. Again, it could be envisaged that that would happen more quickly.

I know Professor Crowe has given Senator Fitzpatrick this commitment already, but on the international material, I would be very interested to understand a little bit more about what best practice is and to learn about things that have not worked elsewhere and which we should avoid as pitfalls.

Professor Tasman Crowe

Yes, I can do that.

I thank Professor Crowe.

This may be a very obvious question but the area we are talking about is the area we have defined under the Maritime Jurisdiction Act. This is what we describe as our sea area, being seven times the size of our landmass area. Does that put a great deal of pressure on us compared with a country that might have a large landmass but a small sea area in respect of its 30% designations? Will Professor Crowe talk about the contrast between those two and the challenge of trying to do that on such a large scale?

Professor Tasman Crowe

I guess that is politics more than ecology. The EU will be putting pressure on Ireland to designate as much of this area as is required. Approximately 30 by 30 in a European context is for the whole of the European area, and member states which have much larger areas can contribute a great deal more. I hesitate to comment on the politics, together with the pressure that comes with that.

That is fair enough. I just wanted to clarify that.

Professor Tasman Crowe

We have an opportunity, particularly in the offshore area, to designate some substantial pieces of space.

For clarity for people who may not know, how is inshore defined versus offshore in nautical miles?

Professor Tasman Crowe

Different people draw different lines and there has been some recent significant discussion about whether different fishing practices should be allowed or not allowed inside six nautical miles. Twelve nautical miles is another line which is potentially useful to think about in that sense because that is our territorial waters over which we have complete control, except for the people moving through it. Outside of that, to 200 nautical miles, we are a member state within the EU and there is a discussion around the things we do to manage that space, and that is sometimes quite a complicated discussion.

That leads me on to where we were up to quite recently, where we only had 2%, or slightly more than that, of special areas of conservation, SACs, and special protection area, SPA, designations for the most part, which we were calling marine protected areas. We moved then to 8%, where we are at the moment, and we are approaching 10%, but we want to reach this target of 30% by 2030. We often ask who has or what is the best international practice, or with whom should we compare ourselves. Is there an opportunity here for us to say we will be the European leaders on this and put legislation in place which designates this because we have a large sea area? We were on that poor level for a long time but our trajectory is good at the moment. Does Professor Crowe think we can put ourselves in that place to say we are the benchmark?

Professor Tasman Crowe

I think we can do that, absolutely, and I modified my opening statement a little bit to reflect that as the written statement was only put together a couple of days ago. We have the capacity to bring that agility and flexibility to the situation and to take a leading role in international best practice. As I said, I was in Brussels last week at an EU project meeting which had members there from the International Union for Conservation of Nature, IUCN, from the Oslo and Paris Conventions organisations, OSPAR, from the Helsinki Commission, HELCOM, and from leading universities. Already, we were tabling some of the ideas that are there in that advisory group report and they were very well-received by that group as ways to look at and carry forward this process. We should not be thinking of just copying others but taking a lead.

There is certainly a mixture of levels of commitment to that kind of co-management and co-creation side of things, but it was very much taken as read around that table of leading thinkers, practitioners and protectors that that was what is done and that it would not be conceived of to go forward with an MPA process where there was not a good level of stakeholder involvement. Obviously, our thinking around exactly how to do that is evolving and emerging. There are people who have expertise in what works well and what does not. We have some very good experts in this country with some very good experience doing that, so we are in a position to establish innovative practices that others will follow.

On the advisory group, at today's meeting we intended to invite Professor Crowe, obviously, but also to invite what I would loosely classify as user groups, such as fishers and commercial operators as represented by Wind Energy Ireland. Unfortunately, none of those was able to attend today. In the work that was done in the stakeholder engagement and the advisory group, which was considerable, I understand, were all of those groups, including recreation users, part of it? Did the feedback Professor Crowe got from that feed into the report? Will he outline the main concerns of the fishers and the commercial operators?

Professor Tasman Crowe

I will.

I do not want him to speak for them.

Professor Tasman Crowe

Sure.

I just want to ensure they were listened to.

Professor Tasman Crowe

I will take a slightly roundabout route to get there, if that is okay. That consultation ended up working extremely well and much better than we thought it would. Owing to the arrival of Covid, we were eventually forced to go online. We had envisaged face-to-face workshops. We established a model of small groups of nine people at a time with a facilitator, who was very good at creating a respectful and relaxed environment. We made sure those groups were mixed. We had people from different perspectives, such as NGOs, fishery organisations, recreational organisations and so on around the same table. There was a structured approach, which required everybody to speak into that space and people became comfortable speaking into that space.

The first question we asked was, "What would your vision be for Ireland's marine environment?" Everybody gave very similar responses that they wanted to see clean healthy seas providing a foundation for sustainable and productive industries. There was general agreement that that was what we wanted to get to. What varied, of course, was the degree to which people would seek to restrict activity in particular areas - the kind of sustainable use thought process. Probably the biggest concern was that voices would be ignored and that livelihoods would be disrespected. There was a sense that we should be drawing on the considerable knowledge, experience and commitment to stewardship in the fishing community and then developing the plans. Everyone agreed with the principle that everyone should have a voice at that table.

There was also recognition that compromise would be a requirement. In some situations the decision would swing more strongly towards restrictive measures and in others it would swing more loosely. Obviously, the concern is that lines would be drawn on a map with no fishing allowed in particular areas and that would be that. We need to be very careful not to go into that space. There must be some discussion and reasoned argument. It was suggested that compensation and facilitation of alternative livelihoods should be considered in those kinds of situations. We need an understanding of the constraints under which the fishing community operates. There can be sound ecological reasons for doing a certain thing but it could be done a bit differently and still enable fishing to be cost effective.

Fishing can be a difficult and uncertain job much of the time. I can understand what might be perceived as further barriers or further difficulties in what is already a difficult scenario.

Professor Tasman Crowe

Absolutely.

It was very broad. All voices were listened to and heard. Returning to the point Deputy Higgins made, perhaps Professor Crowe would come back to us with the issues he raised. I know he spoke about four weeks in head 9. If there are other things that stick out in the general scheme about where we could improve public consultation and have a proper public consultation, it would be helpful for us.

I have only 40 seconds left and it would probably be difficult for Professor Crowe to answer in that time. I am interested in the MPAs for carbon sequestration as well. We obviously have a forestry challenge and land-use challenge in the terrestrial environment. There is also great potential in the marine area for carbon sequestration. We might come back to that afterwards because I need to be as strict with my time as I was with everybody else's.

I welcome Professor Crowe. I have read a bit about him and clearly he has considerable experience in this. I know he was chair of the expert advisory group whose report was very interesting. I looked at the 60 recommendations and I will touch on them in a few moments. We read the submission he made to the committee and I wish to take up some of the issues. At point 3 he stated that, of the key provisions, the single most important is the stakeholder consultation. He places strong emphasis on that point. In some of the published work from the advisory group, every emphasis on consultation is positive. I am delighted to hear Professor Crowe say that also. The people I know who were involved in this said it was a very meaningful engagement. It is about a broad group of consultees and there is that word "flexibility". However, flexibility only goes to a certain point. It then breaks and does not do what it is meant to do. We need to be careful when we use words such as flexibility and we are trying to accommodate everyone. We simply cannot accommodate everyone.

Touching on what the Cathaoirleach already said, are there particular areas of international best practice we should be following? I might ask all my questions first and Professor Crowe might take a note of them and then answer them if he can. At point 8 in his submission, he refers to the transboundary considerations. He rightly said that maritime life does not respect international boundaries or waters. We need to have some joined-up thinking with our neighbours. While we all know what he means, regarding our immediate neighbours, is there something of particular concern across the border, within the United Kingdom or whatever? Our nearest neighbour, including the islands around it, form an important issue. Are there any specific issues Professor Crowe wants to bring to the attention of the committee?

Point 3 relates to the principles enshrined in the Bill forming the basis for the group's recommendations. We have heard a lot about the citizens' assembly on biodiversity in recent days. Does anything there stand out that we have missed? The legislation was clearly published before the group had completed its work.

The MPA advisory group, which Professor Crowe chaired, started in 2019. As he said, the purpose of the review was to deal with the scientific, economic, legal and social aspects of expanding the network of MPAs. There were 60 recommendations and some of them have clearly been included. We have moved on from some of it. Does Professor Crowe feel any are not adequately covered in the proposed legislation? Without overanalysing it, as the former chair of the expert advisory group which made 60 recommendations, is he disappointed at any specific ones not included?

I want to talk about engagement on the pillars, particularly the environmental pillar and the Aarhus Convention. We know the significance of the Aarhus Convention in terms of public participation in decision-making and access to environmental matters. It is very important and is an issue that keeps coming up at this and other committees. How does this proposed legislation square up with our obligations under the Aarhus Convention?

Professor Tasman Crowe

Those are very good questions. I will start with the transboundary considerations. I do not have a specific example in mind. In the work we are doing, we are giving some consideration to the Irish Sea, for example. If the concern is to conserve a particular species or habitat and it is either already very well provided for in the western Irish Sea or currently not at all well provided for in the western Irish Sea, that should influence our thinking about what we do in our jurisdiction. In many cases in those habitats or species directly straddle the political border but are biologically distinct. We cannot think that is all taken care of now simply because there is a marine conservation zone on the other side of the border. It still comes down to exactly what measures are being taken within that protected area on the other side of the border.

Again, it is not a quick process. It is a process of a discussion and dialogue that is important, and I think that is evident.

The other way in which we need to think in terms of trans-boundary considerations is that we are part of OSPAR and we are part of Europe. Our SACs and SPAs are intended to contribute to the Natura 2000 network, which is supposed to have network properties as a whole. The OSPAR example is perhaps a better one because clearly the intention is to protect the species, some of which have been identified, across their whole range. If mobile species have been well protected in one place, that is not going to help at all if they are not being well protected when they move into another jurisdiction. What we do is not enough sometimes. We have had the strictest protections in our jurisdiction but they swim out of our territory and they are being clobbered next door. There needs to be strategic thinking about how you conserve species and habitats across their range. Those are the two senses in which we need to think about that.

On the Citizens' Assembly, I was involved with its expert advisory group so I was involved in all of the sessions. I gave some talks and was involved in panel discussions. To me, that is one of the areas in which Ireland is a world leader, which is inspiring and encouraging. It worked extremely well through very effective facilitators. It also underlined for me again the value of stakeholder participation and engagement. A lot of ideas and perspectives are shared. People come away happy, and sometimes unhappy, but there is a general sense that it is worthwhile to talk things through. I think a lot of great thoughts and ideas flowed from the assembly, which is an effective approach.

On the Bill and the noticeable gaps regarding the recommendations of the advisory group, I thought it was just the stakeholder engagement side that did not come out loud and clear. My sense is that ad hoc groups are provided for. There is one place in which it is specified of which I made a note. There is an explanatory note in head 16, which indicates that "the ad-hoc working groups will enable the participation of different stakeholders". The ad hoc groups are mentioned much earlier under heads 5, 3 and 8(4). They relate to different steps in the process. They are all places where I would think it is very important to get that stakeholder view but it is not explicitly stated. If I were a stakeholder reading this general scheme, I would not have seen my name mentioned so there needs to be some wording that says, for example, "including ad-hoc groups" or "including stakeholders."

Can Professor Crowe suggest wording for the committee to consider?

Professor Tasman Crowe

Yes, and I have made some notes.

I also asked about open access and the Aarhus Convention.

Professor Tasman Crowe

The Senator mentioned the environmental pillar in particular.

Professor Tasman Crowe

Head 10(4) allows objections to be raised after publication by selective groups which are individually notified. It struck me that it is a list of groups or individuals with a specific economic interest in the area that is potentially going to be designated. Groups like NGOs, community groups and recreational users are bracketed with the period of general public consultation, which is four weeks, whereas under head 10(4) there are 12 weeks available for input. The latter period is necessary for NGOs to formulate a response.

Professor Tasman Crowe

NGOs are incredibly busy and substantially consist of voluntary people.

Professor Tasman Crowe

I agree with the Senator that the principle of transparency is critical. I really think there must be transparency throughout the process.

The third paragraph of Professor Crowe's opening statement says, "A key provision of the Bill, perhaps the single most important one ... is for stakeholder consultation and participation throughout the process," and he went on to explain the importance of co-creation. That line almost sounds like he feels that the Bill allows for lots of co-creation and stakeholder participation but his comment a few moments ago seemed to suggest that co-creation and stakeholder participation are a key weakness of the Bill. I ask him to clarify.

Professor Tasman Crowe

As I see it, the Bill allows for it but does not demand it. The word "may", rather than the word "shall", is used in terms of the ad hoc groups. The ad hoc groups are not specified as being stakeholders so, to me, the Bill does need to become more transparent. I guess I read it with a more optimistic view the first time and I had two days to write my opening statement. When I was preparing for this meeting, I looked at the Bill with a more microscopic lens and I am not happy that the word "stakeholder" does not explicitly appear. When I read the Bill for the first time, I could see that there was an opportunity but, to me, it needs to be strengthened into a requirement. It needs to be more explicit that stakeholders are intended. The language suggests that those ad hoc groups could just be other experts. To me, the Bill needs to have a more explicit mention of stakeholders and what kind of stakeholder groups may have an input in the process.

The professor's input will be very useful to the committee when we compile our pre-legislative report because we need to specifically consider the heads and see if there are particular areas that need to be tidied up.

Head 7 concerns the identification of potential marine protected areas. My reading of head 7 is that it is a fairly top-down process - the Minister does it and there are four weeks. I am sure we all agree that four weeks is not an acceptable amount of time for the public consultation process. I did not get a sense from reading head 7 that the process was anything remotely close to co-creation. Have I got that wrong or am I not being optimistic enough?

Professor Tasman Crowe

No, co-creation does not jump off the page. It goes back to those earlier sections which seem to establish an expert advisory group and the ad hoc groups. There is clear specification that the ad hoc groups should involve stakeholders and then there is more mention of the ad hoc groups in that process. I think it would do that but at the moment it is not very clear. I agree with the Deputy that it looks like a top-down process. I suggest that the idea of public consultation, rather than engagement and participation, creates a gap.

I thank Professor Crowe for the clarification. Earlier he made the point very well about how successful co-creation can be. He gave really good examples of marine areas. We all want to see a reduction in conflict and as much conservation as possible. Often the best way to get conservation is through practical measures on which everyone can agree because enforcement can only take you so far. If you can get buy-in, there will be a much better outcome for the marine environment. Most of the time in any of these situations, you can get buy-in if the effort is put in. Obviously there will always be some bad faith actors and you must have the systems to deal with that. Many people will operate in good faith if they are included. I think Professor Crowe has made some important points.

Like the Chair, I want to mention the importance of carbon sequestration, which Professor Crowe mentioned in his opening statement. Last week, we emphasised to the Department the importance of carbon-rich habitats, for example, and how they are not mentioned in the Bill. Just because something is not mentioned in the Bill does not mean it cannot happen. Given the importance of carbon-rich habitats, and carbon sequestration, should it be more explicit in the Bill? Does Professor Crowe have a view on the matter? Is it okay that it is not mentioned?

Professor Tasman Crowe

I am not sure. I guess it depends a little bit on the machinations behind the scene subsequent to the Act being put together.

Technically, it is captured by the mention of "ecosystem services", and particularly the kind of regulating services. It does get us there under that umbrella but I believe there is an argument for making it explicit that one of the purposes of the protected area network should be to help us to grapple with climate change. Carbon sequestration is one way in which it does that, which is part of mitigation, but there is also the sense in which habitats provide us with some adaptation. They help to protect our coastlines and those kinds of salt marsh habitats and seagrass habitats that are very good for carbon sequestration. They also reduce the impact of storms and storm surges on the coastal environment.

One could envisage a stronger statement about the interconnection between protected areas and climate change. There are some statements about the need to adapt the protected area network in the face of climate change, which I believe is important as well. It is increasingly recognised that although one would designate an area in one place now, climate change is such that the environment there is shifting and the species are moving elsewhere. The provision for a review to be able to revisit and change the designations is important.

I do not know enough about the political process to know how to answer the Deputy's question directly other than to say that even though it is technically covered under "ecosystem services", it could be more explicitly specified. People would see value in having marine protected areas connected to climate change, which they very much are.

I thank Professor Crowe for that. I want to ask about the second point in the opening statement, which he made very well, which is that the existence of an MPA does not mean other activities cannot happen. He said that in some cases there may be grounds for quite heavily protected areas in the EU biodiversity strategy, and for seeking that 10% of the maritime area would be heavily protected. Does Professor Crowe have a view on the fact that this is not referenced in the Bill? Should it be referenced in the Bill or does a discussion need to start? Obviously, we are making a lot of progress by having this legislation and by having MPAs but is this something that needs to start being looked at or discussed also? What are his thoughts on that? Obviously it is a more controversial area.

Professor Tasman Crowe

Again, there is politics in that as well. Whatever we have committed to under European Union legislation flows from the biodiversity strategy. If that becomes something that is adopted as policy, then that flows from it. I do not believe it needs to be reflected in the Bill. There are statements there about our international obligations, which would shape that ocean environment policy statement. These are matters for the political process of developing that policy statement, which needs to recognise and reflect those kinds of obligations in the Irish context. The question of exactly how much of that kind of provision one would set out to make would need to be carefully thought through. There are arguments to be made. In all likelihood, there will be some areas that have very fragile habitats and species in them. If we are serious about conserving those habitats and species, they should be quite strongly protected. I believe there will be strong arguments for some areas to be well protected. There is even some value in establishing some areas as essentially reference conditions, to say that this is what our environment could be like under these circumstances. If we lose some particularly rare features, the only example in Irish waters will be lost. Those areas may merit very strong protections. There will be cases where that is merited on scientific and conservation grounds. There will also be a process that decides exactly what protections should be afforded to those areas.

Can Professor Crowe give us any sense of the timeframe we may be looking at for identifying some of the areas that need heavier levels of protection and for creating that baseline? Where are we on that?

Professor Tasman Crowe

I am not sure about the whole of the maritime area in that regard. I am plucking some numbers out of the air a little bit. I believe there is talk about the process being completed within a year of the Bill being enacted. It is not unreasonable that the science side of it, presenting a case for particular areas being strongly protected, could be done in that kind of timeframe. The important other side of it is the stakeholder engagement side. Decisions will have to be made on exactly what can and cannot be done without major impacts on people's livelihoods. There needs to be some process of discussion that is additional to the science.

Is the information already there on some of those areas that need to be much more heavily protected?

Professor Tasman Crowe

I do not have it to hand but I am sure there will be people who can point to those kinds of areas. I am involved in a process on the Irish Sea with a four-month deadline. At the end of that process we may well have identified some areas that would meet those criteria. If the Deputy were to ask again at the end of April, there may be some more specific answers for a segment of the Irish Sea. I am referring to maritime territories and the Irish Sea is part of it. To do that properly for other parts of the maritime territory will take longer again.

I thank Professor Crowe.

A point was raised about stakeholder engagement and the identification or designation. They are two different processes and possibly would have different stakeholders, some of whom might be more concerned about the designation than they are about the identification. Perhaps this is something we could look at.

Professor Tasman Crowe

I agree. There are probably several points at which one would want to take on board a stakeholder view, one of which would be the identification process. The provision in the Bill for stakeholders - essentially anybody - to propose to identify a potential MPA is a valuable part of the legislation. Then there is the provision for a kind of filtering process whereby we consider which of these we really want to stand over and what the regulations within them will be. That has to come. Then we must ask what the objectives will be and what the regulations within them will be. This comes between the proposed potential identification and the designation. That conversation is critical. Those conversations are a pivotal part in the process.

I thank Professor Crowe. Some of the areas in the Bill are technical. I am interested in the idea of public consultation, which was previously referred to. Sometimes consultation can have a really positive impact on a process. Sometimes it can distract from what the process is really about. In the context of best practice internationally, is Professor Crowe aware of types of consultation or any groups that have had a particularly beneficial impact in a consultation process?

Professor Tasman Crowe

I have undertaken to try to bring together some written examples to share with the committee. I am not sure of the timeline on that but I will do the best I can with whatever time is available. The answer is "Yes"; there are many examples of the ways in which consultation is almost the minimum level of engagement. Then there is engagement as the next level, where people are more engaged than just being asked for their view and it being taken away to somewhere else. Engagement gets people around the table discussing things. Participation is really where everybody is around the table making the decisions. We can envisage different levels of engagement on that hierarchy at different stages in the process.

What we do not want is the box being ticked by just having the advertisement in the paper.

Professor Tasman Crowe

Yes, exactly. To me that is really the bare minimum. It does not give a sense of engagement and ownership. People are not around the table talking.

By the same token, it is an incredibly technical and complicated issue. It can be hard sometimes to engage members of the public who are busy with their normal lives.

Professor Tasman Crowe

It can, and to me that is really an important point. We have to recognise that and make it easier for people to engage with the process. We should take that as a challenge we need to overcome to make sure the voices that should be heard are heard in the process. That costs resources and time. One reason it has not been well done in the past is that the resourcing just was not there. It costs a lot of people's time and effort to design how to do it well and to actually do it. That is something to which we should give careful consideration.

It is also part of a broader education process about our biodiversity and climate resources. The Minister will have the opportunity to have expert advice. It could be interesting to see how the expertise that is available to the Minister might also be available in the consultation phase-----

Professor Tasman Crowe

Absolutely.

-----or might be connected because, first of all, we get a continuance of policy information. It would also be a better use of a resource that will already be there.

Professor Crowe may have been asked this question already, but in terms of the process of the availability of these experts, we find it increasingly difficult to get people to serve in these types of public roles or that by nature of the issue, they might be involved in other areas of their careers and may not have the time or resources. Does Professor Crowe see that as a challenge? Does he believe we have an ample number of people at the right level who would be available?

Professor Tasman Crowe

I do; I know from personal experience. The Deputy may have missed it but we were asked at pretty short notice to undertake an ecological sensitivity analysis of the Irish Sea-----

Professor Tasman Crowe

-----to feed into the subsequent process of decision-making. Everybody I spoke to immediately started dropping other things to concentrate on this because they see it as the most important way they can commit their time. I do not, therefore, envisage that being a problem. It is a longer-term commitment than a four-month, drop-everything, work-like-crazy scenario to do as good a job as one can in the time available.

It may also preclude people from being engaged in certain commercial practises or other resources because there might be conflicts of interest and so on.

Professor Tasman Crowe

That generally has not proven to be a challenge for people in my experience.

Okay. That was with regard to heads 9 and 10 with regard to the consultation and head 5 in respect of the expert group.

The other area in which I had an interest was head 12 and the idea of a temporary marine protected area, MPA, as a result of an emergency. The example given in the briefing was the idea of a significant oil leak or something along those lines. I wonder whether two years is a sufficient period. I would imagine the impact of that type of incident has a much longer impact than two years. Should that be closer to five years? If the idea is for the Minister to be able to temporarily designate those MPAs, we would want to have controls in place. We do not want a Minister going rogue either. Does Professor Crowe have any views on that?

Professor Tasman Crowe

I looked at that quite closely as well. It is two years, but with a provision to allow for another two years, which seemed to me to be a reasonably sensible timeframe for that.

The question is, though, whether two years is ever going to be sufficient.

Professor Tasman Crowe

For some things, yes, it might be. It struck me that one other kind of situation where it could be applied is if a particular upsurge of an invasive species is threatening a native habitat.

I was thinking about that too.

Professor Tasman Crowe

An intensive campaign could be undertaken in two years to try to rectify that, which could take it a significant way down the track with the option to have another two years. That would get us were we want to be.

Professor Tasman Crowe

I can understand why it might have been held at two years rather than being longer. It is a non-trivial matter It is significant thing to be able to do at short notice.

The last point is bigger; I do not expect Professor Crowe to have an answer. We are starting now to harness the resources that are available to us in terms of wind energy and offshore wind energy. Inevitable, when human activity is brought into a natural environment, it causes disruption. We will never mitigate that completely. Yet, there are hugely positive benefits of offshore wind and how it will allow human activity not to cause an impact.

We are probably going to have to build in some level of compromise in terms of the impact we have on a marine area. That will be a challenge for many people but it is a bigger challenge we have to grasp. We will inevitably have to discommode or impact the balance that exists in these areas because the alternative is to have a far greater imbalance on land and elsewhere.

Professor Tasman Crowe

I completely agree. That is exactly the kind of dialogue that needs to take place on where those compromises lie. There is one area in which it is addressed, and the Deputy will perhaps have heard the phrase other effective area-based conservation measures, OECMs.

Professor Tasman Crowe

Wind farms potentially fall into that category where they provide some incidental benefit to some aspects of biodiversity. This is a hotly-debated concept and topic internationally. It is just taking shape now.

One of the things we will probably see is that people who were previously on the same side on these issues may actually have very different views on them. That is something we have to reflect both in the consultation and expert panel and in the broader debate on the subject. I thank Professor Crowe for being with us today.

Professor Tasman Crowe

I thank the Deputy.

I thank Deputy McAuliffe. Deputy Ó Broin wishes to come back in. To be helpful in terms of timelines, we have our final meeting on this on Thursday and we will be aiming for completion of our pre-legislative scrutiny report by 21 February. If Professor Crowe were to make suggestions, it would be helpful to get them a couple of days before the deadline. We would appreciate whatever he could do. I thank him for that.

I thank Professor Crowe very much. It has been a really helpful session. I have a few follow-up questions. Head 6(4) states "the Minister, shall to the extent possible and appropriate aim to designate up to 10% of the maritime area as Marine Protected Areas as soon as practicable after commencement of this Act and up to 30% of the maritime area as Marine Protected Areas by 2030". When representatives from the Department appeared before the committee, a number of us said that language is a bit soft, first, because we were meant to have 10% designated by 2020. Irrespective of the full legalities of the 30% by 2030, a really firm commitment in the legislation would be preferable. Is that a view Professor Crowe would share? Does he think the language is a problem?

I am conscious of the fact that the biodiversity strategy may, obviously, move from being a strategy into something much firmer in terms of legislation. Given that is the likely direction of travel, would it be better to have the strongest possible commitment in the legislation at this stage from Professor Crowe's point of view?

I am sorry; I will also ask a question. The phrase "up to 30%" to me reads that we can do 30%, but no more. Could we have 35%?

Professor Tasman Crowe

I had not spotted that. I completely agree; that is certainly what it implies. There is now such a body of international evidence that suggests 30% is where we need to be. In fact, there is evidence that we should be going further. One of the big conclusions of the new UN Convention on Biological Diversity, CBD, global biodiversity framework is that everyone should be aiming for 30% by 2030. That was long debated and discussed and agreement was eventually reached. I agree that it should be a firmer phrasing. I had not really spotted those two little words "up to".

It is always the small phrases in the legislation that are important. In Professor Crowe's responses to Deputy Cian O'Callaghan, the issue arose about how explicit our domestic legislation needs to be versus either current or emerging legal requirements under EU law or international obligations. Given that we spent a fair amount of time in this committee dealing with issues of EU enforcement actions against the State on a whole variety of environmental legislation in particular and failure to transcribe or impose, in Professor Crowe's view would it be helpful that the legislation should be as explicit as possible? Even though things might be required under international or European law, the more explicit the legislation is here, then the greater clarity everybody has in terms of what this legislation is meant to achieve.

Does he think that would be helpful or does he think if the international requirements are strong enough we should be okay on the day?

Professor Tasman Crowe

That is a really good question. I saw the phrasing of head 6, which is about the international requirements, and I note head 6(3) lists the current international laws and treaties, but does not say "including". I think there is something a little later that says that other policy frameworks and instruments should also influence the ocean policy statement.

It is very much a changing field and the balance between flexibility and specificity is a real challenge. As things are changing in the way we think and approach marine protected areas, I think some provision for that review and adaptation in how we move forward makes sense. My understanding - I state again that I am not a political scientist - is that it is a pretty big process to change legislation, as such, and there may never be another opportunity to do that, or not for ten, 20 or 30 years, so I would lean towards building in some flexibility to enable approaches to change as it becomes evident that they need to change because they are just not working.

I agree with the Deputy about the clarity. Reading this as a citizen, one would want a sense of some of the harder, more serious points that are perhaps hidden behind the scenes. There does seem to be quite a lot of ministerial power and discretion in this. It struck me that there are lots of "may" phrases rather than "shall" phrases.

That is the bane of our lives in this committee but that is another day's craic. To go back to the timelines, Professor Crowe's description of them is helpful in terms of the recommendations for the designations and the evidence base and science within a year. Realistically speaking, we are looking at two to three years plus, in terms of the designation, especially if some prove controversial to the stakeholders. Given that we are going to have significant advances in terms of the consents that have already been provided and all 20 of the planning applications for offshore wind are going to be on the east coast in the first place, is there a strong argument or is it Professor Crowe's understanding that the designation process will deal with those areas where there could be the greatest changes, for example, because of large-scale offshore wind? Does he think that is something we should be aspiring to do so that we try to make sure we get into either those areas that need the greatest level of protection, that have the greatest level of biodiversity loss to date or that could be at risk because of changes elsewhere in the economy and critical infrastructure the Government is pursuing through other strategies, some of which are centrally related to climate change as well?

Professor Tasman Crowe

I do think there should be some priority given. Wind farms are a classic situation where they are also to the benefit of the environment in other ways, so it is important that we do look strategically at where we need to make decisions most quickly and try to fast-track them, but still to respect the process. We do not want to fast-track them to the point where it becomes a completely top-down process and the voices that need to be heard are not heard.

Perhaps the language is not to fast-track but to prioritise.

Professor Tasman Crowe

Yes, prioritise.

The process must be done first. That relates to another comment Professor Crowe made earlier, which I thought was interesting, about some of the offshore activity, because it is much further away and there is a smaller number of actors. In one sense, that might make the process a little bit easier because there will be fewer people at the table. However, that also means the potential for things going wrong, either accidentally or for other reasons, could be greater. The further away things are and the deeper in the sea they are, the more difficult it is for a wider range of interests. How do we best protect that? This relates somewhat to the previous question, which is that some of it is offshore. Universally, in this committee when we have been raising these issues, we all want the maximum level of renewable offshore energy and we want the maximum possible protection for marine biodiversity and restoration of lost biodiversity. The point is about how we negotiate that. In terms of offshore, is Professor Crowe aware of practice here in Ireland or internationally where they have got some of that right or where they have got some of it wrong and we can learn from their mistakes?

Professor Tasman Crowe

I do not have examples off the top of my head but I can try to look into that as part of the submission that I do. Is Deputy Ó Broin talking about decisions that have been made in the offshore space that have been apparently simple but have turned out to be less so and there have been negative consequences for that? I can look into that and see if there are examples. There is always that potential.

I have reached my final question. A lot of this is going to come down to resourcing. Professor Crowe made very clear that the governance aspect of it is not his area of expertise but a lot of the science is. Data are being collected by various academic institutions, the Marine Institute etc. From what he knows is out there, even in the areas in which he is not an expert, but based on his read of the scientific field and the data, what level of resources are we going to need? I refer to Professor Crowe's optimistic reading of the Bill at the start. He said it is great because it will allow this, that and the other. However, there is a fair gap to go between the baseline of our data and where the professionals such as Professor Crowe working in those areas are today and where, ideally, we would like to be to have the most robust evidence base to underpin the designation process and the stakeholder engagement. Are there agencies or third parties such as universities that could do with additional resourcing? I will not ask him to put figures on it but who needs more for us to get to where we need to from the commencement of the legislation to the beginning of the stakeholder engagement?

Professor Tasman Crowe

That is an interesting question. I do not have a glib answer to it but it would be a question to ask perhaps of the expert advisory group when it is formulated. It is important to talk about the resourcing because it is non-trivial to do this well and it does need resourcing. In the group I am working with now, it is quickly emerging that there are very substantial data gaps for lots of species and habitats for the Irish Sea and that we are going to have to do what we can with what is there, which will not be ideal. By the end of April we will be making recommendations about which data gaps most urgently need filling. It is a sort of targeted process. We need to put the work into figuring out where the data gaps are before figuring out how best to fill them. In many cases it is basic data on where things are that is going to be-----

And not just one-off data but recurring data because of the monitoring.

Professor Tasman Crowe

Yes, absolutely. Things change. There are techniques. It can be done more cost-effectively and more quickly and efficiently now than was possible 20 years ago. It will be possible to collect a lot of that information. The commitment to rigorous detailed monitoring down the line will be very important to help identify other gaps and changes that need to happen in the future.

For those of us who would not know the field of actors in terms of the gathering of that data and distilling it, are we talking about the Marine Institute or a number of universities? Is there a network already in place of all of the different locations for that scientific expertise?

Professor Tasman Crowe

There are: all of the above. The Marine Institute does collect a lot of data and it also does a great job of collating information. We are working directly with the Marine Institute on this current project to bring all of the data that are currently available. They are being archived, managed and curated by a team in the Marine Institute and it is making them available to us very efficiently and effectively.

There are also academic researchers who would be better placed to collect some of the information around species and systems on which they have more expert knowledge. There are efforts to bring together networks of people to share resources, infrastructure, effort and expertise. The All-Island Climate and Biodiversity Research Network, AICBRN, has been gaining momentum over the past two or three years. That is the one at a national level which seeks to bring together all of the expertise and develop ways of co-operating, sharing infrastructure and so on to do these kinds of tasks. That would be a place to go.

I have a short supplementary question on that. We talk about marine life not operating within state boundaries.

Is that just within the State or is it all-Ireland? Is there a particular kind of relationship with counterparts in the North given their immediate proximity to us, let alone the ones outside of our territorial waters and seas?

Professor Tasman Crowe

Yes, there definitely needs to be a discussion across the whole island.

Is that happening already?

Professor Tasman Crowe

It is. That climate and biodiversity research is very explicitly all-island and it has been well managed to ensure that the voices from both jurisdictions are contributing equally to the to the discussion.

Does the Deputy wish to expand on his question on existing authorisations? I do not think we covered that entirely. I have one more question to ask then.

I have two questions to ask in that case. Until we see the final text of the legislation this is just a general summary but the key line was in head 14(5)(a) and states, "a public authority may grant an application for an authorised activity". That's obviously something which is licensed prior to the introduction of the marine protected area, which does not comply with the conservation objectives in the designation or where the public authority considers that there are competitive reasons of overriding public interest exist, including social or economic reasons, requiring the authorisation of the activity or no reasonable alternative solution exists. One of the concerns some of us have with this is on who gets to decide that and against what set of criteria. These are big calls and we had this with the water extraction legislation, unfortunately, because the legislation finally was put in operation for a short time. We have very large water extractors that have been operating for a very long time. The idea that they may lose licences and jobs may be lost etc. was given as one of the examples of an overriding public interest. From the scientific point of view, to leave the politics aside, how does one make those calls? What is the best way, from an evidence-based perspective, to try to work it out because Professor Crowe talked about compromise and trade offs? That is essentially the legislative provision for this. What are the professor's thoughts on this? We have spent a lot of time talking about the future. We do have marine protected areas, albeit not enough of them. From Professor Crowe's knowledge to date, what learning can we take from what we have got so far? What have we been doing well and what have we been doing poorly? What can we learn as we embark on this new process in order that we do not simply forget what we have been doing up to date but can incorporate that learning good, bad and indifferent, into what we do in the future?

Professor Tasman Crowe

I will address the last question first. It is a tricky space. We have special areas of conservation, SACs, and special protection areas, SPAs under the European directives. My sense is they landed very badly with the communities involved and that is a sad thing. That was a consequence of the under-resourcing of the National Parks and Wildlife Service. It did not have the resourcing. There is provision in those directives for some stakeholder consultation but my sense was that there was not the time and money to do that properly. They have also been criticized because the conservation objectives and the management plans have been very slow to materialise. Many people who are invested in seeing them work are very distressed to see that people are continuing to do things that should not be done in them. There is no comeback for those people. What came out quite strongly in our stakeholder consultations for this different process was that the regulation and enforcement piece was going to be very useful. The stakeholder engagement, enforcement and communication pieces were important elements we needed to rectify. Many people are not aware of where those special areas of conservation and special protection areas are and they are not sure what the rules ought to be when they are in them. Those three things are very important, namely, engagement in the process, communication about what is there and why it is being protected and how it is being protected. People wanted simple rules. Skippers of fishing boats wanted to be able to know what they could and could not do as they move through the waters with different kinds of designations. People wanted there to be a meaningful enforcement that would really follow up on transgressions, which serve no one well. If the people are investing in and trying to protect the environment, they are really not happy to see one person getting away with murder, shall we say, in that space. Those, to me, were the big lessons that came to us through the stakeholder engagement process.

In our last meeting with the Department, we asked for them to verbalise the enforcement agencies. I was more confused after they were verbalised than before because there was really a large number of them. That was before we got into the designation of the management authorities. That is one area of concern. I know it is not the professor's area of expertise but if the committee could be pointed in the direction of somebody or something that has something interesting to say on that, we can then have a look at it.

Professor Tasman Crowe

I will give a couple of names to refer to. It was also in my notes that the phrase "management authorities" appears but it is never really clearly defined. The Minister is charged with identifying them. I was not sure at all what the management authorities were, whether they were existing bodies that have responsibility for different activities in the environment or whether it was envisaged that there would be a new management authority for marine protected areas themselves.

The answer we got from the officials is while they might be existing bodies, these might be new functions to existing bodies. All of the existing bodies that already had a licensing and enforcement responsibility would continue to have that as well. I know it is a very naive question but we asked who someone should call if they saw something on the seashore that was not compliant with a conservation objective. There was a long list for the various kinds of non-compliance. If your enforcement structure is so complex, it becomes problematic.

Professor Tasman Crowe

It is tricky. That struck me as well. Even in our current situation, I have had these conversations with people who asked exactly that question as to who do they call. Some people have tried calling several different numbers and have got various different answers. The idea of a kind of biodiversity hotline would not be too far wide of the mark, that there is someone at the end of the line who knows how to connect a person depending on what the concern is. We are faced with the challenge that there is a diversity of interests in biodiversity and the environment. Those interests and authorities that reside in different Departments are not easily dislodged or undermined and reasonably so, I suppose. The joined-up thinking piece is a real challenge. Everyone would like to see a more coherent, clear-cut and transparent process for driving and making decisions in this space but realistically, it is quite a difficult thing to make happen. That aspiration has come up in every forum that I have ever been involved with. I can see it is a challenge so I agree it is an area to try to work on. I read through that with some care as well and it looks like a fix for that sort of situation.

What are Professor Crowe's thoughts on head 14(5) and that trade-off? The legislation cannot be overly prescriptive for all of the reasons he outlined. However, the legislation should at least try to set out some framework within which those types of decisions could be made because they could be very big decisions. They could have very significant consequences either for marine biodiversity or for what is permissible in the sea and how that impacts on renewable targets or inshore fishing communities.

Professor Tasman Crowe

We are going through a process now in this in this mini-project of what is called a sensitivity analysis. In this, we are systematically reviewing all the available evidence that is published and potentially some of the evidence that is not published for each of the features one might wish to conserve. This allows us to look at what knowledge we have of how they are affected by different kinds of activities and the pressures that are associated with them and how quickly they bounce back.

There are some internationally used frameworks for that and we are using one of those frameworks where, based on the evidence that we get, we score whether they have a low, high or medium resistance to a given pressure. For example, given the introduction of nutrients into the water, is this a species that does not notice that at all or is completely disrupted by it, and how quickly could it bounce back if that pressure was removed? The combination of those two things gives us their sensitivity.

We can also score our confidence in that assessment based on the nature of the evidence. We look at how applicable the evidence is to the Irish context, the quality of the evidence and how well all of the different studies agree or disagree, and that gives us a measure of confidence in that assessment. We can then produce a summary table that says that this activity in this place, for these species and habitats, would be extremely detrimental, and we have complete confidence in that conclusion. On the other hand, it could say that it would only be moderately detrimental or that we are not quite sure.

We can stand over that. It is a completely transparent process and everything we did to reach that conclusion is documented, logged and recorded, and anyone can look at it and challenge it. We could set thresholds within a framework like that and say that, clearly, the evidence suggests that this activity is a damaging activity for this feature in this context, and it should be prevented. That is not the same as making the decision but there is a basis there for the decision to be made.

Let me push it one step further. That transparent scientific exercise then identifies an area that clearly requires a high level of conservation activity, yet somebody somewhere may then say that is all very well, but there are imperative reasons of overriding public interest that require us to disregard that. That is the bit that, legislatively, is going to be quite tricky, especially in the context of different Departments that have different mandates and different pressures. Has Professor Crowe thoughts on that part of the legislation, without dragging him into political considerations, but just from the area of his own scientific expertise?

Professor Tasman Crowe

I think that is beyond the science, in a way. I have described exactly what the science can contribute, which is a clear knowledge base that says that this is going to cause problems. However, when we say we know this is going to destroy a certain piece of the environment but there is an overriding public interest in that happening, that decision is outside my remit.

Deputy Thomas Gould took the Chair.

Let me press Professor Crowe. I am trying to keep within the science. If, for example, a particular part of our marine environment is damaged to such an extent that a species goes extinct or we lose some key feature, that is not an isolated thing in and of itself, and that can then have a knock-on effect and a further knock-on effect. From a scientific point of view, when we talk about reasons of overriding public interest, it is not just about whether economic activity A goes here or whether a high level of marine biodiversity conservation happens here; it is the question of what is the longer-term scientific impact if we go for that. When we talk to the NGOs, for the first time we start to see this tension between renewable energy, emissions reductions and biodiversity loss. We will hear some people say that we cannot have one while sacrificing the other, and there have to be robust ways of achieving both, accepting that we cannot keep everybody happy all of the time.

Professor Tasman Crowe

I agree. There is another evidence base that could come to bear on that decision-making process, which is a detailed assessment of the socioeconomic and cultural positives and negatives of the situation, so that should also be on the table when the discussions are being had. I think that is part of what is stated, and there is an expert advisory group that includes the socioeconomic dimension. Someone who is claiming overriding public interest should be able to back that up with an analysis and an evidence base. To my mind, those decisions are somebody’s to make but they should make them with the fullest possible comprehensive view of evidence that they can lay their hands on, rather than just a few anecdotal comments. There needs to be a proper and thorough evaluation of the consequences for the system and for society.

I thank Professor Crowe for that.

I have one or two questions. I apologise as I have been popping in and out of the meeting all day. In his opening statement, Professor Crowe discussed the need for MPA networks. How many would he expect there to be?

Professor Tasman Crowe

How many MPAs?

Professor Tasman Crowe

I cannot really answer that. One of the considerations with designing MPAs and MPA networks is the size of the MPAs. Part of the analysis that we are engaged with is to determine that for different species and different habitats. If too small an area is designated, and there could be lots of very small MPAs, that may not be the best way forward. It might be that a smaller number of larger MPAs is what we really need but that will vary from feature to feature, so I cannot really give a straight answer. I am sorry to prevaricate.

That is fine. Is it possible there would be an MPA within an MPA, given what Professor Crowe is talking about?

Professor Tasman Crowe

Most definitely, we could have that. It is quite common practice to have an area that is designated as an MPA but, within it, there are sub-areas that are managed in different ways to allow different activities in this area but not in another area, for different reasons. That is very much a possibility.

In terms of improving the legislation with regard to the general scheme, which Professor Crowe referenced earlier, what does he think needs to happen now? He spoke earlier about stakeholder engagement. If there were a couple of priorities for him to improve the legislation, what advice would he give or what would be his thoughts on that?

Professor Tasman Crowe

We have covered quite a lot in the discussion on the stakeholder side. I made some more detailed notes about the stakeholder side and ways I thought it could be woven more strongly into the Bill, so I am happy to send and share those, and I undertake to do that. We have been talking about that management authority question a little, and some clarity on the exact nature of the management authority seems to me to be an important consideration. I will check my notes but I think those were the main things.

Professor Crowe mentioned the citizens’ assembly's success and the praise he had for it. The Bill mirrors many of the recommendations but does it mirror the strength of feeling from the citizens’ assembly in the legislation?

Professor Tasman Crowe

That is a good question. Subject to some of the tweaks we have been talking about, like the “up to 30%”, the citizens’ assembly had a strong view that there should be 30%, so that “up to” certainly weakens that a little. We spoke about the diffuse and complicated nature of the governance structures and the fact different Departments have a stake in biodiversity and the marine environment, and it is difficult to envisage a process by which everyone is working in a more cohesive and co-ordinated way.

One of the strong pushes from the citizens’ assembly was that there should be more joined-up thinking. As I said, that is a real challenge and it is difficult to do that. However, some mechanism by which there is a guiding authority that helps to shape what gets done by different Departments would be something the citizens would have been looking for in their recommendations. The Bill goes some way towards that. I am not sure if it was head 14, concerning the existing authorisations, but there is a process there through which the Minister is able to engage with the other Departments that have strong authority to change things in the marine environment.

That is where that is happening. One could argue that it is not happening strongly enough but one could also argue that it is happening in a realistic and pragmatic way given the system we operate in. I do not know which way I would fall in that discussion.

I have one observation from an exchange we had with the Department last week. If one takes terrestrial planning, and I know it is not the same, we zone certain geographical areas where certain types of activity are permissible. Even where these is one planning enforcement body, which is our local authority, and even when everybody knows there is a single form to fill in to make a formal complaint, which used to cost €20 but is now free, planning enforcement is still a slow and unsatisfactory process. That is no criticism of planning authorities. There is an online article in one of the newspapers today saying the planning authorities need an extra 35% just to make planning decisions and to work on policy, let alone for enforcement.

There are two aspects to this. One is either having the maximum degree of co-operation between existing entities or some streamlining, but also when somebody is responsible for enforcement they need to have the legal capacity and the resources to do that. The issue of the role of the navy came up in the general scheme and the navy has an important role, but it is not known for its biodiversity and ecology expertise, unlike people like Professor Crowe and the Marine Institute. When the ship is out in the middle of the ocean, it might rock up to some industrial operator, for example, to ask "Well, what it happening, my friend?" How that will function in the real world will be tricky and, therefore, for us it is not just about who is to enforce but what powers, resources and expertise they have. We can sign something on paper that looks very nice but if it is like our terrestrial planning enforcement, we will be battling that for decades to come. I take from what Professor Crowe said about a role for the National Parks and Wildlife Service and the special areas of conservation, SACs, etc., that was not something that was adequately addressed in the creation of that structure and, therefore, we need to look at that in this legislation. However that is just an observation for the record.

Professor Tasman Crowe

I completely agree that the resourcing is the critical piece. That does not really appear in the legislation as such. A strong push from the citizens' assembly and from everybody we spoke to is that the legislation needs to be adequately resourced to make it work, otherwise people will put a lot of effort into creating something that is wonderful in its aspiration but is weak in its implementation. As the Deputy said, that has been such a common pattern. It would be fantastic if we could avoid that, and that the proper resourcing is put in place.

I thank the Professor Crowe for attending. It was two hours of very heavy but important contributions from him because this is an important Bill. On behalf of the committee, I thank him for his participation.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.03 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 2 February 2023.
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