Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage debate -
Tuesday, 21 Mar 2023

Tenant In Situ Process: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

Today's meeting is to discuss an update on the tenant in situ process. From the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, we are joined by Ms Áine Stapleton, assistant secretary with responsibility for social housing delivery; Mr. David Kelly, principal officer in charge of housing finance and delivery co-ordination; and Ms Rosemarie Tobin, principal officer with responsibility for homelessness policy, funding and delivery. From the County and City Management Association, CCMA, we are joined by Ms AnnMarie Farrelly, CEO of Fingal County Council; Mr. Coilín O'Reilly, assistant chief executive with responsibility for housing and community at Dublin City Council; and Ms Mary Hayes, director of the Dublin Region Homeless Executive, DRHE. The witnesses are all welcome. I thank them for their attendance and for the briefing documents they sent to the committee in advance of the meeting, copies of which were circulated to members.

We extended an invitation to today's meeting to the Residential Tenancies Board, RTB. Representatives of the board were unable to attend the meeting but they sent us on the latest relevant data they have collected.

Before we proceed, I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they be physically present within the confines of the place in which the Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. Witnesses attending in the committee room are advised that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions to today's meeting. This means they will have an absolute defence against any defamation action arising from anything they say in the meeting. Both members are witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy. It is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if any statements made are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, speakers will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that speakers comply with any such direction. Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Ms Stapleton to make her opening statement on behalf of the Department.

Ms Áine Stapleton

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to appear before the committee today. As he outlined, I am joined by Mr. Kelly, who has responsibility for housing finance and housing delivery co-ordination within the Department, and Ms Tobin, who is responsible for homelessness policy, funding and delivery. I have overall responsibility for social housing delivery.

Under Housing for All, social housing forms a core element of housing delivery, with a target to deliver an average of 10,000 new-build social homes between 2022 and 2030. It places a focus on the delivery of new-build social homes by local authorities and approved housing bodies, AHBs, with a reduced reliance on acquisitions and the phased elimination of long-term leasing over the period. With the primary focus on delivery through the new-build programme, Housing for All included targets for the acquisition of 200 social homes per annum.

In January 2022, a circular letter was issued to local authorities setting out the arrangements for social housing acquisitions in that year. Local authorities were advised that social housing acquisitions were to be focused on certain priority categories, namely, one-bedroom units to deliver on Housing First and meet the short supply in this category, other properties that allow persons or families to exit homelessness, and specific housing required for or suitable for individuals with a disability or other particular priority needs. Local authorities were also advised that limited acquisitions through our capital assistance scheme, CAS, will also be supported, subject to the available budget and where they are targeted at specific vulnerable cohorts, such as housing provision for older people, accommodation for individuals and families who are homeless and for people with a disability. However, the priority would be to support the delivery of construction projects using CAS funding.

In April of last year, the housing system came under increased pressure as the State sought to provide accommodation to large numbers of Ukrainians who had arrived in Ireland following the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The Minister reinstated delegated sanction to local authorities to acquire homes for social housing purposes for priority categories. As an important measure to prevent homelessness, local authorities were requested by the Minister to be proactive in acquiring properties where a housing assistance payment, HAP, or rental accommodation scheme, RAS, tenant had received a notice of termination due to the landlord’s intention to sell the property.

This month, following an increase in the numbers of households in emergency accommodation and an increase in the number of notices of termination notified to the Residential Tenancies Board, the Government approved a significant increase in the number of social housing acquisitions for 2023, from 200 to 1,500. The additional 1,300 acquisitions are to be focused on the purchase of properties where a HAP or RAS tenant has received a notice of termination due to the landlord’s intention to sell the property. This overall target will be kept under review in light of emerging experience.

To support local authority planning, each local authority was provided with an initial allocation for the number of acquisitions that would be funded in its area. They were advised that this allocation would be kept under review during 2023. All local authorities will provide the Department with a short report by the end of March on the number of acquisitions that have been completed to that point and the number that are in progress.

Value for money will continue to be a consideration for the Department and the delegated sanction issued to local authorities is subject to acquisitions being within acquisition cost guidelines issued by the Department to all local authorities. However, properties above the cost guidelines can also be submitted to the Department for consideration. Where works are required to upgrade a property, this should be incorporated into the overall cost. The Department has worked closely with the County and City Management Association, CCMA, to prioritise this initiative with a focus on the prevention of homelessness. All local authorities have been asked to nominate a contact point for dealing with queries on social housing acquisitions.

It is important to note that the acquisition of a property is just one of the supports offered to a tenant at risk of homelessness. Where a household presents to a local authority at risk of homelessness, the local authority will work with the household to identify an appropriate solution. With the increase in social housing build output in 2022, there has been an increase in the stock available to local authorities to allocate to households who are on the social housing waiting list with over 5,000 homes added to social housing stock over the period of the deferral of notices of termination, from October to March. A total of 9,100 new-build social homes will be delivered in 2023. This delivery will be supported by changes to the capital advance leasing facility, CALF, funding scheme, which will ensure that approved housing bodies, AHBs, can deliver social housing in all local authority areas. Social housing stock will also be augmented by the Government’s introduction of an additional 1,000 homes through a targeted leasing initiative. The Department expects that 600 of these homes can be delivered this year and the remainder in 2024. It is worth noting that, despite the challenges in the rental market, an average of over 160 HAP tenancies are being established each week and each local authority HAP place finder officer will also support households to identify and secure a suitable tenancy in the private rented market, where possible.

Supporting households at risk of homelessness is a key priority for Government. The increase in social housing acquisitions will play an important part in securing social housing homes for many tenants facing a notice of termination of a tenancy. The Department will work closely with the local authorities to ensure that this programme of work is completed efficiently during 2023. I thank the Chair. My colleagues and I are happy to answer any questions.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

On behalf of the local government sector, we welcome the opportunity to attend the committee's meeting to discuss tenant in situ acquisitions. I am joined by my colleague, Mr. O’Reilly, from the housing, building and land use committee of the CCMA, who is also assistant city manager in the housing department of Dublin City Council, and by Ms Hayes, director of the Dublin Regional Homeless Executive.

Local authorities, as housing authorities, provide homes and supports to those with a housing need. We work in partnership with approved housing bodies, the charity sector and other stakeholders to assist tenants in difficulty. That happens on an ongoing basis and will continue in the coming months. Tenant in situ acquisitions are part of the suite of local authority responses available to provide housing as well as addressing and stopping new entries to homelessness. Local authorities manage more than 140,000 social homes and added more than 7,600 additional homes to social housing stock last year. It is expected that the delivery of new homes will be greater in 2023. This will provide homes to a significant number of people with a housing need.

The housing assistance payment is another important support. On average, 166 HAP tenancies are created each week. Homeless HAP is an enhanced version of the scheme that offers additional support to those who are homeless or at risk of homelessness. HAP place finders in local authorities assist in sourcing properties for households experiencing or at risk of homelessness. Initiatives such as targeting leasing and the amendment of the capital advance leasing facility used by AHBs to assist them in their efforts in delivering social homes are also welcomed by the CCMA.

I will not go through the policy context as illustrated by the circulars from February 2022 to March 2022 but nationally the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage supports acquisitions for social housing by local authorities under the social housing capital investment programme, SHIP, and by AHBs under CALF and the CAS. The table in my written submission sets out the pipeline of acquisitions for 2023 and the numbers completed to date. A total of 42 have been completed to date in 2023. The total completed combined with the pipeline envisaged to be completed by the end of the year comprises 525 properties. These figures include tenant in situ acquisitions in 2023. Since Circular 16/2022 was issued in April 2022, the number of acquisitions across the sector for which sale has been agreed or completed with tenant in situ, totals 367 while a further 634 are in the pipeline and are being progressed through the process.

The acquisition of properties with tenants in situ was piloted by Dublin City Council in 2018 at the instigation of Mr. Brendan Kenny, former deputy chief executive of Dublin City Council. The objective was to offer an alternative to homelessness to tenants in the private rented sector who were supported by HAP, RAS or rent supplement and whose landlord intended to sell the property. The benefits of acquiring a house with tenant in situ include: the permanent housing of applicants who are qualified for social housing support; homelessness prevention and the associated psychosocial benefits; and improved tenure diversity. The challenges include: the housing of qualified applicants ahead of other qualified households who have spent longer on the social housing waiting list and who may also currently be experiencing homelessness; competition with first-time buyers and others; and State expenditure on housing without any additional new-build housing being created.

Most local authorities will include consideration of the following as part of the decision to acquire or prioritise the acquisition of a property with a tenant in situ: whether there is a valid notice of termination; household need, including bedroom requirement, as applied to other social housing tenants, and whether the property meets any specific requirements of the household; estate management checks; compliant rent history; the length of time qualified for social housing; the length of time in the tenancy; condition survey of the property; costs of potential upgrade works; and compliance with planning, fire and building regulations.

A difficulty may present in the case of HAP where the local authority of application is not the local authority of residence. Local authorities, in the spirit of collaboration and remaining public-focused, are working on a regional basis to consider arrangements that can be put in place for these cases.

The property acquisition process can be broken into a number of steps. The first is that the tenant contacts the local authority to advise of the notice of termination. The local authority then inspects the property and the property is valued. The local authority then enters into negotiations with the owner. The next step is that the property goes sale agreed, which provides comfort for the tenant, before the sale is ultimately completed.

Local authorities are acutely aware of the impact of homelessness including the difficulty in exiting homelessness and the long-term impact of time spent in homelessness. The increase in notices of termination for reason of landlord sale has been noted for some time in homeless presentations. We are cognisant that the RTB recorded 2,845 notices of termination for reason of landlord sale in the third quarter of 2022 and that this presents an increased risk of homelessness for households in the coming months. The CCMA notes that only a proportion of these relate to social housing and HAP tenancies and local authorities cannot control the scale of the exits.

Local authorities, with the consistent support of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, are delivering additional emergency accommodation capacity, as well as encouraging exits from homelessness through social housing allocations and HAP tenancies. There are currently, on average, 166 HAP tenancies being created weekly and local authorities continue to actively promote these delivery options for both landlords and tenants.

The additional housing supply that has come on stream in 2022, which will continue into 2023 and beyond, will significantly help to provide homes to people with a housing need. Tenant in situ acquisitions are just one part of a suite of local authority responses available to tackle housing need.

The local government sector welcomes the additional support from Government to complete tenant in situ acquisitions for households in receipt of HAP and RAS supports and will work together to ensure the 1,500 additional acquisitions are achieved this year. The sector is prioritising tenant in situ acquisitions for households as necessary and required in order to support Government policy in addressing homelessness.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I thank the witnesses for attending. I will share a typical message somebody sent to me:

Oh my god. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I can't put into words how grateful I am. You have restored my security, my safety, my sanity. What you have done for me and my family is beyond words. I could barely eat. I could barely sleep. I had lost all sense of my own self security. You have restored it.

That is somebody who was renting and on a housing list for seven years. Through the witnesses’ work and the people who work with them, the person's tenancy has been secured. I had very little to do with it. I thank the public officials who have worked with me and responded to the queries that I have raised. I got to receive those nice messages, but they are the ones who do the work and it makes a difference. It is making a real difference in people’s lives. I appreciate it and I want them to know that it is appreciated.

Brendan Kenny is mentioned in the report and it is appropriate that we acknowledge him. I was probably one of the councillors going to him back in 2018 and telling him, for example, I had a family on a housing list in a rental property in Cabra, which was originally a local authority home. It was being sold. It would cost €70,000 to put them into a family hub for a year. Why would the local authority not buy it? It had not met its target that year. To be fair to him, he did it. He was always pragmatic. I want to acknowledge the service that he provided as a public servant and all the public servants who have learned from him and continue that great work and tradition.

There are roughly 1,000 families and individuals who have secured their home. Not all of them have been in Dublin Central, thankfully. The majority of the homelessness is in Dublin and the RTB report tells us that.

It is a nightmare for anybody to get a notice to quit at the moment because of the supply shortages. My first question is for the DRHE representative. How many homeless people have been referred to Garda stations? Were any referred this or last week? How many will be referred next week?

Ms Mary Hayes

It is a straightforward answer. “None” is the answer. We have not referred a family to a Garda station at any point. The last time I am aware of would be in 2018 when a family was referred to a Garda station by an NGO. We have not referred any families to a Garda station since that time nor have we had any need to.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

If somebody gets a notice to quit over the weekend or out of hours, what happens?

Ms Mary Hayes

Our service works from 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. However, I would tell people that we want early engagement where at all possible. We do not expect, necessarily, families to arrive at the very last minute out of hours either on a Saturday or a Sunday. If someone has a notice of termination that falls on a Saturday or Sunday, we usually like to keep that emergency service literally for emergencies. Other than that, we may as well place them the week before it falls. If someone has engaged with us early, we will start planning. If there is no other prevention available and we need to place them in emergency accommodation, we will do it the week before their notice falls due.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

To provide reassurance for any tenants who receive a notice to quit, the first thing the housing authority does is offer advice and support. That should be at the very early stages following their receipt of that notice. We can offer that advice and support very early on. There are options available. We may look at an alternative HAP letting, which is one option, an offer of housing support, depending on their social housing need and their length of time on the list, or the tenant in situ acquisition. Emergency accommodation is a last resort. That early approach to the housing authority is essential, as Ms Hayes just mentioned. The emergency accommodation is the last stage of a process. There are many alternatives before then. We encourage tenants to get in touch before they reach that last stage.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I will ask another question. The challenges of tenant in situ were mentioned. Housing has so many challenges in every respect. Why would a landlord sell? If a landlord is selling already, why would he or she sell to the local authority? Why would landlords not just put it on the market and sell to the highest bidder?

Mr. Coilín O'Reilly

There are a couple of reasons for that. First, the landlord, obviously, has a relationship with the tenants and may want to see the tenants stay in the property. They may be a tenant for ten or 15 years in some cases, so the landlord may have a wish to see the family that is living in the property continue to live there. The second reason is there is security of transaction with a local authority. Sometimes, if you are purchasing a property, you might be in a chain, waiting on somebody to sell and somebody further to sell. When you enter into engagement with a local authority and we get to the negotiation phase, you know that the money, want and will are there to acquire the property. Third, and most simply, it saves on the estate agent fees for the landlord. They can go straight to the local authority. There is a small financial reason as well. Those are generally the reasons.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Great.

My next question is for the Department. On the housing supply numbers, how confident is the Department that the local authorities are ramping up to increase supply commensurate with the Housing for All targets?

Ms Áine Stapleton

The evidence of the past few years is encouraging. If we look at data for 2021, the supply that was added to the social housing stock was just over 9,100. We are waiting on the final statistical data for 2022 but we would expect that to be of the order of about 10,000 across the building acquisition and lease. For 2023, we are looking at targets of about 11,500 to 12,000. Across those three years, there is a gross addition to social housing stock of the order of 30,000 units. That is encouraging. In addition, we can see the build element of that continuing to increase.

As we look at the pipeline, we can see that local authorities are now beginning to put a strong pipeline in place. We are putting new measures in place to support them through land acquisition. We are also looking at particular measures to accelerate delivery. Towards the end of last year, the Minister was in a position to support local authorities with some land legacy debt. Linked to that, we have a programme of accelerated delivery. Taking the combination of all of the initiatives in place, we are quite confident that it is heading in the right direction.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I thank everybody for their presentations. One of the discussions we have been having both in the Oireachtas and publicly since the winter ban on evictions was introduced is why we have not seen the level of reduction in men, women and children in emergency accommodation as we did when Eoghan Murphy introduced his ban on evictions in 2020. Of course, we know the reason. It is because the number of exits from emergency accommodation has collapsed significantly over that period. Part of that is because the private rental sector has been contracting and part of it is because there has not been access to the short-term letting sector in the same way as there was in 2020, etc. I am saying that because that means the tenant in situ scheme is even more valuable now as one of the homeless prevention measures than may have been perceived previously.

What our committee and some of us would like to understand is why the progress with the scheme since it opened in April of last year has been so slow in terms of the number of properties offered versus the number purchased. My questions are not intended to be a criticism of anybody. Particularly, the local authority staff are under enormous pressure with all of the different demands on their time.

If we are going to see an increase in tenants in situ over the next 12 months, we need to try to fix some of those problems that are clearly there, and I think we would all accept that.

Most of my questions in the first round are for Ms Stapleton. I will come back to the local government sector in the second round. I have one question for Ms Farrelly. In relation to sales agreed and completed, there is a figure of 367 since the scheme reopened. Do we know the total number of properties offered for sale by landlords, but which were subsequently either withdrawn, because they were sold on the private market, or turned down by the local authorities, because they did not meet the various criteria, so we can compare the number offered versus the number completed? Does the Department have that figure?

Mr. Coilín O'Reilly

I might take that question. We do not have the specifics of the figure. In Dublin City Council, we know how many inquiries we had, but inquiries could come from the tenants as well. We had 322 inquiries which may have come from the tenant or the landlord. That has progressed to just over 208 in a process.

To answer the first part of the Deputy's question around the timeline, back in April when it was first announced, it was a trickle. We were not getting big numbers in. That increased a little bit towards the end of the summer and it continues to increase, but we are not getting thousands. The number 400 for 2023 for Dublin City Council looks like it should be just about what we need.

What is the reason for the timeline? It is like any process. We have to go through the correct due diligence, the acquisition of a property, the legal checks on ownership of the property and the inspection of the property to make sure it is up to specification. Then we enter into negotiation with the landlord around the valuation, and engage our own valuers in Dublin City Council to provide a valuation for that property. Then we will engage with the landlord. Finally, you get into the legals and contracts, the back and forward, and deposits. It takes a period time to do it correctly and to make sure it is done right. At the moment, I think three to four months is the average time, from the start to the end point.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

From when a landlord makes contact to say they are interested in possibly selling to when it is purchased, is it three to four months?

Mr. Coilín O'Reilly

Yes, that is generally the timeframe, and that requires inspections and inspection reports. I have gone through the steps. Could it be done quicker? Maybe it could be done a little quicker, but we are not going to take months off that, because it takes time to do the correct checks and go through the process.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I thank Mr. O'Reilly for that.

With regard to understanding the direction that has been given to local authorities, obviously, the circular talked about "delegated sanction". In plain English, what does that mean? At the nub of a lot of the difficulties is what the Department intends by that, and then how that is being interpreted differently by different local authorities.

Ms Áine Stapleton

What we intend is to hand over the authority to the individual local authorities to make the decision on the acquisition, once that acquisition is within the cost acquisition upper threshold guideline. Generally speaking, I know from talking to my colleagues from the Department, the vast majority of acquisitions come within those thresholds. We have made it very clear to colleagues in the County and City Managers Association, CCMA, that where something is above the higher threshold, they can still come to the Department and have that looked at if they feel it is appropriate for acquisition.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

In addition to those financial controls, with regard to the application of the scheme of letting through the allocation system, is there or has there been a direction from the Department to give guidance to local authorities on how the allocation scheme applies? We know that when the previous tenants in situ scheme was in place, Dublin City Council kind of applied roughly a five-year rule. My local authority applied an eight-year rule. Other local authorities did not apply a rule at all, and if it was to prevent somebody from homelessness, they would make an acquisition. Is the Department leaving that to individual local authorities to decide, or is there guidance on the interaction between the application for tenants in situ, and the ordinary allocation rules for social housing allocation?

Ms Áine Stapleton

The Minister has been very clear on the communication with local authorities, that these acquisitions are to be devoted to those who are in housing assistance payment, HAP, or rental accommodation scheme, RAS, tenancies, who have received a notice of termination for reasons of sale. That messaging to local authorities has been really clear. The local authorities, of course, have responsibility for their allocation schemes. Part of the additionality to stock I outlined is helpful in this context because it gives local authorities a wider range of stock within which to make allocation decisions. The tenants in situ scheme is one element of the suite of solutions, as Ms Farrelly said, that they will available to them.

We leave a certain amount of that decision-making at local authority level, but the Minister has been very clear that the acquisitions are to be devoted to those who are at risk of homelessness and who are in a HAP or RAS tenancy.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

To come back to Mr. O'Reilly, not just in terms of his own local authority, but in terms of his colleagues in different local authorities, how are local authorities applying the scheme of lettings and the allocation scheme? We are hearing stories, for example, of tenants in situ applications where there might be an extra bedroom, or somebody who is only a short number of years on the list, not being actively considered. Is there a different approach across different local authorities, or is there an agreed approach to the interaction of the scheme, the allocation scheme, and the tenants in situ scheme?

Mr. Coilín O'Reilly

In short, there is a different approach across different local authorities. The scheme gives different local authorities flexibility to engage with the scheme in whatever way they want, and every local authority is different, from the number of people on the social housing list, the geography of the county, the number of towns, the number of properties and all that. It all changes.

What I would say on behalf of the sector is that the last thing any local authority official wants to see is a family going into homelessness, and we work constantly to keep families out of homelessness and to keep them in properties, and to support that. We will be as flexible as we can. In the statement-----

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Is Dublin City Council applying a notional length of time on list, or which bits of its allocation system is it applying when making a decision on a tenant in situ?

Mr. Coilín O'Reilly

It was five years but we are now looking at a period of time of two years. However, it depends on the specific case. There is a general rule of thumb, but everything is done on a case-by-case basis and looking at the situation. As Deputy Ó Broin knows, every case is different, every case has merits, and every case has difficulties. We are very good at doing that. We have done that for a very long time. We engage with the Deputy or the councillor and we try to help as much as we can.

In some cases, which the Deputy mentioned, a single person might be in a three- or four-bedroom house. That does not make sense from the point of view of the State or the local authority, and it is not fair. There is also a moral hazard, which we mentioned in our submission, in regard to people who have been on the list for a very long time. We have to be really careful in balancing acquisitions under tenants in situ.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Deputy Ó Broin. Deputy Emer Higgins can go next.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I thank the Chair, and all of the witnesses for being here today and all of their teams for the work they are doing on the ground in preventing homelessness and in making sure we are building, acquiring and leasing more homes for people.

I will start with Ms Stapleton. I have two questions for her and two questions for the CCMA. We heard a little bit about the allocation decisions being up to individual local authorities. I refer to the circular sent out on 13 March. It is aiming for 1,500 tenants in situ nationwide, and 10% of those are in my local authority of South Dublin County Council. Does that get reviewed at any point in time if certain local authorities are finding they do not have the demand or the need coming their way, and others are? A figure of 150 seems quite low for South Dublin County Council, and it might be looking at that on a quarterly basis and at what that looks like. I cannot speak for it, but if all local authorities are using their different mechanisms, at what point do the 40 Kildare County Council does not use go back in the pile for others to be looked at? That is my question, and I am using Kildare as an example.

My second question is for the Department and its key performance indicators, KPIs, around build, acquisition and leasing. As part of that, are vacancies and voids monitored? Does Ms Stapleton have any percentages she could give to us in relation to the approved housing bodies, AHBs, in particular, and on vacancies and voids?

I would like to ask the CCMA about the tenants in situ programme being rolled out. Are there enough staff to make this happen in local authorities? My local authority staff are under immense pressure. This seems to be a huge responsibility to be putting on people who are not real estate agents, and who do not deal with this as their bread and butter. Is there the will among local authorities to take on certain properties that might not be up to the building energy rating, BER, or that will have maintenance costs versus the new, shiny builds that are coming this way?

I would like to ask Dublin City Council, given that it piloted this in 2018, how it works from a long-term perspective if its tenants are in the home purchased for them, there is overcrowding, they have outgrown it, they have another child or whatever the case may be. How does that work from a practical perspective?

If some tenants leave that accommodation, is it easy to get other people to move in or is it a less attractive proposition than a new build? Perhaps the Department could start. I am afraid we only have four and a half minutes for everyone to contribute.

Ms Áine Stapleton

The Deputy's first question is a practical one. We intend to keep the numbers under close review, including both the overall 1,500 - I think the Government is willing to consider whether that is sufficient as we proceed - and the distribution across local authorities. As part of the governance arrangements, we have asked local authorities to come back to us by the end of March with an initial indication of how it is going and we will continue to engage with them. If it turns out that the distribution needs to be adjusted, we will be happy to do that.

On the vacancies and voids, last year 2,700 void units were brought back into use. I do not have a percentage to hand of AHB vacancies. Perhaps the Deputy is referring to the time taken to occupy an AHB property.

Deputy Emer Higgins

Yes, I am thinking of examples of newly built homes that have been empty for two years which people have not moved into. If we could get a little tighter on getting families into them, it would speed things up. If it is possible to get information on that after the meeting by email, that would be great.

Ms Áine Stapleton

We can certainly look at that. From a departmental point of view, we would find it unforgivable that homes would be vacant for that length of time. We are keen to look at that.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

In respect of staffing levels, we are thankful for the work our front-line staff do. It is challenging to staff our Departments. That said, we have certain priorities and tenants in situ are very much a priority. The issue impacts on two sets of staff, namely, those who deal with homelessness prevention and those who acquire properties. We have a fairly streamlined process in place for the acquisition of properties and a streamlined process for supporting homeless families. The tenant in situ process begins with the family who is faced with an eviction notice and is looking for a suitable property to live in. It could be the property they live in already, if the tenant in situ process applies, or there could be a better solution. That process is gone through. From following events in recent weeks, we now need to streamline exactly what we are doing and provide a point of contact for landlords to ensure they know what the process is. I think I speak for all local authorities when I say that we are well under way to ensuring the process is clear and understandable for everyone. I will also point out that it is a capital acquisition. As we are buying a property, due process will be associated with that as Mr. O'Reilly mentioned earlier.

As regards taking on certain properties, I go back to the point that the property must be suitable for the family concerned. We will run into difficulties in the future if we buy unsuitable properties for families, if they are overcrowded or underoccupied or whatever the case may be. Ensuring we are doing the correct thing for the family is a key part of homelessness prevention, where it can be done.

Ms Mary Hayes

With respect to how it works practically on the ground in Dublin City Council, once people become tenants in situ, they are tenants like anyone else. They can apply after two years, in the same way as any other tenant of Dublin City Council. I presume it is the same anywhere, that whatever the transfer rules are, they apply accordingly.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I understand that since 2018, the witnesses might not have many examples but can they confirm there have not been any issues in re-letting those properties?

Ms Mary Hayes

While we have not have many of them yet, no, none at all.

Deputy Emer Higgins

Super.

An Cathaoirleach

I will take the next slot. I concur with what Senator Fitzpatrick said at the start of the meeting about the work rate. My experience of dealing with local authority staff who deal with homelessness and housing is that they are dealing with an incredible workload and demonstrate incredible dedication. Often we are simply the people who make the connection between the local authority and the client, which is helpful.

I have a few questions about the circular in Mr. Kelly's name. Each local authority is asked to nominate a contact point for dealing with queries on social housing acquisition. Does each local authority have that in place now? If I, as a public representative, or if a tenant or landlord wants to contact any of the local authorities on that list, are they set up?

Mr. David Kelly

The circular went out last week. We have asked for a report from local authorities by the end of the month so I expect those contacts will be in place by the end of March.

An Cathaoirleach

I apologise, that is at the bottom. It is an important aspect of this matter as we will be dealing with people who are anxious and worried, so to have one point of contact is important. Public representatives, including councillors, Deputies, Senators and so on will also be part of that mix. There will be one point of contact we can all go to. That is fine.

On the last page of that circular in the appendix, almost half of the provision of social housing acquisitions at local authority level is in the Dublin area which includes the four Dublin councils. How were the figures arrived at? What was the process? For example, Wicklow, Wexford or Westmeath have 30 allocations or acquisitions.

Mr. David Kelly

The first thing I will say is that the allocations are provisional and are subject to review. Since the circular was issued, we have been talking to local authorities and getting feedback about whether the allocation is sufficient or looks a little high or low. As Ms Stapleton mentioned earlier, we will keep it under constant review. We want to ensure the full 1,500 acquisitions are delivered. The initial allocations were based on an analysis of the numbers of people who are homeless and who are on the housing waiting lists in each local authority area. Similar to the way social housing targets were issued, these are based on an assessment of need, but we also took the number of people who are homeless into account. However, we will be keeping those numbers under review and we will work throughout the year with local authorities on their experience of implementing the scheme.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. I will pick the bottom two counties. If there is no take-up, demand or need for this in County Wexford but we find in Westmeath there is a much bigger demand, those figures are moveable. The Department will assess and monitor that on a constant basis. Is that how it will be done?

Mr. David Kelly

Yes, as Mr. O'Reilly mentioned in his intervention, some local authorities are under less pressure because of the amount of new stock coming on stream. They have stock available. I will not name the local authority but it has a lot of new stock that came on stream in the past few months, so when people present to that homeless service, stock is available whether it is being delivered by local authority build schemes, by AHBs or through leasing. They are under less pressure in the area of tenants in situ because they have new stock to allocate. There is a variety of criteria. It can depend on demand from tenants and availability of stock and other properties. We will keep all of those criteria under review to ensure we balance the need across the local authorities with the availability. The other matter I think the Minister would be keen to stress is that this target will also be kept under review, depending on the demand from the sector.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Kelly. Mr. O'Reilly mentioned a three- to four-month timeline for the sale of properties. That does not seem like an excessively long timeline to me for the sale of a property to go through, although we would like it to be quicker. However, I think that is quite a good timeline. From my experience, I know the sale of a house can often take much longer than that. That is not too bad. When the local authority is offered a house for sale and it requires work to be brought up to a certain standard, or additional work needs to be done on it, does the council have to take all of that into account?

Mr. Coilín O'Reilly

Yes. The other point to make is that unlike in the private sale of a house, there is no negotiation. Our valuers set the value and that is final. Sometimes the landlord will offer to sell the property to the council for €20,000 more. The council will say that the value is the value. There is no negotiation. That takes many of the steps out of the process. The value is set by a professional valuer and that is final.

With regard to the property, it is on a case-by-case basis. It depends on the level of intervention or work required. Some properties need more than €100,000 worth of work. That does not make economic sense from the point of view of the local authority or the State. If a small amount of work is required, for example something such as upgrading to fire doors in the property, that is easily done, but it is decided on a case-by-case basis, taking into account the value of the property. One of our professional building inspectors will look at the property and give us an estimate of the required works and how much they would cost. Then it becomes a cost-based decision.

An Cathaoirleach

The attractiveness for landlords is that they are dealing with a State agency in the local authority.

Moreover, they do not have to go through that process of having an empty house for a viewing that they have to redecorate etc. The tenant stays in place for the entire time. There is no loss of income for the landlord, he or she sells, and it is straight-on movement like that. It is a clean process like that for all involved.

The valuation is carried out. Who carries out the valuation?

Mr. Coilín O'Reilly

In the city council, we have our own professional valuation department. We provide some valuation services to other local authorities on the service-based model. Other local authorities would use local valuations on similar properties that sold, the property interest register and properties that have sold recently. They would get an independent estate agent to look at that price and use that as a valuation for the file in general.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. O'Reilly. I did not quite catch at the start, when Ms Stapleton was speaking, the number of houses over the past three years brought into social housing. What was the figure?

Ms Áine Stapleton

For 2021, across build, acquisition and lease, it was just over 9,100. For 2022, we are still finalising the statistics. They should be available soon. That would be in the order of 10,000 across build, acquisition and lease. The targets, for 2023, would be between 11,500 and 12,000. We are talking about in excess of 30,000 across the three years.

An Cathaoirleach

What is the number of voids?

Ms Áine Stapleton

My recollection, for 2022, is 2,700.

An Cathaoirleach

Is there a target for voids for 2023?

Ms Áine Stapleton

There is, and I will confirm that for you.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Stapleton for clarifying that.

I will move on. Deputy O'Donoghue is next, in the Independent slot.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

My question for the panel relates to the delivery of social housing and any housing in County Limerick. The Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, visited recently and we went around looking at the houses that were being built by the local authority and different developers in the area. In every one of the places that we went to show the houses that were being built, their sewage capacity was at maximum capacity. In Patrickswell, we went to where there were 110 houses being announced and there are other planning applications gone in there. Their system needs to be upgraded. We went on to Hospital, where there was 20 houses being shown. They were near completion. Five of them had an on-site septic tank, in Hospital.

An Cathaoirleach

Tenant in situ is the reason for the meeting. I want to clarify that.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

We are going on delivery of houses and delivery of houses for tenancies is the same.

An Cathaoirleach

The tenant in situ purchase scheme is what we are discussing.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

In their delivery, the witnesses were going through the amount of social houses that were being delivered.

For people to get into my county, infrastructure is needed. For businesses to survive in my county, infrastructure is needed. If you do a retrofit on your business, you cannot build unless we have people there. Tenants in situ as well, if they are working, want to work. If there is no infrastructure, they are at a loss because it is costing more to live in the county to go to work.

From the point of tenancies and voids, Kilmallock is a 14th-century town where most of the buildings are listed. How do I get people into buildings? It is costing more to get tenants into listed buildings. In the 1400s, 1500s, 1600s and 1700s, and all the way up to 50 years ago, there were people living in these buildings but now, conservation is standing in the way of me putting people back into them. Instead of encouraging people to move into listed buildings, you are being discouraged because of the cost involved.

I am a builder. I build every day. I was on-site this morning before I came here. There is probably a bit of concrete on my shoes, but the committee will have to excuse that. I understand it because I live it. I understand what is getting in the way of putting people into buildings because I live it on a daily basis. The biggest problem for me to have tenancies in my area is that, even though the listed buildings are included in the systems that are there, the systems are broken and they do not want to put people into these buildings because of the problems they will cause when they move in. Even though they are included in the statistics for the sewerage systems, they cannot put people in because the systems that are there are broken. For me to have tenants in situ there and to keep them there, and for me to get more tenants into the areas where I live, is a problem and everything is around infrastructure, planning and enforcement. How can the committee or the witnesses help that?

An Cathaoirleach

I do not know if anybody wishes to answer that. Irish Water is not present.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

We have somebody who is delivering social housing for the country here.

An Cathaoirleach

Ms Farrelly.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

Yes. It would be nice to hear back. If you go around this country, leave the likes of Dublin and Cork city, and go out into the urban areas, you will see that the towns and villages are struggling to deliver houses.

An Cathaoirleach

To be clear, the purpose of this meeting was to discuss the tenant in situ purchase scheme. I am sure the witnesses are quite happy to answer questions on that all day because they have expertise and experience in it. If we bring people in based on an agenda and an invitation, it is unfair to ask them questions about sewage infrastructure. I am sorry, Deputy O'Donoghue. If somebody wishes to take that question because of his or her knowledge of it, that is fine. If he or she does not wish to, that is perfectly fine too.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

Maybe just to deal with it quickly, it is a priority for the CCMA to understand the planning permissions that are in place and the infrastructure required to deliver those permissions and activate the sites. There is a lot of ongoing work about site activation, particularly for the items that we control, in terms of roads, active travel facilities etc., but also engaging with the utility providers to make sure they understand the programme that is available for housing delivery. That would include Uisce Éireann.

On the protected structures and the town-centre or village-centre type properties, we are working to the town centre first policy now. We have a national office established through the Local Government Management Agency, LGMA, working with all of the local authorities to deliver town centre first and to encourage the occupation of those particular properties. There is lots of work under way. I am not sure if we can spend more time on that today, but I would say it is an absolute priority for us too.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

I thank Ms Farrelly for answering. I acknowledge what the Chair said about this being about tenancies in situ. Of course, I want to see people who are in tenancies at present staying where they are and I want to see people who want to sell their properties who have tenants in situ allowed sell their property. However, I also want to make sure that there is fairness across the board. I want to see people who are bad tenants or bad landlords dealt with as well because they are the ones who are causing an awful lot of problems. A good landlord does not want to get rid of a good tenant and a good tenant does not want to get rid of a good landlord. In the case that we have accidental landlords, which we have, they should be given the opportunity to have their building purchased at a reasonable cost so that everyone is happy and the tenants remain in situ. That is something I encourage. I accept it was brought in from the tenancy Act.

I would have a lot of tenants in my area if it came back to infrastructure and the funding for infrastructure was fairly put out across the country. If the Government and its predecessors had invested in infrastructure, we would have all the units that we require to house everyone in Ireland. You cannot build houses, apartments or anything in this country unless you have the proper infrastructure. If I had it in Limerick, we would not have an issue in Limerick.

Mr. Coilín O'Reilly

I have a response around the tenants. Two of the requirements would be an estate management check with regard to the tenant before we do the tenant in situ acquisition and a compliant rent history, as there has to be a clear rent account. There cannot be significant arrears on the account before the local authority takes it on.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

Lastly, I was informed today that if a tenant moved into a house today and gave a two-month deposit and a month's rent, and you did all the checks that you wanted to do, and if you wanted to get rid of that tenant if he or she was a bad tenant, the tenant could stop paying after the first month and it would be a 15-month process to get him or her out.

An Cathaoirleach

The RTB was invited today but was unable to attend. That is probably a question for the RTB.

Deputy Richard O'Donoghue

I thank the Chair.

An Cathaoirleach

I will go back to the tenant in situ discussion.

Senator Mark Wall

I thank the Chair. I thank all our guests for coming in today.

I wish to be associated with the words about council staff on the front line. It is important that we always take the opportunity to thank staff in housing and homeless sections, as they do great work. Whenever I speak to them, they are forthcoming with information and return calls. It is important that I acknowledge that, as theirs is a difficult job at the moment.

I cannot remember which, but one of the presentations referred to a tenant moving from one local authority area to another, for example, to Kildare where I live. What is the position as regards the house being purchased? I encountered a sad case yesterday of a person who had received notice to quit. The person rang one of the Dublin local authorities, which stated that it could do nothing. I do not know how true that is, but that is what I was told yesterday. Will the witnesses comment on this issue? Is there cross-authority co-operation on purchases under the tenant in situ scheme?

Mr. Coilín O'Reilly

A Dublin local authority, for instance, cannot buy property in Kildare. Local authorities cannot buy and manage properties in other local authorities' areas. It is not the done thing. It is better if local authorities work in collaboration. For example, we would speak to Kildare County Council about it acquiring the house. If a Kildare tenant came to Dublin city, we would acquire the property as a quid pro quo and take him or her under our wing as a Dublin City Council housing tenant. This is how the process works at the moment. We engage on a case-by-case basis with other local authorities and see how we can solve the issue for the person.

Senator Mark Wall

I thank Mr. O'Reilly for his reply. Unfortunately, it is more the other way around, with many more Dublin people in Kildare than the reverse, so the Dublin authorities will be seeing more of this. Yesterday was the first time I encountered it. Can a Dublin authority encourage Kildare County Council to purchase? I have received other queries on this matter in the couple of weeks the tenant in situ scheme has been at the top of the news. Is it under discussion that a local authority in Dublin would encourage Kildare County Council to maintain the house for the person, who has been there for almost ten years? It is a difficult case that involves a family. The response she got from the Dublin authority yesterday saying that it could do nothing for her left her in floods of tears, as Mr. O'Reilly can imagine. Are we going to allow Kildare County Council to purchase her house for her? It is a major issue for her.

Mr. Coilín O'Reilly

I understand the issue. The Senator correctly pointed out that there was a significant number of Dublin City Council HAP tenancies in Fingal and south Dublin. Those local authorities taking on thousands of Dublin City Council housing list tenants raises a question of fairness.

We would always engage on a case-by-case and cross-border basis. For example, we would have a conversation about the matter with Kildare County Council and see if there was a way to make it work. The want and will of all local authority staff is to do everything we can to keep people in their current properties and not see them going to the DRHE or Kildare County Council because they are homeless.

Senator Mark Wall

I appreciate Mr. O'Reilly's reply. When the phone rings, perhaps the local authority – a Dublin local authority in this case – could be more sympathetic and say that situations are handled on a case-by-case basis instead of giving an outright "No", which is what was said yesterday. I am just asking for co-operation and for that local authority to discuss with Kildare County Council whether the house can be purchased instead of saying "No" outright and leaving that person in floods of tears.

Regarding the tenant in situ scheme, a period of four months from start to finish was mentioned. When the person receives consent to sale, should that be within the four months or should it only take two months? How long should it be before the landlord and tenant hear back from the local authority? It is taking too long. I have received many queries from people who have contacted a local authority but are still waiting on a first response.

Mr. Coilín O'Reilly

We will take many of the points being made at this meeting back to the CCMA and the sector more widely. The tenant in situ process is new to many local authorities. We have been engaged in it since 2018, but many local authorities have only come to it in the past six or 12 months.

Although it depends, people should get an initial contact within one to two weeks saying that the local authority is discussing the matter. Four months is the average for what happens afterwards. One property might take three months, another might take five. It depends on access to the site, what is found on the site and the inspection. As the Senator knows, something might show up in the title search about a boundary that is not correctly aligned, for example. Every case is different but, in general, people should receive a response within one to two weeks.

Senator Mark Wall

I thank Mr. O'Reilly.

People living in one-bedroom units is a significant issue in Kildare. From speaking to colleagues, it is a significant issue everywhere else as well. Has the Department or the CCMA done anything to allow these people to move into two-bedroom units? The issue has been discussed by this and previous committees. The number of one-bedroom units being built and made available is limited. This is a major issue for people in one-bedroom apartments. Is any thought being given to how to accommodate people in one-bedroom units who are receiving eviction letters or entering homeless services?

Ms Mary Hayes

I appreciate the Senator's point, but it is difficult for us to prioritise in that way, as we would be excluding someone who had a child and needed that second bedroom. Dublin City Council requires two-bedroom accommodation for people who need it. To be fair to the Department, and as the Senator will see from the circular, it has pushed heavily with all local authorities for acquisitions for single people. One-bedroom accommodation has been the category where we have been able to make acquisitions all the way along regardless of termination notices and even before the Department was pushing heavily with us, both for Housing First and for the general one-bedroom list, but giving individuals two-bedroom accommodation would be difficult for me to justify in light of how there are families in hotel rooms with two or three children who also have a need for two-bedroom accommodation.

Senator Mark Wall

Can I take it from that that Dublin City Council is accommodating homeless people with a need for one-bedroom accommodation fairly reasonably and that it is not an issue?

Ms Mary Hayes

I am absolutely saying that it is an issue. There is a need for one-bedroom accommodation.

Senator Mark Wall

Okay.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I thank the witnesses for attending. In terms of regional co-operation where there is a HAP tenant whose application is not necessarily to the local authority whose area he or she is residing in, the CCMA is working on resolving this issue. How quickly can it be resolved?

Mr. Coilín O'Reilly

Currently, it is working on a case-by-case basis. The Deputy will be familiar with Fingal County Council. If it rang us to say it had one of our tenants and we had one of its tenants, we could handle the situation on a direct swap basis. A significant number of Dublin City Council housing list applicants who are in receipt of HAP are living in Fingal and south Dublin. If they all went on the Fingal housing list and were housed there, it would be unfair to people who had been on the Fingal housing list for a long time. We are trying to work through them on a case-by-case basis as much as possible.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Is a more structured approach planned or will it be kept on a case-by-case basis?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

Without exception, we are all working on a protocol for implementation and achieving the targets. In Fingal's case, our target is 125 acquisitions this year. We will have a protocol within the next week or so. It is a difficulty for us. As the Deputy will be aware, we have many HAP properties on the city's fringe that may be connected to Dublin City Council rather than to us. The protocol will be as flexible as it can be, but it will operate in the context of the relatively small number of landlords who are looking to sell their properties to us. It is a manageable issue, but it needs collaboration and an agreement between both councils. We need to recognise it as a problem and try to overcome it. We cannot fix everything, but there is a spirit of collaboration.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I thank Ms Farrelly.

Of the target of 1,500 acquisitions for 2023, how many will be under the tenant in situ scheme and how many will be made to meet Housing First or other priority needs, for example, people with disabilities?

Ms Áine Stapleton

The intention is that the full 1,500 will be under the tenant in situ scheme. Other delivery streams will help with some of the challenges that Ms Hayes referenced. For example, the Government has approved a targeted leasing initiative of 1,000 units.

We expect 600 of those to be delivered this year and they will be very much focused on the smaller sized units that would be very appropriate for exits from homelessness, in addition to the more general housing supply.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I want to ask the CCMA about the different level of discretion between local authorities. The issue of moral hazard was mentioned. I ask that this be explained further. Where is the moral hazard? Where is the difficulty if someone who is newer on the list is prevented from becoming homeless? How does that cost a person who is higher up the list? In fact, it is not of slightly wider benefit to a person higher up the list because preventing a family or an individual from becoming homeless is good for everyone overall, as well as being good for those individuals. Therefore, where is the moral hazard?

Mr. Coilín O'Reilly

There are two points to that. The primary point in our case, for instance in respect persons who have been on the housing list for two years, or have been in receipt of HAP for two years, and who meet all our criteria and come in to us. They have jumped the queue ahead of a person who may have been on the list for seven or eight years. That may have stopped them going into homelessness but there may be a person who has been on the list for a longer time and is still waiting while the others have jumped in front of him or her. That is one element of the moral hazard.

The other follow on from this is that technically there could be a person in homeless accommodation who is longer on the list with the exact same need as the tenant in situ applicant. Now that person, who is further down the list, is getting housed while the other individual is still waiting.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Does that not make sense? It certainly makes sense in terms of existing stock allocations. It also makes sense if there are a limited number of tenant in situ applications that would be progressed. We have heard it will be a limited number. The landlord who is selling the house and wants to sell with the tenants in situ only applies to those tenants in situ. The landlord is not saying, "I want to sell the house to the local authority and evict my tenants, but you can allocate it to the people at the top of the list." That only seems to make sense if we are saying there are a very limited number of tenant in situ applications that will be progressed. Does that not point to the need for the scheme to be expanded?

Mr. Coilín O'Reilly

The essence of the point is that we are not saying "No" to tenants in situ on that basis. We were just flagging the moral hazard of that situation. We are following through on every tenant in situ who comes our way and meets our criteria. One such criterion is not that there is a person higher on the list. We are not saying "No" to them. It is incumbent upon us as public officials to flag to the committee that there is a moral hazard associated with the tenant in situ programme. It becomes a balance of the moral hazards of a family going into homeless or a person jumping the list. We have, more or less, decided we are happy with the fact that we are stopping people from going into homelessness but at the same time the people who the Deputy represents are being pushed back down the list. We have to make that point and it is important to do so.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

If everyone is on a housing waiting list, they are not jumping a queue to get on to the housing waiting list. They are on it because they have a housing need that is not being met. Moral hazard is about if they were jumping a queue for an allocation that was there and taking it from someone else. That would absolutely be a moral hazard. However, when it is the home in which they are living and the choice whether to go through with the scheme that would save them from homelessness, the house is not part of the wider stock at that point. I am legitimately and sincerely struggling to understand it.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

We need to be clear that we are obligated to implement the tenant in situ scheme. It begins with a homelessness preventative piece. There are more options than just the tenant in situ scheme for these families. It is really important that they understand this because we do not want to generate fear for those facing an eviction notice when there may be other options available. There is a broad consideration when we are dealing with an individual family, and the moral hazard piece is part of that. Ultimately, if the best option is the tenant in situ option and the acquisition can be progressed, it can be taken as a choice in that instance. There has to be a broader consideration than whether or not the property could be sold to us. We have to take into account the family, who we are trying to prevent from entering into homelessness, and their circumstances and how the whole social-housing-need piece fits into it. It does not prevent the tenant in situ solution but there is a broader consideration than just the sale or purchase of the property.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I appreciate Ms Farrelly's answer but I would definitely have a different view on this.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Senator Cummins next.

Senator John Cummins

I will take up a couple of the points made by Deputy Cian O'Callaghan but in a different way. How many local authorities currently operate the choice-based letting system?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

I suspect almost all of them.

Senator John Cummins

If we take that as a given - it is not all of them but it is certainly most of them - what about when a property is put on the choice-based letting system and 100 people bid on it, but the person longest on the list is only on the list for six months? I know it would not happen like that but it could happen hypothetically if it were a less desirable property in a certain location. In that instance, it would go to the person under the choice-based letting rules. Therefore, a two-year rule, a five-year rule or a seven-year rule does not come into the equation.

Mr. Coilín O'Reilly

I think we have gone down a bit of a rabbit hole, but anyway. In reality-----

Senator John Cummins

I do not think so.

Mr. Coilín O'Reilly

-----in choice-based letting, the opportunity is open to everybody.

Senator John Cummins

Correct.

Mr. Coilín O'Reilly

Whereas in tenant in situ applications, it is only open to the tenant in situ at that time.

Senator John Cummins

Absolutely, but in terms of time spent on the list, the choice-based letting system is allocated based on those who bid on a given property and their length of time on the list. It could be that the person longest on the list who bids on a property might only be on the list for 12 months. That could happen.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

It is important to make the point that this may also happen with the tenant in situ scheme. We are not saying it is a preventative measure. We are just saying it is part of the consideration.

Senator John Cummins

The point I am making is that time on the list should not be a barrier to a tenant in situ purchase. What I want in terms of a commitment from the CCMA, notwithstanding what has been said in relation to moral hazard, is that time on the list cannot be used as a reason for not acquiring a property. If the property stacks up in terms of being appropriate for that family, if the landlord is willing to sell it to the local authority, if the market price is offered and accepted, time on the list should not be used as a barrier or a reason not to proceed with such an acquisition. I want the CCMA to commit to that today.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

It important to point out that we never said it would be an ultimate barrier. We said there is an overall consideration of factors. We needed to make the point that this is one issue that could be part of the consideration.

Senator John Cummins

I put it to the CCMA that it should not be.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

I appreciate the Senator's point.

Senator John Cummins

I am not hearing that commitment from what Ms Farrelly said.

Mr. Coilín O'Reilly

In fairness, as we said, every local authority operates in a different way. I am more than happy to take the Senator's point back to the CCMA and relevant local authorities for their consideration, but there are other stakeholders, such as councillors and people in the local authorities, who also have a view on how the tenant in situ scheme should work, which has to be taken into account.

Senator John Cummins

Sure. I have always advocated giving flexibility to the local authority sector. That is a given as far as I am concerned. However, what I do not want is that flexibility being used as a barrier to implementing this scheme to the fullest extent that we all want from a Department and an Oireachtas perspective.

I refer to Ms Stapleton and the RTB figures. I appreciate the RTB is not present to answer for itself, however, is it the view of the Department that the reason we have seen an uplift in the figure for quarters 3 and 4 of 2022 and quarters 1 and 2 of 2023, as outlined, is because there was a change in reporting by the RTB, or is it a coincidence? Previously, a person had to notify the RTB when a tenancy was terminated 28 days after being terminated. Whereas those notices now have to come at the exact same time as they are issued to the tenant. I believe this would explain the huge ballooning in those figures. I suspect those figures were there in quarters 1 and 2 of 2022, but they were not reflected in the figures we are seeing because there was a different reporting mechanism in place in quarters 1 and 2 of last year. Would that be the Department's view?

Ms Áine Stapleton

That is a fair point. The difference in reporting arrangements makes it very difficult to compare previous quarters with any confidence that we are comparing like with like. Therefore, the deduction is a valid one to make from the figures.

Senator John Cummins

On the acquisition cost guidelines, I am all for giving flexibility to the local authority sector and would like to see further flexibility given regarding the ceilings. It is true that the market price in a given local authority area may be above the ceiling. Should a local authority have to go back to the Department to get sanction in that regard? Is it not sufficient for the local authority to get the valuation, satisfy itself that the value is the market value and offer the figure accordingly? Why are we complicating the local authority process?

Ms Áine Stapleton

There is always a balance to be struck in delegating a significant amount of autonomy to local authorities regarding acquisitions. We have, within the cost guidelines, upper and higher thresholds. As I indicated earlier, the vast majority of acquisitions are coming within those thresholds. We are currently reviewing them. There may indeed be further bandwidth within them.

Senator John Cummins

When will they be ready?

Ms Áine Stapleton

Over the next few weeks. There are exceptions that will be above the thresholds. The Department will commit to turning them around really quickly when they come in to it.

Senator John Cummins

What is meant by "really quickly"?

Ms Áine Stapleton

Certainly within a matter of weeks, maybe less.

Senator John Cummins

Weeks could be too long. What I am trying to get at is that we need a streamlined process. Those of all parties and none agree that we need to move quickly in this space. The local authorities have a large role to play in streamlining and the Department has a role to play in enabling them to do so. The arrangement should be loosened in order that the sales can be completed outside the cost guidelines. I am confident that the local authority sector will attain market value for the units. The Department should allow full autonomy in that respect. I would like the Department to take that on board.

Ms Áine Stapleton

We will certainly give that consideration. We are examining our internal processes to turn the transactions around as quickly as possible. Obviously, we will get a sense from each local authority of the timelines they are working to. Therefore, we will respond urgently to anything that is urgent. We commit to having no delay on the Department's side.

Senator John Cummins

It is all urgent.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I thank the delegates for all the answers to date. "Moral hazard" is probably the wrong phrase in that it means incentivising high-risk behaviour because the consequences of the risk are being taken away, which is not the case here. I accept the argument about fairness in ordinary times but we are not in ordinary times. Even if the arrangement is for a defined period, there is a case for saying, for all the reasons Deputy Cian O'Callaghan outlined, that the argument about fairness in ordinary times should be put to one side. I welcome that the period has been reduced from five years to two years. Not all local authorities are that flexible. That is the concern some of us have.

Let me reflect on my own experience. I have a very good local authority whose staff work very hard and whose management manages it well. However, when I talk to landlords they tell me they are not called within a couple of weeks and that it can in fact take months. Landlords with a long-term relationship with tenants and who are keen to sell, sometimes at a discount, can be left waiting for four or five months before the council even indicates whether it is considering the purchase. I have had two cases of families who ended up in emergency accommodation because the local authority took such a long time even to initiate the process. The landlord, for very legitimate reasons, had to sell the property, and the potential tenants in situ were lost. We do not know whether the arrangement would have gone through.

I fully accept that a three- or four-bedroom property cannot be acquired for a single person. I understand the pressure to have one-bedroom properties. Where a young family is in a three-bedroom property – although, strictly speaking, they need only two bedrooms – the local authority should have flexibility to use its discretion as the family might grow and need three bedrooms. I am interested in hearing the representatives' thoughts on that.

The same applies to the price, which concerns me a little. I fully accept that we have to stay within the price caps, within reason. Many of the tenant in situ set-ups come well below the price caps, certainly out in the suburbs, where I live. However, if a landlord believes €10,000 or €20,000 extra can be got for the sale of a vacant property on the open market, this amount is a fraction of the financial cost, let alone the emotional cost, to someone spending a year or two in emergency accommodation. I am saying that because I understand that when the valuer does the evaluation, it is done with the tenant in situ as opposed to asking what the property would sell for on the open market if it were vacant. I would be interested in hearing a comment on that. What is the actual valuation mechanism? The various scenarios involve different financial calculations. I want us to protect the taxpayers' interests but if valuation is based on an occupied property rather than a vacant one on the open market, there is an issue. I have a real case in this regard. The Dublin City Council valuers did their job very well and the property in question was valued at €290,000, but the estate agent is telling the landlord that if it is put on the open market, given a little buoyancy, an extra €30,000 will be got for it. The landlord has gone back to the local authority. Again, I do not want to be encouraging landlords to inflate the prices, because they have to be contained, but there has to be some level of flexibility regarding the margin. Could the delegates comment on that?

There has been no Supplementary Estimate. Therefore, I am working on the assumption that, for the moment, any tenant in situ arrangement is coming from within the capital envelope that has been allocated. At what point does that change? At what point do the Department and Minister come back to the Oireachtas for a Supplementary Estimate? Could the delegates clarify that no additional resources have been provided above the capital envelopes agreed in the budget?

I am hearing from some local authorities that reasonable requests for refurbishment costs are not being agreed to. While we need to be reasonable and flexible about this, I would like some clarity. The most recent circular suggests that, in the main, refurbishment costs will not be considered, but some clarity on this would be helpful.

On the extension of the scheme to cost-rental properties, I appreciate the matter is not simple or straightforward. Mr O'Reilly is dealing with a case in this regard at the moment. Could the Department clarify what the cost-rental backstop is? Nobody seems to be able to explain it. If an approved housing body were to approach the Department today and, with regard to an individual purchase or multi-unit development, apply for the cost-rental equity loan, subject to all the various conditions, could the Department consider it, or are we awaiting a policy decision by the Government? Could Ms Stapleton respond to the questions directed at her, followed by Mr. O'Reilly on the few questions directed at him?

Ms Áine Stapleton

I will first deal with the valuation. It would be based on the vacant property rather than on having a tenant in situ. The landlord would get a valuation equivalent to what would be got if the property were put on the open market.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

That is good to know. I thank Ms Stapleton.

Ms Áine Stapleton

On the capital envelope, the Government has committed to making funding available. We will manage our capital budget as the year progresses. It may be that we will be looking for a Supplementary Estimate as we enter the second part of the year. We are keeping that under review.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

At this stage, no additional finance has been provided.

Ms Áine Stapleton

At this point, we are working within the Vote as provided for, with the capital carryover.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

What about the cost-rental equity loan scheme?

Ms Áine Stapleton

This is a new scheme that the Government is committed to in circumstances where the tenant is not in a position to purchase the property. The Government will introduce some provisions on the first right of refusal if a tenant wishes to purchase a property. That will most likely require legislative change. The backstop is such that if a tenant is not in a position to purchase, an approved housing body may do so and offer it on a cost-rental basis. As we are working through the details of the scheme, we will put administrative arrangements in place immediately so no one will fall through the cracks.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I wish to press Ms Stapleton on the administrative arrangements. I presume that in the context of the backstop possibly being available before the first-refusal legislation is in place, "administrative arrangements" simply means an amendment in policy terms to the cost-rental equity loan, whereby an approved housing body could, on a rolling basis, approach the Department for acquisitions.

Is that what the Department is looking at?

Ms Áine Stapleton

Without going into the specific details, we are looking at an arrangement whereby we can move very quickly to provide a solution if an AHB and a tenant wish to proceed with a cost-rental option.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

When will that be available to AHBs and tenants to consider?

Ms Áine Stapleton

That will be available very soon. Within the coming weeks.

We have indicated that costs relating to refurbishment will be provided for. The cost of acquisition plus refurbishment should come within the overall cost acquisition guidelines and, generally speaking, that is the case. As Mr. O'Reilly mentioned, there may be premises that require a significant amount of refurbishment and that is a different value for money assessment.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I fully accept that. For example, with the casual re-lets, which people still call voids but, in real terms, they are just casual re-lets that cost a bit more, will there be a notional upper limit? Will there be an upper limit in the context of what the Department is willing to provide or some indication for the local authorities on that?

Ms Áine Stapleton

We are looking at the overall price. It is the cost of acquisition plus the refurbishment as an overall price.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

But there is nothing within that in terms of the portion that would be refurbishment.

Ms Áine Stapleton

We have not broken that down. Again, we are giving a great deal of discretion to local authorities once it comes within the overall cost guideline.

Mr. Coilín O'Reilly

On the questions directed to me, if a family was in a three-bed and had a two-bed need, we would be flexible and have been in the past. As we said, we do everything to keep a family in a home and keep them from coming into homelessness. On the valuation, my understanding is that it would be open market value. I do not know what an estate agent may say to a landlord but from our perspective it is the open market value. We have to be careful about chasing and getting into negotiations. If someone can come back and say that the house down the road that is the exact same sold for €10,000 more then we are more than happy to look at that but we are not into getting into negotiations and we are not allowing landlords to use the fact that there is a tenant in situ as a negotiation tool.

Senator John Cummins took the Chair.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Senator Cummins mentioned the RTB report. The RTB was not able to join us today, but it did provide a report. It tells us that approximately 40% of notices to quit relate to Dublin. The county with the next highest number is Cork, at 10%. The percentage for every other county stands at 2%. As well as the points that my colleagues have put to the CCMA, I must state the following. In the context of every local authority, and no matter how big or small the risk of homelessness is, as Senator Wall said, it is important that the staff response is trauma-informed and that staff understand that the people they are dealing with at the other end of the phone are in a traumatic situation and are greatly unnerved. The contacts that Mr. Kelly said would be available for every local authority are really important. I know that Dublin has it, and it is great. It removes a great deal of the uncertainty and builds confidence for landlords that the council is real. There is a lot of negative narrative around landlords. They are petrified to even admit to owning properties. It allows them to deal directly. It allows them to believe and have confidence that the local authority is serious about helping them to prevent their tenant becoming homeless. It is really important that every local authority has that.

It is important that the process is expeditious. I know from dealing with tenants and landlords that the fact that the process moves expeditiously and gives certainty and confidence is really important.

The point was made about circumstances in which a local authority goes to the Department with an exceptional case. Local authorities do their due diligence. They will not come forward with spurious cases. We have gone through this whole debate about the moral hazard. It highlights that the local authority managers are not being awkward but that they are thinking this through and every case is being evaluated and understood. It is really important that when the Department is reviewing its processes that it is accepted that what the State is doing here is intervening to create certainty for renters to meet the social housing obligation that the State has to its citizens. That is really important.

I appreciate that we are talking about the tenant in situ process, but it would be remiss of us not to talk about the other measures and supports there such as HAP and homeless HAP. According to the report Ms Farrelly provided, 160 new HAP tenancies are being created every week. If 40% of the notices to terminate are in Dublin, roughly what percentage of these HAP tenancies are in Dublin? Does she know that? Ms Farrelly also referred to homeless HAP. What is the benefit to renters of the homeless HAP? What does it do in addition to HAP?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

I take all the members points on board about the fast efficient process. I will bring that back to the CCMA and try and have some certainty around reply dates and so on. Members can take it that this will go back to my colleagues in the CCMA and we will work on it. Responding appropriately to both the tenant and landlord is absolutely essential.

On the HAP tenancies, 74 are in Dublin. I understand that 20,000 new tenancies have been registered with the RTB so far this year. There is a rental market and it is important that we understand it is in place. In addition, there is good construction happening in Dublin at the moment. There are 21,000 units being built, and I expect many of those will come into the rental sector during the year. That may alleviate the problem and give back certainty to the tenants that face difficulty now.

I will ask Ms Hayes to respond on HAP and homeless HAP and give the full detail.

Ms Mary Hayes

On average in 2022, 106 homeless HAP tenancies created each month. That is down on previous years but it is still a significant contribution in terms of both prevention and exits from homelessness.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Can Ms Hayes differentiate between HAP and homeless HAP. What does it add?

Ms Mary Hayes

Once we assess that someone is in imminent risk of homelessness, we can offer up to 50% discretion in addition to the amount available to them. It is intended to incentivise people who are most at risk, either immanent or in homeless services. We also have a place-finder service which works with landlords trying to bring in properties. Most people who come to us find their own properties. About 70% of the take-up of homeless HAP is in the form of prevention and about 30% is exits from homelessness.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

And the HAP place finders is operated by the DRHE?

Ms Mary Hayes

It is operated by the DRHE across the four Dublin local authorities. It tries to source and work with landlords. One thing in Ms Stapleton's report was the number of people who are moving from HAP into social housing tenancies over recent years. One thing that place finders tries to do is to keep that tenancy available within the homeless HAP scheme and available to the next person who may require it. Some of its work is with existing landlords and some of it is trying to source new properties.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Does Ms Hayes an idea of how many tenants exited homelessness last year?

Ms Mary Hayes

I do, but I have to look it up. Is that to all forms or just in terms of HAP?

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

To all forms.

Ms Mary Hayes

In 2022, we had 456 families exited and 504 single exits in the Dublin region.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

So it was 900 in the Dublin region.

Ms Mary Hayes

Yes. About 34% of that was HAP for singles and 41% was HAP for families. The balance was local authority-AHB.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

The next slot is for Fine Gael. I will take it.

It was mentioned that this would be ready in the next number of weeks. The thresholds for cost-rental are €53,000 net after tax. Cost-rental is obviously not for social housing applicants or those in receipt of HAP but we did see the social housing thresholds increase by €5,000 at the start of the year. I assume that it is intended to revise the cost-rental thresholds in general but also in the context of the social housing thresholds changing.

Ms Áine Stapleton

I am not in a position to speak on the detail of that today but we will come back with details.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

Logically it would make sense that those thresholds would at least reflect the uplift in the social housing thresholds if not beyond. I would be in favour of going beyond. Is there a timeline for when the Department will be in a position to clarify that?

Ms Áine Stapleton

The intention is to have and administer the scheme up and running in a matter of weeks. I will feed those comments back to my colleagues and we can update the committee when those details are finalised.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

That is the administrative scheme but I assume the intention is to streamline both of what will be announced at the same time.

Ms Áine Stapleton

I do not have the details today but I will come back to the committee on that.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

Regarding the targets relating to the tenant in situ scheme, which are fluid obviously, the Department has seen fit to allocate those to each local authority. This is the right way to go about it. Ms Stapleton knows that I have long advocated for targets to be placed on local authorities across all the delivery mechanisms, including the repair-and-lease scheme, for which we do not have targets. We have a national target but it is not broken down per local authority. Is it intended to do this? If not, why? If it is intended to do it, when will it be in place?

Ms Áine Stapleton

We have moved to looking at a distribution of targets for repair and lease across all local authorities so we will share that with the committee. I know An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach raised that matter with us previously.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

Is there a timeline for that?

Ms Áine Stapleton

My understanding is that this has already been done, but I will double-check the details and share them with the committee.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

Has the CCMA received any information on that? Not yet. Perhaps it is imminent. Regarding wider leasing, Ms Stapleton mentioned the targeted leasing of 1,000 units, primarily one-beds. This is an issue when it comes to getting people out of homelessness. When local authorities have appeared before the committee during sessions on Housing for All, I asked each one whether it was in favour of leasing as a delivery mechanism. They all stated that they are in favour. Is re-examining the leasing model under consideration? Notwithstanding value for money, nobody can tell me that it is not better to have an individual or family in a long-term secure 25-year lease property than it is to have them in an insecure HAP property. A policy decision was made to move away from leasing. I have never advocated for it and I think it needs to be re-examined. Is it something the Department is considering?

Ms Áine Stapleton

I will clarify Government policy. Under Housing for All, the policy intention is to phase out long-term leasing and reduce targets over the period out to 2025. As an emergency responsive measure to homelessness, the Government agreed this targeted leasing initiative as a once-off measure. The initiative is focused on exits from homelessness and the type of units that will align with the kind of need outlined by Ms Hayes and Ms Tobin. It is a specific measure targeted at the current policy objective of exits from homelessness.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

Could the witnesses from the CCMA tell me how that is operating? If somebody owns or is refurbishing 20 one-bed units, is it easy for local authorities to approach the Department and say there is an opportunity to enter into a 20 or 25-year lease on those units?

Mr. Coilín O'Reilly

Regarding our general leasing ceiling, which comes to an end this year, we have loads of flexibility regarding how we engage with the Department. The targeted leases went through the Housing Agency. Ms Hayes might comment on that.

Ms Mary Hayes

I think I am correct in saying that we probably have a good idea of what they might be. Those are ones that will be deliverable because, for us, their purpose is to move people out of emergency accommodation quickly. They are ones we know will deliver. They are ones we have previously proposed and we know we can deliver within the timeframe.

Ms Áine Stapleton

That is the case. This was a specific programme. It was an expressions-of-interest programme that went to the market and was managed on behalf of the Department by the Housing Agency, so it differs from more traditional leasing where local authorities would go out and seek their own opportunities for leasing. This is a managed programme involving 1,000 units across a number of local authorities. We are getting to the end of that programme and will be communicating with local authorities on that.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

If there is capacity for a local authority to be able to deliver 20 units because they are being refurbished and are coming back into use after being out of commission for a significant period, can the local authority liaise with the Department and say there is an opportunity to enter into a long-term leasing arrangement for them? Is this option available to local authorities?

Ms Áine Stapleton

There may be space for that within the existing leasing targets under Housing for All, so we are happy to engage with individual local authorities on that.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

This really needs to be looked at. All of the local authorities have indicated that they want it to be re-examined. I would like it to happen as well.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I will focus on the gap between what the Government is saying about the tenant in situ scheme and how the practice is evolving on the ground. This is not a criticism of anyone. We are just trying to figure out how to close the gap. Notwithstanding the excellent work of the staff of the local authorities with whom I, as a public representative, deal, I have been contacted by a number of landlords who are very frustrated. They need to sell and want to keep the tenants in place. They want to avail of the tenant in situ scheme but find that the process very frustrating. I have had more positive experiences. It appears to be a very resource-intensive process for local authorities and AHBs. By its nature, it would take a considerable amount of time given the length of time involved in home sales.

Focus Ireland has made 12 proposals about how to improve and strengthen the tenant in situ scheme. Could the witnesses from the Department tell me if these proposals have been looked at? Does the Department have a view on them? Focus Ireland argues that the requirement for the issuing of a notice of termination, which can be very traumatic for tenants, could be replaced by a formal statement by a landlord that he or she is going to sell the property, is willing to sell to the local authority and is hoping to avail of the tenant in situ scheme and that would be enough to start the process without having to issue an eviction notice. Do the witnesses from the Department and the CCMA have a view on this?

Is it workable? Could those kinds of proposals be taken on board and implemented?

Ms Áine Stapleton

I thank the Deputy. Focus Ireland is a strong delivery partner and very much focused on the cohort we are discussing today, so we are happy to consider all the issues its representatives have raised. We are currently working through the recommendations the Deputy mentioned. On the specific one related to the requirement for notice of termination, one of the advantages is that it gives us clarity about the starting point and what is within the bounds, if you like, of this policy. We are reluctant to move away from that formal notice of termination. I understand where Focus Ireland is coming from in putting it forward, but from a departmental point of view, our preference is to have that clarity, so we are looking at a situation that falls within the parameters of the initiative we are discussing.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I appreciate the logic for it but I can also understand why a formal statement, where a person says he or she is going to sell and will have to issue an eviction notice unless he or she can get approval for this scheme or whatever, would have the same effect. It would be a formal written statement. Our guests can hear from the contributions today the amount public representatives have been involved in trying to help landlords and tenants with this and guiding them towards councils and all that, because apart from the case of Dublin City Council, this is a new scheme. The ability of tenants and landlords to navigate around this has been evolving and has not been easy. That is understandable, but it is about how we can get it onto a basis where people do not have to go to Deputies or councillors to find out who to contact in a council and where that the process is streamlined. It should be easy to navigate, easy to enter and we can take some of the stress and trauma out of it for tenants, renters and landlords. I have no doubt a good proportion of landlords who feel they have to sell want to keep the renters in place, and if they feel they can navigate this scheme without any kind of disadvantage to them, they will absolutely go down that route. It is about trying to make that easier for them so there is less disruption to people's lives.

Ms Áine Stapleton

Yes, and we certainly understand that. It is a point in time in someone's life where there is a great deal of stress and worry. Some of the measures we discussed earlier might be helpful, including having that identifiable point of contact and that humane approach from the local authorities that was raised earlier. It is that communication, that approach and that understanding that maybe takes some of the angst out of the engagement that Focus Ireland has been concerned with in putting forward this proposal. We will probably look at that package of measures around communication to make it as easy as possible for the tenant.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

It is about the tenants and the landlords; either or both.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I thank our guests for coming in. I have been listening intently to their contributions and those of the Deputies and Senators. I have been in contact with a lady who has a child and received a notice to quit last July. The local authority never purchased the house. The landlord has sold the house on the private market and now this lady is facing eviction in two weeks' time. On the opposite side to that, I have two landlords who want to sell their houses to the local authority. They contacted it in October and November last and they still have not heard a word. It turns out these landlords, who are decent, respectable and good people, never issued notices to quit because they did not want to put their tenants through undue duress and stress. They told the local authority they wanted to sell up while leaving the tenant in place and asked about the tenant in situ scheme.

I am hearing that local authorities do not have the staff to deal with the volume. It was expressed a while ago that staff are needed for acquisition, engineering, reports, valuing and legal teams. I know of no local authority that can go from zero, which is where we were this time last year, to where we want to be, that is, delivering the tenant in situ scheme at the volume we are talking about. We are being unfair on local authorities and to the staff in procurement and allocations. It has been unfair to tenants that an expectation has been created that is not being delivered on.

A comment was made earlier about delivery within four months. I am thinking of two cases I am dealing with. In one, a woman rented her property to a family who are homeless. The family have young children and one of them is on the spectrum. They do not need a notice to quit, but as it turns out, the only way the local authority will even consider purchasing that property is if the family are at risk of eviction. How many additional staff will be required to deliver the tenant in situ scheme at the volume being proposed, in our guests' opinion? The figure of 1,500 that has been proposed is a drop in the ocean if we are serious about stemming homelessness.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

To whom is the Deputy directing his question?

Deputy Thomas Gould

It is for both groups of officials.

Ms Áine Stapleton

On the broader picture, we have been working with local authorities around resourcing needs for their housing delivery teams generally. An additional 250 posts were sanctioned last year for local authorities with a specific focus on housing delivery. That gives a degree of boost to the overall resources available to local authorities, though I am conscious there are particular skill sets around this scheme. The Housing Agency also has expertise around acquisitions and has offered to share it with local authorities, so there is extra guidance and support available there I am sure local authorities will be happy to avail of. I think next week the agency is holding a workshop with the sector to work through the practicalities of managing some of the details of the scheme. We hope that will provide an extra bolster to the skill sets within the local authority themselves.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

I make the initial point that acquisitions are not new to us. We regularly acquire property and I think that is the case right across the country. It is an extension of that process. It is a business transaction. We are investing in a property. We are acquiring it from a private individual. That process is well understood at a local authority level. The scale of this is bigger than we are used to, so there will need to be a certain prioritisation. We have committed to that in our statement today. We need to prioritise the tenant in situ scheme and allocate resources to it. We have received some additional staff. Some of those posts are already filled and there are more to be filled, but there is no doubt the housing function in local authorities is a challenging environment and the staffing of it must be kept under review at all times.

I suggest one will hear varying reports from any business transaction, depending on which side of the transaction one is on. It is important we treat it as such with every landlord. It is about our having a fast, efficient process. I have already committed to that in terms of ensuring we bring that back to the CCMA to ensure that is the standardised approach across the country. It is ultimately a business transaction we need to transact with a private landlord and complete. On the other side of the equation is homelessness prevention, including working with the family at risk of homelessness and ensuring they receive the supports they need. We need to prioritise both and treat them in perhaps slightly different ways. I think I made the point earlier that reaching the sale agreed stage of the transaction is key for tenants to give them certainty about their future in the property. That is the priority we are putting on the transaction. Then the conveyancing and all the usual property transaction processes will take place as quickly as possible. Mr. O'Reilly mentioned a four-month period earlier. That is a very reasonable period in the context of a property acquisition and we will be aiming to complete acquisitions as quickly as we can. However, there are two sides to the transaction and we must bear in mind the business side of it must go through due process. It is not something that is new to local authorities, but we need to recognise there is a different scale here.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Yes. The point Ms Farrelly made on scale is key. In ten days' time, the ban on evictions will be lifted, and in April, May and June, we will see people being evicted.

The question now is whether people overstay or whether they leave on the date. Put it this way, if my family was facing eviction on 1 April, I would not be leaving. I would not leave that house and go with my wife and daughters to the Simon Community. That is what people are facing. Families are being broken up. Families are going back to live with their parents and grandparents. The local authorities are talking about the tenant in situ scheme. We are talking about four months. I recognise that delivery in four months is probably a reasonable timeframe, if not even a good timeframe, compared to other local authorities' property acquisitions in the past. I am from the Cork North-Central area. In Cork, there are 500 individuals or families with notices to quit, according to the Residential Tenancies Board, RTB. That is 1,050, if not 2,000 people. How are they going to be delivered with the tenant in situ scheme as it is now? If there had been a ban on evictions until next January, that would have given everyone the time to deliver the tenant in situ scheme. It is not going to be delivered in ten days. My worry is that we will see people overstaying, moving in with their parents or grandparents and families will be broken up. Ms Farrelly said there was some additional staffing. How many? Is there a figure?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

Regarding the tenant in situ scheme, if the landlord is proposing to sell the property and we engage quickly and are going to be the ultimate purchaser, the time for conveyancing and all of that is probably going to be more efficient with a local authority than it would be if the property was sold on the open market. That is a large positive for the landlord who wants to sell their property. From the perspective of the tenants, I refer back to the point so as not to generate fear for those people. We treat it in a number of ways. We offer advice and support. There may be alternative lettings available, there may be social homes available and there may be tenant in situ available. Tenant in situ is one part of the support we offer but it is not the only solution. I wish to make sure the families concerned understand that. The last resort would be homeless accommodation. We need to bring families through all of those steps before they need to concern themselves about ultimately becoming homeless. We need them to contact us so they understand what supports are available. I ask Mr. O'Reilly to come in regarding some of the other points.

Mr. Coilín O'Reilly

It is important to remember that this is a relatively new scheme in most local authorities. Some 367 are now sale agreed or completed and another 634 are in the process. That gives an element of safety for those people. We are hearing today that there are suggestions around notice of termination as being the starting point and maybe there is a different process. There were suggestions around the length of time on the list from the Acting Chair around whether it could be more flexible. It is incumbent upon me and Ms Farrelly to take that back to the sector, engage with the Department and take those as inputs to examine how we can improve the process and make it more streamlined and efficient for the tenant, landlord, us and the Department. We are not saying it is set in stone and we will never change it. We are here today as much to listen as to explain and we will take those inputs away and come back on them. To be clear, that is what we are here to do - to take those as inputs and examine whether we can change the system to make it better for everybody.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

That is a very fair assessment of things. Will Mr. O'Reilly, subsequent to today's meeting, send the committee a breakdown of those that have been completed and those that are in process? It would be useful.

Mr. Coilín O'Reilly

No problem.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I am willing to let Deputy Gould in if he has a question he wants to put, as long as it is a question and not a speech.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

Senator Fitzpatrick is ceding her time to Deputy Gould.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Which is a first.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I do not want him to abuse our guests who have been very co-operative and helpful.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I appreciate that. The information they are giving-----

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

If the Deputy could confine it to questions, that would be great.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Regarding the case-by-case basis, originally people were saying it was seven years and then five years. The case was made that it is probably two years now, depending. I was at a joint policing committee, JPC, in Cork yesterday for Deputies, councillors and Senators. I raised the issue of the eviction ban ending on 1 April. Someone commented that Cork city had a good steady supply coming up for the summer, that it had houses. I think the witnesses touched on it earlier. There is going to be a situation in which people who are ten, 11 or 12 years on a housing waiting list waiting for houses that were supposed to be delivered will become homeless next month and will need a house. Some have been on the list for ten years and have been in overcrowded, cramped or damp accommodation. I get the point about the moral hazard there. For local authorities to be using stock built-----

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Tenant in situ does not do that.

Deputy Thomas Gould

That was a comment made earlier.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

We can clarify that in a moment.

Deputy Thomas Gould

That is something I have concerns about, because the system needs to be fair. I am not sure who made the point earlier. How do we balance that? I am not sure who made the comment earlier, possibly it was Ms Farrelly.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

She may clarify it herself but that is not quite what she said.

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

What we said in our statement and what our process provides for is feeding in the various factors. It may very well be that somebody who is at risk following a notice of termination is quite high on the social housing list and may be due a social housing offer, for example. That is why we feed in all of the factors as we are dealing with the individual family, rather than there being one-rule-fits-all. That is not the way social housing can work. We feed in the various factors in order that we can do the right thing and offer the most suitable accommodation to the family. I take the Deputy's point that people may be on a social housing list for a considerable time and of the understanding they are due an offer. We have to have regard to that family as well and their circumstances. There are conflicting priorities but all of our allocation schemes provide for a priority for those facing homelessness. That is a further factor which is considered.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I thank Ms Farrelly for clarifying that. A point was made earlier that approximately 2,700 voids were returned last year. There are 600 voids at the moment in Cork city. There is funding from the Department for 120 to be done this year. Why should local authorities be writing to the Department to get clearance or funding for voids? Would it not be a better use of everyone's time and money for local authorities to turn voids around and put in the application for the cost afterwards, rather than writing to Dublin and waiting for that list? There could be a list of 200 properties and 120 get picked. In the case of Cork, there are 500 properties and 120 get picked. I raised this with Cork City Council, which said it was going to do some of those properties out of its own resources. The point is that there are 500 houses. There will always be a percentage of houses in flux. The average is 25 houses a month that come back in Cork. Cork on average has 10% of the social housing in the State. It is a good barometer. I am calling for local authorities and officials to be given the authority to do the work and get the funding back afterwards. I am not sure who made the point earlier - it may have been Deputy O'Donoghue - that some houses have been empty for two years.

I know of properties that have been empty for four or five years. They are empty for so long because the properties are so old and it is so costly to return them to the housing stock that they are the last to be done. Surely at this stage of the game with the housing crisis, no property should be waiting for four or five years and local authorities should be given the authority to do that.

Ms Áine Stapleton

We can certainly look at that process. We want it to be as streamlined as possible. I think the question came up earlier and for next year we are looking at 2,400 voids. We would certainly be happy to work with the sector to make that as streamlined as possible. We can look into the issues the Deputy has raised.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Earlier the officials discussed the point of contact. I have been dealing with Cork City Council especially in the last few weeks since the decision not to extend ban on evictions. Cork City Council would be like every other local authority; the officials are doing their very best under a really trying conditions. They are trying to source properties everywhere. What is needed is to have a point of contact in each local authority and that point of contact would have a point of contact in the Department so that no one needs to wait on resources relating to staffing issues, funding issues or whatever. Will there be a point of contact in the Department? Is there one today if someone in the local authority needed help and picked up the phone? If I were to contact the local authority, has every local authority now identified a point of contact for representatives?

Ms AnnMarie Farrelly

Yes, we are all required to have one by 31 March or at least to notify the Department of that point of contact. I have also undertaken to go back to the CCMA to ensure that a more efficient and standardised process is produced and understood in every local authority. We will work on that immediately. If the point of contact is not known already, it will be known in the next few days.

Deputy Thomas Gould

A report was due to be published on 31 March. How come the date was the day before the eviction ban was lifted? A report is due by the end of the month; is that so?

Ms Áine Stapleton

As part of the arrangements under the circular, we have asked each local authority to report back at the end of March on progress to date and what is in train. We will continue to monitor as the year goes on. It is to get a sense of the level of activity and how that aligns with the overall distribution of the target we have set.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Senator John Cummins)

I thank the witnesses from the CCMA and from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. We have had a constructive meeting. Obviously, this is a topic that is of the utmost importance at the moment. I am sure the witnesses will revert back to the committee with whatever information is outstanding.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.13 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 28 March 2023.