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Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage debate -
Thursday, 11 May 2023

Messages to Dáil and Seanad

In accordance with the Standing Order 101, the following message will be sent to the Dáil:

The Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage has completed its consideration of the following Order in draft:

Planning and Development Act (Exempted Development) Regulations 2023.

Under Standing Order 100(2), the message is deemed to be the report of the committee.

In accordance with Standing Order 75, the following message will be sent to the Seanad:

The Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage has completed its consideration of the following Order in draft:

Planning and Development Act (Exempted Development) Regulations 2023

Under Standing Order 77(2), the message is deemed to be a report of the committee.

Sitting suspended at 1.52 p.m. and resumed at 2.02. p.m.

I welcome everybody to session two, where the committee is considering the Planning and Development (Section 181) Regulations on weather radar and the Planning and Development Act 2000 (Exempted Development) (No. Y) Regulations in relation to gas infrastructure. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy O’Donnell, who is accompanied by his officials, to the committee to assist us with our scrutiny. We have been circulated with the draft regulations and explanatory note. I invite the Minister of State to briefly describe the purpose of the regulations.

I thank the Cathaoirleach for affording me the opportunity to present to the committee these two sets of proposed planning regulations, namely, the Planning and Development (Section 181) Regulations 2023 and Planning and Development Act 2000 (Exempted Development) (No. Y) Regulations 2023.

The Planning and Development (Section 181) Regulations 2023 will provide for a temporary exemption from planning for a temporary weather radar station while the Shannon radar is turned off from mid-May, when it is being replaced. Section 181(1)(a) of the Planning and Development Act 2000, as amended, provides for the making of regulations for "classes of development by or on behalf of a State authority where the development is, in the opinion of the Minister, in connection with or for the purposes of public safety". The collection of accurate weather data is a necessity for the efficient and safe operation of society. The more accurate the data collected, the better informed the public is through more detailed weather warnings, better emergency planning and advice for flood management. The provision of weather radar data is vital for the tracking of storm events and the forecasting of predicted rainfall. Accurate information regarding weather radar is essential for safety in the aviation sector, while sectors such as agriculture need accurate weather forecasting for efficient use of resources.

The draft regulations propose that the temporary exemption will expire on 31 December 2023 and is limited to persons by or on behalf of the Minister. The temporary weather radar, if approved, will be installed and operated by Met Éireann on behalf of the Minister.

The draft regulations propose to temporarily exempt temporary weather radar installed by or on behalf of the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage under section 181(1)(a) of the Act. The temporary weather radar will be exempt from the Act except for sections 181 and 181A to 181C, inclusive. This is to ensure the proposed development under these regulations still complies with EU environmental law requirements relating to environmental impact assessment, EIA, and appropriate assessment, AA. Any proposed development under section 181A regulations must be screened for both EIA and AA. The temporary weather radar must be removed by the expiry date of the regulations, 31 December 2023, at the latest. Under the provisions of the Planning and Development Act, I am required to gain Oireachtas approval for any regulations made under section 181A of the Act before I can sign them into law, hence the presentation of these to the committee.

The second request for exempted development concerns the Planning and Development Act 2000 (Exempted Development) (No. Y) Regulations 2023, on small-scale gas infrastructure. These propose to insert a new class 29C into Part 1 of Schedule 2 of the principal regulations, providing an exemption for the erection of certain small-scale gas infrastructure by Gas Networks Ireland, GNI, to facilitate supply of natural gas to the end user.

Class 29C provides that the erection of a gas pressure regulating station or gas vent stack shall be exempted developments subject to the following conditions and limitations: one, the volume above ground level of any gas pressure regulating station and ancillary equipment shall not exceed 9 cu. m measured externally; two, a gas vent stack shall not exceed 3 m in height; and three, gas vent stacks shall not be fitted within a 5 m proximity of residential buildings. Any small-scale gas infrastructure not specifically exempted by this provision will still require planning permission in the normal way. As my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, mentioned, under the Planning and Development Act, both Houses of the Oireachtas are required to approve draft exempted planning regulations by way of positive resolution before they can be made. Consideration of these draft regulations by the committee is part of that approval process.

I commend these two sets of draft regulations to the committee, having regard to the urgent necessity to provide temporary weather radar coverage while the Shannon radar is replaced. The section 181 regulations are aimed at maintaining the recording of essential meteorological data to mitigate risks in the area of aviation and weather forecasting and warnings, including flood management. The approval of the exempted development regulations relating to gas infrastructure will support GNI in planning, resourcing and implementing its programme of works to install new infrastructure and upgrade existing infrastructure, facilitating supply of natural gas to the end user.

If, further to today's presentation to the committee, these draft regulations are approved by positive resolution of both Houses of the Oireachtas as required under the Planning and Development Act, the Planning and Development (Section 181) Regulations 2023 will be signed by me and the Planning and Development Act 2000 (Exempted Development) (No. Y) Regulations 2023 will be signed by the Minister, Deputy O’Brien. If approved by the Oireachtas, it is our intention to sign the regulations into law at the earliest opportunity.

I thank the Minister of State. They are two important regulations in relation to safety for aviation and weather and for gas networks.

I thank the Minister of State for the presentation. It is always impressive when there are more officials here than there are pages in the regulation. That makes us think they are exceptionally serious.

The first is straightforward. My only question concerns how long it is expected to take to replace the weather station.

With respect to the second regulation, it does not explain why the Minister of State wants to do this. I am not against it. For those of us not expert in gas infrastructure, will one of his officials or the Minister of State give a sense in plain English of what gas pressure regulating stations and gas vent stacks are for so we and the public can understand it? On the references to new infrastructure and upgrading existing infrastructure, will somebody give a plain English explanation so we understand? Crucially, my question is why this particular planning exemption is sought. I am not against it but seek clarity.

On the first point, it is hoped it will be three months. I will hand over to Mr. Moran from Met Éireann to go into more detail.

The Deputy will see there is an urgency in respect of this matter. I brought in so many technical people in order that people understand the issues.

Mr. Eoin Moran

I thank the Minister of State and the Deputy. The replacement of the Shannon radar will take approximately three months. As this is a project involving big science and a lot of engineering, it may take a few weeks longer than that but that is the estimated timeframe.

On the other points the Deputy raised, which are technical in nature, I have asked Gas Networks Ireland to attend today's meeting. I will hand over to Mr. Gleeson and Mr. Burke, who will deal with the questions raised by him. It is very important that the committee gets a full understanding of the issues.

Mr. Declan Burke

I thank the committee for affording Gas Networks Ireland the opportunity to attend today's meeting. The purpose of the gas regulating station is, essentially, to reduce pressure. Medium-pressure gas that comes into the outskirts of the city is converted into a low-pressure gas that is distributed within city environment areas to supply residential and SMEs. To manage the pressure of the gas network for safety, the gas is operated at a lower pressure where there are residential buildings, high density, or where meters are fitted internally. It is the standard mode of operation among gas utilities worldwide to reduce the pressure volume in a city centre area, as I outlined.

As to why there should be an exemption now, Gas Networks Ireland has large-scale work planned over the next number of years, including the next five years and beyond. The exemption is to facilitate a programme of work to either install, upgrade or refurbish existing infrastructure to comply with safety or changes in regulations. It concerns small-scale infrastructure that connects. The district regulation station is typically located adjacent to public footpaths and roads, where the gas infrastructure pipelines are in the road, so it is ancillary equipment. The exemption would facilitate more certainty on planning and a saving in time and cost. The level of effort required to install some of this small-scale infrastructure is somewhat disproportionate at present, whether it involves a vent stack or a district regulation station with a vent stack.

Gas Networks Ireland believes there are many benefits to the exemption. Outside that, we would go through the normal planning process. As part of the installation process, we carry out risk assessments, we look at the environmental surrounding, and we consider safety in terms of the position of the vent stacks and the district regulating installations. I hope that answers the question. If not, I will clarify further.

Does Mr. Gleeson wish to add to that?

Mr Bobby Gleeson

I do not have anything to add. I thank the Deputy.

I thank Mr. Burke for his answer. I have one supplementary question. On the process, Gas Networks Ireland does its own risk assessments, etc. Ultimately, where gas infrastructure is located on public property or in proximity to public property, is there an approval role for local authorities regarding the final decision? It is not unlike the discussion we just had with the NTA on bus stops and bus infrastructure.

Mr. Declan Burke

Yes, very much so. As part of locating any infrastructure, be it through the planning process or whether it is exempted, there is a discussion with the local authority and area engineers. There is also a discussion with the residents or businesses in the area. As part of the process, GNI is required to apply to the local authority for a road opening licence. An exempted development does not mean that the installation will just be installed because we also need to connect to existing infrastructure, including the ancillary pipelines, to bring gas into a unit. It is very much a consultative process that looks at risks, the environmental surrounding, aesthetics etc.

I have one question on the Shannon weather radar station that will probably be for Mr. Moran. Is it just that station that has reached the end of its life? Is there a timeline for when other stations will reach their end of life or is it just Shannon that is particularly outdated?

Mr. Eoin Moran

This is part of a national upgrade to the national weather radar network. At present, we have two weather radar networks that are between 25 and 30 years old. They owe us nothing in terms of service. The Shannon radar is overdue a replacement. That is why we are choosing to pursue that pathway now.

This exemption may be availed of for the other radar station, which is probably of similar vintage, when the State wants to apply it. It is a good exemption to have in place as regards continuing-----

Mr. Eoin Moran

We may use an expand radar as an approach in respect of that radar, but we have a few more degrees of freedom in that regard. The Cathaoirleach is referring to the Dublin radar, which is on a different project path.

I have some questions on the gas vent regulations that are probably for Mr. Burke or Mr. Gleeson. How often do one of these vents actually vent? Is it perceptible to a member of the public as regards noise or odour?

Mr. Declan Burke

During normal operations, the units are designed not to vent. It would be an abnormal event if they were to release gas. These are delivering pressure at 35 mbar, which is very low. As regards noise, it would not be heard. A passerby may smell gas in the area. The vent stacks are located and designed in accordance with standards and are located at a height of 2.5 m so they are not a public nuisance, if that answers the question.

I understand the vents are a safety mechanism that will operate if needed. Are there notices on them stating that if people smell gas in the area, they should notify Bord Gáis or whoever it is? Would members of the public know what they are looking at, when they walk by them?

Mr. Declan Burke

The vent stacks are fitted in close proximity to the district installation, which could be a metre or less. They are identified as a gas installation on the district regulating installations. There is also a contact number, 1800 20 50 50, for people in the event that they smell gas. That connects them to GNI's 24-hour, seven days a week and 365 days a year contact centre form where GNI responds to leaks within the hour. If these stacks vent, it would not be continuous venting. As I said, during normal operations they are not designed to vent.

Does the vent have to be located directly over the gas pipe or main for safety? Can it be located away from those by providing parallel or perpendicular piping?

Mr. Declan Burke

The vent stack is essentially a pipe. It is located within a metre or less of the district regulating station to minimise disruption to the surrounding area or ground. What I mean by that is the unnecessary opening of footpaths, etc. The vent stack is located as close as possible to the station but it is more about safety at a height level. It is at 2.5 m so it can be right beside the unit. It is more about physically undertaking the works to position it and secure it to the ground. It is then about the height, which is a minimum of 2.5 m. In the event it was to vent gas outside normal operating conditions, since gas is lighter than air it disperses to the atmosphere.

To clarify, the Chair asked initially about the statute. This exemption is specific to Met Éireann and it only applies up to 31 December of this year. It is not an open-ended exemption; it is for a specific purpose to deal with the situation as presented. I wanted to give that little point of clarity.

I thank the Minister of State for that clarification. Does Deputy O'Callaghan have questions?

I have a few questions. Regarding the temporary weather radar station, I do not have any questions or issues with that. To me, that is very straightforward. I have a few questions about the small gas infrastructure. I can see the benefits of this for the utility and gas networks in Ireland in terms of the efficiencies but also for the planning authorities by not having all of these running through the planning system. The gas pressure regulating installations are somewhat visually obtrusive. They are not the kind of thing people would necessarily want right outside their home or business. I take the point Gas Networks Ireland has made about not going in to a property without discussion with the local authority, residents, and businesses, with regard to issues like aesthetics. Is there a commitment on the record from Gas Networks Ireland that if these regulations change, we are not going to have residents or business owners who find these problematic, finding them appearing right outside their premises or homes? Is there a distance restriction placed into the regulations on those?

Mr Bobby Gleeson

I will take that question. I can put on the record that GNI absolutely commits to working with residents in local areas where we put in any such installation as is considered here. As my colleague said, we also work closely with local authorities, local roads engineers and planning engineers within the council. To be fair, those personnel within the local authority are probably the best representatives of local residents and they challenge us when residents are not happy. We have had projects in the past where we have moved our proposed installations to satisfy residents. For the most part, the type of installations we are talking about are like-for-like replacements of existing aged assets which are being upgraded on safety grounds. It is only on very rare occasions these days that we have new customers on the gas network necessitating the installation of new assets. Generally, as they are for customers looking for the service, there is generally no objection to the installation. We absolutely pay attention to residents. We commit to paying attention to residents and we do that both publicly with residents and through the local authority.

I thank Mr. Gleeson for that. It is small infrastructure but it is not necessarily the stuff people want right on their doorstep and they can have concerns around it.

On the gas vent stacks and the fact that they will not be fitted within a 5 m proximity to residential buildings, 5 m is not a huge distance. Certainly, plenty of householders would not be terribly happy with something like that going 6 m outside their front door or front window. How is the 5 m limit arrived at? Will the Minister of State or the Department answer on that point? Where did the 5 m limit come from and why is it set at just 5 m?

I will get Mr. Burke to deal with that.

I am asking if this limit was arrived at by the Department or the Minister of State himself? If it was arrived at by Gas Networks Ireland suggesting it, that would be useful to know.

It was arrived at in consultation with Gas Networks Ireland and it is based on international standard. I will let Mr. Sheridan deal with it on behalf on the Department and we might go back then to Gas Networks Ireland. It is a technical point and an important one. Will Mr. Sheridan give a quick overview in terms of the Department? Then we will go to Mr. Burke as well.

Mr. Terry Sheridan

Briefly, this exemption has been under discussion for a period of time with Gas Networks Ireland. We have gone into quite a lot of detail on what arrangements apply in other jurisdictions. We were quite happy that the proposals in these draft regulations stack up from environmental, public health, and distancing requirements in terms of not causing any health or other impacts for local residents. The 5 m limit relates to the curtilage of the nearest house, not to the actual house. I will pass on to Gas Networks Ireland to elaborate further.

Mr. Declan Burke

Once Gas Networks Ireland is installing these, as mentioned earlier, we undertake a risk assessment in line with national and European standards. The risk assessment that is done on the location of the gas vents stack looks at a number of factors. It is actually a minimum of 1.5 m that these vent stacks can be located in proximity to properties, be it residential or commercial. Obviously, Gas Networks Ireland takes aesthetics into consideration. Nobody wants one of these beside their house. Typically, these are installed 3 m away from properties. Where we can, we will install them further away. The 5 m limit is a general guideline in terms of achieving that but we also want to minimise the amount of disruption in the area. We look to putting these units in secluded areas where possible. At the same time, where you put in the district regulating installation, you have to open to the ground to the vent stack. Again, it is to minimise that disruption. Hence, we arrived at the 5 m limit. The standard permits 1.5 m but as I said, we do not install them that close to properties.

Just to add to that, the Department obviously had the discussions. Gas Networks Ireland came back with the 1.5 m limit. The Department and the officials reviewed it and effectively looked for the 5 m limit. Therefore, it is a request of the Department to Gas Networks Ireland. It is just under three times above what Gas Networks Ireland was providing. It was very much a view of the Department in terms of safety measures that it looked for a much higher limit, which Gas Networks Ireland has agreed to provide. It will be in the regulation. The limit is from the curtilage, that is, the outside wall of the house as distinct from the front door.

I thank the Minister of State for that. There is a big difference between the curtilage, where people have it, and in some higher density housing where there is no curtilage.

I appreciate that.

It could be just 5 m from a front door or a front window. There are also differences between actual safety, people's perceptions and people feeling comfortable in their home and not having something obtrusive outside.

They are required to apply to the local authority for a road opening. There is a process there. It is not entirely exempted from a process; it is just exempted from the particular formal planning.

I mention one final thing. There is a 5 m requirement for the gas vent stacks but there is no metre requirement in terms of the gas pressure regulating stations. There is no distance required for those in terms of the exempted development regulations? Is that correct?

Mr. Declan Burke

I might pick up on that. There is a requirement-----

And why is there not.

Mr. Declan Burke

There is a minimum distance. Depending on the pressure of the gas coming into it, there is a minimum of anything from 1 m to 3 m.

Anything from 1 m to 3 m is what would be required but in terms of the exempted development, there is no distance required. Is that the case in the regulations? Why not have a limit? This is for the gas pressure regulation station. I am taking my information from the opening statement, where 5 m is referred to for the gas vent stacks but there is no minimum distance for the gas regulation stations. They are the kind of thing people would not necessarily want right outside their front door or home.

We are basing this on international standards. Obviously, the Department has been in consultation with Gas Networks Ireland.

I will ask Mr. Burke to elaborate a bit more on that in view of the fact that the Deputy is drawing attention to a particular point. Can Mr. Burke provide reassurance in the context of distances?

Mr. Declan Burke

The regulating stations would be a minimum of 3 m from properties. It depends on the pressure. There are medium-pressure and low-pressure mains that go into these installations. We have up to 1,200 installations across the gas network. None of them is located in close proximity, namely, 1 m, of a dwelling house. Again, there is a consultation process with local authorities and residents. We look to install them remotely or in areas secluded from properties. This is because we are conscious of the aesthetics in the surrounding areas and that nobody wants them, so it is a case of trying to find a suitable location in consultation with the local authority, be it green areas or on the edge of the road. Typically, they are well in excess of the distances quoted away.

I appreciate that answer, but I am just trying to get clarification as to why the Department looked for a 5 m minimum distance for gas vent stacks but why it did not look for any minimum distance in the context of gas pressure regulation.

There are no emissions. It was based on the fact that there are emissions from the gas vent, but there are also no emissions from the regulator.

I appreciate that, but there is a visual intrusion and effect on the aesthetics. Most people would not want that right outside their homes.

Is Mr. Burke not talking about-----

Why put in a minimum distance in terms of exempted development regulations then? Anything else would have to go through the planning process.

At the moment, Gas Networks Ireland is talking about replacing existing gas vent stacks, not about providing new regulating stations. Could Mr. Burke indicate if that is correct? Is that the intention now?

Mr. Declan Burke

There is a mixture of refurbishment of existing assets, which is replacement and also there is going to be an element of new installations where we have to comply with standards or regulations. We will have new district regulation installations and associated vent stacks.

When Gas Networks Ireland goes to a local authority, does it require a minimum distance from residential dwellings? The existing regulating stations are already in place and the existing stacks are also in situ but is Gas Networks Ireland required to apply to local authorities for the provision of new facilities? Is anything set down in the requirements on distance?

Mr. Declan Burke

Gas Networks Ireland undertakes the risk assessment and has identified a minimum of 1.5 m from properties. The regulating station does not vent itself, per se. There is a device inside the regulating station called a relief valve, and that is what vents. Inside the station, we essentially run a pipe from that device externally to this vent stack, which needs to be a minimum of 1.5 m from a dwellings or a business, and, as I indicated, it has a height of 2.5 m. It is really about the vent stack.

Does the regulating station cause any emissions?

Mr. Declan Burke

No. In normal operation, the regulation station does not give rise to emissions However, there is a device inside it called the relief valve that does cause emissions. Essentially, with the compliance with safety regulations, rather than it emitting gas or releasing gas inside the district regulating station, Gas Networks Ireland is piping the gas to the vent stack, to a height of 2.5 m, so it dissipates safely into the atmosphere. Therefore, it is not a nuisance factor at ground level or for passersby.

What is the interaction of Gas Networks Ireland with local residents if it proposes a new regulating station?

Mr. Declan Burke

Our approach, if we were installing a new regulating station, would be to go out and survey the area. We speak to the local area engineer to get knowledge of the area and suitability. We also ascertain if there are residents' committees. We knock on doors. We approach the public and say who we are and that we are looking to install a gas regulation station. We have developed a list of frequently asked questions for the general public. There is very much a consultation process. We are minded as we go through the planning process that queries may arise or we are asked by the planning authority what level of consultation Gas Networks Ireland has completed. It is very much a consultation process.

I appreciate those answers. My view is that there should be a minimum distance for the exempted development for gas pressure regulation stations the same as there is for gas vent stacks. That would be a good approach.

That is a fair comment. We will take the matter under advisement. I am substituting for the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, today because he had to attend another event. We take the point. The officials will go back and look at it and come back to the committee again. It is not being done on the basis that it is not required internationally or that, technically, there are no emissions coming from the regulating station, they are coming from a vent in respect of which permission is not required. Nonetheless, the committee has raised this point. Is it a point that the Deputy feels strongly about?

Yes, on the basis that if the regulations go through, this could go up right outside someone's front door without the need for planning. It is fair to have a minimum distance if it is going to be exempted development. Otherwise, it could go through the planning process.

The Minister and I will look at the matter in tandem with the officials. We will take it under advisement. We will come back to the committee.

That concludes our consideration of both sets of regulations the Minister of State has brought before us. As we have now completed our consideration-----

We welcome the engagement. The committee has raised a very important point. We will go back and discuss it and revert to the committee on the outstanding issue. We very much take it on board. That is why we welcome these engagements.

I thank the Minister of State. The clerk will send a message to the Clerks of the Dáil and Seanad in accordance with Standing Orders 101 and 75, respectively. I thank the Minister of State for his attendance.

Does that relate to radar?

That is both sets of regulations that we have assessed, which is the temporary radar and the gas.

If the Chair could hold on a moment. I want to be careful. We would like the radar regulation to be referred by the committee now to the Houses of the Oireachtas but on the second regulation we have agreed to take under advisement the points raised by Deputy Cian O'Callaghan into consideration and to revert back to the committee.

I will just clarify that. We have finished our consideration of the temporary radar regulation. That one will be referred immediately under Standing Orders 101 and 75, respectively. We will return to the gas regulation-----

We will come back with a revised proposal to the committee on the gas regulation.

We cannot make any changes but the Minister-----

We want to decouple the two today.

I presume that means the motion that will be tabled to the Dáil next week will now just deal with one regulation and not two. Is that what the Minister of State is saying?

The Minister of State can refer back to us, and we can carry out further consideration on the gas regulation. I thank the Minister of State and his officials for their assistance today.

There are a number of other exemptions, so we will obviously revert to the committee. The radar regulation has been referred but we will come back with a revised proposal on the second one.

We are finished with the radar regulation. That is done and dusted.

It is no longer on our radar.

I thank the representatives from Gas Networks Ireland for their assistance today.

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