Skip to main content
Normal View

Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage debate -
Thursday, 1 Jun 2023

General Scheme of the Land Value Sharing and Urban Development Zones Bill 2022: Discussion (Resumed)

I welcome everybody to the meeting. This is our final meeting of pre-legislative scrutiny of the general scheme of the land value sharing and urban development zones Bill 2022. I welcome from the Institute of Professional Auctioneers and Valuers, IPAV, Mr. Donald MacDonald, director of Hooke and MacDonald, and Mr. Patrick Davitt, chief executive of IPAV. From the Construction Industry Federation and the Irish Home Builders Association, IHBA, we are joined by Mr. Conor O'Connell, director of housing and planning; Mr. Hubert Fitzpatrick, director general designate of the CIF; and Mr. Michael Kelleher, chairman of the IHBA. They are very welcome. From Irish Institutional Property, IIP, we are joined by Mr. Pat Farrell, CEO, and Mr. Brian Moran, chair of the IIP research committee. I thank them all for attending and assisting us in dealing with this important planning legislation. We have had several sessions with other experts and we are keen to hear the witnesses' perspective and views. Many of them have been here before and know the routine we follow.

I will read a short note on privilege before we begin. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, to participate in public meetings. Witnesses attending in the committee room are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions to today's meeting. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. We do not have any witnesses attending remotely. Members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy. It is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite Mr. MacDonald to make his opening statement.

Mr. Donald MacDonald

I am director of Hooke and MacDonald and a member of IPAV. I am joined by Mr. Davitt, chief executive of IPAV. I thank the committee for its invitation. We are pleased to be here to contribute to its scrutiny of this critically important Bill.

Housing for All contains some very good ideas. A proposal to capture and share in part of the uplift in value from improving the land value of holdings from a lower to a higher use value is a good one, provided it is properly structured and the benefits accruing can be utilised for funding critical local infrastructure. It is our belief the contents of the Bill, as presently structured, would not achieve the desired outcome.

In fact, it is going to impede the supply of new homes throughout the country. Viability, the complexity of housing delivery and funding are major factors in preventing thousands of new homes from being constructed around Ireland. The delays in the planning system, increasing building regulations and increasing costs are making the sector unworkable. The proposed measures would add a tax to lands that are already overburdened with non-construction expenses in the delivery of houses.

From a review of the market and activity in cities and towns around the country by IPAV member firms, it is evident that although there is a critical shortage of homes for sale and rental, the building industry has been overtaxed and over-regulated. Small builders, many of them long-established, reputable family businesses are being forced to close and cease building. Their expertise and commitment to housing delivery are being lost. Their workforces are being disbanded. It is no longer feasible for them to acquire sites and fund construction.

Two of the markets that our firm has carried out research on are Kilkenny and Galway. This review clearly shows that the delivery of new homes has been impeded not just by delays and difficulties in obtaining planning permission, but also by factors which are making land and sites unfeasible for them to be acquired and built on. Both in Kilkenny and Galway successful new industries have been attracted from home and abroad. Yet both, like other areas of the country, are unable to provide houses for the employees of these companies and risk losing out on future investment. The land value sharing Bill, as presently constituted, will unfortunately add further negativity to this predicament.

Like many areas of the country, there is a strong demand for houses in Kilkenny from first-time buyers, people trading up, people trading down and renters. There were only 194 new estate houses built in Kilkenny in 2022 and 660 were built in a five-year period to 2022. That is an average of 132 houses for a population of over 100,000. In the five-year period to 2022, there were only 198 apartments built in the city and county, fewer than 40 apartments a year, yet many sites have a requirement for high-density housing as a result of national planning policy.

There are a number of unintended consequences of the land value sharing Bill. It will distort the land market, which is needed for housing supply. It will create more uncertainty, overburden development projects with more taxation, increase non-viability, reduce housing commencements and increase the cost of housing for first-time buyers. The land value sharing Bill exploratory memorandum states: “a key challenge in implementing LVS is ensuring that the mechanism captures fair value for the State but avoids disincentivising housing supply”. As currently drafted and based on the current crisis in the housing development sector, the proposed measures will further disincentivise housing.

We have been here before. Less than ten years ago, there was an 80% capital gains tax on land that was rezoned. It was removed by the then Minister, Michael Noonan, in order to stimulate the supply of housing. Now we are going backwards. Only in the last six weeks, the Government reduced levies on a temporary basis to stimulate housing supply. This land value sharing Bill is doing the exact opposite of this. The land value sharing Bill explanatory memorandum states, “Overall, it is considered that the measure is necessary, proportionate, fair/consistent, effective, and will operate with transparency and accountability”. We do not believe that this is the case and we do not believe that the process to get to this point has been either. There are a number of technical points relating to the Bill, which we addressed in the note we submitted in advance of today's meeting. We do not have time to cover them all in this verbal opening statement, but we would be glad to discuss them at any stage.

What would we suggest? We would suggest that we put a pause on the current process and allow for additional engagement with the relevant parties in order that the various stakeholders, the Government, the Oireachtas, the charitable and private sectors can fully understand the consequences - including unintended ones - of the proposals and adjust the proposed legislation, if necessary, to ensure it is equitable and workable at a practical level and not an impediment to future housing supply.

Last, we suggest that the Indecon report is published to allow various stakeholders to understand the arguments behind the changes to the proposed tax and contest them through future discourse and various stakeholder engagements.

Who will make the opening statement on behalf of the Irish Home Builders Association?

Mr. Hubert Fitzpatrick

The Irish Home Builders Association is a constituent association of the Construction Industry Federation. Connor O'Connell, the director of the Irish Home Builders Association, will issue the opening statement.

Mr. Conor O'Connell

I thank the committee members for the opportunity to speak to them today in relation to this proposed legislation. The Irish Home Builders Association is a constituent association of the Construction Industry Federation and represents hundreds of home builders of all sizes across Ireland. The association supports Irish home builders to deliver quality, affordable homes to home buyers and others.

A priority for the IHBA is to deliver more homes for more people so we can offer people the security of their own home. The past number of years have been particularly difficult for those aspiring home buyers who have struggled against the lack of supply and affordability. Despite the challenges, house builders increased output by 45% last year in comparison to the previous year and 30,000 new homes were constructed in 2022. There are many different reports on how many houses are needed for 2023, from 33,500 in Housing for All and up to 62,000 in a much-publicised Housing Commission report. Whatever the case, the number of houses we need to supply is much greater than the number we are currently building. To deliver more homes we need more zoned land, more infrastructure, more planning permissions and, of course, a viable and affordable product that can be funded.

On announcing the public consultation for the general scheme of the land value sharing and urban development zones Bill in May 2022, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage stated that the land value sharing, LVS, measure was proposed to apply to all new residential zoning and to designated urban development zones. Furthermore, it stated that the proposal was intended to be based on any increase in value which arose because of the zoning, designation and development process. Where applicable, the LVS would replace development contributions.

In June 2022, the IHBA, in conjunction with Property Industry Ireland, PII, and IIP made a submission to Indecon International Economic Consultants, which was appointed by the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage to undertake an independent economic appraisal of proposed LVS options, outlining the key concerns for the industry. Our first request was that existing zoned land should be exempt, as the applicant or owner will not have had the opportunity to price whatever incremental cost of the LVS measure may account for. We must stress that land is a raw material for a house builder, and it is in the best interest of house builders and indeed the subsequent owner that land is purchased as cheaply as possible. All input costs are assessed by financiers and are ultimately passed onto the consumer.

Finance will be achieved for a housing project once it is viable to finance and there is a consumer or market to purchase the home. If input costs are stable, reasonable and sustainable, more first-time buyers will be able to afford a new home. It is in everyone’s interests that there are no further input cost increases. Indeed, any possible reductions in cost inputs will benefit everyone.

In April 2023, the updated general scheme was published, which differs in several critical ways. Changes include expanding the scope of the rules, introducing transitional rules and changing the interaction of the LVS contribution with existing costs, such as Part V obligations and development levies. These are of huge concern to the industry. First, the LVS is being retrospectively applied to existing landowners of zoned land, as opposed to newly zoned land. The tax is applicable at the point of planning for builders. Therefore, it is another input cost that will affect the viability of building and therefore the level of future housing output. Second, whereas the Housing for All plan and the original Bill had suggested that the charge would replace existing development levies, the updated Bill confirms that it will apply in addition to existing Part V and development levy costs. The proposal is therefore contrary to the intention of the uplift in land value being captured by the State to pay for public infrastructure. Where permission is granted for a social or affordable housing development or both, including development by or on behalf of a local authority, such a development will not attract an LVS obligation. This is equivalent to state aid, which will compromise the future development of private housing for all those wishing to purchase their first home. This will increase the cost of land as approved housing bodies, AHBs, the Land Development Agency, LDA, and local authorities will be at a competitive advantage over private house builders who are attempting to purchase land.

These changes in the LVS proposal are significant and, in the industry’s view, run completely contrary to the intentions of land activation, land price stability, attracting investment for residential projects, output and ultimately housing cost stability. The consequences of the current proposals will be the stalling of investment in residential land acquisitions for housing. More than 50% of the housing targets in Housing for All's 156,000 units are private homes. This will require international investment that requires stability and certainty of taxation and cost measures associated with housing delivery.

While there are various estimates, between €5 billion and €10 billion annually will be required from private sources of funding. There will be an increase in output costs as the LVS is now simply another tax on housing output. Some of our members estimate the LVS proposal as currently worded could cost between €8,000 and €35,000 per unit. That obviously depends on location etc.

Landowners will avoid the tax on the uplift when land is zoned. It will increase the cost of land in many instances. It will also increase the cost of housing. If the tax is not recoverable in the house price, new private housing output may stall with many housebuilders simply going out of business.

While there was support in principle and a historic call for land activation measures from the industry, there needs to be a coherent strategy in place for such measures to work in the way they are intended. They need to be supported by a fully resourced and functioning planning system. This is currently not the case. The commercial viability of residential development has become increasingly challenging. The LVS proposal cannot be considered in isolation. A number of factors are of equal consideration in relation to land cost and activation.

There is an upcoming review of the national planning framework. The long-standing position of house builders is that there is simply not enough zoned land in Ireland to cater for changes in immigration, household formation, population growth and access to services. It is simply the case that a lack of zoned and serviced land, in conjunction with exceptional demand, is the real factor behind high land prices in certain locations. There is a backlog in planning decisions from An Bord Pleanála and the High Court, and we estimate between 60,000 and 70,000 are delayed. A new planning and development Bill is progressing through the statutory process. A significant number of housing projects are currently stalled due to infrastructural issues. These include connection to water services, electricity supply, access to roads and public transport, route selection studies and capacity constraints within existing transport and water services. There have also been exceptional cost increases in materials due to the war in Ukraine, Brexit, Covid shutdowns etc., as well as the rising cost of residential development finance.

Housing delivery is being impeded by all of the preceding factors. Introducing yet more changes in public policy on housing is leading to a significant impact on confidence and investment in housing. It is not the right time, due to all of these constraints, and this proposal will introduce yet more uncertainty. The LVS memorandum outlines:

A key challenge in implementing LVS is ensuring that the mechanism captures fair value for the State but avoids disincentivising housing supply. ... [The] risk should not be underestimated particularly if the LVS results in higher costs to housebuilders, rather than reduced land prices.

This incentivisation of the reduction in land prices cannot be applied to land that is retrospectively taxed. The transaction is complete, the contracts signed and a price has been paid. It is not an exaggeration to state that many housebuilders trying to deliver housing units are concerned they may find themselves with sites they can no longer develop due either to viability, a market, or both, that can no longer absorb the cost of these taxes. Housing supply does not happen in isolation and many of the supply determinants are outside the control or resourcing of the house builder. The construction sector provides the necessary infrastructure for Ireland and relies on the State to adequately resource the planning system, and in some cases the legal system to provide planning permissions that will ultimately supply more homes. The current issues with development plans and delays in the planning system is resulting in the LVS tax becoming applicable to sites that would have been brought forward for development were it not for these impediments. Members have provided a number of examples. Planning cannot advance on tier 2 lands until it is proven that all tier 1 lands capable of being developed have been developed. These tier 2 lands, therefore, will be brought forward later in the development plan cycle, which means the LVS tax will apply. Lands dependent on infrastructural, service and road upgrades have been zoned for several development plans. However the delay in delivering the infrastructure means the LVS tax will apply to these lands. This is because of infrastructure delay, and not because of land hoarding.

The LVS explanatory memorandum states:

The main purpose of the proposals is to allow the State to more effectively provide the key infrastructure required to support development, including housing. The measure is therefore closely related to the existing development contributions scheme arrangements connected to the grant of planning permission for development.

Finally, since the Kenny report was published, a number of land capture mechanisms have been introduced by the State. There is a VAT rate of 13.5% on new homes. There are also the section 48 development contribution scheme charges, and the section 49 special contribution scheme charges. There is capital gains tax of 33%, and Part V housing requirements, which has recently increased to 20% of all units on new housing schemes. Consideration should also be given to the stamp duty payable on the purchase of lands at 7%. As a result, we request that implementation of this measure is paused and reviewed in careful detail. This is to avoid unnecessary and unintended consequences, such as discriminatory measures between public and private industry, added costs to the home buyer and further delays to the delivery of much-needed homes. We stress that this measure must be seen in the context of other factors such as the residential zoned land tax, RZLT, national planning framework, NPF, review, material cost increases and infrastructure. It is pointless and counterproductive to introduce yet another tax on housing output.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I thank the Chair, committee members and staff for enabling us contribute to this important discussion.

Irish Institutional Property, IIP, members welcome the concept of capturing some of the value uplift in taking land from a lower use value to higher value, and using the revenue captured to fund the required infrastructure necessary to facilitate that higher use value. However, there are a number of significant potential unintended consequences, which may arise were the proposal to be implemented as currently proposed. A key issue is the risk to the viability of housing development and of apartment development in particular. The explanatory memorandum notes, “it is evident that the benefit conferred by the zoning of land for residential development results in significant uplifts in land values". This is true in some cases, as laid out in stark economic terms in the Project Emerald report issued by the Department of Finance in April 2023. There is a link to this report in our submission. It is clear in many situations that zoning land to high density apartment development would create a negative land residual value. Imposing another tax on that already unviable situation would make it worse and create a lot of negative unintended consequences in the urban land market, and further limit new housing supply. It would materially undermine the ability to deliver the targets set out in Housing for All. It is critical that the LVS tax is structured to ensure that all the tax collected is ring-fenced to pay for and build all the infrastructure required for a particular project or area. Only when that land can be developed without a funding gap should any surplus funds be allocated to a wider county budget. The proposal, as drafted, will not reduce housing costs in any way. It will ultimately only increase the tax wedge in housing costs, which is already one of the highest tax takes in Europe. By introducing the measure as a blunt cliff-edge scenario, it potentially leads to a hiatus in the land market. There are many examples today of high-density sites that are already unviable. They have no land residual value, and are now at risk of an additional tax being imposed. The impact of this is already manifesting itself across the land market. It would be preferable to phase in the new tax over a five to six year period, at a growing percentage of 5%, 10% or 15% per annum, to avoid significant turmoil in the land market.

It will also have detrimental implications for funding structures and investments made in recent years. Many higher density sites in particular have already been delayed by judicial reviews and significant delays at An Bord Pleanála. As things stand, there is no sign this will change any time soon. It is imperative that the LVS tax reverts to the original proposal, and the tax should apply only to newly zoned land for a longer period. The so called transition arrangements will not be enough to avoid many investment write-downs. I recall that 65% of all apartment developments are currently being subjected to judicial review with an 88% success rate. That is detailed in the technical note submitted with our opening statement. This risk must be viewed in the context where around 80% of all funding for housing, including social and affordable, has to come from abroad. Is this the right signal we want to send to this funding? Initial soundings from IIP members suggests that the statement of intent to impose an additional tax on land purchased in good faith in recent years will only increase funding costs and make more projects less viable. The IIP is surprised that the initial proposal to have the LVS replace levies was scrapped. The market initially understood the LVS would replace the section 48 and section 49 levies, and the investment case and viability would be unchanged. As proposed, it is a retrospective tax on currently zoned land, which will have significant unintended consequences.

I will now speak to urban development zones. The IIP welcomes the idea of properly planned areas, in particular with the full calculation of costed infrastructure up front, and the requirement for development of a funding scheme. It is essential the LVS is used for this. We are concerned many of the lessons learned from the slow roll-out of strategic development zones, SDZs, where IIP members are the main actors, have not been addressed. The explanatory memorandum noted:

evidence from designated SDZs is that there has been a significant delay between the making of the Government Order and the preparation of the planning scheme, after which point there may be further delays associated with infrastructure planning and delivery. By this stage, it is often the case that changes to the adopted scheme are required and this results in further delay.

IIP members have been the main private sector and financial actors, alongside the public authorities, in bringing major SDZs to fruition. While a full blown urban development zone, UDZ, might be a good idea for a new town, it is critical that a less restrictive format similar to the strategic development regeneration areas in the Dublin City Council plan may be more appropriate in most cases, as long as the cost and infrastructure funding plan is also addressed.

Even then an UDZ will need more flexibility in implementation to expedite delivery, one of the key obstacles that has hampered the roll-out of strategic development zones to date.

In summary, the UDZ has the potential to be a positive enhancement of the SDZ system. The explanatory memorandum has identified one of the key reasons SDZs were slow to get started and in many cases are still stalled, that is, the need for a funding plan. However, there are many other issues that do not work in SDZs, in particular, the need for additional flexibility - without the need to change the whole plan – to allow developers to respond to constantly changing market and funding realities.

A facilitated engagement in a workshop between the Department and the main stakeholders in the major SDZs on lessons learnt to date would be a good way to do this. IIP members, who are the main players in this space, would be happy to participate.

Other than very large developments – new towns – it may be that a less onerous UDZ similar to the strategic development regeneration area, SDRA, process used by Dublin City Council is a more appropriate way to create coherent urban plans. Obviously, the proposal that a full plan for associated infrastructure would need to be added to the planning side is a good idea from this draft Bill.

We have very significant concerns on the negative, we believe, unintended consequences of the LVS proposals as drafted. It is clear that the authors of this proposal were not familiar with the April 2023 study, Project Emerald, for the Department of Finance, authored by KPMG. Reading the LVS proposals in conjunction with the Emerald report is very sobering. It is very clear that the LVS proposal will lead to many situations where a tax could be added to situations that already are not viable, putting projects even further in the red. The current proposal has the potential to disrupt and distort the land market and, in many instances, cause very significant financial distress to developers and investors in development land who have been subject to inordinate delays due to a systemic breakdown in the planning system, in particular, for the higher density urban housing that this country needs for social and environmental reasons.

The current LVS proposal, which in its basic form should in theory be a fair and reasonable idea, is very problematic. In particular, it departs from the previous proposal to have it replace development levies. It also seems totally disconnected from other Government initiatives to deal with viability challenges such as the levy waiver and Croí Cónaithe and its application totally ignores the viability insights in the recent Project Emerald report. Interestingly, the explanatory memorandum states "It is important to note that the analysis undertaken by Indecon is based on assumptions and an incomplete data set given the lack of recorded data on land values." It is essential that a major review of the LVS proposal is undertaken and that the Indecon report is released so that it can be analysed by the wider industry to identify any further potential unintended negative consequences in addition to those that are already very obvious to developers and funders of housing.

I thank our guests for their opening statements. I am not sensing a warm welcome for this legislation from industry. That is the benefit of having pre-legislative scrutiny. We get to engage with all participants and stakeholders. I will go to the members now. I call Senator Fitzpatrick for the first slot.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach. I thank our guests for their presentations and for their participation here today. The Chair was diplomatic. I would nearly go as far as to say our guests are rejecting it. We value their input. It is important. We spend all our time talking about housing and construction. From their perspective, everyone recognises the high cost, high risk and low margin, and yet we do not have enough of it.

It is welcome that there has been a 50% uplift in the past year alone. We would like to see that repeated this year and every year for the next ten years. We are coming out of a decade of undersupply. There was a deficit of at least 100,000 homes when this Government was formed in 2020. We need to see that uplift continue. I believe nobody, either in government or opposition, wants to introduce any legislation or take any action that would in any way undermine the reversal that we are beginning to see occur in the construction of homes. We are all on the same page in that respect.

In terms of their submissions today, I suppose my first question would be one that the public asks repeatedly. There is planning permission existing for 80,000 homes and it is estimated 44,000 of them are in Dublin. I note Hooke and MacDonald's study was on Kilkenny and Galway. Was there a reason Hooke and MacDonald did not study Dublin? Dublin is where we see the greatest housing need, the greatest demand, the highest cost and, I think we would all accept, the greatest viability challenges. When replying, perhaps Mr. MacDonald could address that.

Mr. Farrell of IIP stated that the Bill would create further problems where already there is an issue around viability. Perhaps he could elaborate on what IIP sees some of those "significant unintended consequences." Mr. Farrell talks about the lessons learnt in terms of the UDZs. Maybe he could elaborate on what those lessons learnt are.

We might start with Hooke and MacDonald.

Mr. Donald MacDonald

I thank the Senator. We are studying Dublin. The problem with Dublin is it is so big and there are four local authorities. We have been going through it since probably October of last year. We do research but our day job is dealing with clients. It is something that we have to commit a lot of resources to. As I have been going through the Dublin planning permissions - we have been doing that on a permission-by-permission basis - to see who the stakeholder is and to assess the likelihood of the stakeholder being able to deliver the planning, I have found that it is very complex. It is really on a case-by-case basis you can see that. Hopefully, when we get to a point where we can have output, maybe that can feed into the discourse in terms of this.

It is the case that there are many complexities. The Senator mentioned how many planning permissions there are in the system. You have to look at every site. Every site is different. The stakeholders are different. Their capabilities are different. I refer, for example, to their expertise in terms of delivering apartments. If you look to see how many people have built apartments in Ireland over the ten years, it is a handful of developers and contractors. It is very complex. It is very easy to say that people are just sitting on planning but this is the point that we made. Even if you get through the planning system, it is so complex to get the money to do it. With ten houses, you build ten houses and you sell ten houses. With a block of 200 apartments, you have to build 200 apartments. If you get the balcony wrong on one of those apartments, it is all of those apartments. It is such a high risk that it is really challenging. Where we have seen it, and we are doing it, as I say, it is just a complex area.

This is the area that is hard for people to understand who are not working in it. We work in it in that we work with clients every day. We understand their frustrations, but every day we are getting feedback where they are kind of saying it does not make sense for them to do what they have been doing for the past 20, 30 or 40 years. I spoke to a gentleman from Limerick yesterday - one of the IPAV members, Mr. Paul Crosse - and he said they are in the exact same position. We are seeing in Dublin, Kilkenny and Galway that housing delivery has got so complex from a planning, building regulations and even a funding point of view. It is a complex area and that is why we are saying there needs to be a bit more engagement in terms of the LVS proposal so that people can understand it.

When the Rebuilding Ireland document was brought out eight or ten years ago, I remember that along with Mr. Brian Moran and other IPAV members, I went down to the Morrison Hotel to sit down with the Departments. We explained across the table exactly what our frustrations were. When I was at something for housing for older people in the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham, we did the exact same. We told them our frustrations. I remember sitting with a lady from Fingal. She said that she understood what I was saying, she saw the point and where I was coming at it from, and that I was coming at it from the construction side. I said it was just not practical to say what you just said in terms of that.

Are all of those builders and developers developing and building private developments?

Mr. Donald MacDonald

They would be building a mix of private and social. A lot of developers-----

Would the social be in the Part V?

Mr. Donald MacDonald

It would be in the Part V or they could be building 200 houses where there is a requirement for 50 apartments and they would say that they would deliver those 50 apartments for social or affordable.

Mr. Conor O'Connell

To add to that explanation, that figure of 70,000 to 80,000 units is constantly thrown out but it should be examined. The Senator mentioned the figure of 44,000 in the Dublin area. In our engagement with local authorities, one of them said that 90% of those existing planning permissions are for apartments. I understand that Dublin City Council has 21,000 planning permissions out there at the moment. In Dublin city, it is all apartments really. Unfortunately in recent times with the rise in interest rates, real estate investment trusts have not been investing in apartment developments to the scale they were. Builders and developers have been seeking funding for those homes and it has been difficult to procure. It must also be mentioned that we are in a state of flux at the moment with regard to the apartment investment market. There is the Croí Cónaithe scheme, the Project Tosaigh scheme and the €150,000 equity play from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage in relation to-----

There is a lot of money being thrown at it.

Mr. Conor O'Connell

Yes. There are a number of different schemes that we would be very hopeful about. We would hope to see contracts getting signed over the summer to get those apartments going again.

IIP did not get a chance to answer. Could Mr. Farrell come in on the next round?

I will bring him in very briefly.

Mr. Pat Farrell

To be very clear, we said at the outset that we welcome the concept of an LVS Bill. We welcome the concept of taking some of the uplift from the betterment of the land and making sure that is invested directly to deliver the infrastructure that is required to deliver the housing units. I just wanted to put that on the record and restate it again. That said, there is an issue with the way the Bill is constructed, the retrospective aspect to it and the fact it does not have an offset for all the other levies that have already been brought in, which makes it one of the highest tax takes in Europe from the State's perspective in terms of housing. That is a documented fact; it is not disputable. That is a major problem and that will add further to the viability challenges that are already well documented.

The other issue is that if, for example, there was some proposal for a new tax on the housing market in the morning, the housing market would freeze because no one would move to make a transaction. They would be asking what the implication is, how it will affect the price and whether prices will fall or go up. We are talking about the same thing here with this. We are saying it should be phased and we are also saying it should not be retrospective. I might pass over at this stage because-----

I might just move on to the next round of questions but we can come back. I hear what Mr. Farrell is saying and I will come back to it. I call Deputy Gould.

I thank the witnesses for being here today. This is an important Bill and it is important that we get everyone's opinion on it. I hear what the witnesses are saying. The one thing we do not want to do is put any more blockages in the way of housing delivery. We are all in agreement. We need houses, we need them built and we need them built as quickly as possible. On the other side of that, we know for a fact that people have made huge profits on land speculation over the years. The witnesses have talked about capturing the uplift in value. I cannot see how capturing the uplift in value is an extra tax. I take on board some of the points and I am listening with an open mind. We want to get this Bill right. Mr. O'Connell mentioned driving up house prices. Looking at the Bill as it currently stands, does the CIF have an estimate of what percentage it would go up by? Does it have data on that? Has it done research into this that it could share with us?

Mr. Conor O'Connell

Absolutely. We are currently conducting a survey of members and we have some individual examples. With the permission of the Chair and the committee, we would like to submit those details after the hearing. We are also assessing the urban development zone Bill, so that is why we did not comment on it. I will give some of examples of how it is a tax on the output. A builder takes land through the planning process. A land speculator never does. The way the tax is currently proposed, it is applied at the planning stage, or post the grant of planning. Who applies for planning? It is the builder. No one else is going to spend several hundred thousand euro taking a piece of land through the planning process. It is the builder because that is their business model. They buy land as raw material, take it through the planning process and then build on it and sell the homes to whoever.

Regarding the estimate, we are looking at 30% of the uplift. If you take an average price per acre for zoned land - I am going to use acres rather than hectares, with the Chair's permission - of €250,000 or €300,000 up to €500,000, the existing agricultural use of that land, depending on where it is in the country, could be €10,000 or €15,000. Taking 30% of that uplift or difference would mean at least €8,000 per unit. The medium range is probably somewhere between €8,000 and €15,000 payable as it is currently worded post the grant of planning. If we cannot add that input cost to the land that has already been purchased, then it is going to have to be factored into the line-by-line item of the assessment by the funders. If we cannot add that on to the price of the unit or house, the builder will go out of business and cannot develop the lands. That is the estimate and that is how we worked out that estimate. We are getting more examples and we would gladly share them with the committee.

I appreciate that but I know of cases in my constituency in Cork where people have gone in, got planning and sold the project on. There are projects in my constituency that have received planning, have been sold on and still have not been built. We need to get those properties developed. We need to get those houses and apartments developed. I thank Mr. O'Connell for his contribution.

There are three projects in Cork that have availed of the local infrastructure housing activation fund, LIHAF. It was originally announced that the LIHAF would deliver 21,000 homes by 2021 but the Minister confirmed to me in a parliamentary question that by the end of 2022, only 5,386 homes had been delivered. Similarly, the Croí Cónaithe cities scheme aimed to activate 5,000 apartments. Has there been interest in this? Will these targets be delivered? These were incentives to get the infrastructure put in and get land that was zoned built but from what I have seen out of projected figures that has not happened, or it certainly has not happened to the scale the Minister said it would. Have IPAV and CIF a comment on that?

Mr. Conor O'Connell

Some of those schemes are still under way. The totality of the housing output has not been assessed with some of the LIHAF funding to date. There is still progress under way. Builders are still engaging with the Housing Agency and the Department on Croí Cónaithe and we would be hopeful that some schemes will get under way over the summer period. That is all I can say on those.

Mr. Donald MacDonald

My understanding is that Croí Cónaithe has only been approved by Europe. Mr. Moran may be able to speak to that. It was put out there in Housing for All and then in December, following Housing for All, it was spoken about and we were told what it would look like. It has only now been approved. Hopefully there will be an uptake but we will still have to see. One of the challenges is that people will only get the money at the end. We had suggested that the money should come in at the start because from a funding point of view it would make it more workable. We will just have to see whether it works. Hopefully it does.

The IIP suggested that the UDZs should be modelled off the SDRAs that are currently operating in Dublin City Council and not the SDZ model. Could Mr. Moran expand on how he thinks the SDRAs are better?

Mr. Brian Moran

The SDRAs are a somewhat lighter form. They are not as complex as an SDZ. Senator Fitzpatrick asked what the problems are with SDZs. From my experience, they are written in a complex manner. There are tables, charts, phasing plans and very prescriptive things in the actual plan and there is no right of appeal. There is a very complex process from a developer perspective and when you go to look at it, sometimes it is almost impossible to lodge a planning application under an SDZ because it has been done to such a level of detail and made very prescriptive and if you do not comply with everything you will not get the permit.

In the SDRA, it is under the city plan and it then paints a picture, if one wants a master plan very similar to an SDZ, but it does not have the same level of prescription that makes it very difficult for deliverability. Deputy Gould's colleague, Deputy Ó Broin, has spoken about this previously at this committee in the context of an urban plan. Where there is a smaller urban plan on a brownfield site, going to the level of detail that one would have in an SDZ would make it inoperable and make it very difficult for a developer. The development plan controls would be there overall, and then there would be a master plan, maybe in 3D, for that site, and then get on with it. A strategic development zone, SDZ, which is a new town that has many roads, parks, and a lot of other things to be delivered, does need a much bigger plan to work it through. I would definitely recommend, in doing an UDZ plan, that you should avoid the level of prescription that creates all these what I believe to be unintended consequences. I can speak about this from personal experience in looking at one particular planning application where there were 112 boxes to be ticked before the planning application could be lodged, and most of them were outside of our control and, indeed, relied on third-party developers and actors even outside the SDZ to actually get it done. This really tied our hands. As I speak, we are sitting on SDZ sites that we could be developing today, but it is going to take us a year or two to work with the council and An Bord Pleanála to bring forward change to a plan that, to be honest, everybody agrees should be done. The process, however, will take one and a half to two years to do. Be careful what you wish for in the level of prescription. I believe these plans are great but I would definitely have a lighter touch for smaller sites, with more prescription for a bigger site. As has been recommended, I would also recommend a workshop with the developers who have been involved in doing this, before it becomes hard-coded in legislation.

I would only suggest Mr. Moran not use the phrase, "lighter touch".

Mr. Patrick Davitt

I put it to Deputy Gould that from 2003 to 2006, the process of developers or land developers buying land, getting planning permission and selling it on was a lot more simple then than it is now. We were looking at an eight-week period for planning permission and then at a further eight weeks after that. Planning permission was a lot more simple. Now, we are looking at years and at judicial reviews and all sorts of planning scenarios. Not alone that, we are now also looking at a situation whereby, if this tax comes this way, we are devaluing the land at the actual start. If the developer must devalue the land at the start, there will be an actual loss to the Government in the devaluation of that land because the developer has to look at the land value as it is and take the tax into consideration. The capital gains tax therefore will be a lot less on that particular property as well; the 33% rate that is paid. Even if you get an extra increase in the land from a capital gains perspective, that would be brought completely down because the developer will look at the actual value of that land taking this tax into consideration. It is another scenario. It is the county councils that determine the value of land. It is not auctioneers or builders. It is like everything else, the more zoned land that is available, the less the price will be. That is where the initial problem is; it is because land has been de-zoned, not zoned. This is really what is going on at the moment. We need to get more land zoned. Obviously then the price is going to come down. If the scenario is that this tax is wanted from a community perspective or from a county council's perspective, then instead of bringing the capital gains tax to 80%, as Mr. MacDonald spoke about, maybe bring it to 50%. Perhaps take the capital gains at the beginning from the person who is actually making the money and let the developer or the builder get on with what they are doing. I believe that is really the issue here that should be looked at first and that it should be made quite simple, rather than getting into the scenario of this particular tax.

I thank all of the witnesses for being here today and for sharing their expertise and knowledge from what is happening on the ground. It is a very important part of this engagement when it comes to such a big move as this. This measure is designed to accelerate the delivery of housing and not in any way to disincentivise housing supply. This is why it is so important that we hear the representatives' concerns around unintended consequences.

I will focus on three points, that is, on the retrospective aspect in tandem with the non-viable projects that already have planning permission and are currently with An Bord Pleanála or at judicial review, on the concern highlighted by the IHBA and the CIF around state aid - I wish to learn a little bit more about that - and on SDZs.

Before I get to these points, I will comment on the reports. I hear what all the witnesses have said on the need for the Indecon report to be published and to be publicly available. I will take this up with the Minister. I also hear what the representatives from IIP have said about the report on Project Emerald and how this needs to be looked at in a little more detail and in conjunction with this. There is a body of work for us as a committee to do with that.

On the non-viable projects, at this stage I am hearing that 90% of the 44,000 or so planning permissions in Dublin are apartment blocks. Some of them are tied up in judicial reviews and some of them are not viable at present. We have Croí Cónaithe and many other housing acceleration initiatives coming down the tracks that, as Mr. O'Connell has said, hopefully will start to spark a little bit of movement over the summer. From my perspective, we have legislation coming down the tracks to deal with the judicial review side of things. If apartments are currently not viable however, even as we bring on stream all these new mechanisms to try to enable developers to build them, then we need to go back to the drawing board. Is this a fair statement? In that case, we cannot just leave that planning permission lying there with nothing happening on it. This is what this tax is designed to do. It is to ensure we do not have planning permissions lying idle and that we are actually activating sites. I would argue that if there is planning permission, if it has gone through all of the different planning formats - and perhaps has already gone through judicial review as well - if it has not been activated and if the new funding streams that will be coming on stream shortly cannot be drawn down, then this tax should apply to those sites, because the developers need to figure out another way to build on that site.

Mr. Conor O'Connell

For the existing planning permissions the tax will not apply. The way it is currently worded, it applies to planning permission lodged from 1 December 2024 and 1 December 2025. If one applies after that, then the tax will apply. All existing planning permissions will not have this tax applied.

On the whole activation measure, there are new compact growth guidelines, which are about to be published by the Department, and which will allow for high density own-door units to be developed in brownfield locations, in suburban locations and all other locations. We are very supportive of that method of achieving high density, or to match or achieve the density guidelines that are there at the moment. In many instances, builders would have had to apply for apartments when maybe they would have preferred to apply for own-door units or houses but to achieve the density requirements, they applied for planning permission for apartments. Subsequently, when they applied for planning permission for apartments, in lots of instances the real estate investment trusts, REITs, were in the market and there were these international sources of finance that unfortunately now, post Covid and post the start of the war in Ukraine-----

So is density the concern? Are the density guidelines the problem?

Mr. Conor O'Connell

Absolutely, the density guidelines are definitely an issue. We are looking forward to the publication of the new compact growth guidelines that will allow us to achieve the high density required for compact growth and sustainable development, and hopefully the Deputy might be correct that some of those permissions for planning for apartments may never be able to be achieved because of the cost structures.

I want to separate that out. There are the current projects that have planning permissions, for which there will be activation measures to incentivise and enable developers. We do not want to still be in this situation in five years' time where new planning permissions, subject to the new tax, will end up in judicial review. This is what the new planning and development Bill is trying to avoid. We do not want to be in that situation where they end up as unviable either, because then nobody wins: the site does not get developed and everybody gets taxed. Nobody is winning there. To avoid that, what are the witnesses saying?

Mr. Michael Kelleher

Project Tosaigh and Croí Cónaithe are new initiatives for the Government that are welcomed by the industry. We are starting to negotiate with the LDA and others to bring it through a process but it takes time. It is very new. The other thing is that the LDA has a mandate for 5,000 units. It will not deal with all the units. On top of that, the Government has now brought forward the initiative around the cost-rental model, which is a new model that will deal with the cost inflation that is taking place and the debt requirement to fund these projects. Again, this will activate but we need to be careful.

They cannot deal with all the planning permissions around the country in the key urban areas. As Mr. O’Connell said, we need to get a number of these initiatives off the ground and see that they are working. In addition, we need to look at compact growth. Outside of Dublin city, Cork, Limerick and Galway, we can design compact growth own-door units where we can get the densities, but with much smaller back gardens. Ultimately, if you live in an apartment, you have 7 sq. m of balcony space as private space. That is all you have. Whereas with compact growth, you could have multiples of that and yet create the density, so it is more sustainable.

We need to be careful of the unintended consequences of saying that if someone gets planning permission and they do not build on it, they should be taxed. All that will do is make it more unviable. Just remember the other issue, which is that some of these sites were bought before the mooting of this new tax. Therefore, they were bought at a price and a time. Unfortunately, all that will do is create a situation where banks and funders could put a builder into a difficult financial position with the funder because of the unintended consequence of a 30% tax on top.

I have not got to either of my two questions and I see four hands up.

I will bring in Mr. Farrell, because he wanted to comment on that, and then we will move on. I am sorry but I have to keep things moving.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I will be brief because Mr. Kelleher said most of what I wanted to say. I have a good degree of confidence that over the summer period we will start to see concrete – no pun intended – Croí Cónaithe developments. Just talking to people across the development community and aggregating information I have heard, I am of the view that we will see it moving to the point where schemes are activated and we will start to see delivery.

The towns and villages initiative is an interesting one as well. It is a pretty decent grant of up to about €70,000 to activate a vacant or derelict house. What I am hearing from talking to people, not particularly our members but people in that business, is that there is quite a degree of interest in registering on the part of people who want to bring those derelict and vacant units back into use.

We are getting that too.

Mr. Pat Farrell

Those are all positive developments. I cannot put a number on it, but I believe they will add materially to the stock and we will start to see progress on that. There was the LDA announcement regarding the Dundrum site. That is beginning to come on stream as well, although I know it is slightly different. I have a good degree of confidence that those developments, which are all good in their principle, will start to deliver units. We will have to wait and see as regards to quantum.

I welcome the industry representatives. It is genuinely important that we meet and engage with those in the industry who are on the ground delivering. It is suggested that the aim of this proposed Bill is to accelerate housing development, but I am not convinced of that at all. What is proposed is far too premature. As Mr. Farrell said, we have the LDA and we are working on a new planning and development Bill. We have reform. They are looking at judicial reform and legal reform of judicial reviews, which are all to be welcomed. There is reform of An Bord Pleanála. There is the fallout from the planning and development Bill. There is a political reaction to the effect that throwing everything at it will resolve the matter. I am not too sure that is the way to go. We need a bit of common sense and to pull back. There are many aspects to the general scheme that have merit, but it is just a bit too early.

At the outset, I acknowledge Mr. Brian Moran. I was councillor for many years in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown so I am up to speed with the Cherrywood SDZ. I hear what is being said about the master planning and the granular detail, but I think it has served us well. There were struggles with Cherrywood, Hines and all that, but an amazing development was delivered. I was out there only yesterday. One of the great benefits for those who do not know is that three parks were delivered to the local authority. What a wonderful legacy from a development. We have the schools and the infrastructure. We have a new town and the potential to link Cherrywood on to Kilberry and out towards Wicklow. There are lessons to be learned from SDZs. The concept of public participation and engagement is a plus with SDZs, and that is why I favour some form of SDZs and the certainty they bring. One great thing for developers is that were many changes, different economic circumstances and new things. We can look from the original SDZ that was planned for Cherrywood to what is there today. I do not want to spend my time talking about Cherrywood, but I want to tell everyone who has not been there to get out and see it. Effectively, a new town has been delivered. It is not an extension of some other town. Hines has identified Cherrywood as a destination, and I acknowledge that.

I wish to raise a few matters. The industry said that LVS proposals run completely contrary to the intentions of land activation, price stability, attracting investment in residential projects, etc., and I concur. As a matter of fact, I would go so far as to say - and I want to say it at this juncture - that we need to look again at the need for institutional investors. While there is much bad publicity about them, they have a function and a role. We might need to pull in on it and change it, but we need money to develop and that is an issue. They have to talk in a holistic way. We have to talk about the delivery of houses, and there needs to be reform of Part V developments. We need reform of the Part V process at some stage. There are quite ridiculous aspects to that process. That is not to water down contribution from developers. However, the way that Part V is being delivered and the type of accommodation being provided is not necessarily best suited to meet the needs of people who need housing in specific areas. Those are important points to make.

I have touched on the backlog relating to An Bord Pleanála and the issue of judicial reviews and the need for reform in respect of these. I have touched on the fact that there is a new planning and development Bill that we have not even finalised. There is a lot in that legislation. I acknowledge the importance of the LDA and its role. It has been a slow starter but we saw what happened with the Central Mental Hospital site. In addition, there are major things going on with Shanganagh Castle. It is exiting stuff. The LDA has honed its skills. It faces a mammoth task. The secret to the LDA will be collaboration with the private sector. It does not all need to be State intervention. I have said time and again that we should not get hung up on who is building the houses. We need houses, and we need to release the lands necessary to facilitate their construction.

This is the pre-legislative scrutiny process. Ultimately, what is being said at these hearings will be distilled down into a pre-legislative scrutiny report that will contain recommendations. The report will say something like "The committee has 100 recommendations". Therefore, this is the witnesses’ time to push for clarity and conciseness in their asks. They should use that time wisely.

I will finish by saying that many of us woke up earlier to a headline on "Morning Ireland" to the effect that new legislation could add €35,000 – okay, drop it back to €8,000 - on houses. That is alarming, and people do not want to hear it. We need to come together, park the ideology and deliver on the houses wherever an opportunity comes.

I will hand over to the witnesses for the final minute or two. Will they touch on the key asks in crisp sentences? When you do business on the table, as they say, what is the ask? This committee needs to hear loud and clear what the asks are. I am not saying that the witnesses will be able to outline them in a minute. If they could engage with us and supply us a number of succinct asks, it would be helpful.

I thank the witnesses. They have much to offer and they employ many people. They are part of the engine of our successful economy. We need to harness all of that to deliver a range of housing to meet the needs of our people.

Who would like to take that for two minutes? I call Mr. Moran.

Mr. Brian Moran

I will address Deputy Gould’s question on whether this is a tax and whether it will reduce land value. That all comes back to implementation. Collectively, we all believe that it makes sense that when something is sold, some of that value is captured and goes back into the infrastructure. The problem in this regard is the retrospective element. This is coming in too fast to the extent that many projects and people who banked, brought investors in and got pension funds will, if this comes in the way it is coming right now, be caught by it and all of a sudden have to try to push that cost on retrospectively. If it was brought in for new zoning, that is fine. We buy the land and, therefore, if we are buying less expensively, that cost then goes into the project and nothing changes. However, it will be an issue if it is brought in overnight. It will cause a cliff effect whereby the land market will stop functioning.

If it were done over time, in increments of 5%, 10%, 15% or 20% over a number of years, that would allow the land market, that is, both the owners of land and developers, to adjust and that would allow it to be absorbed in a way that would not cause a lot of friction. In other countries where this has been brought in, for years afterwards there have been legal disputes and valuation disputes. It goes on and on and ties up, in particular, the local authority valuers in years of disputes rather than allowing them to get on with delivery. A phased introduction, without taxing people who have made, in good faith, investments in recent years and who would be stuck with the need to try to capture that money back, would be preferable.

It is about thinking this through and thinking about how the market works, given the behaviour of both landowners and developers such as us who have to buy that land to move it forward. I can think of cases where we might have been in discussion with a landowner about a deal, but those deals have collapsed and the discussions have stopped. The landowners are sitting on the land and we do not know how much we can pay for it because we are not sure where it will end up until there is a finality in the process.

Is there planning permission for that land?

Mr. Brian Moran

It is raw land. The owner of the land has no money to take it through the planning process, given that could cost millions of euro, so that is something we would do. The owner is now saying, however, that they can no longer pay the price that was agreed because they have no idea when this will come in-----

Would they consider coming to the State and doing a deal with the State on the land?

Would that uncertainty, in any case, drive down the price of the land?

Mr. Brian Moran

Yes, because the land is not yet zoned. Ultimately, the owner will get less money for the land, but their view is that they are not going to do anything and will just sit on it for the next year or two to see what will happen, whereas we would have done a deal, subject to zoning and planning, and spent the money with them to invest over the years and bring that land forward. In that case, we will just have to await the outcome of what happens here.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

This is the case in any purchase we might talk about, whether it is zoned land or unzoned land. In any purchase at the moment, anybody who is looking at it, as Mr. Moran said, will be wondering who is going to buy it, given they do not know how much tax will be involved, and who is going to sell it, given they do not know what they are going to have to pay or what they are going to get for it. The market will just cease until such time as there is a decision as to what is going to happen.

Surely if the price is right, land will be sold. We are getting sidetracked. I am going to bring in Deputy O'Callaghan and return to the committee rota.

I thank the witnesses for attending. They have made some strong and clear contributions, which is useful. They are almost making the case for not taking this type of approach at all to land value sharing, and saying it is an indirect approach, full of risks in how it could impact on the market. They are convincing me that a much more direct approach is needed, whereby we should go to the Kenny report, acquire land by compulsory purchase order, CPO, avoid these indirect approaches to taxation, capture the value uplift there and then, use that to fund infrastructure and then release it, for all types of housing, including to small builders, larger builders and everything else, because something like this is inherently risky. I do not expect the witnesses to agree with what I just said, which is just my take on it.

I heard earlier in some of the contributions that this would possibly work if it were directly tied to the rezoning point in order that it could not be at risk, at the later stages, of being tied in to planning, development and the price of housing. That is a high risk that not only the witnesses have identified but that others have done as well, and I would be very concerned about it. If that happens, that will create an issue for someone who bought the land with a view to getting it rezoned for this. Perhaps they will have the resources to deal with this, and certainly if they are getting a substantial uplift from the sale of the land, they might be able to factor that in from the rezoning point of view and so forth. If, however, it is someone who owns the land in any event, such as a farmer, and if the land is rezoned and the owner has no intention of selling it any time soon, they will not necessarily have the resources to pay the land value sharing tax at that point. They will not necessarily be able to get finance to do it and so on. The challenge, if this were tied in only at that point in time, relates to how existing owners, who may not want to sell or release the land at that point, will deal with it.

I fully agree with the point about how any measures such as this have to be directly tied in to expenditure on providing infrastructure for those sites where this tax is applied. It would be very unfair to the landowners if it were not done that way, and also to the wider community.

On the issue of small builders exiting, is acquiring land and getting sites part of the problem for them? Is there any more evidence of or insight into the reasons they are leaving?

Mr. Pat Farrell

I reiterate we welcome the principle of LVS and we have not come up with a load of reasons against it. What we have said is it should be phased and the value capture should be applied to the specific site to provide the essential infrastructure that is needed. I ask members as legislators the following question. Would they complete an analysis of an important Bill based on the fact the analysis undertaken by Indecon was based on assumptions and an incomplete data set, given the lack of recorded data on land values? That is untenable in the sense that the Bill has been crafted, in large measure, around a study carried out by Indecon that, according to the memorandum, is based on assumptions and an incomplete data set, given the lack of recorded data on land values. I presume that, like me, nobody here has seen the Indecon report but it has to be published, even in redacted form, because it will be impossible for the committee to complete its process, I would humbly suggest, unless we can get access to that Indecon report and see what the assumptions were and to what degree those assumptions can stand up based on the stated fact it was carried out on the basis of an incomplete data set and a lack of recorded data on land values.

Mr. Hubert Fitzpatrick

The Kenny report was published in 1973, some 50 years ago. At that time, there was no stamp duty, no capital gains tax, no Part V and no development levies. The environment today is totally different from where we were in 1973, and it is somewhat out of date to keep referring to a report that is now 50 years old.

I might give one or two examples of adequate land sharing measures that are there at the moment. Development levies, under section 48, were introduced around 2003. Prior to that, the connection levy payable to local authorities was very small and related to the cost of making that connection for services. Section 48 development levies were brought in to fund infrastructure that could be delivered anywhere in the local authority area. If somebody were paying development levies in Drogheda, County Louth, for instance, that could fund infrastructure in Ardee. That is a form of land value sharing.

I will give a typical example, although figures can be very subjective. The value of 1 acre of agricultural land might be €10,000. If the land might be owned at 15 units to the acre and planning permission is then secured, it might suddenly be worth €300,000 an acre. If we say, conservatively, that the section 48 development levy was worth €7,500 and an Irish Water levy was worth €7,500, that would equate to €15,000. That acre of land would generate €225,000 to fund public infrastructure, which would equate to 75% of the enhanced value of the land. The very same could be done if the land value were to increase to €500,000. In that case, we would end up with a 45% tax.

We need to sit back and look at the detail of this in concrete examples. More than adequate land value sharing mechanisms are in place at the moment, and the vast bulk of all the development levies paid in respect of any buildings being built today is being spent to fund public infrastructure elsewhere within the local authority area.

We are all familiar with the schedule of public infrastructure works that local authorities prepare under the section 48 development contribution scheme. I have not referred to section 49 development contribution schemes where special further levies apply. We need to make sure we do not kill the goose that lays the golden egg here because we also have to add in the 20% provided for under Part V. We will find that a zoning tax such as the one proposed will actually devalue agricultural land because the industry will not be able to bear this. It will have unintended consequences.

The Government has brought a lot of initiatives to the table over the past 18 months and we have to give those initiatives time to deliver. We need certainty within the industry going forward to ensure the investment climate is right and that funders are coming in place and are happy to fund. Bringing more uncertainty to the market through new initiatives will detract from future housing supply.

We would welcome the opportunity to share further examples with the committee regarding current land value sharing mechanisms that are in place. When we weight up all of these initiatives my position is that we already have a high land value sharing tax applicable to the industry from which the public benefits.

Mr. Donald MacDonald

The issue is how complex building has become as a result of the regulations that have been brought in. I spoke to a builder-developer yesterday who builds apartments. He has built between 600 and 700 apartments per year for the last few years. He said he now has planning permission for 200 apartments but as a result of the new regulations, he will not start on the site because there is a mismatch in what he has been asked. That could be down to fire or the type of construction. There is a lot of complexity involved and the individual in question is an expert and a member of the IHBA and CIF.

If we take a small builder in a town who has planning permission to build 70 houses and 30 apartments, how will he build 30 apartments? He will not have the technical expertise and, as we mentioned, he will not have the capital - the money - either. Even if he were to start, the way construction inflation in materials and labour has gone in the past few years would make that a challenge. On the other side, how much would he sell those apartments for? That is a challenge as well.

To add in this tax just makes the whole area that bit more uncertain. Mr. Farrell and other members meet people around the country who are saying they will do something else with their time. They may have another business. In one case yesterday, someone said they were not going to build 300 houses but would concentrate instead on the other business where they are able to make money.

Where people are sitting on those sites, that is where the zoned tax comes in. Maybe that is the incentive.

Mr. Donald MacDonald

Yes, but then they will sell the sites.

Exactly. Let someone else take it on. I have the sense that there is agreement that land value sharing is a good thing in terms of planning and sustainability, and is for the common good. It is the actions of the State that increased the value of that land so the State designates, through the planning process, that the land is suitable and needed for development. The zoning and planning process is the lightning rod for services such as transport, power and water to go in. Given that all of those State actions raise the value of that land for whoever happens to be in possession of it at the time, it is right in principle that the State should secure a return on its investment.

I have a lot of questions but I will try to stick to the topic because the discussion has veered off on tangents into judicial reviews and zoned land. Mr. Farrell or Mr. Moran raised the phasing aspect. Will the witnesses explain phasing and how it would not distort the market?

Mr. Brian Moran

At the end of the day, the arrival of this proposal is already distorting the market. There is no question for my colleagues who are involved in land transactions. I certainly know that any discussions we have had with landowners about bringing forward land have come to a grinding halt. When there is clarity on this measure we will also find that landowners will still wait to see how it is implemented. There will be many years of disputes around valuations. That is the evidence from other countries such as New Zealand and Australia that have brought this in. The whole system gets clogged up. It is not a perfect solution by any means. It is still difficult but if it is brought in over five or six years, at least it creates less friction initially because the tax is not so high in year one and is a bit higher in year two. An incentive for the landowner is being created. Landowners will decide to dispose of the land at the price they can get today rather than waiting for it to come in further down the line. It would probably reduce the bid-ask spread between the landowner and the developer in that initial phase and there would be less friction and less effort for the whole administrative valuation structure. I know local authorities will struggle with valuation expertise. The whole industry will struggle to work through this, in particular if it is introduced in a cliff-edge way. It is a potential solution to help the process, if it comes in down the line.

I am sorry to interrupt but the distortion I am talking about is not a distortion as regards an upwards price. Is it creating a distortion through downwards pressure because that is ultimately-----

Mr. Brian Moran

Ultimately, the agenda should be, as Deputy Gould said, that land effectively comes down in price over time. If we expect it to happen overnight just by-----

I do not think anything we do in the planning system should be overnight cliff-edge deliverables. There are unintended consequences of saying this will be done right here and right now.

Mr. Brian Moran

That is what I feel we are facing, as drafted.

Mr. Brian Moran

That is why I am saying if it was introduced gradually, land prices would drop. The developer would not be paying the inflated price and the money would then be freed up to go into infrastructure rather than being paid to the original landowner. Making it retrospective, and applying it to people who bought land in good faith in recent years would create a major problem. It would cause financial distress, particularly for smaller builder-developers and family-owned firms whose balance sheets could be completely thrashed by something like that happening. Overnight, the valuation of land they thought they had as bank collateral would drop very rapidly. That could cause serious distress, much more so in the smaller builder-developer sector than among the large institutionally-funded developers who can take a hit like that, albeit it would destroy confidence in Ireland as an investment location for foreign investors.

Before Mr. O'Connell responds, I will ask another question he may also wish to answer. When someone secures planning permission on land and the value of that land obviously goes up in value, does that have an impact on surrounding lands as well? Does it raise the value of all lands in the area? If somebody can get 400 units on that site, will the value of a site nearby also be lifted?

Mr. Conor O'Connell

To deal with the first issue, most of our members are intergenerational family firms building at different scales throughout Ireland. There are different markets, different scales and different towns and cities. Obviously, Dublin is a very large market but even in the Dublin region the vast majority of house builders are intergenerational family firms that purchased land in the last number of years to bring it through the planning process to build homes. If this measure were to be introduced retrospectively and in a cliff-edge manner, I have no doubt it would put many of those firms out of business. We would lose the skills, knowledge and generations of expertise in building houses.

There is a massive demand for construction workers across the construction industry. I would question the suggestion that people will get out of the building game. There is massive demand for retrofitting and massive demand across the entire system.

Mr. Conor O'Connell

If people cannot pass on the price increase or input cost increase as a result of this measure, there will be a danger.

Mr. Conor O'Connell

It is certainly an inflationary one.

As I understand it, this is not a land activation measure but, as the Chair rightly pointed out, a measure to pay for the provision of public infrastructure. As my colleague Mr. Fitzpatrick pointed out, there are already several land capture mechanisms in place to do that. Regarding land, there is sometimes a mystery that forcing down the price of land will suddenly deliver greater viability regarding housebuilding. The residual value of land per unit is 5% or 10% in most locations. As such, measures are being put in place to increase or potentially increase housing output that would ultimately have a minimal effect on land prices or viability. One of my colleagues will answer the other questions.

Mr. Michael Kelleher

From our point of view, it should be stalled because we have issues. The problem we have is that there is zoned land that is not serviced. That is a big issue. If we had enough zoned land that was serviced, that would bring down the price of land because there would be plenty of it available. The problem is that there is not enough of it. We need to invest in the infrastructure. That is the key fundamental. We have a planning system and we hope that the planning Bill that is working through the Houses will correct some of the issues and blockages in the system, including in An Bord Pleanála, which has a lot of planning applications for adjudication that are not coming through. The problem is we do not have enough raw material, that is, land with planning permission, to develop at the moment. It is constricting the whole system. The other point I will make relates to regional Ireland and smaller builders. The Deputy asked a question about it. The reality is that if this activation measure comes in, the AHBs and local authorities will have a competitive advantage over small builders who want to build private houses. Private houses are also needed in regional Ireland. They will be at a competitive disadvantage because they will have to pay a 30% surcharge to buy the land as this measure is currently constructed. The AHBs and the local authorities will not be part of this measure. That is a huge unfairness in the system.

Surely local authorities and AHBs already have a competitive advantage. They can borrow at a lower rate and do not have to make the same profit to get investment. They already have that advantage.

Mr. Michael Kelleher

They have a bit of an advantage, but at the end of the day, this is a 30% advantage. It is too much.

I do not know who mentioned in an opening statement that we need more zoned land and more planning permission. Do the witnesses not think there is enough zoned land?

Mr. Conor O'Connell

Absolutely not. We strongly believe that.

How much zoned land is there, for example, in the greater Dublin area at the moment?

Mr. Conor O'Connell

I do not have a figure for the exact amount of zoned land.

Does anyone have that figure?

Mr. Conor O'Connell

The amount of land that is zoned in the Dublin region was zoned in accordance with the population projections from 2011 to 2016. We planned based on a population growth rate that is far lower than where we are now. I think it was 2% in that period in the greater Dublin area. Correct me if I am wrong, but it was somewhere around that figure. We are now at 8%. We are at 15% in Kildare and 15% in other counties. Then we have the household formation rate. There are 2.73 persons per household in Ireland and 2.2 persons is the European average. We know from the housing demand assessment that we need more one- and two-bedroom units. We have based our assumptions about population growth rate, inward migration and household formation on projections from far too long ago. They urgently need to be reviewed so that we can have serviced land in front of us for a number of years.

If we zoned a lot more land, that would assist with delivery and affordability.

Mr. Conor O'Connell

Absolutely. There is no doubt about it.

I have to be as strict with my time as I am with everyone else's. I will go to Deputy McAuliffe.

I thank the witnesses for being here today. I have just come from the Committee on Public Accounts where we had a discussion with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage that centred on the issue of density, cost and the word "viability", which we continue to use. I am approaching this discussion having just come from that one. We are talking about land value sharing. Effectively the conclusion from the discussion next door was that even if we had land for nothing, houses cannot be built on it. We are talking about land value sharing and when there is a zero land cost, no profit can be gained. The apparent conclusion from the discussion next door was that, especially in cities where we need apartments because we need density, it will be impossible to build either public or private homes in cities without significant State subsidies. Is that correct?

Mr. Donald MacDonald

Yes, that is correct. We can build houses and make a return. It is apartments that are difficult. It is because of-----

Due to important considerations around commuting and all those other issues, apartments are needed. However, we do not have a discussion often enough about the fact that in adopting a planning policy that requires apartments, in effect, we have said we will never have another set of for-profit, owner-purchase type units in Dublin city without the State heavily subsidising them, in some cases to the tune of €100,000 and €150,000. That is with either Project Tosaigh or the Croí Cónaithe cities scheme or the council-led affordable purchase scheme. Whether it is public or private development, we are effectively subsidising units to the tune of €100,000 per unit. Do the witnesses agree with that assessment?

Mr. Conor O'Connell

A number of different schemes are under way. As various people have stated, over the summer months we hope that some of those schemes such as Project Tosaigh and Croí Cónaithe will help. There is no doubt that given the rise in the cost of finance and materials, apartments are especially challenging.

I spoke about the amount of zoned land earlier. Our national planning policy calls for 50% brownfield development in the key urban areas. In other words, 50% of the lands we are saying should be developed cannot be developed because it is not viable. That is constricting and increasing the cost of land on the periphery. That is what is happening at the moment.

In the city, there is very little left to be developed. There are some brownfield industrial sites. In Ballymun for example, there are at least ten sites the council would give for nothing to anyone who approached it and said they would build housing on them. We have expressions of interest out at the moment for the Ballymun shopping centre site which will have a housing element. It will be on the metro line and we are not receiving any expressions of interest for it. In other words, no one wants to build because there is no money in building and we are talking here about getting people to share the profits. In reality, we are land value sharing, but the State has to give the builder €100,000 or €150,000 per unit to deliver them. My problem is that I am stuck in the moment. I am not saying that land value sharing is not important. It is going forward. Outside Dublin there a key role for it so I am not opposed to the legislation. However, my constituency is in the city and the people on the housing waiting list are sitting in front of me now, not in ten years' time. The difficulty is that land value sharing does not do anything at the moment because we will not be able to tax anything because there is no profit at the end and there is no sale.

Mr. Hubert Fitzpatrick

This brings us to a wider discussion that we need some form of brownfield renewal scheme. We need some form of scheme to make brownfield renewal more attractive. We would then achieve development in those city and town centre cores. We must move forward on that.

The point my colleague made was that the zoning was based on the national planning framework, NPF, projections that were prepared a number of years ago on the basis of levels of inward migration of 8,000 or 12,000 people per annum and low-level population growth. If we had more zoned land that was serviced, it would increase full competition in the market and drop the price of land.

If the land is outside the city, it will not necessarily impact on the land value in the city. It is a different market.

Mr. Hubert Fitzpatrick

It is a different market, but we still have an issue. If we make zoned land a scarce commodity, we drive up its price. The key is to ensure we have an adequate amount of zoned serviced land - that will bring competition into the space and reduce the price. We do not need further land value sharing mechanisms to achieve that target.

Mr. Donald MacDonald

It is good that the Deputy came directly from that session. The message is not good because that is the reality. We are dealing with that every day. It is good it is being discussed and people are finally realising this is a big problem. It is a huge problem. We talked about schemes such as Croí Cónaithe which we hope will help buyers of higher density accommodation. It will not help people in the rental market. There is nothing in that regard.

There is cost rental.

Mr. Donald MacDonald

There is cost rental, but many people rent privately and will not benefit from cost rental. Cost rental is only a portion. There is nothing. We will not see apartment development for the private rental market on any scale like we have seen in the past five or six years. It is gone insofar as we see it. That is the reality. It is challenging.

I will go to Mr. Kelleher on that point and Mr. Moran also wants to contribute.

Mr. Michael Kelleher

The issue we had regarding apartments is that a number of reports have been done by KPMG, EY and others. The cost of building apartments is prohibitive. That is the problem we are having out in Ballymun. It has to be State funded because the banks will not fund it. If there is some social and some private affordable and you are trying to blend it to get a good community mix, the problem with that is that the banks will not fund it because they are afraid of the risk associated with it. Unfortunately, if apartments are needed and it is decided, there is no other way to do that except to have some State funding attached to it. That is the only way.

Mr. Brian Moran

The analysis is correct. The reality is that approximately one sixth of taxpayers can afford the high-density apartments either to rent or purchase. It is therefore a small cohort, given the cost of developing them. The Project Emerald report by the Department of Finance lays that out very clearly. The Deputy is therefore absolutely correct; there is no residual land value except for a certain cohort.

Incentives, such as Croí Cónaithe and shared equity are absolutely essential. The successful roll-out of those will bring down and produce new viability points for a greater cohort of income earners. There are obviously the social and affordable aspects of it as well where the State comes in and takes on a part of that development. There are therefore initiatives coming through. We are an apartment developer, so we have large sites that we have to evaluate. Current interest rates costs have obviously impacted that significantly, but without large European pension funds being available and keeping the market attractive for them, there is no source of capital to fund these projects.

One of the concerns I have with this proposal is that we will scare away those pension funds because of the uncertainty around the risk of a tax in a situation that actually does not have any value. They are very nervous about it.

I refer to phasing long-term implementation. Although the concept is good, in the long term we must be very careful that applying a one-size-fits-all solution to a whole variety of types of developments all over the country could be very difficult.

I have one final question. That poses a challenge for the industry, too. As for the traditional model of acquiring development land, gaining capital, building a project and then selling it on, we are effectively saying that will not happen any more in the city core areas. That is a big challenge, because you will either need to have long-term build-to-rent or very significant State subsidy involvement in it. That is a challenge for the industry, because one of the key problems we have for all the tendering processes for these public programmes is that there is a very small number of people who are tendering for these projects. This is because the capacity to be able to deliver them in the industry is very small. It is a huge challenge, because we are effectively saying to people in the cities they may never be able to own a home without significant State subsidies. There will be a big societal conversation around taxes and how they are used and so on.

There will be massive climate implications there.

Yes, exactly. We cannot inflict the full societal cost of climate on an individual because he or she will simply not be able to afford it. There has to be a State element to it. That is not to undermine the really important climate objectives, but we cannot expect an individual to bear that full burden.

I apologise that I will have to vacate the chair. I will hand over to Deputy Higgins.

Deputy Emer Higgins took the Chair.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

I had one point. When Senator Boyhan was here, we spoke about the price that tax would add to the end product, which is the building or home at the end. He spoke about the figure of €35,000. Indeed, we have mentioned the figures of €8,000, €10,000 and €15,000 etc. How long is a piece of string? That is where you get to. The value of these properties is the scenario. No matter how you get there or the cost of the tax along the way, you will still be caught by the value of the property at the end of the day. Today it could be one value but next week it could be a completely different value. In six months' time, it could be a completely different value again due to interest rates and all sorts of market movements and everything with it.

People are saying that we can add this to the price of the property at the end of the day but even that is not a possibility. If you get to that situation where you cannot add it on, then the middle person will have to pay for it because the tax has already occurred. Somebody will have already had to pay for it. It is not as simple as adding the price to the product at the end of the day. You hear people talking on the radio. You hear people talking about different scenarios. They say it will only leave the property more expensive. It will, if people can buy it. Yet, with interest rates and everything else, it will probably not leave it more expensive because people cannot buy it. Then you get into a situation where you have the product but no people can afford to buy it. That is when the interventions are going to be needed in a lot more scenarios than what we are even speaking about here.

Mr. Conor O'Connell

It means that the unit will not be built.

Mr. Patrick Davitt

Yes, exactly.

I will come in for my own second round in relation to the two issues we spoke about earlier but that we did not get to, the first of which was the IHBA and CIF's concerns around the state aid. Can the representatives elaborate a bit more on that? Can they explain why the current arrangements around zoning for Part V have no state aid implications but they think this may have?

My other contribution is in relation to the strategic development zones and the flexibility element of that. I represent a constituency where we have had two strategic development zones. I understand the concerns around flexibility but my concerns are around making sure that as we build out on those planning permissions and as we build out to develop those new towns, we are also delivering the infrastructure that will be required such as, for example, public parks, playgrounds, schools and whatever that may be. I would welcome some reassurance that baking in flexibility on the planning end of things would not have any detrimental impact on the community. Mr. O'Connell will take the first question and then we will come back to Mr. Moran and Mr. Davitt.

Mr. Conor O'Connell

I believe that has already been answered by my colleague, Mr. Kelleher. Certain public housing delivery bodies will be effectively excluded from the land value sharing as it is currently worded, although it is a proposal. That will lead them to have a competitive advantage when it comes to the purchasing of land. In the scenario where there is a house builder and an AHB that are bidding on one piece of land, the AHB will be at a competitive advantage over the private house builder.

Mr. Conor O'Connell

That is the point there.

Mr. Donald MacDonald

Can I come in on a point that is related to that? We had this in our explanatory note and Deputy McAuliffe mentioned it. Cost rental and social housing are very good policies when there is a massive surplus because the State will be paying for a large proportion of housing. Back in the 1970s we were in a position when the State did not have the money to pay for this housing and it had to sell off a lot of social housing. If we are not producing enough housing whereby people can buy their own houses or rent their own houses privately, we will come to a point in 20 or 30 years' time where all these houses will have to be kept up, we may not be in the same budgetary position and there will be a massive burden on the State. That is also a concern of ours in this regard.

Does Mr. O'Connell want to come in on that before I ask for a reply on the topic of SDZs?

Mr. Conor O'Connell

You have to be careful to ensure that there is a balanced housing supply across all the different forms of housing, such as cost rental, affordable, social and private. We have seen a decline in private housing. Ownership levels in Ireland are now down to 66%. We need to climb that. I will make the point that there needs to be balance. We have to ensure that whatever mechanism is put in place, there is an ability to purchase a home for all the good reasons that have been said.

Mr. Brian Moran

On SDZs, this point is well documented and it has been picked up in this report. In fact, there is a statement that by the time it is taken through the process, very often it is out of date. I think that has proven to be true in many cases. Interest rates change and building codes change during the process by the time something comes through. We have been involved in delivering an SDZ. Parks have to be delivered, schools have to be delivered and we understand that fully, because they are key components and are part of the social infrastructure to make it work. Then, when it comes back to individual sites, there can be tables, phasing charts and things that were unintended. It had not been intended that that would stop you, but actually, it might do, because circumstances will have changed.

If I take the Dublin Docklands Development Authority as an example, when it did its strategic development zone and master plan, on each block the authority had flexibility. For example, it could be a little bit of this or bit more of that and as long as that height and density was achieved, more flexibility was allowed. What we have seen in some strategic development zone plans is highly restrictive, with tables and charts that almost mean we cannot proceed with it. Then it simply becomes not viable any more. The codes may change or apartment codes change and then the plan does not comply with them at that point in time. Then we are stuck until the local authority initiates a change to go to the board to get something back, which could be 18 months.

Mr. Brian Moran

It is about avoiding over-prescription in the SDZ plan and maybe looking back - perhaps with a workshop - at the history, which would be useful to see what has and has not worked. It is about avoiding a level of over-prescription, albeit not on big issues like schools and parks and so on, which have to be done and have to be funded. I very much welcome the idea that with a UDZ, there has to be a funding plan. One of the problems with SDZs to date is there have been no funding plans. It is just silent on it and is silent on ownership. It is silent on the fact that one of the key parts might be on somebody else's land and there is nothing we can do about that. One cannot bury one's head in the sand when these plans are being written. One must look at these issues upfront to move SDZs forward. It is just about avoiding a level of prescription that then gets changed, either through climate changes legislation elsewhere or through building codes that change, so all of a sudden the plan is out of date by the time it is adopted and we try to implement it.

I thank Mr. Moran. If we have no further contributions, we will leave it there. I thank all of the witnesses for their attendance today.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.22 a.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 13 June 2023.
Top
Share