Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage debate -
Thursday, 15 Jun 2023

Dereliction and Vacancy: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

I welcome everybody to the Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage. The committee is meeting this morning to discuss dereliction and vacancy and some of the work being done by the local authorities and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage in addressing these matters. From the Department of Housing Local Government and Heritage, we are joined by Ms Caroline Timmons, acting assistant secretary; Ms Ann Marie O'Connor, principal officer; and Mr. David Healy, assistant principal officer. From the County and City Management Association, CCMA, we are joined by Mr. Kieran Kehoe, director of services, Waterford City and County Council, and Mr. Gordon Daly, Limerick City and County Council. The witnesses are all very welcome and I thank them for their attendance at the committee this morning. I always acknowledge when we invite witnesses before the committee that it takes up a considerable part of their day and takes them from the work they are doing. We appreciate their attendance and their assistance with this matter.

I will read a short note on privilege before we start. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. Witnesses attending in the committee room are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions to today's meeting. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. Both members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy and it is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I will ask Ms Timmons, on behalf of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, and Mr. Kehoe, on behalf of the CCMA, to make their opening statements in that order. I now invite Ms Timmons to make her opening statement.

Ms Caroline Timmons

I thank the members of the joint committee for the opportunity to discuss the issue of vacancy and dereliction. I am acting assistant secretary in the Department with responsibility for housing affordability, inclusion and homelessness and the issue of residential vacancy forms part of my brief. I am joined by Ms Ann Marie O’Connor, principal officer of the vacant homes unit. I acknowledge my colleagues Mr. Kieran Kehoe and Mr. Gordon Daly, representing the City and County Managers Association also here today.

Addressing vacancy and bringing properties back into use in our cities, towns, villages and rural areas can provide much needed housing, while also being a catalyst for the regeneration of these areas and the communities living in them. Tackling vacancy is a key part of the Housing for All plan. Housing for All recognises that at a time of such high housing need, we have to ensure the houses we already have are being fully used. While the reasons for vacancy are often complex, we do not want to see existing housing stock unoccupied, while other people have no home.

Pathway 4 of Housing for All sets out a blueprint to combat vacancy and make efficient use of our existing housing stock. It contains a series of actions to ensure houses already built are being fully used and is very much aligned with other Government policies such as Our Rural Future and the town centre first policy. The vacant homes action plan, launched in January 2023, outlines the significant progress made in addressing vacancy since the launch of Housing for All and expands on the actions being pursued to return vacant properties to viable use.

A number of necessary structures have been established to support addressing vacancy. These include the establishment of a dedicated vacant homes unit in the Department, which has a central role in overseeing, driving and supporting a co-ordinated approach to addressing vacancy. Support is being provided for a vacant homes office in each local authority, with 31 full-time vacant homes officers now in place. This role aligns closely with town regeneration officers to drive the revitalisation of local communities. A national town centre first office has been established in the Local Government Management Agency to drive town centre first actions, co-ordinate stakeholder engagement at a national level and throughout the local government sector, and promote best practice. The vacant homes unit in the Department is working closely with this office and other stakeholders to ensure a co-ordinated approach to bringing vacant and derelict properties back into use.

Progress has been made, with the introduction of new schemes, supports and incentives for owners and prospective owners of vacant properties. For example, in July 2022, the vacant property refurbishment grant was launched to support bringing vacant and derelict properties back into use. A grant of up to €50,000 is available for the refurbishment of vacant properties for occupation as a principal private residence and for properties that will be made available for rent. A top-up grant is available where the property is confirmed to be derelict, bringing the total grant available for a derelict property up to €70,000. The grant is available nationwide in respect of vacant and derelict properties built up to and including 2007. Feedback on the grant has been overwhelmingly positive, with almost 1,600 applications submitted to the end of quarter 1 of this year.

In addition, under call 3 of the urban regeneration and development fund, URDF, €150 million is being made available to local authorities to acquire long-term vacant or derelict properties for onward sale or reuse. The fund will be replenished from the proceeds of the sale or reuse of a site, allowing the local authority to establish a rolling programme of acquisitions to tackle long-term vacancy and dereliction. Furthermore, planning regulations introduced in 2018 that exempted certain vacant commercial premises, including over-the-shop-type spaces, from requiring planning permission to change to residential purposes have been extended to 2025.

More recently, a new compulsory purchase order, CPO, activation programme was launched in April, with targets identified for each local authority. The programme provides for a proactive, systematic and planned approach to the activation of vacant and derelict properties, including the identification of properties and engagement with owners of those properties to bring them back into use. It also includes guidance and supports for local authorities to use their legislative powers actively to acquire vacant and derelict properties where engagement with owners has been unsuccessful. These powers are already being successfully used by some local authorities, for example in Limerick, where 43 properties were acquired and brought into use in 2022, and the CPO activation programme will help standardise that good practice and bring a proactive approach to vacancy in each local authority. The Department has also commenced a vacancy survey to capture data on the number of vacant dwellings nationally. This is being rolled out in all local authorities to identify properties to bring back into use.

The focus on vacancy and the work to address it need to continue. Significant progress has been made and the Department intends to build on this momentum. The vacant homes action plan outlines planned actions to 2026 and support structures are now in place to promote and undertake the ongoing work needed. These actions will be overseen and driven by the Department, which will continue to engage with and provide supports to all stakeholders and ensure a co-ordinated and focused approach to bringing back into use as many vacant homes as possible.

We will be happy to answer any questions the committee may have.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Timmons and invite Mr. Kehoe to deliver his opening statement.

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

I am the director of services at Waterford City and County Council and a member of the City and County Management Association, CCMA, committee on housing, building and land use. I am accompanied by my colleague, Mr. Gordon Daly, director of services at Limerick City and County Council. On behalf of the CCMA, I thank the committee for its invitation and look forward to assisting it in discussing dereliction and vacancy.

The CCMA welcomes the inclusion of addressing dereliction and vacancy under Housing for All, the vacant homes action plan and town centre first and strongly endorses the introduction of policies and strategies such as Croí Cónaithe, call 3 of the URDF, the CPO activation, repair and lease scheme, the vacancy survey and revisions to planning legislation, exemptions to which were mentioned by Ms Timmons. Vacant home officers, town centre first teams and regeneration officers are now in place in most local authorities and recruitment is advancing where the posts have not been filled. The recent census 2022 showed a reduction in the number of vacant homes and apartments by 20,000 since 2016, and while this is to be welcomed, there is a significant opportunity for the return of many more of these properties as we all try to address a housing supply shortage coupled with demands arising from the largest humanitarian crisis for generations. My intention is to highlight the actions of our local authorities, Waterford City and County Council and Limerick City and County Council, as demonstrators of work ongoing throughout the local authority sector.

With the introduction of national policies and frameworks such as the national planning framework, Housing for All, Our Rural Future and town centre first, local authorities have developed a strategic, whole-of-authority approach to dealing with dereliction and vacancy. Heretofore, derelict properties were typically dealt with as part of the work of one unit, with varying degrees of success. In line with the national planning framework’s national strategic objectives for compact growth, which have been listed in our circulated opening statement, and utilising opportunities such as the roll-out of URDF and rural regeneration and development, RRDF, funding, local authorities now have strategic direction, underpinned by funding, to address dereliction and vacancy.

As an example of this, Waterford council was successfully awarded more than €28 million in funding under URDF call 2 for specifically addressing derelict and vacant properties in the centre of Waterford city. The refurbishment, and return to productive uses such as cultural, community, residential, and business, demonstrate the on-the-ground benefits of addressing dereliction and vacancy as these projects come to fruition. We also received more than €5 million for Cappoquin under the RRDF and, similarly, this fund is successfully delivering regeneration projects to this rural town in west Waterford. Part of this project includes the compulsory acquisition of derelict and vacant properties. These are just some examples of the type of interventions being replicated throughout the local authority sector.

In line with pathway 4 of Housing for All, local authorities are making increasing progress on addressing vacancy and dereliction using compulsory acquisition powers under the Derelict Sites Act 1990. In some instances, the use of CPOs has had mixed results to date, with legal delays and challenges impeding progress on some initiatives for some local authorities. Local authorities continue to use the CPO process, however, and in particular to target more complex vacant properties either where they have been unable to identify the property owner or where the owner refuses to co-operate in bringing the property back into active use.

In addition, some compulsorily acquired properties are residential properties needing varying degrees of renovation to be brought back into use by new owners. The expansion of the Croí Cónaithe towns fund vacant property refurbishment grant, which increases the funding by €20,000 for both vacant and derelict buildings, has been an especially welcome development in this regard to help drive homeowner interest in purchasing vacant and derelict properties. Local authorities have indicated strong interest in this area and the recent changes appear to have stimulated increased activity in it.

To ensure a strategic approach is in place to address dereliction and vacancy, as referenced earlier, most local authorities are now developing a whole-of-authority approach to this issue. In Waterford, we have established a steering committee, headed by me as director of service for planning and property management. Other members include our housing team, comprising our director of services, our vacant homes officers and our head of capital delivery; our rural development town regeneration officer; planning officials comprising the senior planner and a dedicated senior executive planner assigned solely to dereliction and vacancy; our community senior executive officer; and our head of property management. This approach ensures there is a consistent and targeted approach to addressing vacancy and dereliction as part of the wider city, town, and village regeneration projects. We have also developed a whole-of-authority information sheet that identifies the several types of grants and supports available to address derelict and vacant properties, and we provide a support service for those interested in availing of such supports. I have attached a copy of this in our submission documentation.

Vacancy and dereliction have an impact on the commercial life of our rural towns and villages, and while we absolutely require more housing and a variety of options for potential homeowners and renters, we cannot allow every property to be used for residential use. The viability of main streets in our towns and villages requires some thought and is being addressed in the context of the town centre first plans. There needs to be a connection between dereliction and vacancy and how local authorities, through their business support units or local enterprise offices, LEOs, can help from a commercial business perspective. In Waterford, we successfully received more than €1.4 million for a digital transformation hub in Dungarvan and, in accordance with town centre first and digital first policies, we have acquired three town centre derelict and vacant properties in which to house this new digital transformation hub.

To continue this level of positive intervention, the CCMA welcomes the developments made in respect of dereliction and vacancy and initiated by central government with supports through the URDF, the RRDF, the town and village renewal scheme, grant assistance, funding of town centre first plans and the creation of vacant homes officer and town regeneration officer positions.

However, this area of work can be slow and is very resource intensive and with the volume of additional work in recent months increasing substantially for local authorities, together with the impending announcements regarding the urban regeneration and development fund, URDF, call 3, there is a need for further resourcing of these efforts to ensure sustained momentum and early delivery of these positive outcomes.

While the sector faces a range of challenges including the current market demands regarding supply of labour and materials and significantly increased construction costs, the CCMA is confident there is considerable work under way by each local authority and its various stakeholders to achieve the targets in Housing for All for local authorities to acquire at least 2,500 vacant units by 2026 and present them to the market for sale. To highlight this, I refer to the briefing note prepared by my colleague, Mr. Gordon Daly, that demonstrates how compulsory acquisition powers have been used by Limerick City and County Council to activate vacant property. Since 2019, that council has published 250 notices to compulsorily acquire derelict and vacant buildings and to date has generated €7 million in the sale of these properties to new owners to bring back into productive use. Limerick City and County Council is a sectoral leader on addressing dereliction and vacancy and is providing valuable experience to other local authorities as they are at the earlier stages of their journey.

I thank the Chairman. We welcome any questions committee members might have.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Kehoe. I also thank him for the leaflet he sent to the committee. It is clearly laid out and is an easy document for someone to look at for an introduction to the different schemes available. That is something we could have in all local authorities. I say to Mr. Daly that the presentation on the work that has been done in Limerick was quite impressive. We look forward to discussing that.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I thank our guests for their presentations and for the work they are all doing in the area of housing generally. The fastest and most sustainable way to address the crisis by increasing supply and affordability is to use existing vacant properties. The initiatives being undertaken by the Department and local authorities are welcome. I know from speaking to members of local authorities around the country that they welcome and support additional resources and investments. They feel they are getting a strong response. People in towns and villages around the country see the value.

Mr. Kehoe made a point about additional resources. How many vacant housing officers and town regeneration officers are in place? Has the CCMA an estimate, or when will it have an estimate, for the additional resources it will be looking for in respect of the 31 local authorities?

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

The Department has funded the vacant homes officers and town regeneration officers for each local authority. Those officers are in place in practically all local authorities although the odd one may be without them. The resources on the housing side to which I was making reference are more about a wider, whole-of-authority approach, to be fair. Anything that has been asked for in respect of resources is being delivered. When we start getting into this whole-of-authority approach, I look at things with a planning hat on and consider the demands on the planning system as it is. We have already made the Department and committee aware of the shortfall in planning staff and other support staff in the planning area etc. I referred to that on the most recent occasion I was before the committee in respect of the planning Bill. This is not just a housing function. It is also a planning and property management function. It is that wider resource piece I am talking about. We must acknowledge that from a housing point of view, our requests are being delivered and the funding to deliver those resources is being provided to us. Funding for a second vacant homes officer is now available in some local authorities. The resource piece I am referencing relates to the wider piece around planning and other support areas.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I understand what Mr. Kehoe is referring to and support it. I can see why there would be a need. When will there be a request from the CCMA members, the local authorities, or a statement, let us say, of what the local authorities see as their need?

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

The request went in at the end of last year in that regard.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Okay.

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

From a planning point of view, 541 resources were identified as the shortfall. A cost of €46 million was associated with that. To be fair to the Department, it secured €5 million in a dedicated fund for that in budget 2023. We are working closely with the planning section of the Department and the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to bring the first 100 of those into the system this year.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I presume the CCMA is having the same recruitment challenges as every other sector.

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

Because of the demand and the lack of overall availability, we end up almost competing with the likes of An Bord Pleanála, the Department and the private sector.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

The agency has not exhausted the fund that was originally made available.

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

We are within a couple of weeks of having confirmation that the first 100 posts will be filled and can be available to us in the next few weeks.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

At that point, the CCMA will be able to move on. That is great.

I will turn to the Department to talk about Dublin. I appreciate there is nobody here from Dublin City Council. When we talk about the housing crisis, we always talk about it nationally. I am not suggesting there is no housing need outside Dublin because there absolutely is. However, the need is greatest, and the supply is shortest, in Dublin. The costs are highest in Dublin. Some 80% of homeless people are in Dublin. The figures for those in emergency accommodation, refugees and international protection applicants are highest in Dublin. The vacancy funding for local authorities is welcome. Dublin City Council, to be fair, has done well in respect of its own voids and the funding the Department has provided to renovate them. However, there has been a massive missed opportunity in terms of reusing commercial space for residential purposes. Dublin city has its highest commercial vacancy rate for over a decade, much of which is a consequence of the Covid-19 pandemic. Has that been identified by the Department as an opportunity? Is it being pursued as an opportunity to rapidly deliver affordable homes in the city? It seems to me there is an enormous opportunity there. What is the Department's sense of how Dublin city is approaching, exploring or exploring that opportunity?

Ms Caroline Timmons

That adaptive reuse question has been coming up more and more. We are starting to have a good conversation around the use of existing buildings. There is an openness in the Department in that regard. As the committee is already aware, we have planning exemptions for conversion to residential use. Those exemptions have been extended and I believe the highest number of exemptions have come from Dublin City Council. The council is clearly moving on that and making the best possible use of those exemptions. We will see what that will convert to in terms of potential homes.

In additional, the vacant homes grant is available for those properties that are being converted for people who want to take that on. We had a conversation when I was most recently before the committee about the fact that the Land Development Agency, LDA, and the Department have been exploring how we might reuse those buildings for affordable uses. There might be a number of older buildings on some of the sites the LDA is using. We have applied for European funding to examine that under the new Bauhaus project to see can we move that on. We are awaiting the result of our applications. We will be looking at places such as St. Bricin's, and an application in respect of St. Kevin's in Cork has also been made. We are trying to see what we can do to convert those buildings affordably and to make them affordably available for people to occupy. That is an emerging conversation we are all having. It is a good conversation to be having.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

It is a good conversation. What I would like to see, and what we need to see, is more urgency around that conversation. Delivery of new builds in the city is always going to be constrained, for all the obvious reasons. It is more difficult and expensive, and there are more objections and all of that sort of stuff. However, the buildings I have in mind are built properties. They are vacant properties that are detracting from the existing communities and streetscapes. They are connected to the water and electricity systems. They are connected to the public transport network. There are schools, doctors and services in the areas concerned. It is a massive missed opportunity. We must stop talking about it and start moving. In all the time we are missing on this, we are adding to emergency accommodation and substandard temporary accommodation. It would be welcome if the Department could work actively. We can take Dublin City Council as an example. We could drive some accelerated pilots in that area. We all know it is complicated and challenging but if we had a few pilots and were to set a plan to deliver hundreds of these units within a timeframe, it would test all the challenges. It would test how to get around fire and planning issues and heritage considerations.

We all know it is difficult to spend the capital spend. It will be great to get money from Europe and it will be great to get expertise from Europe but I really think we need to look at how we can use existing capital funding to try to progress something there on an accelerated basis.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I thank the witnesses for taking time from their busy schedules. I have a frustration in this regard. This committee has constantly been discussing dereliction and vacancy now for six years. The last Government's housing plan had a dedicated section and a whole pillar on vacancy and very ambitious targets, all of which were missed. We have discussed these issues for three years and I do not want to deride anybody's work and efforts but the words "progress" and "dereliction and vacancy" do not fit together in the same sentence on the basis of the actual delivery. What many of us in the committee would really like to hear is, under the seven existing streams for bringing vacant and derelict properties back into use, namely, buy and renew, repair and lease, ready to build, CPO activation, the refurbishment grant, the URDF €150 million fund and the planning exemptions, how many properties have been brought back into use for each year those schemes have been in place? I refer to the years 2020, 2021 and 2022. Are there actual targets for each of those schemes in 2023, 2024 and 2025? Were the committee to be given a simple table that shows delivery and future targets, that is how we would measure progress. I invite Ms Timmons to respond to that first question.

The second question is specifically about the refurbishment grant. We still hear about cases of banks refusing mortgage lenders permission to draw down their mortgages, despite the fact we were told by both the Department and Banking and Payments Federation Ireland, BPFI, that an agreement was reached with the pillar banks four to five weeks ago. This week alone, I heard from two households, not in my own constituency, that Avant Money and EBS are still refusing drawdowns, where people have mortgage approval and have approval under the grant. Will the Department give us information as to why banks are still refusing drawdowns even though an agreement has apparently been reached? Is that something the Department can take away and raise with Banking and Payments Federation Ireland? It is causing enormous frustration and a fair amount of risk for people who now do not know whether they should proceed with the works and draw down the refurbishment grant and whether that will jeopardise the mortgage drawdown at a later stage.

Ms Caroline Timmons

I will start with the last question first. I can certainly confirm that an agreement was reached with the banks a number of weeks ago. We had heard the same and possibly it needs to trickle down to the rest of the banks' staff so the Department will engage with the banks again today to ensure there is no particular problem. We do not think there is. It simply just needs to filter down to the correct people so we will manage that piece when we leave.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

On that point, when we had a similar problem with the affordable housing fund, Ms Timmons will remember there was a nine-month gap in many instances between the agreement being reached with the pillar banks, BPFI and the Department and drawdown. In my own constituency affordable homes were left vacant for nine months. As we need to ensure we do not have another nine-month delay, any extra pressure Ms Timmons can bring to bear on the banks would be greatly appreciated.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Absolutely. I could not agree with the Deputy more. We will certainly move on that immediately. On the Deputy's first question about targets, as for how many homes were brought back under the various streams I have figures here. I maybe do not have all the figures the Deputy asked for but we can provide them afterwards. I have figures for repair and lease. From 2019 to 2022 there were 291 properties,the buy and renew scheme was 374 properties, and CPOs were 346 properties.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Will Ms Timmons go through the figures a little more slowly if she does not mind?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Sure. If the Deputy likes, I will give a note on these figures to the committee.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Even for us here, 291 properties under repair and lease form 2019 to 2022.

Ms Caroline Timmons

The buy and renew scheme was 374.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Over the same period?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes, the same period. The CPO programme was 346.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Over the same period?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Do we know, for example, with the refurbishment grant how many approvals and drawdowns there have been?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Certainly. I will take the Deputy through the targets first to fill out that piece and I will then take the Deputy through that as well. The CPO programme has a target of 2,500 by 2026 in Housing for All but actually for this year, we set a target of 4,000 under the activation piece, with 400 being the CPO target within the activation programme. Activation refers to the overall taking a house through. Not everything goes to CPO, it might be put on the programme and the owner sells it.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Will Ms Timmons run through those figures again? It was 4,000 activation?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Activation within that-----

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Over what period?

Ms Caroline Timmons

That is for this year. Within that, there is 400 for CPO by other local authorities so we recently increased that.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

And the remainder?

Ms Caroline Timmons

The remainder of the targets will be done annually over the next few years, leading to 2,500 CPOs by 2026. That is how that fits in.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Where will the rest of those come after the 400 CPOs in the 4,000 activation target across all of the other measures?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Across all of the other measures. Now, as the 4,000 activation is just for this year, obviously we will produce another target next year for that, depending on how the local authorities have been progressing.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Of that 4,000, of the seven delivery streams I just outlined, how many of those are expected to deliver those 4,000, or is it across all seven?

Ms Caroline Timmons

It might be across all seven. It is up to the local authority. Not all houses suit every particular stream.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Sure.

Ms Caroline Timmons

It will depend on what is the right avenue for that particular home and what the homeowner is willing to do, obviously.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

What about on the refurbishment grant?

Ms Caroline Timmons

I will take the Deputy through the other targets. On the serviced sites scheme and vacant properties refurbishment grant, VPRG, the target is 2,000 by 2025. The repair and leasing scheme, RLS, is------

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Will Ms Timmons just go through those?

Ms Caroline Timmons

The Croí Cónaithe towns scheme includes the vacant property refurbishment grant and the services sites scheme, which is called ready to build, and has a target of 2,000 by 2025. The repair and lease scheme target is a total of 660 by 2026. I will take the Deputy through the figures for the vacant properties refurbishment grant, we publish them by quarter.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

That is right.

Ms Caroline Timmons

By the end of quarter 1, we had 1,559 applications, 459 applications were already approved by the end of quarter 1. We have not yet published the quarter 2 data but we are substantially up on those numbers already from what we can see.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Those figures are very helpful and publishing them quarterly is very good. Drawdowns are equally important because it is a little bit like the local authority mortgages. Figures for applications and approvals are published but not necessarily for drawdowns and it is really drawdowns that matter, particularly if there is a delay on the banking side. Do we have figures for drawdowns for the first quarter?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes, they are published but they are very low. It takes between ten and 12 months to get the work done because people draw down at the end. We are seeing them coming through now. I think it might have been only two for quarter 1 and we are now seeing the numbers start to move up. In quarter 2, we will see a bit more and in quarter 3, we will start to have the real bulk of them.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Will that be included in the quarterly figures as they are published?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes. That is no problem at all.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Perfect.

Ms Caroline Timmons

We see that lead-in time is a result of needing to get the works in and done. There is an assessment at the end by the local authority so they have to go back out for that but then the application for drawdown can be put in. We do not think there is a particular difficulty. The local authorities are getting good help from the Housing Agency in terms of getting technical expertise out to survey the properties, so that seems to be working quite well at the moment. The local authorities are taking less than eight weeks to get all the approvals done so far, so we just need to keep that momentum up now.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I have two final questions, one for Ms Timmons and one for Mr. Kehoe. It is about data. One of the big debates is about how many vacant properties we actually have that are appropriate. How close are we to having aggregated data on vacancy, a little bit like they have in Scotland, that give us clarity in terms of what is actually available for potential residential use?

Ms Caroline Timmons

On vacancy, it is not always clear because we have census data, GeoDirectory data, and the new Central Statistics office, CSO, electricity metering data. We now have a new vacancy survey, so the Department asked all the local authorities to look at the GeoDirectory data and pinpoint where those houses are. The local authorities have a particular app that they then go to the house with and fill in all the details. That is how they source the properties for CPO activation, along with their derelict house register.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I apologise for cutting across. My question is a different one which is, in a recommendation the committee made to the Department in a previous report we advocated the model Scotland has where they actually have a topology where they break vacancy up, so it is very clear. There might be X number of vacant properties in a local electoral area but only a portion of those are actually the kind of units people could live in. Are we-----

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes, the survey will start identifying that for the committee. It will say what type of house it is, whether it is derelict or vacant, what it looks like and whether it will be habitable. It will certainly bring all of that information because it is not collected to date. The census collects it but we can only get to a small data area but we cannot actually get to the address of the house so we will start doing that.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

When do we hope to have that database?

Ms Caroline Timmons

I think all local authorities are starting to do the survey over the next while so I presume, and I will just check with Ms O'Connor, it will be at least another nine to 12 months before we have what we might term as an actual full national database, would that be right Ms O'Connor?

Ms Ann Marie O'Connor

Yes, that would be correct. We have 17 local authorities currently carrying out the survey. It is a map-based mobile app that has been developed by our geographic information system, GIS, team in the Department's data unit. We can add to the information that it collects but all local authorities now have the app. They enter a photograph of the property, information on the property, and that database is being developed to capture information on activity and outcomes relating to those properties.

It is being rolled out. Training has been rolled out to all the vacant homes officers, VHOs, and other teams in the local authorities. The town regeneration officers will also use this data. By the end of the year I think we would have that. Things are constantly changing. Everything is point-in-time here, so the figures will change but that is what we are building at the moment.

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

I am not sure about Limerick but we have started that survey in Waterford. From the mapping point of view, the detail required is in the survey. We have a pretty good GIS mapping system in-house and we are mapping all our derelict properties with it. That is the whole-of-authority approach. Our town regeneration scheme is also identifying issues. We are getting an overall picture, not just of vacancy and the type of vacancy, but what buildings are derelict. We then map with other vacancy issues, whether that be commercial or whatever the enterprise teams are looking at. We get a whole-of-authority, whole-of-town approach to addressing the issue properly.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I thank the witnesses for attending and for all their work. Unlocking vacant and derelict homes has huge untapped potential for every home that exists that is not unlocked. It is relatively quick to do. It is environmentally friendly and it makes sense, because these places are usually in very good locations. Nothing maddens people more than a vacant home, particularly when it is a local authority owned home. I know there is work being done on voids as well. I was going to ask about data so it was great to hear that conversation earlier and I might delve into that a little bit more. For me, data has been the big issue on this over the last year or so because we have so many different strands of information, the CSO and the GeoDirectory. It is great hear the progress that is happening in local authorities now in relation to this survey. Unless we can quantify the issue we cannot quantify the potential that it genuinely holds.

There used to be a website, and apologies if it still exists, called www.vacanthomes.ie. Members of the public could upload details, photographs and Eircodes of vacant homes in their locality. This issue is one which really frustrates the public. This website was a pet peeve of mine because it was a black hole. I put a lot of information into it but never heard anything back and never got an update and some of those homes are still vacant. How is that going to integrate, if at all, with the survey and the app and is that information going to captured?

Regarding targets, this is something that consistently comes up at this committee. It was great to hear Ms Timmons outline the targets on some of the schemes. Those are overall departmental targets. Are they broken down by local authorities? Are we holding local authorities to account on things like, buy and renew, repair and lease and compulsory purchase orders, CPOs, in particular? The CCMA has been very clever in who it chose to send here today because Limerick and Waterford are very much leading in this space. Let us call it as it is. When it comes to the buy and renew scheme and the repair and lease scheme Waterford has a good record and Limerick when it comes to CPOs. However, the experience of Waterford and Limerick is not representative of what is happening in local authorities up and down the country. That is a real shame. It is great for the representatives from Waterford and Limerick to come here and showcase the great work being done in these local authorities but we should not be the audience for this. The audience has to be other local authorities because they need to be following the lead of Waterford and Limerick. Unless we have robust but realistic targets set for local authorities and unless we are keeping them under pressure to do so, that is not going to happen. Unless the CCMA sends more representative local authorities to us, we cannot do that here either. I ask Ms Timmons to answer those questions in relation to the Department first.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes, the Deputy is right. We are in the company of two of the really high achievers in terms of house vacancy. To address the issue, Ms O'Connor and her team have been organising a series of workshops with the best in the business over the past year for the vacant homes officers. They have been disseminating best practice over the last year and have been very involved in bringing forward things like the CPO programme which takes a person through exactly how to do it. We have been taking from the people who know how to do it and making sure that everybody else gets the information. We are now seeing the network of vacant homes officers being able to come together very positively because they know who to call to ask a question and they know how other people are doing things. That is something that the team have worked on very successfully together with the leaders in the field.

Regarding www.vacanthomes.ie, the Deputy might remember that was a shared service type website that Mayo County Council had brought forward at the time. In fairness the council does a lot of work in vacancy and it is very active in the space. I am not sure what the scheduling is but that data is pushed out to all of the local authorities. What I think was missing from the equation was a vacant homes officer to push it on to a particular programme. We have now set the new CPO activation programme which has a target for each local authority that the Deputy referred to. There is a target for each local authority both for activation and for CPO. That is the way to move it forward. They can use the data from that website or from their derelict site register or from their survey, put it all together and then set that number of properties in their activation list. That is their go-to list for the year. The list makes them aware of what they are going to do and how they are going to do it. This has been a really important piece that the Department has been helping to resource and the CCMA has been helping with training. That is how we are tackling the issue.

Mr. Gordon Daly

I want to address the point of local authorities working together. There is a strong culture of collaboration and sharing of information right across all the services we provide. Our team has been established in Limerick City and County Council since 2017. In the last year or two, in cooperation and partnership with the Department and the Housing Agency, we have been working with other local authorities and sharing information. A good proportion of the time during the week for our team in Limerick is meeting with other local authorities and sharing information. That can be done now online, which is a more efficient use of time. I want to assure the committee that the knowledge within the sector is being shared as we do right across the board of the range of services and activities that the local authorities undertake.

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

I echo that. I was previously in Laois local authority which is a very small authority in comparison to Waterford, Limerick or those in Dublin. There are efforts being made in Laois and they have asked us for information about the repair and lease scheme. We need local authorities that are working quite well in certain areas. We know that we do not do everything perfectly. Mr. Daly knows this stuff better than us so we have consulted with him recently to learn from best practice. We want to do the same to help other local authorities.

I want to go back to a slightly separate issue raised by Senator Fitzpatrick. Dereliction can be addressed in many different ways. I appeared before the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Media, Tourism, Arts, Culture, Sport and Media last week. I gave some information on the Waterford Walls project and how the use of murals and street art can address dereliction by making a building look better.

Going back to the issue of ground floor use, in our repair and lease scheme more than 600 units will be delivered once we open the new scheme tomorrow under repair and lease. A lot of ground floor units have been funded under the URDF scheme I mentioned previously, right in the heart of the city centre, which still needs a lot of work in Waterford. We felt that keeping those ground floor units in commercial use was probably better for the city centre space. That is the challenge we face now. We have transferred some of them into community use and other cultural uses. We want to get the private sector involved as well.

Deputy Emer Higgins

Sorry to interrupt but I would ask the witness to bring that feedback to the CCMA. Depending on what statistics one looks at, there could be up to 14,500 vacant and derelict homes in the greater Dublin area. We know that there is a massive need for new homes in the Dublin area. We know that there is a massive number of homes that could be tapped into and unlocked. It would be great to hear from people who work in that area as to how they are going to achieve that, based on the targets set by the Department.

An Cathaoirleach

This committee could be active in holding the local authorities to account regarding the targets over the next couple of years. I will leave a note for the incoming Chair in 2025 to follow up on that.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I welcome the representatives from the CCMA and the Department. Deputy Higgins nailed it by identifying that Waterford and Limerick are two exemplary local authorities in this sphere. I want to start off on a positive note to the CCMA. I thought the presentation was excellent. The samples of the works and the presentation is not something I have seen from the CCMA before. I think it is all impressive. I deal quite a lot with local authority members and they are very positive and excited about it so that is important. There is a real energy amongst our 949 county councillors. They see this as something that they can strongly advocate for because all politics is local. They live in their local villages and communities. They are particularly active in their local electoral areas.

They see something tangible. They can advocate for the shop that has been derelict for 30 years that is next door to the chapel that they pass by every Sunday. They can make a case for the derelict post office that it can be community space on the ground floor. The collaboration with LEO and the fact that we keep our ground-floor units for commercial or community use is important. We also have to protect the built heritage fabric these little villages and towns and that is important. At the moment, they are building social housing units over a shop in Dún Laoghaire in a place that you and I would love to live, right at the heart of the People’s Park. That is happening.

While we may be impatient for change, this is a good day. I am very impressed by the two presentations in terms of organisations and how they set things out. There will be learning curves and it has taken us years and years. The toolbox has been put in place for it. Yes, it is slow but the firm foundation is being done. I am impressed with what I have seen on the whole issue. What are we here talking about? We are talking about vacancy, dereliction, rejuvenation and rebuilding the core of our villages and towns. Well done to the witnesses.

The message for the CCMA has to be the following. Can we get targets? Can we get people on message to deliver? We have to set targets. I say this to Ms Timmons from the Department: we need a better mechanism for how they report back into us and other groups so that we can see some sort of monitoring, what the targets are and what has or has not been achieved. Well done to her.

The only issue I want to raise with the CCMA is this 54-staff shortfall, which is a lot of staff, and the hope and aspiration that it might have 100 posts filled. Effectively, we are talking about 441 posts unfilled. That is the message out of this meeting. If I were listening in and reporting about this meeting or if I were in the local authority sector, what would I be saying I gleaned out of today? I gleaned that we are down 441 staff that CCMA has identified out of a total of 541. I want to hear, not today but in the coming weeks, how we will get over that shortfall. How will the CCMA strongly and robustly lobby Government to get them? There are recruitment issues and I see many of our local authority members going to work for the board and into the private sector, and great on them. It is great to see movement and synergy. That is my ask and I will leave that with the witnesses.

I thank Ms Timmons again for the way she set it down and addressed vacancy in the context of Housing for All. That is the Government policy. It does not matter whether anyone else or I likes it; that is Government policy. That is her agenda and she has to deliver on it. That is her mandate. It is important that we go back to the targets.

It all goes down to this thing about mapping, data and the GIS issue. I think we are seeing this more in development of strategic, local authority and county development plans. Everything is data and information. Everything should be layers and layers. For far too long in local government, planning and housing policy, we have had far too many different sectors, different maps and different plans. We should be able to touch a button with technology today and be able to drop down a layering so we know the zoning and objectives. All of those things should be read like a book. The technology exists now. I think we are embracing it and there are great plans within the Department in respect of An Bord Pleanála. So much of this stuff does not need to be repeated. We know where there are flood plains now. We know where there is commercial zoning, residential zoning, open amenity and maritime-related zonings. It is back to more resources for GIS mapping. Some local authorities are better skilled and equipped with it. Again, this goes back our shortfall of 441 staff in terms of the skill sets required.

I ask Ms Timmons to talk about how we will progress this issue of vacant data collection. I note there were 18 local authorities engaged in it so far, fully up to speed or on the way to being up to speed. There is a challenge of how we can address that. She touched on something, and I will finish on this point, namely the EU Bauhaus project funding and the possibilities there. We see the central mental hospital down in Wexford empty and huge institutional buildings that are protected structures or buildings of heritage significance and importance. Yet, we can travel all over Europe and see buildings similar to these old prisons, mill houses, harbour yards and tram yards converted imaginatively into residential property. Perhaps she can touch on how she will access that funding and the likelihood of that funding. That is something I have not heard before and would be interested in.

This is all positive. It might not be as fast as we want it but the foundations are certainly being put in place. There is huge enthusiasm among our elected members for it. There is buy-in everywhere and it is win-win situation for everybody.

Data, data collection, GIS mapping and critical information has to be resourced. What will the local authority do in terms of cranking up a campaign and getting political? The CCMA is capable of that and well done to it. It has huge resources and huge clout within local government. I will go from here continuing to raise the issue of the shortfall of these staff. The CCMA needs our support here as it does for itself. There were just two questions there.

Ms Caroline Timmons

On data, the Senator is right on the importance of data to vacancy. It has been an issue for years. There is high-level data but one needs the exact address or the exact house and to know what is wrong with that house. Sometimes, that seems to go as far as talking to the neighbour to know what is going on with that house. That is where the vacancy survey has been a positive development.

We have put much time and effort into developing a good GIS unit in the Department, which has been a huge benefit to the vacant homes unit and other units in the Department, particularly in planning, in terms of the exact mapping that the Senator is talking about and understanding where things are and where to target resources. The Senator is right that Waterford has a particularly good tech unit but that can be mirrored in other local authorities. In addition, there can be more connectivity from local to national level, which is a particular focus that we now can bring in. For example, when someone does a vacancy survey now, or whether a vacant homes grant is applied for, comes up into a dashboard, which we can see. We have this real-time data that we can now access that informs Government policy. That connection between operations, on the ground data and Government policy is forming and can be seen in action these days.

On the Senator’s other point on accessing European funding, I have travelled in other European cities where you see these big buildings that have been used in that way, so we are interested in learning more about how they do that, particularly for the affordable housing project. We have applied for I think €5 million in funding under that and I think we will get an answer in July or August. I am hopeful we will get some. Apart from just the funding, it is the expertise and the learning of how other countries have done it and how they have gotten value for money. Technically, they can be very complex and expensive projects. How do we do this in the best way possible for this particular State? It is absolutely an area for us to develop into.

I will hand over to my colleague.

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

The Senator would remember from pre-legislative scrutiny for the planning Bill that the 541 figure overall is not new.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I know it is not new.

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

It is something that members have all been aware of.

Senator Victor Boyhan

It is not progress.

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

To be fair to Department officials in the planning section, they have agreed and secured that first €5 million for this year. They have agreed that 100 posts and it is just getting through the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform in respect of the exact grades, etc. and cost. From interaction with Paul Hogan and his team, I think that is near completion.

The wider piece is going back to the availability. We are working closely with Paul Hogan and his team on this. It is even to get in touch with the technical universities and colleges to start bringing more people through the system. With planning, in particular, we are at a huge shortfall. We are also looking at international campaigns over the next few months to bring people back or at least attract other people from different regions. We are looking at not just the immediate demand of the 100; it is the wider piece of getting more through the system to create more planners and more technical people for this area and whatever other international routes, adverts, recruitment and so on we can do to attract people here into the planning system. We are working closely and it is a very collaborative approach in how we are dealing with it.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I thank everyone who came in. I share much of the frustration of the other members in this. When we are out and about in our constituency, we see much change over time in areas. One of the things that I do not see much change in is when you are in an area and there is a house that has been empty for five, ten, 15 or 20 years and you have reported it to the local authority. You are then back a few years later and it is in exactly the same situation. That is deeply frustrating for local communities.

I wish to make a quick point about the conversion of empty commercial units and space. It is important there is a balance on that. Absolutely, some of that needs to and it is appropriate for it to go into residential use. However, it is crucial as well that we retain a certain amount of commercial and community space. I can think of an area in my constituency that is newer and has many empty commercial units. It was designed to be a 15-minute city and, at the moment, there is no large supermarket. So everyone gets in their car, adds to local traffic congestion and gets stressed, when there is enough space for a local supermarket and certainly the population to support it as well.

There needs to a strong balance between getting in the facilities, including commercial facilities and, where appropriate, converting to residential use if there is an oversupply.

I have a question specifically for Ms Timmons on the vacant homes officers in local authorities. Are they all full-time dedicated vacant homes officers or are some still shared between other roles and pieces of work?

Ms Caroline Timmons

They are all now full-time vacant homes officers and are not shared-----

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

In every local authority.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes, that is correct. There are 31 vacant homes officers now.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Why are the targets not set by the local authority? Why do we not have those kind of detailed local authority targets for each area, for example, in respect of the 400 CPOs for next year?

Ms Caroline Timmons

They are set by local authorities. The new activation programme we published in April has set them by each local authority. We can provide the Deputy with that, if he likes.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Great. For example, what is Dublin City Council's CPO target for this year out of that 400?

Ms Caroline Timmons

The activation target is 150, which is the entirety of what it needs to do, and the CPO target is four. A target is set with reference to a local authority's level of vacancy in its particular area. Dublin city has a very low vacancy rate of approximately 5%. When we set the overall targets, we gave the higher targets to the higher vacancy local authorities. For example, the target is 20 in County Wexford and 30 in County Carlow, which is in direct relationship to their vacancy rates.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

The CPO target for Dublin City Council is four.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes. It is four for Dublin City Council with 150 properties to be activated overall. The activation piece means the council needs to go out, put 150 vacant properties on its list and make them move, whether those properties are sold to someone, used for social housing or come under the repair and lease scheme. It is not that we are pushing for a particular avenue; we just want the properties moved on. The target of 150 is a lot for this year, given the low level of vacancy. However, Dublin City Council has already done a vacancy survey. It knows where to find these properties and it has its derelict site register to pull from. I am confident the vacant homes officer, VHO, will be able to do a good bit of work in that regard.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I appreciate a CPO is not the answer in every circumstance, but we have a situation where Limerick City and County Council has issued 250 CPOs since 2019. There may be more vacancy in that area, but in one part of my constituency more than four homes have been empty for ten or 15 years. These houses are in areas that were built 50 or 100 years ago, which are fully serviced and connected, with high levels of demand for housing and a huge housing need. They are the kind of properties that have not been resolved over the years and need to be CPO'd. That is in one area in my constituency in one part of Dublin City Council. It seems a very low level, when Limerick is able to issue 250 CPOs since 2019, that our ambition for an area such as Dublin city is four CPOs as its target for this year. I appreciate the activation target is 150.

Ms Caroline Timmons

To compare apples with apples, we are talking about a number of years as regards Limerick's target. Limerick has a target of 60 for this year. It has a bigger vacancy rate than Dublin city but many of Dublin City Council's 150 activation target properties might go into the CPO programme next year. A CPO takes a long time to do. If a vacant property can be moved on in another way, that is generally a better avenue. A target of 150 for Dublin city is very high overall. It takes the same level of resources to be put into it but the CPO is a fairly costly and timely exercise. We would like to get Dublin City Council started this year with a view to giving it a higher target next year, if properties that should be CPO'd are identified. If we simply give the council a target without knowing what properties there are to be CPO'd, I am not sure that would be as useful or valuable to the work it does. We would like to get the council started and get it going.

It is learning a lot from how other local authorities have done it. There was a lot of confusion and a little mystique around how a CPO is done, in some ways. That has now been demystified by the work that has been done. There is much more confidence in local authorities about how to get that-----

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

There is just a frustration. I am sure I am not the only public representative who has reported these long-term neglected vacant houses, which are very unfair on neighbours. We have reported those properties for years. It is not the case that Dublin City Council is not aware of them. Given that it has not been able to resolve them through different activation measures over the years, you would think the council would be crying out for the CPO process at this point. Its CPO target seems incredibly low, given the housing crisis we have.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Dublin City Council can certainly do more if it likes. We provided them with the opportunity through URDF funding to bring through more. We provided that rolling fund whereby it has the financial capacity to do a lot more, if it believes that is there to do.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I appreciate that Dublin City Council is not limited to four-----

Ms Caroline Timmons

No, not at all.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

-----but seeing it has not been proactive on these empty houses in areas of high housing need and demand for a substantial number of years, that CPO target is just way too low. Does the overall target of 400 CPOs for this year relate to them being issued rather than completed?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes. CPOs take a good period and they tend to go through the courts at the end of the process as well. We cannot necessarily forecast when they might be completed but we certainly want them to be started in the process.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Are 18 local authorities involved in the mapping GIS survey?

Ms Caroline Timmons

They will all be eventually. Staff are all being trained at present on how to use the app. They are being given that training. They are all commencing over the next while. It is a rolling programme.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

When do we expect them all to be using that?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Certainly over the next six months everyone will be doing it.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Okay. On the targets and accountability, if local authorities are not meeting their targets, what measures will be taken?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Currently, there are a number of ways in which we can help local authorities to achieve what they need to. We have set targets for them this year. There is a governance and monitoring programme that the vacant homes unit in the Department will be actively pursuing over the next while, gathering the data on who has achieved their targets and who has not. In tandem with targets, local authorities apply for funding from the Department. A large penalty is in place. The funding will not be made available if they are not meeting their targets. That is how they will draw down the funding. The URDF has been available to local authorities and they will be given funding for that, but in terms of-----

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Will funding around vacancy not be available if local authorities do not meet their targets on vacancy?

Ms Caroline Timmons

They have to meet the target to draw down the funding.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

To draw it down.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes. For example, under the grant, €180,000 in administrative funding is available to local authorities, depending on the level of grants they get in. That is the activity they are pursuing. We know what they are doing and they are getting extra funding for that. They have asked for additional resources and, over the next while, we will examine that with regard to the level of activity a local authority is undertaking across the programmes.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

If a local authority is not doing enough on vacancy, the funding it gets to tackle vacancy could be curtailed or withdrawn. Is that the consequence?

Ms Caroline Timmons

It is not as straight a line as that.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I know, but it could be counterproductive. A poor performer will be given less resources to tackle the issue, rather than another consequence that might have-----

Ms Caroline Timmons

At the moment, our approach is to-----

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

There needs to be consequences.

Ms Caroline Timmons

-----help them resource, encourage-----

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Absolutely.

Ms Caroline Timmons

-----and be positive and proactive. We are not really in the penalisation space at present but it is the first year of the programme. If the Deputy is asking whether we have a heavy penalty, there is no straight-line penalty. At the moment, we are being positive and trying to bring local authorities along. We need to do that first. If some local authority is not performing later on, we might examine other ways to encourage it.

An Cathaoirleach

I will take the next slot. It was mentioned that this committee has been discussing vacancy and dereliction for the past six years. The conversation has probably gone on a lot longer than that, but it is safe to say that there has never been such a concerted effort to address dereliction and vacancy as we have seen during the term of this Government, including targets being set. The fact is that departmental officials can come to the committee and give us figures for targets that have been set and what has been achieved under various strands, that a very significant funding stream has been put in place under Croí Cónaithe for people to take on derelict and vacant properties and that there are vacant homes officers. That is action we have never seen before. These things take time. They take time to settle in local authorities. We can see the local authorities that have advanced because they have worked on these type of programmes for longer and how well they are doing under them. I expect the rest of the local authorities to come up to speed on this because it is not just about dereliction and vacancy. It also makes sense for climate action. Where we regenerate town centres, that regeneration creates more regeneration and we achieve the compact growth and densification we need.

I will direct my questions to Mr. Daly. On CPOs and the Derelict Sites Act, are there potential changes that could be made under CPO, the legislation or the Derelict Sites Act that would make what the LGMA is doing a little easier or more streamlined?

Mr. Gordon Daly

Our experience in Limerick is that the legislation, even though it is over 30 years old, works quite well. It is more streamlined and straightforward using the Derelict Sites Act to achieve a compulsory acquisition rather than the Housing Act 1966. If a property is just vacant and in good condition, the Housing Act is the avenue to take, but if it is both derelict and vacant, there is a choice. Our experience and the way we have been working it in Limerick has been to use the Derelict Sites Act. By way of that we have published 250 notices under the Derelict Sites Act to compulsorily acquire. Some 160 of those are ready with ownership invested in the council, whereas we have just published eight under the Housing Act to compulsorily acquire. The reason is that it is more streamlined under the Derelict Sites Act.

Colleagues in the Department advise there is a working group and some work has been done to examine the Derelict Sites Act 1990 to see how it could be improved. Yes, there may be elements of it that could be modified or amended but with regard to getting on with it at the moment, there is not a barrier holding us back in the context of the Derelict Sites Act. I believe the Deputy touched on it himself. It is about building up that expertise within the local authorities. It may be legislation where the organisational memory had been lost around using it. Local authorities lost a lot of staff during the economic downturn, and people also retired. That organisational memory or knowledge of how to go through this process needs to be rebuilt again. There are risks, but in fairness to the Department they are being de-risked now through the URDF, call 3, through more streams.

An Cathaoirleach

Is that an upfront fund to allow local authorities to go again and again, like a rolling fund they acquire as they deliver the units?

Mr. Gordon Daly

Yes. One of the reasons we may have been successful in Limerick is that when we established a team for this in 2017, we identified the key measures needed to be successful in it. One of them was having a dedicated cross-organisational team in place. Limerick City and County Council also committed €1 million from its own resources back in 2017 and ring-fenced that money as a revolving fund to begin the work on that process. This was critical to our getting going and being successful in this area. That has been replicated through the URDF for all local authorities. That intervention is very significant because it de-risks the process. These are not free properties. If they are compulsorily acquired by the council the owners must be compensated at market value.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Daly. With regard to changes in the legislation, will the Department clarify whether anything is being proposed or work is being done to identify properties?

Ms Caroline Timmons

There is a Derelict Sites Act working group at the minute, which is examining what might need to happen on that. I believe that a report will come forward on this and any changes that might need to be made can be brought through at that stage. There does not appear at this stage to be anything huge that needs to be done but obviously anything that does need to be done can be brought forward. The CPO activation programme has a full guide in it as to how to use those powers. The Housing Agency has a property optimisation unit, which is available to advise local authorities, and is using the best practice from other local authorities on that.

An Cathaoirleach

Targets have also been set for each local authority on CPOs or repair and lease. The committee did a report, either last year or the year before, and it is good to see a lot of the recommendations that we had made being enacted now. One of those was the data gathering exercise. It is quite impressive that 18 local authorities are going out mobile. Score conditioning was recommended in the report. It can be stated that a house is vacant or derelict, but is it completely uninhabitable or does it just need a little bit of work done to it to bring it back? This is very important data gathering. I am glad to see that.

Will those local authorities then report back each year to the Department or will it be quarterly or six-monthly? We do not want to leave the reporting for too long and we want to identify, perhaps each quarter, whet the progress is and maybe track those. Is that the type of reporting we are looking at or would that be too short a timeframe?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Is the Cathaoirleach referring to the specific survey data?

An Cathaoirleach

No not the survey data, I refer to the six or seven activation measures and the targets set for them. One does not dictate to them that they all must be done under CPO or repair and lease. Will it be flagged where some process has stalled? For example, some processes can go on for a very long time but the end figure is just the end figure. Will The Department monitor progress through each of those and report on that?

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes. Obviously, we have only just given the CPO activation programme an aim for it, but we plan to monitor it quarterly and, after that, we will see how we are going. There is actually a lot more contact than that with the vacant homes unit in the Department for the vacant homes officers, VHOs. Even on something like the vacancy grant, it is real-time data that we get back in so we know exactly what is going on at all times. It depends. With something like the vacancy survey the local authorities might be talking to us quarterly.

An Cathaoirleach

It would be really helpful for the committee to receive that information in whatever format. The committee brought in officials from 12 or 14 local authorities over the past year to report on progress under Housing For All. That could be an exercise for this committee to engage in, to give them a little bit of time. I know that these initiatives take time to settle. The legislation for the affordable housing scheme has been in place for just over a year. These things do take time to settle and build. It would be a worthwhile exercise for the committee to consider that, and to bring in the local authorities and let them present to us on the work they are doing on those activation streams.

On the Croí Cónaithe towns and villages scheme, initially it was a towns and villages scheme for regeneration within town centres. It was then expanded to encompass the whole country, outside settlement boundaries or rural areas. Is there a breakdown on how that scheme is performing against its original objective for towns and villages, as opposed to country wide? Are there figures on that?

Ms Caroline Timmons

I do not believe we have done an analysis in that way. We have the breakdowns for each of the local authorities and obviously we can see what is coming through in the four Dublin local authorities because that has been open for less time. The volume of applications can be seen there, which may not be as high as other local authorities. I believe there are 30 to 40 applications in each of the Dublin local authorities. That would be compared to very high numbers for some of the local authorities where there are high vacancy rates. There are more than 200 in Cork county where the scheme has been open all the time. We have not done that level of analysis but we can look at it in that way.

An Cathaoirleach

That would be interesting to know. I accept that if something comes in for the four Dublin local authorities it includes the city, but if something comes in from a county we have no idea if it is within a settlement boundary of a town or if it is rural. I would be interested to know how the towns and villages schemes breaks down in that regard.

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

As we map the data we can definitely assign it. A lot of it is very rural in Waterford city and county. There was huge demand from our elected members that once-off, rural and derelict properties would come under the scheme. They are now under the scheme and we have a lot of interest in those.

An Cathaoirleach

Would Mr. Kehoe say there is a lot more interest being expressed now that it is outside settlement boundaries and into the once-off property territory, as opposed to the original objective of the scheme?

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

There is. The big thing is the increase in funding and even over the past few weeks, we have noticed a big increase in inquiries. There was initial demand when it was not in rural areas but the fact that it is expanded to rural areas has been a game changer as well, especially for the rural areas and rural elected members, who are very supportive of it.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Kehoe.

Deputy Michael McNamara

Cathaoirleach, I have a school tour coming in. Deputies Ó Broin and McAuliffe have agreed that I could go ahead of them.

An Cathaoirleach

That is fine. We will go to Independent slot. I am happy to bring in the Deputy now.

Deputy Michael McNamara

I appreciate that. I have followed this debate on the monitor in my office. I am very interested in the issue. I have been surprised for some time by the lack of use of the Derelict Sites Act by various local authorities. I sent a questionnaire to local authorities on this issue and I am very grateful for their responses. I sent it to all of them and 19 responded. I am very grateful for that. I know Mr. Keogh, and Mr. Daly who is not quite a fellow parishioner but lives fairly close to me. I welcome them to the committee and I thank them for the information they have brought with them.

It is interesting to hear from the local authorities that have had the most success using the Act. It would also be very useful for the committee to hear from the local authorities that were not very successful and have not been using the Act as much of late. Louth County Council comes to mind. There was a lot of utilisation of the Act and now it seems to be utilised less. Did they just run out of derelict sites? Hopefully, that is the case in Louth. Was there a particular reason for using the Act less?

Mr. Daly mentioned building up the expertise and a team to utilise the Act. Obviously Limerick, like Waterford, has a relatively big local authority, and it is one of the bigger ones in the country. He has worked in a number of local authorities.

Could smaller local authorities that do not have as many personnel and that cannot dedicate a team to the task in the way Limerick and Waterford local authorities perhaps can be provided with some more support from the Department or a unit therein to discuss the legal possibilities? Mr. Daly, who will have a broad view of local authorities from his career, might have a view on this.

Mr. Gordon Daly

With a smaller local authority, the scale of the problem and the size of the team needed can be smaller. My colleague, Mr. Kehoe, has touched on the fact that a whole-of-council approach is needed. In Limerick, we found that putting responsibility for vacant and derelict sites under the one team worked, regardless of the volume of resources. In some local authorities, responsibility might be spread across different sections. Derelict sites could be under the environment section, vacant sites could be under the planning section and vacant homes could be under the housing section. We found that our place-based approach worked. We took it town by town, village by village, and street by street within the city. As Mr. Kehoe touched on, it can also be done in other ways. Everybody does not necessarily have to be on the one team in that there could be a steering group across the organisation that pulls it all together. There are different ways to tackle this. It is critical that there be policy, strategy, various schemes and supports at national level, followed by resources and structuring. There should be information-sharing, including on best practice, with each local authority determining how best to achieve the outcomes. That can vary.

Deputy Michael McNamara

Based on their culture, are some local authorities more reluctant to use the powers than others? Mr. Daly might not be in a position to answer that. He has worked in various local authorities but at different times and in different roles, so he might not be able to comment. I do not want to put him on the spot.

Mr. Gordon Daly

It is important to acknowledge that, within local government, there is a lot to be considered. We are discussing vacancy and dereliction today, and these comprise a subset of planning and housing. Local authorities provide 600 or 700 services and, therefore, there are many services competing for their attention. It is important that the local authorities be supported and resourced at national level. The supports and resources are emerging. We are on the journey and supporting each other within the local government sector in this regard.

Ms Caroline Timmons

I fully agree with what my colleague said. On counties that have done what we are discussing previously and that are not doing so now, a comment was made earlier about the loss of expertise in the sector. Maybe what we needed to do was step out the process. That has now been done with the Housing Agency and the Department. It is also a matter of understanding where to access the knowledge, allowing the likes of Longford local authority to ring up the Housing Agency and ask how something can be done. The local authorities know this now and each has a VHO. We have advised that each authority should have its VHO work with its town centre person and that it should form units where possible. We fully agree that where this is not possible, having a cross-council steering group is a really good idea. Smaller authorities like that in Carlow are taking the unit approach while others are taking the steering group approach. Both are valid, depending on the size of the organisation and who is dealing with what therein. We can certainly see the concerted approach now. That will solve some of the issues associated with the loss of expertise over the years. Expertise will return and there may be a broader way to access the expertise of other local authorities.

Deputy Michael McNamara

Hopefully.

There are also many derelict homes outside towns. Perhaps there are as many in rural areas as urban areas. I appreciate that the focus in Limerick has been on Limerick city for very obvious reasons. I welcome that but there is a lot of scope to move out. I say this not just in respect of Limerick but also in respect of every other county, including Clare. There is quite a lot of dereliction in rural areas. It might be less detrimental to the fabric of the community in a rural area, by definition, but it still would be covered by the Act.

I am sorry for focusing so much on Mr. Daly. He mentioned the risk involved in the CPO process. I asked whether there was merit in a compulsory sales order rather than a compulsory purchase order. In reply to my questionnaire, ten local authorities supported or would be interested in the proposal, six were opposed to it and three had no comment. In the responses to the questions I asked on legislative changes that would be beneficial, two respondents referred to being able to dispose of a site without going through the section 183 process. Some local authorities have answered on what they did with sites after the issuing of a CPO. Many just want to prevent sites from remaining derelict and aim to sell the property again as quickly as possible. In Scotland, it is possible to issue a compulsory sales order. In effect, the property is put on the open market. Obviously, the purchaser would have to commit to not leaving the site in a state of dereliction. The local authority would have less risk in the process and not be left with a site for which it has paid a lot of money. The market would bear the risk more. Do the witnesses see any merit in that type of approach or legislative proposal?

Ms Caroline Timmons

That has been suggested to us and we are happy to take a deeper look at it. We are aware that the model has been used in Scotland. From a policy point of view, we have not yet done sufficient work to put it in place; however, because it is not a concept we have dealt with before, we are going to commission research on it to understand how it works in Scotland and how it might knit in with our legislation. We are happy to take the work forward and might be able to return to the committee at a later date with a little more done on that.

Deputy Michael McNamara

Could Mr. Daly or Mr. Kehoe comment on the benefit, or otherwise, of being able to force the sale of a derelict property on the open market without involving the council? The latter would mean a CPO on the property, after which it would become the problem of the local authority, for good or bad. It does not have to be a problem as it could be an opportunity.

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

Anything that will help us is welcome and has to be considered. It is being considered. I do not have any reason for not considering it. If it is introduced, it will definitely be applicable in some cases.

The Deputy mentioned the section 183 process. We have a whole-of-council approach. We engage with the members very actively at the start and during the process. They have local knowledge of the derelict or vacant properties and advise us. We work with them and they make representations to us on behalf of some owners. When we acquire properties, I have no issue with the section 183 process in that we have a decision on whether the property should be for our own social housing stock or go back to the private market. If it goes to the private market, we need to keep the councillors engaged regarding the process.

Mr. Gordon Daly

With regard to section 183, the elected members have a really important part to play in the process of activation. In this regard, let us consider what occurs if they do not buy into it and the whole process stops. Where the local authority is acquiring derelict property, it needs to pay compensation. The only way to bring back that money is by disposing of the property on the open market and using the funds. We can understand and may be seeing some evidence that elected members would prefer properties to be taken into the ownership of the council through this process and used for social housing, but the challenge with this is that the local authority housing departments have a lot of work to do. They have voids and they have vacant properties to bring back into use, and they also have capital programmes to deliver on, and, therefore, it is important that properties be put on the open market and put into private use. The support of the elected members is available. It is in the legislation that the disposal of property is a matter for the elected members. They have an important role to play in that regard. The Department intends to brief the various council representative organisations on this. As other speakers have said, there is genuine energy and enthusiasm among elected members right across the country. Their support in helping to streamline the disposal process is important.

Deputy Michael McNamara

If there were a compulsory sales order, such that local authorities did not have to purchase derelict property at all and all the risk were removed, basically forcing the owners to put the property on the open market, they would not dispose of the property because they would not have purchased it in the first place. Has that potential? Is it a matter on which the witnesses do not have a definitive view?

Mr. Gordon Daly

As my colleague said, we would welcome any measure that would help.

As Ms Timmons stated, there is a need to constantly consider best practice in neighbouring countries. Our experience in Limerick is that the co-operation of the owner is still needed and one needs to be able to find the owner. In many cases, we have gone for compulsory acquisition because there is no engagement and the title is poor. By going down the route of using the powers under the Derelict Sites Act, when the property is vested in the council it has a clean title to be put forward for onward sale. All present appreciate how difficult conveyancing can be. In future, when we have dealt with the low-hanging fruit and properties have title issues and the owner cannot be found, there might be scope for it.

Deputy Michael McNamara

I thank our guests. I congratulate Mr. Kehoe and Mr. Daly on the successes in Waterford and Limerick, respectively.

An Cathaoirleach

I did a significant amount of research on compulsory sales orders about a year and a half ago. I also engaged the Oireachtas Library and Research Service on the issue. I thought Scotland had run into difficulties in this regard. It stalled there because it is extremely complex. I agree that it is something that could be utilised but I believe we should go for the less complex and quicker return options first. I am not ruling it out but-----

Deputy Michael McNamara

I would be interested to know what the difficulties in Scotland were in the context of property rights here, which Deputy Ó Broin may wish to see changed in the Constitution. If there were difficulties in Scotland, it is possible that similar challenges would arise here.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

In the context of the intellectual heavyweights on the committee, my questioning will seem very simple. My home constituency is Dublin South-Central. It encompasses Dublin 6, 8, 10 and 12 and areas like that. I have worked with members of the local community in Dublin 8 who put together a list of all the derelict sites that are not on the register. How is it that there are derelict sites that are not on a derelict sites register? What is the mechanism for ensuring they are placed on the register? How do some properties fall through the gaps? I am curious to get underneath how it is all compiled and account kept. This is very rudimentary in the scale of the questions that are asked at the committee but the local community members have put together a comprehensive list of sites, including blatant and obvious ones, that have not been picked up. How does that happen and what should be done about it? It may be that I need to do something different about it. I ask the witnesses to explain how it happens.

Ms Caroline Timmons

I will hand over to my colleagues shortly. I do not have responsibility for derelict sites; it falls within our planning division. As such, I do not have an in-depth answer to the question. There is a group, on which Mr. Daly sits, within the planning division that is currently considering the Derelict Sites Act just in case there are changes that need to be brought through. I will ask my colleagues in the local government sector to respond to the Senator's in-depth question.

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

I made the point in my opening statement-----

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

My apologies; I was at another meeting and was not present for the opening statements. I will go back and------

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

Different authorities have approached this in different ways in the decades since the inception of the Derelict Sites Act. What we are seeing now is a whole-of-authority or whole-of-council approach. It is different and it is changing. I cannot speak for my colleagues who are responsible for Dublin South-Central but-----

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

Dublin City Council covers my constituency.

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

In our experience in Waterford, there are very few properties on the derelict sites register but we have been active in tackling dereliction through other mechanisms. We found it was not an effective mechanism in terms of dealing with the end product. If a property is placed on the register, it is subject to a 7%, formerly 3%, levy. It is an administrative burden for very little return. We attacked the issue through different mechanisms. We issued compulsory purchase orders, CPOs, rather than taking Mr. Daly's approach of compulsory acquisition. Through the Housing Act, we issued CPOs for more than 54 properties in five years and brought them back into productive use. Approximately half of them went into our housing stock and we put the other half back onto the market. Different authorities chose different mechanisms to get to the end result. That is how we dealt with it. We did not use the Derelict Sites Act to any great extent.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

Waterford City and County Council does not use it.

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

We did not use it. We are now changing that because we are moving-----

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

I am asking questions to try to understand this better. There is a sequence of events and before there is an entitlement of CPO, one must engage with the derelict sites. The lawyer in me would assume there is some sort of-----

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

That is the nuance and the difference. We issued CPOs under the Housing Act. It did not have to be under the Derelict Sites Act.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

All right.

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

The way the local authority in Limerick has used the Derelict Sites Act and put properties on the derelict sites register means they can go through compulsory acquisition process. We are now changing our tack. We are transferring to using compulsory acquisition rather than CPO. As I stated, we issued CPOs for more than 54 properties. Only one of those orders was challenged, but that challenge was very costly. That is the risk it brings. Through working with Mr. Daly and his team, we and other local authorities will move moreso to the Derelict Sites Act to get properties onto the register so that we can compulsorily acquire them easily.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

It follows that sequence.

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

It is for that reason. It is about getting to the end productive use-----

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

And doing so quickly.

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

-----rather than having a 7% levy-----

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

My colleague, Senator Cummins, speaks incredibly highly of the successes in Waterford as an example of how it can be done well. I am anxious for that to be done. Are people carrying out surveys? I have been supplied with photographs and have visited some of the properties. I am astounded that they have not been picked up. I appreciate that Mr. Kehoe cannot answer for another council but------

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

It is being picked up. A survey is now ongoing through our vacant homes office. As local authorities working for our cities, towns and rural areas, we are very aware of our own areas. Decisions are made in respect of the best mechanism to deal with the issue. Different local authorities have taken different approaches. Sometimes it comes down to resources. I do not mean people. To go back to the discussion with Deputy McNamara, I was previously involved in a small local authority. Prior to the provision of the funding that is now available, if such an authority went down the derelict sites route and decided to compulsorily acquire ten properties at €150,000 each, that was €1.5 million onto its book. It had to carry that burden. Those decisions have to be made at senior level. Sometimes it is not possible to recoup the levy that is imposed on sites on the register. Our experience is that most of the properties that are in a bad state have no or very poor title and it is a challenge to even find the owner. The levy is not being paid and that is an administrative process for no return. We in Waterford focused on getting to the end product through a quicker mechanism, such as by using repair and lease or the other mechanisms that are available. Under the second call of the urban regeneration and development fund, almost €30 million is being directed into the city centre. It is about getting at those difficult properties, some of which are old or protected. There are vast properties that the private sector will not go near because of the cost of refurbishment and there is the scale of intervention that is needed as well. There are all these different scales. We all see the obvious properties that are somewhat easy to acquire and flip but there are bigger interventions. Sites are another challenge. This approach will attract and very strongly go after properties such as derelict old industrial units or whatever that could produce hundreds of units.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

Absolutely. Some of them here are such sites. Are all the local authorities adequately resourced to go use that mechanism?

Ms Caroline Timmons

We have resourced all the local authorities with a full-time permanent vacant homes officer, VHO. In addition, we offer additional resources under the various grants, as well as resources for vacancy surveys. Each local authority can apply for that funding and 18 of them have already started. In fairness to Dublin City Council, it has been a leader, having carried out a vacancy survey back in 2018. Under the new national programme and the vacant homes units that have started, its staff have been receiving training in recent months and should be starting that survey to inform its vacancy programme and decide which properties it will activate. The resourcing is now in place and there is far more positivity across all the local authorities with regard to how they will approach it.

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

I am not criticising Dublin City Council at all because it has a very comprehensive list from 2019. My question involved where that did not pick up properties that have been obviously vacant and in a bad state of repair for a very long time yet are not on the register. I contact the local authority and question it then.

Ms Caroline Timmons

That seems to be explained by the difference in approach taken by local authorities. Some put such properties on the derelict sites register while others have chosen to activate it in different ways. Regarding the point about having a national programme and a central office co-ordinating all of that, they are all moving to this new place of using the Derelict Sites Act and the derelict sites register-----

Senator Mary Seery Kearney

Which has more teeth.

Ms Caroline Timmons

-----so I think that will change over time in terms of the approach.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Senator Seery Kearney raised a very important question. There is nothing simplistic about it at all. I would be less generous. The use of the derelict sites register is appalling. The record of almost every local authority when it comes to putting sites on the register is very poor. I know local authorities will argue that it might be an ineffective mechanism, is resource-intensive, etc., but we even have local authority sites that should be on the derelict sites register but are not. If the register needs to be reformed and improved then it needs to be reformed and improved but it is so badly under-utilised. I do not want to get into it today because we had a dedicated session where Senator Fitzpatrick raised the matter quite vociferously.

I will return to targets and delivery. Ms Timmons said that overall 4,000 vacant properties are to be brought back into use this year. I assume she is including the local authority voids programme in that. Is that correct?

Ms Caroline Timmons

No.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

So she expects we will get about 4,000 this year from the seven or eight schemes that are actually about bringing vacant and derelict units back.

Ms Caroline Timmons

It is the start of the activation programme. I am not saying they will be all be moved this year. It can be very complex to move them but they have a list that they are trying to move.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Do we have a target for how many we expect to be delivered this year across the various schemes? Again, it goes back to the conversation around whether or not there is progress. The only way we can measure progress over a period of time is the actual number of units through each scheme that are brought back into use each year. One of the very frustrating things for many of us is the fact that it is very hard to track this data. From the last question-and-answer session we had to now, I have gone through the vacant homes strategy, the Department's website and the Housing for All website and nowhere is there any place where you can track what has been delivered to date and what the targets are. Little bits of that information are scattered everywhere so if members of this committee, who are used to this information and these websites, find it very difficult to track progress or not, the general public and others will find it difficult as well. How many units do we expect will be returned to use this year through the various vacant and derelict activation programmes?

Ms Caroline Timmons

I will address that in the round and then address the specific issue. For the vacancy piece we have done since the launch of Housing for All, we have put a number of new measures into place. What the Deputy is starting to see is us reporting on those measures gradually over time. With the vacancy grant, you can see that we are reporting all of the statistics every quarter. You can see everything on it in one place and one report. I agree with the Deputy that it is really important to be able to see that.

We launched the CPO programme in April so the intention is that each quarter, the Deputy will get a report showing him what we have achieved over the previous quarter but that is something that will have to develop over time so I cannot necessarily say I have data to give the Deputy today but I will soon.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Here is the frustrating thing. I am not complaining that a new scheme is not performing overnight. Some of these schemes are six or seven years old while others are only a few months old. Under the last and the current housing plan with social housing, we have had annual targets broken down by local authority and by delivery mechanism and it was very easy to track. That is also very helpful to ensure that local authorities and the Department are doing what they are meant to be doing. We do not get the same clarity with affordable housing delivery and vacancy. Even though there are reporting mechanisms, it is exceptionally difficult to know where they all are and to track them. What I would really like is not unlike the social housing progress pipeline progress report, which is a brilliant report. I would even suggest that we do not need it four times a year. Twice a year would be sufficient and less resource-intensive for the Department. It would be great if there was a vacancy report twice a year where all that data was collated. You could do it in a single page or two pages to say we have seven or so schemes, we have targets for some though not all of those schemes and here is the delivery. If we do not have that, it is impossible to know whether the Cathaoirleach's more optimistic interpretation of recent events or my more pessimistic interpretation is evidenced. It is a growing criticism of the reporting mechanisms, and I am not being critical of individual members of staff because they work very hard, that it is really difficult to track affordable housing delivery and vacancy. Even if it is possible to report to this committee once a year just with that spreadsheet, it would be really be helpful.

I do want to talk about the voids programme because we have not talked about it to date. Last year, the claim was that more than 2,200 local authority voids were brought back into use. I recommend that the Department be a bit more accurate in reporting that information. The vast majority of those voids are not voids. They are casual re-lets whereby local authorities require additional funding from the Department to ensure they can bring them back into use. That is not a void in terms of how the voids programme was originally designed. The original programme introduced by Alan Kelly was about identifying long-term vacant properties and voids and bringing them back into use. I do not want to use the word "honest" because that suggests people are being dishonest and I know they are not being dishonest but there is a big difference between a casual re-let and bringing a long-term void or vacant site back into use. That needs to be properly reflected in the data because otherwise, it sounds like 2,500 council properties that were sitting around empty for a long period of time, not unlike vacant or derelict properties, are brought back into use. Is there any intention to make it much clearer when that is reported how many are casual re-lets versus long-term voids? I know there is no definition of long-term void at the moment. It used to be 12 months and then it was six months. They are not the same thing.

Ms Caroline Timmons

I see the Deputy's point. We are reporting the numbers that are reported to us from local authorities that drew down under the voids programme. What the Deputy is saying is that this does not tell him how long a property was void for and the level of works needed to bring them back into use. Is that it?

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

No, that is not what I am saying. When the voids programme was initiated, it was a specific intervention to address long-term vacancy in local authority stock and it did a very good job. I have to say that it was a good programme. What has happened over a number of years as local authorities have cleared out their long-term vacancy stock, is that funding from the voids programme has been used for a different purpose. I have no problem with that. If a local authority needs that extra €40,000, that is great but they are not voids. Ms Timmons's choice of language is unfair. The local authorities are telling the Department what money they applied for under its scheme. The Department's scheme decides that they are voids. What I am saying is that a very large portion of those are not voids as per the original definition but are casual re-lets. It is a standard local authority property that was occupied, a tenant dies or moves out and an additional amount of money is required to bring it quickly back into use. It would be good if the Department was able to disaggregate that and show that its intervention is helping local authorities but these properties are not voids as per the original definition. This is not my definition. It is the definition preceding Ms Timmons's involvement in the Department. Could the Department look at that because it gives a misleading impression around that?

Ms Timmons mentioned a target for Dublin city and said that Dublin has a low rate of vacancy. That is not the case. Its percentage at a county-wide level versus other counties might be lower but Dublin city has an exceptionally high rate of vacancy. The numbers of vacant properties are higher. You could have an area where the level of vacancy might be proportionately lower than in another local authority but because the number of properties in that local authority area are much greater, it is much higher. Using the Dublin county percentage as a way of targeting the number of vacant properties to be brought into use in Dublin city is misleading because Fingal, South Dublin and Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, where I am, have a much lower rate of vacancy than Dublin city, where Senator Fitzpatrick is. The way in which the Department looks at those targets needs to be based more on where vacancy is concentrated and that is not at a county level. It might not even be at a local authority level. It might be within LEAs. That is what Waterford has done very successfully. It has identified those areas. I urge the Department to be more nuanced. Regarding the idea that Dublin only has four CPOs, I would hazard a guess that there are thousands of vacant properties within the Dublin city and county boundaries and the idea that the target of four CPOs is one for the Dublin folks to argue about rather than those of us in the county does not seem a credible way of estimating what is a reasonable return from individual local authorities.

Cork city would be the same. Even in some of the other counties, it is the towns or some of the villages where the concentration is rather than in the county.

Ms Caroline Timmons

I certainly agree that we can find concentrations and pockets of vacancy in any local authority. I also agree that perhaps the county level vacancy does not describe that. We have small area data that informs that a bit further, but we probably will need the vacancy survey to be done before we can really identify what Dublin City Council might consider to be an appropriate target. Without maybe-----

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

Do the witnesses think four is an appropriate target?

Ms Caroline Timmons

It is 150. We have not said that it should only do four. We have said: "Please put 150 in your activation programme." If the local authority can activate them another way, that might be better than doing a CPO. There are quicker ways of doing things.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I question even 150. It is an activation programme that will run over a number of years. They will not be delivered this year.

Ms Caroline Timmons

That is the number to initiate this year.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

To initiate, but not to bring into use.

Ms Caroline Timmons

We hope that they could do it this year, but we cannot say for certain that would be the case for any given property, because of the complexity of the reason for the vacancy. We cannot be prescriptive and say that the council must be able to bring it into use this year.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I have just had a look at the report but, unfortunately, it only gives percentages rather than numbers. Does Ms Timmons know what the GeoDirectory vacancy and dereliction rate is in Dublin city?

Ms Caroline Timmons

I do not have it in front of me right now. I am sorry, Ms O'Connor does, and it is 1.2% for GeoDirectory for Dublin.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

This is very important. That is for Dublin county, and it has a whole set of newer suburbs with low vacancy rates, and then a historic city which has very high vacancy rates. Using the percentage for the county, as opposed to the number within the local authority area, would not be my initial point.

The second point is that Dublin city does not have pockets. We only have to walk through the city centre to see there is a phenomenal number. The census used to have about 40,000 vacant properties in Dublin city, not in the county. With GeoDirectory, it used to work out at about half that, at around 20,000. I do not believe there are 20,000 vacant properties in Dublin city that we can get for residential use, but even if it was half that again, that is 10,000. I imagine that the folks in Dublin city would be pretty disappointed with such a low level of ambition, if the idea is that we have an activation rate of 150. I appreciate that the survey has been only initiated, but at some point we need a much clearer number of the actual number of properties in each local authority area and each local electoral area, and more ambitious targets. On the basis of the figures the witnesses have given us, in the past four years, only about 250 vacant and derelict properties have been brought into active use State-wide. It has not been escalating each year. It was quite high in 2019, and in 2020 and 2021 it fell because of Covid, and it is now moving back to 2019 levels. That is a pretty low rate of return, even if we take a conservative estimate, using the local property tax, LPT, returns of 57,000 vacancies, or even if it is only half that. I urge that we would look at the way those targets are set.

I would also urge that the Department or the committee would put the schemes in some kind of tabular form on their websites so that the local authorities and the Department could track them. If it is good news, that is great, we will compliment everybody. If it is not good news, then at least we will know where the progress is or is not being made.

Ms Caroline Timmons

I am happy to take all of that on board.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

I will continue with the same theme. It takes Dublin City Council the best part of 20 years to CPO a property. That is my bitter experience with it. I commend the other local authorities. I appreciate Dublin City Council has a much more complex and challenging job in terms of size, scale, and all of that, but it also has very significant resources. If it needs more resources, then we need to provide them because there is no part of the country where there is a greater economic or social need for housing. We are not getting new-build homes in Dublin city. There have not been any new-build homes built in Dublin city in ten years. If we do not start very rapidly using the built infrastructure that is already there, whatever crisis we already have will just get worse. It has a massive impact economically and socially. We have schools that cannot recruit teachers. We have hospitals that cannot recruit nurses and doctors. For all of the right reasons, we are making massive investment in social infrastructure in the city and housing is not being delivered. The social housing programme is going very strong, but no new private homes are being built in the city, and there have not been any built for ten years. We can talk about the derelict sites list, CPOs, and all of these issues but, to be honest, we do not need to gather any more data. I appreciate it is a really important task and we have to do that nationally, but we need an approach for Dublin city. We actually need to recognise that Dublin city has national importance. I am not saying this because I am from Dublin city. This is having a social and economic impact way beyond my immediate constituency or community.

I hear what Mr. Kehoe is saying. To be fair to Dublin City Council; it is really good. To be fair to the Department; it has provided unprecedented funding in the last couple of years for urban regeneration and the public domain. We will see an awful lot more of it, but in the meantime there are all of these vacant properties. Mountjoy Square is the finest, most perfect Georgian square in the country, yet there is an amount of vacancy on that square. It is not just in the last couple of weeks, that is the case for months and years. That is also the case right across the city. In terms of the application of this at the street level, it is fine if have got small units, but what we need is an adaptation of vacant commercial spaces at scale. It has been done in Dublin before. Croke Park is probably someplace that the witnesses visit. There is an old distillery building on Jones' Road. In Shandon in Phibsboro there is the old Shandon mills. To be fair, Tuath did a great job out in Park West, which was again funded by the Department, so it can be done. In Brooklyn, in New York city, DUMBO was a zone just under the Brooklyn Bridge. The name is an acronym for Down Under the Manhattan Bridge Overpass. Over a period of 20 years they took what was an area completely filled with warehouses and it is now among the most expensive residential areas in all of the United States. I do not suggest we need that, but my ambition and vision would be for us to take the vacant commercial units that are at scale. I refer to the older office blocks that will need to be brought up to a higher standard. That would be a really good use of State and public fund investment for the affordable and cost rental area. It would meet a social and economic need in the city but it would also do it in a way that is sustainable from the perspective of the public purse. If they are long-term affordable cost rental they will remain available into the future and they will meet the needs of the key workers: the teachers, the nurses, the gardaí, the artists, the entrepreneurs - people who are earning just above the social housing income limit.

My ask is to urge the Department and the CCMA to work with Dublin City Council to put together an accelerated plan for the city. There is much great work going on, but I think the stats Ms Timmons gave earlier about the 1,500 applications for the vacant property grant kind of says it all. That is a huge number of applications within a very short period of time.

I fully understand why the Department cannot yet report on the completions, because each property is individual. Each property will take an amount of time, and the grant is only paid when the work is done. If it was easy, it would have been done overnight. I am absolutely confident that as the reports come out on a quarterly basis, the numbers are going to be strong and they are going to continue to grow. I am fairly certain the local authorities and the Department will exhaust that fund. It is great, but in the city we need it at a bigger scale. The grants for vacant and derelict properties can be used - I know the Department adjusted the scheme to allow for the inclusion of a second property if it is for rental purposes – but what we actually need is a similar type of intervention to what we do to provide affordable housing in the city, namely, a subvention to allow for affordable cost rental to be delivered through the adaptation and reuse of the vacant commercial spaces. The rate of vacant commercial space in the city is about 15%, so there are a lot of properties there. It should specifically be for affordable housing, ideally affordable cost rental and affordable purchase.

I ask the CCMA and the Department to work together to try to bring forward an accelerated plan for the city. We desperately need it.

Ms Caroline Timmons

We will take all that on board and have a look at it with Dublin City Council. We will take the comments to its vacant homes officers and the people they work with. The survey will be the first step and will inform what the plan might be. I can see what an accelerated plan might involve.

We are interested in all avenues for providing affordable housing, especially cost-rental housing in the city. That is something we are active on at the moment. The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage is working hard to try to bring that forward. The AHBs and LDA are also working hard. We can see it coming. It just takes quite some time. We are seeing big mixed-tenure sites come forward now. That is exciting but it will be a few years before people see them on the ground.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

There are not many of them in the city. This is the problem.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes, that can be an issue.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

To be honest, the real issue is that the city is constrained in respect of the amount of available land. There are valid reasons that affordable homes schemes are not being brought forward. We need to recognise that and adjust our approach.

Ms Caroline Timmons

The work of the Dublin housing delivery group is focused on that. Dublin City Council and Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council both have particular issues about how to get it off the ground. It tends to be apartments that need to be brought forward because they are the permissions available to us. They are more expensive and more complex to produce. If it can be done by activating vacant commercial buildings, I do not see why it should not be done. As long as we get the product at the other end, we can be fairly agnostic about where it comes from. There is certainly an environmental and sustainability reason to do that.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Senator. It is important to acknowledge that the Croí Cónaithe scheme was only introduced in July last year. It has been in place for 11 months. These things take time to bed in. Many people came to me before I had all the information. It takes three to six months for people to decide to go for it. I expect it to get better.

I recommend the Department adds the new fund that has been announced for refurbishment assessment of traditional farmhouses or farm cottages to its leaflet. There is another grant of €7,500 available for refurbishment assessment. It will need a bigger leaflet.

Following on from what Deputy Ó Broin said, that when we take a broader area, the percentage sometimes masks what exists in pockets of the area, is it possible to break down the GeoDirectory by electoral division?

Ms Caroline Timmons

I am not sure.

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

It is mapped so a layer can be taken down onto a general support system, GSS, to allow people to choose an area they want to look at to get an appreciation of the number of vacant buildings in that area, as per the GeoDirectory.

An Cathaoirleach

Let us say we will settle with the GeoDirectory- I am conscious that staff are out in the field in 18 local authorities and will probably improve the information - would it be possible to provide a layer of data to say what the vacancy rates are in a particular electoral district as opposed to in the larger blocks we seem to be reporting on at the moment?

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

Can I intervene? The complaint we have from a Dublin city perspective is that the percentage of the overall properties in the area is reported. It is a small percentage relative to the number of properties. However, the number of properties that are vacant is quite large. For example, 1 % in Longford is a very different proposition from 1 % in Dublin city, as regards actual numbers. It is a low percentage vacancy rate but a high number of properties.

An Cathaoirleach

I get that point. I wonder what work we can do to try to address those anomalies.

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

A survey will be the real on-the-ground report from our vacant homes teams in conjunction with-----

Ms Caroline Timmons

We can supplement that. When the census data come out in August and September, we will be able to get down to small area level. We have the data from 2016 so I know we can do that again. That is done for approximately 100 houses so it can be used to form a picture of a local electoral area. I am not sure about the GeoDirectory, but we can also have a look at that to see what picture we can form, versus the vacancy survey.

Ms Ann Marie O'Connor

Each local authority has a dashboard and we have a national dashboard. The local authorities can see a map of where the vacancies are so they will see where they are concentrated. They are also being given the GeoDirectory data for their areas. They have all the address points and the vacancy points identified in the GeoDirectory. It is their database so they can now go into it and mark other properties as vacant or derelict. It is a live database they can add to by changing the status of properties. They will see it on a map. It will give them data at a high level, but they will also be able to zoom in on data in particular areas. That will provide them with what the committee is looking for. It will be possible to clearly see where the pockets are and the local authorities can address them. I will use Carlow as an example because the town regeneration officer there is using that data to devise the town centre plan. She can home in on the areas that need particular action. I think that will address some of those issues.

Senator Mary Fitzpatrick

My concern is that there is no mystery about where they are. It is not that nothing is being done about them. That is not fair. However, the opportunity is not being exploited. It is perhaps seen as a problem to address and deal with and it gets dealt with, later, in Dublin city but it is not seen as an opportunity. It is not being pursued by the local authority as an opportunity to massively increase the number of affordable homes in the city from a tiny base. It is a missed opportunity from the local authority's perspective and from the city's perspective as a consequence.

An Cathaoirleach

As time goes on we will get more data and information. Everyone agreed when we were preparing that report, that getting to the lower level information is helpful, not only the numbers but also the condition scoring.

I will ask a question about the derelict sites levy. We used to have a vacant site levy which is being changed to a zoned land tax, which is Revenue based. A vacant homes tax has been brought in. I did a bit of research on the derelict sites levy last year. According to the figures for 2020, €5.4 million was applied in vacant site levies but only €348,000 was collected or some such figure. When a derelict site levy is on a site, it can be collected at point of sale or transfer of the site. However, that does nothing for the site over ten or 15 years, if people just allow the levy to accrue. Has consideration been given to converting the derelict sites levy to a tax and to leaving it to Revenue to collect?

Ms Caroline Timmons

I am not sure. I might be confused about this. The residential zoned land tax will replace the current vacant site levy. The derelict sites levy is a different piece of work and I am afraid I do not know if there has been any consideration of converting it to a tax.

An Cathaoirleach

When the local authority envelope drops through the door with the local authority crest on it, people might be likely not to respond to it. When the harp drops through the door, there is a much greater response. We have generally been moving to a tax, with the vacant homes tax and by going from a vacant homes levy to a zoned land tax. It would be a natural progression for the derelict sites levy to become a tax. It would still be left to the local authorities to identify the derelict sites and put them on the register but Revenue would have a role in the collection. It seems that approximately €5 million is eligible but not being collected and is not feeding back into the local authorities.

Does any additional onus or responsibility come onto a local authority when it adds a site to the derelict sites register?

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

It would be a Government decision to change to Revenue collecting a tax. That is not for us.

On the levy - I think I referenced this earlier - many of the cases are difficult, in that the properties are not registered, people may have died and we do not know who the proper owner is. That accounts for a lot of the administrative burden in trying to recoup the levies. I am not sure whether Revenue could improve on that. It is not every case, but we find that many of the difficult cases are like that.

An Cathaoirleach

If the register were to be compiled based on observations and people reporting derelict sites, the local authority would say "there is the register" and leave it to Revenue to collect the tax.

It would relieve them of the burden of having to collect the levy. The levy is obviously not being collected in many cases. The reports suggest that. Revenue has a much better record of collecting. Responsibility for collecting the local property tax went to Revenue. It is the body that should collect outstanding levies and taxes. Would it relieve the local authorities of some duties there and, perhaps, streamline the process if that were the case?

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

It could potentially increase the workload. As the Chair said, they might respond better to Revenue but it would probably be more challenging in the context of the definition of "dereliction".

An Cathaoirleach

We might find out who the owners are then. It might drive out the owners.

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

Potentially, if there is an owner. However, there is also work to confirm that every year, like the situation we have with the residential zoned land tax, RZLT, which we welcome, but where there is a burden every year to reproduce the data that identify those lands that are subject to RZLT. Similarly, if we are looking at a large number of derelict properties, every year they would need to be confirmed or reaffirmed to Revenue. We are going to have a burden, no matter which way it goes. The Chair is saying that we might get a return.

An Cathaoirleach

There would be quite a lot of initial work but the ongoing management of that would not involve as much work. The local authorities would know the site is still derelict just with a drive-by. Has that been considered in the review of the derelict sites legislation that is going on at the moment?

Ms Caroline Timmons

I do not know as that is the responsibility of the planning division. Mr. Daly deals with this. I am not aware if it is being considered at the moment but I can find out and come back to the committee.

An Cathaoirleach

That would be helpful.

Mr. Gordon Daly

The local authority collects other moneys, such as rates and development levies. In the case of Limerick, our approach has been that we have a debt management unit which has taken on the collection of the derelict sites levies. They are levied from within the team that deals with derelict sites but then the people who are seeking to collect that money are staff members who are experienced in the area of moneys owed to the local authorities. There can be different approaches in different local authorities and, equally, some councils may have properties on the derelict sites register but they may not be applying the derelict sites levy. There can be different reasons for that.

An Cathaoirleach

They can be on the derelict sites register but not required to pay a levy.

Mr. Gordon Daly

Again, it is up to the local authority whether it wishes to apply the levy.

An Cathaoirleach

That is up to each local authority and it is at their discretion if they wish to do it.

Mr. Gordon Daly

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

That should be tightened up.

Mr. Gordon Daly

Again, there is a resource implication. The strategy of some local authorities, as Mr. Kehoe outlined, has been to go about activation in a different manner and perhaps in a more proactive manner.

An Cathaoirleach

I appreciate that and it is quite a workload for the local authorities to chase down all of those activation measures. It is better to engage with the owner than to just slap a tax on them. I would prefer the view to be “We could achieve something better here” rather than “We are going to penalise you.”

I am looking for the figures for Limerick for 2020. Limerick seems to have the best record in terms of acquisition and compulsory purchase orders, CPOs. The levies for Limerick amounted to €280,000, but the amount received is only €15,000. That almost reflects the national picture, where it is only collecting less than 10%.

Mr. Gordon Daly

I am not sure where the Chair is sourcing those figures. From my figures, since 2019, we have collected €520,000 under derelict sites levies.

An Cathaoirleach

I was just referring to 2020.

Mr. Gordon Daly

That might be reflected in the fact we have handed over the management of that to our debt management unit within the council. We have about €400,000 collected under the vacant sites levy and that money is being ring-fenced and used to-----

An Cathaoirleach

If Revenue was to collect it and return it to the local authority, that would be a better system and, like the local property tax, it comes back to the local authority even though it is Revenue that collects it. My sense is it is best to try to relieve the local authorities of the task of chasing people for a levy, to let them do the good work they do in identifying the site and leave that money-collecting part to Revenue. It would incentivise people to act in respect of sites.

If the local authority puts a site on a derelict sites register, does that put any burden on the local authority in terms of having to manage it or the notifications, and does it then become responsible for anything that might happen on that site?

Mr. Gordon Daly

No, while it is on the derelict sites register, it is still in the ownership of the person who has control of the property. Indeed, even when a compulsory acquisition process is done, it is only when the council vests the property and publishes a vesting notice that it comes into the ownership of the local authority. Obviously, that responsibility then rests with the local authority in terms of managing and maintaining the property, and making the decisions as to what to do next to activate it.

An Cathaoirleach

I have a question for the Department. We brought in the planning exemptions with limitations whereby people no longer need planning permission to convert a former commercial building to residential use. There is the process of fire certification, accessibility certification and notification to the local authority, and, in some cases, conservation certification. Has there been any thought on how to try to streamline that process or even to get those two processes concerning accessibility and the fire certificate to run in tandem so it can be done quickly? In our experience on the committee, we have heard evidence that these are all separate hoops that people have to jump through. I am conscious that people do not have to do planning anymore but they still have to go through them. There was talk of a one-stop shop where people could go in with all of their drawings. Is there any progress on that? I know we are reviewing Part B at the moment.

Ms Caroline Timmons

There is an ongoing review of Part B. They are considering the consultation pieces they have had in and they will then be due to report. As part of that work, we committed in the action plan published earlier this year to look again at the Bringing Back Homes manual. That was the first response to the one-stop shop narrative in terms of how we do that, how we put it all in one place and how we get them all to work together. That was quite a successful document in terms of bringing that together and we can do that again. The vacant homes unit will be part of that process of redoing the manual and, as part of that, looking at the structures needed to make those pieces work together and find out how we streamline them. I expect that whatever we do on the fire side will feed into that process as well. Certainly, our building standards people will be sitting on that group going forward. We will come back on that throughout the next year and see what we can do on that front.

An Cathaoirleach

The review of Part B and the fire certification should be completed and reported on to feed into that process.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

That is helpful. I want to ask a question on carbon accounting within the Department in terms of housing provision. Has any accounting been done? We know our figure of 33,000, on average, but if we were to apply a figure of how we much we can bring back in with regard to refurbishing and reusing buildings, has any carbon accounting been done on that? My colleague, Deputy Leddin, probably wants to come in on that so I will bring him in now, if he wishes.

Deputy Brian Leddin

I have just been at another committee with the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, the Ministers of State, Deputy O'Donnell and Deputy Noonan, at which we discussed many things relating to housing. We touched on vacancy and dereliction quite a bit. However, we finished early and I figured that I could not walk past this committee room without saying hello to the Limerick contingent, although Mr. Daly might not fully consider himself a Limerick man, especially after the result at the Gaelic Grounds last weekend.

The witnesses are very welcome. I congratulate the local authority on the work being done in Limerick, which is reverberating around the country. We are hearing time and again about how Limerick is really pushing on. We have seen a sea change in the approach to dereliction and vacancy in the last few years and that has been led by Limerick. The local authority should be very proud of that. It is pulling other local authorities with it and it is influencing the whole scene across the country.

On the Chair’s point regarding the carbon impact and mitigation impact, and the benefit of doing the work that is being done, and while the local authorities might not strictly see it as their role, their role is to activate these old properties and to get them back into use, as well as vacant sites. There is a very definite climate and carbon benefit to this work because it is displacing carbon that might be generated through new construction. We touched on it at the other committee and the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, and the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donnell, were in agreement that a piece of work should be done, perhaps at Government level, but the local authorities would feed into that and might be best placed to do a lot of the elements of that work to assess that carbon benefit.

No doubt it is quite substantial. Having knowledge of those numbers would help to inform policy and would probably encourage further support for the kind of work the witnesses are doing. Have the witnesses thought about this at local level or done any work on that? It might be an idea to link in with the teams that are doing the local climate action plans. I am not certain that this is in the terms of reference of those climate action plans. Does this fit into that? Maybe it does. The witnesses can tell me.

I want to ask about the impact of the approach in the past few years whereby the Department has become very active in the area of issuing derelict site notices and applying vacant site levies. One outcome of that is that properties are acquired, reactivated and reoccupied. That is very positive. Another outcome is that revenue is accrued or property owners or landowners are incentivised to develop. Is there any analysis of the outcomes, both of which are positive? Do the witnesses find that when they issue the derelict site notices or when they apply the vacant site levies that in more cases than not it will lead to the acquisition of the properties and the collection of revenue? Is it the case that it encourages owners to develop sites? I am interested in that because any future review of the regulations should reflect an understanding of the impact of the current ones. Our guests are probably best placed to inform us of that.

I had a quick scan through the presentations. I saw all the really brilliant examples of sites that have been brought from dereliction into beautifully refurbished homes all across Limerick city and county. It is really excellent to see that. I have a question about the use of materials. I see a lot of PVC being used in windows and doors. Many these streets in our rural towns, villages and cities are very valuable and precious. There is an aesthetic to them, and we have to be so careful when we are doing the renovations that we are being sensitive to the character. I do not like to see PVC being used, notwithstanding the cost implication of using timber frames, etc. Have the witnesses thought about that? I am sure they are very sensitive to the issue and they understand the value of using good materials etc. Yet, as we go forward, we need to value more and more the importance of moving away from using PVC.

Ms Caroline Timmons

To assist my colleagues, I will start with first with national piece on existing buildings and embodied carbon. It will make sense to then move on to my colleagues. I highlight the climate change sectoral adaptation plan. Obviously, the Deputy has just met with my colleagues, who are experts in this area. They alerted us to this. In the plan for built archaeological heritage there will be a life-cycle assessment report. That will take a step-by-step approach to assessing embodied and life-cycle emissions involved in the retrofitting of existing buildings. That will highlight the contribution of reuse of the existing building stock. It will build on some of the research that is already there, which shows that existing buildings are going to out-perform new buildings in that respect. That will be coming forward. I am that will then be of use to the local authority sector. I will hand over to my colleague.

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

I will deal with the streetscapes piece, if we want to call it that. We are very conscious of the position. With my planning director hat on, through the development plan process, we identified architectural conservation areas. That is where we need to assess and decide upon what streetscapes we feel are of merit and that need protection. Any works that are done within that must be sensitive, as the Deputy said. We will do that.

I return to what I highlighted earlier, namely, that the whole-of-authority approach. There should not be just a dereliction unit or a vacant homes unit. It should also be a matter of our town regeneration officers. We should make sure that in anything we do our towns, villages, cities and places to live are vibrant and yet reflective of the character, history, etc., of what is there. We must not do anything that will in any way detract from that. Obviously, the use of PVC involves a financial aspect. We can control or protect the character through the development plan process, whereby we can make sure that architectural conservation areas are appropriate to the location.

Mr. Gordon Daly

On the Deputy's question on levies and the impact they have, our target right across the local authority is always to achieve activation. It is not a revenue-generating exercise, even though for the local authorities that are applying the levy, it is being used as a tool to incentivise people or to try to get them to bring the property back into use. There is now a scenario whereby people have a choice. If it is on the derelict site register and there is a levy, they can either pay money to the local authority and pay levies into the public purse, or the really excellent alternative will be to seek the activate the property. The public purse will pay them money by way of a grant under the Croí Cónaithe scheme to activate the property. When faced with those two choices, if somebody still is not willing to activate the property, at that point that we will make the decision. There is now a disincentive and an incentive. They are very clear. If they are not activating the property at that point, that is when we generally make the decision to compulsorily acquire the property. It is in that spirit that the levies are being applied.

Deputy Brian Leddin

Can the witnesses say what percentage of the notices they have issued led to the owner getting on with it, developing, refurbishing or whatever? In what percentage of cases have they had to go further and issue CPOs or apply levies?

Mr. Gordon Daly

It is my sense that those who have the ability, resources and will to go on and solve the problem and take the property out of dereliction or vacancy will react to the levy. This is for the simple reason that they can accumulate quite quickly. Our staff, who are dealing with people sensitively, will articulate that. They will tell them that there could easily be €15,000 in levies being accrued within two years on a property. They will ask if they would not be better off putting that money into the property. If people have the ability, funds and will to do it, the levy will generally incentivise them to get on with doing it. However, if they are not in a position to do it, and there is no owner that can be found, the levy is something that will continue to accrue. It does focus the attention on property owners who are in the position. They may have put it on the long finger. They may have intended to get on with doing this. Therefore, both the risk of the levy and the attractive nature of the grant that is in place at the moment are having that desired effect.

Deputy Brian Leddin

Do the witnesses see that some owners are just putting the properties on the market? Is that increasingly the case? They might not be in the development game themselves and they might not have the capacity to develop, notwithstanding the supports that are there. Are we seeing more properties being put on the market and then purchased by those who might be interested in developing them? Does the CCMA track that?

Mr. Gordon Daly

Again, those who may be in a position to do it themselves will do it themselves. Others are seeking to put their properties on the market. They probably realise that now is a good a time, because there is a high demand for housing and there is a low supply. People who are interested in this may not have previously considered buying an older house in a town or village, but they are now attracted to that by the incentives that are available from the different grant and funding streams.

Deputy Brian Leddin

What is the position where a property is put on the open market, somebody acquires it and it remains derelict? I refer to circumstances where the new owner does not refurbish the property. At what point will the council go back to the new owner and say that the only reason the previous owner sold the property was because it had been stated that a CPO was going to issue? How much grace does the CCMA give to people in those circumstances? I can think of many properties in Limerick city that have changed hands but in respect of which nothing has been done. It is disappointing to see that.

Mr. Gordon Daly

It is something we consider on a case-by-case basis. If we have acquired the property compulsorily and have sold it on, we will probably have more control over the matter.

We will have indicated to the new purchasers that they have six to 12 months to get working on the property. We have built timelines into it. The message we give purchasers is that we have already compulsorily acquired this property once and, if they, as the new owners, do not activate it, there is a risk we will do it again. That has rarely had to happen. As to when property is put up for sale by the owners themselves, we proceed on a case-by-case basis. We afford a reasonable amount of time. Applying for planning permission or for a Croí Cónaithe grant are indicators that somebody is serious about it.

Deputy Brian Leddin

The council is very willing to engage quickly with a new owner.

Mr. Gordon Daly

Absolutely, yes.

An Cathaoirleach

I have one or two more questions. Have there been reports on the progress of the town centre pathfinder programme, which is probably only a year or so old? I know 26 towns were selected for town centre pathfinder projects.

Ms Ann Marie O'Connor

I do not have a report on it, as such. Some 26 towns were identified. A national office is now in place to support those towns and 24 officers have been appointed. Each of those towns is now to prepare a town plan, as the Cathaoirleach will now. There is stakeholder involvement in that. There is some funding to support towns in carrying out those plans. That work is under way at the moment. We in the vacant homes unit are very much engaged with the national town centre office, which is based in the LGMA, because we obviously need to co-ordinate what we are doing on vacancy. Addressing vacancy and dereliction should be a key part of those town plans so we are working very closely with that office on that. We have started inviting town centre first officers to attend our vacant homes officers' network meetings so that we can all hear what is happening in the space. My understanding is that the plans are currently being drawn up across those towns. Their publication will be the next step.

An Cathaoirleach

Of the 26, 24 have town centre first officers.

Ms Ann Marie O'Connor

Town regeneration officers.

An Cathaoirleach

Are they full-time like the vacant homes officers?

Mr. Gordon Daly

It is normally a separate position from that of the vacant homes officer.

Ms Ann Marie O'Connor

It is, yes.

An Cathaoirleach

It is separate but is it a full-time position?

Mr. Gordon Daly

Yes, absolutely.

Ms Caroline Timmons

They are funded by the Department of Rural and Community Development.

An Cathaoirleach

Perhaps I should be approaching the Department of Rural and Community Development for a report on progress rather than the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage.

Ms Caroline Timmons

We work jointly with that Department already so there is no problem with requesting a report from either Department. We can co-operate and produce that.

An Cathaoirleach

My final question is on the ready to build scheme. It is not something I was particularly aware of. Is the scheme more aimed at sites local authorities own outside towns and villages? Is there a density level set for it? How is the separate development of sites managed? Is it plots or is it a site? How does the ready to build scheme work and what has the response been like? It sounds quite positive. It is a serviced sites initiative.

Ms Caroline Timmons

Yes, it is a serviced sites initiative, as the Deputy has identified. We launched it last September. Since then, we have been asking the local authorities to propose a programme of sites to us. They have been putting that together over the last while and the data we have got back suggest that there are certainly more than 100 sites that they would be willing to bring into a programme. The next piece is for them to start advertising those sites for sale to the public. Under that programme, we are expecting to see sites on the curtilage of villages and small towns, where you might not see new supply, that would be of benefit to someone who wants to come to live in the area. Such people will get the benefit of a cheaper site because we will provide the funding to have the site serviced. It seems to be a positive step forward. The local authority in Tipperary and other areas are coming forward with sites. We would like to see it moving a little bit more this year so we are going to put a little bit more emphasis on it as we come into the second half of the year, particularly in the Department, to make sure that programme goes ahead.

An Cathaoirleach

It is about land that local authority owns, perhaps a couple of acres, within a settlement boundary such as one would see in a development plan. Is a certain density set for those areas?

Ms Caroline Timmons

We have not put in a density rule.

Mr. Kieran Kehoe

To give our case as an example, we are looking at those smaller towns and villages as being more suitable for the scheme. We have identified sites across four villages. They are serviced as far as the roadside. The scheme just reduces the ultimate cost of fully servicing them. We then look at the appropriate number of sites. Depending on the size of the field or site, you might get four, ten or 12 houses in. There is no restriction with regard to density but it should be appropriate to the village. Obviously, it is not going to be a site of three quarters of an acre but something that will make the cost of servicing worthwhile.

An Cathaoirleach

It could be a very valuable initiative. As a former county councillor, I know there is a constant argument that it is impossible to get permission for a one-off house. Despite this, we see that 25% of planning applications or more are for one-off houses. People want to live in rural Ireland and have a right to do so. However, if you can bring them into these serviced sites in the towns, it brings life back to those towns. It does not suck the life out of them, as we see in many other cases. It would manage that need in respect of rural housing. People could still live close to the farm or the family, although living within a town centre. It makes perfect sense with regard to both societal and climate objectives. Is there a report on the ready to build scheme? It has only just-----

Ms Caroline Timmons

It is too early. To be honest, we are only getting the data in now as to what councils will do. As we see them sell those sites, we will produce reports. We expect to start seeing reports later in the year.

An Cathaoirleach

Is there a requirement on local authorities to identify sites for the ready to build scheme?

Ms Caroline Timmons

We have asked all of them to identify sites for the scheme.

An Cathaoirleach

That is great. I am out of questions.

Deputy Brian Leddin

On the embodied carbon in existing buildings, notwithstanding what is being done at the national level, there is scope to look at this at the local level. Larger buildings in particular involve a lot of concrete and there is a carbon value associated with that. If we had a sense of that value for a number of buildings, it would inform us. It would also inform planning as we go forward. For example, we could say a given number of kilotons would be saved if we did not knock a particular building. With Limerick City and County Council being such a trailblazer in the context of vacant and derelict sites, perhaps it might take a look at that and see whether its staff could be tasked with it. Any work it does will inform that national piece. It is happening and it is going to happen. Ireland is a little bit behind. We are waiting for European regulation. Other countries are getting ahead of it. I do not see why Ireland cannot do so as well.

An Cathaoirleach

Unless there is anything the witnesses would like to add, I will thank them for their attendance and for their incredible work. As I said at the start, there has been a concerted effort such as we have never seen before across local government and in the Department. We have seen that over recent years. With regard to the comment on the voids, to me, it does not matter whether a local authority property has been vacant for six months or six weeks, a refurbishment to a high standard will provide a home. I am satisfied with the reporting on it.

I will go back over some of the things we have requested to make sure the witnesses are clear. They mentioned certain figures and targets in the first round. Deputy Ó Broin wrote them down, but could we get them for the committee as well? I ask that a six-monthly report on the targets set for the local authorities be considered so that we can see which local authorities are making progress and which are not because, as a committee, we could invite them in and hold them to account in the same way that we invited them in to present on the delivery of social housing. I asked about the breakdown between what was within town settlements and what is outside with regard to the Croí Cónaithe scheme and towns and villages. We would be interested in any updates or progress reports on the derelict sites review. On bringing homes back into use, if there is to be a reissue following the review of Part B, the committee would appreciate being kept up to date. We would also be interested in reporting on the town centre pathfinder projects. If and when reports come back on the ready to build scheme, such as reports on what local authorities have identified sites, those would be helpful. We could probably incorporate that into the targets for local authorities.

I thank the witnesses for their time. We really appreciate it. We ask them to keep up the good work.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.10 p.m. until 11 a.m. on Tuesday, 20 June 2023.