Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage debate -
Tuesday, 24 Oct 2023

Consideration of the Citizens' Assembly Report on a Directly Elected Mayor of Dublin: Discussion (Resumed)

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I thank members and witnesses for being here today to consider the report of the citizens' assembly on a directly elected mayor of Dublin. I note that an invitation was extended to the National Transport Authority, the HSE, the Department of Health and the Department of Education. I welcome from the National Transport Authority, Ms Anne Graham, CEO, and Mr. Hugh Creegan, deputy CEO. We have indications from the other bodies that written submissions are pending. We reserve the right to extend a future invitation to them. Unfortunately, we have a very tight timeline to return to the Dáil our report on the citizens' assembly. I thank the witnesses for attending.

This is one of three meetings. Last week, we met local authority chief executives and cathaoirligh. This week, we are meeting some of the agencies to which key powers may be devolved. At our next meeting, we will meet the chambers of commerce and public participation networks as a method of engaging with the voluntary sector.

We are very pleased to have the witnesses with us. Last week, we managed to have members keep their contributions to the issue of a directly elected mayor of Dublin, rather than asking about various operational matters. Given that we have a little bit more leeway today, I will allow members to extend their questioning slightly. I am sure the witnesses will be well able for such engagement but we will not allow members to go too far.

I will read a note on privilege. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place in which Parliament has chosen to sit, namely, Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. For those witnesses attending in the committee room, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contribution to today's meeting. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. Both members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy and it is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction should it be issued.

For witnesses attending remotely, there are some limitations to parliamentary privilege and, as such, they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a person who is physically present.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The opening statements will be published on the committee website after this meeting. I invite Ms Anne Graham to make her opening statement.

Ms Anne Graham

I thank the Leas-Cathaoirleach and members for the invitation to attend this committee. I understand the committee wishes to discuss the citizens' assembly report on a directly elected mayor for Dublin. I am joined by Mr. Hugh Creegan, deputy CEO of the National Transport Authority, NTA, and director of planning and capital investment.

The report identifies that transport is one of the areas that should be devolved as a function to a directly elected mayor of Dublin. Transport is a very broad term but given that the local authorities are already roads authorities, I assume it is public transport that is being recommended for transfer in the citizens' assembly report. The NTA recognises that it is ultimately a decision of the Government to legislate for a directly elected mayor for Dublin and to set out what functions are devolved to that role. There are a few issues I suggest be considered prior to the legislation being completed.

The NTA currently has the statutory function to deliver a strategic transport strategy for the greater Dublin area, which incorporates counties Wicklow, Meath and Kildare as well as the four Dublin local authorities. The choice of this wider area for strategic transport planning recognises that public transport serving Dublin does not stop at the border of the four Dublin authorities but extends into the hinterland. Consideration should be given to whether a transport strategy can be delivered for Dublin without considering how the counties in the eastern region would be developed such that they support a Dublin transport strategy.

The NTA manages the Government’s investment in sustainable transport infrastructure and prioritises that investment based on what returns the greater benefit. We act as approving authority under the public spending code for investment in active travel and heavy and light rail infrastructure. In terms of bus priority infrastructure, the NTA is the sponsoring agency for BusConnects and is proposing to deliver this infrastructure directly, which overcomes the fact that this infrastructure crosses the boundary between Dublin city and the three Dublin county councils as well as Wicklow County Council, ensuring a more efficient delivery than if it was delivered by each local authority.

The NTA has been designated as the competent authority to regulate the delivery of public transport services under EU Regulation 1370/2007, as amended, and the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008, as amended. The delivery of subsidised public transport services must be provided through a public services contract. There is currently only one public services contract whose geographic area of operation is fully contained within the Dublin local authorities, namely, the Luas contract covering the red and green lines, which is managed by Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, on behalf of the NTA. The other main public transport contracts with Dublin Bus, Bus Éireann, Go-Ahead Ireland and Iarnród Éireann all extend beyond the Dublin local authority boundaries.

The NTA has developed the technologies that support integrated information and ticketing systems that are deployed nationally. Consideration should be given to whether there are any benefits to having a stand-alone ticketing system for Dublin, given that the services are not contained within the boundary.

The NTA is currently the national taxi regulator, which licenses all small public service vehicle, SPSV, and manages the administration of SPSV driver licensing. The taximeter area is national and the regulations apply on a national basis. The splitting of taximeter areas would require a change in legislation and could lead to inefficiencies compared with a centralised system.

The NTA has built considerable expertise in strategic transport planning, management of sustainable transport investment, public transport services and infrastructure design, contract management, information and ticketing technologies, and bus and SPSV regulation. The division of the current responsibilities of the NTA to city regions would require the development of this expertise in those authorities which I believe would lead to inefficiencies overall. I will be happy to take any questions.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Based on the experience of last week, and because we are not dealing with specific legislation or holding the NTA to account on a particular set of accounts, we will be asking for the witnesses' expertise and whatever answers they give will be considered in that way. That gives them some latitude.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I thank the witnesses for being with us to discuss the concept of a directly elected mayor for Dublin. The citizens assembly did a lot of work on this and produced a comprehensive report after many Saturdays and weekends of deliberation. Despite this, it is very difficult to sum up the vision of a directly elected mayor for Dublin in a report. Ms Graham hit the nail on the head for me when she said she assumes it is responsibility for public transport that is being recommended for transfer because it is not clear in the report. The report sets out a vast array of functions that will potentially transfer from different Departments and local authorities to the office of a directly elected mayor for Dublin. It is our job to try to figure out, based on the recommendations of the citizens' assembly, what that would look like in practical terms and how we would arrive at a straightforward question to put to members of the public in Dublin in a plebiscite. Is the only practical way to interpret the report that it is public transport that we are speaking about?

My second question relates to the points Ms Graham made about the greater Dublin area transport network and how it does not just stop at the Dublin electoral area boundaries. I represent Dublin Mid-West, which includes Lucan, a town bordering County Kildare, and Brittas, which borders County Wicklow. I am familiar with the trains and buses from Lucan to Leixlip, Maynooth and so on. On the far side of the town, the No. 65 bus route serves Baltinglass, Ballyknocken and Ballymore Eustace. I am aware that we cannot have public transport stopping at the periphery of Dublin. The NTA is responsible for the whole greater Dublin area. When this committee meets, representatives from Wicklow, Kildare, Laois and lots of different places on the wider commuter belt attend. If responsibility for public transport in Dublin were to be transferred to a particular entity that only had responsibility for Dublin, does Ms Graham believe that would have a negative knock-on effect on the area just outside of Dublin, the Pale, if you like?

Ms Anne Graham

It is our assumption that it is public transport that is being considered, but it really depends on what the function is and the extent to which it is transferred. I listed the very high-level functions that the NTA delivers in the Dublin region. If it is transport strategy development, that covers not just public transport but all transport, including freight and roads. On a strategic basis, that covers all modes of transport, including roads, that are already included in the greater Dublin area transport strategy.

On the question of whether it would have a negative knock-on effect, again it depends on what functions are transferred in terms of the lists that we discussed around the greater Dublin area and public transport. As I said, I think it depends on the extent to which those functions are transferred. We would need to consider the extent of that, the impact on the NTA in terms of what remains for us to deliver, and whether there are inefficiencies associated with splitting expertise across a number of different bodies rather than basing it in one body, as is currently the case.

Deputy Emer Higgins

Will Ms Graham give us an indication of how having a Dublin mayor with responsibility for transport would work successfully from a practical perspective in ensuring there is a level of collaboration and integration with the directors of services in the four local authorities, the NTA and the Department of Transport?

Ms Anne Graham

I am sorry, but it is very hard for us to say how that is going to work when we do not have a proposed structure in front of us. It could be quite a complicated structure, which would mean it could get very unwieldy in terms of delivery. The only experience we have is what has been proposed in terms of the directly elected mayor for Limerick. There, we still retain a non-statutory function to deliver a transport strategy, but there is now a commission and a subcommittee of the mayor's office that looks after transport and the delivery of the NDP in that area. We report into that committee if we are asked to do so by the mayor's office. That is where the interaction is currently as regards what is proposed in Limerick. We are guided by what has been published in relation to that and it remains to be seen whether that is what will be proposed for Dublin. Again, we will be guided by what ultimately goes into the proposed Bill.

Deputy Emer Higgins

That is very useful. We will all feed into the proposed Bill. It is very difficult for the witnesses attending these sessions because we are not working off a detailed framework. We are almost trying to create one. I appreciate Ms Graham's input. What she said is really useful.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I thank the witnesses for attending. Following on from what we have heard, I think it is reasonable to say that if there is a directly elected mayor for Dublin, the most basic interpretation of this would be the Limerick model that has been discussed, whereby the NTA would effectively stay as is in terms of what it is doing, but it would have a reporting-in function to a directly elected mayor in Dublin. The most extreme situation would be one in which everything the NTA does as regards public transport in the Dublin area would be completely devolved.

If we do not end up with the minimum or the maximum, what are the other options and how might they work if some of the NTA's competencies were devolved and some were retained? How could that be split? Does the NTA have a view on that?

We have seen some great work done on active travel by the local authorities but we have also seen a lack of a joined-up approach. In my constituency Fingal County Council and Dublin City Council meet so I see these on-road active travel, protected cycle lanes and then the border with Dublin City Council comes in and the cycle lanes disappear all of a sudden, even though there is still the same space for them. That shows the lack of co-ordination between local authorities, although some of those cases have been worked on. I know that eventually all of these things will join up but there has been a lack of an immediate overall strategy.

Did the Dublin transport office have a responsibility for the greater Dublin area or was it just for what is within the four Dublin local authority areas? I ask the witnesses to answer that and to address the question I put on a scenario where if we do not end up with the minimum or the maximum then what areas could we be looking at. Does the NTA have a view on which areas it make sense to devolve and which ones it would not make sense to devolve? For example, in her opening statement Ms Graham referenced the expertise in ticketing technologies. It could make infinite sense to keep that expertise at a national level but that the office of a directly elected mayor could avail of that expertise. Does the NTA have views on that? That is what we are trying to explore and get a handle on.

Ms Anne Graham

We are not the people who are designing this system and we have not given it huge consideration, given that we were only invited to consider the report a week ago. We have not given any detailed consideration to what the structure would be. All we are trying to set out for the committee is that all of those deliveries are within one body and any part that is taken out would lead to some duplication and inefficiencies in the use of expertise. That goes across everything we do. I am not just saying it about ticketing; I am also saying it about management of contracts for the delivery of services; tendering of public transport services; contract management associated with the delivery of infrastructure; oversight of the infrastructure; management of grants; and taxi regulation. It goes across a myriad of responsibilities.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Let us take contracting and tendering processes and the kind of staff resources that would be allocated to that as an example. How many people are we talking about in that area? If some of those people were taken away and given to a directly elected mayor what would happen? Is half of the staff complement working on transport in Dublin or in the greater Dublin area or how does it work?

Ms Anne Graham

It is not that easy to say because they are working on a national basis. They may be doing contracts within Dublin but they could also be working on contracts in rural areas. It is not that simple. We would have to conduct a detailed process on how that would be divided up. The Deputy referenced the Dublin transport office. When it was doing transport strategies on a non-statutory basis I think it was only working in the four Dublin local authority areas but we will check that out. It might have been wider than that. It was a similar area to what is currently covered by our transport strategy. The difference for us is that ours is on a statutory basis.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Yes.

Ms Anne Graham

The Deputy knows that the NTA was originally conceived of as being a Dublin transport authority. That is how the initial 2008 legislation was framed but then there was a requirement, under EU regulations, to have a competent authority to look after the regulation of public transport services delivery. That is why a national competent body was chosen rather than a local one. If the Dublin mayor was to be given responsibility for managing the contracts for delivery of services, that would require a change in the legislation associated with that element of our work, which is in the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

On that, if that competency was given to a directly elected mayor in Dublin, in order for that to work would staff and resources have to be shifted with that in full or could it be that the responsibility lies with a directly elected mayor and their office but all the work is done through the NTA, which is then simply reporting in? Would that be unworkable or unfeasible? It might work in the short term or at the start as things are being set up or transitioned but would that be unworkable in the long term or is it a possibility? These are the kind of things we are trying to get views on.

Ms Anne Graham

There is nothing that is unworkable. Any variation of what the Deputy is proposing can be made to work. We must ask if it is the most efficient way of working and that is what we are posing in our opening statement. That is the kind of thing that needs to be looked at if functions are removed. Even if the function is retained and if the work is retained, we must examine if there is a further layer of reporting that sometimes builds in inefficiencies. That is not to say that could not be made to work. I could not say it would be unworkable.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

The concerns around inefficiencies are on two levels. There are risks that an additional and unnecessary layer could be introduced that does not necessarily add a huge amount, though it could be argued that it is an addition in democratic accountability and strategic oversight. That alone would be valuable. There could also be a duplication or dilution of expertise, as opposed to having it under one house. Both of those scenarios could potentially cause problems and they are the kind of things that need to be looked out for.

Ms Anne Graham

Those are the things that need to be considered. In the last iteration of our transport strategy, which we have just completed and which the Minister approved earlier this year, we set up a structure that included a number of councillors and representatives across the Dublin local authority areas; all of the local authority areas; and the regional assembly areas. We almost mirrored a structure that could be set up on a more statutory basis under a mayor's office in making sure we got input from the local authorities and their representatives as we developed the transport strategies.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

That touches on another matter. I refer to democratic accountability for the NTA and the work it does in Dublin. On a statutory basis, what does that democratic accountability look like? Is it-----

Ms Anne Graham

Accountability is to the Oireachtas and the Committee on Transport and Communications.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

There is no formal way for the local authorities to engage. They can talk to the NTA and invite it to meetings but there is no formal statutory role for the local authorities at all, is there?

Ms Anne Graham

Other than the chief executive of Dublin City Council, who is an ex officio member of the NTA board.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

That is a massive gap or deficit. I am not criticising anyone in that. There are three other Dublin local authorities and there are elected councillors. Public transport policy in the Dublin area is hugely strategically significant so to have accountability to the Oireachtas and not to the local authorities is a huge gap.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

That provides a nice segue into what I will ask about but I have a few initial points to make. One of the things that jumps out from the report of the Dublin citizens' assembly is that it recommends a wide-ranging area of powers that should be devolved to the mayor. Transport is one of those areas that hits home because it affects and impacts people's everyday lives. There is a real sense within Dublin that we do not have an effective transport system and it is a problem for people who are trying to plan what routes they have and will take. They cannot guarantee that they will be in X place at a given time. The idea with BusConnects is that it will change things up but we have probably all noticed that the bus system has nearly ground to halt in terms of buses going missing. Having to wait a long time and buses falling off the real time information is a frustration that people have and they want somebody to be accountable for it.

I refer to what a directly elected mayor would be. With Transport for London, for example, the mayor is in charge of the strategic vision.

He not only sits on the board but chairs it. He is not responsible for the day-to-day operation but he is responsible for the strategic vision of it, in a similar manner to Ms Graham. In Manchester now we see the mayor is able to tender for the privatised bus service. He has pulled people together and tendered for the bus service. Manchester now has a new public bus service. It is important for local authorities, public and elected officials to take back control. From Ms Graham's experience of dealing with other transport chiefs throughout Europe, which she no doubt must do, what would she consider to be best practice in how city transport infrastructure operates? Will she give a couple of examples of what she believes is best practice and the difficulties they have, on which we could potentially base how a mayor would deal with strategic transport infrastructure in Dublin?

Ms Anne Graham

To counter some of what Senator Moynihan said about our bus and transport infrastructure, we know that we need to make improvements. That is set out in the transport strategy for the greater Dublin area. That is what we set out in BusConnects. What the Senator refers to around services being dropped happened last year. At the moment all our operators are operating almost a full service delivery because they have been able to recruit enough drivers to deliver the service. I believe, if the Senator does not mind, we need to have the service judged on its current performance rather than its performance last year.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

Absolutely, but I will give an example. My bus is meant to come every ten minutes. Last year my bus service was amazing. I went out this morning and I had to wait 40 minutes. Two buses went missing off the real time information. That is the daily lived reality of Dubliners who are trying to get out. This morning I was deciding whether to bike it, bus it or drive. I was on my way back to get my car when a bus arrived. That is the reality for most people. I would have been coming in in the car otherwise.

Ms Anne Graham

That is not the type of service we want to deliver. I am also a bus user and that is not my experience on a day-to-day basis. However, it is an experience from time to time, there is no doubt about that. We have problems around road congestion in our city. That is growing and also impacts on the efficiency of the bus service.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

These are just buses gone missing. It happens to me probably once a week-----

Ms Anne Graham

They get caught up in congestion.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

It happens in my constituency all the time currently. It is not just the Senator's experience.

Ms Anne Graham

We keep a very close watch on what is happening on our public transport system because we are responsible for the delivery of that service. Yes, the Senator's experience today was bad. We would not want that to happen at all. We want to ensure that the full service is not judged on an unfortunate experience on a given morning.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

It is something that more people are saying. It has become worse in the past couple of months. Any public representative could tell Ms Graham they are getting queries about it. It is happening a lot more.

Ms Anne Graham

We produce the data that shows what has operated and the punctuality of those services. However, the punctuality is disimproving because the road congestion is growing in the city. That is an issue and no matter who is going to manage the service going forward, that is going to be a problem. Getting back to what the right structure is, I do not believe we can set forward what is the best structure for the city. That has to be assessed independently because we are involved in the delivery of services in the city so of course we are going to present that we believe we deliver a good service on behalf of the citizens of Dublin and our operators. We know it can be improved. We know what is required to improve that in terms of the delivery of BusConnects. We know what has caused the delay in the delivery of BusConnects because in a full economy the operator is finding it difficult to recruit drivers. That is where we want to get to. We put the infrastructure through An Bord Pleanála and it is now, I hope, going to get to a stage where we can start construction of bus priority next year. There are the improvements that have been set out that we want to deliver in terms of an improved service. However, can that be delivered by a mayor's office more efficiently than by our office in the NTA? That is for others to judge. That is not something that we can put forward because we would obviously put our best foot forward on what we deliver.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

From her own dealings, does Ms Graham have international comparisons on how other city transport infrastructure is structured?

Ms Anne Graham

The Senator referenced Transport for London, because that is probably one that we model ourselves on and have done in recent years in terms of being able to manage every aspect of the public transport system. The value in the structure we have, which we have mirrored on Transport for London, is that we are able to manage not just the delivery of the public transport services but the infrastructure, such as the ticketing equipment, that supports those services. It is a holistic approach in terms of the delivery of the services in the NTA. Can that be replicated in another body? Of course it can but whether that is the most efficient or most effective way is for others to judge.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

Does Ms Graham believe that Transport for London is inefficient because a mayor oversees it?

Ms Anne Graham

That is not what I said. I said that we have followed it in terms of how we planned our own organisation. We looked to the UK in terms of the models that were delivered there. They manage their bus services because they contract those services. We also contract the services that are delivered in Dublin.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

I would like to get an idea about different structures but Ms Graham says she is probably not best placed to do that. Has she any suggestions of people who have expertise in comparative structures in transport infrastructure on a citywide basis?

Ms Anne Graham

Not off the top of my head but I am sure we can assist the committee in recommending some bodies of work that have been done-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

There must have been comparisons of different cities. There must be even anecdotal interactions with those around different systems. If there is any that strikes Ms Graham, the Senator would benefit from that.

Ms Anne Graham

We could certainly try to do that. We did not have time, as I said, in advance of this committee meeting but we could certainly assist on that. The Department of Transport can assist in that space as well. The Department would probably have more information on structures than we would necessarily have. We can certainly assist.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

The committee could ask the Library and Research Service to look at comparative structures across the EU where there are directly-elected mayors or transport authorities, and see what they deliver.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I might take my slot. I am a strong believer that our current system of local government is so broken, fragmented and weak in power that even the addition of a figurehead that only champions and has no power would be an improvement. Everybody is in agreement that that alone would not be sufficient. However, people who advocate for a directly-elected mayor say there would be a benefit in having that mayor in two key areas. There is probably a third as well. The first one is to create a greater efficiency of a citywide vision, for example the Dublin bikes project in Dublin city which is well liked. We have struggled to replicate that in the other three local authorities or to have any sort of cross-council operation of it. There are other active travel projects, for example the Sutton to Sandycove cycle lane. A long time was spent across different agencies and there was no single voice championing such cross-council projects. That is the first area where I think a directly-elected mayor would have a great benefit. Are there projects like that where the existence of four Dublin local authorities, and there is no suggestion in the report that they would be abolished, has posed a challenge for the NTA? The second reason people think that a directly-elected mayor for Dublin would be a benefit is that such a person would be a champion for Dublin-specific issues to national agencies that perhaps do not have a Dublin focus.

In some ways the NTA, because of the scale of its operations in Dublin, has more of a focus on Dublin than most national agencies, but in health, housing and other areas there are national agencies that probably do not pick up early on emerging issues in Dublin. The feeling is that a directly elected mayor for Dublin would voice those early emerging issues and call for solutions from national agencies. In the NTA's area, there is the failure to deliver big Dublin infrastructure projects by Governments in a timely and budget-driven way, and there are reasons things happen. The feeling is a voice for Dublin would demand more from national agencies. I am thinking of the decision to cancel the metro project between 2012 and 2015 or 2016 and whether that would have happened if there had been a democratically elected mayor in place.

I am being parochial but I keep telling the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform that the Finglas Luas line is one of the most advanced lines, is shovel-ready and all of that type of stuff. A project like that could be championed and attract public expenditure investment more quickly than if it were left up to different local authorities or to a national agency that might have priorities around the rest of the country. The first part is efficiency between the four local authorities in that a single voice might drive that and the second part is being a champion for Dublin-specific issues to national agencies. Could that be helpful?

Ms Anne Graham

I will start and Mr. Creegan might cover the active travel side of things. We do have a Dublin focus. Some rural local authorities, and certainly other representatives here, would say we have too much of a Dublin focus at times and we are not delivering in rural Ireland, so we definitely have to balance what we deliver in Dublin and what we deliver outside it. The reason we sometimes have a focus on Dublin is that we are statutorily required to produce a transport strategy for the greater Dublin area and an implementation plan for how we are going to implement it. Ultimately, it comes down to what funding is available from central government. I do not know whether there would be any change to how funding can be raised for transport projects were a directly elected mayor in place. It would probably still be the case that we would be taking from a single capital pot each year. The decision to be made is really what is spent in Dublin and what is spent outside it, but it will still be one pot, I imagine. The decision around the cancellation of metro north was down to a funding issue more than anything else and an inability of the Government of the time to fund the project, so that would have been the case-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Although in hindsight, the decision to cancel it may have meant a much more expensive project in the long run.

Ms Anne Graham

We do not know that because we cannot really say that now, but the question is whether that would have happened with a directly elected mayor or not. The chances are it would have happened because the funding was going to be provided by central government, one way or the other.

Mr. Creegan might address active travel.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

We do not have many cross-boundary issues. I accept what Deputy O'Callaghan said. I can think of a few places where cycling infrastructure was built in one area and there was catch-up in the boundary. The Grange Road is one that springs to mind straight away. Ultimately, it was a timing issue and the city council caught up with Fingal County Council in due course. It is not a major problem for us. We do not get it perfectly and even if there was a mayor's office in place, the delivery agencies would still be the sub-local authorities so we would still be dealing with the same issues. Challenge-wise it is not a problem.

As for expanding the Dublinbikes scheme and trying to make it successful in other areas, Dublin city centre is commercially very attractive, so it is more successful in and suits the city centre. It is harder to roll that out elsewhere.

On the overall question as to whether the boundaries pose a major challenge, in our experience they do not. It is not perfect and our timing is not perfect all the time, but it is still not bad.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We have spoken many times about how the NTA provides the fleet and private operators like Go Ahead are using that fleet. We have talked about a similar system for e-bikes, for example, in the city. One of the challenges we have discussed is for the NTA to be able to co-ordinate that response across the four Dublin local authorities with existing schemes in place. There would be a challenge in operating that type of scheme. That is the type of scheme where people will say there is a Dublin-wide solution and that is what a mayor might drive. Even if he or she was not solely responsible for delivering it, a mayor could drive that sort of Dublin-wide solution. Do the officials accept the existence of the four local authorities sometimes leads to more fragmented solutions?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

It does, and our job is to co-ordinate them. We do that and are reasonably successful most of the time. For something like that, where we are trying to replicate one thing across all the local authorities, funding might well turn out to be the issue no matter who is controlling it. What works in one place on the basis that it has density does not work spread out across the other areas because there is not the same density.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Ms Graham and Mr. Creegan have identified the issue of funding. It is interesting to come back to that. I remind them of the name Jarrett Walker and the BusConnects project. I have never seen someone who has published a report become so passionate in advocating publicly for their report, as Mr. Walker was, in fairness to him. I am thinking of something like BusConnects that would be a big, visionary idea. In fairness to the NTA, it has been incredibly responsive to the feedback over time to the initial design. The authority has been quite good and responsive in changing routes and so on. It is not a criticism of that, but if I was to step back and look at the communication and delivery of that visionary plan for BusConnects, I wonder if a directly elected mayor taking up that project could have got better public buy-in for it. I say that as a Deputy who campaigned strongly against some of the measures the NTA was proposing. Deputies, councillors and local authorities will always think of their parochial interest, whereas there was a larger benefit to BusConnects. Other than the NTA, there were often few others championing the programme to the public. Do the witnesses see the merit in having that type of democratic support for solutions that might assist them?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

In that case, it possibly would have been helpful to have a political champion but whether even a mayor would have been brave enough to be that champion at the early stage of that project, I am not sure.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Mr. Creegan sounds like Sir Humphrey telling the minister he has made a very brave decision.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

This will sound parochial but I will use an example I am aware of with respect to protected cycle lanes. In my constituency, the main roads of Howth, Sutton and Baldoyle in the Fingal County Council area have all had protected cycle lanes for the past couple of years. Where there are not cycle lanes, there is, by and large, dedicated off-road cycling infrastructure in place on the main roads. As soon as one crosses into Dublin City Council's area, that all stops. What eventually happened is the first section of the Grange Road in the city council area now has a protected cycle land that joins up with the bit in Fingal. When cyclists come to a roundabout, that just stops and they go into an area that is heavily congested with traffic.

A huge amount of this traffic is caused by people in cars making school trips and local trips. The parents in the area all say there is no safe cycling route to the schools for their children, so there is no way they will put them on the roads. They all mention the great protected cycle lane but it stops right at the border between the Fingal County Council and Dublin City Council areas. They now say it stops at the roundabout just up the road from that border. There is a logic to how the lanes are being done in the city. There is Fairview, BusConnects and all the other main roads and all that will come into place. Right now, however, we have people stuck in traffic congestion wondering why on earth there cannot be sustainable transport options, especially when there has been significant investment in it. They feel it might be different if we had a political champion in a directly elected mayor, someone who had a mandate in these areas. These schemes are also controversial and they are not universally popular, so if we had a directly elected mayor who had campaigned on active travel and had a mandate for it, would that not help drive these things forward?

Based on their own knowledge of how these things are so slow to be delivered and are taking several years, they might be able to explain to us how a mayor might or might not make a difference. How is it that in one local authority area, with the NTA's funding, these were put in a few years ago but a few metres or miles away in another local authority area, they are not there, even though there is interest in active travel. I ask the witnesses to use that as an example to explain to us the problems that hold these things up. We are interested in whether a directly elected mayor would help to drive this faster and maybe our guests could give us some insight into that issue or throw some light on it. I only use that as example. I am sure there are other locations around the city where there are similarities.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

It really boils down to the fact that we are dealing with a backlog of need. The whole city, effectively, needs to be restructured to deliver those safe cycling facilities. In the case of the scheme the Deputy mentioned, it got brought down as far as the Hole in the Wall roundabout and it was stopped there. There are plans to extend that further but Dublin City Council has plans agreed with us on dozens and dozens of other roads around the city. It is question of what we prioritise. If we take the example in the Dublin City Council area of Griffith Avenue, from one end to the other there are four schools along that road and transformative provision was put in there. We are constantly trying to make judgments as to which are the best routes to do. It is not that a connection to Donaghmede or over towards Clare Hall will not get done. It will get done but it is not possible to do them all at the same time and that is really what it boils down to. If we had a mayor in place, his or her judgment might be slightly different from ours but it does not change the reality that we are all working off the one pot of money and we can only do X kilometres. The judgment might be slightly different, depending on who is making it, but the overall impact will broadly be the same.

Ms Anne Graham

I might just add that all four Dublin local authorities are working to an overall network. At least there is a network design in place, a high-level network that shows where all those connections have to be and then it is just a question of making sure we get delivery on as many of those as possible. One of the things that has happened in recent years in Dublin city is a focus on the delivery of that core network so that we get that movement between places. Up to now, funding was only available to do little bits and pieces around the place whereas now we really need to see the network benefits of the investment in safe infrastructure.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

The answers touch on something important. If a directly elected mayor is going to make a difference, not only does he or she need powers and competencies but he or she will also need to have access to funding. If a mayor is going to add value on active travel, it has got to be because someone runs for election as mayor, says that active travel is going to be a priority and is then able to invest extra resources in active travel. If the mayor is able to lobby for extra resources from central government, that will be great but without the ability to prioritise an area and say that by the end of the five-year term, delivery in this area will be accelerated through the provision of extra resources, then it is hard to see what the extra value would be. If a mayor is able to do that, however, then we could see quicker delivery. That is the difference that a directly elected mayor could potentially make. The mayor's office has to be bringing something extra, providing extra value, in order to be useful. Otherwise, it could just be another layer.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I want to flesh out that issue of funding. I ask our guests to clarify for the committee the process of drawing down or attracting funding for a project like a Luas or metro line. What mechanism is used currently?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

It starts with the national development plan, NDP. The latest NDP was published in 2021 and runs up to 2030. Effectively, that gave an overall envelope of investment funding and within that envelope, a certain amount is carved out for transport. The transport total, if my memory is correct, is €35 billion and public transport is a subset of that. Effectively, we have to work out the costs. We work off our transport strategy, which contains all of the schemes we want to do. For a scheme that is intended for development in the short term, it is a question of getting it developed up through planning, getting a cost estimate that is solid and then seeing, to put it bluntly, if it fits within the envelope of funding available, given all of the other projects that are there. There are two tests that it all boils down to. The first is whether the project fits within the funding that is available and the second is what level of priority the project has. Is it the most important project across the region or is something else going to trump it?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Who is the decision-maker in those cases?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

We propose and the Department of Transport and Minister for Transport will have an input into that.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The NTA makes a proposal to the Department of Transport and I presume that Department, in conjunction with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, makes the decision. Is that correct?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

It largely comes out of the NDP so most of the decisions are already set in that plan.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Most of the decisions are already made. Given that funding is already allocated, why would any Minister say "No" or delay something?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

If the money is available, I have never found a Minister, ever, saying "No" to something. It could be the case that cost estimates have increased, other projects have come forward that need to be done, or the money that people thought was available may not be available. These are the decisions that have to be made, ultimately.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That is useful in helping us to understand the decision-making process. Is there an element of borrowing or the ability to borrow involved or is it all set-aside public resources? In terms of a revenue-raising ability or an ability to borrow, a directly elected mayor may be able to increase the overall pot of money coming to Dublin. Would an ability to borrow be beneficial or would that take us into a different space?

Ms Anne Graham

Ultimately, it is a decision for the Oireachtas as to whether a mayor should be given those powers.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

If there was a dedicated NDP budget for Dublin, within which individual decisions could be moved around or swapped, would that give more flexibility to progress projects that might be ready more quickly than others or does the way it is set out at the moment provide a degree of certainty?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

The more one segments the overall pot and the more one says this must go here and that must go there, the more difficult it gets as time goes by. The assumptions one had on day one start to change.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

If either a Dublin section of the NTA or a directly elected mayor in conjunction with a Dublin section of the NTA had a ring-fenced public transport budget for Dublin, with a huge degree of flexibility in terms of how it can be spent without having to resort to the Minister, would that lead to greater delivery? Does sending it to the Minister and waiting for the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform to run it through the codes of practice and so on delay a project or is that not a factor at all?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

There is a process that one has to go through, which is what the Chair is referring to there. All projects that the State is funding across the country have to go through that process. I cannot imagine that this process will not exist. I am making an assumption here but I cannot imagine that it would get waived. It would be very odd if one part of the country had a set of tests to pass before a project could be approved but another part did not. Assuming that the same kind of procedures still exist, I do not think the speed of decision-making would change with a directly elected mayor.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Thank you. That is useful.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

In the last couple of years, has there ever been a situation where the NTA has lobbied to have additional powers devolved to it in the context of by-laws, for example? Has the NTA run into difficulties with any legislation and asked the Government to change it? I am just trying to get a sense of where the NTA might be facing blockages to delivery.

Ms Anne Graham

Not in Dublin. Currently we do transport strategies on a non-statutory basis in the other regional cities. Obviously we want to be in a position to bring Bus Connects forward and to be able to lodge planning applications. That is something that we now have the power-----

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

Has the NTA raised issues like the licensing of shared scooter schemes such as those we see in other jurisdictions, electric charging points or similar infrastructure? Has the NTA ever lobbied for anything it thinks it needs that would require legislative change?

Ms Anne Graham

There are always tweaks that we look for in our existing legislation but that is just to assist in delivery, and regulation in some places. I do not think we directly lobbied for any additional functions.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

What kind of tweaks does Ms Graham think would be helpful to assisting her job? I am trying to get a sense of blockages there might be if a mayor was in place.

Ms Anne Graham

I cannot recall any current blockages that could be replicated in the mayor's legislation. I cannot really think of anything at this stage, where his or her powers might be replicating our own.

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

I have one more question. Obviously, the delivery of BusConnects is absolutely key. Ms Graham mentioned traffic congestion as one of the reasons why the network is difficult with regard to delivering it. Has the NTA ever asked for, or would it appreciate, devolved powers on traffic control with regard to people parking or driving in bus lanes, or people parking illegally? The Garda response can be less than great at the best of times. Is there anything that Ms Graham thinks could be devolved in that sense?

Ms Anne Graham

What we have said, and we have said this through the consultation associated with the delivery of our planning of BusConnects corridors and sustainable transport corridors, was that it would only really work if a much stronger level of enforcement was in place. We believe that camera-based enforcement is the right approach, not just for the bus lanes but for other traffic management measures. However, it is really down to the Department of Transport and the Oireachtas to decide on who those powers are given to with regard to managing the enforcement of that kind of legislation.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That is dealt with in the Road Traffic and Roads Act 2023, which was passed in June.

Ms Anne Graham

Currently, An Garda Síochána is the body that enforces any of the road traffic legislation associated with BusConnects.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

I have a question on electric charging points. Does the NTA have a role in their provision?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

For private cars? No. That is managed by the zero emission vehicles Ireland, ZEVI ,office of the Department of Transport through the local authority system.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

Okay. It is related to this. I meet people who are frequently very annoyed about the lack of provision. It is not just the general public provision but there is that key issue in areas where there is newer housing. It is dense, people do not have driveways, and they cannot put in the charging points. There is also older housing that is densely built and designed, where they cannot put it in. There is a lack of anyone driving that. It is an area where one would imagine if there is a directly elected mayor who is accountable, these things would not be going on for years. Voters would expect them to be able to sort this out and get a bit of co-ordination on it. One wonders if things like that, which do not get enough prominence, might be driven a bit more by a directly elected mayor. That is just an observation.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I have one last point, and it is coming back to what Deputy O'Callaghan said. It is the democratic thing. In some ways, the purpose of a directly elected mayor would be to get national agencies like the NTA to do things that it may not want to do, or that it may have good reasons for not doing. The NTA might have a national focus, and a Dublin mayor would say, "Yes, that is your national focus but for Dublin, we want a bigger slice of the cake or we want this prioritised". It is difficult asking a national agency to do things that would be this specific.

I am thinking about Deputy O'Callaghan's point around the roll-out of specific projects, for example, in the Drumcondra-Santry area. There was consultation around the first phase of the metro north, then there was consultation around the bus rapid transit, BRT project. Then metro north changed, and they were no longer part of that project. Then the core bus corridor, CBC project came out and we are progressing on that. For all of those decisions, I cannot think of any democratic input as to why any one of those were or were not a priority. Those decisions are made as part of a consultation process but ultimately, who decided that BRT should or should not go ahead? Who decided that cycle lanes should or should not go ahead? Of course, cycle lanes are needed but my point is, there is often no democratic mandate for the prioritisation of the projects that are put out there, or a decision that a Luas to Finglas might be more important than a Luas to the Dublin mid-west area. Does the NTA accept that it has a lot of free rein at the moment without that level of local democratic input, or fragmented input as it is at present?

Ms Anne Graham

One of the things that has to be recognised is that transport planning is a particular expertise that I would like to think we retain within the NTA. We use the expertise and the modelling tools that we have. We produce a transport strategy that is based on data, growth patterns and projections that are very much based in reality, with regard to what can be delivered. That expertise is used to produce a transport strategy without looking at what area is going to benefit more than another. We apply it equally across the whole of the greater Dublin area to the best of our knowledge and expertise, and then we put that out for public consultation. In the development of that this time around we used, as I said, a very strong consultative committee of local representatives to assist us in building that as we went through the different stages.

On a non-statutory basis, one could say there was democratic input through that committee. There is no doubt but that it could be structured in a different way, on a much more statutory basis. We could still retain the expertise in the authority that we bring through that process. That was a model that has been considered.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

In a Department, the Minister will often set the priorities, and then between Governments, the Secretary General will make sure of consistency and so on. The problem for the NTA is that there are people out there who believe that we should not have any more cycle lanes. I am not one of them but there are people who believe that. They believe that they have no democratic way of expressing and implementing that view. If 90% of Dubliners believed that we should have no more cycle lanes, they do not actually have a way of expressing that. I am using a ludicrous example but I am using it to give an example of how very well-meaning experts in national agencies have far more say than the people who are elected. The problem is that the people who are elected are all very parochial. A point I would make is that the valid case for a directly elected mayor is that largely, the decisions around the prioritisation of projects and the particular mechanisms are left to unelected officials.

Ms Anne Graham

I do not really accept that term. What we have to do is provide the strategy around what should be delivered for the region for it to meet different priorities. They are Government priorities, and it is set out in the national development plan, NDP and the national planning framework with regard to what we have to achieve, and now in the area of climate action. We use those as the basis on which we design a transport strategy. With regard to who prioritises beyond that, it is more around what funding is made available through the NDP, and then through the Department of Transport. The Minister certainly has a lot of-----

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We are straying out of Ms Graham's expertise but that is the frustration. They are national Government priorities and decisions, and not Dublin decisions. That is the accountability element, and that is the real challenge.

I thank our witnesses for being with us today. We have concluded all of our questions, and I will adjourn the meeting.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.09 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Thursday, 26 October 2023.