Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage debate -
Tuesday, 7 Nov 2023

Future of the Maritime Area Regulatory Authority: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

I welcome everybody to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage. Today the committee meets with the Maritime Area Regulatory Authority, MARA. We are joined by: Dr. Mark Mellett, chairman of MARA; Ms Laura Brien, chief executive officer of MARA; and Mr. Rory O'Leary, principal officer with MARA. I thank the witnesses for their attendance here today.

Before we begin I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit, namely Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. For those witnesses attending in the committee room, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their contributions to today's meeting. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. Members and witnesses are expected not to abuse the privilege they enjoy. It is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if the statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity the witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The opening statement from MARA has been submitted to the committee and circulated to members. It will be published on the committee website after this meeting.

As a committee we worked on the Maritime Area Planning Act some 18 months ago, which was one of the most complex pieces of legislation and one of the most important the committee has worked on in the context of how we go about planning, development and consenting in Ireland's huge maritime area.

It was one of four important items of legislation. We had the national marine planning framework, the Maritime Area Planning Act, the Maritime Jurisdiction Act, and we have the marine protected areas legislation coming in too. For the first time, we have seen a concerted effort to look at our sea area, realise its potential and how it needs protection too. MARA is probably one of the most significant agencies to be established in recent times, with the role that it will play in regulating the sea area.

I invite Dr. Mellett to make his opening statement on behalf of MARA.

Dr. Mark Mellett

It is a privilege to be here today. I thank the committee for the invitation. I am joined by Ms Laura Brien, chief executive officer of MARA and by Mr. Rory O’Leary, principal officer in MARA.

Ireland’s capacity to tackle the existential threat of climate change is inextricably linked to the sea. For over a century, this State has been largely sea blind to the extraordinary opportunity that our ocean jurisdiction presents. The establishment of MARA probably represents the most strategic marine-related decision made in the history of the State. Under the auspice of the Maritime Area Planning Act, it will enforce a governance framework with authority to harness Ireland's ocean wealth while ensuring good environmental status. I am privileged, with my 11 colleagues on the board, to have been appointed by the Minister, Deputy O’Brien, and I confirm my commitment to this important role as chair. It might be helpful for the committee if I first set out the role of MARA, then my background and experience that makes me suitable for the role of chair, and finally I would like to spend some time setting out my ambition and vision for this agency.

MARA is an independent agency, established on 17 July 2023 by the Maritime Area Planning Act, under the aegis of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. It is responsible for the sustainable management of Ireland’s diverse maritime area. The role of the board of MARA is to set the strategic direction of the organisation, ensuring appropriate processes and procedures while performing its functions efficiently and effectively. Those functions include granting maritime area consents, MACs; marine licensing for specified scheduled activities; compliance and enforcement of MACs, licences and offshore development consents; administration of the extant foreshore consent portfolio; and promoting co-operation between maritime regulators.

If I may turn to my own experience and motivation for this role, I have spent most of my life at sea. I have amassed experience and competency levels in diverse, mainly marine related settings, from days as a youth working on my father's trawler, growing and exploring in the marine, to my final appointment as Chief of Staff of the Defence Forces, Ireland’s most senior naval officer, and the Government’s principal military adviser. Over the decades, I have built a close affinity with Departments, Government agencies, and local authorities. I have built strong links with coastal communities and environmental NGOs. I have worked hard with industry, marine developers, the supply chain and ports. I have invested significant time of my own in higher education development, as well as higher education institutions and research programmes, delivering significant marine related infrastructure.

In the context of my role as chairperson, I bring key competencies such as unique insights and experience from a career in the marine and public sector environments; visionary leadership with a proven track record in inspiring and motivating teams to deliver change; integrity and commitment to protecting the institutions of governance, in areas such as budgets, procurement, legal obligations, risk management and environmental and social governance. As a leader and chair, I am responsible for the effectiveness of MARA, displaying high standards of integrity and probity while setting the expectations regarding culture, values, and behaviour and tone for the State body. As chief of defence, I have led in many strategic and challenging environments where complex and often conflicting agendas prevailed. I have always endeavoured to institutionalise values based on courage, respect, integrity, loyalty and selflessness. I have led on core issues, notably diversity and inclusion and gender equality and empowerment of women, striving to inculcate a culture by design rather than one by default. I have experienced the subtle and sometimes not so subtle pushback when leading change. For most of my professional career, I have led in maritime security, upholding sovereignty and sovereign rights and the norms and principles associated with ecosystem-based governance.

For 25 years, in parallel with my professional career as a naval officer, I have specialised in marine spatial planning and ecosystem-based ocean governance, on which my PhD is based. I have a deep professional, practical and academic understanding of the Government, enterprise and civil society considerations of marine governance, recognising that, as the market does not always tell the ecological truth, the importance of ensuring good environmental status and sustainable development can only be assured where externalities are internalised. This requires that norms and principles such as sustainability, ecosystem-based approach, good science and simple rules are institutionalised in the governance framework, supported by an appropriate compliance regime.

I have a strong record of action in private and public sector transformation. Besides my leadership in maritime affairs, I was Ireland's senior Government representative in Afghanistan at a pivotal time. I led the Irish Naval Service deployments to the south Atlantic and into a Northern Irish port. I have strong insight into the opportunities enabled by the three strands of the Good Friday Agreement. I served as associate head of the National Maritime College of Ireland, during which I was co-founder of the Irish maritime and energy resource cluster, pioneering the development of renewable energy in Ireland. I also led the Irish Naval Service and my experience as Chief of Staff of the Defence Forces and the Government's principal military adviser, as well as my experience in the Defence Forces during the pandemic, have enhanced my capacity for the role of chairman of MARA. I also serve as chair of the board of Sage Advocacy and as a board member and council member of the Irish Management Institute and I am an adjunct professor with the school of business and law in UCC. I run my own company, Green Compass.

In the role of chair, my responsibility will be for the future, working with the board and executive team to deliver effectively on MARA's mandate. Its inauguration is a decisive step in upholding Ireland's sovereignty at sea. Sovereign rights that are not upheld are more imaginary than real. MARA will be a key player in the governance, co-ordination and protection of our oceans, providing the necessary reassurance and building the trust with all its key stakeholders, namely, Government, the citizen, industry, fishers, environmental NGOs, offshore renewable energy developers, supply chain, ports, local communities and more. As an overarching priority, MARA must have the vision to develop into the best offshore consenting agency in the world, with a global reputation for efficiency, probity and foresight.

One of our first priorities is for the board and the executive to prepare and adopt MARA's strategic plan for the period from 2024 to 2027, establishing trust with all stakeholders. The preparation of our first strategy is a great opportunity to identify our shared vision for MARA implementing world class marine planning. Working collaboratively with all its partners, MARA will support the pillars of Ireland’s marine planning system by bringing its expertise, knowledge and skills to enhance forward planning in the maritime area; developing a well-functioning transparent consenting system, consistent with the principles of proper marine planning; and implementing a rigorous, but proportionate, compliance and monitoring programme supporting sustainability. MARA will build expertise in its people, its processes and its technology, ensuring that through good management and transparent decision-making, our marine resources are optimised.

MARA will be a key enabler in respect of Ireland’s ambitions for the offshore renewable energy sector, facilitating streamlined consenting, providing certainty to industry and developers, and delivering a pathway to investment. MARA, at the centre of the new regulatory regime, will also support delivery of other projects of strategic importance, including cabling, telecoms projects, ports development, drainage projects, sewerage schemes, and so on, facilitating the State to harness significant benefits from realising a low-carbon economy, ensuring energy security and presenting new opportunities for economic growth.

MARA has a pivotal role working with key stakeholders, in particular, the Minister, Deputy O’Brien, the Minister of State, Deputy Noonan, and the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, the Minister, Deputy Ryan, and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, the Minister, Deputy Coveney, and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, local authorities, and An Bord Pleanála, together with a range of other Departments and State agencies.

Before I conclude, let me turn briefly to the twin challenge and opportunity of our time, namely, offshore renewable energy to address the climate crisis. Ireland is a key emerging market in offshore renewable energy. The scale of our resource is huge. Our sea area has the potential to be more than ten times that of our land mass. With the richest accessible energy resource on the planet, harnessing this renewable energy will make a massive contribution towards achieving regional renewable energy self-sufficiency, putting us on a direct path to net zero carbon emissions while at the same time future-proofing our economy and quality of life.

Ireland has the potential to produce hundreds of gigawatts of renewable energy, initially wind energy but later wave and tidal energy.

The State has moved to a plan-led approach for our offshore renewable energy ambitions. This will help ensure delivery in several overlapping phases in a planned, strategic, economical and sustainable way, which will also guide investment within this sector. This is a challenging time internationally for the market, so we need to be sure-footed, with the ambitious vision for the future balanced with a pragmatic eye on enabling the next steps for phases 1 and 2 and beyond towards a future framework. Working with its partners across government, industry, and civil society while building the required confidence, MARA will be a critical agency in delivering this ambition.

I thank the members for their attention. Together with the chief executive officer of MARA, I will try to respond to any questions they may have.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Dr. Mellett. He has outlined a very comprehensive and extensive range of qualifications and his experience to lead the organisation. I thank him for setting these out for us.

Each member will have seven minutes in total in which questions may be asked and answered. We will take Deputy Ó Broin first.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I thank Dr. Mellett for his opening remarks. I apologise as I will have to leave a little early to attend a debate in the Dáil just after 4 p.m., but I will check the transcript later.

Dr. Mellett is very welcome. This will be his first of many regular appearances before our committee. Many of us were very keen to have his role established as quickly as possible on foot of the passing of the legislation. It is good to have him here. In addition to noting his qualifications, which are not only extremely impressive but also very broad-ranging, as is appropriate, I welcome his specific focus on the ecosystems-led approach to this enterprise, because that will be the key to its success or failure.

An issue that came up regularly when dealing with the planning legislation and doing the pre-legislative scrutiny of the marine protected areas legislation was that of co-design. There are all sorts of challenges to ensuring that as we accelerate the delivery of renewable offshore energy, which almost everybody in this committee wants to see, we do not jeopardise other important usages of the maritime area, including those concerning fishing and coastal communities. I am referring in particular to the protection and restoration of our marine biodiversity. This emerged very strongly in our committee reports on the previous legislation and the maritime area Bill. In developing his strategic plan, it might be worthwhile for Dr. Mellett to consider ways of incorporating principles of co-design in dealing with diverse communities. If he does, he will start off on a really good footing, setting us off on a good trajectory.

I have three specific questions for Dr. Mellett and the team. We are still waiting for the general scheme of the marine protected areas legislation to be published. The Minister has told us it is almost finished and should be published this month. International experience indicates that it usually takes about two years to implement such legislation after its passage. Will not having it in place present challenges for Dr. Mellett as a regulator? How will he manage the period between the decisions on consents that he will have to take in the short to medium term and the situation he will be in not only when the marine protection areas legislation is passed but also when we get into the mapping and designation of activities?

Let me proceed to the second question. Dr. Mellett is absolutely correct that independent data will be key to having evidence-based decision-making. This is one of the areas in which we are very weak. Therefore, could Dr. Mellett give us his initial thoughts on how much work needs to be done to bring the independent data up to scratch, particularly before we have the marine protected areas legislation and when he is making decisions on consents, particularly for the legacy projects on the eastern seaboard?

The third question is on the inevitable issue that will arise over trade-offs. We need the renewable energy but environmental NGOs, coastal communities and, in particular, small inshore fishing communities have regularly expressed fear at meetings of this committee that in the rush to fix the renewable energy challenge, there could be trade-offs that will have negative impacts. Is Dr. Mellett acutely aware of that? How does he envisage his role in ensuring the best possible balance in making decisions such that we get the renewable energy but not at the expense of marine biodiversity and the economic well-being of coastal communities?

Dr. Mark Mellett

I thank the Deputy. He has really summed up our challenges very succinctly. I will deal with the last point first. The challenge for us is that perfection is the enemy of the good. We have an existential challenge in that 37 billion metric tons of carbon are going into the atmosphere each year. Ireland is challenged in this regard because our carbon footprint is not being reduced at the speed we would like. The means by which we can accelerate the opportunity to bring the trapped electrons ashore is something we should keep our eye on. That said, we have almost 900,000 sq. km of sea area in respect of which we have jurisdiction and sovereignty over seabed and sub-seabed resources.

Regarding space, there is a trade-off regarding areas of that jurisdiction that are quite benign from an environmental point of view. Ireland is fortunate in that it invested a number of years ago in the Irish national seabed survey, one of the largest mapping exercises in the world. Ireland therefore has significant data already at its disposal to make informed decisions. I am aware that there is urgency with regard to bringing forward the marine spatial planning legislation but, to move to the second point, namely whether we will be hampered if the legislation is not enacted, I have asked, certainly with the executive, that there be bilateral communication on how the legislation is crafted so there are no surprises. Ms Brien can comment on this. This kind of collaboration and co-operation, which we are mandated or required to do under MAPA, is such that we will work with other elements of government to ensure communication and transparency that result in optimised decision-making and informed decisions.

On the vulnerable marine ecosystems where no damage should be done, there is a significant amount of data. I have already dealt with fishers to leverage their expertise because they are competent individuals already working in the environment. Their innate knowledge is of great value to us. The offshore renewable energy, ORE, seafood group, which is already up and running, gives us a vehicle by which to get information from stakeholders who have been in the terrain for many decades and who can help inform some of the decisions we must make. At the end of the day, it goes back to the Government. It is important that the Government govern and that the ultimate decisions, reflecting the collective wisdom of key stakeholders, come to a point of truth and that recommendations be made concerning the awarding of consents if that is what is decided.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

With respect to the general scheme of the Marine Protected Areas Bill, has there been engagement with the Department already? Has MARA been involved at this stage? Obviously, we are waiting to see the general scheme.

Ms Laura Brien

We have had some initial discussions with the Department on the Bill, which is working its way through the process. What I would highlight concerns how we will be functioning in the short term. It really concerns the designated marine area plans, DMAPs. Those are to be established on foot of the marine protected areas legislation. The first DMAP for the south coast has been out for public discussion and feedback. This draft DMAP will go through the formal consultation process prior to being submitted to the Dáil for approval. That is really the conduit that exists today for making some of the trade-offs between designating a marine area for renewables and doing so for some other resource, whether it relates to fishing or protected areas. I am talking about avoiding special areas of conservation, for example. That process exists today, and that is where we will be taking our decision-making over the next short while. When the DMAP comes out, it will specify areas suitable for offshore renewable development, and those are the areas in respect of which we will be focusing on the issuing of marine area consents for the activity in question. It is quite a strong tool that we will be working with. The DMAP will be coming back to the Oireachtas for decision and approval within quarter one of next year.

An Cathaoirleach

That is the plan-led move. The phase 2 developments would be in designated areas.

That comes back before the Oireachtas - approval for those designated maritime area plan, DMAPs. Is that correct?

Ms Laura Brien

That is correct.

Deputy Emer Higgins

I thank our guests for being here today. Dr. Mellett has quite a CV. It really outlines his impressive experience in terms of the Naval Service, the Naval Service college and the Defence Forces. As important as that, his passion, experience and knowledge is really palpable. I thank him for bringing all of that to this role and to this really important office because it is really important we have someone who is eminently qualified because this is an extremely important new agency. It has been a long time in the making and is backed up by legislation. It offers huge potential for Ireland not only for planning, skills and technology improvements but also for monitoring, protection, drainage and all of the day to day stuff. It also offers us in Ireland the opportunity to become world leaders in offshore renewable energy. We have had many presentations at this committee about the impacts that would have from a climate and an economic perspective up and down our coastline.

The agency was established in July. I come from a corporate and change management background, so I am interested to hear how things are bedding in, what staffing levels are like at the moment, what the work plan is for the year ahead, and what the metrics will be. How will we be measuring the success or otherwise of the agency?

I have an off-topic question. In Dr. Mellett's presentation he spoke a little about how MARA could support delivery of the likes of drainage projects and I am curious to find out a little bit more about that and whether that would have potential when it comes to the likes of flood mitigation. I am conscious that homes in Wexford and are Cork currently under water after Storms Babet and Ciarán in the last number of weeks and those coastal areas are often worst affected.

My main question relates to the actual organisation but if Dr. Mellett has time, and I think there is five minutes left, I would like to learn more about the drainage situation.

Dr. Mark Mellett

I thank the Deputy. I have gotten absolute support from the Minister in terms of resourcing. The budget provided for this year, and Ms Brien can correct me, is approximately €7.5 million for 2024. Our headcount is approximately 25 at present but we have ambitions to grow to approximately 75, so far, so good. There will be challenges on some specialist skills but that is a matter for the executive. On the issue of the projects with regard to opportunities, we will the consenting authority for developments, as the Deputy said, whether it relates to drainage or other areas. Will Ms Brien take those two last questions?

Ms Laura Brien

In terms of our staffing, as Dr. Mellett said, we have a staff of approximately 25 people on site at the moment. Excluding myself, everyone else has come on secondment from a range of Government Departments over the last six to 18 months, basically to help us to get up and running form day one. That is very positive and we really welcome the commitment of the various staff who have joined us in this new start-up agency. We are starting our recruitment. We have various job ads out at the moment and we will continue to do that over the next six to 12 months. We hope to get up to around 55 staff by the end of Q1 of 2024. We are recruiting across everything, including in the corporate services area. We are also looking for people who will help us with the consenting process. We are looking at technical staff, including marine scientists and ecologists. We also need to beef up our experience and expertise in the areas of compliance and enforcement. We will be taking on some new compliance and enforcement roles that did not exist before, particularly around the offshore renewables piece. In regard to those projects being consented by An Bord Pleanála, we will be the enforcement arm for those. That is where we are on the staffing piece.

In terms of the drainage piece, we will mainly focus on working with Uisce Éireann. For example, if Uisce Éireann needs to put in place any sort of drainage pipes that drain into the sea, it will come to us for a marine area consent because effectively Uisce Éireann will be occupying the seabed for those outflow pipes. In regard to any of that physical infrastructure that hits the maritime area, we will be consenting. When we look at that, we will work closely with the relevant local authorities. However, the local authorities will be responsible for the development consents for those types of projects and we will look at the marine area consents and the right to occupy the seabed for any of those outflow pipes that come into the maritime area.

Deputy Emer Higgins

Is there work being done on the ORES?

Ms Laura Brien

Yes, we are in the process of developing that. We are looking at and trying to forecast the level of work that will be coming in to us. We are already quite busy in terms of receiving MAP applications and licences, so we started engagement with 24 different entities regarding to marine area consents and we have about 30 plus engagements with people regarding licence activities. On the licensing piece, we have taken over from the foreshore division of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. The marine area consents is an entirely new activity that we have taken on, on foot of the establishment and what was put into the Maritime Area Planning, MAP, Act 2021. In terms of the team that are there, yes, we are in the throes of 2024 planning at the moment. In terms of our priorities, we are working with Government policy with regard to supporting the offshore renewable energy, ORE, development piece, and around that we are maximising our capacity in other areas.

Dr. Mark Mellett

It perhaps goes back to a point made by Deputy Ó Broin, but the diverse nature of our board is such in terms of gender balance and skills and expertise means there is a good commercial and environmental NGO perspective there, and also an environmental academic perspective. I am very happy with the team on the board to bring that wisdom that will deliver in terms of the way we develop our work plan but also in taking into account that where trade-offs are needed, they will be done with that intellect at the appropriate level in terms of the structures.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Rebecca Moynihan has to be in the Seanad and Deputy O'Callaghan has to be in the Dáil. Do they both want to go together in this slot?

Senator Rebecca Moynihan

I am happy to do that. I will ask a couple of quick questions and then I have to go. Deputy Higgins asked about the staffing and the upskilling. The witnesses are taking on a huge job and an undertaking of 52 local authorities that have developed expertise over the last decades whereas the agency is doing it for a much bigger area in a short period of time. In terms of the gaps in skillsets, do the witnesses see any work they need to do with the Department with responsibility for higher education to potentially bring in and train new people in new areas of working and to develop new skillsets for that? Do the witnesses envisage any role, and this will come up from time to time, in conciliation and public engagement between potential developers of projects and coastal communities? Have the witnesses through that out? Is that a role the agency would take on?

As regards enforcement, the witnesses said the local authorities will do some elements of enforcement. Will there be a role for MARA in terms of even informal enforcement with developers? They are all the soft skills local authorities have that are not necessarily guided by the Acts but which they engage in and that stops things escalating at a very early stage. I will check the transcripts.

Dr. Mark Mellett

I thank the Senator for her questions. On the industry strategy, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Coveney's team will lead on that. There will be a significant push on the skills development side. This is for the industry in general in terms of meeting some of our ambitions. In the internal context, I am not aware of any major gap at present. On our risk committee, we had to seek an augmentee to bring in that audit competence. We are also getting good support form the Chief Solicitor's Office in terms of the legal gaps at present and that is future-proofed into 2024. I will leave the final piece to Ms Brien.

Ms Laura Brien

Within the skills piece, this is something that is very much of interest to the offshore renewables taskforce led by the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan. We are active participants on the skills sub-group in that. We are feeding into that in terms of the types of skills and expertise we are looking for. Certainly, it would be no surprise to say we have limited expertise within the country in certain areas.

This relates to marine planning and the ecology aspect. It is something we are looking at. We see ourselves as providing a good career path for people. Where people are coming straight out of college and might not have a lot of hands-on expertise, that is certainly an area in which we would be interested in recruiting to build up that expertise over time. We will have a very broad range of work for people to do, whether on the consenting side, whereby people will have to learn about what an appropriate assessment is and how to do it, or on the compliance and enforcement side, which is the flipside of the same coin in a way, whereby you have to be able to understand what is happening on the ground, whether it is appropriate and whether it is what somebody has been licensed or consented to do.

The second question the Senator asked related to compliance and enforcement. Where MARA will be looking at compliance and enforcement, it will first be about licences we have issued. Those licences will be issued with conditions and we will be responsible for carrying out any enforcement of conditions within those licences. We will also be responsible for enforcement, compliance and monitoring of any conditions that may exist in the marine area consents we have issued.

The third area relates specifically to projects and developments that have been through An Bord Pleanála for planning permission. An Bord Pleanála does not have an enforcement function, and we will take on that enforcement function from it. If, for example, there is an offshore renewable project that has gone through planning permission with An Bord Pleanála and it has put certain conditions on that planning approval, we will then be the responsible entity for ensuring enforcement of those planning conditions.

Dr. Mark Mellett

I might add that on the issue of leveraging where expertise may already exist, I am pleased the chief executive has led some engagement with industry. We have an agreement that we will have those regular engagements where there is a significant level of expertise and also with academic institutions in order that we will not be sitting in a silo, closed off to other perspectives. In future, there may be opportunities for public-private efforts in how we progress our work. At the end of the day, the decision is staying with the competent authority, on behalf of the Government. Collaboration is one of the key principles I have always adopted, along with innovation, and from a board perspective I will always encourage that. I often say, including in my previous job, that we need to learn the language of others. As an institution, MARA does not and will not have an ego. It will be completely engaged with other institutions, other marketplaces and the environmental community with a view to ensuring it has the best access to knowledge. If it needs to co-create solutions, it will do just that.

Deputy Cian O'Callaghan

On the enforcement point, local authorities have had huge challenges in respect of planning enforcement over the years. My experience, when I was a local authority member, was that it was probably more challenging than any other area, and I continue to see that. What can be done to ensure there will not be repeated significant challenges with planning enforcement? Is that something the witnesses are looking at and does it need additional consideration? Obviously, every area the authority has responsibility for brings challenges, but is this an area that requires extra attention?

Dr. Mark Mellett

The Deputy has identified one of the early items of work of the board, namely, an incorporeal meeting to establish authorised officers early on in our business, perhaps earlier than we expected. Nevertheless, we were able to turn around the decision within a few days, with the officers' positions established, and we have stood up that section. Ms Brien might wish to speak to this in more detail.

Ms Laura Brien

A regulator is only as strong as its ability to enforce its decisions, and that is step one. From our point of view, there are a couple of steps we are taking. We have identified compliance, enforcement and monitoring as a key senior management team position and we are recruiting somebody to head that up. This is a new area, probably one that was not a major focus under the previous Foreshore Act, but we definitely see it as one where MARA can really add value in the overall space in the sense of the ability to monitor what is happening and enforce specific conditions. I am not saying it is easy - we know it is a challenge - but we have put it as a priority, and finding someone to head up that section is certainly a priority recruitment for us. Their first job will be to look at the Marine Area Planning Act, see what our roles and responsibilities are and start to build out the team and the expertise to deliver that.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

I thank the witnesses. Dr. Mellett’s level of experience seems to be second to none and we are very lucky to have him chairing MARA. I have a number of questions, perhaps to educate myself a little. If I wanted to get permission for a wind farm, I would go to MARA first to assess the marine area where I wanted to put it and then seek planning. Is that correct?

Dr. Mark Mellett

Currently, we would need to have an ocean renewable energy site, ORES, allocation, that is, a system of DMAP proposals whereby the Government offers an opportunity for parties to bid after the granting of a specific grid connection to be developed. That would be after a process whereby the DMAP for the area has been decided on. If the applicant is successful, although that may not always be the case, it may then proceed to an application for a marine area consent. Ms Brien might speak to how it could change but that is currently the way it would be.

Ms Laura Brien

In general, a marine area consent is required before going for planning permission for anything, whether that is a port expansion, building a marina or building an offshore renewable plant. The marine area consent is really about the right to occupy a certain area of the maritime space. The main process is that people who are interested in carrying out any type of development come first to MARA for the MAC, and once they hold the MAC, they can progress through the planning process. For anything development related, they need to have a MAC before they go into planning.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

On the DMAPs that were mentioned, have a number of them already been established or are they being worked on?

Ms Laura Brien

The first one is being worked on at the moment and it is for the south coast, from Cork to Wexford. That item went out to public consultation and is now being refined, and the proposed DMAP will come back before the Oireachtas in the first quarter of next year. It will designate areas that are suitable for offshore renewable development. Subsequent to that, we will issue MACs only within the area that has been defined as part of that DMAP.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

There have been MACs before now, given there are wind farms, albeit done in a completely different manner.

Ms Laura Brien

Exactly. The first six MACs, for what are called the special projects or special MACs, were all for those six developments on the east coast, so they held MACs, but that was before the DMAP process was initiated.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

In the context of wind farms just in that part of the State, what is the relationship with the fisheries sector, or is there one? I assume it has its own spots to fish in or whatever. Is that all part of that DMAP strategy? I imagine fish move and do not all stay in the same space, or maybe they do. I am not sure how the movement of various currents affects that.

Dr. Mark Mellett

As I mentioned earlier, there is a seafood working group, which is the interface with fishers at present, and it is chaired by Mr. Richard McCabe. Its work is ongoing and it has been meeting over the past year. It is developing that institutional arrangement with fishers in order that there will be an understanding in the context of how we can move forward with communications. In the context of the DMAP side, obviously if there are sensitive habitats where there is spawning or there are other critical areas in the ecosystem that are vital for certain fisheries, it is unlikely that they will be designated for the development of offshore renewables.

The issue with regard to fishers is probably something that will have to be a part of that collective, moving forward, in the context of the final mapping out of DMAPs. I hope the offshore renewable energy seafood working group will reach that point of truth where principles are understood to ensure the sea area is designated in a manner that meets both requirements. The marine spatial planning Act will, in due course, provide another layer. There is complexity to integrated ocean management. In an ideal world, all the pieces of the jigsaw would move together. Deputy Ó Broin made the point that some of these pieces will have to move before we have a more holistic picture for marine spatial planning. Many of these pieces will be picked up as a whole in the future. Some of these pieces will initially come through the communications of the offshore renewable seafood working group.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

We have one map going and I assume there will be various maps. I am curious about how long it will take to map out the country. From my engagement with the wind industry here and elsewhere - I was at the wind trade show recently - the industry is desperately worried that we are so far behind. We are ten years or more behind where we should be. Other countries have gone well beyond where we are at. We do not even have one map yet. It sounds difficult. Is there a plan for the next 30 years? Will the whole country be mapped or will we have just started, if you know what I mean? There are quite a few companies that want to engage. We often see presentations and probably 100 different companies are interested. Many of them are Irish, which is great. Ms Brien said there has been some engagement with companies that are interested. From being involved around the edge of it, I know it is a huge industry that involves big toys. It is not small stuff. I assume the number of companies is limited. I am rambling a little. Those companies are dying to get started but we have not started yet. Is there a timeline? Once we get started, will it move quickly?

Dr. Mark Mellett

The Deputy makes a great point. It perhaps goes back to what I said in my opening statement about this nation being sea blind. We do not have a maritime culture institutionalised in the State. I often say it goes back to Article 6 of the treaty, which stated that until we have the wherewithal to provide our own coastal defence, it would be provided by his majesty's imperial forces and so the State set sail. We are here now and we have a remarkable framework for the management of actual and potential aggression, MAPA. The Maritime Area Regulatory Authority, MARA, has been established for only the past four months. Its desire to be progressive in bringing forward this initiative is palpable every time I meet its executive. The Government's framework includes 3 GW, which is already covered in phase 1. Another 5 GW will be included in phase 2, and 2 GW of that will be designated to green hydrogen. That will bring us to 7 GW. There is ambition for 2030. Thereafter, the future framework includes a further 30 GW. That is the vision from the Government.

The designation of areas for that production is something that certainly exercises me. I know that industry wants to see those developments. At the same time, we must be sure that due diligence is done in the process of designating areas for the sake of the stakeholders and so that our duty to provide a good environmental status is protected. We must ensure the optimal roadmap with a view to realising the ambition of 37 GW by 2050. There is not much time because of the pressure with regard to carbon. We need to be expeditious in our decisions. We are doing our best to do that.

I am conscious that the market is a little frustrated with the shift from an industry-led or developer-led approach to the plan-led approach. At the end of the day, however, the sovereign rights over the jurisdiction of the seabed belong to the citizens of the State. The Government acts on behalf of the citizens by allocating those sovereign rights to developers. There is only one way to do it, which is through a governmental plan-led approach. The institutions of the State are moving as quickly as possible to become integrated and deliver certainty. We are in a race with other jurisdictions, besides the need to offset our carbon. We need to try to hook the market to ensure it can see the long-term opportunities. I said in my opening remarks that there are hundreds of gigawatts of potential in our jurisdiction. If we look at population maps, we can see where the centres of rich populations are globally. In the northern hemisphere, there is only one jurisdiction that is adjacent to a wind resource that is greater than 10 m/s. That is off the Irish coast. There are other jurisdictions with plenty of energy, such as the top of the Himalayas, in the very deep water to the east of Japan and on the west coast of Canada, where the population is low. The prize is there for this State if it is to succeed. We are certainly not going to be found wanting in terms of leadership. We will work with other State bodies to ensure we meet the requirement of the Government.

Deputy Francis Noel Duffy

I rarely speak for this long. I have another question that is combined with the last one. It is on a similar point. I taught in a school of architecture. I talked about energy and the fact that we were importing €6 billion worth of energy when we have the capacity to export it. It is phenomenal that in a generation or two, we could be doing very well as a country by exporting energy. As a State, our budget is about €90 billion and a lot of that goes on wages. It also goes to education, health and all the rest of it. We do not have an enormous surplus to assist in investing in ourselves. That is sad, in a way. We will have to depend, I assume, on a considerable amount of money coming from outside. It is not a cheap industry. We will be prospecting. Perhaps that is more of a statement. Perhaps there is funding. Perhaps there is EU funding or world funding to assist us to push forward quicker, at least with regard to the infrastructure.

It is good that Dr. Mellett is here. Are we going to need a serious naval force, going forward, to protect our asset? The fishermen have been chasing off the Russians. Do we have to begin to think about that? If we have a lot of hardware floating around on the sea, will we need to protect it?

Dr. Mark Mellett

I will deal with the Deputy's first point. This is going to cost money and requires investment. That will come from various sources. Some resources will come from the State. Some will come from institutions in the EU. Some will come from developers themselves. I would say that our objective should be based around the electrification of the grid as soon as possible. Rather than exporting electrons, we should consider adding value through green hydrogen. In the future, when the technology has completely matured, we will also have carbon capture to add carbon molecules to that green hydrogen to make e-fuels. The airline industry in this country alone would consume approximately 7 GW of renewable energy in the form of e-fuels or sustainable aviation fuel. That is before we export one molecule or one electron. The case would be similar in the maritime sector when we consider shipping and transport. That is where the opportunity beyond just electrification is there for the national economy. It is a significant opportunity.

The Deputy asked about investment and the responsibility and obligation on the State. We invested 25% of our GDP in Ardnacrusha during a very challenging period. We should not miss the opportunity we have to ensure this is primed to the advantage of the State. That is not just because of industry but also because of the penalty of climate change.

As I said in my opening remarks, sovereign rights that are not upheld are more imaginary than real. We have a massive jurisdiction of almost 900,000 sq. km which translates to the property rights of the citizens. There is an absolute obligation on the State with regard to upholding those sovereign rights. In terms of our function and duty under MAPA to collaborate with other State bodies, we will be doing that and advocating, where necessary, to ensure the necessary security architecture is there.

He can be sure developers will look at the requirements in terms of critical infrastructure costing not millions of euro, but billions, and perhaps even more.

An Cathaoirleach

I will take my round of questions now. I attended the Wind Energy Ireland conference where 17 July was announced as the date MARA was to be established. There was a palpable sense in that room of progress being made in harnessing our offshore potential. The year before at that conference they spoke about advances because we had brought in the Marine Area Planning Act. The offshore renewable electricity support scheme, ORESS, had been successful. It had come in at a price per MWh that surprised some people. It was slightly lower than people thought it would be, which was good for us. There was also the establishment of MARA. However, there is a lot more to our ocean area than offshore renewable energy. That is obviously the thing we focus on at the moment because of the high cost of energy as a result of the war in Ukraine. There is also a lot of talk about the requirement for energy self-sufficiency and of climate action. There are a lot of other incomes derived from the sea area. There are a lot of careers made at sea and businesses depending on the sea. Coastal communities rely on the sea for both recreation and tourism. There are also our fishermen. I always think it important to point out that what we are doing in the offshore is not just about the offshore renewable industry. It is a comprehensive, arms around our sea approach, to say we are aware of conflicting and complementary activities out there.

Does MARA have any engagement role with the fishing and coastal communities? There is also the community fund that will accrue from offshore renewable development. Does MARA have any role in those? If it does not, that is fine. I am just trying to build up my body of knowledge. As Deputy Duffy has said, this is a new and exciting time for us. We have a planning Act for the sea and an agency overseeing regulation of that.

Dr. Mark Mellett

We have been discussing the community benefit fund, and Ms Brien may speak more to that. It does not sit within our competence at this moment. In the context of the fishers, like any other stakeholder, we have to be sensitive to that community. It has decades of experience in the jurisdiction. It is not the only community. In the context of our maritime area, there are other stakeholders such as shipping and transport. There are other silent communities, which we also need to remember. That is the rich biodiversity that exists as part of the carbon sink. If we look back to the human relationship with the ocean, and this goes beyond Ireland, we have not been very understanding. The 140 kt nuclear tests in the 1940s and beyond were an abhorrent use of the ocean as a sink for testing explosions. We have seen it with the spills in the Caribbean Sea and with the Exxon Valdez oil spill. We see it today with the massive garbage patches in almost every ocean, which are continuing to the point where some suggest there will be more plastic than fish in the ocean by 2050. Our broad perspective in dealing with the offshore renewable energy opportunities is that it is one segment, which is a priority, but not the only priority. The important thing is getting the right things in the right order so we can progress and deliver good environmental status while, at the same time, dealing with some of our pressing requirements for energy that does not pollute with carbon. My perspective on the relationship with fishers is dependent on the outcomes of the seafood/ORE working group and to see what comes out of that. I remain in touch with the chair of that group, Robert McCabe, on a regular basis.

Ms Laura Brien

As Dr. Mellett has said, we are one of the groups that the offshore renewable fisheries task force consults with on various issues. We are plugged into that engagement and will continue to be. We have had good engagement to date with the coastal local authorities and the County and City Management Association, CCMA, because of the change in the Marine Area Planning Act and new rights and obligations on the local government side concerning that. We have had various engagements facilitated through the Office of the Planning Regulator to make sure all of our processes are aligned and we understand what everybody is doing. It is not just renewable energy; it is also leisure and tourism facilities and developments. Those are also important to coastal communities. We certainly do not just view ourselves as being here for offshore renewable energy. We are here to make sure we are making the best use of our maritime resources across everything. From the coastal planning authority's bit, we have an engagement with Uisce Éireann. They care about the development of sewage treatment plants within their communities, which is important for them from a clean water perspective. We obviously look at that too in terms of facilitating marine area consents for Uisce Éireann. There is a lot of that broader development on which we are engaging with the various stakeholders.

To date the community benefit fund has been tied to the offshore renewable energy support scheme. The successful bidders in the first ORESS auction have obligations to support a certain level of community benefit. That is monitored through the role of the SEAI. We see the importance of that community benefit fund as being tied to all maritime area consents, MACs, as opposed to just ORESS. That would be a little more consistent with how other countries have done this. Where other countries have separated the lease of the seabed from support schemes, they have put that community obligation and community benefit fund on the lease aspect. That would be the parallel with our MAC. In our statement of strategy going forward we would be putting that obligation on the MAC side rather than just one particular aspect of the usage, which is through the report scheme as it is today.

An Cathaoirleach

One aspect of a MAC is that you assess the technical and financial capabilities of an applicant. Will the applicant's ability to set up that community fund become part of that MAC process and assessment?

Ms Laura Brien

I will put it a little stronger. It might be an obligation, rather than an assessment of their abilities. With regard to ORESS, that is an obligation on them. The successful bidders through the support scheme have an obligation to put a certain amount into a community benefit fund. Not every MAC holder will move through a support scheme process, as happened with the phase ones.

An Cathaoirleach

Is that because they may not proceed any further in the system, or even obtain planning?

Ms Laura Brien

They might also find another route to market.

Sitting suspended at 4.19 p.m. and resumed at 4.27 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

We will resume. I apologise to our witnesses for that interruption. It is quite a busy day in the Houses today. I do not know if that is a good day or a bad day to be before a committee. I suppose it depends on what the witnesses are trying to answer.

We were discussing the community fund. For the record, and I am aware that people will be looking in, the Maritime Area Planning Act was complex and fairly substantial legislation to get through. I believe it was back in December 2021 when we did that. I want to clarify the difference between a MAC, which is an occupancy consent, versus a development consent. I believe that some people get those things confused. It would be helpful for the record if we were to try to explain the difference between the two.

Dr. Mark Mellett

MAC gives one an opportunity to stake a claim but one then must articulate that into a development proposal, which then comes into An Bord Pleanála. Perhaps Ms Brien will address how this comes forward.

Ms Laura Brien

A MAC is a right to occupy a portion of the sea bed. It is a precursor to going into planning. For strategic infrastructure - they may have renamed that now - or for any planning that needs to go to An Bord Pleanála, one needs a MAC first. The same does apply if one is looking at something that needs a development consent from a local authority. If, for example, it is to build a new slipway, to build out a marina for leisure tourism and so on, or for some smaller harbour development, this will go to the local authority for development consent, so planning permission.

An Cathaoirleach

Is a MAC required for that also?

Ms Laura Brien

Yes if one is putting any permanent structures below the high-water mark, within the maritime area. If it is a slipway, then yes. Some things are a bit more ambiguous. For example, if it was to put a boardwalk along the beach it would really depend on whether it was above or below the high-water level. Let us assume that it is below the high-water level for some aspect of the construction then one would need a maritime area consent, MAC, before going to planning.

It is one of the pieces of paperwork needed before requesting planning permission.

An Cathaoirleach

There is an obligation to grant a MAC within 90 days. Has the authority hit that target so far for all MAC applications?

Ms Laura Brien

We currently have two active MAC applications. We have not yet passed the 90 days for those. We are working through them and are confident that we will be close to the 90 days. As I said, these are our first two MAC applications coming through. We definitely want to get it right because we know that it will set a precedent for the others. As of today, we are on track to meet the standard.

An Cathaoirleach

That is good. Earlier, we touched on marine security for energy installations when Deputy Duffy raised the issue. Many turbines will be located at sea, but we will also have interconnector cables, substations and control equipment for switching them in and out, balancing loads, etc. I recall raising this issue when we debated the Maritime Jurisdiction Act. The Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Coveney, was the Minister for Foreign Affairs at the time. Will maritime security be provided by means of a partnership arrangement? To some extent, these will be private investments. Why should the Naval Service be the protection force in that instance? Obviously, maritime security is very important for our national energy and export business. How do we foresee that playing out?

Dr. Mark Mellett

The Chair has raised a very important point. The issue of maritime security is something that will require close collaboration in terms not just of MARA but also other parts of the State. While this is infrastructure that may well be linked to private developers, it is critical to the State for a number of reasons. First, it may well drive our industry in the context of what is happing on land side. Second, as I have always said, State security is inextricably linked to economic security. If you do not protect the enablers of economics, then you are in the space of having a vulnerability.

I attended the North Sea summit in Belgium not so long ago with the Taoiseach and the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Ryan. It was quite clear that for every state represented, security for this type of infrastructure was top of the agenda. It is a question that we must get our heads around. As I said, there is the issue of upholding sovereignty. If we are going to enjoy a dividend of the sovereign rights that have been gifted to the State, then we are obliged to uphold those. We will need to further examine how that is done. In most jurisdictions, defence forces have a role in terms of being the symbols of the sovereignty of a state. Ultimately, that is what the flag on a ship is, namely, a sovereign instrument of the state to exercise its authority where there is critical infrastructure. Even though there is significant private investment in some of these developments, there is an obligation on the Irish State to uphold the security of that critical infrastructure because of what hangs off it.

An Cathaoirleach

Dr. Mellett is right. We are in the formative days of this process. Previously, we were not able to do anything outside the 12-mile limit, so this is new. During the debate on the Maritime Area Planning Act, we spoke about a register of occupancy and activities in the sea. I cannot remember the exact name of the register. Is that something that MARA will manage because it will be the first port of call?

Dr. Mark Mellett

Mr. O'Leary will answer take that.

Mr. Rory O'Leary

The Cathaoirleach might be referring to the maritime authorisation database.

An Cathaoirleach

That could well be it, yes.

Mr. Rory O'Leary

At the moment, that competence is still with the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage. In due course, there may be an intent that it will be transferred to MARA when we have the resources, etc., to take it on. It is something for the future. It would make sense that MARA would be the custodian of that in due course.

An Cathaoirleach

That would be helpful. More things will happen in the area. A centralised database would help track what will be complex developments and applications. Does a MAC expire at some point when a development has commenced? Does the MAC remain as a live consent for a site for the duration?

Mr. Rory O'Leary

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Does that include the decommissioning and removal stages?

Mr. Rory O'Leary

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

I was not aware of that. Where a MAC grants an occupancy right, consideration must be given to who can go in at certain times. When a MAC is applied for and granted, there may be no development taking place on the site and, then, as the development continues and reaches operational stage, there are probably different levels of access to the site that need to be maintained. Does MARA play a role in that or does it come under the development consent process?

Ms Laura Brien

In general, it would be under the development consent process. When someone applies for development consent, part of the application will cover how the construction is going to be carried out, what method will be used, etc. Part of it will also involve indicating which ports ships will be entering and leaving, the routes involved and so on. That will come under development consent, but there will be other agencies involved. Again, we have talked about co-ordination with other regulators. For example, there will be certain navigational information obligations put on the development as well. The Commissioners of Irish Lights will be responsible for ensuring compliance with navigational aids that are put in. For example, around a wind farm, boundaries would have to be put in place regarding the area in which there will be navigational aids. Other agencies will monitor compliance with that. Access to the site will probably be provided as part of the development consent application.

An Cathaoirleach

I had forgotten about the Commissioners of Irish Lights. They obviously have a role to play. Would it make sense to ensure their roles come under the remit of MARA? Has that aspect been discussed?

Ms Laura Brien

No.

An Cathaoirleach

Would it make sense to ensure that all activities at sea come under the remit of MARA, including aquaculture licensing? The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is currently responsible for granting aquaculture licences.

Dr. Mark Mellett

Definitely.

An Cathaoirleach

It would make sense to set up an agency with this skills base and legislative backing and eventually have it as the overall management and regulatory authority for the maritime area.

Dr. Mark Mellett

Ultimately, these are policy decisions. While MARA will not be shy about its ambition, our priority is to get the ship moving in terms of our current competencies. The Cathaoirleach is absolutely right. In fact, the Act encourages that. Where we reach a point where we can start offering advice that might inform the formulation of policy, we will do that. I agree with the Cathaoirleach that a Rolls-Royce model would be an integrated system that would have all the elements in one clearing house. That would allow us to overcome the dangers posed by silos and activities or issues falling in between.

An Cathaoirleach

Earlier, we talked about data collection. Previous surveys were mentioned. The offshore renewable industry has comprehensive, environmental information collection systems. The National Parks and Wildlife Service is doing something probably on coastal special areas of conservation and special protection areas. It also observes the collection of data.

I do not know if this comes under MARA's remit - if all that data is being collected, is anybody setting out that the data sets used should be in some way interoperable so that we can collect all that data and use it and that we do not have a data set collected in one form that cannot be merged with another? Is that being worked on? Is it something that will fall under MARA?

Dr. Mark Mellett

It is a question with which I am struggling because there are diverse data sets. The State expended significantly on the Irish national seabed survey. The follow-on in INFOMAR, led by the Marine Institute in Geological Survey of Ireland, is another significant data set. When you look at the data sets required to inform decisions required in designation, there is additionality in some cases. That is part of the designated maritime area plan, DMAP, process to get an additionality in data. I noticed, as part of the DMAP process, a request to data custodians, public or private, to make those data sets available to the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, I think. I think the Cathaoirleach made a key point that there needs to be a centralised repository of data relating to the marine. That will ultimately inform better decision-making for the State and utilisation of the resource. I take his point. Right now, we are not arresting that as MARA's function but in due course we will look actively at the issue. Ms Brien may wish to comment.

Ms Laura Brien

I concur. It is an area in which more central co-ordination will bring significant added value across a range of stakeholders who use the maritime space. How this first DMAP process works out will be interesting. I hope we will learn a lot from it, such as what data was required, useful and generally available, for the next DMAP process. For example, we are now looking at the west coast because that is the next area where key resources are available for offshore renewable. We can learn from the DMAP on the south coast about data collection, what is available and best practice. We see MARA playing a role in that. We are not yet active in that space. It is early days but it is an area in which we will see that open access to data is key to derisk projects and better inform all stakeholders interested in what is happening in the maritime area.

An Cathaoirleach

I agree. The collection of data should be in the ownership of the State. If a developer is going for planning, it will have a load of data it collects to produce an environmental impact report but one may not have access to that data. It is important that the raw data stays with the State. There are other agencies that could use it such as the National Parks and Wildlife Service or others but only if there is standardisation across the collection of that data.

We spoke earlier about enforcement. MARA's role will be in enforcement, which is a bit down the line because we are in the early days of the consent process. I think Deputy O'Callaghan made the point that if there is non-compliance with planning or another condition of a licence, etc., on land, you are often able to observe it because somebody walks by it, lives close to it or hears, smells or sees it. Way out at sea, that will be more difficult. There is a limit to how much you can go beyond your conditions anyway, if you are developing something. I wonder about observance of compliance with planning permissions, conditions and licences. The enforcement in the nearshore will be done by the local authority. Is that right? Yes. It is only for offshore that MARA will be responsible for enforcement.

Ms Laura Brien

MARA will only be responsible for enforcement of development consents in the offshore space. In the nearshore, which is out to 3 nautical miles, that will be local authorities. However, if, for example, a maritime area consent, MAC, has been awarded, we will be responsible for compliance with any conditions on the MAC. There may be a condition in the MAC, for example, in phase one, you had to apply for planning permission within a certain time. If not, we have the right to take back the MAC. We will do certain compliance activities around licences and MACs we have issued that cover everything. When it comes to development consent, local authorities will do the nearshore out to 3 nautical miles and we will be responsible for the area beyond that.

An Cathaoirleach

I think it was raised by Wind Energy Ireland that you have to have obtained planning permission and you lose your MAC if you lose your planning permission. There may be a situation in which the loss of planning permission was beyond its control, such as a judicial review. It raised that point with us. It needs to be considered. In fact, I do not know if it was addressed in the legislation recently. Does it still stand that if you are not successful in planning, you lose your MAC?

Mr. Rory O'Leary

Yes. It is a condition of the special MACs, a subject of planning. The corollary to that is the right to occupy is contingent on adhering to the conditions of the consent, which is that you get development permission. The intent is not to have these areas locked down that could be developed further. That is why there are those hard stop milestones in respect of that. It is right through the end of the planning process in that sense. If planning permission is ultimately refused, then the MAC can be terminated at that point but it would not happen prior to that.

An Cathaoirleach: We are at thge early atges of this. Compared to many the world at the moment, we are way behind. The fgirst offshore wind turbines went down in Arklow, I do not know when it was, 2003 or something like that. It is a long time ago. 2009 maynbe. We have a lot of cathign up to do. Mr. Mellett just said it fromt he outset that we have proibably one of the best wind potentials in Europe. We do not let, the expression.... do not let perection be the enemy oif the good. We really need to do this. We ened to be consdierate of that very fragile marine environmenta

An Cathaoirleach

We are at the early stages of this. Compared to a lot of the world, we are way behind. The first offshore wind turbines went down in Arklow in 2003 or something like that. It was a long time ago. Perhaps it was 2009. We have a lot of catching up to do. Dr. Mellett said at the outset that we probably have one of the best wind potentials in Europe. We should not let perfection be the enemy of the good, as the saying goes. We really need to do this. We must be considerate of the fragile marine environment we have. He will put his background and his PhD in environmental governance and the marine environment to good use in his position. We need to be aware of it. I thank him and wish him luck. The next 30 years of our journey to decarbonisation and energy independence are dependent on the different agencies working together.

Dr. Mark Mellett

We have two clarifying points for the previous speaker. We will clarify them for the record. I ask Mr. O'Leary to take them.

Mr. Rory O'Leary

Senator Moynihan asked about public engagement and the role of MARA therein. We see that as really important in forums like this and communicating to the public at large about the role of MARA in order to raise awareness. We are doing it through coastal local authorities. We will look at that as part of our strategy to ensure people of the State know what MARA is. It is a new agency and it is important that people understand our role. It is on us to ensure we communicate effectively in that respect. We are willing to engage with coastal communities. That is to address Senator Moynihan's question.

An Cathaoirleach

Was there a second clarification?

Dr. Mark Mellett

No, there was a question about dispute resolution but I do not think it is necessary to deal with that. It is done through the institutions in An Bord Pleanála.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Boyhan was busy in the Seanad. I invite him to speak now.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I thank Dr. Mellett, Ms Brien and Mr. O'Leary. I apologise, I had to chair in the Seanad so I am only coming in now. I am conscious that this is MARA's first presentation to us. Dr. Mellett set out clearly his vast experience. There are not too many vice admirals heading up coastal strategic organisations like MARA. Clearly, he has unique insight and experience. He set out his skill set very well in his paper. I love the confidence but I would not expect any less from an admiral. His visionary leadership, proven track record and inspiring, motivating delivery are all very positive. I genuinely wish him well.

I live in Dún Laoghaire and I was a member of its harbour company for two or three terms. I fully understand, therefore, the issues regarding the complexities of development in this context. What a wonderful harbour we have in Dún Laoghaire. What a wonderful coast we have all around this country. To touch on a few issues, local planning authorities, and especially the coastal planning authorities, are very important. The Office of the Planning Regulator, with which I am sure MARA has or will have close links, carried out several information sessions with councillors concerning planning.

Regarding the coastal local authorities, specifically, I think there are major issues in this regard. Clearly, the members of local authorities are elected. They represent their communities. In terms of subsidiarity, they are the people on the ground. I suggest, therefore, that MARA might network through their representative bodies in the form of the Association of Irish Local Government, AILG, and the Local Authority Members Association, LAMA. I say this because those organisations have formal conferences, where they seek speakers on key policy aspects. It is a formal rather than an informal process. It is also not tied to a particular local authority. Two conferences are run by those organisations every year and I think Dr. Mellett and MARA would find in them a venue and a space to set out information. I suggest an endeavour of that type because this is a learning curve, a significant one, for us all.

This committee has obviously been very much involved in maritime area regulation and the issues encountered in this regard. MARA will clearly have a key role in streamlining the consent process. I still cannot get my head around it. I will be honest about that. This is important, though. MARA's responsibilities include the granting of marine licences for specific activities, compliance and enforcement. These are going to be enormous tasks. I refer as well to the resources needed in this regard. Undertaking this work in the areas of compliance, enforcement, the issuing of licences, undertaking investigations, mounting prosecutions and the overall administration are all major and daunting tasks. This is particularly the case given it has been unregulated.

There has been resistance to developments in this area, but I genuinely think people are changing. I refer to the huge potential for offshore renewable energy. A few years ago, there was no question of talking about this area. I can think of six projects along the east coast, from Drogheda out to Wicklow, against which mass public meetings were held, but this occurred at a time when there was a background of uncertainty. No one really quite knew or understood the benefits of renewables. The greatest focus now is on the cost, the spondulicks, of energy. Things are now different because of this focus.

I genuinely wish Dr. Mellett well in his new role. It is early days yet, but is he confident that he has the resources, the skill sets, the people and the finances in place to fully roll out the functions of MARA as envisaged under the legislation approved by the Oireachtas? Ultimately, we are talking about legislation that we put through these Houses and that was debated by this committee. There was a lot of resistance. Amendments were proposed to it. At the end of the day, however, it has been passed as legislation. I am very conscious, especially in the context of the Opposition in the Oireachtas, that we need to keep the pressure on if MARA does not have the resources. This is important. There is no point in limping on and then three years later telling us it was not possible to deliver because the organisation did not have the resources.

Everything comes back to resources and skill sets. Clearly, a vast number of different skill sets may need to be contracted in or utilised as part of a synergy with other entities. We do not need to be building layers and layers. The resource aspect is the core of my question. I genuinely wish Dr. Mellett and his team well. I have observed him for a long time and seen him operating. I think he is the right man in the job. He has the motivation, and he clearly also has the energy and determination required. Importantly, he has the knowledge of the sea and all that goes with that. I wish him the best of luck with his new role and I just hope the requisite resources are available to roll out what we envisaged in the Oireachtas when we passed this legislation.

Dr. Mark Mellett

I thank the Senator for his remarks. I confirm that I have the commitment from the Minister that the resources are being made available. This is the reality in terms of our authority to recruit to a headcount of 74. We are at 25 now. I refer as well to the provision of a budget for our first year in terms of 2024.

I agree with the Senator as well concerning his point regarding local authorities. They have a key role to play here and now have a competence out to 3 nautical miles. I have worked with local authorities in trying to develop this vision. The Northern and Western Regional Assembly has a marine spatial plan. Mayo County Council has developed its own maritime strategy in the context of the opportunity here. The county has taken on board what it will have as a competence in respect of creating designated maritime area plans, DMAPs, and its other requirements for its area. I hope this would be a flagship strategy that could be replicated by other local authorities. The key word is, and the Senator articulated this aspect with passion, "leadership". This is not just a matter for central government. Subsidiarity is the key principle. If we can devolve decision-making to the lowest possible level, I think the efficacy that will result in terms of development, and development complementary to good environmental status, will be closer to perfect. I encourage all elected representatives and any individuals holding office to use their posts to ensure this issue is not left to be a problem for somebody else to deal with.

I see that we will all need to be offering encouragement, in the context of phase 1, to get these projects progressed. I also believe that there will be a biodiversity net gain in association with these developments. This must be recognised. I would like to see this articulated as being a win-win endeavour, not just in terms of the development of renewable energy but also in respect of a recognition that the environment will be better as a consequence of this type of development. This is a leadership responsibility. It will be necessary because I am certain there will be certain naysayers who will push against this development in the context of nimbyism and short-termism. We just do not have the time for this. I would, therefore, like to see this fire lit in local authorities throughout the country because they are key elements of the governance system. It is likewise with civil society. It must be ensured that people and organisations in that context have the information necessary to allow them to get behind these projects, which are not just good for their generation but for the generations to come.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I will make three further points. What Dr. Mellett is saying about having a good environmental status is good, encouraging and positive. It was also great to hear what Dr. Mellett touched on regarding there being a biodiversity net gain because this is music to everyone's ears. It is sometimes about something so simple as this in respect of how to get things across to people. I refer to there being a "biodiversity net gain". Messages must all be kept pretty simple so people can understand them. Again, this is a real, positive takeaway. In wrapping up, I ask Dr. Mellett to confirm what the provision for MARA's 2024 budget is.

Dr. Mark Mellett

It is €7.4 million.

Ms Laura Brien

It is €7.3 million.

Dr. Mark Mellett

I am sorry, it is €7.3 million.

Senator Victor Boyhan

That is all the funding allocated to run the entire MARA organisation next year.

Ms Laura Brien

Yes.

Senator Victor Boyhan

How many administrative staff does MARA have now? Does it have a large staff? I understand the organisation is based in Wexford.

Ms Laura Brien

That is correct. We are based in Wexford. We have a staff of 25 people now, with a plan to get to 74. This will probably take us about a year. We hope to be up to around 50 or 55 by the end of the first quarter of 2024. We are actively recruiting. I recognise the validity of everything the Senator said around staffing and skills. A regulator is only as strong as its people. We are a collection of people and it is our skills, abilities and expertise that will drive success.

From my perspective as chief executive, my number one priority now is recruitment. I refer to getting good, experienced staff in the door who will deliver on the mandate of MARA. This is not an easy job to do. Public sector recruitment is a challenge across all areas and not just in this space. At the same time, however, we recognise we are competing with the likes of An Bord Pleanála and the local authorities, who are also interested in recruiting the same mix of people and skill sets as we are. We are, therefore, actively out there recruiting. We want MARA to be known as an attractive employer and a good place to work, where people can do interesting, challenging and meaningful work that will deliver good outcomes for a broad suite of society. This is really what we want to achieve.

Senator Victor Boyhan

To return to the budget of €7.3 million-----

Ms Laura Brien

Yes.

Senator Victor Boyhan

-----what were MARA's initial projections and budget request? What did it initially pitch for to run the organisation in 2024?

Ms Laura Brien

I think our initial request was just marginally higher than this €7.3 million. Approximately 50% of our funding is for pay-related costs and about 50% for other outlays.

Senator Victor Boyhan

Can Ms Brien give me a figure?

Ms Laura Brien

I think it was €7.8 million.

Senator Victor Boyhan

So it is not even €1 million more. Was MARA ultimately happy with this figure of €7.3 million that it would have the confidence to do what it has to do? We might consider €7.3 million to be a lot of money but it is a mammoth undertaking. There are also initial set-up costs for MARA that it may never have again. It is not a huge body in the great grand scheme of what the Government and the Oireachtas has empowered MARA to do with the legislation.

Ms Laura Brien

Correct.

Senator Victor Boyhan

It strikes me as modest but MARA is telling us that it can deliver its plan for 2024 at €7.3 million.

Ms Laura Brien

Given where we are today, we need to ramp up our activities across a range of different functions that we will carry out. The plan or the budget that we put together was based on an assumption that it takes time to recruit. We are out there and we are actively recruiting. We will build up staff over time. We need to be fussy about the people we recruit. We need to make sure that we are getting the right people with the right skills in the door. That is not going to happen overnight. We will be building up our activities. We are in the process of doing a more detailed budget exercise now internally. If the answer to that comes out to be different, we will be back into the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage to say that we need more money. We will not be shy about that. At this point in time, we must look at our planning based on our best estimates of what we will be doing and on which activities we have the capacity to absorb.

Senator Victor Boyhan

I thank Ms Brien. I wish her well.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Senator. On that note, the committee will deal with the departmental Estimates, probably in the next month or two.

I have no doubt that members would want me to let MARA know that it has the full support of the committee. We recognise how important the work is that it does. I have no doubt this will be brought up at the Estimates.

I thank Dr. Mellett, Ms Brien and Mr. O'Leary for their time today. I wish them the best of luck.

Dr. Mark Mellett

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for the invitation to the committee.

An Cathaoirleach

The committee is always interested. We get regular updates from agencies that we deal with from time to time. If there was a quarterly or six-monthly update from MARA, the committee would be interested in receiving that information.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.03 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 15 November 2023.