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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, ENTERPRISE AND INNOVATION debate -
Wednesday, 11 Jul 2012

Legislating for a World-Class Workplace Relations Service: Discussion

It is proposed that we defer the items to be discussed in private session until after our discussion with the Minister on the workplace relations legislation. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I welcome the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, and his officials to discuss the proposed workplace relations legislation. The committee is grateful to the Minister for sending the background documents to the committee for consideration. These will have appeared in members' in-boxes in recent days. They pertain to legislating for a world-class workplace relations service and responses to the blueprint consultation. The committee welcomes the opportunity to discuss the documents with the Minister and to have an input into preparing the heads of the proposed workplace relations legislation. I invite the Minister to make his presentation. On its conclusion, we will have time for questions.

I spent most of my political life in opposition and, therefore, welcome the opportunity to attend a meeting of the committee at this stage of the process. Conventionally, legislation appears before the Oireachtas only when much of it is cemented into place, at which time there are not enough moving parts for the Oireachtas to influence. It is very important that we seek progress in this regard.

A number of members will be familiar with the consultative process to date. It has been very much in the public domain and worthwhile. I am sure today's exchange will be worthwhile also. It will not in any way neutralise the right of the Oireachtas to make changes during the more formal legislative process on Committee Stage.

Everybody knows that a well-functioning employment rights and industrial relations system is critical. It is a source of competitive advantage and serves as a way of ensuring a level playing field for employers who seek to be compliant and treat their workers fairly. Bearing in mind the concept of competitive advantage in respect of the long-term future of nations, one realises the system is built around people and the manner in which they are treated, respected and valued, in addition to the manner in which they engage in the workplace. The employment rights and industrial relations functions are really valuable tools. We ought to value the experience that has been gained and ensure that we promote compliance. We should ensure that compliance with obligations becomes the natural default option rather than non-compliance. Enforcement and all that goes with it should be a feature.

When I began to examine the system, I concluded it was not working as desired. It was not well understood. Neither workers nor employers understood their obligations and rights exactly. The system for the resolution of disputes was extremely complex, cumbersome and legalistic. It was completely foreign to what its authors originally desired, namely, a system in which people could resolve issues quickly and informally. We did not and do not have proper and effective enforcement. Orders against the non-compliant ought to be enforced and enforceable.

It was not I who discovered the background to this subject; the truth is that people knew the system was dysfunctional. There have been eight reports over recent years complaining about defects in the system. We resolved to address this and seek to achieve best practice, as recognised globally. There are five organisations whose functions have very often overlapped. It was very difficult to understand one's rights. Claims are often referred to the wrong forum and are discovered too late, that is, when the time for making a claim has expired and one's case is statute-barred. There have been cases in which the same incident resulted in claims being made in different forums. Employers often did not know a claim was made for months after it had been filed. Thus, there was no opportunity for correcting an unintentional fault. The system ran headlong towards legalistic processes and hearings, which are clearly not desirable. There were often inexplicable differences in the way compensation was decided and different routes of appeal. Very long delays were typical and, as I stated, enforcement measures were poor. From a taxpayer's point of view, the system was not good value for money, bearing in mind that we are all trying to make do with fewer resources. The amount of duplication and overlapping did not result in good value for money.

There is a consensus that reform is required. If one considers the consultation we have had, one will be struck by that consensus. There may be some issues on which opinions differ, but the direction being taken has received a broad welcome.

A great deal has been achieved in terms of delivering improvements in the past 12 months, which is a tribute to the officials who are present as well as to the wider family of agencies. Whereas we used to have 30 forms for 100 different forms of complaint, we now have one. We have a single point of contact, the workplace relations customer services. Complaints are acknowledged within five working days, which means that employers do not need to wait weeks or months before learning about situations. There are no backlogs for rights commissioners' services, whereas it used to be as much as 16 weeks. Once statutory notice periods have expired, those services can be provided on demand. We also have a single website and are piloting an early resolution service so that issues can be resolved without proceeding to adjudication. This service will work well. It builds on the work of the Equality Tribunal, which has successfully run a mediation service. We can be confident that the principle of early resolution will work well.

We have received 67 responses to our consultation on the blueprint. Many of these are positive, although we can revert on specific issues. For example, there has been a difference of opinion in respect of the registrar's role, but much of it is based on misunderstandings. The registrar will weed out cases in which there is no case in law - that is, something that would flop if it went to a hearing. There is no point in letting such cases go through the process and incur costs on all sides just to fall at the last hurdle. It is a question of ensuring that cases are robust, forms are properly completed and so on.

There is a question about whether issues of first instance should be in private or in public. We recommend that they be in private. This meets the needs of workers and employers. People in these situations do not want a great deal of publicity. Instead, they want their rights vindicated in a reasonable, discreet and private way. If an issue goes to appeal, those involved will have a right to have it heard in public. We are making provision in this regard and will respect the rules on human rights that obtain.

An issue was raised about whether there should be service charges. We considered a charge, but we have since withdrawn that recommendation. However, we envisage retaining the power to levy charges in a particular instance, that is, when someone makes an appeal after refusing to participate in the first-instance resolution. We are providing for a quick and easy adjudication process to resolve problems after which appeals can be taken. However, if people refuse to attend the first-instance hearing and turn up for an appeal, it is reasonable to charge a fee, as they have not allowed the case to be adjudicated fairly.

Different opinions have been expressed about access to the appeals process and enforcement measures. We considered that the Labour Court would sift through the appeals, but we are withdrawing that recommendation in light of submissions made to us. The information is set out in greater detail in the document supplied to the committee.

The next step is to produce legislation. The document sets out the basis on which that legislation will be drafted. It will give legislative force to what we are doing. The key measures will be to establish a body of first instance and a separate appeals body. The former will be the workplace relations commission and the latter will be the Labour Court. The roles of the five current bodies will be consolidated into these two. It will be fairly simple, with just one place to go in the first instance and one place to go to appeal. The only exception on the appeals front is equal status claims, which fall under the Equality Tribunal's remit, as opposed to workplace claims. Equal status claims will be made to the workplace relations commission in the first instance because the Equality Tribunal adjudicators, who have the requisite knowledge, will be transferring into the commission. Their experience of handling such cases will be preserved within the commission. The appeals in such cases will be to the Circuit Court, not the Labour Court, because the latter has not dealt with equal status matters, which are primarily not workplace-related issues. The requisite knowledge and experience lies with the Circuit Court. However, these cases represent only 10% of the Equality Tribunal's cases and the majority of cases will be appealed to the Labour Court.

The aim is a simple, fair, quick and effective system for dealing with people's concerns. We will seek to set out time limits for the various stages and require that there be written decisions so that the basis for those decisions are visible. The workplace relations commission will be established as an office of the Department and will have a board. As well as adjudicating when something goes wrong, it will promote best practice, disseminate information, introduce early resolution tools to avoid adjudication, develop codes of practice and conduct inspections, but it will not handle appeals. The legislation will set out all of the usual elements, including the commission's governance arrangements, the board's composition, strategy statements, reporting to the Oireachtas, the appointment of the director by the Minister on specified terms and staffing. The legislation will provide a statutory basis for the introduction of new measures, such as compliance notices and fixed charge notices, to make compliance functions more effective. It will provide for sharing of information, which is an important element. It will have a new and more transparent system for the appointment of commission adjudicators as well as chairs, vice chairs and ordinary members of the Labour Court to ensure expertise. Current adjudicators and rights commissioners will transfer from the Equality Tribunal and be trained to form the core of the adjudication system and to hear cases in the first instance. Where new people are appointed, it will be done through the Public Appointments Service. In the case of chairs and vice chairs of the Labour Court, there would be appointments by open competition and ordinary members will be appointed from panels drawn up by the social partners. We are retaining a social partnership element in the selection of ordinary members of the Labour Court because we believe that social partnership glue in the system is important.

The other issue to be addressed is improvement of the system for enforcing awards, as there has been a problem with the enforcement of awards even when they are made. We are putting in place a new system for enforcing such awards, which would involve the director of the workplace relations commission having certain power with a determination order. If an award is made but not honoured, a person can get a determination order from the body which made the adjudication, either in the first instance or on appeal, and on the basis of that determination, the person can proceed to either civil or criminal enforcement. The District Court will deal with that so it will be an easier and speedier process. There have been instances in which awards were not made because employers were walking away from their responsibilities. Redress in the area has been poor.

We see this as a body of work that has commanded much support within and outside the system among users. It has its critics and some people in the legal profession are not happy with some elements. We can defend robustly all the positions we are taking, as we are protecting human rights. We do not want an excessively legalistic process, as it does not serve the public interest or the interests of individuals seeking speedy resolution. Nevertheless, we want to protect fair systems, which is what we have done. The system will be more user-friendly, quicker, fairer and better value for money.

I welcome the contributions from committee members and acknowledge the many people who have contributed to this process and made submissions. That has informed the development of the issue, and we have made many changes along the road as we have dealt with different submissions and listened to parties with experience in the field. We now have a robust set of proposals. I welcome the comments of members.

There is some time for questions. I call Deputy Conaghan.

I welcome the Minister and his zeal for reform. Some people would say that five into two does not go. Considering the five existing structures, there have been some piecemeal approaches to problems over time, but there is also value in that they had responses to particular and specific issues. Such issues do not really change. These bodies have gained a certain amount of trust and people are familiar with the landscape; if a person was stopped on the street, he or she would know that a person's rights can be vindicated and the avenues to trust. Sometimes new structures would struggle to generate the type of trust required by State institutions.

In the time of transition proposed by the Minister, will there not be a loss? The five structures now have their own identities and ways of working, and they have been proven in the field. Does the Minister imagine areas where the proposed new structures will simply lose some of those benefits and the accumulated wisdom and practice that has evolved over time? Is there a particular template from other countries and have the Minister's suggestions been proven in the heat of industrial relations in any other country? We can lose elements as well as gaining them at points of transition. What advice have the unions given on ensuring, in so far as it is possible, that losses can be minimised and trust or reputation is not lost by the statutory bodies proposed by the Minister? Will the new agencies build on what has developed up to now rather than starting all over again? The questions may be vague but the issues are of concern to me.

The big issue is whether the reform is worth doing, and the evidence exists that it is. There is a system enforcing rights that involves a hundred different pieces of legislation. If there are 30 different forms, with multiple applications going to multiple agencies for the same incident - the source of a complaint - it is not an efficient process. The man on the street may know the names of these bodies but the ordinary worker may not necessarily know which body deals with particular pieces of legislation. We can indicate cases in which people made an application to the wrong body and that was only discovered after the complaint was statute-barred. People may be familiar with names such as the Labour Relations Commission, which has a highly regarded reputation-----

It is to do with what they represent.

We are preserving everything that is valuable in the system. Key players are endorsing and supporting this process, including unions and employers. Each side may have quibbles with one element or another but that is natural, and everybody would not want to sign up to everything. If the question is whether the broad thrust of those who are engaged in the area is behind the reform, the answer is an undoubted "Yes". The Deputy can examine the submissions. Nevertheless, there may be quibbles.

The area in which there are most complaints and in which we do not enjoy such a full level of support is the legal profession. A system that does not have early resolution and that pushes too many cases down to hearings conducted in a very legalistic way would create much work for lawyers, although it is not good for workers, employers or the taxpayer. We must simplify the system of adjudication, and we have done that. In all cases of first instance, for example, one person will hear the case. That is an innovation and it will be more cost-effective. In all cases in the first instance, there will be a private hearing, which is also cost-effective when one considers the type of facilities used. A hearing with one person in private is much easier to conduct, particularly with regard to scheduling, timeframes and delivering an efficient service. The existing system may have multiple members, with cases being initiated and adjourned and long delays before the required group can come together to proceed to the next level. Even in the first instance, the hearing may be held in public, which dictates the sort of venue that must be used and constricts the ability to deliver a timely service. We are making changes that people may quibble with around the edges but overall we will provide a service that will streamline the system. There is trust, and people with huge experience, such as Kevin Duffy from the Labour Court and Kieran Mulvey from the Labour Relations Commission, have prominently been seeking reforms of this nature for a long period. People who are respected as pillars of the system recognise its need for reform. We are creating a new environment and we have bent over backwards to ensure we do not throw out anything of value in terms of protecting people's rights. On the contrary, we believe that by making it quicker we will vindicate people's rights, as per the phrase "justice delayed is justice denied". If one must wait three years for adjudication in some cases and 90 weeks in others, it is justice delayed. We have the ambition to reduce this to three months. I understand that when change occurs people are nostalgic for what was in place previously but the evidence exists, the support is there and the simplification means one can see it and understand it will be better. It is better already. We are already able to provide hearings on demand with rights commissioners and employers know within a week that a complaint has been made so if they are in a position to correct it they will do so. Early resolution is being developed. These are stand-out measures that need to be taken and they are resulting in improvements.

For the purposes of the meeting, would it be possible for three or four speakers to make contributions before the Minister replies?

The intention is to take two speakers at a time but the conversation naturally evolved. This is the usual procedure but we began slightly differently. The next two speakers are Senator Clune and Deputy Tóibín.

I might be wrong but is it not normal procedure for Opposition members from Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group to speak first, after which Government members speak?

Would the Deputy prefer this to be the order?

I do not want to step in front of my colleague. Senator Clune can go first on this occasion.

I take it nobody is feeling hard done by.

I just wish to make a comment. This is far-reaching and we all have experience of the situations described by the Minister in dealing with individuals wondering how to access the system. A single point of access, a website and two bodies would make it very clear. The LRC has been very effective in recent years in making decisions and the fact it has moved around the country has helped enormously in resolving issues. A comment was made about five going into two, but the fact that the Labour Court will continue to exist is important because people understand it and know what it is about. My reading of it is that the workplace relations commission will absorb the other four bodies.

I should let the Senator finish, but there will be a system of first instance and appeal and some bodies do appeals at present.

There is also the issue of information.

Some functions of the bodies are going in two directions, with the function of first instance going one way and the function of appeal going another.

Will the inspectorate system operated by the National Employment Rights Authority, NERA, continue to exist? I am sure it will but where will it fit in?

I welcome the idea of consensus and the manner in which the Minister is approaching this change. I also welcome the changes made between the blueprint and the document before us. Unlike a previous speaker I do not believe the system is working properly at present and major problems exist. We are on the cusp of major difficulties with regard to labour relations and we are seeing the start of it with those at Lagan Brick and other workers left in a position where they must fight for agreements to be enforced. A major change needs to happen across the entire landscape. Lagan Brick workers were in Leinster House last week, and they are on their 250th day of trying to ensure their rights will be respected by the company.

Funding will be important because up to now, even where there have been regulations and systems, their enforcement has been difficult. How will the changeover affect cases in the pipeline? There is a major need to get rid of red tape not only for employees but also for employers because navigating the current system is very difficult for employers. How does the Minister intend to balance the inquisitorial approach and the adjudicator? I believe it is mentioned on page 41 of the document. With regard to public versus private hearings, the European charter states these issues should be dealt with in a public fashion as opposed to in private. The European Court of Human Rights allows for private hearings when time is of the essence. How will this balance be achieved by the Minister?

I also wish to mention the issue of equal status. Where will these functions be located? I understand some cases could be moved to the District Court. If this happens it would probably reduce access to justice for employees.

I assure Senator Clune that NERA will continue to carry out its work. It will have an information, compliance and enforcement role. We will introduce new tools in its armoury and it will be integrated into the workplace relations commission. The compliance notice will be a new tool in its armoury whereby, if an employer does not respect a registered employment agreement or an employment regulation order, NERA will be able to serve a compliance notice which will force a response within 21 days; failing this, the inspector can go to the Labour Court and obtain an order which will be enforceable. There will be a stage gate in the process and a compliance notice will give employers an opportunity to deal with an issue without having to go to a hearing. No change will be made to industrial relations machinery. It will move from being under the remit of the Labour Relations Commission to being under that of the workplace relations commission.

Deputy Tóibín raised the broader issue of pressure on the system. There is no doubt there is pressure on the system because the number of cases has increased dramatically. This has exposed the need for reform because the system has not been able to deal effectively with the number of cases arising and has got into many difficulties. The Deputy also raised issues with regard to the capacity of the system to deal with some of these very complex industrial relations issues. Ultimately they are industrial relations issues and we seek to get the sides together. Our system has survived periods of stress and the industrial relations machinery has been quite effective. However, this is not to say there are no areas for improvement and we are always looking at these. By and large no changes are being proposed to the industrial relations machinery. The changes are in respect of dealing with complaints, enforcement and orders.

With regard to cases in the pipeline, people in the queue for a hearing will be given the option to go to adjudication at first instance when the system is established. They will have the option of either continuing with the existing process or having their cases dealt with at first instance. The Deputy is correct that it is difficult to navigate this system. Adjudication will be predominantly inquisitorial rather than adversarial, that is, it will establish the facts of the situation. This is the aim although an adversarial element is not precluded. In the first instance the approach will be to seek to establish the facts and to proceed on the basis of finding the truth of the matter and applying the law in as fair a manner as possible. Of course, this does not preclude individuals presenting their case in whatever way they chose.

The cases dealt with by the Equality Tribunal are 85% related to workplace relations but the remaining portion of its work are cases relating to equal status. The workplace relations commission will be the court of first instance because the adjudicators who would have been dealing with this work in the Equality Tribunal will be transferring to the workplace relations commission. This expertise will be available in the workplace relations commission but the appeals arm will go to the Circuit Court rather than to the Labour Court because the Labour Court will not have the established expertise of dealing with equal status cases. The option will remain in gender equality cases to go directly to the Circuit Court, solely in respect of gender equality cases.

On the question of privacy, Mr. Alan Haugh is a lawyer and he has assisted us in examining the interpretation of the human rights requirements which are that a case may be heard in public on appeal but this is not required at first instance. The rights commissioners always held cases in private and these have not been subject to challenge; people have been satisfied with this arrangement. The Labour Court, as the court of first instance, has had the option of acceding to requests that cases be held in public but there has been a very low level of requests for public hearing. It seems the predominant desire of applicants is to have cases dealt with in private at first instance but on appeal there is a presumption that cases will be heard in public unless there is some strong reason to the contrary in the public interest. We are fully compliant with the requirements and with European Court case law to show that a hearing in private at first instance is permitted so long as a right of appeal to a hearing in public is allowed.

I welcome the Minister to the meeting. I also welcome the considered consultation process. My party had an opportunity to make two submissions and employers and groups representing employees made some good submissions. It was a good exercise. Sinn Féin supports the simplification of the system to make it more effective for both employers and employees and more fit for purpose, as the Minister stated. I welcome some of the changes or the departure from the blueprint document such as the removal of the €50 fee which was of concern and also the return of the right to appeal to the Labour Court. Sinn Féin also welcomes that there will be no mandatory requirement to seek a resolution at workplace level. These were three significant concerns and Sinn Féin is pleased these have been addressed in the Minister's latest document.

Some issues of concern remain and I will tease them out with the Minister. The first relates to the role of the advisory and information services and the compliance officers which is to deal with incidents as they arise. If a complaint is made they must act on that complaint. Sinn Féin favours a more proactive enforcement and compliance role across the board. In our view, workplace visits should be part of their work and their work should be proactive rather than simply reactive. I agree with the Minister that the promotion of good compliance should be the main objective. However, unfortunately some unscrupulous employers do not comply with labour laws. The Minister made the point about the levels and number of complaints to the Employment Appeals Tribunal. Many complaints are related to payments such as holiday pay or overtime which may have been withheld or complaints about the absence of payslips. These complaints are straightforward but they clog up the system. Part of the problem is there is no deterrent for employers. Sinn Féin wants this aspect to be examined and it goes hand in hand with the promotion of compliance. There needs to be a carrot and stick approach in cases where employers flagrantly disregard employment laws and rights and there must be some form of sanction. However, the current sanctions are simply not fit for purpose and this aspect has not been dealt with in this review. I ask the Minister to deal with this point in his reply.

I refer to page 20 of the document where it states that the service will prepare draft codes of practice concerning industrial and employment relations for submission to the Minister either on its own initiative or at the request of the Minister. Has the Minister a veto in this regard? I ask the Minister to expand on the intention.

The registration process is a matter of concern for Sinn Féin. It seems to be have been somewhat addressed but I ask for clarification. Sinn Féin was concerned that this process could act as some form of block or filter. The Minister made the point that this was a misunderstanding but that is not the case. Sinn Féin does not have a difficulty with an attempt to weed out errors in application forms but we were concerned that this process, at first glance, could be an adjudication at first instance. It would seem in the most recent document that this is not the case but I ask the Minister to clarify that the process will not be used as an adjudication at first instance which in Sinn Féin's view would not be appropriate.

I ask Senator Cullinane to expedite his contribution as a number of speakers are indicating and a member of his party has already spoken. I am conscious of time because the workers here have to finish at 10.45 a.m.

I have two further observations. I refer to section 5(4) on page 34 where a distinction is drawn between cases of right where the outcome of the process will be binding and cases of interest where the outcome may possibly be binding. I ask the Minister to explain the logic of why an outcome would not be binding also in cases of interest. Sinn Féin recently brought forward a Bill on informal insolvencies which was rejected by the Government. This arises when a company is insolvent in all but name but employees are effectively in limbo. It is an area that needs to be addressed. Will the Minister elaborate on his indication that it is being considered in a different forum? The current situation leaves a large number of workers in a legal limbo and without entitlements, whereby they cannot apply under the insolvency fund because a receiver has not been formally appointed.

I welcome the Minister. The document he has presented is welcome, not least because the language contained therein is clear and comprehensible. I readily understand the Minister's observation that the section of society that will have the most difficulty with what is proposed is the legal profession. I would remind him, however, that while he might get the members of that profession one way, they will get him back another way in that the language contained in the Bill itself will require a great deal of legal input. From that perspective, I plead with the Minister that the Bill be written in a language that the common man can understand. I have been saying for a long time that the language in which Bills are written is designed to accommodate not the ordinary Joe Soap but those people who consider themselves better educated than the rest of us.

I see no function for a board of the proposed workplace relations commission. Those of us who have served on county enterprise boards, VEC boards and so on are aware that board members serve merely to rubber-stamp what is propounded by the chief executive officer. A more useful proposal in regard to the proposed commission might be for the chief executive officer, or whoever is in charge, to attend meetings of the relevant committee on a regular basis to explain what is going on. Given that the members of the proposed board will not be paid, one might conclude that they will not have as much interest in bringing ideas to the commission. If the Minister is convinced of the necessity of a board, will he consider ensuring it has more teeth than what is suggested here?

Several speakers mentioned compliance issues, with Senator David Cullinane referring specifically to cases in which companies that go into liquidation fail to pay their workers the statutory redundancy to which they are entitled. Will the Minister consider blacklisting companies or individuals that refuse to meet their statutory redundancy obligations as handed down by the Labour Court? It is a matter for concern that there does not seem to be a timeframe within which compliance must be fulfilled. When the Minister comes to introduce regulations or statutory instruments, he might include a timeframe within which rulings by the Labour Court or the commission must be complied with, with failure to do so leading to court proceedings.

Will the Minister indicate whether any role is envisaged for the staff of the Employment Appeals Tribunal? He indicated that the Labour Court does not have the required legal knowledge base, but there are surely tribunal staff with the necessary expertise who could be brought into the Labour Court.

I invite the Minister to respond at this point.

I thank Senator David Cullinane for recognising the value of our proposals and the changes we have made. I, in turn, thank the Sinn Féin Party for its submission. In regard to compliance officers, they will continue to visit workplaces but it will not be a reactive service. The Senator's interpretation in this regard is not correct. In regard to sanctions, we are introducing new measures, as set out on page 50 of the document, whereby fixed-charge notices will apply in respect of a specified range of acts of compliance on the part of employers. We are streamlining the entire system of enforcement by requiring that employers respond to compliance notices within 21 days, after which proceedings will be taken to the Labour Court in the case of registered employment agreements or employment regulation orders. Where an employer refuses to meet its obligations in the case of an award made to a worker, we have provided that either the worker or the workplace relations commissioner can go back to the adjudication body and obtain a determination order on foot of which they can take either a civil or a criminal case to the District Court. To answer Deputy Anthony Lawlor's question, employers who fail to meet their obligations will be fined, which is the ultimate form of blacklisting.

In regard to Senator Cullinane's point on the vetoing of codes of practice, we have simply transferred the existing arrangement. Specifically, the Minister can initiate rather than veto. The Senator acknowledged that the role of the registrar is not to adjudicate. Where a case is not properly founded in law or the application omits essential information, the registrar will step in. It is not a case of seeking to impose a type of preliminary weeding out of cases.

In regard to the binding nature of findings, while rulings in employment rights cases are binding, it has been the tradition under Irish law that industrial relations findings are not. Such matters have always been dealt with on a voluntary basis. We are not seeking to change the basis on which industrial relations are conducted by introducing statutory obligations on either side to accept rulings of the Labour Court or elsewhere. We do not intend to alter a system that has been established over decades of practice.

Deputy Lawlor urged that care be taken to ensure the legislation is framed in common language. A great deal can be done in this regard. At the same time, however, I can predict with certainty that the parliamentary draftsmen will be very insistent that the Bill is framed in such a way that its intent is clearly understood by the courts. The system, as I understand it, is that we bring forward our proposals in ordinary language and the parliamentary draftsmen come back with language that will work in the courts. There is probably a filtering out of common language in the course of that process, but I am assured that this is done only in order to make the legislation robust and ensure certainty.

The legal system does not provide certainty, however, which is why there is always somebody on the anti side and others on the pro side.

I take the Deputy's point.

Deputy Lawlor asked about the function of the board of the workplace relations commission. Boards have a place where there is a need for guidance from people of experience in a particular field. Those on the board we propose to put in place will not be paid and the CEO will still be required to come before this committee. I am sure members will accept that the board of the LRC has fulfilled an important and useful function. There is a value in having on a board people who will not be paid but who have experience in this field. Both Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland have boards. This is because we understand that no administration will have available to it all of the experience necessary to develop particular strategies. In that context, the type of boards to which I refer have a role to play. This is one of the areas where having available a broader base of people who have a feel for the territory can assist in informing the strategy being pursued. That is why the board has been selected.

If a more conventional model is being adopted and implemented, then a CEO could probably administer it. Boards are put in place where a broader range of experience is required in order that strategies might be formulated, where it is necessary to be sensitive to the changing environment and so forth. That is the background to what we are doing here. The case is well made in the context of putting a board in place. I will look afresh at the issues raised at this meeting. I am merely taking this opportunity to explain the different choices we have made.

The system in place in this area is full of timeframes. If an award is made to an employee and if, after six weeks, this has not been honoured, he or she can approach the WRC to obtain a determination order. There are also timelines in place in respect of hearings of first instance, appeals and the writing of judgments. In other words, hearings must be held and adjudications must be written up within specified periods.

I apologise for interrupting the Minister but the point I was trying to get across is that there must be a timeline regarding the making of and compliance with judgments.

After six weeks a person will be able to complain that a judgment has not been honoured. It is of course open to an employer to appeal against a judgment. In the event of such an appeal being made, the six-week timeframe would not apply.

The Minister stated that six weeks after the Labour Court - the final arbitration body - makes a judgment an employer must comply with its terms. That does not appear to be the position at present.

If, after six weeks, the agreed body has not received notice of compliance, it can approach the WRC which can then obtain a determination order. The matter will then enter a civil or criminal process. We will clarify the position on this matter when we reach the legislative stage.

I asked about companies that are insolvent in all but name and the legal limbo in which this places many workers.

That is a problem. This is an issue under the Companies Act and it arises where workers cannot go to the insolvency fund if the insolvency is not formalised in the first instance. It goes beyond the scope of the proposed legislation we are discussing because companies in this position have obligations not just to their employees but to all of their creditors as well. I will return to the Senator on that matter which relates to company law rather than this legislation.

Deputy Lawlor referred to the Equality Tribunal and suggested that appeals should be made to the Labour Court rather than the Circuit Court. Discussions have taken place with the Department of Justice and Equality on this issue. The reason we have chosen the route we propose to take is because the Labour Court does not have the relevant experience. The Deputy suggested that we should appoint to it people who possess the necessary experience in order that it might conduct appeals. We have been advised that the Circuit Court has an established method of handling these cases. To seek to replicate that within the Labour Court in order that it might deal with non-workplace issues would not represent the best use of resources. We can, however, re-examine the matter.

The problem is that the Circuit Court is extremely busy.

Is it not the District Court?

Whichever court is involved, there can often be a difficulty in the context of obtaining a date on which to have an appeal heard. The position would be different with the Labour Court, which might be able to resolve matters much more quickly than the District Court or the Circuit Court.

I am informed that only 75 hearings of first instance occur each year in respect of such cases and that a very small number of these are appealed. If we were to proceed as the Deputy suggests, we would be trying to establish within the Labour Court a system of expertise in respect of a very tiny flow of work relating to particular types of cases with which it does not currently deal. The cost-benefit analysis suggested that it would be better to leave the matter with the Circuit Court. Perhaps there were also more profound reasons but-----

Would it not be possible for a judge to go on secondment to the Labour Court?

We must move on. The two final members to ask questions will be Deputy Kyne and Senator White.

I welcome the Minister and his officials and I thank the Minister for his submission. I am aware that a great deal of positive consultation took place in order to produce it. I welcome the initiative shown in this regard.

The process is being simplified and anything that reduces the amount of paperwork that must be completed is a welcome development. The replacing of 30 separate forms with one is an excellent way to proceed and I am of the view that this should be replicated across a range of areas of government.

I concur with Deputy Conaghan with regard to the loss of expertise. The Minister explained the position in this regard. It is important that the necessary expertise be retained within the relevant bodies.

I welcome the position in respect of the fee. When I tabled a parliamentary question on this matter in May, a decision had not been taken in this regard. The fact that it will be set at €50 is a positive development because if it were any higher, people might be dissuaded from taking cases.

I also tabled a parliamentary question on the subject of mitigation in June, at which point the Minister indicated, "The position in relation to representation at hearings of the WRC and Labour Court will be in line with existing arrangements and provisions insofar as the Rights Commissioners, Equality Tribunal, Employment Appeals Tribunal and Labour Court are concerned in that parties will be free to represent themselves or be represented by a person of their choosing."

I welcome that this will be the position.

On the registration process and the role of the registrar, the Minister's submission states:

The submissions received in response to the Blueprint included considerable commentary on the proposed Registration Service and the role envisaged for it. It is fair to say, that the commentary was largely negative.

The registrar will be of a legal background and he or she will have a support team at his or her disposal. If he or she decides that a complaint is not worthy of being referred to the WRC, is spurious or whatever, is there a mechanism whereby a complainant can appeal or query the decision made in this regard?

In the context of the international experience, does the Minister believe that the majority of cases will be dealt with by conciliation and early resolution as opposed to being referred to the Labour Court?

I compliment the Minister and his Department on the excellent work done in respect of the proposed legislation. The submission that has been put forward is excellent and I am very impressed by it. If the 19 key improvements can be delivered in full by the end of the current year, we will have taken a massive step forward. This is an excellent document and I congratulate everyone involved with its production.

The Minister indicated that there will not be any remuneration for the members of the board. I was a member of the board of Bord Bia when I was working on a 24-7 basis at Lir Chocolates. Initially, I thought I could not afford the time away from the company to do it but then I thought that with my experience I should be able to contribute substantially. I do not understand the thinking behind the reason people would not get remuneration. People who get paid can still be very altruistic; they give up their time from their work. I have heard radio commentary in recent months about people not getting paid as board members. That is ridiculous. People give up time from their work to put their hearts and souls into this work and what is wrong with them being remunerated? I do not want to take from this excellent document but I could not support the notion of not remunerating people, as if there is something wrong with getting paid for giving up time from one's work. We want good people on this board. We need people who will make a contribution to it and not people who are only there to claim travel expenses or whatever. I find that aspect about the travel expenses strange; it is like playing to the gallery. I do not want to go on about it but it is ridiculous. What is wrong with these board members getting paid?

We have definitely got the Senator's point.

It is an excellent document and congratulations to everybody involved. What kind of people will the Minister invite to be on the board? Are they people who are already involved in this area? The people who would be good are busy people. They are not do-gooders just-----

I have definitely heard that point.

It is a big issue.

Senator, I am being really polite this morning.

I have only spoken in the past few minutes.

In fairness, the Senator did.

I apologise for being late. I was dealing with an important matter for a person who has got very good news about it.

That is good.

With regard to Deputy Kyne's point, which was also raised by Deputy Lawlor, we are retaining the expertise. The adjudicators at first instance who will be manning this will be rights commissioners and equality officers from the Equality Tribunal and there will also be a panel to deal with the peaks and troughs in demand. We will retain the expertise across the system in the transfer. There will be provision for appeal to the Labour Court if someone is not satisfied where a registrar has removed a case that is not founded in law.

The Deputy asked if we could give an indication of what percentage of cases will be dealt with before hearings, what percentage at first instance and what percentage at appeal based on international best practice. We are dealing with cases at first instance, therefore, the early resolution system to draw off cases is only being piloted now. We would not have experience on that. Clearly, our desire is to have as many of the cases dealt with at the lowest level of complexity.

I thank Senator White for her congratulations. Mr. Ger Deering, Mr. Alan Haugh and all the bodies involved have put a great deal of work into this to make this happen. There has been huge co-operation across the whole system to adapt to a new system. It is a good example of co-operation, of the Croke Park agreement working. There has been a considerable acceptance and adoption of new work practices.

Many boards are voluntary in nature. These are not executive boards, they are of an advisory nature. The members are allowed expenses to travel to and fro. Many of the people on these boards would come from employer groups or trade union groups whose jobs are in this field and while they provide advice, they also provide work that is in accord with their employment. Some of the members would be in that group. This involves asking people to contribute in the area of public service. That has been the case with county enterprise boards, whose members have been volunteers. They are not paid. Many bodies that do not play executive roles operate on that basis. To be fair, many people are willing to do it pro bono at a time of challenge for the State in terms of funding and getting things done. That is the basis on which this is being done. We will certainly bear in mind what the Senator said as we prepare legislation. It is being done on this basis because it is an advisory board and many of the people will have other roles that this will complement. That is the justification for it.

I accept the Minister's answer but, in principle, I could not agree with it.

I can understand that.

I do not want to take from the quality of this. It is first-class work.

I thank the Minister for attending and for his contribution on this important topic. I am sure the committee will reflect in more detail on the position ahead of the publication of the heads of the Bill.

I thank the committee. This is a very useful process. The consultation process has been very useful, including the political input as we went along, and hopefully the final product will be better for having had that input.

It is good to have an opportunity to put the horse before the cart for a change, as it has been the other way in the past.

I suggest that we defer our private session until our next joint committee meeting at 1.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 17 July, given that we are due to come back here at 11 a.m. for a select committee. It will be a brief meeting. There is one item to be dealt with which would have been set out in the e-mail members received - some members are looking at me as if they are not sure about this. A Supplementary Estimate has to be dealt with at a very brief meeting of the select committee at 11 a.m. and I ask members to return in 15 minutes. The joint committee is adjourned.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.50 a.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 17 July 2012.
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