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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION debate -
Wednesday, 9 Nov 2011

Child Social Protection Issues: Discussion with Barnardos

We have a presentation today from Barnardos on how children from disadvantaged backgrounds are faring at school, proposals to improve their educational outcomes and address wider social disadvantages and social protection issues as well. I welcome Mr. Fergus Finlay, the chief executive, and Ms June Tinsley, the policy officer, of Barnardos here today.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Fergus Finlay

I thank the committee for the opportunity to say a few words. The brief of the committee is wide, covering jobs, social protection and education. Our brief is narrower in one sense but every bit as wide in another sense.

We believe strongly that the key to enterprise in Ireland and to ensuring that people do not need social protection, except for during short periods, is education. We work in 40 locations in Ireland, mainly with children who are not getting the start in life we would all want our children to get. The main reason for that is economic. Our experience demonstrates that a child born into circumstances of poverty has a hill to climb to make it in life. For a child born into poverty in a dysfunctional family situation, and dysfunction is not a word I use to blame families, it can arise for a variety of reasons, the hill becomes Kilimanjaro. For a child born in poverty in a dysfunctional family in a disadvantaged community, Kilimanjaro becomes Everest.

The key to climbing Everest is education. The key to a good education for children whose lives are blighted by disadvantage is a good start. Our emphasis is on early years education. With all the children we work with, we use a curriculum known as the High/Scope curriculum that was developed in the US and tested over many years in longitudinal studies and in other ways. It provides children born into disadvantage with the skills and confidence to make it in education. We have invested heavily in recent years in adding components to the curriculum to increase the level of sociability and emotional well-being of the children we work with. We want all of our kids to start school with the skills, confidence and resilience to make it. We track our kids through school and try to be there to support them at the difficult moments of transition.

Like many other NGOs working in the field, we would suggest that the link between good early education and school completion is profound. The child who starts well will finish better. The link between poor school completion and continuing lifelong social disadvantage, anti-social behaviour, gang behaviour and criminality is also profound. Mr. John Lonergan, who is a member of our board and a former governor of Mountjoy Prison, would tell the committee that over many years as governor, the thing that made him despair was that the population of the prison was made up to a considerable extent of people who did not get a good start in education at two or three years of age. We argue the investment in education is the most important investment the State makes and that the cutbacks in education are disastrous, not just for the children who are affected by them but ultimately for the State.

The cutbacks in resource teachers, special needs assistants, language support teachers and visiting teachers for Travellers have all exacerbated the situation of children struggling in education. They do not have any great effect on children who are already well equipped but those are not the children we must worry about. We strongly urge Parliament and the Government to take seriously the task of investing in education, particularly at these levels and for children who are struggling in education. Apart from the social consequences and justice issues involved in depriving children of a decent start in education, it is a ticking time bomb. Every child who leaves school early is a child at risk and society is at risk from that child. We create that risk day in and day out, particularly when we cut back on resources that struggling children need and we are saving almost nothing. The cutbacks that have been made in resource teaching and language support save petty cash. The social and economic consequences of those cutbacks are a multiple of that.

Because we are involved with children and education, particularly at moments of transition, in recent years we have focused heavily on the cost of starting education and making the transition from first to second level. For the last five years, we have published an annual survey of those costs and demonstrated that the costs of starting a child in education and making the transition from first to second level are escalating year after year. This year, for the first time, we have generated not just public and media reaction but engagement at Government level, which is extremely welcome. We worked with Ministers on a range of ideas to improve the situation for children and families starting school. It would be our hope that by continuing that work, we will arrive at a point next year when the costs of school books and clothing will be influenced in a downward direction by Government policy and we welcome that. I would urge this committee to keep an eye on that, particularly on school costs when children are starting and when they are making the transition, and to keep up the pressure on Government to ensure things like the agreement with school book publishers and other initiatives are followed through.

Our experience suggests that the two most important gifts that a decent start in education can give to children who are challenged in a variety of ways by the circumstances are literacy and numeracy. We greatly welcome the Government's emphasis on literacy and numeracy. It is one of the great scandals that for more than 30 years, for as long as the figures have been gathered, the one statistic that has never changed has been the number of children from disadvantaged communities in Ireland who leave school, unable to read or write. In 1970, that statistic was one third of all children from disadvantaged communities, today it is still, more or less, a third of all children from disadvantaged communities, who leave school unable to read or write. It is extremely welcome that we are placing a new emphasis on literacy and numeracy, but it must be backed up by resources. It is simply not possible to deliver on literacy and numeracy, while at the same time stripping supports out of the system. We have a view that bodies such as the National Education Welfare Board, NEWB, the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, and other bodies which are critically important in the educational system, have become increasingly marginalised and are not regarded as part of the core function of the Department of Education and Skills. It is an exaggeration to say that the NEWB and NEPS in particular have been privatised but they have been cut a drift from the core work of the Department. We believe that must change. We have always felt that it was quite bizarre that the remit of the NEWB begins when children are six years old. Children are at the single most developmental point of their lives from four years when they are in preschool or starting their primary education. Children in the four to five year age cohort should be a key target of the work of the NEWB because if they are missing school at that age, the outlook for them individually is very bad. Children who miss substantial periods of school early on are almost doomed to fail in the education system. That is entirely preventable.

In broader terms we want to see children supported through education and families supported in particular, around the costs of education. We have consistently called for a national school book rental scheme. We have argued before a different committee of the Oireachtas that there should be no further cuts in child benefit. If there are to be further cuts in child benefit, they must be done in a much more sophisticated way than has been the case in the past, particularly at the time children are starting school, when there is hardly a family that does not require support. The crude cuts of recent years, which were not adequately compensated for in terms of families on low income, have exacerbated the problems of many families. At the same time, it is inarguable that changes need to be made in the management of things such as the back to school clothing and footwear allowance. We only discovered quite recently, for example, that allowance is available to children of two years of age. It does not make any sense that at a time when you cannot afford to support families whose children are going to school, the allowance is still being paid out to the parents of two year old children, who are not going to school and are not in preschool education. I think it is possible to reform this provision.

The essence of our message is that we must, as an economy, never mind as a society, support children to get a good start in education. We know that the experiments that have taken place in initially supporting parents around the cost of child care and the much better idea, in our view, of a free preschool year is under pressure. It would be a complete scandal, if the Government were, in the context of budgetary pressures, to abandon the free preschool year. We want to see it extended and driven by standards. At present the free preschool year is delivered to three year old children through a grant system that is paid out to in excess of 2,500 providers. It is not delivered through the education system. In fact the Department of Education and Skills appears to have little or nothing to do with it. It is delivered by the Department of Children and Youth Affairs through a mix of private and community providers. We do not have a major problem with that but with the fact there are no standards, no curriculum and as a consequence, the standard of the preschool year is variable from one provider to the next. The vast majority do their best and are very good, but there is no value to a preschool year if it is not educational. One of the expressions you often hear in this field is that there should be no care without education and there should be no education without care. It is horrifying to discover that even though there is a framework of standards known as Síolta, of the more than 2,500 providers in the field, less than 300 operate the existing framework of standards. They have been given little or no assistance in rolling that out.

I have come to the end of my presentation but Ms Tinsley may wish to comment. I am more than happy to answer questions.

Ms June Tinsley

No. I will help to answer questions.

I thank Mr. Finlay and Ms Tinsley for their presentations and their commitment and dedication to children, through Barnardos.

I know from my colleagues that they have worked with Governments present and past, in identifying and highlighting initiatives and programmes following much research and from their hands-on experience.

I agree that education is the greatest catalyst and enabler in allowing the disadvantaged to progress and to avail of the opportunities that exist in the wider workplace. The aspiration of our Republic is to provide every citizen with every opportunity to work in their own country and they can only do that best, having accessed the best possible education available to them.

I agree with the analysis of the educational system and the assistance it can provide in early education. I agree that the move from grant allocations towards child care and preschool to the provision of the service was much more advantageous to children. I was at a conference recently when a professor in a third level institution was more adamant in impressing upon those present that the most important part of any education is preschool, not primary or secondary education. I think the witnesses are quite correct in saying that it should be extended and run for a two year cycle. If that is to be the case, prior consultation should take place with the relevant sectors. As Mr. Finlay stated some of those providers are providing a very good service but others are providing a child care facility. The educational standards have to be brought to the fore and a curriculum needs to be drawn up so the Department of Education and Skills needs to be brought on board, as well as the sectoral interests in addition to public representation. This is paramount, but I do not expect it to happen overnight. We should retain what is in place and build on it. We should put in place a working group to investigate the means and methods by which the scheme can be extended and improved in order to get the maximum benefit from it and assist those in greatest need, the disadvantaged communities. Unfortunately, my colleague, Deputy Brendan Smith, could not be here but we are totally committed to that programme. Along with others in my party, I will impress on this committee the need to retain, elaborate on and extend the scheme in question.

Mr. Fergus Finlay

I thank the Deputy for his comments and his support for the concept of more and better preschool education. If one examines the annual OECD reports, Education at a Glance, one will discover that Ireland spends approximately the OECD average, on a head of population basis, on third level education. We spend a little less than the OECD average on secondary education and much less than the OECD average on primary education. Until a couple of years ago, Ireland was the only OECD country that was spending nothing at all on preschool education. That has changed to some extent. This is the only jurisdiction within the OECD of which I am aware where preschool education is not delivered by the education department. Ireland is the only country in the OECD where the education department has nothing to do with preschool education. That may be a good thing or a bad thing. Certainly, one does not want to replace the current system with something that is bureaucratic and hidebound. That would be the risk if the Department of Education and Skills here were to have anything to do with this area. Standards are necessary. There has to be a curriculum. There must be a sense that preschooling really is education. Far too much preschool education in Ireland is provided by hard-working and really committed people who are not trained. Many of them are on community employment schemes and are not pursuing careers in preschool education. When the introduction of a system of preschool education in this country was first mooted, the Government estimated that 70,000 training places would be needed to provide a proper system. There has been no training other than that undertaken by individuals in the institutes of technology in Carlow and Sligo. Cohorts of students are earning degrees in early childhood development before going out into a world where there is no career structure for them. That is just daft.

Ms June Tinsley

I would like to add to that. As Mr. Finlay has rightly said, the entire infrastructure is largely privately run. In 2005, the National Economic and Social Forum examined how we could shift to a more statutory infrastructure and produced a blueprint for the roll-out of a State-subsidised system of early years provision. The report included detailed costings for each stage in the process. If the 2005 proposals had been implemented, one would hope that such a system would well and truly be in operation by now. Perhaps we should revisit the matter in this era of fewer resources. We have an opportunity to go back to those costings. The downside of having an infrastructure that is largely privately owned is that it is up to parents to pay for the service. That is absolutely crippling parents at a time when incomes are falling. Some 29% of the parental income of those who require child care services is spent on child care. The European average is 13%. There is a huge burden on parents to meet the cost of child care. As Mr. Finlay rightly said, if the quality varies the service the children get is questionable.

I welcome the representatives of Barnardos. I thank Barnardos for the work it is doing in communities. I do not think it is acknowledged often enough. All Deputies, Senators and other public representatives are aware of the positive work that is being done in communities by groups like Barnardos.

I would like to put this morning's discussion in context. I met the principal of a school in a disadvantaged area last week. She told me there has been a fivefold increase in the number of children availing of the school's breakfast club. I do not know if Barnardos is noticing a similar pattern elsewhere. If a child is going to school hungry, it means he or she is not getting fed at home. It is important that this crucial support is maintained.

According to the principals of DEIS schools, many of the measures that have been taken recently are having a significant effect on schools. Barnardos has produced a document about the need to reduce class sizes. We know class sizes are growing in most schools inside and outside DEIS areas. We are familiar with the impact that is having. We are aware of the difficulty being caused by the removal of special needs assistants and language support teachers from many schools. We understand the impact visiting Traveller teachers can have. Many of the measures that are being taken at the moment are having a significant impact on schools in disadvantaged areas. Are the effects of these developments being noticed by Barnardos? What kind of impact do the delegates feel they are having? Principals and others working in our schools are concerned about the impact of the forthcoming budget, which was mentioned by Mr. Finlay. Do the witnesses agree that the current difficulties are likely to be exacerbated by the budget?

Evidence from studies of rural and urban areas strongly suggests that the disadvantage associated with rural poverty does not have the same impact on educational achievement as disadvantage in an urban context. Do the witnesses have a view on that? What are the differences between what we are doing in rural settings and what we are doing in urban settings? Is it the case, as Mr. Finlay suggested in his opening remarks, that the social impact of things that happen in communities might not necessarily be the same in rural areas as it is in urban areas? Is that the difference? A report by a departmental inspector refers to an evaluation that is coming down the tracks soon. There is a concern that something is happening in a rural context that is not happening in an urban context. The big worry is that the resources that are being invested in rural areas to support DEIS or CLÁR schools will be removed. Does Mr. Finlay have a view on that?

I would like to conclude by asking about special needs assistants. There have been difficulties in ensuring the supports follow the child. People talk about the trapdoor between one school and another. Do the delegates have views on that? I am thinking particularly about what happens to kids in DEIS areas when they move from junior to senior school. It is important that the supports follow such children.

Mr. Fergus Finlay

A number of questions have been asked. I am not an expert on all the issues that have been raised, but I will do my best to address them. We started running breakfast clubs a number of years ago. We employ full-time cooks and operate full-time kitchens in most of our clubs. We have always seen breakfast clubs as a great way of enabling kids to relax at the start of the day and make friends. They get something without having to worry too much about going straight into class. I will mention one of the lessons we learned at an early stage. While it is, in theory, a great idea to operate a breakfast club on the basis of yogurt and muesli, in practice, children attend at the smell of bacon. I am afraid nearly all of our breakfast clubs start in the morning with the frying of bacon. What we have found is that we are running full-time kitchens because more and more children are coming to us hungry. They are not coming to relax but for nutrition. We are providing two meals per day in most of the projects because one cannot be sure what is available when children go home.

We all know the effects of low nutrition and hunger on, for example, concentration and classroom behaviour. All of these things are linked and the problem is set to get worse. Through all the years of the Celtic tiger, the number of children who lived in consistent poverty, measured by factors other than income, such as nutrition, protein in the diet, hunger, cold, fear and so forth, remained stubbornly high at around one child in nine or ten. When the most recent figures are published in December we expect that the number of children living in consistent poverty will have increased to one in eight. If that is the case, it will mean that one in eight children will be too hungry to concentrate in school. The Department of Education and Skills is now running breakfast clubs in many schools for precisely this reason. It is an extraordinary comment on a country that has come through the period of prosperity we experienced and has entered the second decade of the 21st century that one in eight of our children is likely to be hungrier and colder than they should be this winter.

My personal view on special needs assistants is informed partly by our work in Barnardos and partly by many years of involvement in the disability movement. The special needs assistants system was badly designed at the start, which is part of the reason there is so much difficulty with it. It was designed, if one likes, on a per child basis, in other words, the special needs assistant followed the child. In most other jurisdictions the system is designed around the needs of the class and school. The system is much more sustainable when teachers in the classroom and schools are supported by a cohort of trained assistants who are sufficiently flexible to meet a variety of changing needs as the day goes on. In this country, we established a system and employed thousands of people on short, fixed-term contracts. This made it easy not to change the system but to sack the special needs assistants. Even at this stage, I advocate a much higher level of dialogue between the Department and the various interests, particularly in the disability movement. It is possible and doable to arrive at realistic and affordable managed approaches to the provision of special needs assistance, as opposed to special needs assistants.

I worry that the crude response of simply eliminating the positions because the special needs assistants in question are on a short-term contract will not address the problem but will make it worse. For example, it will make many transitions, including the transition from first to second level, impossible. The ultimate consequence of all of this is that we will end up rebuilding special schools and moving away from a progressive policy of offering more mainstream places to children with special needs. If we cannot support children in mainstream education, the only alternative will be, so to speak, to go back to the future of special education. Apart from the fact that the old approach did not work in terms of achieving the growth and development of people with special needs, it is a much more expensive system for the State, as was the case in the past.

In our experience, the difference between rural and urban poverty is highly complex, particularly in the area of education. It is possible to live in a highly populated part of Dublin and be more alone, lonely and isolated than one would be living anywhere in rural Ireland. This is due to the fragmentation of community and breakdown of family in parts of urban Ireland. On the other hand, rural poverty, particularly in recent years and specifically in the area of education, has been exacerbated by cutbacks in school transport which have had a greater impact in rural areas than in urban areas. While there are pluses and minuses, in recent years, the latter have dominated.

Ms June Tinsley

On Deputy Crowe's comments on DEIS and non-DEIS schools, a commitment has been given to reduce the number of cutbacks affecting DEIS schools. While this is a welcome development, we are hearing on the ground that the commitment is not being met in some cases and cutbacks have been made. This has resulted in some DEIS schools losing homework clubs which are crucial in keeping children in and engaged with school. We have also found that 56% of children from disadvantaged backgrounds attend non-DEIS schools. This means a significant proportion of children who need additional supports are attending non-DEIS schools, which have experienced major cutbacks.

I thank Mr. Finlay and Ms Tinsley for their presentation. I read their interesting presentation and fully agree with much of what they have said. I am a great believer that poverty is a thief and education is the great liberator. I will make a few comments on which I seek the perspective of our guests.

On the literacy strategy, which is welcome, I accept the criticism that it does not sufficiently target or engage parents. We should work towards the development of an adult literacy policy that encompasses every strand of the education system. It was interesting to learn during our meeting with representatives of FÁS that, despite working with many young people who have literacy problems, the organisation does not have an adult literacy strategy. The five policies which every primary school must have in place do not include an adult literacy strategy. If primary schools were required to have a policy on engaging with the parent body and wider community, it could be judged, inspected and updated. Unfortunately, they are not required to have such a policy in place. Will Mr. Finlay and Ms Tinsley comment on that proposal?

I agree with the comments made about Mountjoy Prison. I visited the prison last week and literacy levels in it are extremely low. Whereas 35% of the prison population is actively engaged in educational programmes, an already low figure, the figure in Mountjoy Prison is only 15%.

On the programmes operated by Barnardos, educational support should commence nine months before birth, as it were. I concur with the comments on the issue of pre-school education. My experience as a school principal in a disadvantaged area is that from the moment one meets four year old children one can identify which of them will have challenges and which of them will not. This can be done on the basis of their demeanour, whether they have been fed and are rested and how well they are presented. A number of reports have shown that when compared to a child from a more affluent area with a less challenging background, a four year old child in a disadvantaged school who comes from a challenging background will start school with a gap to make up. This essential gap, which is clear at the age of four years, will remain even though the progress of the children in question through the education system may be the same. There is, therefore, a combination of what happens in the education system and what happened before the child entered mainstream education.

The Young Ballymun organisation had a conference recently which showed that the problem with our education system, as currently structured, is that there is a direct contradiction, if one likes, between the amount of funding we put into pre-school education versus the impact it has. We must address the anomaly whereby most funding is allocated to educational programmes in later years where it has little impact. The comments of the representatives on that issue would be appreciated.

What is the balance of support versus empowerment? I agree with the comments on children going to school hungry. Our school and other schools and principals with whom I have discussed the issue say they provide a homework club and a breakfast club but there must be a mechanism within this to empower parents at some stage to take on that responsibility. Where is the balance between empowering the parents to do it and a child going to school hungry? It should be easy to ascertain.

In some isolated circumstances there may be a family who say the children get their breakfast in school and they do their homework in school. Surely the best outcome would be that a parent would be empowered to deliver those services in their own home. How does one strike that balance when the alternative is to leave a child potentially hungry or without homework provision?

In regard to educational supports, a delegation on special education needs appeared before the committee recently and said it did not accept my criticism about the general allocation model which I have always considered benefits richer schools rather than smaller schools. Nor did it accept my criticism about SNAs and the fact that those schools who have access to private psychological reports tend to get a larger allocation of SNAs.

In respect of the National Educational Welfare Board, the position of four and five year old children who are absent from school is being reviewed. That a ten year old child who has missed 50 days gets more attention from the NEWB and the education welfare officer than a four year old child who has missed 100 days is incredible. However, that is the system as of now and it has to change. If a child is within the education system, the carrot and stick must follow him or her.

I tabled a parliamentary question recently on the back to school allowance. Given the anomaly in the system whereby €7.96 million is spent on two and three year olds who are not attending school, is it correct that we would have a back-to-school allowance for those children? Could the fund be better targeted and, perhaps, administered through schools? Would the representatives welcome the school administering such a support?

On the question of preschool, particularly in disadvantaged communities, the issue is the balance between empowerment and support. Many young parents who are engaged in helping preschool community-based initiatives are well-meaning and do their best but are not equipped to target the fundamental literacy and educational issues that are required in those circumstances. Many of those involved are CE participants. Again, it is the balance between empowering young parents who may never have been involved in formal employment and are now involved in an educational setting but do not have the essential skills to benefit the child. In many of these circumstances, the balance between what benefits the child and what benefits the worker has gone the wrong way.

I call Deputy Halligan. I apologise as I should have called him first.

I compliment Barnardos on its great work. In his opening remarks, Mr. Finlay spoke about poverty and a close association with economics. As we are all aware, the economic position can have an effect on the quality of life for most people. Mr. Finlay touched on many topics such as preschool, special needs and so on and alluded to the fact that during the boom period, the so-called Celtic tiger, agencies such as Combat Poverty, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and Barnardos cited statistics showing one in ten children went to school without proper clothing and proper sustenance. One expects that - statistics will be available shortly - in the coming years given there are no increases in social welfare payments and the cutbacks in various departments, poverty levels will increase dramatically. It is clear from speaking with teachers in my area that children go to school hungry, ill and depressed because of the home situation due to a lack of finance. Despite all the educational programmes in place, based on present economic circumstances, if social welfare payments are not increased at source for the most vulnerable in society, the poverty levels among children will get worse. We can provide for special needs, preschool and so on but the fundamental issue, according to the United Nations, is that the alleviation of poverty is primarily financial. There are other aspects such as education but it is primarily financial. It is impossible-----

I would ask the Deputy to be brief.

I would like the same amount of time as others.

Yes, I am sure there are more questions the Deputy wishes to raise.

Surely what is required is an increase in social welfare payments and benefits to the vast numbers of social welfare recipients and the unemployed, otherwise we will alleviate poverty and stop the trend of children going to school hungry and without proper clothing.

A comment was made about empowering parents to do certain things. We cannot empower parents to properly feed their children if they do not have sufficient finances to do so. Depending on the particular social welfare payments coming into a family home with two, three or four children, it is not possible, in the present economic circumstances, to adequately support children. I would advocate that poverty is alleviated by education. We can have all the education we like but if parents do not have sufficient funding to feed and clothe their children, those children will go to school depressed and, as has been rightly said, fall out of the education system.

I commend Mr. Fergus Finlay and Ms June Tinsley on their work in Barnardos for the deprived, vulnerable and disadvantaged in society. The pupil-teacher ratio in Ireland is one of the highest in Europe. An aspiration by all parties in government and those facing elections and included in our party manifesto is to reduce dramatically the number of pupils per teacher but that is not happening. A large number of children are falling behind as a result of family circumstances. Through no fault of the teacher, they fail to identify and give ample time to these pupils.

Mr. Finlay commented on teachers' assistants. There is an opportunity at present, given the internship scheme, to alleviate the difficulties. Perhaps some structure can be formed with the Department of Education and Skills to bring these people on board. It is sad that newly qualified teachers should have to emigrate with their certificates in their back pockets as there are no opportunities for them here. They should be integrated into the education system immediately to help alleviate the problems we face.

The other issue is literacy and numeracy. I highly commend Barnardos for what they are trying to do at around 40 locations with the help of people aged over 55 years. That should be expanded. There are many capable retired people who are well qualified and who could do this on a pro bono basis, if it was looked at by the Department of Education and Skills, Barnardos and local authorities. Our public libraries are under-utilised by city and county councils. They are locked up at 6 p.m. even though they have great facilities. We should look into what we can do to make more use of these buildings.

Literacy problems in disadvantaged areas are alarming, even among parents. The parents need to be up-skilled. There is a social aspect to this that we need to address. There is much depth to it and I am sure that Barnardos have a better insight than even politicians.

The cost of books is exorbitant, which is made worse by changing the curriculum from year to year. Under the old system, the curriculum would remain the same for a number of years and this made sense in national schools. These books were reused and passed on within the family or even within the neighbourhood. A company in Castleisland, County Kerry, is illustrating what can be done. The cost of examination papers has been drastically reduced and the company is now getting into the wholesale book market. The Department should move with speed to give people a break. What is happening with school books at the moment is a rip-off.

I thank the witnesses for identifying the issue of school clothes. Why should someone have to go to a specialist shop dealing with the brand uniform when the retail units provide good employment and will provide the same quality? Perhaps the school badge should be supplied by the school, and that should be fitted-----

We have the recommendations so I would prefer if we move on to questions for the witnesses.

Naturally, I believe that family income supplement should be used for the back-to-school allowance and footwear allowance, and I applaud Barnardos for coming up with that suggestion.

There is a mix of questions and comments for the witnesses.

Mr. Fergus Finlay

I completely agree with Deputy Ó Ríordáin's comments on literary strategy, the empowerment of parents and so on. Sometimes it is taken as criticism of parents if I say that 90% of the issues we deal with relate to parenting. I do not mean it that way. I have met thousands of parents in the last five years. I have yet to meet a parent who did not love their children, though I have met many parents whose own circumstances, and perhaps their history and background, have got in the way of effective parenting. It is an unwritten rule that we never try to work with a child without also working with the parents.

There is no doubt that a big win for us is when a child who was coming to school hungry is now coming to school to play. That can involve much painstaking work on issues such as when parents get up, how they get up, what they have in the cupboard, the routines they get into in the early morning and so on. These are things that many parents take for granted, but if parents' lives are out of control for a whole variety of reasons - we all know the reasons - then those little things can be almost insurmountable.

I agree with Deputy Halligan about poverty being a prime cause but I do not believe it is possible to ignore the fact that the single most important influence in any child's life is the child's parent. There are many thousands of parents in Ireland who struggle and cope with poverty and yet their children bear all the hallmarks of children who are well parented, well loved and so on. Poverty is not in and of itself a recipe for a bad start to childhood. It is that mix of poverty, disadvantage in the community and dysfunction within the family that does the damage. There is no easy solution to that.

The role the education system can play remains crucial. If I may be impertinent, I would like to suggest to committee members that they bring in Mr. James Heckman, who is an American Nobel Prize winning economist and who works part of the year in UCD. I must warn members that a typical PowerPoint presentation has about 600 slides and they will wish they had brought sandwiches, but in fairness to him, he goes through them fairly quickly. He has developed something known as the Heckman curve which demonstrates, on the basis of every available study in the world, the value of investing in a child's early years and almost the waste of investing in what he calls remedial education.

Mr. Heckman is a Nobel prizing winning economist who asks people not to talk to him about justice, equity or quality, but about economics. He claims to be a hard-nosed economist who cannot understand why governments invest so much in third level and so little in the first two or three years of a child's life and so little in parenting support. I would suggest to the committee members, if it is not considered an impertinence, that they bring him in here with his 600 slides. He can be put under the Chairman's rules about it.

We will find a way to facilitate that.

Mr. Fergus Finlay

I apologise, but I cannot remember who asked whether the back-to-school clothing and footwear allowance should be administered through schools as opposed to the present system. There is a logic to that. At the moment, we have a system which pays out in respect of 300,000 children and there is a logic in having a system instead paid out in respect of 3,000 schools. The management and focus of the system could potentially be better. It would depend on a degree of dialogue with school principals in the first instance and with other stakeholders in this area. We have already advocated to the Minister of Education and Skills and to the Minister for Social Protection that this should be examined. At the moment, we are spending almost €80 million on supporting children to start school just through books and clothing. There is no evidence of any value for it and there is no evidence that it is focused on where it can do the most good.

If this were operated through the school system, the one problem that would concern us is that of stigmatisation, although I am sure that can be addressed. Nobody wants any child turning up at an office in a school saying they cannot afford books and being singled out on that basis. Having said that, there would be great merit in having detailed consideration given to that kind of transformation of the system.

We would agree with many of the other general points made. The link between poverty and income support is profound, but somehow or other, we have to address along with that the issue of supporting parents. Somehow or other we have to address, side by side with that, the issue of supporting parents. I know from direct experience - and I invite any member of the committee to come to any Barnados project any time they wish - that Barnados projects, particularly the early years projects, are busy, buzzing places that sometimes look as if there is controlled chaos, where two, three, four and five year old kids are very busy going about their day's work. There is, however, a moment when everything falls silent. That is when a member of staff has the kids gathered around her or him and is reading a story. I am sure it is not universally true, but it is very close to being so, that this is the only story those children have ever been read. The first time they sit down on the floor of a Barnados project and a staff member opens a book and starts to read a story is often the first time in the life of a three year old that this has ever happened.

I was in one of our projects recently when the children decided they wanted to sing a song when I was leaving, and they sang "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star". Two of the kids, four year old boys, did not know the words. That is not a comment on the education system, but on how the education system over successive generations has neglected parents who now find themselves ill-equipped and unable to do the basics. We must get the mix of parenting and education right.

I recognise that an Oireachtas committee can do nothing to change the world with regard to parenting. It is a parent-by-parent and person-by-person job, which must be done. Nevertheless, if this committee were urging Government to make sure that the start a child gets in education is the most beneficial it can be, it would be doing a profoundly important job for society and for the economy.

Ms June Tinsley

I would like to add to some of the comments raised by various members. With regard to the 90,000 children who are living in consistent poverty, we strongly recognise that any further cuts to social welfare would have a catastrophic effect on those children and families, because they are already on the absolute breadline and in poverty. We firmly believe that the solution to poverty is not just income. It must come from services, and that means investment in health, education, housing and across the board. There must also be a balance between universal and targeted supports to meet the acute needs of those families.

When we did the back-to-school survey this year, many parents wrote to us expressing frustration that the back-to-school clothing and footwear allowance was not reflective of the true cost but saying the contribution certainly helped. They highlighted the fact that there are such strict criteria for qualification. Many of those on low incomes, just above the social welfare rates, are not eligible for the allowance. This re-emphasises the point that low-income families are not eligible for the cash but would be able to benefit from a national schoolbook rental scheme, if one existed. This would lessen the load on parents.

I agree with the Deputy's comment about school uniforms. Parents repeatedly express frustration at having to buy uniforms in shops that have a monopoly on the provision of uniforms for specific schools, as opposed to being able to buy jumpers in other retail stores at a fraction of the cost and have the crest ironed or sewn on. That should be an option.

Ireland certainly has a high teacher-pupil ratio by European standards. This is an area of concern. I agree with the comment about public libraries being under-utilised. They are a crucial vehicle for engaging adults and parents who have literacy issues in improving their own literacy and subsequently engaging with their children. I hope that could be explored even further.

This is an education committee and I have never been educated as much as I have been today by Mr. Finlay and Ms Tinsley. I thank them very much. I have learned a huge amount and I could listen to them all day long.

One of my questions has been answered already. It was how the amount of money we put into education compares with that of other countries. The figure that startled me was that while we are, in general, in keeping with the OECD average we are at the very bottom with regard to pre-school education. I had not known that figure and I did not realise it was so different from the OECD average. Is it the case that one third of those who are left behind are from disadvantaged areas or that one third of students in disadvantaged areas do not learn to read and write and are left behind?

I would like to query the witnesses on this question of being left behind. I had the experience of being chairman of the leaving certificate applied for five years. I learned that those who had been left behind early on remained behind the whole way but that if, at 15 or 16 years of age, they somehow could be given confidence in what they were good at they suddenly gained confidence and were capable of doing other things as well. Can the teaching system be changed without huge sums of money, because it is unlikely that the taxpayer can pump extra sums of money into education? Are there things that can be done without spending much more money?

Let me take two instances. One is the Michel Thomas method of teaching languages. I am fascinated by it although I only learned about it in the last year or so. It is quite commonplace in France and very commonplace in England. The method involves no homework, books or learning by rote. It is like when we used to go the Gaeltacht and come back quite fluent as Gaeilge. We did not do it through books but through chat, fun, céilithe and the sort of things our witnesses are talking about. There are systems like that. The other instance is that of Mr. Jerry Kennelly in Kerry. I was interested to hear Deputy Tom Fleming talk about Kerry. Mr. Jerry Kennelly was wealthy enough to put his own money into a voluntary system that had 660 students learning entrepreneurship on what is called a Blue Sky day in Tralee a few weeks ago. It was fascinating to see what can be done without necessarily spending much more money.

I wonder are there systems that we can change, because it is unlikely we are going to get the taxpayer to pay much more money to invest, even though our witnesses have made a huge case for investing in education. Are there things we can do by changing the system?

I thank Mr. Finlay and Ms Tinsley for their presentation. I apologise for the fact that I was a little delayed getting here, but I caught most of their opening remarks on the monitor in the office.

I have much respect for Barnados because apart from its advocacy work it is also involved on the ground in some of the most disadvantaged areas and our witnesses bring a real understanding of people's actual problems and not simply of statistics. I agree with their recommendations regarding the National Educational Welfare Board, NEWB, the book rental scheme and the need to focus on high quality early education. I also agree with the remarks about petty cash being saved through cutbacks that specifically affect schemes that are targeted at children in disadvantaged schools, Travellers and those with language support needs. Our own party, when in government, was wrong to start those cuts. They were incredibly ill-advised and the current Government, in continuing them and deepening them in some areas, is making a huge mistake. I have no difficulty saying that Fianna Fáil and our partners were totally wrong to start those cuts. They can be reversed and that should be done. The money being saved is a pittance, compared with the long-term economic and social cost.

Like Senator Quinn, I would be interested to hear if there are opportunities to get better results from existing resources. If there were extra resources there is general agreement among the committee that they should go to the pre-school area, and not simply to pre-school child care but to high quality education for young children. Of course, we must accept that resources will be difficult to find for the next three years.

I agree with the remarks made by some members about educational disadvantage. It is often the case in debates about educational disadvantage that the focus is directed at what schools can do to address the fact that people are struggling. Reports about literacy and other educational difficulties always seem to point at the failure of schools and suggest that more resources will fix the problem. As Mr. Finlay correctly pointed out, this is half the solution because teachers do amazing work in some of the most disadvantaged schools. A significant number of extra supports were put in place over the past ten years under the DEIS programme. However, a child is only in school for a certain period during the day and if he or she is not receiving encouragement and support at home, albeit, as Mr. Finlay said, because parents want to do their best for their children whom they love dearly but they do not know how to go about it, then I do not think we will ever be truly successful in tackling so-called educational disadvantage. Worse, children from at-risk families are falling through the cracks because of lack of access to a social worker and to basic health care programmes. I note that Barnardos has highlighted this issue successfully.

I refer to excellent pilot programmes which were mentioned by Deputy Ó Riordáin, such as Young Ballymun. An excellent initiative was set up in Cherry Orchard a number of years ago and a new school was built there by the previous Government in order to pilot the provision of educational facilities, social workers and HSE workers all available in one location so that a child would receive integrated support from all the basic services. If by bringing those services together and using the existing resources, can a better service be delivered for the child as opposed to having three separate agencies looking for the children who need support? It would seem the best option would be to have all the services in one place, in the school where the child spends time every day. I ask for Mr. Finlay's guidance as to how this can be rolled out across the country. It is all very well having individual pilot schemes all doing great work but how can practices be standardised?

I agree with the emphasis placed on the participation of parents. I have always thought it strange that of all the jobs a person does in life, that of being a parent will have the most lasting impact in many respects and most people have no training for it. This is not just the case with regard to parents from disadvantaged backgrounds or those who may not have a high level of education. Parents in general are often ill-equipped for the task but the problems are more acute when they themselves have educational difficulties. Should there be a need for all parents to attend some form of parenting course, for instance, at prenatal stage? Before I was married we had to do an Accord course for two days and look where that got me. What is Barnardos attitude to the development of a similar course for parents? Child benefit payments are a significant investment so would it be an idea to arrange a course that all parents from all backgrounds would be required to attend for two days and which would provide them with a good grounding? Such a course could include nursery rhymes and basic books to those from disadvantaged areas.

I welcome the delegation and I commend in particular Fergus Finlay for his unending and provocative interest in this area.

The formal education system is only one part of a child's early formation. Some would say it is not even the most important part but rather the family is the key component of determining a child's progress. The family is a resource which in many instances is largely dormant. We need to see how we can challenge that resource for engagement across the general spectrum. There are cases of children having their breakfast in school while parents are still asleep although I acknowledge that poverty is a significant determining factor. However, the resource of the family has not been engaged to anything like its full potential. I ask about the challenge of literacy levels. Can the parental resource be more structured and made more available to address the significant deficit caused by low literacy levels?

I have been involved with a school in my area since its beginning, St. Ultan's in Cherry Orchard, which is an amazing school in many respects. They talk in that school about the language of music. They talk about the power of teaching music and its value in provoking children to engage and this engagement spreads out and animates the entire curriculum so that children and parents who engage through that medium are more excited about engaging in perhaps more monotonous things such as some aspects of literacy. I would like to hear the views of the delegation on music and these other areas of the curriculum and their dynamic for changing the learning context and environment through which literacy then becomes less daunting, less of a barrier, in that children are excited about engaging with and tapping into aspects of their own personalities. It may make the difference between them engaging across the entire spectrum of the curriculum or opting out and becoming apathetic about literacy and learning. We need to challenge all the elements of the child and this is done very poorly, in general terms, particularly in working-class areas.

Mr. Fergus Finlay

Senator Quinn made the point about investment in early years education in Ireland. It is important to remember that we did not do child care at all in Ireland until relatively recently. We started doing child care for a particular reason because we wanted to get as many women as possible back into the workforce. All our first attempts at developing child care in Ireland had nothing to do with children and the needs of children; it was to do with the needs of mothers going back to work. We restructured our tax system and we did all sorts of things to incentivise as many women as possible to participate in the workforce and ever since then, we have been playing catch-up. We have been trying to devise, on the hoof, as it were, a system of preschool education which started from a totally different focus. It did not start from the needs of children and therefore the issue of quality was never an issue. Affordability and accessibility were issues from the very beginning but the issue of quality is only latterly become an issue.

One of the fundamental problems of the system is that it did not start out as being directed at the needs of children. Senator Quinn asked about the figures for children leaving school unable to read or write. The statistics gathered by Barnardos and by Trinity College show that one in three children from disadvantaged communities still leave school unable to read or write. The Senator's point about the experience of the applied leaving certificate is exactly relevant and valid. Children who fall behind in their first year never catch up. Barnardos carried out a study last year in association with the ESRI. It discovered that if there is a two-grade gap in terms of reading and numeracy at age eight or nine and that two-grade gap is still there at age 16 and the remedial efforts really do not work.

As to what we can do with little or no resources, there are buckets of things we can do. Barnardos is currently investing its own resources, with a high degree of philanthropic support, in the development of two programmes, one of which we call Wizards of Words, or WOW. This programme pairs volunteers of a particular age - under equality legislation one is not supposed to say what is the age - but I am qualified to volunteer and I am 61. Volunteers with a lot of life experience are paired on a one-to-one basis with children who have lost confidence in their ability to read. These are children between the ages of six and nine. For example, it was found that this programme has had a stunning effect on the volunteers.

One of the discoveries we have made is that, for many children, there is no organic problem in regard to reading. In other words, they have no specific reading difficulties, intellectual disabilities or anything like that. Rather, they come from a background which does not instil confidence in reading and they have consequently lost confidence and fallen behind. However, they catch up quite quickly.

Mr. Fergus Finlay

We are piloting that scheme in several schools for the purposes of evaluating it. We are conducting what is called a randomised control trial - I wish I could find somebody to invest in randomised control trials, but I have not thus far succeeded - with a view to demonstrating, hopefully, that it works in breaking the cycle for these children. It costs nothing. Ultimately, we are seeking to design a system which would be available on the basis of a decent model, decent manual and some degree of support and training to every school in Ireland. Another discovery we have made is that not only do the children begin to catch up quickly but there is enormous improvement as a consequence in such issues as classroom behaviour. Children who enjoy reading and are engaged in class are not afraid to be in the classroom.

The other programme we are piloting, which we began only this year, is called Roots of Empathy. Again, it costs little or nothing to run. The programme was pioneered in Canada and has been tried and tested in many parts of the world. It is of universal application but we have launched it in some of the disadvantaged communities in which we work. It has been demonstrated to have extraordinary effects on the capacity of children to show more empathy to each other. This leads to a decrease in bullying, an increase in participation levels, improved classroom behaviour and so on. We have offered the Minister and the Department - and would be happy to offer anybody else - a demonstration of the programme. Both of these programmes are examples of initiatives which cost very little but can have very significant effects. There is no basis on which to claim that because we are broke we cannot invest in children.

Senator Averil Power referred to the possibility of linking child benefit with parenting programmes and so on. I would love to arrive at a point where every parent would have a certificate indicating their qualification to parent. My father used to say that parenting was the hardest job he had ever done and the only one for which he never had to sit a test. As a father of four, I understand that only too well. However, I would never wish to reach a point of threatening or punishing parents.

If we are serious about progress in this area, an issue we should look at is the range of services already in place in the community which are completely under-utilised. For example, we have a large number of community welfare officers and public health nurses. The latter are in a position to serve as the best early warning system any country could ever have on account of their statutory obligation to visit every child in their area five times in the first two years of the child's life. On the basis of their engagement with parents and children, we ought to know a great deal about the needs of young children, the interventions that may be necessary and the parents who struggle from the beginning. Public health nurses are wonderful professionals. However, all of the information they gather is kept under their stairs, in their office or in the boot of their car, simply because there is no mechanism for sharing it. This astonishing resource is not merely under-utilised; it is entirely unused. If I were linking parenting programmes or courses to anything, I would link them to that type of early warning capacity. Specifically, I would equip the public health nursing profession to inform parents of the options available to them and, thus, to facilitate them in achieving a more empowered type of parenting.

Reference was made to the work that is going on throughout the State, including in Ballymun and Darndale, for example. That ongoing work is being done on a learning and experimental basis by the voluntary and community sector, with the support, primarily, of Atlantic Philanthropies and the One Foundation, as opposed to the support of the Government, although there is some Government support. Much of that work is reaching the stage where we can offer answers to questions like Deputy Michael Conaghan's regarding the role of creativity, music and self-expression in schools, because there are studies going on in that field. That effort is being gathered together in Darndale, Ballyfermot, Ballymun and elsewhere, in a type of loose grouping called the Prevention and Early Intervention Network. I am sure its representatives would be pleased to present to the committee in order to demonstrate the broad range of preventative measures being studied and tried out.

To answer Deputy Conaghan's question, our view is that the importance of all forms of creativity, particularly in early years education, is phenomenally high. The memory we all have of turning up terrified on our first day at school will never be mirrored in a preschool. Every child arrives in preschool-----

I apologise for interrupting Mr. Finlay. The Senators who are leaving are obliged to attend a vote in the House.

Mr. Fergus Finlay

Every child arrives in preschool wide-eyed with excitement. It is a question of building on that. I have high hopes, now that Ireland has elected a poet President who has a very strong commitment to culture and creativity, that we can interest him in the role he can play in preschool education.

Ms June Tinsley

Senator Feargal Quinn referred to what we can do within current resources. We are great in this country at devising strategies but not so great when it comes to implementation. Implementing the new national literacy strategy will have an appreciable impact as the amount of time devoted to literacy in the classroom increases. In addition, the workforce development plan for the preschool sector is already in place but is not being fully rolled out. Likewise, the quality and curriculum frameworks are published but not fully rolled out.

Concerns were expressed that children are falling through the cracks. It is our hope that under the new Department of Children and Youth Affairs, the child and family support service will serve to join up the dots. Currently, different aspects of children's welfare are dealt with by different Departments. A more unified approach will be more effective for the families with whom we are working.

The delegates mentioned the crudeness of cuts to child benefit. We are all agreed that such cuts affect those at the bottom most of all. Have the delegates any feedback from colleagues in the United Kingdom as to how the system there is working? That might be helpful in terms of seeking a more cost effective method of supporting families.

I thank the delegates for mentioning Jim Heckman. I was going to inquire about the best source of information in regard to the lack of investment at preschool level and the effects on literacy and numeracy. It would be helpful if we were to invite Mr. Heckman to a meeting of the committee.

I spent time some years ago engaged in resource teaching with Traveller children. It was shocking to discover such an appallingly low level of literacy in children of nine, ten and 11 years of age. I made progress from time to time with various children. However, the major difficulty I faced was that on Tuesday and Wednesday I might make great progress with a little boy and then he would not be present on Thursday, Friday or the following Monday. That can be soul destroying because we would be back to square one when he reappeared perhaps two weeks later. Is there a need to do more away from the formal education system and in a community setting in order that we might help children from disadvantaged backgrounds who simply are not attending school?

Would trained primary school teachers really be required in order to implement a curriculum at preschool level or would those who already work in the early childhood care sector be able to do so? I accept that this is a hypothetical question because there is no curriculum for preschool. However, I would appreciate Mr. Finlay's input in respect of it.

I thank Mr. Finlay and Ms Tinsley for their presentation. Rather than posing questions, I wish to make a number of comments. I recall reading an article by Fr. Peter McVerry many years ago - it was actually published in 1986 but I would have been too young to read it at that stage - in which he stated that society is run by the privileged for the benefit of the privileged and that everyone except those who are privileged is aware of this. The argument he put forward has resonated with me ever since I read the article and not much has changed in the interim which would make me change my way of thinking. The reality is that successive Governments - including those of which my party was a part - failed to make a sufficient investment in education. As a result, we have always been obliged to play catch-up in respect of educational provision. One need only consider the OECD reports to which our guests referred earlier, particularly as they relate to child care. It is a crying shame that we did not use the money that was available to us in the recent past wisely in order to make some of the changes which could have been made.

The work done by Barnardos gives me cause to engage in a reality check. That work is, as much as possible, evidence-based in nature and it helps to transform both people's lives and their communities. The difficulty I have in respect of this matter is that if I am still a Member of the Houses in five years' time, I am sure our guests or whoever succeeds them will be sitting opposite me at that stage and we will be discussing other things which could be changed. I am sure everybody involved at that point will, as is the case today, be asking questions and talking with great enthusiasm about wanting to make a difference. Many of the decisions that tend to be made are both short term and short sighted in nature. That is something which we, as public representatives, must seek to change. There is no long-term, cross-party strategy to deal with education provision which successive Governments could implement. The position chops and changes from one Government to the next. It is no wonder, therefore, that we have not made much progress in respect of people who live in disadvantaged areas or families who are disadvantaged, dysfunctional, etc.

It am not happy making these comments. Barnardos and others do very good work and sometimes they seek what are only minuscule amounts of money in order to make a change or make a difference. Regardless of whether it is positive in nature, national policy is going to fail those to whom our guests referred earlier unless there is a commitment to engage in a broader review of education and child care provision in the long term. Any policy must be implemented by successive Governments.

I am delighted that Mr. Finlay and Ms Tinsley are present. As already stated, however, it is a crying shame that they or someone else representing their organisation will be before this committee five years from now discussing some of the issues to which reference has been made today because action was not taken in respect of them.

I welcome Mr. Finlay and Ms Tinsley. As Deputy Lyons stated, people like them and the organisation they represent lead public representatives to engage in a reality check. We need to be informed about what is happening by them, the teachers' unions and those involved in the community and voluntary sector. We meet people such as our guests on a daily basis and they oblige us to face reality.

The basic fact that Mr. Finlay and Ms Tinsley have been communicating at this meeting is that there should be no further cuts in child benefit. A recent UNICEF document, Report Card 9: The Children Left Behind, lists Ireland in 47th place - or second last - on a table of inequality relating to the world's richest countries. That is a terrible indictment of this country, particularly when one considers that we have only just passed through the so-called Celtic tiger era. I agree that there should be no further cuts in child benefit. Jobs are not going to be created in the next one to two years and, therefore, we must ensure that current child benefit rates will be protected and that there will be no further cuts to the education system because these will affect the most vulnerable. Spending in respect of education has already been cut to the bone.

I wish to be as supportive as possible in the context of trying to promote the implementing of further literacy campaigns, etc., in our schools and also in people's homes. Mr. Finlay made a very good point, namely, that there are people in place - community welfare officers, public health nurses and those in the community and voluntary sector - who deal directly with people and communities on a daily basis. These individuals have access to the information required in respect of this matter but one thing we have always been bad at in this country is compiling information and using it to good effect. What is required is some entity or authority that would be able to collect this type of information from those to whom I refer.

Reference was made to families. Traditionally, parents would have educated their sons and daughters in respect of how to raise their own children. In the past, we lived in close-knit communities but that is no longer the case because people now live in apartments, gated communities, etc. As a result, the support system provided by grandparents to their children and grandchildren has completely disappeared. We have not, as a society, replaced this with structures to support people in the community. There are supports available but they are not being used in an effective way. We should be approaching community welfare officers, public health nurses and those in the community and voluntary sector in order to discover how we might proceed.

I have had a number of meetings in recent times with representatives from Addiction Response Crumlin who informed me that they cannot gain access to schools in order that they might talk to children about the dangers of drugs. They stated that they can only say a certain amount and are not allowed to go any further. As a result, they cannot really deal with the issue. Many of the children to whom they do speak are already in possession of information regarding drugs which is better than that which Addiction Response Crumlin's representatives can provide. Society is refusing to face reality and will not deal with the issues in respect of which action must be taken.

On empowering parents, as Mr. Finlay stated most people love their children. It is often the chaos in people's lives which denies them the opportunity to show their love for their children. With potential cuts relating to the community and voluntary sector on the horizon, I dread to think what will happen in the coming period. It is our responsibility, as public representatives, to ensure that funding relating to the most vulnerable in society will be ring-fenced. We are still discussing the prospect of not paying the wages of teachers who work in private schools. The €100 million which could be saved in this regard could be used in many ways in our communities. Public representatives have failed to deal with this matter up to now. It is up to us to ensure that action is taken.

Mr. Fergus Finlay

Ms Tinsley knows more about the UK child benefit system than I do and she will elaborate on the changes that have taken place there. We have informed the Minister for Social Protection that, as an organisation, we would be prepared to support and defend difficult decisions in respect of child benefit if they resulted in reform and a more targeted system. I have always believed in a universal form of child benefit. However, I made the point to another committee of the Houses that something went wrong somewhere along the line, particularly when child benefit began to be used as a mechanism for winning elections. Enormous increases in child benefit occurred in election years. Suddenly when the economy goes belly up, the cuts that take place in child benefit all represent a slice off the top with no protection for families who are utterly dependent on it. My personal view is that Ireland should have a universal system of child benefit, perhaps at a lower level than it is now in universal terms but with a very well targeted and focused add-on element to make a real change in the lives of families and children where it is needed. As unpopular and difficult as that would be, that is the kind of change we have to begin to talk about in Ireland.

In regard to qualifications in the area of early childhood care, at the risk of bringing the INTO down on my head, the last thing early years education needs is primary teachers. I am not saying that in a pejorative way about primary teachers but the last thing two and three years old need is to sit in neat rows in highly disciplined classrooms. Somebody once said that the serious work of a child is play. While we need trained and qualified people, we need them trained and qualified in understanding the needs of a two year old, and these are quite different from those of a five year old. I would be horrified at the thought of handing preschool over to the primary school system to be run that way.

Some of the other points that were made were general. Deputy Lyons made a rather pessimistic point. I am not a pessimist but there has been a change in recent years and this change has occurred in our sector. Four or five years ago in Barnardos we did our damnedest to respond to need wherever we found it, often on the hoof by devising or developing something that seemed to work. We changed our ethos completely and everybody who works in Barnardos now believes we have to respond to need and deliver results. The only way to deliver results is to search out and apply the best evidence and then to search out the best ways of implementing the best evidence and apply the best methods of implementation. I am not saying and I could not possibly claim that we are there yet, but if a committee like this one concentrated on assembling hard evidence of what works and what does not work, profound differences would begin to be made.

Many changes that have happened under successive Ministers with responsibility for children of a structural kind have been really useful. The fact that there is a Minister for Children, that there was an office for children, that there is an Ombudsman for Children and that there is investment in preschool education have all been positive developments and they are there to be built on. We do not necessarily need to despair because we do not have resources but we need to gather and use the evidence much better and be much more creative.

Does Ms Tinsley wish to make a final comment?

Ms June Tinsley

Yes. On the Deputy's question regarding child benefit in the UK, the mechanism there is different from our system. There is an early years infrastructure and child tax credit in place.

Mr. Fergus Finlay

There is also free medical care.

Ms June Tinsley

Yes. There is free medical care and the national school book rental scheme. Therefore, we are not comparing like with like. It has slashed the payment of child benefit to households and I understand the income threshold in this respect is above £45,000 sterling. A difficulty with this is that it is difficult to determine whether a household is headed by dual earners or by a lone parent. If there are dual earners, one parent's income might greatly exceed that threshold and the household would still be eligible for the benefit whereas a lone parent is parenting alone and has greater costs. Therefore, the benefit is not necessarily fully redistributed. For those who are on household incomes of, say, more than £46,000 sterling, they will not receive any benefit. This change may increase the likelihood of poverty among low to middle income earners. From an Irish perspective, our child benefit provision has to cover so much because we do not have the infrastructure of provision, health care and full educational systems in place. From our point of view, if there was to be a huge flat rate cut, it would be extremely unfair because we are asking child benefit provision to cover so much. Child benefit is €140 a month but child care costs work out at easily €800 a month. Therefore, child benefit payment is not reflective of child care costs. There are some concerns about the fairness and equitableness of the UK system of child benefit but it remains to be seen how it will work out.

I have to conclude the meeting now even though, as the professor would say, we could talk about this all day. The discussion has been very worthwhile for our committee and I am glad the witnesses came in today. I appreciate their coming in. There is a good deal of work for us to take out of what they have suggested. Having them in has given us a good focus. I am sorry they were not here a few months ago. We will take a great deal out of what they said. We might engage with them more often if that would be okay with them. We will give considerable time to discussing what they have said and picking out what is relevant and bringing some focus to it. Their advice to us was very clear in terms of what we have to do. On behalf of all the members, I thank them for their time and we will follow up on their suggestions.

The joint committee adjourned at noon until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 16 November 2011.
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