JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION debate

Unemployment and Youth Unemployment: Discussion (Resumed)

Chairman

I welcome Mr. John Stewart and Ms Bríd O'Brien of the Irish National Organisation of the Unemployed. I also welcome Mr. James Doorley and Ms Marie-Claire McAleer of the National Youth Council of Ireland.

Before commencing, I remind Members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. If witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I invite Mr. Stewart to commence his presentation, followed by Mr. Doorley.

Mr. John Stewart

I thank the Chairman and the committee for the invitation to the Irish National Organisation for the Unemployed to appear before the committee to discuss key priority issues in terms of unemployment, access to education and training and activation measures. My colleague, Ms Bríd O'Brien will take us through our submission.

Ms Bríd O’Brien

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee. As the committee is well aware, Ireland is in the middle of an unprecedented unemployment crisis. According to the latest quarterly national household survey, there are 302,000 people unemployed, of whom 60%, or more than 182,000 are long-term unemployed. The rise in long-term unemployment is particularly striking when for the same quarter in 2008 the rate was only 1.7% whereas now it is 7.6%. Of those who are long-term unemployed, the 25 to 44 age group faces the biggest issues of debt in terms of personal and mortgage debt.

In recent months the live register has fallen for a number of reasons. Unfortunately, it is not that everybody is finding a job; although some are, some are returning to education and training, some are emigrating and others are not making the transition from jokseeker's benefit to jobseeker's allowance. This was an issue the National Economic and Social Council took note of in its report on issues around unemployment and was the main reason for the fall in the live register at the time. People were not making the transfer from jobseeker's benefit to jobseeker's allowance. This has very serious implications for those unemployed people because it effectively means the supports available to unemployed people to get back to work are not available to them because they are not in receipt of a payment.

We have set out our submission in three parts, the areas which are the responsibility of the committee, jobs, social protection and education and have looked at developments in those areas, in particular, the action plan for jobs, Pathways to Work and the development of SOLAS and its implications for unemployed people. As the committee is aware we have seen an amazing reduction in employment in recent years from 2.15 million people in work in the third quarter of 2007 to 1.81 million in the latest quarterly report, a reduction of 16%. The labour force has reduced but not as dramatically by 6%. It is striking that the rate of job loss is slowing down. Finding replacement jobs will be a particular challenge facing Ireland. Within the Action Plan for Jobs 2012, launched in February 2012, a target has been set for an additional 100,000 people to be in employment by 2016. At one level that appears to be an ambitious target given where we are at and given where job creation is at, but at another level it is not sufficiently ambitious, given the scale of the unemployment crisis facing Ireland and the social and personal issues that arise from that unemployment.

We concur with the Taoiseach's comments on the importance of a job but we do not agree with the Government's claim that governments do not create jobs. The Government employs one in six people of those who are employed. It is clear many young people are well educated and are probably the best educated generation we have ever had and yet the obvious employer for them is the State itself. At at time of unemployment crisis, the State is pulling back from creating jobs and, therefore, unfortunately, many young people are emigrating. These young people are bringing their skills and abilities to other countries in the development of their societies and economies and public services.

An issue highlighted in the programme for Government and included in the action plan for jobs is the development of supports for micro enterprises and small business and the absorption of the city and county enterprise boards within the local authority structure. That was flagged in the programme for Government and is mentioned in the action plan for jobs, yet in terms of action and when it will happen, it appears that little will happen this year. We are concerned that in the interim that does not mean the unemployed who are trying to respond to their unemployment, through self employment, are not blocked off from supports. At a time of change it is critical to maintain supports and keep them in place.

We liaise with employers who are creating jobs. We track jobs announcements as well as redundancy announcements and get information out to employers on the PRSI exemption scheme about the Revenue job assist. The actions outlined in the action plan for jobs around those are welcome. It is critical that there is a good flow of information between service providers and unemployed persons and service providers and employers in order that people are matched up with the opportunities available. They are few and far between and it is critical that the administrative systems run as smoothly and as professionally as possible. In particular, Revenue job assist, can offer a win-win to the employer and the unemployed person, particularly the unemployed person with children.

Chapter 6 of the action plan for jobs deals with developing employment initiatives within the community. We were struck by the absence of the community and voluntary sector and community based projects as the focus is on private sector SMEs. We are keenly aware from our affiliates that community organisations play a significant role in local development and responding to local needs in a flexible and accessible manner. In the development of a community investment fund or supports for small and medium size enterprises it is important that the community and voluntary sector and community based initiatives and their work on the ground is supported. Similarly, the role of social enterprise is critical and it is welcome that the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation is identified as the lead player because it appears to be an issue that sometimes falls between the cracks, partly because the word "social" is in the title, and it is seen as somebody else's responsibility. It has been identified as an area where significant jobs could be created with the right supports. It is important to consider that issue and the whole area of micro enterprises in terms of supporting local communities to respond to both a lack of services in their areas and a key issue of lack of employment.

The role the Department of Social Protection plays in the lives of unemployed people is critical. There has been a significant change in that regard, in that the Department has absorbed FÁS employment and community services and the community welfare officers. The service is being redesigned and its title is the national employment and entitlement service. We are probably one of the few organisations that like the name. While we understand it will have a different title we would like one that indicates what it ought to do, such as employment and entitlement. It is important in redesigning the system and bringing together social welfare, employment services and community welfare services that at the heart of those developments is a culture of enablement that tries to provide a first class service to unemployed people and other social welfare recipients, ensuring people have access to their entitlements in a timely fashion and that they are fully informed of the employment, education and training options that will be available to them. Getting the design and delivery correct would generate more savings and lead to a more efficient and equitable system. Too often in the public area, social welfare reform is talked about only from the perspective of addressing fraud. Fraud, as most people understand the word, is a relatively small issue. The issues around control and misinformation are the bigger ones, particularly misinformation and misunderstanding. If the service was designed well and delivered well, that would address those issues.

That presents challenges for the Department because, on the one hand, it has a payment and control role and, on the other, it is moving into areas where it will have an enabling role. Those roles do not necessarily sit together and the Department could move in opposing directions. We feel it is particularly important that the Department gets it right and that it engages with unemployed people, provides a good service to them and ensures front line staff have the information, skills and knowledge to deliver the service.

The Pathways to Work document refers to improvements in the system in the future and trying to ensure long-term unemployment does not emerge as an issue but, as we are all keenly aware, this issue is with us. The document targets a reduction in long-term unemployment of 75,000 by 2015. That means 75% of new jobs will need to go to the long-term unemployed, otherwise they will be on a merry-go-round going out one door and in the other and it will be questionable to consider them to be off the live register. It is an ambitious target even if efforts are made to ensure the long-term unemployed have access to these jobs and to the right education and training courses to fill them. Given where job creation is at and the number of long-term unemployed currently, which will continue to increase, even if the overall number on the live register is steadying on a monthly basis, that is a huge challenge for all of us. It is critical that the culture within the system is right, the system itself is right and good relationships are developed with employers, SOLAS, the HEA and anybody else who can play a role in job creation, education and training delivery and supporting people to get back to work.

Page 9 of the Pathways to Work document refers to the taxpayer as if unemployed people are not taxpayers. They pay VAT and most of them paid income tax when they were employed and they look forward to doing so again. It is important that we do not refer to taxpayers as if they are floating in limbo when they may be unemployed and struggling with debt repayments.

The issue of unemployed people who were self-employed needs to be addressed. In future, the self-employed need to be given the choice to be part of the PRSI system. Their only access currently is via their pension. The advisory group on tax and social welfare was due to examine this issue and we regret that, according to the action plan on jobs, that has slipped to the fourth quarter of this year, even though the call for submissions was made last November. We are concerned about that. In the interim, that will do little for those who were self-employed and are now unemployed and trying to access supports. They often find themselves in the same position as those who failed to make the transition from JB to JA.

The unemployed can access a range of employment programmes. We are conscious on the basis of representations from our members and affiliated organisations that community employment, CE, plays a key role in many local communities to underpin the delivery of badly needed services and the provision of badly needed jobs. In many communities, CE is a key resource to employ people. However, better links are needed to broader employment support services in order that people can progress better from CE. CE has been successful in this regard where it is specific to a sector. For example, training has been an integral part of child care and people have progressed to jobs, particularly in the community and voluntary sector. This, however, also raises the challenge of getting the wider labour market to appreciate the work done on CE schemes. The cuts to the training grants on CE will have a negative impact on success and progression.

JobBridge has provided invaluable experience for young people seeking to find work and older unemployed people looking to change direction. However, serious concerns have been raised with us about the number of minimum wage positions on JobBridge which should be filled as jobs and not internships and the number of senior positions being advertised. Why would a company senior position be filled by an intern? We have also had feedback from well qualified unemployed people who are concerned at the number of jobs in their sector being advertised under JobBridge, as they feel that is curtailing their ability to return to paid employment.

The maintenance of the basic rate is critical and the wider supports are also critical to enable people to manage and to return to work.

A number of issues arise regarding education, given where the better paid jobs are likely to be generated. It is a challenge to ensure sufficient provision for quality education and training that will support unemployed people to fill positions and get back to work. Matching skills has been a challenge and given there are skills shortages in some areas in the midst of an unemployment crisis, this is criminal.

The knowledge of front line staff in the NEES and SOLAS will be critical in order that they can give people good advice and guidance. This is particularly the case for older unemployed people. Younger people may go in one direction but they can change direction. However, as one gets older, one has fewer options in that regard. That needs to be borne in mind. It is critical that the design and delivery of education and training programmes is right and that front line staff are aware of them. For example, we liaised with the HEA regarding the Springboard initiative but a HEA staff member rang a social welfare local office and when he said he was ringing about the initiative, the welfare official replied that he had never heard of it and put the telephone down. If that is the response one official is getting from another, then what kind of response is an unemployed person getting? If an unemployed person says he heard something about the initiative on the radio, he might be told it does not exist. Information flow to front line staff with whom the unemployed engage is important. These staff need to know and if they do not know, it will be difficult for claimants to hear about and avail of time-limited initiatives such as Springboard.

At a time of austerity, reform is being equated with retraction and cutbacks. We need reform and services need to be delivered in a more effective and efficient manner but we also need to not lose sight of the fact that investment in Ireland's tomorrow is critical. Education will play a key role. If the Government is serious about the knowledge economy, it must invest and deliver on education at all levels but, in particular, through further and higher education as people return to education to reskill. We have skills gaps currently and we must fill those positions. That will require investment and delivering for unemployed people.

Mr. James Doorley

On behalf of the National Youth Council of Ireland, NYCI, I welcome the opportunity to discussion the important issue of youth unemployment. I will share time with my colleague, Ms Marie-Claire McAleer. The NYCI is a representative body for more than 50 national voluntary youth organisations which work with children and young people in every city, town and village in the State. Our vision is one where young people are empowered to develop the skills and confidence to fully participate as citizens in an inclusive society. We function to represent the interests of young people and voluntary youth organisations and we have been recognised as a social partner since 1986.

Unemployment is our greatest economic and social challenge and it requires the mobilisation of all in society to address it. Up to three or four years ago, those of us working in the youth sector thought we would never have to come back to this topic. We were of the view that it had been dealt with in the 1980s and 1990s. It goes without saying that the ultimate solution to the problem in this regard is the creation of jobs and the provision of decent opportunities for young people. However, in order to foster the conditions for economic growth and the creation of employment, there will be a need to reinvigorate the domestic economy. A number of actions have been taken by the Government in this regard including, as Ms O'Brien stated, publication of the policy statement, Pathways to Work, and also the action plan for jobs. We are aware, however, that there is no magic wand and that, unfortunately, we are not going to be in a position to create the number of jobs that young people will require during the next few years.

We were with a group of young people of 15 and 16 years of age and they informed us that their career guidance teachers were advising that they should consider focusing on areas in which jobs are available abroad. In other words, they are advocating emigration as a career choice.

There are many issues we would like to discuss with the committee but I am conscious of the time constraints involved. Members will have received a copy of our policy paper, Creating a Future for Young Jobseekers. In that context, some of the issues on which we wish to focus relate to employment counselling, the provision of education and training, upskilling, work experience and internship. JobBridge is another matter to which we would like to refer. At this point, I will ask my colleague, Ms Marie-Claire McAleer, to comment on the aspects of our work which relate to employment counselling and training.

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer

I am going to refer to some of the research we have conducted and to the consultations in which we have engaged in the past year with young jobseekers. We published some qualitative research last year on the experience of young jobseekers and their interaction and engagement with key State support services. The research to which I refer provided a very sobering and stark picture of what it actually means to be a young unemployed person living in Ireland. We documented extraordinary accounts of resilience, determination and ambition many of the young people involved exhibited in their search for work. A key message which emerged from our research is that not all of the experiences were negative. There were some very positive stories and evidence of good practice happening throughout the country. For the most part, however, there were inconsistencies in terms of the quality, efficiency and effectiveness of both the public employment service and the education and training provided to young unemployed people living in Ireland.

I am not going to focus on our position paper because I am aware that copies of it have been circulated to members. I will, however, briefly hone in on some of the key issues which emerged from our research and which I believe would be of interest to the committee. There are examples of good support and excellent service in the research but overall there was an amount of dissatisfaction. For example, only 32% of young jobseekers expressed a level of satisfaction with the service when we interviewed them. The young people in question find the decision-making process very slow and stated that there are poor levels of guidance, a lack of appropriate opportunities, not enough time is dedicated to clients and a lack of privacy. They also indicated that there is a lack of empathy exercised by the staff who were dealing with them. Many jobseekers stated that they were obliged to supply the same information on numerous occasions and that there was little co-ordination between services.

In the main, the experience of unemployment was quite negative for those interviewed. They reported negative feelings, low self-esteem, low morale, a feeling of hopelessness and a lack of choice. The participants acknowledged that the staff who dealt with them were under huge pressure as a result of staff shortages and a lack of capacity to meet demand. Many who had never previously engaged with State support services found the system to be extremely perplexing and felt quite disillusioned and demoralised by their experience. Again, they indicated that jobseeking is both tough and demanding. They started out with great hope and expectation but became very demoralised after a few months of looking for work. They emphasised the fact that they lacked the skills and know-how to secure employment.

Our study highlights the financial hardships many of these young people are obliged to endure. For example, they must borrow money from their parents in order to afford basic necessities. Some 65% of them strongly agreed that unemployment had a negative effect on their well-being and caused tensions with those in their personal lives, namely, family members, friends and partners. These findings demonstrate that the services which should be in place during times of recession in order to support young jobseekers are not actually there. While progress has been made - which is something we welcome - there is a need for more rapid progress.

I will focus on the National Employment and Entitlements Service, the establishment of which we welcome. We also welcome the publication of the Pathways to Work policy statement. We are heartened by the publication of a very detailed project plan for the new agency. In our view, this is the clearest sign that lessons have been learned from previous experiences. We acknowledge the proposed plans, which take on board many of the recommendations contained in the report we published last year. The establishment of one-stop-shops for jobseekers can assist them in obtaining employment and accessing further educational support. The means to check welfare eligibility is long overdue. We cannot emphasise enough how important is the need for greater urgency in rolling out these reforms. Jobseekers cannot wait for a further two to three years for these changes to be implemented. They need to be brought forward quickly.

We acknowledge the reforms taking place in the area of education and training and the establishment of SOLAS. At present, however, provision in this area is disjointed in nature and it is difficult for jobseekers to navigate the system. It is vital that we should reshape the system in order to make it learner-centred and coherent. We acknowledge that many jobseekers receive good quality training and education. However, we often receive feedback from young jobseekers about the lack of education and training places or to the effect that the training provided was neither useful nor appropriate. In addition, jobseekers are at risk of losing welfare if they do not accept a reasonable offer of education or training. Unfortunately, many of them accept places on courses - in order to retain their payments - even if they believe such courses will be of little benefit to them. This is a waste of resources and a waste of their time.

It is our view that SOLAS should provide jobseekers with a suite of education and training options, ranging from basic supports, such as those relating to literacy and numeracy, to more advanced training of IT, where vacancies exist. An impact assessment and evaluation should be carried out in respect of all courses. Significant resources are being spent so it is vital that they should make a real difference in supporting jobseekers and improving their changes of being employed. SOLAS should work more closely with employers at local and regional level to ensure that potential and future employment opportunities will be supported through education and training. A "reasons why" document, setting out the rationale for particular proposals to jobseekers, is very important and should be drawn up. There is a need to examine initiatives in other jurisdictions such as the individual reintegration agreements which obtain in the Netherlands, whereby the jobseeker has an input into the decision making and is allocated a budget, which he or she co-manages, their education and training. The latter gives jobseekers a stake in the process, which is key.

I will now hand over to Mr. James Doorley, who is going to talk about internships.

Mr. James Doorley

One of the biggest issues raised by young jobseekers during our consultations with them last year relates to the lack of work experience. Many felt - even those with significant qualifications - themselves to be at a major disadvantage because they did not have any work experience. Those interviewed see internships and work experience as important in terms of getting them onto the first rung on the ladder.

There are three reasons internships are important. First, they give young jobseekers the opportunity to gain employment and obtain experience. Second, those who obtain internships are able to network in employment situations and they get to meet more people. Many jobs are not advertised and are filled on an informal basis. I am aware of a number of young people who took up internships have obtained further employment, not with the organisation with which they served as interns but with other organisations. There is no conclusive evidence but some employers who, in the current environment, are very cautious with regard to taking on employees have informed us that because an intern made a good contribution, brought in business or whatever, he or she was kept on.

Over 6,400 jobseekers have begun internships under the JobBridge scheme, which only commenced last summer and which is, therefore, only in its early stages. We hope that a significant proportion of those who have started on the scheme will end up in employment. At European level, approximately 35% of those who take up internships gain employment within a year, either with the host company or with another firm. We know the scheme is in its early stages, but we certainly had some criticisms. Ms O'Brien has outlined some of the issues regarding internships. We were concerned that some employers did not understand what an internship was. An internship is not a job; it is primarily about giving the jobseeker, the intern, on-the-job work experience. The intern should not be in a management position or supervising others.

Our three recommendations when issues were raised about the internship scheme were that there should be greater scrutiny of internship opportunities advertised by employers, greater monitoring of the scheme and evaluation of the scheme once sufficient numbers had participated. We are glad all three proposals have been followed through. There is now much greater scrutiny of what is actually presented. Issues still arise and there is a whistleblower line in order that people, including potential interns or members of the public, can complain.

The Department of Social Protection has stepped up the number of monitoring visits to interns during their internships. It is welcome that the Government has announced an evaluation of the JobBridge scheme. That will start soon. It is vital that internships continue to be reviewed and monitored. We need to ensure young people who make up the majority of participants in the scheme are not exploited in the current environment. In an ideal world we would not need such a scheme in that young people would find a job. We have to account for the fact that an internship is the only option for many young people. It gives them a leg up the ladder or a foot in the door. The reality is that many feel really frustrated and locked out of the labour market. The scheme presents them with an opportunity to circulate and find a job. Ideally, in a revised scheme, employers could contribute. Many employers do want to support young people under the scheme, but, unfortunately, cannot do so. Perhaps there could be a pooling system under which employers could contribute centrally and the funding could be used to enhance the payments received by young people.

Let me refer briefly to the job guarantee which the committee has discussed at previous meetings. The proposal has merit and we advocated the adoption of a scheme in this regard in our position paper last year. A number of European countries have initiated schemes in this area to support young people and counter the trend of long-term unemployment. Unfortunately, the number of long-term unemployed has increased. At the end of last year there were approximately 16,000 young people under 25 years unemployed for one year more, which is a major worry.

We understand the welfare, labour market and employment schemes in various countries are different. It probably would not be wise for us to transplant suddenly to Ireland a scheme that works in another country. However, the Government should examine the feasibility of a youth guarantee. Essentially, a young person unemployed for six months or more should be guaranteed an education, training, work experience or employment place. It is a matter of the State supporting local authorities and non-profit organisations which engage with young people, as happens in the Netherlands.

Unemployment is our greatest socioeconomic ill and it cannot be solved by the Government alone. It is welcome that the committee is asking people from civil society to address the issue. On looking back at all the reports that the NYCI has published, we realise we cannot afford to repeat the mistakes of the 1980s and 1990s. In these decades we allowed hundreds of thousands to drift into long-term unemployment. The evidence of our work is that young people want to work, start a career and contribute to society. Unfortunately, many believe emigration is the only option because they feel trapped and that their lives are on hold in Ireland.

If we want to create jobs, we must engage with all sectors of society. Our message is that there are significant resources in place. It is really important that the money be spent properly. In the past training courses were sometimes run more for the trainer and training provider than the trainee. Some of the initiatives did not deliver great value for money from our perspective. There is much funding and much good work is being done, but we need to revise and reform. As my colleague Ms McAleer stated, there is a sense of urgency. We cannot wait. We are four years into the crisis and there are developments, but they are occurring at too slow a pace.

Chairman

I appreciate the written submissions and the presentations. They will be included in our overall study and the information will inform our report. We have time for questions and answers. Deputies John Lyons and Michael Conaghan are leaders with regard to the committee's report. I will, therefore, start with them, after which we will hear from Senator John Kelly and Deputy John Halligan.

Deputy John Lyons

I thank both groups for submitting their documentation. Mr. Doorley's was received yesterday and that of the INOU was received before that. When I was reading through the INOU's document, the sense of urgency stood out most. I was happy to see the INOU recommend the integration approach proposed in the action plan for jobs, whereby there are key objectives, a lead Department taking responsibility and a timeline for a response. I hope this feeds into the committee's report because it represents a measurable objective.

It was stated the action plan for jobs could be more ambitious. How could this be achieved? What could we include in our report to inform it?

Reference is made in the documentation to the need for front-line staff to be completely up-skilled in order that they will be in the best position to meet the needs of the unemployed. This is crucial. I do not have any factual information to back up my point, but, according to some people's experience, there is a shortfall in this regard, which scares me a lot.

When I was reading both documents, I was trying to imagine what it was like going into one of the local social welfare offices. What is it like when one is trying to find information? I would love to be in a position to know because I am sure the feeling differs, depending on one's experience, which is not acceptable. I completely support the recommendation that we ensure everybody's experience at a social welfare office is first-class and that people are offered all the information available according to their needs.

Urgency seems to be the theme of every presentation thus far. Every group which has appeared here in recent weeks has referred to it. Under the Pathways to Work programme, the roll-out of the one-stop shop concept is just not happening quickly enough. I understand the wheels of power are turning a little slower, but I would like them to speed up a little because there is a fear that, owing to a delay in rolling out some of the integrated services, we will miss people and more will become disaffected on foot of an increase above 16,000 in the number of young people unemployed or an increase above 183,000 in the number of long-term unemployed.

I congratulate the delegates. The main point I derived from the documentation was that there were many items that comprised the glue that made the system work properly. There are some good points and the things that can glue everything together are highlighted. The relevant tasks in this regard need to be performed. If they are not, the system proposed through the action plan for jobs and Pathways to Work will not work.

Will the delegates enlighten us on how we could create 100,000 jobs by 2016? Social Justice Ireland mentioned the possibility of a part-time job opportunity that could involve another 100,000 people in employment. As I am sure the delegates are familiar with this proposal, I will not labour the point. It is interesting because it involves the State and the community and voluntary sector.

I welcome the NYCI's support for the concept of a youth guarantee scheme. The reality is that if we do not do something, young people will experience what is experienced by the 25-34 age group, which must not be allowed. Greater urgency is required in dealing with the issue of youth unemployment because youths are just entering the jobs market and may not have many skills or, perhaps, knowledge of how to obtain a job.

Everybody who is unemployed feels demoralised. There is political discourse to the contrary. It was said last week that people must not want to work. However, most do want to work, which I am glad was mentioned today. Most people do want to work and I believe the State can play a part in employing people as well. Mr. Doorley stated employers should make a contribution to the JobBridge scheme to ensure higher payments to participants. I welcome that as the JobBridge scheme is being extended this week by a further 1,000 jobs. Of those who said they had a positive experience of the scheme, what were their positives?

I know there are several agencies which offer quality education and training for the long-term unemployed, one of which was before this committee, the Fast Track to Information Technology group, FIT. This has received funding from the education and training budget. Its courses are assessed every six weeks to ensure its curriculum is up to date. It also works with industry and has Siemens, Symantec and other IT companies on its board so it is very much at the coal-face of industry requirements. Whatever more comes out of this €20 million for labour activation measures, we must look to groups such as this which deliver quality education and training. We must ensure the training that will be rolled out will not be the same under another name.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

I welcome the two groups, the Irish National Organisation of the Unemployed, INOU, and the National Youth Council of Ireland, NYCI, and commend the valuable work they do.

The argument for strengthening community employment schemes in urban communities at a time when there is not enough urgency in tackling unemployment is unanswerable. It has a strong case. A concern was raised that the cut in the training grant may impede their development. The role the VECs now aspire to which could see them move into that vacuum could offset these concerns. The VECs have strong credibility in urban communities and significant experience over the past 80 years in working on training and by being the linchpin between training and employability.

The community employment schemes have a role as an anchor for a broader of social economy. We are poor on social economy in Ireland. I was delighted to see it in one of the documents presented today. This is one of the foundations on which we should build a better social economy. Ireland takes up the end of the queue in Europe in promoting social economy and giving it the esteem it deserves. I see the community employment scheme as a tried and trusted method which could act as a catalyst to broadening the social economy.

The ERASMUS programme was originally aimed at higher education but I see it has been broadened to encompass different levels even down to 15 and 16 year olds having access to it. Could this opening up of the scheme animate and give more vitality to youth employment activation measures? Perhaps such a dynamic can be brought into the youth guarantee which I hope the Government will implement.

Yes, but we are short of time. Will the Deputy please keep to today's topic?

Deputy John Halligan

I am keeping to today's topic. The Chairman spent five minutes interrupting me there and I am leaning to the questions I want to ask.

Has the INOU done an analysis of people on unemployment benefit? Has it assessed unemployment needs? What are its views on social welfare payments which are relevant to people unemployed? There are so many people unemployed across various areas who may not have heard of this organisation and may feel they have no one to represent them apart from individual politicians. With so many people unemployed, how does the INOU make itself relevant to them? Has it done a survey among the unemployed on how they feel they could be helped and how job creation could be brought on to the agenda?

Chairman

It is clear Deputy Halligan is not familiar with the organisation's work. I will let Ms O'Brien answer him soon. I call on Senator Kelly.

Deputy John Halligan

The Chairman is being unfair. I am entitled to ask a question of anyone who comes in here. I am familiar with the INOU but I just made the point that I had not heard of it in Waterford city.

Chairman

We chose the organisation because of its expertise in the area.

Senator John Kelly

I welcome the delegates and thank them for their presentation. I have always said we should make better use of our social welfare budget and look at it positively to create work rather than keeping people on the dole. I am well aware there are many initiatives in place to help employers employ people. Are we doing enough for employers? Can we do more for them, bearing in mind the cost of overheads employers have to meet? A particular bugbear of mine for a number of years is that if it costs €21,000 a year to keep somebody on social welfare, why are we not suggesting giving €10,000 of that to an employer to take the person off the dole? If we did that, given the magic figure of 100,000 jobs that we have mentioned we are trying to create, we would save €1.1 billion per year on the social welfare bill alone, plus it would generate extra revenue from tax, PRSI, universal social charge, etc. I would like Ms O'Brien's opinion on that.

Bearing in mind the community employment schemes Deputy Conaghan mentioned, is there an opportunity here for us to look seriously at the care of the elderly? Everyone knows that we have gone past discussing home help hours and we are down to home help minutes. One cannot get a home help because of the moratorium on recruitment. I look at it from the point of view that if we were to open up the community employment scheme to the home help service, we could create much needed jobs at an extra cost of €34 a week, which, in effect, would mean that per person we would be providing 20 hours home help at a cost of €1.70 an hour. I wonder has Ms O'Brien looked at that. I certainly have mentioned this to the Minister, Deputy Reilly. It may be something that should be progressed by other organisations as well.

Deputy Seán Crowe

The witnesses spoke of the survey on low self-esteem among the unemployed. Two weeks ago, the following quote from a newspaper was up on the wall in the social welfare office in Tallaght: "Twelve months jail for person caught working and claiming jobseeker's allowance at the same time." This newspaper quote was an official notice and there were a number of complaints about it. People genuinely looking for work are going in to sign on and this is the message they are getting. Aside from the difficulty with queues and the lack of information mentioned earlier, it sends out the wrong message. I wonder whether the witnesses have a view in that regard or have come across this in other social welfare offices. In this case, the young lad ended up pulling the poster off the wall, much to the delight of those queuing. I wrote to the Minister on the matter. It is merely an example. It sent the wrong signal to those young people who were queuing.

There is a drop in the figures for unemployment, and particularly youth unemployment, around the country and some of the experts put that down to emigration. In Tallaght and Clondalkin, for instance, the unemployment figures are not dropping. That must be down to the lack of skills of those in the area who will not get in to Australia because they do not have the necessary education. What extra resources need to be provided for young people in that situation? There are such blackspots of intergenerational unemployment around the country with young people leaving school early. Recently somebody attending the committee spoke of 1 million jobs available in Germany and at the same time on the education front we are doing away with the modern language initiative. We do not seem to be good at co-ordinating the available resources and planning for the future.

Other jurisdictions mentioned seem to be really good on youth unemployment. I note the Scottish example, particularly around apprentices. They set themselves a target and exceeded it. The Scottish Parliament put forward the targets and provided the other supports for the employers, but it also took on a role itself. As for local authorities in the State, my local authority in south Dublin took up the initiative of taking on the apprentices. It needs to be rolled out in other local authorities, but I would also argue that there is a role for the Office of Public Works and for other Government responses for young people who are caught in this limbo who cannot move on with their apprenticeships. Would they accept that is a good idea and have they any ideas in that regard?

Deputy Joan Collins

Following on what Deputy Crowe stated, I was interested in what Ms O'Brien said about the number of young people who are unemployed and the gap in matching the skills. I was talking to somebody yesterday about this, and I wonder whether Ms O'Brien has come across it. This person who works in Revenue remarked on the number of people coming in from outside Ireland getting PPS numbers for jobs. If that is the case, why are we not developing the skills so that young people can link in with those and what type of jobs are there? I want to try to get some more information on it to get my head around why there is such a large unemployment figure and why we are not matching the unemployed with those jobs.

I was also interested in Ms O'Brien stating that the INOU does not agree with the Government's claim that governments do not create jobs. Particularly at this point in time, there will be more pressure on the government because there is a strike in investment capital coming into this country to create jobs. Has the INOU identified a range of areas where skills can be developed or jobs can be created to take people off the unemployment register and into work, and where would these be?

Has Ms O'Brien an opinion on retaining jobs, which seems to be a problem? Vodafone, only last year, took 150 jobs to India and now has announced it will take 300 jobs from Dundalk to Northern Ireland. Retaining jobs is also an issue. How does that play into the matter?

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

A number of Deputies referred to the role of local authorities. Towards the end of the Celtic tiger era they finally played a role in employing people in communities who had hardly got a look in, particularly through a number of Traveller initiatives. They played an important and leading role in this regard. Unfortunately, given the cutbacks, this area has lost out, which is why we challenge the notion that governments do not create job. The State is a significant employer and could play a key role as an employer, particularly in areas in which long-term unemployment was a problem, even at the height at the Celtic tiger boom, or in communities that never got a look in. Reform cannot only be about retraction; we have to ask what we want to do, how we can do it well and who needs to play what role. The community and voluntary sector, the State and the private sector all have a role to play in addressing the unemployment crisis, around which there needs to be clarity.

There will always be job losses. At the height of the Celtic tiger boom, the State was creating 100,000 jobs and losing 80,000 annually. We must examine how we can retain jobs and replace them with better ones, if there is no hope of retaining them, which is the real challenge facing us.

Mr. James Doorley

I agree with Deputy John Lyons on the need for urgency. That is a message we often get back. There has been a great deal of talk about one-stop-shops, which we support. However, we need to be careful that co-location does not mean integrated services. The National Economic and Social Council produced a report a number of years ago on Denmark which brought together different services, but even though officials were across the corridor from each other, it did not result in services being linked. That is why we welcome the NEES proposal in the action plan for jobs. There is an understanding that this is not only about putting people in the same office. If they do not know one another and there is not a shared organisational culture, it will not make a huge difference. It will mean they will only have to walk two minutes down the corridor rather than 15 minutes down the road.

The concept of a youth guarantee is important because it is about giving young people hope and saying there is a contract between them and State to support them. All the evidence provided in reports on youth employment refers to its scaring effects. If a young person aged between 18 and 25 years is unemployed for six months or more, his or her view of life is impacted on. Therefore, it is a major issue for society as a whole. If one goes into a shop which states it will give a guarantee for a product, one will call it in, if one needs it. From the State's point of view, if it gives a guarantee, there must be a plan and resources in place and we need a buy in. It cannot be done from Leinster House. It requires a buy in, as Ms O'Brien said, from the community and voluntary sector, local authorities and a range of other parties. We support the guarantee.

I agree with Deputy Michael Conaghan about making the ERASMUS programme available to all. There are opportunities in this regard. I am not sure if has been discussed by the committee, but there has been no significant discussion about the next round of EU funding and the multi-annual financial framework between 2014 and 2020. I appeared before another committee a few weeks ago to discuss the fiscal compact treaty and mentioned that there had been little public debate about Ireland's priorities in that round of funding. Ireland will receive less money because our income to GDP ratio has increased and so on, but European Structural and Social Fund moneys will be available. These resources could potentially be used in the context of the youth guarantee. We got excited a few months ago when President Barroso talked about using Structural Funds, but, unfortunately, we have been efficient in Ireland and used all of ours. However, it would be useful to engage with the relevant Departments about the negotiations on that funding because it comprises billions, not millions, of euro throughout Europe. In the 1980s and 1990s these funds were used successfully to address the issues of youth unemployment and unemployment generally.

With regard to the JobBridge scheme, we think employers should contribute because they are getting a great deal out of it. I was asked what young people had said they had got out of it. They pointed out in most of the evaluations I have seen essentially that they were concerned that, as interns, they were not respected in the workplace. They also referred to gaining skills and having something to include in their curriculum vitae. These are the most important issues.

Deputy Séan Crowe raised the issue in Tallaght. It is horrific that stuff like that is being put on walls. As somebody who was unemployed for a period and has worked with the unemployed, it is tough enough without having one's dignity taken away also. We need to be careful that we do not take people's dignity away because that is demoralising.

Deputy Joan Collins raised the issue of job retention. It is important to recognise there has been a big change. Many young people have temporary and part-time jobs. That is driving emigration and creating uncertainty because even though they have jobs, they do not know whether they will have them next month or in six months.

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer

Mr. Ciaran Reid

I thank the Chairman and committee for the opportunity to make a presentation. I will give a case example that might have implications for the development of national initiatives or programmes and which might have local application in the Ballyfermot and Chapelizod areas. The statistics on the demographic profile of the area are quite stark. While it is a very vibrant and active community, it is underpinned by significant social problems and issues, including the high proportion of lone parents, particularly in the Cherry Orchard area where one in every two families is headed by a single person. Regarding educational disadvantage, in 2002 some 4% of people progressed to third level education. That has increased significantly and is now at 37%. However, the national average is significantly higher at 75%. Almost 80% of those in the partnership area who are unemployed do not have an education past junior certificate. The majority on the live register, in particular the long-term unemployed, have significantly low levels of educational attainment. A total of 13.7% of the population is in receipt of disability payment. They are not actively in the labour market but the welfare dependency ratios are significantly higher in Ballyfermot than in other areas.

We examined movement on the live register and were especially interested in mapping Ballyfermot. More than one third of the approximately 3,500 people on the live register in Ballyfermot are under 25 years of age as 900 of them are between the ages of 18 and 25. We have spoken about emigration in the past and there is a significant amount of emigration from Ballyfermot which affects the number of people signing on. A significant number of young people do not want to engage with the welfare system so they will not sign on. They are dependent on their parents or will do odd jobs here and there. I imagine if this is happening in Ballyfermot it is also happening in other areas.

In 2006 the number of people in the area on the live register fell to its lowest level with fewer than 900 people, but this has increased to more than 3,500. The social impact of unemployment is very well documented so we do not need to go into it. It is a cancer at the heart of communities which has a devastating impact on families and the community as a whole because of the community's perception of itself and the perception of individuals of their own contribution to and engagement with society. Any scheme or initiative developed must be mindful of the wider social implications and social context.

Ballyfermot has a reputation in the media of having social problems. We made very good attempts to improve the perception of Ballyfermot as a good place to live with very good community resources and facilities. We want to maintain this credibility so the issue of address does not become problematic when jobs become available. Previously those with an address in Ballyfermot were immediately disadvantaged because an employer would not take them on. We want to ensure this does not happen again.

We considered where jobs exist. The Forfás report on future skills needs in 2012 indicated jobs exist in ICT, engineering, accountancy, health care, manufacturing and education. Our issue is that the educational profile of those on the live register in Ballyfermot and Cherry Orchard means they cannot compete in this labour market because they do not have the requisite skills. The local employment service we run in Ballyfermot registers 2,000 people a year, with 1,000 of them coming directly from social welfare through the national employment action plan. We place people in sales assistant, clerical, caring, hairdressing and security jobs. This is where there is mobility in the labour market for the people with whom we work. With regard to income security and coming off welfare dependency, over time we need to increase the professional skill levels of people so they can compete more effectively in the labour market and compete for ICT jobs.

To develop a support framework for unemployed individuals, a number of underpinning principal characteristics need to be in place so we can see it from more than one perspective. In the middle is the individual and his or her need for skills development and formation. For this to happen a range of employment initiatives are necessary, in particular initiatives of sufficient duration to allow skills to be learned. We are concerned that some of the existing activation measures are too short, particularly for long-term unemployed young people. A year long Tús programme will be a valuable 12 months for an unemployed person from Ballyfermot who left school early, but the skills component required for the labour market will not be sufficiently well developed. The schemes developed need to be of sufficient duration to allow embedded learning in the process.

Labour market programmes need ICT and language development. Programmes must be aligned to the current labour market. Schemes or initiatives cannot be offered which have no relationship to the current labour market. The community voluntary sector has been described as an opportunity for people to learn and for people to run schemes. It has a role to play but we need schemes to lead to jobs in the real labour market and the real economy. Skills need to be learned for public and private sector jobs.

We need a holistic approach which is citizen focused. The dialogue must have mutual regard and we are concerned about some of the language used about activation and people on the dole not wanting or being unwilling to work. There should be a social contract between the individual and the State so there is mutual obligation for engagement. If an entitlement cycle exists it must be broken, but the State must engage in a participatory way with the individual so we do not have notices with threatening language in social welfare offices. There must be mutual regard in any activation programme.

The national employment and entitlement service being developed must require that engagement with an unemployed person is done with an adult guidance approach. Adult guidance tools must be used so one does not just pick from a list of ten vacancies. There must be a profiling process that examines the set of skills of the unemployed person and properly refers him or her to training or employment opportunities. There must be a real match between the individual's experience and expertise and the training course or job opportunity. We are concerned that all that would exist is a list of training courses and jobs with no adult guidance process to match them to people. A feature of this would be people ending up in jobs or training courses misaligned to their experiences or needs. There must be a balance between well-being and activation in terms of the social inclusion process.

Underpinning all of this must be confidence about income maintenance. It is difficult for a person who engages in casual work for several weeks to sign back on. We do not want people being able to sign on and off very easily because they may treat the welfare system as income support rather than seeking a full-time job but there must be a balance between this and ease of taking up an opportunity as it arises, even if it is temporary, and the system needs to be enabled to do this to a greater extent. The labour market is seasonal in its design, especially in certain sectors, and people need to be able to take up jobs without being anxious that their applications will take another 16 weeks to process. There must be mobility in this.

Chairman

It is not standardised.

Mr. Ciaran Reid

It has not been standardised but improvements have been made. We need to be sure income maintenance and income security are provided.

Institutional support is the last component, in that we should not develop a silo approach. Just because people are brought together does not mean they are working together. The institutional arrangements proposed in the national employment action plan and Pathways to Work must be designed in such a way that the citizen engaging with the welfare system receives the support necessary to be activated effectively. I will discuss the use of State agencies to generate other traineeships momentarily. Whatever the systems we develop, this page of my submission details the fundamental characteristics that need to be attached to the development of any programme or traineeship.

In terms of policy implications, the next page details information on future skills needs. Due to globalisation, we are a small, open economy. We cannot do much about this. Were we to try, however, specialised training, particularly in ICT, would be important. Many young unemployed people are good at ICT, be it Facebook, games or whatever. We could use their skills to deliver training courses. A major gap in the current market is application development. Many companies want to develop their own apps to promote themselves. We could develop traineeships or programmes in this regard. A group called Fastrack to IT, FIT, has developed a range of training programmes and has worked closely with FÁS to develop courses for unemployed people. One need not be trained at third level to get these jobs. Unemployed people can become sufficiently trained in ICT skills and get jobs, particularly in the fields of cloud computing, application development and social media.

Regarding labour market developments, vacancy data should be used more intelligently where unemployment exists. We have information on where vacancies exist and we know people are being imported to fill structural vacancies because the unemployed do not have the right skills profile. We need to develop skills through universities and State agencies to fill these gaps.

Given the scale and duration of unemployment, we need a radical scaling up of initiatives because their numbers are currently insufficient to make an impact. Many people will sit on the live register for a long time and not be engaged or, if they are engaged, there are no opportunities for them to progress. This has a significant social impact as well as an individual one.

Adult guidance and mentoring are key to ensuring progressions are right. State agencies, for example, the HSE, the OPW and local authorities, must be mobilised to create schemes, like the one to which Mr. Moloney referred, and be the employer of last resort. The rate for the job would be developed instead of a blanket €100 plus €50 or €100 plus €20 if a person engages. Some regard to a rate for a job process would be important. The development of social enterprise has been discussed, as has the use of EU and ERASMUS funding.

Whatever labour market approach is taken in the development of programmes, we need to understand there are differences between urban and rural contexts. Access to services, training programmes, etc. is significantly more difficult in rural areas. This sounds obvious, but it is true. In urban areas, proximity to training centres, third level institutes and vocational education committees, VECs, makes them more accessible. One needs to develop localised training courses and programmes in rural settings. The distance issue needs to be factored into the delivery of programmes.

Let us take the Ballyfermot programme as an example of the response to unemployment. We are trying to ensure initiatives and schemes of such a scale as to activate labour. We have 900 unemployed young people and must provide them with programmes of sufficient duration. We must ensure training courses and arrangements are not institutionalised. They must be flexible and dynamic. Our jobs initiative scheme is 20 years old. It was tailored to the needs of the time. We have a community employment, CE, scheme of a similar age. When we generate schemes or initiatives, they need to be of a fixed duration, after which they should be evaluated to ensure they remain fit for purpose and we do not create institutional, long-term training courses that cannot be deconstructed. Everyone acknowledges the CE schemes need to be reformed. However, they cannot be transformed to meet current labour market requirements, given that they have become embedded in communities and community services are dependent on them. When designing schemes, we should learn from previous experience.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Reid for his informative presentation. We can adopt some of his suggestions on a national scale. As we kept Senator O'Donnell until last the previous time and she missed a vote, she can lead this time. Deputy Conaghan will follow her.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

The first shall be last. Even though the first paper related to the 1970s, both it and the document on youth unemployment and the Ballyfermot-Chapelizod Partnership are excellent. The suggested solutions of training programmes, language and ICT courses and specialist training are excellent. Am I correct in saying Mr. Moloney wants the work he is involved in now to parallel the other scheme's success, given the number of people who have been integrated into the city council?

I submitted a large "Your Country, Your Call" application before I moved to these hallowed walls. It was called "Proud of our country, pride in ourselves". One always believes that one's idea is the first one, but mine was based on working in the open air. So much of our lives and melancholia is down to there being no sense of being outside in the open air in the wind, rain and whatever.

Why does Mr. Reid believe this is no longer relevant? Perhaps that was not the word he used and the CE scheme is on a small scale, but why did he not look to something along these lines? What about using State agencies as the last resort of the employer?

Deputy Michael Conaghan

I welcome Mr. Reid and Mr. Moloney and commend them on their work in the city, especially in the Ballyfermot and Cherry Orchard areas. This committee has been considering the national picture in a general way in terms of the scale of the problem, the age profile and the skills profile. If the Government or country is to make an impact, the Government needs to set out a number of significant interventions, but we will also need a local base of expertise, for example, the two gentlemen present, to meet the Government half way and to modify its interventions because they have tried this and that and the schemes will not work in their areas, etc. It will take a large effort by the Government and community leaders to make an impact in communities where there is a significant unemployment problem. Aligning those two forces is important.

Our guests referred to schemes that have worked previously. Mr. Moloney mentioned a scheme that worked in the 1970s or 1980s. Perhaps it could be replicated now. Lots of work can be done in the open air, for example, environmental schemes. It is practical work. Mr. Moloney was around at the time, as he was part of the old scheme's administration on behalf of the city council. What were the teething problems, difficulties or obstacles and how were they resolved? Also, how did participants on the schemes fair out and what was the throughput in that regard? There are not many people around today who in the 1970s and 1980s were managing resources like this and did so successfully.

A former scheme operated in Cherry Orchard involved a group of men formerly employed in the construction sector working on various environmental improvements, including allotments and community gardens, which made a huge impact visually on the area. This is the type of expertise and experience we need at local level if macro announcements are to work. It is useful that this committee is open to local expertise with a history of involvement. I welcome that we are engaging with such people today.

Deputy Seán Crowe

The witnesses have put forward some useful suggestions in terms of schemes. It is important people, in particular young people, who engage in a training course are convinced it will lead somewhere. One of the witnesses made the important point earlier that many of the schemes do not lead to employment. While they might increase skill levels neither the participants nor the tutors are convinced they lead to employment. I know a young lad, whose background is in brick laying, who is participating in a CE scheme doing environmental work which involves installing lagging jackets in attics. Another young lad who works with him doing the same work is a plasterer. I do not believe there is much training involved in installing lagging jackets. This young lad, who has been doing this job for the past 12 months, is working alongside people in receipt of a full wage, which I believe is exploitative.

The majority of young people want to work and would prefer to work in their communities doing work in which they can take pride. It is easy to engage young people in painting murals and so on. However, there is much work that is not being done. The key component is identification of relevant schemes. During the Celtic tiger era many people with particular skills took time off work to create a garden where families could take their children with special needs because the charity involved did not have the money to do this work. All of the people involved felt great pride in what they had done. They felt they had given something back. I do not believe anyone who is unemployed would have any difficulty in doing that type of work. It is important the correct types of work are identified. There may be some difficulty in terms of environmental projects on grounds previously maintained by local authority workers, which will need to be handled sensitively.

We are all aware of works in our communities that could be undertaken by CE participants. This was done during the famine. We now have a famine of jobs. Another issue which needs to be addressed is the cost to people participating on schemes or in employment. It costs €10 or more to get to and from their place of employment or training. Additional supports need to be put in place for these people. Reference was made earlier to self esteem. It is important people participating in courses believe what they are doing is useful and worthwhile. I am sure everyone has heard the urban myth that years ago a participant on a CE scheme who did not know how to use a telephone because he-she did not have one at home, who when given a banana to practise with ate the banana, following which the course had to be cancelled. We need to engage people in worthwhile work and to ensure they are not exploited by employers. If we can marry the two, that is the way forward.

Chairman

Would Deputy Lyons like to make a contribution?

Deputy John Lyons

I am familiar with the work being done by LES in Ballyfermot. I thank the witnesses for appearing before us today.

It is important, as stated by the witnesses, there is a push for greater flexibility on the part of social welfare centres. Currently, people need to fit particular criteria if they are to get a place on a particular education and training course. There needs to be a designated person within each social welfare office who can provide flexibility in this regard. For example, if the local partnership in Ballyfermot decides to take on 20 long term unemployed people to do further training with a company nearby those selected must apply to sign off the dole but retain their payment. The type of relationship they have with the relevant officer in the social welfare office might dictate whether they can do that. Some people might participate but do so under the radar and if caught will be in trouble. There are many good things happening. The type of flexibility which the Ballyfermot-Chapelizod partnership has with the social welfare or local employment offices needs to be replicated throughout the country. There needs to be a designated person in each office who has flexibility to allow people to retain their dole payments while undertaking two weeks or so work experience. The Ballyfermot-Chapelizod partnership is one of those places that has exemplar examples. We are familiar in Ballymun with the types of things it is doing.

Chairman

It is all about common sense, which is not always present.

Deputy John Lyons

Yes.

Deputy Robert Dowds

I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I represent an area not so far from Ballyfermot which is experiencing similar problems. I presume the partnerships link in with the Department of Social Protection in terms of ensuring what they and it are aiming at is dovetailed so that the system works as efficiently as possible. Perhaps the witnesses would comment on that.

Mr. Seán Moloney

On Senator O'Donnell's question, all of the people engaged on the environmental work scheme worked out in the open rather than in offices. On Deputy Crowe's point, if memory serves me correctly the people involved in the scheme in the 1970s were paid the rate for the job. They were employed by the local authority at the going rate for general operatives. They did not receive any top up as it were in terms of social welfare. They were employed by the local authority for as long as funding was in place and were paid the general operatives rate. As I stated earlier, these people were unskilled but they were paid the rate for the job.

We ran the community garden with the local authority in Cherry Orchard and were able to obtain VEC hours. There was a VEC tutor attached to the programme who accompanied the individuals in using their horticultural skills. If that is to be done over a longer term, why not try to attach a formal qualification to the process? We must recognise prior learning, which I accept. One learns by doing and if a person runs a family budget, for example, there are skills involved but we must ensure the work done is meaningful and we are not creating schemes just for the sake of it. They should lead to something and there should be increased employability at the end of the process.

This is not just about one scheme but a range of initiatives and engagement. I would employ some caution in dealing with youth work and training, as youth work must go on in the community and we must ensure that young people are part and parcel of the community. They should have respect for the citizens. We do not want to confuse that activity with labour market activity, and we must ensure that any youth engagement in training programmes brings about increased employability levels. If the participants are doing a mural, for example, they should learn skills that are transferable into the real labour market.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

Where is it intended to go from here?

Mr. Ciaran Reid

We have already made presentations to the Minister for Social Protection through Deputy Conaghan with regard to a particular initiative we want to run in the Ballyfermot area.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

What is the initiative?

Mr. Ciaran Reid

It is a hybrid from the environmental improvement scheme for the Cherry Orchard area. We would like to try to inform policy, particularly with regard to the components around the development of schemes and the four pillars I spoke about. They should be underpinning characteristics for any development of programme content. The message should be put across to those who make decisions about the scale and urgency of these issues. That may have been appreciated but we are now drifting on the length and duration of unemployment. That is a significant and worrying development in the policy context. We must respond to it and the urgency is to create meaningful options on a scale related to the numbers of unemployed.

Deputy Michael Conaghan

The witnesses operate at the local level but what do they think of the actions and words of those at government level, particularly at the higher levels? Mr. Reid works in an area with much unemployment, which does or has the potential to do much individual, family and community damage. With regard to recent announcements, where is the Government hitting the right notes and is there a hollow sound from some of what is being said? Perhaps the question is too general. If somebody asked the witnesses where the Government is getting it right with regard to perspectives, ideas and suggestions, with infrastructure to get those suggestions to work, what would they say? Where are the big gaps and how will the Government ensure these announcements and initiatives will be fruitful at a local level? What kind of partnership should be created at a local level in big urban communities to ensure the announcements have an effect on the ground?

Deputy Seán Crowe

My question is related. The witnesses mentioned that one in two people on the live register in their area are lone parents. One of the gaps in the initiatives to move young people forward is the question of how to care for children when people are in employment or training. Deputy Conaghan touched on this and I am surprised it has not been raised this morning. It is a key issue in the progression of people who are lone parents. What will they do with their children when in training or employment?

Mr. Ciaran Reid

Considering the reconfiguration of the institutional arrangements for engaging unemployed people through Pathways to Work, it is a very good way forward. The State is configuring services to profile unemployed people and matching them to appropriate training and employment options. The institutional arrangement is good but the practical delivery will be a significant challenge. Many of the individuals at the local welfare end may need training and development to do that work. Much of the work community welfare officers have been doing involves assessing means and entitlement, not necessarily adult guidance and adult guidance processes to support individuals. The platform is good in terms of the development and roll-out but it needs to be supported by training and retraining of the individuals with responsibility for it.

Deputy Dowds asked about the level of engagement between the local office and our organisations. From the point of view of this partnership and the local development companies nationally, there is significant engagement, particularly with those that have local employment services. We take 1,000 direct referrals from the live register through the welfare officer into our organisation for the adult guidance process to which I referred. Taking the community employment scheme as an example, the gaps are in the reduction in the training allowance. Taking away the training component or reducing its budget makes it a significant challenge for the individual to get meaningful qualifications. The person will have on-the-job training but will not have the associated qualification. There is a mixed message coming through when the labour market training programmes are created but the necessary training budget is not allocated to support individuals. It may be something the VEC can take up by compensating for the lack of budget. Anyone on such an initiative needs to be assured there is a training allocation for skills-based training associated with the programme.

Mr. Seán Moloney

There is rightly an emphasis on high-end, high-spec jobs but that requires third level education and beyond. In the areas we represent, such as Ballyfermot, such jobs are outside the reach of the people who are unemployed. They do not have the qualifications to access these jobs. We need to develop job opportunities within the reach of the people who are unemployed and who have a basic level of education. It is easier said than done. Matters will improve as people have access to further education. The high-spec jobs are very welcome and they will bring wealth to the country but we must also consider the people who cannot access these jobs because they are not ready. There will be a lag before they increase their educational level to get those jobs. While the jobs are welcome, they will not have a major impact on socially deprived areas in the immediate future.

I thank the committee for meeting us and I ask it to consider some of the proposals made, particularly in respect of the environmental work scheme. Perhaps the committee will consider these recommendations worthy of inclusion in its final recommendations to Government.

Senator Marie-Louise O’Donnell

I thank Mr. Reid and Mr. Moloney because it was a most informative morning. Mr. Moloney and Mr. Reid understand that jobs are about self-esteem. I have worked in the higher echelons of organisations with people who were highly qualified but deeply unhappy in their work. One must have self-esteem regardless of the job. I take Mr. Moloney's point about high-skilled jobs. Some 7,000 people applied for 600 jobs in the Army. High-skilled people are on their way off the island. Self-esteem is an important aspect and we must find jobs to give people a sense of self-esteem, a sense of worth, a sense of pride and a sense of work well done. This is an excellent scheme.

Deputy Seán Crowe

Regarding self-esteem, I can wax lyrical about those posters. We should write to the Minister expressing our concern. Mr. Reid said there is a similar poster in Ballyfermot and this may be a pattern around the city. Is it official policy? It is advertising a commercial entity but it undermines the self-esteem of people who come in to sign on and who want to work. I do not know whom the message is for but it is upsetting many people. We need clarification on this.

Chairman

Perhaps they are trying to single out one or two people but it is affecting thousands unnecessarily. I thank Mr. Reid and Mr. Moloney for a useful and informative session. We will benefit from the meeting.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.35 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 2 May 2012.

JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION debate - Wednesday, 25 Apr 2012

Unemployment and Youth Unemployment: Discussion (Resumed)

Mr. John Stewart

Ms Bríd O’Brien

Mr. James Doorley

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer

Mr. James Doorley

Ms Bríd O’Brien

Ms Bríd O’Brien

Mr. John Stewart

Mr. John Stewart

Ms Bríd O’Brien

Ms Bríd O’Brien

Ms Bríd O’Brien

Ms Bríd O’Brien

Mr. James Doorley

Ms Marie-Claire McAleer

Mr. Seán Moloney

Mr. Ciaran Reid

Mr. Ciaran Reid

Mr. Seán Moloney

Mr. Ciaran Reid

Mr. Ciaran Reid

Mr. Ciaran Reid

Mr. Ciaran Reid

Mr. Ciaran Reid

Mr. Ciaran Reid

Mr. Seán Moloney

JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION debate -
Wednesday, 25 Apr 2012