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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JOBS, SOCIAL PROTECTION AND EDUCATION debate -
Wednesday, 16 May 2012

Scrutiny of EU Legislative Proposals: Discussion with Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation

I welcome our witnesses from the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. They are Mr. Dermot Curran, assistant secretary; Ms Fiona Flood, principal officer; and Mr. Michael Greene from the employment rights and industrial relations division. The meeting has dragged on so I apologise for keeping the witnesses waiting. I am also conscious that the meeting should have been this morning so I appreciate the delegation compromising for our schedule. Our three guests are here to brief the committee on the two proposals for consideration: COM (2012) 130, proposed regulation on the exercise of the right to take collective action within the context of the freedom of establishment and the freedom to provide services; and COM (2012) 131, proposed directive on the enforcement of the directive concerning the posting of workers in the framework of the provision of services. Mr. Curran will brief us on COM (2012) 130 and Ms Flood will brief us on COM (2012) 131.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege with regard to the evidence they are to give this committee. If a witness is directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in respect of a particular matter and continues to so do, he or she will be entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of his or her evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and witnesses are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Mr. Dermot Curran

My opening remarks will cover both the directive and the regulation, and Ms Flood and Mr. Greene will be available on matters of detail that may be of interest to the committee. The two proposals launched by the European Commission in March are intended to strike the right balance between protecting workers and facilitating cross-border service provision in the context of fair competition in Europe's Single Market.

The proposal for an enforcement directive aims to remove uncertainties that have arisen in the implementation of the 1996 rules on the posting of workers. It aims to ensure better information for workers and companies about their rights and obligations, and better co-ordination between national competent authorities. In Ireland's case, our competent authority is the National Employment Rights Authority. The parallel so-called Monti II regulation is intended to take account of recent case law of the Court of Justice of the European Union and confirm that the freedom to provide services does not have primacy over social rights or vice versa. It is intended to confirm that the fundamental right or freedom to strike and economic freedoms must be placed on an equal footing.

The posting of workers plays an important role in the cross-border provision of services, particularly in sectors like construction, transport and temporary agency work. It is also important for service activities requiring a specialised, highly skilled workforce, such as in the information technology sector. The original 1996 posting of workers directive set out a core of mandatory working conditions applicable to posted workers in the host member state. It seeks to guarantee fair competition between all service providers and a level playing field. It also seeks to ensure that posted workers enjoy an adequate degree of protection during postings and prevents a race to the bottom with regard to working conditions.

The Commission's package of proposals will be examined in the Council of Ministers and by the European Parliament. Ireland's key concerns will be to ensure that any additional legislative intervention in this area will bring clarity and legal certainty to it. A key public policy concern is to ensure that core working conditions, such as minimum rates of pay, working time and provisions on health and safety at work, are well defined and that the temporary posting of workers is not used as a way to side-step minimum entitlements relating to pay and conditions.

In this context our priority is to ensure that any new proposal respects a diversity of the different industrial relations systems across member states, including the long-established role of bodies such as the Labour Relations Commission and the Labour Court. Departmental officials are currently engaged with the Council's deliberations on the new proposals via the working group on social questions. The Department has also initiated a round of consultations with social partners and other key stakeholders in order to ascertain views on the overall package of measures.

Turning specifically to the directive, the Government broadly welcomes the Commission's draft proposal for a directive on the enforcement of the original posting of workers directive. Ireland attaches great importance to the two fundamental principles at the heart of this proposal - the free movement of workers within the EU and the protection of those workers' rights on the one hand, and on the other hand the freedom of businesses to provide services anywhere in the EU's internal market. The challenge in getting the text of this directive agreed between member states will be in striking the appropriate balance between these two fundamental principles.

An improved system of enforcement of the posted workers directive should be capable of being achieved without creating excessive administrative burdens. This means avoiding excessive new burdens in resource constrained times for competent authorities of the state by minimising the need for new institutional systems or entities for the purpose. More importantly, perhaps, it means the new measures should not unduly impinge on business, particularly small and medium-sized businesses, which are disproportionately affected by administrative burdens.

Any improved system of enforcement of existing posted workers' rights should build on, not duplicate, existing compliance and enforcement arrangements that exist at national level. In the Irish context, there are robust employment rights enforcement arrangements in place and significant inspection resources committed in that area. Any new arrangement should also be proportionate and, in this context, it is interesting to note that according to the Commission statistics the relevance of posting in the Irish employment context is very low. Workers posted from Ireland as a percentage of employment in private sectors in other member states was an average of 0.1%, and workers posted to Ireland as a percentage of employment in the private sector averaged 0.5% between 2007 and 2009, which would include some of the boom years.

The provisions of the draft directive which provide for greater access to information across member states are welcome. The objective in Article 5 is to improve access to information about working and employment conditions in other member states where a business is considering providing services. Many small and medium-sized businesses, which are a cornerstone of job creation in Ireland and in most member states, are hampered by the lack of clearly and readily accessible information of this nature and this proposal can bring greater transparency in the area of information provision. There is also a welcome emphasis on providing information electronically, whether it be through an opening up of business registers or the use of the Internal Market information system, to exchange information between sending and host member states on companies engaged in the temporary posting of workers.

The principles governing administrative co-operation between member states to facilitate the implementation of the directive are also welcome, even as some of the finer detail concerning response times to requests for assistance remains to be agreed. The key to making such mutual assistance workable is to find realistic response times that do not create an excessive administrative burden for the member state which is the subject of the request.

Article 12 proposes introducing a provision whereby, for the construction industry, a contractor may be held jointly and severally liable for remuneration at minimum rates of pay owed to a posted worker and taxes and social insurance contributions owed to the state by a sub-contractor. The purpose of this Article is to provide enhanced protection for posted workers in the event that their employer, the sub-contractor, disappears or fails to pay them what they are owed. This Article also provides that a main contractor may avoid such liability by undertaking "due diligence" in conformity with a system to be created by the member state.

The committee may be aware of the concerns of employers in this regard. From the Government's perspective, we would have our own concerns. Joint and several liability is not a feature of existing employment law in Ireland and we have sought the Attorney General's advice as to whether this proposal is feasible in an Irish context. The Commission recognises that there are differing views among member states and stakeholders on the feasibility or desirability of such an instrument at EU level. Only eight member states have joint and several liability provisions for parties other than the direct employer with regard to wages, taxes or social security contributions.

In Articles 13 and 14 of the draft directive, some general principles are articulated concerning cross-border enforcement of administrative fines and penalties for those companies found by a host member state to be in breach of its employment legislation. While welcome on the face of it, the challenges should not be underestimated in terms of putting in place a framework for such cross-border enforcement. The existence in some member states of administrative fines and penalties for non-compliance with the relevant legislation, versus the criminal sanctions applied in jurisdictions, such as Ireland, is one such challenge. We are engaging in further consultation with the relevant national authorities which will inform our position on this element of the draft directive.

Turning to the regulation, this legislative proposal for a Council regulation, the so-called Monti II regulation, has been proposed by the European Commission in order to complement the parallel proposal for a partial revision of the directive and to build upon the significance of the European Court of Justice judgments in the Viking Line and Laval cases. These cases recognised for the first time that the right to take collective action, including the right to strike, constitutes a fundamental right and an integral part of the general principles of EU law. The purpose of the draft regulation, accordingly, is to clarify the exercise of freedom of establishment and the freedom to provide services alongside fundamental social rights, including the right to take collective action, in accordance with national law and practices and in compliance with EU law. A feature of an EU regulation is that it has more legal certainty than a directive, which would still leave room for diverging transposition and takes somewhat longer to produce real effects on the ground. A regulation is often seen as being a more direct and effective way of introducing particular proposals but, as the committee is aware, it requires unanimity among member states.

This regulation is intended to confirm that the freedom to provide services does not have primacy over social rights or the other way around. The proposal explicitly states that it may not be interpreted as affecting the right to strike. It avoids reversing or re-interpreting the case law of the Court of Justice of the European Union. It does not give primacy to economic rights, nor does it give primacy to social rights. Instead, it sets out to uphold a balance not only between those important rights, but also between the different social models and industrial relations within the Union. The draft regulation lays down general principles with respect to the exercise of the right to strike within the context of the freedom of establishment and the freedom to provide services. The proposal provides for a new alert mechanism for industrial disputes in situations that affect the proper functioning of the Single Market, but leaves national law governing the right to strike unaffected.

Undoubtedly some of the concerns of member states about the proposed regulation stem from the fact that the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, TFEU, clearly stipulates that the provisions of Article 153 of that treaty do not apply to the right to take collective action. The Commission is seeking a way out of this dilemma by basing the proposed regulation on the so-called "flexibility clause" at Article 352. This article may be used if a measure by the Union should prove necessary in order to attain one of the objectives set out in the treaties. The precondition is that the treaties do not provide the necessary powers for this, so it is using a specific clause within the treaty to try to bring forward this regulation.

The Irish Business and Employers Confederation, IBEC, is generally opposed to the proposed regulation and considers that there is no legal basis for EU legislation on the right to take collective action. IBEC objects to the Commission's reliance on Article 352 in furtherance of the proposed regulation. It considers that the legal base chosen for the proposed regulation constitutes a distortion of the purpose for which Article 352 is intended and operates to undermine the specific exclusions outlined in Article 153. IBEC's view is that Ireland already has well established industrial relations mechanisms which give expression to the right to collective bargaining and action, underpinned by statute. Any significant change in this, such as is being proposed, especially in the current climate, runs the risk of upsetting the careful balance that has been struck between workers and employers in this jurisdiction.

For its part, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions appears to consider that the proposals on the right of unions to take strike action could result in the right to strike being undermined across Europe and could well be in contravention of International Labour Organisation conventions. Its view appears to be that neither economic freedoms nor competition rules should have priority over fundamental social rights.

What is clear from the reactions of the social partners at both the national and European level is that they have significant concerns about the proposed regulation for altogether divergent reasons. The Department is aware of the sensitivities that surround these issues. The Oireachtas Joint Committee on European Affairs previously examined some of these issues in its 2009 report, "The Lisbon Treaty and Workers Rights". The committee may wish to note that a majority of parliaments of member states have not submitted reasoned opinions to the Commission in respect of this proposed Monti II regulation. This is very likely to be because of the significant doubts that have been expressed, in public commentary and elsewhere, about the prospects of the Monti II regulation being adopted in its current form.

However, as the draft regulation is currently framed, the Government's overriding concern would be to ensure that any additional legislative intervention in this area would bring clarity and legal certainty to it. Legislative intervention in this area would bring clarity and legal certainty. We are fully involved in the Council's deliberations on the new proposals and we are taking steps to consult directly with social partners to ascertain their views on the overall package of measures. Given the requirement for unanimity in respect of a regulation, it is likely that Ministers in the Employment Council would only agree on the proposed instrument if they are convinced it will bring real added value in terms of legal certainty to all member states.

What are the next steps in the process from here and what is the timeframe? There was a reference to the Attorney General giving an opinion on feasibility. Until now I understood the Attorney General's role was to give legal opinion rather than opinion on feasibility. IBEC and ICTU have divergent views on these matters. Is it likely the Government will have to take a view one way or the other at some point?

Mr. Dermot Curran

There are two different instruments at play and they have two potentially different timeframes. Both issues as they move together as a package may land in our lap for the Presidency next year. The Danes are currently progressing the issue and will table it at the Employment Ministers Council next month. There will be further discussion but it is unlikely that it will be disposed of during the Danish Presidency. The Cypriots will then take it on and they are aiming to win agreement on an overall approach rather than the detailed text. It is likely then that come the Irish Presidency in January, we will have a job to steer it through by crafting the final shape of the package.

There is, however, a general pessimism about the Monti II regulation in particular. It is more likely the posting of workers directive will form part of our Presidency agenda but whether the Monti II regulation has not been disposed of by then, that could happen. Some people would predict that such is the level of divergence among the social partners and member states, there will not be any consensus around this regulation. It might be that it falls to one side or features might be integrated in the posting of workers directive and we will then make progress in that way.

Feasibility is probably the wrong way to put it. It is about the idea of joint and several liability and how appropriate, rather than feasible, such a provision would be for the Irish situation and legal context. It is on that specific legal issue that we are seeking legal advice. The idea of sharing liability between an employer and subcontractor is not a feature of employment law in this or many other jurisdictions; it is a novel thing. That, however, is part of the Monti II regulation and depending on the view one takes of the prospects for that regulation, it may not fall to be an issue for us to wrestle with.

I stand corrected, it is part of the directive so we will have to cross that bridge and finalise our thinking on it.

The social partners are important stakeholders in these discussions. In all such public policy changes in the employment sphere, they are represented in Brussels through various umbrella bodies. They would have a key interest and role in the discussions around proposed legislative measures. We would listen carefully to what they have to say about the implications on the ground but ultimately the call will be made by Government as to how to transpose any directive that may emerge. That is always the case.

The figure for workers posted from Ireland is 0.1% and posted to Ireland is 0.5%. There appear to be insignificant numbers coming into Ireland and going out of the country. How many people are we talking about in those percentages?

This will have more legal certainty as a regulation than a directive. It takes longer to produce real effects on the ground. Is a regulation more practical than a directive?

Legislation on agency workers is being updated. How would this regulation fit with that? When will this be transposed into law?

Mr. Dermot Curran

The statistics we quoted came from the European Commission's own estimate of the constituency of workers in this category. I am not sure, however, how accurate that count would be. It is notoriously difficult to track and accurately count so I am not sure a great deal of reliance can be put on the precise figure but the key message is that it is a significantly small minority of the overall labour force. The 0.5% translates into about 1,700 in the private sector, and it is only the private sector we are talking about. I am not sure how that was counted by the Commission but I sound a note of caution about placing too much reliance on that. It is accepted to be a very small percentage of the overall workforce.

Ms Fiona Flood

The methodology the Commission used to calculate posted worker inflows and outflows across the Union was to count the number of E1-11s, the health certificates issued in respect of those outflows and inflows. The Commission admits it is not reliable because one E1-11 does not always equate to one posted worker. A posted worker who is posted several times over a period of time would get several E1-11 forms. As Mr. Curran said, with our own Border, there is a degree of porosity that is not formally captured in those statistics. Taking account of the nature of the Commission statistics, its headline figure is 1 million workers throughout the whole of the EU per annum.

Mr. Dermot Curran

On the question of the directive versus regulation, the regulation has direct effect and is an instrument that does not require to be transposed by member states. It is therefore regarded as somewhat quicker to yield whatever policy results it seeks to achieve. The downside of regulation as a mechanism is that it requires unanimity among all members states. That is the issue that might jeopardise the Monti II regulation to some extent, in that it is so contentious and the degree of consensus required for a regulation has not yet been reached, whereas a directive takes somewhat longer because each member state has a certain amount of time in which to transpose it and a certain amount of freedom in how each state transposes it. It will come into effect either by way of statutory instrument or by primary legislation, a recent Irish example is the Bill that dealt with the temporary agency worker directive. A directive allows for nuances and customisation to meet the needs of the member state, but this is not possible with a regulation. That essentially is the difference. People would be most optimistic about the success of this package of proposals on posting if we were to use the directive model.

Agency workers are covered by a directive that is enshrined in law, the Protection of Employees (Temporary Agency Work) Act 2012 that has been signed by the President today, Wednesday, 16 May 2012. Technically they can be a form of posted worker. We have domestic agency workers, indigenous agency workers, people who chose to work in health care or in other areas for family or other reasons. There are agency workers who are posted from abroad. There is nothing in these proposals that would cut across any of the provisions or protections we have given to temporary agency workers, most recently in the new legislation. It would not be inconsistent with the rights and entitlements of temporary agency workers. There are differences with the agency worker arrangement that do not apply in other employment relationships. The agency worker is in a triangular relationship, as there are three parties, namely, the hirer, the employer, which is the agency, and the worker. For that reason it is treated as a particular set of employment relationships that must be managed.

Nobody is expecting that the dossier will be concluded before Ireland hosts the Presidency. Naturally it would be the Government's ambition to make progress on it and we could hope to do that in 2013 with a commencement date in 2014.

That concludes our scrutiny of COM (2012) 130 and COM (2012) 131. I thank Mr. Dermot Curran, Ms Fiona Flood and Mr. Michael Greene for being most helpful. I acknowledge they received very short notice as they were asked to come before the committee only last week. They were very informative and have helped us to arrive at a formal conclusion.

Let me outline the three options to deal with COM (2012) 130. First, we can propose that the policy draft and a brief contribution can be sent to the European Parliament and Commission. Second, we can send the policy draft and an outline of the concerns that were raised at our meetings last week and today, which can be drafted and considered by the committee at our next meeting and can contain any observations on the proposal. Third, the committee may recommend a reasoned opinion to both Houses, which can only address the principles of subsidiarity. As our concerns are of a general nature, I do not think we need to take the third option. I think we should draft a proposal for the Minister that covers the concerns raised at our meetings, which we can discuss at next week's meeting.

Did the Chairman receive advice on this?

My decision is informed by advice from the lady on my right, who has been very helpful. In view of the timeframe, I think this is the better option. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I propose that we issue a draft of our political concerns on COM (2012) 130 to the Minister. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.25 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 23 May 2012.
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