Joint Committee on Justice debate -
Tuesday, 7 Nov 2023

Policing Matters: Discussion (Resumed)

An Cathaoirleach

I welcome our witnesses, who I will introduce in a moment.

If members or witnesses have mobile phones they should turn them off or switch them to flight mode so as not to interfere with the signal.

Today's meeting is an engagement with Garda Commissioner Harris about policing matters. This follows on from a recent meeting we held with various representative organisations and other interested parties, where similar topics were discussed.

I welcome Commissioner Harris. He is accompanied by Deputy Commissioner Anne Marie McMahon, with responsibility for policing and security; Ms Yvonne Cooke, acting executive director human resources and people development; and Assistant Commissioner Angela Willis of the Dublin metropolitan region. They are all welcome.

I will read a brief note on parliamentary privilege. Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they may be directed to discontinue their remarks, and it is imperative they comply with any such direction if given. We are dealing with professional witnesses today, and I hope with professional members. That note is often a formality, but it is important to recap those ground rules at the outset of every meeting.

I think most of the witnesses have been with us before. How we operate is that I will invite the Garda Commissioner to make an opening statement at the outset. We will then do a round robin of the members, each of whom has a six-minute slot including both questions and responses the witnesses wish to give. There is usually a degree of latitude, but typically after six minutes I will move it on to the next member so everybody gets a fair bite of the cherry.

I invite Commissioner Harris to make his opening statement.

Mr. Drew Harris

I thank members for the invitation to appear before them and address the committee on policing matters.

At a rough calculation, as time will be tight if everybody gets six minutes, I will keep my remarks shorter than the initial presentation submitted.

We are coming to the end of 2023, which is our policing plan year, and our strategy statement is also coming to a close. We continue to implement policing operations and initiatives to prevent and detect crime within local communities while supporting the needs of victims and concentrating on the most vulnerable in our society, in addition to safeguarding the security of the Irish State. We have prioritised the targeting of national and transnational crime groupings that wreak havoc on our communities through the sale and supply of illegal drugs. We have also enhanced our capabilities with national, regional and international partnerships to combat the trade in illegal drugs. In part we have done this through the expansion of our Garda liaison officer network throughout the world, which has reinforced our international partnerships.

To the end of September this year, we have seen an estimated 60,000 individuals arrested by An Garda Síochána. To date there has been a total of 248,000 charges and summonses created and issued for the prosecution of offences. We have seized cash in excess of €10 million, which we suspect to be the proceeds of crime. We have also seized illegal drugs, controlled drugs and drug paraphernalia to the value of €271 million during the course of complex policing operations at all levels - locally, nationally and internationally. We have seized a total of 1,575 firearms and 1,783 knives or sharp implements. These are some of the headline figures showing what members of An Garda Síochána are doing to fulfil their commitment to keep the people of Ireland safe.

We have demonstrated in recent years our determination and commitment to public safety. We pride ourselves on being a community-focused, victim-focused, human rights policing organisation. We have met the significant demands of policing in the post-Covid-19 era. We will finish our policing plan for 2024 in the coming weeks. We will continue to emphasise cyber-enabled and economic crime, the harm posed to vulnerable persons, in particular victims of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence and those experiencing or subject to hate crime. We will emphasise public safety on our streets by combatting antisocial behaviour and renewing our commitment to combating public disorder by adopting a zero tolerance approach through investigations into assaults in public. We are also conscious of the road fatalities and serious collisions that have happened, and the terrible increase in fatalities and serious injuries on our roads this year in comparison with recent years.

My colleague, Assistant Commissioner Willis, will be able to cover in great detail the specific point concerning Dublin city centre. However, Operation Citizen is uniform led, high visibility, street level and community focused.

We are working in partnership with many of the other key stakeholders in the city centre in order to address public disorder, antisocial behaviour, assaults in public places, street-level drug supply and use, criminal damage, the abuse of alcohol and other matters of public safety.

In respect of recruitment and retention, An Garda Síochána is all about people. They are our greatest asset. To some extent, we are subject also to very significant external labour market forces at play in respect of recruitment and retention. I am confident that we will be able to continue to attract really good candidates of sufficient calibre driven by a sense of community spirit and public service ethos to fill the crucial roles within An Garda Síochána, both as sworn members but also as Garda staff. We very much welcome the commitment in budget 2024 to financially support An Garda Síochána in terms of recruitment throughout 2024.

The recent announcement by the Minister in respect of the age limits to join An Garda Síochána also enables us to access an additional pool of employee talent. We look forward to doing so but it will require further adjustment to the recruitment regulations to allow that to happen.

We launched a dedicated recruitment campaign for vacancies at clerical officer grade within An Garda Síochána, which has attracted 7,400 applicants to fill approximately 400 vacancies in operational and support roles right across the country.

I am also very conscious of the demands made of Garda members and Garda staff. I am fully aware of the personal safety risks, stresses and pressures upon Garda members. We continue to support the careers of our personnel through continuous training, development and in the provision of welfare and well-being supports. Unfortunately, the harsh reality is that it poses a very significant challenge for An Garda Síochána to develop a safe psychological environment for our personnel due to the unpredictability and volatile nature of policing. It is of massive concern to us all that this year in excess of 646 members of An Garda Síochána were subject to violence and assault or obstruction while performing their duties in serving the community. It is a priority for me and all my senior leaders to ensure our personnel are supported and assisted when faced with assault, abuse, trauma, crisis, or mental health challenges. There has been a huge expansion of the services that we provide through the Garda employee assistance service and the provision of an externally based counselling service, which allows access to professional counselling support in a time-sensitive manner. An app has been developed and is accessible through a mobility device on a 24-7 basis. We launched An Garda Síochána's health and well-being strategy, which is supported by a national health and well-being office. In addition, we have introduced well-being workshops. We are the first major organisation to have a dedicated mental health first aid training deployed in the organisation. We are going through a process of training the trainers. We have also developed and launched menopause guidance policy for those who experience menopausal symptoms. In addition to those measures, the training and deployment of peer supporters by the Garda employee assistance service continues at pace. I am committed to ensuring that An Garda Síochána continues to prioritise the care and support afforded to our people in what is a very challenging profession.

In respect of rosters, which is one of the fundamental aspects of supporting personnel within a policing organisation both from a health and safety and well-being perspective but also in terms of the service that we provide to the public, I am pleased to say that negotiations are ongoing in respect to the reform of rosters. What we want to do is find a roster that meets the demands of policing and at the same time meets our requirements in terms of having a predictable roster that is compliant with health and safety and our responsibilities in regard to the European working time directive.

We continue to implement the Garda operating model across operational divisions. We want this model to deliver streamlined, efficient structures, embedding governance and performance functions and autonomy at divisional level with a focus on a community led-service at divisional level, which the rest of the organisation supports. It is developed into four functional areas within each division. That aims to release gardaí from non-core duties to operational duties while streamlining our administrative processes.

To date, eight operational divisions have transitioned into the Garda operating model, with more to follow this year as well. I am confident the full implementation of the operating model in 2024 within An Garda Síochána will enhance and strengthen the nature and quality of the Garda service provided to local communities by enabling specialisation within Garda divisions in the area of local crime, serious and organised criminality and community-focused policing. I thank members very much. I and my team are very happy to take questions.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Commissioner and his team. I will start with a couple of questions and then I will go around the table in the order in which members have indicated.

I think the Commissioner is aware of the witnesses who were in a few weeks ago and he was briefed on that.

Mr. Drew Harris

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

One of those witnesses was Mr. Adrian Cummins, chief executive of the Restaurants Association of Ireland, RAI. I will drill down into some of the things that he said. My questions are really about city centre policing and some of the issues that have emerged. He said that in a survey by the Restaurants Association of Ireland 100% of the respondents said Dublin is less safe today than it was pre-pandemic. He said that customers have told him they feel unsafe entering the city at night. He cited a Red C poll which said that only 20% of adults believe they are safe and secure in Dublin during the day and only 7% said they felt safe at night time. That is a major source of concern to his members and to me as Chair of the committee having heard that. I want to give the Commissioner an opportunity to respond to that. How does he feel hearing those statistics from people who are working in the retail and hospitality sectors in the city?

Mr. Drew Harris

Before I turn to my colleague, Ms Willis, we are very alarmed to see some of the reports in respect to the city centre and some of the incidents, antisocial behaviour and criminality. I would also point to our response to that in terms of Operation Citizen, the additional resources that have been put in place, the additional money in the form of the €10 million that was made available by the Government to help support operations both in the city centre but also outside of it within the Dublin metropolitan region. There has been a policing response in terms of uniformed policing supported by national colleagues and detectives, but it has been taken forward in terms of a real effort to engage with stakeholders and to build their confidence.

We have talked about our figures in terms of the crimes reported to us. They show a position of not much change between 2019 and this year but there is something in respect of the sentiment and that is certainly what we wish to address with our other stakeholders but also in terms of our physical presence on the ground. I might hand over now to Ms Willis.

Ms Angela Willis

As the Commissioner has said, we are doing a lot of work in the city centre with partner agencies in recognition that a collaborative approach is required in the city centre in particular to create the feeling of safety for people who visit, work in and live in our city centre.

I will give an overview of some of the activity that we have undertaken in the city centre and across the Dublin metropolitan region. We have initiated more than 92,000 prosecutions since January of this year up to 31 October. We have undertaken 67,948 proactive patrols in that timeframe. We have seized illicit drugs with an estimated street value of €58,847. A number of very high-profile incidents occurred over the summer, in particular assaults, and a number of people are before the courts in regard to them. We have a number of files with the DPP in regard to further charges that may be preferred in connection with some of the incidents. I will not go into the detail of any of the incidents other than to say that we have had significant success in the investigation of those and in the identification of perpetrators. Going back to the feeling of safety, our statistics do not show any significant increase. We are in a very similar place to where we were in 2019. In fact, the only category of assault that has increased in that time is assault on our own members. We know that a collaborative approach is required in the city centre.

We know we need to deal with the root cause of the issues that create the perception of people not feeling safe in the city centre. We have a lot of vulnerability in the city centre and we work with our partner agencies. We work very closely with the Ana Liffey Drug Project. When we come across people who have vulnerability, addiction issues and other issues that need a wider response than law enforcement, we have a referral mechanism that works very well. We have had very good success with it. Other agencies, such as the HSE and Ana Liffey, then kick in. We work very closely with Dublin City Council on this also to address the root cause of the issues that make people feel unsafe.

At a previous meeting there was some conversation about begging in the city centre. A report was issued a number of years ago. The Ana Liffey Drug Project did a lot of research on how we can address these issues. We need to address the underlying cause of all of these issues. Sometimes it manifests as a feeling of being unsafe. People may be hanging around the city centre waiting to access treatment. They may not be engaged in crime. The vast majority of time they are not engaged in crime but it still creates a perception of fear in the city. We are working very hard to try to address it.

We do a significant number of proactive patrols. We were provided with additional funding by the Minister for Justice during the summer. We have particular operations in place with the support of this additional funding. We are trying to target resources through the analysis of crime trends and finding out what time of the day and day of the week things happen and where they happen. We then target our resources in a proactive and informed manner to address these issues, in partnership with the other agencies with which we have very close and positive working relationships in the city centre in particular. We also work with local community safety partnerships, such as the north-east inner city initiative. Very positive proactive work is being done whereby families are supported in trying to break the cycle of crime, which can be prevalent in some situations. We will continue to work with our partner agencies and to engage in proactive patrols and policing, in addition to reacting where required.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms Willis. I want to drill into several issues. The Commissioner said that crime levels are not particularly above those of 2019 and essentially are on a par with them. It has been suggested that one of the reasons for this is that people have stopped reporting crime as frequently. Crime may be up but reported crime may be static. I would welcome the views of the witnesses on this.

I am sure that Mr. Anthony Gallagher, who is a retired Garda inspector, is known to the witnesses. He was a very useful witness at our previous meeting. One of the points he made, which I have often heard said, was that there are a couple of gangs amounting to 24 or 25 individuals who are recidivist offenders. He offered the view that a lot of crime is committed by a small number of people. To use that phrase, if only we could round up the usual suspects. This is in tandem with what the assistant commissioner has just said. There might be a large number of people on the streets but they are not necessarily causing any direct problem. There is a small group that has a menacing method and commits a lot of crime. If it is as simple as this could it be a case of identifying these people and bringing them before the courts and prosecuting them? Is it as simple as this? I assume it is not.

The assistant commissioner mentioned the community safety partnership. The plan for Operation Citizen is a community-based plan. I am a great supporter of community policing. I have seen it do really well in my district of Naas and north Kildare, and the area I represent as a constituency Deputy. I have a question about the city centre. Is a community safety partnership or community policing model appropriate for an area that has some residential areas but also has tens of thousands of people travelling in and out every day? It is not a normal community in this sense. Whether people are perpetrators or victims of crime, there is a large number of transient people going in and out of town for work or study or to socialise. When I heard it announced over the summer, it did not sit right with me. This is not a normal community; it is a city centre. By definition it has multiples of the population who might be living locally and using it. Is this the best approach in these circumstances?

Mr. Drew Harris

I appreciate the need for brevity. There is always an element of underreporting in respect of crime. I have no information at present to suggest that we are seeing a particular prevalence of underreporting. We always encourage people to report crime. I point to our presence on the streets. There will be an investigative response if people report crime. The assistant commissioner Ms Willis has outlined the action we have taken on prosecutions and successful detections. This is a pattern of successful work by An Garda Síochána that will continue. I would always say to people to report crime. There will always be an element of people not reporting it. Until we have a full crime survey that targets the population, it will be very difficult for us to know what the element of underreporting might be. Given the confidence reported in An Garda Síochána, I do not think underreporting would have the same prevalence as there might be in neighbouring jurisdictions on these islands or in Europe.

There is truth in stating that a small group has a disproportionate impact on crime. Again, I point to the investigative work and the focus of our uniformed units throughout the country, of our detectives, drug units and other crime teams and of the national teams. We are very conscious of those who are prolific offenders. In part, the challenge for the criminal justice system is to find a means of dealing with them. Regrettably for some it may be prison but hopefully for others it could be that their lives can be pointed in a more positive direction. A great deal of work has gone into diverting child juvenile offenders away from crime. By and large, there is success for a good proportion of them. A lot of work has been put in by youth volunteers and youth workers and by our juvenile liaison officers.

With regard to community safety partnerships, there is a very successful partnership in the north inner city. I recognise the point made by the Cathaoirleach in respect of a community. In effect, it is not an area where a large number of people reside. There are various types of communities. We have the community of business people and those who have opened shops and restaurants. A university in itself can be a community. We have to adapt to this in terms of what they might need. It is very appropriate for us to go to a university to give crime prevention advice and to encourage the reporting of crime. We have to adapt our response to the community in front of us.

Deputy Alan Farrell

I thank the witnesses for coming before us. I am very grateful for the opening statement, which is very helpful in framing the discussion. I want to touch on a few issues. I have a very short period of time to cover the ground but in particular I want to speak about the roster, mental health and well-being and associated supports. I want to touch on the Garda allocation model for districts throughout the country in light of the Commissioner's appointment to his role. Has he amended this in any way? Is it still solely based on the crime statistics that are presented?

The additional budgets being provided for Garda staff are very important. There is an imbalance in the number of gardaí versus the number of support staff. There are not enough support staff with regard to the professional services they can provide.

I compliment the Garda Commissioner on resolving the Data Protection Commissioner's issue with PULSE. That is an important milestone. I remember I was here when that issue arose, and it was problematic to say the least. There was also an issue that arose from our previous discussion with representative bodies, which was that training and continuing professional development, CPD, was being carried out on their own time. I thought that was peculiar, and perhaps Mr. Harris could address that. I know it was covered in the media at the time. This is ongoing updates on legislation and other such matters, and whether it is being carried out on a garda's own time, which I find peculiar. If there is time I also want to touch on the review of recent protests and the security of Members of the Oireachtas. Of course, the most important aspect of this conversation is the security of members of An Garda Síochána themselves, with the report of more than 600 incidents of assault. That is notwithstanding the passage and implementation of legislation that will support gardaí. Perhaps the Commissioner could touch on the roster and allocation issues, and we will see where we go from there.

Mr. Drew Harris

I will answer the first point about the protection of members on duty. We welcome the body-worn camera initiative, and the legislation going through in terms of the provision of that equipment. That will definitely advance the safety of members of An Garda Síochána, not just in terms of the physical risk but the amount of abuse they face every day. They have a record of that and it is recorded. It also gives us, at least on balance, an idea of the number of times that members of An Garda Síochána are being recorded, which footage may then be put up on social media and so on. I point to the budget secured for additional and new body armour, and the upgrade of equipment provided to the emergency response unit, ERU, and armed support unit, who deal with the most critical incidents. We also welcome the recent increase to 12 years in the maximum sentence for assault on a member of An Garda Síochána and other emergency services, including the ramming of Garda vehicles, which has unfortunately become prevalent.

I will ask Ms Cooke to speak to the issue of welfare. A huge amount of work has been undertaken in that area. It is an area we take very seriously, and we have been really adaptive and at the leading edge in terms of what we have done.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

With respect to well-being and welfare, we have our own strategy in place which sets the foundation for all of the work in this area. Key services we have in place have been informed by operational colleagues telling us what they need. We have been significantly investing in the occupational health and well-being service, most recently advertising for and securing nurses into that area. We also recently ran a competition for occupational physicians. That will continue to add additional resources to that area.

Provisions are in place to cover all of the situations our colleagues will face and the issues that might arise for them. First, we have the employee assistance service, which is quite embedded now within my own directorate. We have 17 full-time staff - sworn and unsworn - supporting both operational and operational support colleagues. That is one of its kind in terms of policing. That is supported by a significant peer support programme, where colleagues are trained to support peers on the ground. Approximately 1,100 members across the organisation are trained.

We also have a 24-7, 365 days per year independent helpline and counselling service for all staff within An Garda Síochána. We have specific trauma informed counselling services because of what we have learned about post-traumatic stress disorder and the need to intervene at the earliest onset. There are also specific psychological supports for specialist areas. We have identified those whereby individuals will most likely come into contact with more psychological trauma because of what they are exposed to operationally. We have also run a significant number of well-being days, helping colleagues to understand themselves to see key signs of stressers and seek out help.

Through ongoing internal campaigns, engagement and communications, we have been trying to destigmatise the issue of mental health and trying to get people to come forward early to seek assistance. We now have a well-being stakeholder forum in place, headed up the chief medical officer. Staff association and union representation are part of that. It is very much focused on key activities that can be driven out locally.

We have also undertaken a staff attitudinal survey - the Durham survey, which the Deputy may be aware of. We have looked at the key findings of that and an agreement has been put in place that we will have an organisational working group focusing on activities that can be delivered at a local level. This is something we will continue to invest in because of the nature of policing and the trauma and exposure our people unfortunately witness day in and day out.

Deputy Alan Farrell

Will the Commissioner refer to the training remark I made based on testimony before the committee in recent weeks?

Mr. Drew Harris

The Garda College is responsible for delivery of training but we have local CPD training too. As a result of Covid, we accelerated our online training and now have extensive online training provision. We introduced the new Garda education training system in March 2023, and it regularly has 30,000 logins per month from people accessing training. Last year, the college provided 25,000 training days around crime specialists and operational skills. Leadership management professional development provided 44,000 days. That is dwarfed by the foundation training provided for our trainee gardaí. There is a big investment in the attendance of personnel in third-level programmes. That can often be on their own time. Last year we partially funded 125 such programmes and we fully funded 24. I think that 2,000 people have been through the human rights certificate provided by the University of Limerick. People by and large were doing that in their own time. The learning management system, LMS, training and in-person training is all on duty. People are also undertaking self development, primarily in terms of qualifications, in their own time. There is a mixture there. If you count those qualifications as training, because they are related to things like governance, the executive leadership programme, certificates in fraud, e-crime and court presenting, there is plenty there applicable to the police role. People are undertaking those courses of their own volition as part of their professional development.

Deputy Alan Farrell

To be fair to the Commissioner, I did not read back the transcript of the meeting, but I think reference was made to a legislative update or something along those lines that a representative remarked on. It referred to the fact they were in the middle of reading that update, which was an online update while on duty. They were called away and they never had an opportunity to go back to it. I think that was the kind of reference. It might be a matter for Ms Cooke.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

I can answer that. Issues like that have been raised with me by the staff associations at the monthly meetings I have with them. What they have specifically been requesting is dedicated time for training and development. That is something we committed to looking at. In the meantime, we have communicated through our leadership team and supervisors to attempt to make provision for that training. However, as the Deputy can imagine, things like that will happen in an operational environment. We have committed to looking at dedicated training time within the live environment inasmuch as it can be achieved. It is something we are aware of.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I thank everyone for being here. At the outset, I want to voice my own confidence in the work that the Garda does and my support for An Garda Síochána. Its members put their bodies and lives on the line for our safety. It is genuinely appreciated.

There are three main topics that I want to talk about. One is the number of resignations from the force that we have and how that feeds into the issue of morale. I also want to talk about the number of charges that are being brought for possession of drugs for personal use and about community gardaí.

On community gardaí, there is a feeling, perception or otherwise that the community Garda service is being squeezed or that the numbers are not being prioritised and that the units exist but the people operating within those units are lesser. I can talk about my own constituency but I do not necessarily think it is fair to do so. I want to get the Commissioner's sense of how important he feels the community Garda service is. In my own experience, and I think most people here would agree with me, the community Garda service actually prevents more crime than any other section of An Garda Síochána. Community gardaí understand young people, communities, school life and can actually build up relationships. We should be having a conversation about getting more numbers into that section, not a debate over whether or not there should be a reduction.

On the number of charges being brought for possession of drugs for personal use, I want to get the Commissioner's response to the figures. In 2017, 3,692 criminal charges were brought for possession of drugs for personal use. That is not for supply or dealing in drugs, but for personal use. These were people who were found with drugs on them for their own personal use. So far this year, 6,396 charges have been brought. Almost 6,400 individual charges have been brought for possession of illegal substances for personal use. Many of these people will have addictions. Does the Commissioner not feel that it is an utter waste of Garda time to charge people for possessing something that they are addicted to? They are not always addicted, but in a huge number of cases they are. We have talked about the city centre and trying to combat the issues we see there around addiction. When it came to the discussions on injecting facility, there were planning objections to it. It is an injecting facility like the facilities that are in 80 cities across Europe, which have helped tackle overdoes and death and have taken open injecting away from the visual of people in the city centre and into a medically supervised facility. Garda representatives have never been full-throated in their support for such a facility. They have always been a little bit, I might say, negative towards it, and say it will be challenging. They never really speak to how it could effectively deal with the issues of open injecting that we see in the city centre.

The last set of figures I want to talk about relate to resignations from the force. In 2013, there were 26 resignations from An Garda Síochána. In 2018, that number was 77. Up to this month, we understand that the number is 116. Compared to 2018 and 2013, we have 114. I got the figure of 114 from a parliamentary question. We understand that the number is 116 now. The Commissioner has to accept that there is an issue there if we have that number of resignations from An Garda Síochána happening, and that it is a morale issue. Anecdotally, people tell me they would not join the force now.

I know the Commissioner's time is short. I ask him to respond to the points on community gardaí, charges for possession of drugs for personal use and the injecting facility in terms of tackling drugs, and the number of resignations.

Mr. Drew Harris

If I might, I will address the last point in respect of recruitment to the organisation and retention. I have to say that between 2013 and 2023, the context in which we employ individuals has changed entirely. In 2013 there was no recruitment to the organisation. In fact, active efforts were made to reduce the size of the organisation in terms of allowing people glide paths, in effect, out of the organisation and around career breaks, etc. That situation has changed. We are in a position of very active recruitment, coupled with a very active jobs market which is in effect a global jobs market. Individuals who work for An Garda Síochána are skilled. Other employers seek those skills and actively seek them out in trying to attract them into their organisations. I have to say that it is not just the private sector. Other police services elsewhere in the world are very active in respect of this, particularly the Western Australian Police Force. We have also had individuals resign from the organisation and go to other parts of the public sector. We are very conscious of that, and in response to it, Ms Cooke is leading on a group that has met four times in respect of what else might be done on the retention of individuals within An Garda Síochána. We have conducted our own exit interviews, which have given us qualitative data that we will want to build up over time. We also know, from our own internal audit that we conducted last year, some of the stressors within the organisation. We have an action plan to deal with those in terms of the amount of work people are taking on, the supports they feel they get from their supervisors and from the organisation, and also issues around implementation of ICT.

We have an overwhelming amount of work ongoing which is within the change category, some of which is driven by the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland and subsequently, A Policing Service for the Future.

Coupled with that, the environment in which we police has become more difficult. We seem to be dealing with more traumatic situations and we are certainly dealing with a good deal more abuse and assault than Garda members might have faced ten, 15 or 20 years ago. That is regrettable, but it is also an international trend in terms of what is happening to police services throughout the world. We are not immune to factors which are changing society and their view of policing throughout Europe, in effect. What we can say is that by and large we have missed the very worst of what has happened to other organisations. Certainly, we do not in any way underestimate how difficult the work is, the support that is required for individual members and the support that Government provides in terms of things that we have asked for and have been supported on, including increasing the allowance for students joining the organisation, increasing the sentence for assault on gardaí and improving the terms and conditions of gardaí. All of these are things that we have taken forward and I have taken forward as Commissioner. We have done an awful lot. We also recognise that we invest a lot in our people through training and we want them to stay in the organisation if at all possible. Anything that we might do, we will be doing.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

Does the Commissioner not think that the number of resignations points to a morale problem?

Mr. Drew Harris

What I am saying is that I recognise all of the difficulties that we have within the organisation. We regularly meet. Ms Cooke meets monthly and I regularly meet with the staff associations. On the morale issues that we face, I am not avoiding any of these issues in terms of the difficulty of policing. At the same time, I would point to people's sense of belonging with the organisation, their sense of duty that they feel to the people of Ireland and their recognition of how important their work is. It is not all a negative story, but at the same time we do recognise the stresses that are on people, the fatigue that they are reporting, the stresses and strains around the workload and the reported oversight that they feel is intrusive. We recognise all of that. I do not dodge or deny any of it. As it has been raised, we have done our very best to deal with it and continue to work to do so.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

Can I get a response on the issue I raised about drugs, possession for personal use and the injecting facility?

Mr. Drew Harris

We have made a huge investment in respect of dealing with street-level drug dealing.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I asked about the charges of possession for personal use.

Mr. Drew Harris

If I might say, very often drug dealing at a local level is actually managed through the couriering of single items of drugs. We are very conscious of the overall national approach to drugs. We believe in a health approach for those who are addicted to drugs, but at the same time, there is a huge criminal enterprise around the movement of huge amounts of drugs in our society.

Part of that seeks to evade detection by going down the route of single possession. We know this from intelligence and we have to counter it. This may be a reason we have seen an increase in prosecutions around simple possession. We are conscious of those who are addicted. Theirs is a health issue. The injecting facility is a health initiative and it is for the health side to promote that. I have never stated my objection towards, or even neutrality around, an injecting centre. It is just that the question has never been asked of me.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

Garda representatives at these hearings have said that they have never supported it and that the policing issues involved would be challenging. It would mean much more if Garda representatives and people in positions like Mr. Harris’s said that a facility such as this would help them police open injecting in the city centre. Mr. Harris’s words carry much weight, so not to be fulsome in his support of the injecting facility drags down the entire agenda of changing drugs policy and being more humane.

Mr. Drew Harris

The injecting facility is a part of public policy on how to deal with the problem of drugs in society. We are wholeheartedly behind all of that policy. If it includes injecting centres, of course we are behind it, but it is also right for us to say that there are down sides. We will have to manage the environs of that area. We will undoubtedly get complaints about the area. People who have provided evidence have been stating what is probably going to be a policing issue for us. That said, we wish to see people facilitated in trying to get away from the detrimental health impacts of addiction. If that is through an injecting centre where they can access medical supervision and, indeed, medical assistance, that is very positive.

An Cathaoirleach

Next is Senator Gallagher. The running order then will be Senator Ward and Deputy Daly, who will be returning.

Senator Robbie Gallagher

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for the work the Garda does on behalf of us all in increasingly difficult circumstances. Our appreciation is heartfelt.

I wish to ask a number of questions. The Commissioner mentioned the new operating model. In my neck of the woods of Cavan and Monaghan, there are deep concerns among members of the community and gardaí. Changes have been made to the original proposals. For example, Donegal and Kerry were meant to be part of divisions involving a number of other counties. Following the review, they will now be stand-alone divisions, which is a sensible and welcome decision.

The three counties of Cavan, Monaghan and Louth are together, as are the three counties of Mayo, Roscommon and Longford. I will stick with the former, though. They are three Border counties whose policing needs are consequently unique compared to many other parts of the country. The Commissioner will know all about that, including the trials and challenges that flow from the situation. Will he listen to the requests to re-examine the model?

Mention was made of retention and recruitment. I understand from figures that have been circulating that approximately 240 gardaí will be attested this year. That number is alarming when one considers that, with the number of members retiring early and others retiring on time, we are losing somewhere north of 500 members per annum. Based on the figures available to the Commissioner for the number of people coming through the door currently, how many gardaí does he estimate will be attested in 2024 and 2025?

I heard reports this morning about what happened when gardaí were injured in the course of duty. I understand that there are delays in gardaí getting access to the chief medical officer to sign off on confirming that they were injured while on duty. In some instances, the delays stretch to 12 months. After three months, though, a garda goes on half pay. Are my facts here correct? If so, it seems unfair that someone who is out there protecting the community and who gets injured is left on half pay through no fault of his or her own.

To be parochial, we have issues around community policing and how there are no drugs units. This is concerning, as the importance of community policing cannot be overstated. I am heartened by the Commissioner’s comments about being attentive to the concerns raised by the Garda representative bodies. Those concerns are wide and varied, as he outlined in his contribution. We cannot deny that pay is one of those concerns. I understand that one of the representative organisations – I believe it was the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, AGSI – has proposed that a pay review body be established. Would the Commissioner support such a call?

Senator Barry Ward took the Chair.

Mr. Drew Harris

I will address the question on the operating model and the community policing model. The rationale for the operating model was to try to minimise the amount of administrative effort in the divisions and districts. We effectively went from 99 administrative units – the districts – to 23 divisions. Part of this is to streamline the command structure and provide more autonomy to the chief superintendents, in that they would have more personnel, which would allow a degree of specialisation. Many of the benefits of the operating model are seen across the country, in that there are detective superintendents in place in each division, which was not the case prior to the operating model. There is also an inspector on duty 24-7. We increased the number of inspectors significantly to provide additional supervision and support to gardaí while on duty. We have also increased the number of sergeants. This was all in response to various reports, including our 2017 internal audit, where gardaí reported that they were not getting enough support in terms of front-line supervision. That support is now being delivered. It is also being delivered to local units to deal with issues of domestic abuse, child abuse, etc. These are all positives for the service we provide.

The operating model is based on community policing. We would have functional areas, but the main focus would be on smaller areas within a division led by an inspector and sergeant with a community policing team. They would be local contacts and address local issues. The inspector and sergeant would effectively be at the front of the house when addressing issues with other agencies. As the new community safety legislation is enacted and that approach is taken, it will have an effect on how we work with other agencies.

The organisation’s model was not handed down to us on a stone tablet. It can be subject to review. The previous model stood the test of 100 years, but it was no longer fit for purpose. Too much serious and specialised crime was being dealt with as though everyone was omni-competent and could deal with everything that came through the door.

Much of our approach has to be far more specialised around cybercrime, fraud and other crimes, as I have already said, including domestic abuse, rape and child abuse. That is what we sought to achieve. We are continuing to recruit and to increase the numbers in the organisation. That is our stated intention and we are supporting the Government to do it. All the divisions will see the numbers assigned to them uplifted. That is our intention.

The issue of the pay review body has been raised. The associations can make a strong argument in that respect. There are many issues around pay and conditions, allowances, mileage, subsistence allowance, accommodation allowance and pensions that have sat unresolved for a considerable period. There has been a recent uplift in the student allowance. That allowance had remained static for many years. These are issues that in the overall, a pay review body could assist with. These factors are leading to a sense of disillusionment. They are impacting members because their allowances are not keeping pace with the cost of living. They are falling behind. Some of the rules in respect of those allowances are antiquated and not fit for the modern way of working. There is a lot to be said for a pay review body that would specifically look at our terms and conditions, even for a dedicated period. That would be helpful.

In respect of injured members, I will turn to Ms Cooke to talk about the process. I would be alarmed to hear that someone who has been injured in duty is allowed to languish and suffers in respect of pay. If there is a specific case, we would want to know about it immediately.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

With regard to the process, we would want to know about the specific case. We have a process in place whereby local GPs can assist to get people back to work quicker. That is a new piece and means members do not have to go to the chief medical officer. I mentioned that we have been adding resources to the occupational health unit and that is definitely assisting. There is close monitoring between HR colleagues locally in the divisions, the specialist units and my own HR team with respect to actively engaging with individuals who are injured. The Commissioner routinely contacts colleagues. We keep quite a close eye on that. We are also reviewing what is referred to as the 11.37 process whereby individuals remain on full pay when an investigation is undertaken into an injury on duty. We can link in afterwards on a particular case. We would be keen to hear about that.

Senator Robbie Gallagher

Roughly 240 members have attested this year. Those numbers are alarming. Only 240 have attested this year while 500 will have gone out the exit door by the end of the year. What are the projections for 2024?

On the policing model, it is a long way from Blackrock in County Louth to Blacklion in County Cavan. It is a vast area and there are grave concerns about that. I hope the criteria of the review that resulted in a change of heart and mindset in respect of Donegal and Kerry would pertain to that particular region.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We are running up against the clock. Rather than allowing the Commissioner to come in at this point, I will come to the members who are waiting and allow Mr. Harris time to answer thereafter. I will come to Deputy Daly and will then come to Deputies Pringle and Costello. We will take the three Deputies together, if that is okay.

Deputy Pa Daly

I have a number of quick questions. The first is for Assistant Commissioner Willis. Would she agree that within the north inner city, there is a difficulty, and has been a difficulty for years, with a large number of vulnerable people congregating or being housed in temporary accommodation in the city centre? Drug clinics, such as the one in Blanchardstown, have closed. People with vulnerabilities have additional needs and accessing services in the north inner city does not help the level of criminality within that area. That is one question.

The Commissioner mentioned the road traffic corps in his opening statement. Its numbers have fallen by 17% in the past decade. Conor Faughnan of AA Roadwatch mentioned on the radio this morning that the reduction in this regard is a contributing factor to the increase in road deaths. There is not a Garda presence on the roads and that may have something to do with the increase in the amount of deaths on our roads. There have been 165 fatalities on the roads to date this year, up from 140 in 2019, which was before the Covid-19 pandemic and is the most recent year for which we have numbers.

Will the Commissioner also address the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland? Perhaps the issue was addressed when I was outside the door. There are issues around taking gardaí away from non-core duties, such as court presenting, coroner's courts, transfers from prisons and so on. Is any progress being made about implementing the commission's reports, which are not five years old?

The cost of living has also been mentioned. There are difficulties in recruitment because members who are coming to Dublin are facing rents of €2,000 per month. Is that influencing potential recruits not taking up positions? Has that come to the Commissioner's attention?

There has also been mention of the Garda employee assistance service. I understand that in the Cork and Kerry area, there is only one. Will there be more numbers going into that service to help gardaí who have to attend the sites of suicides and road traffic accidents, and who may well need counselling assistance, etc., as a result? Are there enough numbers in that grouping and will they be increased?

Deputy Lawless resumed the Chair.

An Cathaoirleach

I will allow our witnesses to answer the Deputy's points. The Leas-Chathaoirleach had indicated that we would group the next couple of questions because we are under time pressure. The Minister is due before the committee shortly. I will allow Deputy Daly's questions to be answered. I will then take Deputies Pringle and Costello together. A couple of other members also want to come in. Deputy Pringle is shaking his head.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

That is very unfair. Some of the first questions took 12 or 13 minutes each. We are being told we will not even get six minutes. That is not right.

An Cathaoirleach

We will see how it goes. I am not saying the Deputy will get less than six minutes. We will see how it goes. As we all know at committee meetings, it is often the case that the opening questions can cover areas that subsequent questions would have covered.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

That has not been the case so far.

An Cathaoirleach

It can happen.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

It is very unfair.

An Cathaoirleach

I hear the Deputy's point. We will take a two-minute response to Deputy Daly's question before we move to the next questioner.

Mr. Drew Harris

I will finish up on the numbers of members who should pass out of Templemore in the incoming year. The total will be 714. We hope the numbers will grow in 2025. The training course in Templemore is conducted over 30 weeks so there is a lag between bringing those recruits through the gates of Templemore and seeing them pass out as probationary gardaí. Our estimate for this year in terms of cessations is around the same as last year. In or around 410 or 415 will leave the organisation. I will ask Ms McMahon to deal with the road policing issues.

Ms Anne Marie McMahon

On the numbers, some 50 members have extended their service. They have applied to stay on. A number of other applications are being considered currently. While we have lost quite a number of members, a number of members have stayed on. That is a positive thing and we welcome it.

Deputy Daly is absolutely right about road fatalities. This year has been horrendous on the roads. Behind each of those fatalities are families, friends and communities. We are very mindful of that. The Deputy referenced the numbers in the road policing units. The ironic thing is that the biggest regional reduction has been in the Dublin metropolitan region roads policing unit at the regional and divisional level.

However, that is not the area where we have seen the greatest spike in fatalities so it is a bit of an anomaly in that regard. As we try to address and arrest that trend, there is a huge amount of education to do between ourselves and the RSA. We are in constant contact the RSA and collaborate very well with it.

An area where probably more leverage could be gained is the use of technology - for example, average speed areas, speed zones – to change that behaviour. If we look to the Continent, we see how technology is used very effectively to win the hearts and minds of people. When they get behind the wheel, they know exactly what they are facing, whether they break a red light or breach the speed limit. There are opportunities into the future to leverage technology more.

For our own part and enforcement, while the roads policing units are one part of our enforcement strand, the men and women in the regular units – the people who work 24-7 – contribute hugely to road traffic legislation enforcement. In fact, they do more of it than the numbers confined to road traffic units. To confine the commentary to the roads policing unit is not dealing with the full picture or giving credit to the full roads policing enforcement.

Deputy Pa Daly

Is there a reason the numbers have been allowed to reduce?

Ms Anne Marie McMahon

They have reduced. However, it is against the backdrop of a lag in recruitment and competing demands with other resources – everything from community policing all the way to the various specialist units we have. There is a requirement for all of those units and we have finite resources. Roads policing, road fatalities and serious injury accidents are a very important part of the focus of our effort. I would not like to give the impression that just because the roads policing units have shrunk somewhat in numbers, that it has in any way lessened our focus and commitment to road safety.

An Cathaoirleach

I did not realise Senator Ward had not come in yet. He is up next and has six minutes.

Senator Barry Ward

I wish to put on record that as a practising barrister, I regularly appear for the Commissioner; I suspect he is unaware of this - not that I have any pecuniary interest or anything like that, but I want to declare that.

I wish to address three issues. First, I refer to legal training for gardaí who appear in the District Court. I know presenting sergeants and presenting inspectors do much of that work but it often falls on individual garda to appear in cases or, in fact, to lead cases one way or another. I feel they get inadequate training in Templemore. I have been part of that training in the past, although it was a long time ago. I feel that many newer gardaí who are pitched into the District Court are pitched in to the lion’s den very often and additional legal training would be hugely beneficial.

I ask about the average speed cameras, which are welcome. They are a good measure but it is important how and where they are deployed. One of the criticisms often made of Garda speed traps generally – I know the average speed cameras can only exist in a particular environment – is the “shooting fish in a barrel” criticism. One will see cameras and instances in my own area in Blackrock, on the Stillorgan dual carriageway, for example, where there are no accidents or fatalities on anything like a frequent basis, and we hope that will continue. A speed trap there appears to more of a revenue-generating exercise than a road safety measure. I raise two issues about the average speed cameras. First, can we make sure they have that road safety aspect foremost? Second, if there are going to be action days in the future, for example, can they still be rolled out to ensure they are still functioning on days when action is taking place in terms of fewer gardaí available?

Finally, I wish to ask about the effective measures being implemented as part of the recruitment and retention programme. In respect of keeping gardaí on the force and satisfied, what are the effective measures being put in place to do that?

Mr. Drew Harris

I will address the speed camera issue. An additional €1.2 million is being spent on the GoSafe vans for the remainder of this year and the contract for vans will increase next year. Planning is put into where those vans are placed but I would like to take this further in developing static, in effect, speed cameras and, if we can manage it as well, static average speed cameras. There are only a couple of areas in the country covered with the genuine average speed camera situation and they make a big difference. We want to extend the infrastructure and that can be done with temporary cameras and fixtures. The technology exists and we wish to apply it.

I understand the point the Senator made about shooting fish in a barrel but this is also about behaviours on the road. It is not for the individual driver to decide this is a clear stretch of road, there are not many accidents here, therefore, this speed limit is only advisory; it is not. Collisions are happening. There are many single-vehicle collisions that end up in fatalities. Very often, they are a result of excess speed. We must change drivers’ attitude to the speed they are doing on the road. That is then coupled with driving under the influence, be it drink or drugs. All of these, in terms of driver behaviour, are important. We often talk about accidents but a great majority of these are collisions where there has been some, in effect, blameworthy activity that has led to the collision occurring, and often with tragic circumstances, as we are all aware.

In respect of the recruitment and retention strategy, I will turn to Ms Cooke to set out some of the work that has been undertaken.

Ms Yvonne Cooke

On the effective measures to retain, through the exit interview process, we have been looking at some of the causal factors as to why people might seek to leave. That is with our occupational psychologist. We are about to roll that out in online surveys as well. That is one piece to try to identify earlier on to see whether there is a way we can support people, where it is appropriate, to remain in the organisation.

The Commissioner alluded to the fact we are currently developing a recruitment and retention strategy, which is being done in collaboration with the staff associations, and rightly so. They have had the opportunity to highlight issues their own membership are raising with them. I mentioned earlier the Durham survey and focus groups following that have assisted in identifying key pieces as well. That will all be put together, complemented with international and national benchmarking we have undertaken, looking at what is happening within the market force and what kind of things will assist in retention going forward. They cover everything from issues being raised by members with regard to salary and pension the whole way through to recognition, supports, leadership support and what have you. There will be a specific strategy that will be informed from the ground up. That is something we will be committing to work on for the foreseeable future.

An Cathaoirleach

I appreciate the Senator's brevity. We will move on to Deputy Pringle, who has six minutes.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

I thank the witnesses for the briefing. I have a number of questions but I will cut them short because time is limited. I will not asking many of them, which is unfortunate because I found the briefing very interesting.

I will focus on three issues. The first is the reforms taking place in the North regarding the historical investigations, the Troubles and such. The Houses of the Oireachtas has been deeply critical of this decision, and rightly so. How does An Garda Síochána currently handle, in terms of specific units, reviews and procedure of investigations, looking into similar cases in this jurisdiction? This State is not immune from the Troubles in the North and there are many victims and survivors here. How is An Garda Síochána investigating such cases and how does it engage with loved ones of those who have lost a relative? Has there been co-operation from the authorities in the North since the enactment of the legacy Bill? I ask this in the circumstances that the Commission for Victims and Survivors in Belfast recently reported that one in ten people here consider themselves victims, and figures increased in Border counties such as Donegal, Louth and Monaghan as well.

Regarding roads policing, last year, I had the pleasure of being stopped by the PSNI while driving through the North. They were able to see on their unit - I do not know what the unit they used in their car is called - that my car was not insured, but it actually was.

It turned out the Garda has not updated its systems, which talk to the PSNI systems, to tell the PSNI what the problem is here. That was the PSNI's excuse for saying it was not insured. I decided I would ask the local gardaí what the situation is here in the South. They informed me there is a handheld system or a system available that can tell what the data are and so on, but there was only one in the division and if they wanted to use it they would have to book it in advance. That seems bizarre and not a good use of resources. The PSNI system seems to be a good one and should be rolled out across the board. What is the situation with that?

The last issue is the policing of rural areas. I live in a very rural area. There may be two gardaí on duty in the area but they will be on duty in separate stations, so they are on their own. I wonder whether that is a desirable situation and when or if it will be resolved. Quite often, there is not a car available to them either, so they do not have the ability to get out and about. What is the situation with that and how will it be resolved?

Mr. Drew Harris

The Deputy will not be surprised to learn he is not the first person to raise vehicles in Donegal with me. I counted the number of vehicles and the number of personnel and we have enough vehicles that if everybody was on duty, we would still have room to spare.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

All right.

Mr. Drew Harris

They would all be able to get into a vehicle. It is then for local management, that is, the inspectors and superintendents, to decide on the distribution of vehicles and ensure vehicles are not lying up or not being used sufficiently. I also recognise we are dealing with more isolated stations and the vehicle has to be there for the Garda member to avail of it. It is not desirable that individual members are coming on duty, but in all the rural divisions where this is happening there is pretty complete supervision of that to ensure they partner off and know from where assistance is available. There is then careful management of the calls they are dealing with. Our rural policing in those more remote areas is in effect a form of community policing and much of it is done with the active support of the local community. We depend on that. We would wish to be in a position, obviously, where that did not happen but, at the same time, it is a viable community policing model we are delivering.

On the Deputy's initial question, I am very aware of the legislation that has been passed in the UK in respect of historical investigations. It has no impact on our work at this moment. We are still investigating the various outrages and terrorist offences committed in this jurisdiction. They are subject to serious case review and from that, there is communication with the family or families of loved ones. If active investigation to identification is a viable option, that carries on as well. These cases remain open and at any one time those investigations are active. I know at first hand from briefings I receive that a number of investigations remain very active in terms of inquiries. That is our responsibility in this jurisdiction. As for assistance from the PSNI, we would expect assistance and we receive assistance and if we were seeking evidence, we would follow the normal channels of mutual assistance and the delivery of evidence from the jurisdiction of anywhere in the UK. We have a reasonable expectation of assistance and mutual legal assistance in respect of these investigations and I do not see why that would change.

On the roads policing issue, the automated number plate recognition, ANPR, system we have in this jurisdiction is a different one from the one that pertains in the UK, which is fed daily by information from the insurance companies based in the UK. It is a somewhat different system here, but we have provided members with mobility devices, which are in effect the phones we provide, and some of those phones have an ANPR-type facility on them, if required operationally. We wish to extend this and that is why, in part, we have sought additional legislation to allow us do more work in respect of ANPR and the identification of vehicles, not just identifying those without insurance but vehicles that are suspected of being used for crime or that we might want to interdict as part of our investigations.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

The Commissioner says some devices are available. How many are available countrywide?

Mr. Drew Harris

I do not have that figure off the top of my head. We have over 10,000 of the mobility devices issued to Garda members. There is a particular app provided and then a tripod is needed for that to successfully read number plates, as well as additional equipment. It was my understanding that equipment was being provided to roads policing units in particular. There was a focus on roads policing detections in respect of that and the identification of individuals, so much of this is focused on roads detections. If the Deputy allows, I can get back to him on that. I do not believe there is only one device in Donegal. I would say the roads policing unit is well-----

Deputy Thomas Pringle

That is what has been said in the south Donegal area, the old Ballyshannon district.

Mr. Drew Harris

We might get back to the Deputy on that.

An Cathaoirleach

If the Commissioner or any of his team are sending information in response to members' questions, they should do so through the clerk to the committee in order that it can be circulated to all members. The witnesses should feel free to do that in response to any questions they are asked. It is always useful to get supplementary information.

Next up we have Deputy Costello, followed by Deputy Niamh Smyth. Deputy McGuinness and Senator Keogan, who are not members of the committee, are present. I will allow our visitors a speaking slot but unfortunately it will be a reduced one as we under time pressure because the Minister is due to arrive in a few moments. They may have two or three minutes each after committee members have spoken.

Deputy Patrick Costello

Given the time pressures, I will confine myself to a single issue, namely, the policing of protests. My concern is mostly around violent protest, which is not being policed effectively in any way. We have seen a rise in violent ethno-nationalist, homophobic and anti-immigration protests. If we go back to last year, Deputy Paul Murphy was assaulted outside the gates of Leinster House and it seems to many of us on the outside that nothing was done. We then saw a campaign of harassment, threats and intimidation directed towards library staff over the summer, which was allowed run rampant. We have seen an increasing level of harassment and violence towards immigrants and increasing levels of homophobic attacks. There does not seem to have been anything done about this. Unfortunately, any time I try to raise the issue, I am told it is a senior operational decision, so it seems the Garda Commissioner is the person I should be addressing questions to. I am concerned that teachers will be next. We have seen some of the same people targeting teachers in their social media tirades, so I am concerned we will see violent protest directed at schools and teachers next.

As I said, there does not seem to be proactive policing. It seems to be quite reactive. Comparisons are often drawn with when we see gardaí assisting evictions and the robust policing that comes with that. Comparisons are often made with the Debenhams workers where, again, there was very robust policing, but when it comes to assaults on Deputies and arson, we do not see the same level of policing. I note the Commissioner said those experiencing or being targeted by hate crime will be part of the next policing plan. Again, is that going to be reactive or will there be proactive elements?

It has been reported in thejournal.ie that Fórsa has stated there was a commitment to review the strategic guidance on protests. Is this going to be a full review of that strategic guidance or was it simply a reference to the review of the policing plans? It would be useful to have details of that. For me, this is about where the Commissioner is spending his budget, how much of a priority this matter is and whether he is allocating sufficient resources to it.

A lot of praise has been rightly given to community gardaí and the community-building work that is done. I know there was an inclusion forum in the past. Assistant Commissioner Paula Hilman did great work on that. Have there been any proactive steps towards reaching out to stakeholders or to victims of this new wave of violent protest and trying to put in a proactive approach? We have essentially seen an increase in the number and audacity of this violent protest, and without an effective policing response it seems to be just growing. Ultimately, at the heart of this is a very antidemocratic view of the world that is dangerous.

Mr. Drew Harris

Our approach is set out not only in the foundations of the Constitution but also in the European Convention on Human Rights, which has a lot to say about jurisprudence around the policing of protests and what is acceptable and what is not in a democratic society. What is not acceptable in a democratic society is any sense of violence, intimidation or harassment of individuals. We welcome the new legislation this week to further the strength of the harassment legislation towards stalking. We recognise very much the impact of that.

As the Deputy says, the situation has deteriorated in recent years. We probably saw the beginnings of that during Covid. Things have moved on since then and in some ways have been exacerbated, particularly given that the numbers who have reached our shores seeking international protection have brought an extra element to this. Our approach has been to police these events and to facilitate protest within the law but then to deal with those who break the law, either by arrest at the time or following through on identification and subsequent report to the DPP. I think in all the major instances that people are aware of where there has been public disorder, there have always been follow-on investigations where individuals have been reported to the DPP. That is the case in respect of not only the protest nearby on Mount Street but also the protest here on 20 September.

Individuals who have extreme views and, as the Deputy said, views which are contrary to a democratic society such as ours, have now in effect set out their stall. In that case, we know how to respond. That was made clear in terms of the policing operation that was put in place to protect the Houses of the Oireachtas on budget day. It is regrettable that we have to put out such a scale of operation, but the events of 20 September made it clear to us that it was proportionate and warranted. The protection of these Houses is a priority for us, certainly. The protection of our democracy, which includes all politicians, not only those sitting here but also local councillors, is a priority for us. We undertook to review the strategic guidance. I have reached out to various groups that have been impacted. I met with representatives of those who were particularly impacted by the protest in Cork and, as a result of that, I said to them that we would review the strategic guidance. That is already under way.

In effect, these individuals have shown their hand in recent months and we respond to that in then knowing what their intent is. That then informs the policing operation we put in place in terms of our ability to make arrests, interdict on the day and then follow through investigations. The committee can therefore be assured that we are absolutely committed to protecting people going about their legitimate business. Protest can be a very legitimate function in our society, and we have seen plenty, if not hundreds, of examples of protest every year where all these competing factors are managed. If, however, people wish to engage in breaking the law through violence, disorder and intimidation, it is our business to deal with that.

Deputy Niamh Smyth

I thank the Commissioner and the other witnesses. They are all very welcome. I thank the Commissioner for his opening statement. He referred to the sale and supply of illegal substances. He also referred to the almost 7,500 applicants to fill operational specialist support roles.

I want to ask the Commissioner specifically about specialised drugs units. I refer to the joint policing committee meetings that are held in Cavan-Monaghan and that I attend. I know the Commissioner attends such meetings. He has been on the ground and has heard from other elected representatives. Our chief there, Alan McGovern, is doing his level best to address this, but my understanding is that we do not have a drugs unit. The witnesses may contradict that or come back with other information, but I have a real concern about it. I believe we had personnel in that unit. We may have had five, it was reduced to four and at the moment it may be part of the retention and recruitment difficulties. I am not sure. I believe it is a specialised unit that is incredibly important. The constituency of Cavan-Monaghan is rural and very much in the Border area, which always presents its own difficulties and challenges around policing. It is also very attractive for that antisocial behaviour and criminality. I have a huge concern for the young people. We know it is in every GAA club and it is on the ground. What we hear relentlessly at the joint policing committee meetings is that it is happening in broad daylight, in full view of each community. I have absolute confidence that people are reporting it to our Garda stations because I know they are reporting it to my office. We are inundated with concerned parents ringing to say they can see it happening and to ask what we are doing about it and what is happening about it.

I go back to my initial point. What is the Commissioner's vision for specialised units? Does he believe they are necessary? Does he believe they are effective? Does he believe that rural constituencies such as mine can and should have one and that they are effective? Our chief replies, when asked the question by elected representatives, that it is every garda's job to address this issue. I understand that, but I still believe in my heart and soul that a specialised unit does it at another level that is incredibly important in trying to kill this epidemic we have with the sale of drugs. As I said, it is crippling our youth all over the place. Could the witnesses respond to that?

I have two other questions I would like to get out there that the witnesses could respond to all together, if that is okay. Second, again, when the Commissioner was in Cavan-Monaghan he visited what will be a new state-of-the-art Garda station for Bailieborough. I know it is a huge investment from the Garda and the OPW. It was my understanding that we would have a specialised unit there around cybercrime. Could the Commissioner confirm that this is still the case?

As regards my third question, at the weekend we read in the Mail on Sunday a piece about gun holsters for gardaí and concerns being raised about the safety of those for An Garda Síochána, given the fatality involving Detective Colm Horkan. Could the witnesses comment on that?

They are my three questions and I would appreciate the witnesses' response.

Mr. Drew Harris

I set up the drug units in late 2019 and into 2020. We did not have divisional drug units before that. That was in part our effort to try to combat local, mid-range dealers and street dealing in local areas. I am not sure about the situation in respect of the drugs unit in Cavan, but it is for the chief to make his bid into HR. Ms McMahon to my right here makes the ultimate decision about the distribution of the students. Some 150 will graduate in January and a further 170 in March, so there are good numbers starting to come out, and those numbers do make a difference-----

Deputy Niamh Smyth

Of course.

Mr. Drew Harris

-----in the divisions and allow then for lateral movement into those specialised units. We are committed to that.

The difficulty around drugs for us is that there is a huge amount of cocaine being produced and being moved across into Europe. We are very conscious that Ireland is a target for these transnational organised crime groups. I think the seizures we are making are making a difference, but still a huge amount of drugs are reaching our shores.

Deputy Niamh Smyth

But is it the Commissioner's intention to still have these drugs units-----

Mr. Drew Harris

Yes.

Deputy Niamh Smyth

-----or are we looking at doing it differently?

Mr. Drew Harris

No, I believe in the drug units in terms of the intelligence and the successes they have on the local level. I have to couple that with the Criminal Assets Bureau, CAB, and the local assessments that are done in respect of individuals' proceeds of crime and then using CAB not just for the Mr. Bigs, but also pursuing those whose income from drug dealing on a local level is all around acquired wealth such as watches, cars or in some cases, handbags etc. We take away those trappings of wealth from individuals. We are entirely committed to that.

Deputy Niamh Smyth

If I am correct in my information we do not have that specialised unit at the moment because of promotions and people moving on to other positions. Can we look at re-establishing that again?

Mr. Drew Harris

That is a decision for the local chief. He needs to make the bid. We have to manage the resources that we have but our resource pool is growing so all of us are in a better place now. We have turned the corner, we can see that our resource pool is growing. In January we will see another 150 Garda members graduate from Templemore. They will be very welcome. That is on top of the 124 who graduated last month. The organisation has turned this corner in terms of resourcing. Coupled with a roster that better meets the policing demand, these are big-impact issues for us.

Deputy Niamh Smyth

Can Mr. Harris quickly answer the other two questions?

Mr. Drew Harris

I understand the Garda National Cyber Crime Bureau is still going to Bailieborough. A safety holster was introduced following the murder of Colm Horkan. The introduction of a safety holster made it more difficult for a firearm to be removed from what had just been a front break holster.

Deputy Niamh Smyth

I thank Mr. Harris.

An Cathaoirleach

That concludes the members' questions, but I have two guest Members of the Oireachtas who are not members of this committee. They are welcome and they are entitled to be here. We are pressed for time so I will allow two minutes each for Deputy McGuinness and Senator Keogan.

Deputy John McGuinness

Normally I would not come into a committee of which I am not a full member but I am so concerned about the issues I am going to raise that when I saw it on the monitor I decided to come in. The Commissioner said it is up to the local chief to make a bid. I actually think that is quite a disturbing statement to make because I would say it is up to the Commissioner to make sure the local chief has the staff and the capability and actively goes after those who are criminally of interest to the force and that are known to be carrying out activities around the movement of drugs. That is why I am here. The drugs issue in the south east is horrendous. Any class of drug can be bought on any street corner now, in most small villages throughout the country. That is not acceptable. It is doing huge damage to communities that cooperate with the police. I would normally raise this matter at the local policing forum. This is not acceptable. How is the Commissioner going to address it?

I raised the issue of policing in south Kilkenny with the Commissioner was in Kilkenny some time ago. I want to know what is happening in relation to the bigger towns of Kilmoganny, Windgap, Bennetsbridge and so on where they had Garda stations and now do not. They have policing by appointment. What is the public support in relation to that? What is the arrangement around that in terms of allowing the public to access the policing service? What is the Commissioner going to do to restore the confidence of the public in the south Kilkenny area arising from the lack of gardaí?

In regard to tax, insurance and road issues just let me say this. I have seen cars with no tax, no insurance, no NCT and probably no licence driven by foreign nationals. The gardaí know them. I have not seen any of them prosecuted. I have not seen any of them arrested and I am disturbed by it.

In regard to missing persons, this Thursday is the anniversary to the day, when on 9 November 1995 JoJo Dullard went missing. Can the Commissioner please update us on the strategy in relation to the continual investigations of all missing persons and what he is doing about them? In regard to suspended civil servants from the force, how many are there and what is the status of each one?

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Deputy. I call Senator Keogan and will take a group response, and then we will close this session.

Senator Sharon Keogan

I thank the Cathaoirleach for allowing me in. The Commissioner is very welcome.

In regard to the Garda station in Meath east, around the Laytown and Bettystown area, is a vital piece of infrastructure that we need there on the coast. The current one is in the middle of a housing estate and is totally unsuitable for the needs of the growing population on the east coast.

In regard to drug intimidation supports for families, many young fellows, and these days many young women, and their families are in huge debt because of drug dealing. A great deal of intimidation is going on. People have to sell their houses to get out of debt. What supports are there for families? On supports for victims of human trafficking, what is the procedure for the victims when someone reports they have been trafficked into this country? What does An Garda Síochána do?

In regard to the body cameras legislation coming to the Seanad tomorrow, the calibration of these cameras is extremely important. The current cameras that would have AMPR, or any recording device need to calibrated. It is a cost to the State but if it is not calibrated that evidence cannot be used in court, if it is not doing what it is supposed to be doing. Having the system calibrated, making sure that it is working correctly, is really important.

Regarding recruitment, this is a serious issue for young recruits when they are sent to Dublin or any of the major cities, because accommodation is probably one of the biggest drawbacks for An Garda Síochána. Is there any way that a number of the stations in the Dublin area can be amalgamated so that one of those stations can be converted into accommodation for Garda recruits and officers?

The revolving door system that exists there in relation to the Irish Prison Service is unbelievable. In June 2023 there were 4,651 people in prison of whom 182 were on mattresses. There is a huge overcrowding issue in our prisons. The overcrowding rate in Clover Hill is at 110%, Mountjoy it is 100% and in Limerick it is 108%.

An Cathaoirleach

We are tight for time but also the prisons do not come under the Commissioner's remit.

Senator Sharon Keogan

Do they not? It is a shame they do not because they should. The Ministry should be in here-----

An Cathaoirleach

We have had other sessions.

Senator Sharon Keogan

Alright well I apologise for that question.

An Cathaoirleach

We might just wrap up there.

Senator Sharon Keogan

Can I just finish with automatic number plate recognition, ANPR? ANPR is probably one of the most vital tools that An Garda Síochána can use. We had it on a system in Duleek as part of a community CCTV programme but had to take it off because of the regulations. The Commissioner asked us to take it off. It was a shame because it is a quick way to solve crime. It is easy to get ANPR if you want to take money from people. It is on the toll bridges and every toll point in this country but it cannot be provided to protect the people of the nation. ANPR is vitally important so I would like to know the Commissioner's views on that.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Senator and Deputy McGuinness. I will take the block questions as a group.

Mr. Drew Harris

I might get back to the members with written responses on some of those issues. In regard to Laytown, that is on the programme for a rebuild.

We have a specific operation in place to support families in terms of intimidation around so-called drugs debts. We place a big emphasis on that both at divisional and national level in terms of detecting those involved in such intimidation. The offence of drug intimidation does not exist on the books but often we have made detections in respect of individuals who are on their route to conduct some form of violent attack on individuals. It is not by any means an area on which we do not put a great deal of effort. We are very conscious of the heavy and detrimental impact around drugs intimidation.

A new initiative was announced this week to support victims of human trafficking. This is moving from An Garda Síochána to an independent entity through the Department of Justice. One of the defects that was identified internationally was that in effect police have to investigate the crime of human trafficking. Welfare supports are better provided by some other entity. Ireland has moved into mainstream best practice in terms of response to that. We are very supportive of that. This was only announced this week.

The issue of body-worn cameras is related to ANPR. Along with body-worn cameras, we are also seeking legislation around digital evidence. This would include ANPR and CCTV systems and the ability to access those. You also need a database to check those numbers against and live information. This is all part of this digital evidence Bill that is being considered. Body-worn cameras are very important for us in terms of protecting members, but a body-worn camera is about the evidence - what is happening in front of them. A speed camera is a different thing and that is the piece that requires careful calibration around the identification of speeding.

All of us recognise the significant impact of the drugs trade. We are doing our utmost at international level to combat transnational organised crime gangs and at national level around seizures and seizures of assets. Between our efforts, the efforts of the Revenue Commissioners, international efforts and the work of CAB, we have a very good system here. On the other hand, significant amounts of cocaine are being pushed towards Europe and we are regarded as a profitable market for drugs. I do not think there is enough public education on the damage caused by drugs and the risk of addiction. Its huge destructive impact on society here and in countries of production has been somewhat downplayed.

I think I need to come back with a written response to the question on missing persons because each case is different. I have been very active in making sure each of those has been reviewed, and some have been lifted to murder investigations. Perhaps this should have happened some time ago but we are working through and are active in respect of that.

Deputy John McGuinness

What about people driving without tax and insurance and policing in south Kilkenny?

An Cathaoirleach

The Commissioner might come back in writing on that. Is that okay? The Commissioner will follow up some questions today. If he could send them through the clerk, they will be circulated to all members so everybody gets a copy. They will certainly be of interest to our members so it would be appreciated if the Commissioner could do those follow ups. That concludes this part of the meeting. I will ask members to remain because the Minister will be here in a moment. I thank the Commissioner, Ms McMahon, Ms Willis and Ms Cooke for their attention. This has been a very important session. There was focus on training today. The Commissioner may be aware that the committee will visit the Garda Training College in Templemore in the near future. I am not sure if we will see him on the day but we will certainly see some of his team. I understand that Chief Superintendent Pat Murray is due to retire a couple of days ahead of our visit. I do not know if we spooked him or whether he was going anyway.

Mr. Drew Harris

The committee is very welcome. We are very proud of our training facility, our liaison with other universities in particular and the standard of training. The committee's visit is very welcome and it would be a good practical example of the effort that goes into training and skills in An Garda Síochána. We are internationally recognised. It is hoped the committee will see that as well.

An Cathaoirleach

We are looking forward to that. It will be a good engagement. We will move swiftly on because the Minister is due to join us. I thank the Commissioner and appreciate him giving of his time today.

Sitting suspended at 6.14 p.m. and resumed at 6.18 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

We are still in public session. I welcome the Minister and her team to the meeting. The Minister is familiar with procedure here so I do not need to go through that. Time is tight as we have an absolute cut-off point of 7 p.m. because the meeting will have lasted three hours by then and that is the cut-off point. I propose to allow members five minutes each for their contributions. The Minister's opening statement has been circulated to members, so if members are happy to take that as read, we can go straight into questions. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Alan Farrell

The Garda representative bodies and the Garda Commissioner appeared before us concerning morale in An Garda Síochána, recruitment, retention and other matters that are of paramount importance to all members of this committee, so I want to give the Minister an opportunity to touch on them because they are critical issues. Interlaced with all of that is the output of An Garda Síochána, particularly community safety and community safety plans. I know the Minister has launched new initiatives in recent months that we would like to see rolled out nationwide. They have been rolled out in two or three communities. The Minister, her Department and the Garda Commissioner have been doing some work on the policing of events, especially those outside the Houses of the Oireachtas.

There have been some horrific ones, particularly outside the Houses. I was not present for them but I understand from colleagues that one event was particularly vociferous. It is important to know the security of the House as a democratic institution is protected. I know a review was to take place. If the Minister could provide us with an update on that, it would be appreciated.

Deputy Helen McEntee

I thank the Deputy for his questions. With regard to recruitment, retention and morale, I have consistently said that I take my role in supporting An Garda Síochána, making sure we have as many of gardái as possible and that they are supported in the work, extremely seriously. My number one priority when it comes to An Garda Síochána is ensuring that we have as many members in the force as possible and that they are supported. We have obviously had a very challenging time with regard to recruitment. The Garda college closed in 2014. The Government then reopened the college and we saw a steady increase in numbers. Unfortunately due to Covid-19, we then had to close the college again. I am pleased that we are making inroads and starting to see momentum building again in our overall figures. This year alone, funding has been provided for between 800 and 1,000 recruits or as many as can go through the college. That is the overall objective here.

There were 126 new Garda members at the most recent attestation I attended, following the passing out of over 100 gardaí earlier this year. We have 240 gardaí attested so far this year and 177 new trainees entered Templemore College last month, meaning there are almost 500 in the system currently. We will have another round of recruits coming out later this year. While we will not quite reach the 1,000 target we all hoped to achieve, we are getting closer to a figure of over 800. I hope that momentum will continue next year.

Ensuring there are applicants is very important, which is why I was pleased that the Minister for Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, was able to increase the training allowance in the budget by two thirds, from €184, the rate for many years, to €305. This is a reflection of the fact that many people are joining the Garda later on in life. They have many commitments, not just families but mortgages and other bills they have to pay. There is an acknowledgment there that while recruits are training, they need to be able to pay those bills and fulfil those commitments.

We have increased the recruitment age limit, which has been 35 for many years, having increased from 26 years. The age limit will be changed in the next recruitment campaign to 50 years, acknowledging that people are fitter and living longer, healthier lives, and that many change career later in life. Bringing that wealth of experience into the force is extremely important.

I take it very seriously when Garda members leave. I know the Deputy had a discussion with the Garda Commissioner around the number of retirements we have had. We have to acknowledge that this has been for a variety of reasons, including a full workforce, people changing careers later in life, as I mentioned, and also the challenges of the job. In addition to the work the Garda is doing through exit interviews and the plans that have been put in place, as we heard from Ms Yvonne Cooke, my focus is to make sure that whether it is resources, funding, changes to legislation or investment in mental health supports, that will be done. In the past week, we have increased sentences for assaulting a member of An Garda Síochána from seven to 12 years, which sends a clear message that we take very seriously any type of an assault against a member of the Garda. There is also investment in mental health supports, which was further increased in this year's budget, to acknowledge the stress, strain and pressure that gardaí are under.

I do not doubt for a second that there are challenges and difficulties within An Garda Síochána. If funding, additional members, changes to legislation or better supports and resources for them are needed, that is my role. I am absolutely committed to that. With a budget of €2.31 billion, I hope that commitment is very clear.

On community safety, I will address a broad number of questions that I am sure will be asked. We are rolling out the community safety partnerships. We have three pilots under way in Waterford, Longford and Dublin's inner city, respectively. This is an acknowledgment that community safety is not just a role for An Garda Síochána. It has a significant part to play in this. These partnerships are about bringing together all members of our community, looking at where we have vulnerable people in our community and where we need to invest in infrastructure, education, supports, resources, better youth education, facilities. They allow individual communities to put in place plans that fit and can adapt to their individual circumstances. Three community plans have been published and are being worked on in those three areas. This includes everything from more gardaí and community safety wardens in areas to making investments in mental health supports and making better connections between education providers, Tusla and An Garda Síochána, as well as work that local authorities need to do. The plan is that next year, all counties will see the roll-out of community safety partnerships. These will replace the joint policing committees. This will be an opportunity for members of the community and all of the agencies working with An Garda Síochána to play an important role in community safety.

With regard to policing events and the various protests that have taken place, a significant number of protests have taken place this year. To the end of October, there had been 704 different protests, ranging from right-wing extremist protests to smaller protests and the protests we have seen outside the Houses. I support An Garda Síochána's gradual response and the way in which it is responding to these protests. While I acknowledge that some protests have gained greater traction and have been more visible, the fact that we are not been aware of the vast majority of the 704 protests that have been policed over the year shows how well An Garda Síochána is able to respond. I appreciate that some have become more violent and aggressive. We must trust those who are trained in responding to those types of scenarios to be able to respond in the most effective way possible.

In saying that, I have asked the Garda Commissioner to do a review, as the Deputy specifically asked, in respect of Deputies and Senators working in Leinster House, those who support us and work with us here, including ushers, and councillors and elected representatives. It is imperative that people can go about their work without fear. That review is under way and we expect that members of the committee will be able to engage with it. Work has been done through the Ceann Comhairle and many others but there is more we can do to ensure the safety of Members and those who work with and support us. Once that review concludes, I will then be able to respond, and the Garda Commissioner will do so in time.

Deputy Niamh Smyth

I compliment the Minister on her work on domestic and gender-based violence. She has been relentless on the issue and in providing women's refuges around the country, as well as the funding to back them up. There have been difficulties and challenges in the past with various Departments, specifically the Departments of Social Protection, Justice and Housing, Local Government and Heritage, having different responsibilities for women in the area of domestic violence. The Minister has done incredible work to try to bring all of that together.

I would like an update from the Minister. I have convened a number of meetings to campaign for a much-needed women's refuge for Cavan-Monaghan because we do not have one. I have convened a number of meetings with Safe Ireland, Tusla, An Garda Síochána and our chief superintendent, and the housing departments of Cavan and Monaghan county councils. There is incredible goodwill to deliver refuges and I know the Minister has allocated money to provide spaces to do so. Can she give us an insight into where that work is at the moment?

Deputy Helen McEntee

I thank the Deputy. I know she is particularly focused on and prioritises the safety of women and children and all those who are victims of domestic and sexual violence. A huge amount of work is under way to put in place structures that will outlive me or any other Member of the House and to ensure we can continue to prioritise domestic and sexual violence, develop refuge accommodation for victims, provide a mechanism by which counties - whether there are people on the ground driving it or not - can develop a refuge where one is not currently in situ and expand or develop services or ancillary supports where those are needed. That work is being done by the Department, working with the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, and Tusla, which until recently had sole responsibility for the delivery of refuge accommodation.

In the interim, because this is obviously beyond the current strategy, we have developed a longer term plan to achieve the figures set out in the Istanbul Convention. We have set out the initial targets and Cavan-Monaghan is an area that has been identified as a priority. Funding is being allocated to put in place special advisers or teams that can bring together the work being done to help push applications forward, identify and purchase sites and work with local authorities, Safe Ireland and other organisations on the ground to get projects to the point where they can apply for funding through the capital assistance scheme, CAS.

Deputy Niamh Smyth

Has one been appointed for the Cavan and Monaghan area yet?

Deputy Helen McEntee

Not yet. Specific funding has been allocated in this year's budget in respect of the roll-out more of these. Last year, funding was provided for three projects under way in Dundalk, Wexford and County Meath. Additional funding in this year's budget will allow for more individuals to work in these key priority areas. The budget was only introduced a few weeks ago, and we are still working through it. Focus is being placed on ensuring the rapid development of areas where we do not have refuges or accommodation and, in the interim, how we can put in place safe houses. There are different types of accommodation for those who are immediately in danger. There are also types of accommodation for where there is less of an immediate danger. Safe houses are also available to women and children who perhaps cannot stay at home or who do not want to be at home.

Under the zero-tolerance strategy, work is under way to look at how we can make changes to ensure the victim is not the person who has to leave the home. This was looked at previously. There is a challenge that has come up time and time again. I firmly believe that those who are perpetrating the violence should be the ones to leave. This does mean that accommodation has to be found elsewhere in a different way. It is important that women and children in particular should be able to stay in the home. The more refuge we need, the bigger problem it is. We need to look at this in both ways. I can give the Deputy a specific time and update on her area. I do not have it with me because we were focusing on the areas for discussion today. I have a very clear graph of where properties have been bought and where there is engagement with local authorities. We will be able to provide this to Deputy Smyth in more detail.

Deputy Niamh Smyth

I thank the Minister.

Senator Barry Ward

We had engagement with the Commissioner earlier and one of the big issues that came up was the recruitment and retention of gardaí. In some respects the Garda is a victim of the successful employment situation whereby there are many options for people with the skills that gardaí have. An issue that arises in my area is the cost of housing. For gardaí at Blackrock Garda station in south Dublin, at Dún Laoghaire Garda station or any other Garda station in the area, housing is very expensive. None of the gardaí lives in the area, and this is an issue. At the same time, the OPW sold the former Kill o' the Grange Garda station to Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council and it is still vacant and unused. As far as I know, the former Garda station in Dalkey is still in the possession of the OPW but it is not being used for anything substantial. There is an opportunity for these buildings to be used to house gardaí who cannot afford housing.

By the same token, when we go outside Dublin to rural areas, and I have family in west Galway, they do not have a garda living within 20 miles of them. When I was young, there used to be a garda in the village of Leenaun in Connemara. There was a Garda station in the village and a sergeant lived in the village with his family. Even if he was not on duty he was available. The people there now have to call Clifden, which is 20 miles away. It takes time for gardaí to respond to whatever incident might occur. Is there a way in which buildings in rural areas that are vacant could be taken over by An Garda Síochána and used to house gardaí for free or at a preferential rate? This could also be done in areas where housing is available or potentially available. It would be not so much so that gardaí are manning a station in the area but so they are living in the community and, therefore, available to the community if an emergency arises.

I know the Minister is acutely aware of the issue of the visibility of policing. I acknowledge that the bulk of the most recent recruits from Templemore have come to Dublin and this is welcome. I know from speaking to business in the Dublin area that they feel there has been an improvement in attitudes and how people feel. People must feel safe as well as being safe. I do not accept that Dublin is a dangerous place. I say this as somebody who is in the city centre every day. I walked down O'Connell Street today. This does not mean that people are wrong to feel unsafe. We need to address this and visible policing is certainly the way to do so. I hope that the bulk of the next group who come out of Templemore will also be allocated to Dublin to make sure we can continue in the vein of putting visible policing on the streets so people can feel they are being properly policed and properly looked after by An Garda Síochána. I believe they are but let us make sure they feel they are.

I cannot let the moment pass without mentioning criminal legal aid. I acknowledge the work done in the budget. A restoration of 10% is only a fraction of what should and can be done. I say this in circumstances where I am a practising criminal barrister and a recipient of criminal legal aid. It is not about me but about junior barristers who are leaving criminal law because they cannot make a living in it. I reiterate this to the Minister even though I know I have said it several times previously.

Deputy Helen McEntee

I acknowledge what was done in the budget only goes a certain way towards restoration for the work that is being done in criminal law by many barristers. As part of the increase in the budget I have committed to a full review to look at the overall service being provided. This may bring about different changes, not least to how the fees and structures are implemented and applied. We have committed to this and work is under way already to engage in this regard.

With regard to visibility and people feeling safe and being safe, if people do not feel safe it does not matter how many gardaí we have or what resources we put in place. A feeling is often as challenging and can create fear. We need to make sure we have this visibility. Often, it is visibility that reduces people's sense of feeling unsafe. Senator Ward mentioned the number of gardaí who have come to Dublin. Out of the past two attestations, 151 gardaí have gone to Dublin. This is not to say gardaí in Dublin were not transferred and redeployed to other areas as they were but overall these figures are an acknowledgement of the particular pressures faced by the city centre of the capital city with its large population base. Over time, we want to see a steady flow every three months of up to 200 gardaí coming out of the college and not to have one area prioritised but to spread the numbers evenly across the country. This requirement for visibility is needed not only in Dublin city centre but also throughout the country.

In the context of buildings in rural areas, a very small number of gardaí live in accommodation attached to a station. There are no plans as such at present to house gardaí or to place gardaí in large dormitory-style buildings or in accommodation similar to that in the college. This is not to say that it cannot happen. We face the same challenges as many other sectors and organisations in the capital city, and the same as we would see in every other capital city in the world, with increased costs for housing. This brings about challenges. The reason for increasing the training allowance is to acknowledge there are increased costs for people. When members go out to work as part of their training they receive a fee per day. This is an acknowledgement of the increased costs. It is a challenge when members are deployed to Dublin. There is an increased cost for them. It is a challenge that everybody faces. It would need a collective response if we were to put in place a particular measure. This is not to say that where we have buildings or vacant properties, they might not be used but there are no plans at present to do so.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

I thank the Minister for her presentation. Earlier, the Commissioner gave us some figures. Approximately 60,000 individuals have been arrested by the Garda so far in 2023. This amounts to 1.2% of the population having been arrested so far this year. This sounds remarkably high. Is it high? Perhaps the Minister or the departmental officials might be able to answer this. The Commissioner also outlined that 248,000 charges and summonses were created and issued. Of these, 92,000 were in Dublin, which is 37% of the overall amount. This is probably par for the course given the size of Dublin compared to the rest of the country. Are these figures high or are they normal? What is the story with them?

The Minister said that new laws have increased the maximum sentence for assaulting a member of An Garda Síochána and other on duty emergency workers from seven to 12 years to make it clear we will not tolerate assaults on gardaí. Prior to this, how many people had been sentenced to seven years for assaulting gardaí?

What I am getting at is that, very often, we decide to increase the amount of time people will spend in jail for a certain offence or to create a new law. I wonder whether we have to do that all of the time. Surely there is enough legislation on the Statute Book to allow the Garda to do its job, as the Minister would imagine. I am wondering why that is always seen as the right response. Is it just a need to be seen to be doing something?

Deputy Helen McEntee

We will have to come back to the Deputy on some of those. I do not have details of the number of people who have received a maximum sentence to date but I am sure we can get that information through the courts. In increasing the sentence, I have acknowledged and recognised the severity of assaulting a member of An Garda Síochána or any other emergency worker. While we have increased the maximum penalty, not every person who is charged and found guilty will receive the maximum penalty. However, the threshold is increased, which allows for flexibility and the application of a greater sentence by the judge, if he or she deems that necessary. It will not deter everybody because, while you would have assumed a prison sentence of seven years would deter a lot of people, as we have seen clearly today, the number of assaults has increased. We need to do this in conjunction with other measures. That is why the body-worn cameras are extremely important. If people believe that the evidence will not be there or that they will not be prosecuted, even with a seven-year sentence, they are more likely to commit an assault. However, if they believe that a garda is wearing a body-worn camera that will capture evidence strong enough to potentially put them in prison for 12 years, they will be more likely to change their behaviour.

It is about introducing a number of different measures but it is also about respect for An Garda Síochána. The work community gardaí do is very important in this regard. They engage with our communities, new communities and young people in educational settings. Making sure they are seen as members of the community, part of the community and there to support the community will, in itself, help to bring about change. In recent years, for whatever reason, there has been a shift. The views of some have changed and there has been a lack of respect for An Garda Síochána. We need to do everything we can to reverse that trend. That means engaging with young people at a much earlier age. The Garda is part of that. As I have said, the work community gardaí do in our schools is really important in that regard.

On the overall numbers of people arrested, the types of charges and the percentage in Dublin, which I would expect to be higher, without the figures in front of me as to how many were arrested in previous years, I am afraid I cannot compare but I can certainly come back to the Deputy directly with the overall figures. I apologise; I just do not have them.

Deputy Pa Daly

I thank the Minister for coming in. Over the last year, there has been a lot of talk about the reduction in numbers. The Minister would accept that the numbers have dropped from a high of 14,500-odd to under 14,000 now.

Deputy Helen McEntee

I do, although they are higher than they were in 2015. While we have increased and dropped, I hope we will increase again.

Deputy Pa Daly

At the same time, the resignations have also been an issue. There were 72 in 2019, 69 in 2020 and 109 in 2022. To the end of September this year, that figure has increased to 114. The Minister will accept that this figure is going in the other direction and that resignations are on the increase.

Deputy Helen McEntee

Yes, we have a higher number this year but that needs to be taken in the round in the context of various different matters.

Deputy Pa Daly

In addition, many gardaí I know are buying back their pension and leaving early. This means that, in addition to the resignations, retirements are accelerated because people are leaving early. That seems to be the case. I am not necessarily referring to the Minister herself but a succession of Ministers came before the Dáil in the early to middle part of this year to tell us that 289 had entered Templemore up to the end of June. If you do the maths on that, you see there was no way the figure of 1,000 was going to be reached and yet Ministers, including an Taoiseach, came into the Dáil and said that 1,000 was the target, although it might be difficult to meet. Would it not have been more realistic for the Government to hold its hands up in the middle of the summer and say that it was not going to meet the target rather than sticking to the line that it hoped to meet the figure of 1,000 extra gardaí? It was simply not going to happen that 1,000 gardaí would go through Templemore this year.

Deputy Helen McEntee

I can only speak for myself but I made it clear as the year went on that the target was 1,000 but that it would be difficult to reach. The numbers I outlined at the outset, which include those who have been attested, who have gone through the college and who will be in the college, will be close to, if not beyond, 800 for this year. It is not the figure of 1,000, as I have been saying for some time, but, when the college reopened following its closure in 2014, it took two or three years to get sufficient momentum to get 700 or 800 going through the college. In a year and a half, we have managed to get to a point where, by the end of this year, we should have over 800. Obviously, we are looking at a similar figure for next year. There will be a new recruitment campaign in January and I anticipate that we will continue to see the numbers increasing over the next number of months.

Deputy Pa Daly

Even at the end of July, the Taoiseach was saying the figure would be hard to meet. Would it not have inspired more confidence and been more credible if he had said, at that stage, we were not going to make it?

Deputy Helen McEntee

There is no harm in people being ambitious. When the Taoiseach said it would be hard to meet, that was the case at the time. I have clearly said that we will not meet that target but the fact that we are most likely going to surpass 800 between those who have gone through the college, those in the college and those coming into the college this year is an indication of the momentum we are building. There are many people who want to join An Garda Síochána. That is evident in the number of people who have applied to the recruitment campaign in recent months.

Deputy Pa Daly

On Garda presence, many senior gardaí were asking about the Garda Reserve regulations earlier on, also in the middle of the summer. I see from the Minister's opening statement that we will now not be ready to recruit until next year. Does the Minister accept that her Department was slow to get those regulations out and that it would have helped us have a bigger presence on the streets of the capital city and other cities if those regulations had been pushed out a bit more quickly?

Deputy Helen McEntee

The regulations are now out for consultation. A number of the representative bodies have come back on them but some have not yet. We are still waiting on some of the organisations to give their views on the regulations. Once we have all of those in, we will move as quickly as possible. A Garda recruitment campaign will start early in the new year and it is important that we do not have a Garda Reserve campaign starting at the same time. The regulations are out for consultation. I obviously want the responses to come back in as quickly as possible. We have responses from some bodies. The regulations are with the Policing Authority, senior management and the representative organisations.

Deputy Pa Daly

Does the Minister know what quarter of next year those regulations will be ready and we will be ready to recruit?

Deputy Helen McEntee

Once we have the feedback from the organisations, we can move on the new regulations. As I have said, it is important that we do not have a Garda recruitment campaign at the same as a reserve recruitment campaign and that there be some period of time between them.

Deputy Pa Daly

Can the Minister even give a specific quarter?

Deputy Helen McEntee

It is intended that the Garda recruitment campaign will be early in the new year and that the reserve campaign will be very soon after that.

Deputy Pa Daly

I will move to my final question. Two weeks ago, the representative bodies came before the committee and said they had found it difficult to arrange meetings with the Minister. Does she have any comment to make in that regard?

Deputy Helen McEntee

I meet with the representative organisations in formal settings but I also meet with them in informal settings at many different events throughout the year. I meet with them in the same way as any other Minister has met with them over the years. I also attend their national conferences. I therefore do engage with them but, at the same time, I am not their employer so I work and engage directly with the Garda Commissioner who, with his team, engages with the various different associations regularly. I do engage with the associations and meet them not only in formal settings but very informally at many different events throughout the year.

Senator Robbie Gallagher

The Minister is welcome here this afternoon. From the discussions today and from the discussions with the representative associations a couple of weeks ago, it is clear that there are problems within An Garda Síochána as regards recruitment and retention. That can be taken as a given. The members of this committee deserve credit for arranging, through the secretariat, these discussions today and, indeed, two weeks ago. In her presentation, the Minister mentioned that 240 gardaí have attested this year. That is 240 gardaí who are fully trained and who have all the powers that other gardaí have. That figure is worrying when one considers that an average of 500 are going out the exit door between natural retirements and premature resignations.

That is a concern for me and I am wondering what the pipeline is like for gardaí that will be attested in 2024 and the following year.

To follow on from Deputy Daly's comments, one of the things that I have learned from the row that erupted relating to rosters, is that it would be very beneficial for the Minister of the day - not just the current Minister - to have quarterly or twice-yearly meetings with the Garda representative associations so that we can keep on top of the issues and do not end up in a situation where we have a recruitment and retention issue. This has not all happened during the current Minister's tenure and I am not suggesting that for one moment but we need a more hands-on approach from the Minister of the day to address these issues before we end up in what everybody would now accept is a crisis situation with regard to recruitment and retention in An Garda Síochána. That covers a broad range of issues, including pensions, terms of employment, assaults and so on. It seems that some people have been asleep at the wheel and this has been allowed to fester. We are now in a situation where everyone is throwing around the word "crisi"s. If there were regular meetings with the representative associations, these issues could be flagged in time and perhaps, in some cases, addressed. Perhaps not all of the issues could be addressed but a forum like that would be very welcome and I would certainly support it.

Deputy Helen McEntee

It is important to stress, regarding my own engagement with the representative associations, and the relationship between the Minister for Justice and those associations, that the Garda Commissioner is the head of An Garda Síochána. The Commissioner and his senior management meet and engage with the representative organisations on a regular basis, as should be the case. I, as Minister, then meet with the Garda Commissioner on a regular basis and, obviously, where concerns are raised or issues arise, they are relayed to me. Separate to that, in another layer, I meet on a formal basis with the representative associations. I attend their conferences and respond to and engage with them on issues they raise. I work very closely with them in that regard. We have a conciliation council that deals with other matters, involving members of my own Department as well as the Departments of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, and Finance. There is continuous engagement between departmental officials and officials in An Garda Síochána. There are many different layers and ways in which engagement happens on a continuous basis. As I said, I meet informally with many of the representative organisations and members themselves. Often the best feedback someone will get comes from a member in a Garda station when visiting or popping in to a station in their own constituency. They can find out what is happening, what is going on on the ground and what is the feeling of members. There are many different ways in which I, as Minister, can receive feedback but I do meet with them regularly and certainly, the issues they raise are not forgotten but are worked on throughout the year. I will respond to them but also to the Garda Commissioner more generally.

When it comes to recruitment and retention, as I have said time and time again, nothing is off the table. We have increased the entry age and I hope, in the weeks to come, to be able to extend the retirement age for members. I have mentioned the training allowance and the investment in gardaí more generally in terms of supports for them personally but also in equipment and technology. A huge amount is being spent on ICT to help them do their job more efficiently. We cannot ignore the fact that the college was closed because of Covid-19 and I am absolutely confident that we would have at least 1,000 more members now than we currently have if the college had remained open. That said, it was closed for very good health reasons and I cannot change that, as much as I would like to. What I can do is make sure that the momentum is built as quickly as possible and while the figures for those being fully attested this year are only 200 so far, we know that those going into the college and those in training by the end of the year will be approximately 800. That is a positive number and if we continue to move in that direction, the overall numbers will start to increase. We did dip and we went below the 14,000. We are at approximately 14,000 now, not including our civilian staff. I hope with that building momentum of numbers coming through, we will start to see the numbers increase more generally. As I said, we have more numbers now than we had in 2015 but, obviously, they increased significantly with the increased recruitment when the college reopened. They have dipped now because of Covid and we need to see them increase more. A target of 15,000 was set but I do not believe it is high enough. We need to go beyond that and the Garda Commissioner has said that very clearly and I am sure everybody here would agree. A lot of work is being done and much of it has come from the representative groups and organisations. Those changes have taken time but they are coming to fruition now.

An Cathaoirleach

The last member to speak is Deputy Ó Riordáin and following his contribution, I will invite both of our guests, Deputy McGuinness and Senator Keoghan, to come in at the end, with a five-minute slot between them.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I welcome the Minister. We had a good engagement with the Garda Commissioner and his officials and we hope to have a good engagement with her as well. Similar to others, I want to talk about morale in An Garda Síochána. Does the Minister feel there is a morale problem? According to the statistics, in 2013, there were 26 resignations from An Garda Síochána; in 2018, the number was 77; but up to September of this year, there were 114 resignations. I understand that number has increased since we had the Garda representative associations before us recently. Is that not a clear indication of a serious morale issue within an Garda Síochána, that people just want to get out, notwithstanding what Deputy Daly said about people buying out their pensions? I ask the Minister to speak to the issue of morale.

The second issue relates to the number of people charged this year for the possession of drugs for their own personal use. I am going to keep raising this as long as I have breath in my body. The figure for 2023 is 6,396 but, in 2017, that number was 3,692. We have seen an almost doubling of the number of people who have been charged with possession of drugs for personal use, not for supply. The Garda Commissioner gives the impression that some of these people may be supplying drugs and that is the mechanism they use to carry them around so that they are under the threshold for what is considered to be personal use. However, if there is that number of people in the criminal justice system, is that not a complete and utter waste of everybody's time? Father Peter McVerry and others have spoken about young people who come before the courts for the possession of cannabis worth €2 getting criminal sanctions. Is it not time to radically overhaul that approach? Would Garda time not be better spent tackling the dealers and traders in the drugs industry rather than the people who clearly have addiction issues, who do not belong in a courtroom and who should not be interacting with gardaí or judges? They should be dealt with in a completely different way. We are led to believe by the Government that the system was effectively changed in 2017 but the statistics give a lie to that.

I ask the Minister to respond on the clear morale issue within An Garda Síochána, which is leading so many people to leave the force, and the issue of the mounting number of people who are getting charged for possession of drugs for their own personal use, which is clogging up the criminal justice system, wasting everybody's time and doing no good for people who actually have addiction issues.

Deputy Helen McEntee

On the first question, I do not for a second shy away from the fact that it is an extremely challenging job. The work that gardaí do, as the Commissioner alluded to earlier, has become more challenging. There have been more attacks on members and the types of incidents that gardaí have to respond to are hugely traumatic. There is also the fact that there has been a huge amount of change in the organisation in a relatively short period, much of which has come from the recommendations of the Commission on the Future of Policing that were made for very obvious reasons. Furthermore, we do not have as many members as we should have, given the increase in our population. We also have on ongoing industrial relations dispute. There are many challenges and I do not for a second doubt that all of that, collectively, is having an impact on certain members. That said, I meet gardaí day in and day out and engage with them and they are absolutely dedicated to their work. One of the biggest requests they make is for more gardaí. The more gardaí that we have, the easier it is for them to do their work, to spread their workload and to be able to respond in the way that they need to. As I said, I do not for a second say that there are not challenges or issues within the organisation. Any organisation of its kind, with the significant numbers of people involved - 14,000 members as well as more than 3,500 civilian staff - will have challenges and we need to respond to them. As Minister-----

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

Is there an issue with morale?

Deputy Helen McEntee

I am not saying there are no issues. I have just said that there are issues but we are working to respond to the concerns that gardaí are raising. With a budget of €2.31 billion we are investing directly in them, responding to their health needs and their requirements, making sure that we have more of them to be able to spread the workload, and making sure the changes that are made are efficient and effective and do what they are intended to do.

All of this is being done with the overall intention not only of supporting An Garda Síochána, but also of ensuring we deliver the right service for the public. The objective of An Garda Síochána is to ensure it can deliver the right service and we need to support it in its work. I acknowledge that there has been a difficult period since the Covid-19 pandemic with fewer people coming through the college, garda numbers in certain areas reducing and an industrial relations dispute. However, the members I meet are committed to the work they do. I acknowledge that people leave work for different reasons. We have full employment. Gardaí are highly skilled workers. Many decide to leave for personal reasons and others do not. Where there are challenges, the information we get from exit strategies and exit interviews will be used to make changes where they need to be made.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I am conscious of time. I would appreciate if I could get a quick answer on drugs.

Deputy Helen McEntee

There are a number of approaches to this. The Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, and I are currently engaged in the development of a health-led approach that An Garda Síochána would apply. We are waiting for legal advice about a number of elements of that. Essentially, when people are caught with drugs for personal use, the case would be approached in a different way, but at the same time we need to ensure-----

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

Really? Is the Minister putting together legislation in advance of the report of the Citizens' Assembly on Drugs Use?

Deputy Helen McEntee

Looking at a health-led approach was committed to in the programme for Government, so it is not new. It has been committed to and responded to for some time. We are at the early stages of it and acknowledging what has come out of the citizens' assembly, it is the approach committed to.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

Is the Government already drafting legislation?

Deputy Helen McEntee

No, we are not drafting legislation. We are looking at the overall policy.

Deputy John McGuinness

I find that morale in the force among the members I speak to is at an all-time low. Part of the deal has to be around a futuristic view of rosters and how they operate and doing everything possible on pay and conditions to retain those in the force who want to be in it. They are looking elsewhere because of the pay and conditions. We have to reach out to them. We are not making enough ground on the any of the issues to resolve these problems and they will just recur. When the Commissioner was here, I raised the policing of south Kilkenny and the closure of many barracks, such as those in Windgap, Kilmoganny and Bennettsbridge. With the closure of all those barracks, can a set arrangement be put in place to service those areas? I know people, particularly elderly people, who live in fear because of what is going on in rural Ireland. Will the Minister address that with a policy?

The drug scene down the country - I am sure it is the same as Dublin or anywhere else - is completely out of control. Drugs are being sold from houses and on street corners. They are being peddled everywhere and anywhere. Everyone seems to know who the drug dealer is, who the drug addicts are and where they are on the chain of command, yet nothing is happening, at least nothing to an extent that would instil confidence in the public that we are getting on top of the drugs issue. Earlier, the Commissioner said that a local chief has to make a bid. For God's sake, are we not monitoring what local chiefs are doing so that if they do not have capacity, we give it to them? We should reach out and try to sort it out. We need to cut it off at the source. I have seen so many people devastated by drugs, it is shocking. I do not usually attend this committee, but I am here because of this to ask about policing and drugs.

I am also here to ask about missing persons. The Commissioner was to come back to me about Jo Jo Dullard who went missing on 9 November 1995. The date of the anniversary is approaching again and the case is not resolved.

Does the Minister intend to update the Dáil on the 2018 announcement by the Minister that a civil servant was to be suspended? We now know that civil servant is John Barrett from human resources. It is known publicly. What is the individual case? How will the Minister respond to it? The Dáil was informed about this in 2018.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask the Deputy to respect the rules about mentioning individuals in the committee meeting. Has this individual been mentioned on the record before?

Deputy John McGuinness

His name has been mentioned before not only in committees, but also in the Dáil Chamber. I am simply asking for an update on his case because we were informed about it in 2018 and we have not been informed since. Will the Minister address those issues?

Finally, I ask the Minister who will take control of the paperwork left over from the Charleton tribunal and any outstanding questions about or analysis of that paperwork.

Deputy Helen McEntee

On morale, I acknowledge there are issues in the organisation, as there are in any organisation. Many of the measures that have been put in place, from additional funding to new policies, and from supporting gardaí to increasing overall numbers, were put in place to respond to existing challenges. On pay and conditions, An Garda Síochána is now part of the Building Momentum pay talks for the first time since 2020, which are upcoming and that is a welcome development. It is important that all the associations are part of those discussions. I support them in that.

On policing more generally, while having a station in an area is important - there is a presence on the ground - it is also important to ensure individual members are operating locally. Community gardaí play a vital role for the elderly or those living in isolation. The overall objective of the new community policing operating model is that each area would have its own community garda who the population would be able to identify, whose number they would have, who they could engage with and who would engage with community groups. In my county recently, we had a community alert meeting in one of the local areas. Gardaí came, gave advice and were able to engage with the community as a whole. That is invaluable. The intention is to ensure a community policing resource is available in every area in every county, but we need more gardaí to ensure those teams are populated. That brings me back to my number one priority, which is to ensure we have as many members as possible.

On the drugs issue, I agree it is everywhere. There are a number of ways in which we collectively and An Garda Síochána can respond to it. It is not only about specialised teams on the ground trying to deal with those who are selling drugs into our communities, especially organised crime groups; it is also about building the relationships we need at an international level to be able to take out the organised crime groups that have moved abroad. A huge amount of work has been done, focused on the Kinahan organised crime group, but more recently relationships have been developed with our counterparts in South America where many of the drugs come from. An Garda Síochána has had great success in recent months with massive seizures, but we know it is just the tip of the iceberg. There is more work to do, but we and An Garda Síochána are absolutely committed to it. It is also about ensuring we work with young people at the earliest stage possible. The investment in our youth justice strategy is to try to divert young people from getting into the life we are starting to see take over more and more communities, so that there are diversion routes for young people at an earlier stage. That is the reason for the increase in our funding for the youth justice strategy. It has increased significantly in recent years.

On missing persons, we have undertaken work on a comprehensive database, working with Forensic Science Ireland, so that we can make matches in areas where technology and science has evolved over the years. Specifically, that relates to bodies that have not been identified. Separately, An Garda Síochána continues to reopen cold cases. In recent weeks, we have seen it seeking information people might be able to provide as a shred of evidence. It is all about bringing clarity to families who do not have it and potentially bringing loved ones home.

Every effort is being made, working with the Garda, Forensic Science Ireland and others, to do what we can for those families. It is hugely difficult and traumatic. A day is coming up where we remember those families in particular. That case is ongoing, so I cannot comment on it.

An Cathaoirleach

That concludes our consideration for this evening. I thank members, the Minister and her team and the other witnesses. Before we wrap up, I ask if it is agreed that we publish the opening statements on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed. That concludes our formal business. The committee will reconvene tomorrow at 3 p.m. in private session for a briefing on the general scheme of the coroners (amendment) Bill 2023. I thank the Minister's team for being available to do that briefing. It is appreciated. We will pick it up there.

The joint committee adjourned at 7.10 p.m. until 10 a.m. on Thursday, 16 November 2023.