Skip to main content
Normal View

Joint Committee on Justice debate -
Tuesday, 23 Apr 2024

EU Regulations and Directive on International Protection, Asylum and Migration: Discussion

I welcome the Minister and her officials and thank them for being with us today. The topic under discussion today is the motion on the proposed approval of regulations and a directive of the European Parliament and of the Council on international protection, asylum and migration. We will receive a briefing from the Minister on that motion. Briefing documents by the committee's research team have been circulated by the secretariat as well as the Minister's opening statement.

Before I get on to the main business of the meeting, I advise of the following matters relating to parliamentary privilege and practice: witnesses and those partaking in the meeting are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or to otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging or defamatory to that person or entity. I will take that as understood. We are all experienced parliamentarians.

I will ask the Minister to speak on the motion. There are some visitors and substitutions on the committee so for their benefit, we will hear from the Minister first for her briefing. We will then take questions and submissions from around the table. Committee members go first. Deputy Harkin, Senator Keogan and any others who join us this afternoon are very welcome. Committee members will go first and then visitors will be taken afterwards. That does not apply to substitutes. Deputy Ó Laoghaire is here as a substitute for Deputy Ward. There is an opening round of six minutes per member. That time is for questions and answers then we will move on. We can do a second or indeed a third round as required. We have a three-hour session booked. It is a 4.15 p.m. start. The Minister has commitments in the Dáil at about 7.20 p.m. or so and, therefore we will conclude after three hours if not already concluded. Perhaps we will not need it but it is available if it is.

I invite her to make her opening statement.

I thank the Chair. I apologise that I have to take parliamentary questions in the House later. I would have moved or changed them otherwise.

I am pleased to be here today to discuss the proposal that the State exercises its option to participate in the EU asylum and migration pact and I thank the committee for its engagement on this matter. As the committee will be aware, following intensive negotiations over almost eight years, political agreement at European level was reached in December 2023 on the remaining measures of the pact.

The Government, on my recommendation, then approved, at Cabinet, opting-in to all of the non-Schengen measures on 27 March. The European Parliament subsequently approved all elements of the pact on 10 April and they are expected to be formally adopted by the Council of the EU in the coming weeks. Ireland was involved throughout the negotiations on these measures and the Government fully supports the outcome which we believe produces a fair, sustainable and efficient asylum procedure in full compliance with fundamental rights.

The pact will enhance the common European asylum system, of which we are already a member. It aims to make it a stronger, more cohesive and comprehensive solution to the challenges presented by migration. Its strength lies in its holistic, rather than selective, approach. It brings together policy in the areas of migration, asylum, integration and border management recognising that the overall effectiveness depends on progress on all fronts. This common response also reflects the EU’s partnerships with third countries to address the root causes of irregular migration, combat migrant smuggling and support an effective returns policy and well-managed legal migration.

Let me give a brief overview of the pact measures I am proposing that we opt into, as well as some related measures that we will not opt into as they are Schengen measures and, therefore, we cannot. First, the screening regulation will apply where people first enter the EU irregularly, or are identified on the territory of a member state without permission. They will be required to undergo a screening procedure within seven days at most. This will consist of identification or verification of identity, health and vulnerability checks, security checks, fingerprints and registration in the Eurodac database. At the end of the screening, all people concerned will be directed to the relevant procedure, whether that is asylum or return. If people then move on to another member state, that member state will have access to the relevant identity and security information. This is a Schengen measure but Ireland will align with these provisions in national law insofar as is possible. Essentially we will replicate what we cannot join.

The Eurodac regulation will be very important for Ireland as a country that experiences high levels of secondary movement. Eurodac is an EU IT system that allows us to check whether someone has lodged an application for asylum in another EU country. The system allows us to check whether someone has lodged an application for asylum.

The new regulation will extend the system to collect more information for wider immigration purposes and enhance the sharing of information between EU countries on irregular arrivals. This will include collection of a facial image as well as fingerprints and we are reducing the age for taking of fingerprints to six years and over. This is to provide better protection for at-risk children. Accessing information on which member state is responsible helps in returning secondary movers to the correct member state. Importantly, we will have access to security information, where it is applicable, from the screening checks in other member states.

The asylum procedures regulation provides for faster, fairer processing of asylum applications across the EU. It includes border procedures, which are very condensed procedures, for certain applicants such as those without documentation or those who come from countries with low recognition rates for asylum. It also provides for accelerated and inadmissibility decisions to be taken in three and two months, respectively. The longest time frame for a first instance decision is six months for the ordinary procedure. We are already making changes to try to ensure we have faster processing. Approximately 70% to 80% of applicants will be processed in less than three months with the remainder processed within the six-month period. This will mean that people spend less time in state-provided accommodation and, ultimately, are more likely to be returned to their country of origin. Appeals, of course, are provided for, as well as safeguards in the form of vulnerability checks, legal assistance and interpretation. There are greater safeguards for minors. In short, this regulation will ensure people get a quicker decision, whether positive or negative, on their claim. If it is a positive decision, they can move on with their lives quickly. If it is a negative decision, they can be removed more quickly.

The asylum qualification regulation provides for some small refinements to the criteria for applicants to qualify for asylum and subsidiary protection and the rights of persons who benefit from these statuses. Some new features include options to review the granting of subsidiary protection where the situation in the country of origin improves and the mandatory recording of applicant interviews. Harmonisation of the rules on qualification reduces the incentive for applicants to move from one member state to another, which is positive for Ireland.

The return border procedure regulation is a Schengen measure that Ireland is not part of. However, it is proposed to provide for similar provisions in national law insofar as is possible in line with the comprehensive approach being taken to this package of measures. This proposal is aimed at increasing the effectiveness of returns. It requires member states to effect the return of those who were refused status under the border procedure within a prescribed time of 12 weeks. Persons undergoing the return border procedure are requested to reside in designated locations. These locations do not have to be close to a border. Applicants subject to the return border procedure must be granted a period of up to 15 days for voluntary return if they so require it. Under the procedure, detention may only be used as a measure of last resort on the basis of an individual assessment and if other less coercive measures cannot be applied effectively. Managing external borders and the return of persons who no longer have a right to stay in the EU is an integral part of a functioning migration system and must be done with full respect for human rights. Reflecting this regulation in our national law will lead to a more efficient asylum process, where applicants will spend less time awaiting a decision in reception facilities.

The asylum and migration management regulation, AMMR, is aimed at dealing with the imbalance between responsibility and solidarity across the Union on migration and reducing secondary movement, where a person moves from the country in which they first arrived to seek asylum in another.

This type of movement accounts for a significant proportion of applications in Ireland at any given time. This will be done by replacing the current system for determining which member state is responsible for an asylum application, which is known as the Dublin III regulation.

The AMMR, like Dublin III, establishes that the first member state where an international protection application is lodged has the responsibility to handle the claim. Ireland currently takes part in the Dublin III returns process, where take-back requests are made and relocations are agreed and implemented on a somewhat inefficient basis. The AMMR makes the transfer process clear and introduces timelines for the issuing of transfer notifications. It will also replace the current take-back request with a simpler take-back notification that will reduce the administrative burden of the current system and make it more effective. Ireland will directly benefit from a more efficient system and process that will allow us to identify and return secondary movers to the correct member state responsible, thereby freeing up our own system to assist those seeking international protection swiftly and efficiently.

To balance this responsibility, which will largely fall to so-called front-line member states such as Italy, Greece and Cyprus, the AMMR also introduces a mandatory solidarity mechanism to assist member states that are under migratory pressure or are at risk of coming under migratory pressure. It is important that member states can support one another when there is a time of significant pressure. Of course, Ireland may benefit from this provision too. A solidarity pool will be established under the regulation from which affected member states can draw. All member states will contribute on a fair-share basis. Ireland’s fair share of the solidarity pool would be 2.16% and, based on current figures, would translate to 648 relocations per annum or €12,960,000 by way of a financial contribution, if that was what we chose to do. Member states retain flexibility on how they meet this obligation. Let me be very clear in saying this does not mean Ireland will be responsible for an additional 648 international protection applications a year, or, indeed, for an additional 30,000 applications, which is the overall figure for Europe and not for Ireland. We will have the capacity to decide how we want to contribute based on our own capacity at the time. This may take the form of relocations, a financial contribution, offsetting against cases not being returned under take-back processes, or a combination of these. I also wish to point out that were Ireland to come under migratory pressure, we too would have access to the solidarity mechanism.

The reception conditions directive aims to provide a greater degree of harmonisation and uniformity in reception conditions across member states, an area which deals with matters such as accommodation, means of subsistence, access to the labour market and detention. Crucially, reception conditions must only be provided in the member states responsible for an application. Again, the aim here is to prevent secondary movement and to encourage people to return to the first country they entered. This will be of particular importance in the Irish context as we experience such high levels of secondary movement.

The directive will make changes regarding the legal framework regulating both freedom of movement and detention during the asylum procedure. However, the position remains that a person may not be subject to detention simply because they are an applicant. This must only be used as a last resort. There is no provision in the pact requesting or forcing member states to detain protection applicants. Harmonising the rules on reception conditions will reduce incentives for asylum seekers to move from one member state to another, which is again important for Ireland.

The crisis and force majeure regulation, CFMR, provides for specific rules that can be applied in cases of migratory crisis and force majeure, which are defined in the regulation. Under this regulation in the pact, the affected member state can employ certain measures to respond to the increase in applications as a result of the crisis it finds itself in. These may include longer registration deadlines to register applications for international protection, flexibility in applying the border procedure and the extension of timeframes in determining the member states responsible in the case of mass influx. All measures taken under the regulation need to meet requirements concerning necessity and proportionality in achieving objectives and protecting the rights of the applicants. Because the regulation deals with exceptional situations, all measures taken under it are taken on a temporary basis and cannot last for more than three months. Furthermore, no member state can activate this regulation on a unilateral basis, which is an important safeguard. Should Ireland find itself in a crisis situation, we will have the option to apply to the Commission to activate the procedure set out in this regulation.

Finally, I will briefly mention the resettlement regulation, which will be under the aegis of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth if we opt in. This regulation establishes a Union resettlement framework for the yearly resettlement of a certain number of third-country nationals to the member states. It provides common rules on admission of third-country nationals for resettlement and humanitarian admission, including rules on eligibility criteria and exclusion grounds, the status to be given to resettled persons and the decision-making procedure. While member states are required to pledge the number of persons they will resettle each year, it is possible to make a pledge of zero. This is something we already do. We have the Afghan and Syrian programmes, and we decide how many people we wish to opt into, or pledge, to take. It will not really have changed things too much.

I hope I have outlined the main benefits of opting-in to the comprehensive suite of pact measures. While it is important, though, to talk through the upside of opting-in, I also believe the risks of not opting-in are significant. We simply must recognise that the challenges presented by migration and asylum exist. They cannot be wished away. They must be addressed and they cannot be addressed in a globalised and interdependent world by any state acting alone. What is likely to happen if we do not opt in? Well, continuing to operate under existing systems would likely result in Ireland becoming a more attractive destination for individuals seeking protection. Numbers would almost certainly increase and yet we would be precluded from accessing solidarity and burden-sharing mechanisms. Our capacity to send people back to where they came from would also be severely limited, and this would mean more people in the reception system for longer periods. I do not think, then, it is realistic to present this as an issue which would simply evaporate if we chose not to engage or not to opt in. We also need to move in this regard without further delay. For Ireland to effectively align its laws and systems with other member states by 2026, a decision on opting in must be taken now. This is why I am proposing this timeline. Such a decision would not just send a clear signal to fellow member states and the Commission that we are committed to working in harmony and solidarity with them on migration but, more importantly, it would ensure Ireland can avail of the necessary support to implement the changes required to comply with the pact. This will include a substantial EU implementation budget to be distributed by the Commission. Looking at this year's budget alone, €34 million has been allocated to increase the number of staff and teams and the processing is already under way. We would have access to a significant amount of money in the context of this budget. If these proposals are approved, it is intended to establish an interdepartmental project board to develop and progress an implementation plan for the asylum and migration pact, with the support of the Commission, to ensure transposition of the measures by mid-2026. This is a major area of reform. As committee members know, two years is not a long time in which to try to implement legislation of this scale and volume. Time is therefore of the essence here.

I hope committee members will appreciate the benefits of opting into the pact on asylum and migration. I trust the briefing document supplied to the committee has been of assistance, and I will, of course, be happy to answer any questions members may have on any of the issues I have already referred to.

I thank the Minister for that opening statement. As usual, we will go around the table. I call Deputy Alan Farrell. He has six minutes as usual.

I thank the Minister for coming before us. If it is okay with her, I am going to ask questions and then seek individual answers to each. I have about four or five questions. My first query relates to the asylum procedure regulation with regard to the 12-week timeline the pact outlines. Is this feasible in the Irish context? Notwithstanding the increases in staffing levels in recent years, will more staff be needed as a result of this 12-week requirement?

Yes, I think it is feasible but it will require increased levels of staffing. These increased levels will be required not just in the first-instance decisions, because this context includes appeals as well, so we will need to ensure our appeals processing is more efficient than it is now. This will also require an investment in people to allow us to be able to carry out these procedures. Investment in funding will also be required, and, again, we will be able to access funding if we are opting into this pact. As can be seen already, however, on foot of the fast processing we have applied to the ten safe countries and, as of today, to the country from where we receive the highest volume of applications from people seeking international protection, which at the moment is Nigeria, we have been able to reduce a process that has previously taken years into one where the processing time, in some instances, is now 60 or 70 days. It is, therefore, absolutely possible to achieve this outcome, but we need to be investing now and ensuring the structures are being put in place now.

A related question then concerns the safe country processing time, which I think is 60 days within the pact. I presume the Minister's answer will be very similar.

It is. All this will require resources and an increase in the capacity of our overall system. We have more than doubled the number of people working in the International Protection Office in the last two years. The intention would be to increase it at the same level in the two intervening years between now and when the pact officially comes into play in 2026.

A system is in place whereby we would need, for example, to apply a percentage of the border procedure requirement in that time. I think the figure is 1,746. Beyond that, we do not have to apply the 12-week period. Obviously, though, we want to ensure that as many people as possible going through that procedure are processed in that time.

Perhaps we can all look back at the time since 2008 with regard to exceptional circumstances that might arise, which the Minister has mentioned several times, particularly in terms of an influx of migrants and the associated financial difficulties in which a State might find itself, as we did after 2008. Is the Minister confident the solidarity pool will work effectively, particularly in instances where a lot of Europe, particularly the peripheral states as we experienced previously, go through something like this? What would be the knock-on effect for the pact? Has this been taken into consideration?

The challenge has been to make sure that what has been agreed will work. This is why we have been debating it for some time. There are member states under significantly more pressure than other countries. I have mentioned Italy, Cyprus and Greece. What we are placing on them is a significant onus to process a significant number of people who will be coming into Europe or who are already coming into Europe. They will then be responsible for the processing of applications and potentially accommodating them. It is very important that we have this solidarity mechanism as a country where the vast majority of arrivals are secondary movements. For us to return them, we have to have some sort of solidarity mechanism to show we are in this together and working together.

The way the 2.1% figure has been worked out is 50% GDP and 50% population. While our economy is doing well, our population is much lower and it balances out at 2.16%. The number, 648 people, is relatively small when we consider that last year alone we had more than 13,200 people seeking international protection. At the same time, we would not have to accept 648 people; we could decide to pay more than €12 million instead or we could provide support by way of officials to assist them in the countries of origin. There are different ways-----

Perhaps the Minister will come back in later to set out how this would work in terms of officials lending support to other countries. My time is pressing on. Our status is one of island nation with a shared border. Clearly the UK is not opting into the EU migration pact. Therefore, there is obviously an issue for us to deal with that. How confident is the Minister in our capacity to deal with it? What happens in the worst-case scenario, whereby we have an influx of migrants entering our State via Northern Ireland? What will we do about it? What level of integrated communication and information do we have with our UK counterparts?

My next question is on the removal of those individuals who have been served with papers to leave or who have been refused leave to remain. Aside from setting border exit checkpoints how will the State be able to keep a record of whether these individuals have left? I know that after-the-fact checks occur and the Government and the Department are broadly satisfied the individuals have, in fact, left the State. Particularly if the figure of more than 12,000 people per annum is sustained, how can we be confident these individuals are leaving the State? I am sure the Minister is aware that it has been stated, and it is on the record in both Houses and in the public domain, that it is not known whether individuals have left. It is a perennial question that keeps coming back to us as public representatives.

Deputy Farrell's time is up but I will allow the Minister to answer.

With regard to the UK, Deputy Farrell is correct that we have an open border. The UK is no longer in the EU. We have agreements in place that mirror much of what we are discussing with regard to the pact, in particular with regard to returns. A significant number of people applying for asylum here have come through the UK. We have had a challenge in recent weeks with a High Court ruling that has prevented us from returning people to the UK. This ruling is that we have not clearly outlined whether they would be potentially at risk if they were returned. Irrespective of the fact this case is still going through the process, in a matter of weeks I will bring forward amendments to legislation to make sure we address the issues raised by the court.

We have to have a situation whereby we can return people to the UK if this is where they have come from and where they have asylum. This will not change. We have an arrangement with the UK. We probably have more of an arrangement because of our common travel area status, which is separate from the rest of the EU. What we see happening now with the UK is that it is trying to mirror much of what we are proposing in the pact, to have arrangements with the rest of the EU on returns and many of the procedures we are speaking about.

We have an issue at present with the High Court case. This will be resolved with legislation. We regularly meet through a common travel area forum. It meets on a quarterly basis. We also have significant engagement between the PSNI and An Garda Síochána to look at irregular crossings and where people have arrived from the UK seeking international protection.

With regard to knowing whether people have left, what is very clear, and it is not just in Ireland but throughout the EU, is that the quicker we can process an application, the more likely it is that someone will leave. This is done through communication with the Department or the international protection office or through a voluntary returns system. There is a focus on forced deportation which is misplaced. To deport somebody forcibly takes much longer. It takes a lot more money and it is more challenging than if we work with people. There is a much greater emphasis-----

My question was not necessarily on deportations. I specified people who do not have right to remain.

Through engagement when somebody is given a decision much more quickly, we are much more likely to know whether the person is leaving and they will communicate this to us. We can check that. In years gone by, because it took so long to go through these processors, people disappeared out of the system. What we do, and have been doing, is carry out checks to look at whether people are still living where they said they are living. We look to see whether they are in receipt of social protection payments or in housing. We look to see whether any of these elements are being taken up. Where they are not, or where someone has had a deportation order against them, the likelihood is they have left.

When we apply a much quicker and more efficient processing system, it is much easier to know where people are when they have been given a negative decision, to assist them to leave them and to do so in a quicker way. It will create a much clearer picture of who is here and who is not, short of literally putting people into detention camps where they are imprisoned. Very few other countries do that and it is not what the vast majority of us would propose to do to people who come into our country to seek asylum.

I have heard what the Minister said about it not being in our interest to go it alone and I very much agree. Some commentators on this say it will cede our sovereignty with regard to immigration and asylum issues. How does the Minister address that argument? Will she confirm that it is not the case? If it is the case, will she explain to what extent and how it is the case?

It will not cede our sovereignty. When we signed up to the Lisbon treaty it was made clear that issues relating to security and migration would be a European competence. Ireland agreed and negotiated that there would be an opt-in measure. For any of these types of measures for security and policing, and many of the measures we have discussed in the committee and in the Houses, we make a decision as to whether we want to opt in to them. All of the measures we are speaking about are measures we have discussed, engaged on, helped to develop and worked through since 2016. At no stage has there been a suggestion, nor has any legal advice been provided to me, that they would in any way impede our sovereignty or our Constitution. These are measures we opt in to. This is something we secured and negotiated before people agreed the Lisbon treaty. It is very clear this does not in any way impede our sovereignty.

In terms of implementing the pact, how much of it will be done through primary legislation and how much by secondary legislation?

All of it will be done through primary legislation.

Another argument-----

If this is to be voted through, then, for the next two years there will be full engagement on the legislation. We will have to go through the normal process in developing that legislation and there will be full and significant engagement with the committee and with both Houses as well.

Another criticism I have heard on the efficiency and timelines, which are set forth in the pact, is around why we cannot do that without signing up to the pact, leaving aside the advantages of signing up to the pact. What is to stop Ireland from implementing the same timelines in dealing with applications?

Why would we not opt into the pact? That is my question here. We have seen-----

I think we should opt into the pact.

The suggestion there is that we would not opt in but would try to replicate what other countries are doing by not opting in but where we are still bound by the previous opt-ins. When it comes to the Dublin III regulation, if we do not opt into the new system of returns, we are still bound by the Dublin III regulation which is a less efficient system. If we do not opt in to faster processing, we can change it but we are still bound by previous arrangements. We are already part of the Common European Asylum System. We have opted in to 29 out of the 40 measures to date. We are bound by them, so if we were to change our laws and implement them, we would still have to be guided by those. It is very similar to what we are seeing happening in the UK, where it has left the EU but is now trying to mirror and mimic its own legislation to what is going on in Europe. The question then is: why would we not join, particularly when we have been part of the negotiations on all of these measures? Above all, it benefits us, so there is no logic that we would not join.

By opting in, the Minister mentioned resources being provided, even leaving aside the solidarity mechanisms which are available. What additional resources would come our way and how would that assist our dealing with migration or asylum applications?

On the faster processing, in particular, if we do not opt in, we would not have access to significant funds. Funding is available specifically through the agency which, again, we opted in to joining just last year. That could amount to tens of millions of euro by the time it is divided up. Again, to my earlier point, €34 million in the last year or so allowed us to increase our staff and improve our processing times. This money would be significant in assisting us with processing times.

Finally, I ask about the Dublin III regulation. The Minister mentioned that it was inefficient and it is, to a large extent, broken, which many people would say. Does the Minister have any apprehension that, if it was to operate the way it was supposed to, we would be obliged, as a member of the European pact, to take a proportion of asylum seekers? The Dublin III regulation obviously benefits us, as some people would see it, because we are at the end of the pipeline. It disproportionately affects countries which are closer to Europe's land borders. Does the Minister see any situation where we would be forced to take people coming to Europe as asylum seekers in proportion to our population?

The Dublin III regulation does not work because we can request a country to take back people and the country can then deliberate as to whether or not it believes it is the first country of origin and can frustrate the system. Once it goes beyond the six months, it is impossible to return somebody. That is why it has not worked. There have been a small number but in recent years we have tried to focus on and put significant resources into it but it has not worked.

The new system will mean that we will be able to identify with the enhanced Eurodac system - again this is why all of the parts are so connected and work together - in a much quicker way the country from which people have first come, or received asylum. We would then issue a take-back notification and the country would then have to say, or make a case as to why, they should not be taking these people back. If the country does not respond, we are then able to send that person back. It is a much more efficient system and tilts it on its head. Instead of the other country having essentially the ability to frustrate the process, we would be able to use the system.

Separately, on the solidarity mechanism, which is in line with that, the figure which has been set initially is 30,000 right across the EU. That is where the 2.16%, or the 648 figure, for Ireland comes into it. If that 30,000 ceiling were to change, that would have to be agreed at a European Council meeting, and agreed by us working with our colleagues, where there has been a significant increase and particular pressures have been placed on certain member states. That number could increase but we would still have the option to say that we will pay because we do not have the accommodation.

Take now, for example, where we are under significant pressure when it comes to accommodation, we would have the option to say that we are paying that €12 million plus, instead of taking those numbers. Even if the numbers increase, there is no forcing a member state to take those numbers. There are always options for them and that is very clear.

I thank the Minister very much.

I call Deputy Daly.

I thank the Minister for attending. The Minister was explaining the procedure there and the history of this. Was there pressure from Europe to sign up to all of the seven regulations or was that a decision taken by the Government itself?

There was absolutely no pressure here. We have been part and parcel of negotiating this. All seven measures benefit Ireland, so there is no reason we would not. We have the opt-in option, the decision was taken and it benefits us.

The Minister mentioned that she did not receive any legal advice that mentioned any impinging on our sovereignty. The Minister received legal advice on this. Is that what she is saying?

Any amendment I would bring to Cabinet would go to the Attorney General's office and no issues have been raised. Also, this has been in the public domain since 2016 and at no stage has any legal issue been raised.

Is the Minister in a position to share that advice with the committee perhaps before next Tuesday?

We do not share legal advice. There is nothing I would bring to Cabinet in regard to legislation or a proposal that would not be constitutional. The Attorney General would raise concerns if anything was being brought forward that was unconstitutional. There is nothing unconstitutional-----

Was the legal advice received from the Attorney General?

It was received from my own legal teams but also from the Attorney General, which is the main source of legal advice for the Department.

The Minister is not prepared to share any of those legal advices with the committee.

We cannot share the Attorney General's advice but in terms of my own legal teams who work to draft the legislation, there is nothing at issue. If it is the case that somebody can tell me or if it can be presented how these measures would in any way impede our constitutional rights or our sovereignty, that is not a problem, but again, this has not been raised nor has it been flagged as an issue.

Apart from the sovereignty issue, were there any other advices on subsidiarity or on any risks or challenges? The Minister mentioned one recent High Court case which was unforeseen. Were there any other advices that there may be a risk of legal challenges apart from the issue of sovereignty?

It is always the case that in any legislation there are potential challenges. In my tenure as Minister, I have amended laws on a number of occasions based on High Court rulings where the court has identified that there are issues. As we develop the legislation, there is nothing being highlighted as a significant concern. As I said, all the measures benefit Ireland. We are trying to harmonise and align ourselves across the EU, so that there are not pull factors to any one member state, that we have quicker processing which means better outcomes for people who genuinely need protection, and that we have better ways to deal with crisis situations. There is nothing negative in this or that has been forced on us. I do not see how it could impact our sovereignty if it is something that we are choosing to do.

The legal advice did refer to other issues apart from just the sovereignty issue.

It did not.

In drafting legislation, if something appears to be unconstitutional or raises a red flag, it will be raised with us by my team, by the Department's team, and by the Attorney General. Nothing has been raised or flagged and we engaged with the Attorney General in developing this.

If we sign up to all of these regulations, there is no opt out then after that. Is that the case?

No, there is not but we are updating measures which we are already party to. We have opted in to a number of these measures in the previous format. Again, the Dublin III regulation and the new take-back regulation here is just an updated version of it. If we were not to be a member or not to join up to that particular measure, we are still bound by the Dublin III regulation, which is less effective and which means we would not be able to apply for the take-back.

Another area is the updated Eurodac system where we are already working with our colleagues. If that system were to be updated and we were not to have access to it, then we are worse off because we do not then have the increased information, where Eurodac would be providing photographs, travel documentation and information on whether somebody has been refused or accepted in another member state, as well as security checks. This is all positive for Ireland.

Does the Minister not think that we are limiting ourselves with regard to future flexibility by signing up to all of these given that we cannot pull back from them? For example, if the Government had a plan about capacity and reception, a reception standard would form part of that. There have been great pressures on those facilities over the past number of years.

Does the Minister not think we are risking infringement proceedings or penalties by signing up to every single one of the regulations?

I think we are risking a huge amount by not signing up to any of them, or by signing up to some of them. These work as a package, and again there is nothing that does not benefit Ireland in this. There are targets that must be reached with regard to the accelerated procedures, whether it is the border, the inadmissibility, or the ordinary procedure of six months. Where we are under pressure, speaking to the Deputy's point, is if there is an influx of a significant number of people. We would then be able to access the crisis and force majeure regulation, which allows us to set aside these rules, extend out the time period and access supports from the EU. We cannot access that if we are not signed up to it.

I am caught for time. Are we at risk of infringement proceedings if we do not comply with some of these regulations?

Every state is. If we are in a situation where we are under significant pressure, then we can benefit from the crisis and the force majeure issue. If we do not-----

Is there a risk of infringement proceedings arising out of all of these?

If we sign up to it, we are signing up to complying with these timelines. If we do not sign up to it, the likelihood is that we will actually become more of a draw for other countries because if we are not processing applications quickly, then people will be more likely drawn to us.

I have one final short question. The Minister mentioned a number of times that certain parts must only be used as a last resort. What is the Minister's definition of "a last resort"?

Can the Deputy repeat that? I am sorry.

A number of times in the Minister's opening statement, she mentioned that if there is an applicant, certain regulations must only be used as a last resort, for example, in the reception conditions directive. What does the Minister mean by "a last resort"?

We can, in certain instances, ask for a court to hold a person so that they would be detained if that person is a risk or they have been identified as a risk. Obviously, we do not want to do that for-----

A risk of what?

They could be a criminal risk. They could have committed a crime or might have shown up on the Eurodac system. We will now have a screening process put in place by the European Union and its member states where if somebody appears on their system as being a risk, we can check against those systems so that if they come up as a tag, we can contact that member state and ask what the issue is. If they are a concern, then we can seek, through the courts, to have that person detained while their application is being processed. Again, it is not likely that they would do that in normal situations but I think it is important that we have that.

Did the legal advice outline what a risk exactly is?

I am going to move on. Deputy Daly can come in again in the second round. His slot has gone well over. Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin is next.

I thank the Chair and the Minister. It is great to have a crowd here. It is a bit like going to a League of Ireland match. You wonder where everybody was, and now they are here, which is great.

On the issue at hand, can the Minister confirm for me that the right to seek asylum will be maintained, enshrined and protected under this proposal?

Absolutely. We are signed up to the Geneva Convention and that will not change.

That will not change. Can the Minister understand why there may be reluctance or concern in that regard? Is that completely unfounded?

I think the concern is that if you process an application quicker, then you are stripping some people's rights in terms of their right to appeal or their right to a fair process. That will absolutely not be the case. We have, in recent times, included an accelerated procedure for people coming from safe countries. They have not in any way been prevented from stating their case, making an appeal or going through the system. What it actually means is that if a person is genuinely entitled to protection, they will get that quicker. For me, that is a real positive here for people who are perhaps using the system for economic reasons. They will also get that negative decision quicker, and it is easier to remove them to free up the system for those who genuinely need it. I understand that there is a perception that if a process happens much quicker, then you are stripping out people's rights but they will still have the right to appeal and go through a fair process. That will be set out in our own legislation. There will be certain appeals timeframes that we can set, and we will able to set those time limits in our own primary legislation.

Does the Minister know what those time limits are going to be?

I think that is for the Houses to decide and for that to be-----

It is probably for the Minister to propose and for us to discuss.

With particular regard to the returns border procedure, which will not apply to us because we are not in Schengen, it is mandatory for people to be removed within the 12-week time period after they have been given their decision within the first three months. The border procedure is three months. That is everything from start to appeals. The EU and those in Schengen would have to remove people after 12 weeks, so it is likely that we would mirror that, and we would propose 12 weeks. Again, it would be for the Oireachtas to decide if that is the appropriate figure. Where possible, I think that we align with the measures that the EU is proposing. The whole point of this is that we do not have different systems applying in different countries that act as pull factors, or that there are differences with regard to how people are treated, and whether that is fairly or not.

"Pull factor" is a favoured phrase of the Department of Justice since my term there. I used to think that it almost needed to be painted on a wall of the Department of Justice, just to remind people what the main worries of the Department of Justice were. Anyway, that is just me being mischievous.

Every time we have had this discussion over the last 20 to 25 years or so, every new initiative from the Department or a Minister said that they were going to shorten the time in which applicants would get their application processed. I remember when the International Protection Act 2015 was brought in, the same suggestions were made, namely, that this would radically bring down the application time without any infringements on the right to seek asylum or the appeals system. Why should we be more confident that this one will work when the other one did not necessarily work?

We are already reducing the timeframes. When I was first elected, I remember visiting people in Mosney, which is in my constituency, where they were seven or eight years in the system for an average or ordinary application. While the timeframes have gone slightly up in the last few years, it is because our numbers have gone from 3,000 to 13,000. The average timeframe is under two years, although in most cases it is significantly under but it is under two years for the accelerated procedures, for which ten countries are now included. Today, the country with the highest number is under 90 days, so we are turning applications around.

The appeals are still slightly longer. We are hiring in as quick a way as we can and, in fact, the legislation I will bring forward to make changes to the High Court ruling will also make changes to those who can apply to be on the board for IPAS, making sure that we have access to as many qualified people as possible to be able to carry out that work as well. A lot of investment has happened in recent years to bring down those processing times, and I commend the team in the Department, the IPO office and right across the board. They are working with a significant increase in numbers and at the same time processing has, in many ways, gone down. What is also really important is the investment in technology. We are moving to having a significant number of and certain elements of the application system online. It will not remove anybody's rights but it just means it is on the system quicker, and we are able to process people much more quickly.

I have two very quick questions. I appreciate that I only have a minute left. The Minister may have already answered my first question because I was in and out of the room. The Minister can appreciate that there are other things going on, not least of which are the Stardust statements. Are we going to separately legislate for each of the measures in this pact, and very importantly, does the Minister propose to do a large-scale public information campaign to inform people about what this pact actually means, and not what it does not mean? As the Minister can guess, there are already bad actors in this space who are trying to give an interpretation of what this migration pact actually means. God help us, in an election year, if people try to play the immigration card and get a few cheap, racist votes for themselves when trying to tell lies about this migration pact. Are we going to separately legislate for each one? Does the Minister plan to have large public information campaign so that people cannot misinform?

On the first question, it will be one piece of legislation. The way that this has been negotiated, and the way that we see it, is that while they are separate measures they are all interlinked. We will be repealing the legislation that is currently there and bringing this forward. There is a very tight timeframe but I believe we need to do it within the timeline presented.

With regard to communication, I, as Minister, and my Department will do everything to communicate the benefits of this and the details of it. There is a huge amount of misinformation out there and, as public representatives, there is a duty on all of us to make sure that those who wish to intentionally put out mistruths about this and what it means are responded to. As a Government, collectively we are working to ensure that there is clear communication on migration as a whole.

Migration is positive for this country. Migrants contribute to this country significantly. In fact, so much of our public services would not function without them. We therefore need to make sure, when talking about migration as a whole, that the legal pathways to be here, those seeking protection and what is happening around accommodation are effectively communicated. That is a priority for the Government.

I will ask the Minister first about persons coming to Ireland who will be affected by the border procedure. If somebody comes to Ireland as a transit passenger through, say, Paris, is ours the first country that has to deal with him or her under EU law, and will the border procedure apply to him or her? Second, if somebody comes in here from, say, the United Kingdom at an unspecified time and later claims asylum, does the border procedure have any application to him or her?

If somebody is transiting through but has been identified and stopped at the border, there is the new screening process, which would apply to Schengen. For example, if the person landed in Paris, he or she would be checked and put on the system, so France would be designated as the first country.

Is that the case for a transit passenger? If I am coming from, say, Albania and my plan is to go to Ireland and I go via Paris Charles de Gaulle Airport, does it apply to me?

Yes. If somebody is coming through France, once they have arrived there, and if they have arrived with a visa or have valid papers, then obviously not if they then come to another country and claim asylum separate from that. If, however, they are going through France and have valid permission to do so, it does not apply if they then apply here in Ireland. That is a separate question. If, however, they go through France first and do not have a valid reason for being there, they would be screened and their details would be taken, and then that would be identified as the initial country.

I am just trying to get to the practicalities of this. If somebody arrives at Dublin Airport, with or without documents, and says they are an Albanian, say, looking for asylum in Ireland, do any of these border procedures have any application to them if they have arrived on a flight from Paris, Berlin, London or wherever?

If they have arrived and it is identified. We will mirror the Eurodac system so we will be able to identify whether they have come up on the system as someone who has sought asylum, transited through or come up on the screening system. If they have not, they can go through our border procedure, but only if they do not have documents, if they have false documents, if they pop up as a risk on the Eurodac system or if they are from a country where the approval rate is less than 20%. The border procedure applies in certain instances if somebody already has status in another country. That is the inadmissibility procedure, which is an even shorter procedure, but we have to identify if the person has come from that other member state and sought asylum there.

Am I to take it that a transit passenger in Paris, say, goes through Schengen procedures before getting on a flight to Dublin?

There will be an enhanced screening system for Schengen countries. That is part of the overall practice. While we are not in Schengen and do not have that, we would try to mirror that in our own legislation.

Nobody will get to Ireland via those airports unless he or she has gone through a Schengen screening. Is that it?

I will ask the Minister about the regulations. We discussed this earlier in private session. Do any of them have direct effect?

Do any of which?

Do any of the suite of six regulations have direct effect that does not require primary legislation?

They will all require legislation but they will all have a positive impact. They will all have a direct effect here in Ireland, whether it is the faster processing, the application of crisis situations, the enhanced Eurodac system or our aligning ourselves in terms of material reception conditions. All the measures here will have an impact, but we will require legislation for all of them as well.

As regards the common asylum regulation, is it the case, as some people are claiming, that, effectively, as regards our capacity to determine what is or is not persecution, all those things will in future be determined in accordance with the regulation and hard cases will be decided by the Court of Justice of the European Union rather than by our own courts?

That is already the case for safe countries. While we make the decision, there are countries we have designated as safe that others have not, and other countries have designated other countries as safe where we have not. It is up to us to decide what is a safe country, but there are parameters and guidelines to which we must adhere. That is already the case and that will not change. At the moment, I am reviewing eight other countries on top of the ten that are currently designated as safe, but there are already parameters there to which we must adhere. That will not change.

Do the time limits that are envisaged take into account judicial review after the initial decision has been made and an appeal has been made? Is there any time limit on the judicial review process?

No. That is something we will set in legislation. While there are the two-, three- and six-month periods, it is for us to decide how long the appeals process would take. As for those in Schengen, for the border procedure, that will be set at 12 weeks. We could mirror that and apply the same rules, but for any of the other appeals we set the timeline within which we want them to take place. One wants it to be as quick as possible, but it does require us to put in place significant investment, which we intend to do, in the appeals process.

On judicial review to the High Court, the Court of Appeal or the Supreme Court, is it the Minister's intention to provide for time limits for decisions in that process as well by primary-----

That is not something we can do. Like anything that goes beyond our courts, that is not something we can put a timeline on, but we can put a timeline on the appeals, and that is what we will discuss through the legislation.

My worry is that we will have rapid primary decisions and rapid internal appeals and then there will be a flood of judicial reviews to the superior courts.

What we have seen already with the fast processing is that where people receive a negative decision much more quickly, they are more likely to leave, and they leave much more quickly. There are people who do not want a deportation order or negative decisions on their applications. As regards the voluntary returns process, which we are enhancing and on which we are working with people who have gone through it and got a negative decision, people are more likely to take that on board instead of taking legal cases or judicial review. There will always be people who may take judicial review or legal proceedings - that is the case now - but the more efficient a system we have, the less likely that is to happen.

Finally, we sign in to these regulations. Is it or is it not the case under protocol 21 that they can be amended at a later stage by qualified majority voting, QMV, and that our veto, so to speak, is gone and we are stuck with decisions?

As is the case with any of the options to opt in, if we do not opt in within the earlier period, we do not have a say in how they are implemented and how they are developed. That is why-----

I appreciate that but I am asking a different question. If they are amended later, are we stuck with the amendment once we opt in?

If we have opted in to a particular measure, and if it is amended later, we would have to opt in again.

We would opt in to any amendment.

That is what we are doing now. What we are talking about opting in to are amended versions of what we had opted in to before. If what the Senator suggests were to happen as regards the new Dublin III regulation, for example, we would not be discussing opting in; it would just be forced upon us. That is not what is happening, however. What we are doing is deciding, since this is an amended version of Dublin III, whether we want to opt in to the changed version or whether we want to stick with the older one. We are saying the newer one is much better, it will be more efficient and we will be able to return people much more efficiently. We have that choice. That will always be the case.

Often, as the Minister knows, we ask her to brief the committee on certain items post hearing. In the course of that engagement, it struck me that that might be useful. A number of case studies were teased out, such as someone coming from a third country to an EU country and on to Ireland, and someone coming through different routes or different paths and whether the decision is positive or negative when they ultimately are processed here. I do not know if it would be possible for the Department to put together a couple of little case studies or use cases such as those for the consideration of the committee.

That might assist with our deliberations next week. It might be helpful to the committee to have a note on that if possible. It certainly brings it to life to see a path through the system.
The next speaker is Deputy Ó Laoghaire, to be followed by Senator Ruane, Deputy Pringle, Deputy Costello and Senator Gallagher. Then we will move on to the guests. People will know when to expect to be called.

I have limited time, but as this is the first opportunity in these Houses to have a substantive debate about these proposals, I might outline some of my thoughts and those of my party. First, the Irish people recognise the importance of ensuring that people who are fleeing war and conflict receive protection. They also expect that a system is efficient, fair, decent and enforceable and that people can have confidence in it. It is also the case that we are living in quite an uncertain world and the situation at this point in time could not possibly have been anticipated three or four years ago. Similarly, there is no way of knowing what the future will bring. In such a context, I see no reason that the Government should not have sought to be selective. This has been brought forward as several different propositions. There are several legally distinct items. They are part of a package, but legally they require different votes at a European level. The Irish people would have expected the measurement to be made that where international protection is necessary and appropriate, that is the approach and where it is not necessary or is not in Ireland's interests that it would not be followed through on. A concern view we have is that decisions could be taken now that could tie the hands of future Irish Governments and cede power in areas of crucial importance. While we agree on the Eurodac regulation, the database, and on the migration management regulation in respect of returns, the vast majority of the compact cedes power unnecessarily and much of what it purports to seek to achieve, could be achieved through Irish legislation. It is not necessary to tie the hands of future Governments.

Those are my initial views, but I have a number of specific questions. On what date would the regulations take direct effect?

It is important that we have a sense of that. The Minister has outlined her intention to bring forward primary legislation, but a bit like the general data protection regulation, GDPR, ultimately until primary legislation is needed and after that point, the regulation stands. It is legally enforceable and has direct legal effect. That is important. It will be in 2026. I thank the Minister for that information.

On the point I made earlier, was consideration given to adopting some of the proposals or was it always the approach that Ireland would opt into every one? Are any other member states likely to opt into some and not others?

No, is the answer to the first question. We have helped to develop all seven of the proposals and there is nothing in any of them that does not benefit Ireland.

To clarify, no consideration was given to being selective.

No, because we developed all seven of them. All seven will benefit-----

Okay, just to be clear.

On the latter part of the question-----

Other countries do not have an option. The only country that differs from us is Denmark. When we negotiated the Lisbon treaty, we negotiated that we would have an opt-in. Denmark is not the same. It is in the Schengen area and is not choosing to opt out of any of the measures, but it never opted into any of the asylum procedures. Denmark has a separate and parallel process which it negotiates and engages with other countries on in parallel, so there is no one else to compare with. We are opting in because we are already a member of the asylum system and we are upgrading what we are already part of.

People would find it surprising that no consideration was given. Whatever about the ultimate conclusion the Government arrived at, people would find that surprising, given that the initial negotiations on this began under, at least constitutionally, a different Government, albeit one that had many of the same policies. They began under a different parliament and a different Commission and the proposals have been recast and amended several times. Surely the Department and the Minister should have considered each proposition on its merits, rather than simply assuming Ireland would have to opt into each and every one.

We have spent eight years working through and considering them. It is not a case that this was agreed a few months ago and then we looked at them and asked whether we would join them.

I appreciate that, but the Minister was not the Minister for Justice eight years ago. The European Commission was not the same eight years ago. The State perhaps, although it was constitutionally a different Government, had a particular position, but it is not the appropriate approach or a logical or sensible approach to simply assume that we have been working together all this time so we will carry on that way, rather than giving each proposal individual consideration. Surely that should have been the approach.

I was a Minister of State with responsibility for European affairs a few years ago and this was debated for that entire period. I saw it go through the different stages and processes. The fact that we helped to develop this does not stop with the end of a Government. It does not change the fact that all the proposals benefit Ireland and that we engaged because they will be positive for Ireland. They have to be looked at in the round and as a whole. If you take them apart, and if we do not have the fast processing, we would potentially not have access to a solidarity mechanism, funds or a crisis system. Why would you not have a uniform system of reception centres whereby no matter who is seeking protection, they will get the same response in every country?

If the Deputy can tell me what is negative about any of the other measures we are talking about, I can tease through them. My view as Minister and that of the Minister before me is that all these measures are beneficial. Throughout eight years, they have been debated, engaged upon and brought back and forth. Our representatives in the European Parliament have discussed them and engaged on them. People who were democratically elected, such as our taoisigh, have gone to European Council meetings and Ministers, including myself, who were democratically elected have gone to Europe to negotiate and discuss them. It is not the case that the Government decided at the last minute to just opt into seven proposals without teasing them through. We have been teasing through them for eight years and I have yet to hear anyone in the committee tell me what is negative about any of the measures we are proposing to opt into. I see them as working collectively. It is about us working together to respond to one of the biggest global challenges we face at the moment. By being selective we would not be working together and would potentially make it more difficult for ourselves as a country.

I appreciate that the Government is entitled to come to whatever conclusion it wishes and if it decides to opt into all the propositions, that is the evaluation the Government has made. However, people would be surprised that no consideration was given to selectively choosing that some might be in Ireland's interest and some might not. Simply, I do not believe that is a wise approach.

I have two final questions to ask. I think I know the answers but it is important to put them on record. The Minister spoke about shortening applications. At this time, there is nothing in legislation to prevent the Government shortening the processing times or from engaging in resettlement or accepting programme refugees.

On the timelines, no. As the Deputy can see I am investing in the system to make sure we have quicker turnaround times.

The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, is actively engaged in resettlement. We have the Afghan refugee programme, the Syrian programme and we have had programmes prior to those. That will not change.

That will not change.

The Deputy is running out of time so I ask him to close on this point.

We are absolutely competent to do that at domestic level.

Absolutely, yes.

I will look at minors specifically in a few cases. When we think of negatives and what we opt into, there are some concerns that relate to minors. The first point relates to the last point Deputy Daly made about Eurodac and security risks. Perhaps the Minister could give the committee an idea of the criteria that meet a security risk, such as particular offences. Of all the border procedures, this is the one where children will have to be addressed as they will be assessed as security risks.

What are the criteria for a child to be a security risk? What would the criteria be for a six-year old or a ten-year old, and why would they have to go through a process of determination as to whether or not they are a security risk? Are the assessment criteria for a child as a security risk different from the assessment criteria for an adult in that regard?

In particular, I reference fingerprinting, which will now apply to children from the age of six and up. The main reason that has been applied is that in some instances smugglers and people who are trafficking or organisations use people to cross borders or apply for asylum. The idea is that by fingerprinting children from the age of six years, we would have a better picture of who they are. Fingerprinting is not to try to identify them as a security risk but to act as a way of preventing them from potentially being trafficked or used by organised crime groups which move people around, create false documents and apply for asylum in other countries.

In terms of the security screening, we have the systems that currently apply across the EU. I cannot say how member states apply their security screening, but if something gives rise to an alert, for example, if someone comes up who has been on a terrorist watch list or he or she has committed a significant crime, something like that would appear on our system, but it is then very much for us to decide whether or not the person is a risk.

To add to my previous response, we have a procedure whereby we can apply to the court to have a person detained while he or she applies for asylum. It is used in limited circumstances and it is where significant crimes have been committed. It is not the intention that the screening will be to identify child criminals; it is very much that we want to protect the children. Procedures will be in place to identify vulnerable people and that will apply to children in this instance. Unaccompanied minors will be precluded from the accelerated procedure but families will be kept together when they go through the border procedure so parents and children will not be separated.

So if a child is picked up under the other security risk category, which the Minister says is more of a protection than seeking to turn a child away, what would happen detention-wise to those children who are flagged as a security risk? How would the care conditions for them be met?

In the case of an unaccompanied minor arriving in Ireland, where he or she has come through another country and something is flagged through the screening process, it is not the case that they would be put in a detention centre or anything of the sort. The intention is that we would work with State agencies to make sure that unaccompanied minors in particular would be treated as vulnerable people and that there would be a structure around them but, obviously if somebody is a significant risk that has to be taken into account as well.

What about age-disputed minors? There are obviously lots of issues about how we determine the age of unaccompanied minors at present in Ireland. There are lots of questions around that. What if the minor is age-disputed?

I will seek clarity on that. It has to be worked through. If we opt in, then it will form part of the legislation. We will be working with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth on that.

When we talk about vulnerable people, that includes children. That is why unaccompanied minors are exempt from some of the systems as well.

Yes. There are reports in Ireland at the moment that age-disputed children are actually put into adult care settings. We obviously need to be sure.

We need to work through that with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth.

Yes. The other question I have relates to the part on returns and not authorising entry. I am sorry but I do not want to misquote the section. There is a reference to misleading authorities, and that can act as a stand-alone reason for not authorising entry. In my view, that is extremely harsh. We have a lot of people coming from very distressed situations and being asked for information about their lives and especially if they have experienced trauma it may a while for them to be able to give the full story and the full picture. They may have also been advised, terribly, by other people about what they should and should not say when get to a place. The fact is that it is a stand-alone piece and it does not have to be met along with other criteria, but people can be prevented from entering if they mislead authorities. It is very arbitrary. Could the Minister clarify the position?

They can still apply for asylum. If somebody misleads the authorities, for example, because they have false documents, they will go into the border procedure if they come through the border. It is an accelerated procedure, so they can still claim asylum and make their case, but they will just be processed in a much quicker way. It is often said to me that if someone has a false document, he or she should be locked up and sent away and that is the end of it but there are people who are desperate or who come from situations who feel it is the only way that they can get protection by using false documents.

Currently, in Ireland we put people in prison for not having passports. We have people in detention right now for that exact reason, so I wonder how we are going to ensure that does not happen. The reference to misleading authorities is a concrete point if a person does not have documents but is there a definition provided? Are criteria listed for what constitutes "misleading information"? Could it be a date of birth? It could be arbitrarily applied if it is not actually laid out. Has it been laid out?

It is very clear. If somebody presents with false documents or does not have documents, it is a criminal offence. Senator Ruane is right that people have been imprisoned in recent months because of that. There are different time periods, but on release from prison a person can still then apply for asylum. It does not prevent them from applying, but it is a criminal offence to not have documents or to have false documents. A person can apply afterwards. It is absolutely the case that sometimes people do this for reasons, but it is also the case that people have false documents because they were intentionally trying to evade the system and they may be part of something much more sinister. We have to make sure the law is very clear. If you come with false documents or you have no documents, it is a criminal offence. We have to apply that, but it does not then prevent somebody from seeking asylum. Following on from my earlier point, if we feel that they are a risk or a threat, they can be detained while they are applying or going through that process, but that is why we have the fast processing for the border procedure, so that it can be turned around in a much quicker way. If a person is entitled to asylum at the end of the process, he or she will get it much quicker, and if not, they will be asked to leave, if possible, and supported to do so.

I thank the Minister.

I thank the Minister for her explanations. One question arise from a previous contribution. It relates to the costs of dealing with the pact. Ireland is a net contributor to the EU, as things stand, so that will still be the case therefore even if funding is received to deal with the pact. Is that not the case?

That is all right. In terms of the impact of the pact, the Minister said that "the Government fully supports the outcome which we believe produces a fair, sustainable and efficient asylum procedure in full compliance with fundamental rights". However, 161 voluntary organisations within the EU are very concerned about what is happening. They say it will have devastating implications for the right to international protection in the block and greenlights abuses across Europe, including racial profiling, de facto detention, and pushback. How does the Minister square the two interpretations of the pact?

First, I point to my response to Deputy Ó Ríordáin: nobody's right to asylum is being removed. We are one of 190-odd countries that have signed up to the Geneva Convention and that means if a person seeks protection, we have an obligation and duty to give them the opportunity to state their case. That will not change.

It is important, however, that we have a system that is efficient and works, and that is effective because if that is not the case, people who do not need it can use the system, which is a significant problem for those who do need it. In respect of safe countries for which we have applied an accelerated procedure, 80% of people who have gone through that accelerated procedure were not entitled to protection. If they were in the system longer and taking up beds or accommodation, those spaces would be unavailable to a person who is genuinely fleeing war or persecution. We need a system that is efficient and works effectively but that has clear rules. We cannot have a situation whereby people can use the system in the wrong way. That in itself would mean that people who need our protection cannot access it.

The pact means quicker and more efficient processing. If you are entitled to asylum, it means you will get it quicker. It means we will have greater solidarity mechanisms so that if Ireland were to come under pressure, we can benefit. It means more aligned systems across the EU. If you are someone genuinely seeking hope, irrespective of where you go, you will be entitled to the same type of support, help or accommodation. It means we can have greater information on who is coming into our country so that if there are concerns or security issues, we can highlight or address them at an earlier stage. There is nothing in this proposal that does not benefit Ireland. It does not preclude people from seeking protection.

The Minister is saying that 161 organisations are wrong. She is suggesting that in respect of the 80% of people who go through the accelerated procedure, none of those cases has ever been wrong. Does she think the possibility of somebody who is at risk being deported to their home country is worth that procedure taking place?

The accelerated procedure also has an appeals system and to date, approximately 80% of those appeals have been upheld. It is important that the system works for those who need it. If we have people who are economic migrants, as has been the case for a number of people in recent years, there are legal routes and pathways. Parallel to the pact, work is happening whereby we, as a European Union, are working with third countries to identify how we can support them not just in respect of their economies to ensure fewer people want to leave but also looking at critical skills pathways and ensuring we have greater legal routes for people to come here. Without knowing what any of the 161 organisations have said directly, there is nothing here which prevents a person from seeking protection. There is nothing which prevents them from exercising their right to seek protection. What we are saying is that we will do it in a more efficient and effective way, which can only benefit those who are genuine in this instance.

This also provides for the fingerprinting of children, which the Minister said is a protective measure. Does she think we should fingerprint all European children?

To protect them.

This is about the movement of children who are non-EU citizens.

The Minister spoke about those at risk of deportation. There is a different between EU citizens and non-EU citizens. Can EU citizens not be trafficked?

They absolutely can.

Perhaps we should fingerprint them as well in that case.

The difference is that we are talking about citizens who do not have a right to free movement across borders. We have an interconnected police system and the Garda works closely with police organisations across Europe and with Europol and Interpol. When it comes to trafficking, we have significant operations and mechanisms by which we work with each other.

If you have a right to free movement, it is okay to be trafficked.

That is absolutely not the case. I do not think I am suggesting that.

If it is a safety measure, surely all children should be fingerprinted.

There are situations where children may be coming from a war-torn country. Significant numbers have been coming from Ukraine recently. In that scenario, there is the potential that somebody who is not a European citizen will be trafficked by those claiming to be parents or relatives. We need to understand and know who people are.

Is it not possible for children from Cork to be trafficked?

Anybody can be taken and that is why the Garda works to try-----

We should fingerprint them all if that is the case.

We are talking about people coming into Europe. We are talking about reducing risks for children. We are talking about trying to ensure that children are not used by other people who are trying to get into the country to claim asylum. We are trying to ensure, for example, that children are not being brought into forced prostitution, which perhaps we do not realise is a massive problem. It is a greater risk when the children in question are coming from outside the EU. Of course, children can be trafficked and kidnapped and there can be issues within the EU but there is a greater risk for children outside the EU because there is not that engagement with-----

We should fingerprint all children to provide for their safety.

I do not think so.

On facial recognition technology-----

I will allow the Deputy to ask one more question before we move on. He is out of time but I will allow one more question.

Facial recognition technology is going to be used as part of this process. This committee has seen the difficulties with facial recognition technology and how it has been biased towards people of colour. Does the Minister think it is appropriate to use facial recognition technology in the asylum process?

This will not be facial recognition. People's photographs will be taken and that is it. They will then be on a system. Any form of facial recognition is separate and has nothing to do with it.

It states in the documents I have been reading that facial recognition will be used.

Facial recognition will not be applied in this instance. It will involve photographs. If a person arrives and we identify them on the Eurodac system, we will simply have a picture. We will be able to confirm it is the person in question and that the documents match those that have been uploaded.

No facial recognition technology or database will be used.

Not in this country, no. Not that I am aware of. We are talking about taking photos of people simply to upload to a database that can then be accessed by other member states.

There will be no facial recognition.

It will be a photograph as a form of identification.

The Deputy mentioned documents he has seen. Were they supplied through the committee or did he came across them himself?

I cannot remember. I will root it out and see.

Deputy Costello is up next and Senator Gallagher will be after him. The first of our visitors will be Deputy McNamara but Deputy Pringle is in the hot seat for now. Sorry, I mean Deputy Costello is. Deputy Pringle has just finished and is handing over to Deputy Costello.

I think the Minister is in the hot seat.

When we are talking about the vindication of individual rights, efficiency and speed alone are not necessarily the markers we should be aiming for. "Efficient" is a very loaded term and its appropriateness depends on what we are trying to achieve. To echo some of the previous contributions, there is a fundamental right in law. There is a moral right to be able to claim asylum and protection and that is what we should be looking to vindicate and not just speed at all costs. There is a variety of benefits, of course, to everyone in having a decision made faster but we need to be conscious and not fall into a trap of trading fairer for faster in decision making. That is partly because if we lose the fairness in the decision because we are moving too fast, we will end up with a significant amount of judicial reviews, as currently happens in the system. Those are incredibly slow and ultimately slow things down. I know the Minister is here to talk about the migration pact so I will save the rant about the underinvestment in the number of judges in the central office and the Courts Service for another day.

I am concerned because the timelines are being speeded up. There are increased timelines in this and we are not hitting the timelines we have in the system at the moment. The growing number of judicial reviews slows the system down and is a symptom of a lack of fairness and a poor system. I am concerned that we are going to make things worse by trying to sign up to these timelines.

One thing we can do to increase the speed and fairness of decisions is to invest significantly in legal aid and translators. Those are things we need to do but we have not been doing to anywhere near the level required in order to allow for legal aid as a right and access to the courts in general but also for the efficiency of the system and the speed required to ensure fairness.

Again, it is about speed and fairness. We need to see that legal aid and those translators. What in this migration pact will get us that? Where will we see that? Without those surely these accelerated timelines will just lead to yet more judicial reviews which will clog up the system and slow things down further.

While the Deputy is not talking about judges, I will not tell him that I have allocated 30 additional judges in the past year and a half and there will be 20 more in the second round of the judicial planning working group.

This is something we need to do, irrespective of the pact. We have gone from 3,000 applications per year on average to 13,200 plus last year and we will most likely surpass that this year. Therefore, if we do not apply these timelines, the system will become unmanageable and those who genuinely need help will not benefit from it. Those who genuinely need help could be at the end of the queue and not have their applications processed ahead of those who are economic migrants. Having a more efficient system actually benefits people who genuinely need protection because we can get to them more quickly. It does not mean we are removing the fair procedure here or that people are in any way prevented from making their case; they are not. Even if they come without documents or with false documents while there might be a judicial process in the early stages, they would still be entitled to apply for asylum, if that is what they are entitled to. If people arrive from countries we deem safe, they still have a right to apply in Ireland so that is not being taken away from them. It does not mean that just because the process is shorter, their rights are not being protected here. The legislation will set out very clearly the processes and procedures. The appeals process, which is not set out in the pact, will be decided by us in terms of the timelines and what they will look like.

In terms of how the migration pact changes things, it does not. We have to apply the legislation and we have to invest, which we are doing already. This year alone, €34 million has been allocated to improve our systems. If we do not opt-in to the migrant pact, we will not have access to the significant funding that will be available to us to help us to increase the staff numbers, improve our online systems and make sure we have an efficient system. I use the word "efficient" because if it is not efficient, it will become clogged up and it will not benefit those who genuinely need it. We have seen what has happened in the past where people were waiting for four years where they were not able to work, get on with their lives and move out of accommodation. That does not benefit the person who is genuinely in need of protection. The investment will be a requirement we will have to commit to. I am absolutely committed to that and I think most people are.

Again, for a legal system, efficient-----

I am sorry; we have already provided legal aid to support people and that funding will increase.

My point is that for a legal system to be has to be efficient, it has to be fast and fair. If it is only one, it will not be efficient. We need to see legal aid funded and those translators funded, otherwise the system may be fast but it will not be fair. When it comes to the vindication of rights, fast alone is not necessarily efficient.

I welcome the Minister and her officials. It has been a very useful discussion and it is important that correct and factual information be laid out. One criticism I have of the Government is that we have been slow to do that. We have left a vacuum that others have moved into. Bad actors were referred to earlier. That is unfortunate. The purpose of this discussion is to try to get facts and information out there and then people can make up their minds once they have all the information.

It is important to say the Irish people have been more than generous in helping and rightly so. That is the nature of the people we are. Some 106,000 Ukrainians have arrived here since the war started. Last year, there were 13,000-odd international protection applicants and this year we are estimated to be on course for 20,000 applications. If we were sitting here in September 2026 and the migration pact was in play, how many people would be arriving in this country to seek international protection, all things being equal?

I cannot predict that; I do not think it is possible to predict that. We obviously have prediction figures for this year based on the current system without any further changes taking place. For example, where we have allocated safe countries, the number of people coming from those safe countries has dropped significantly. As we apply much more efficient procedures and quicker processing, the response will be that there will be fewer people coming from those countries but it is very difficult to predict what the overall numbers will be. It changes and no country would be able to predict what those numbers might be.

It would be important to estimate that because all we have to do is kick a football from where we are sitting and the streets are populated with tents. We seem to have gotten to a point in this country where we are struggling to accommodate the numbers who are coming in. We are talking here about bringing in a mechanism, streamlining and fast-tracking, call it what you may. It is important that we have some idea of what kinds of numbers we are talking about here.

For example, just over 5,000 people have applied so far this year and we are coming to the end of April. We know that more than 50% of those are secondary movements. At the moment, we do not have an effective system of returns. The Dublin III Regulation is not working. If we were to be in the migration pact where we would have more effective systems of returns, we could have half of those numbers whereby we would be able to issue a take-back order and where a significant number of those people would have already been processed in another member state. It means they would spend less time in Ireland and less time in accommodation, again freeing up accommodation potentially for others or meaning we would require less accommodation than we do now. We are looking at the figures we have now without applying the faster processing, the better returns mechanism and a uniform approach across the EU. It could be the case that if we do not apply all of these new measures, we would be seen as a country that would be of greater benefit for people to come to. We could actually see an increase in people coming here because they might think they would not be processed as quickly or that we cannot return them to other countries. We have to look at it in the context of what the figures are now and if we were to apply the new systems, how that would potentially impact the overall figures. More than 5,000 people have applied for international protection this year and if half of those are secondary movements, the impact this new system would have on those figures can be seen.

Is it fair to say that currently our EU colleagues are not co-operating with us on secondary movements?

It is not that they are not co-operating with us; it is just a system that does not work. It is based on a request. It is based on the member state we are requesting-----

Ultimately, if someone arrives here from Paris and is clearly a secondary movement, we contact the French authorities. Do they not take that individual back?

In the vast majority of cases, no.

One can say it is not working or that they are not co-operating.

It is not working but it is not working for anybody. It is not a system that is benefiting anybody. Obviously, as a country that has significant numbers of secondary movements, we are impacted more than other countries perhaps.

With regard to secondary movements, does the Minister have any idea how many come through the Border with Northern Ireland to seek international protection here?

A significant proportion of people are coming through the Border now.

Will the Minister give us a figure?

I would say higher than 80%.

Some 80% of applications. That is particularly worrying. What are the UK authorities saying to us?

We engage with the UK authorities on a regular basis. We have a common travel area committee, which meets on a quarterly basis, but we also have continuous engagement between our relevant departments. The PSNI works closely with An Garda Síochána in identifying where people are coming through Northern Ireland and applying for asylum here. The challenge we have is that we advocated for no border on this island. I do not think anybody would say we should not have that situation but it is absolutely a challenge.

I know that but there are two years before this migration pact may or may not be invoked. What do we do in the meantime to improve the current situation?

As the UK is not in the EU, it would not be part of this migration pact so we have a separate agreement with it. We have a returns agreement with the UK. There have been issues in recent weeks because of a High Court ruling. To my earlier point I will bring forward legislation to address that in a matter of weeks because it has to be the case that we can return people to the UK.

We have an open border with the UK and that creates a challenge. We work through co-operation. We have an agreement with the UK, unlike other member states, and this is because of the common travel area and the open border.

Is a review mechanism built into the EU migration pact? Normally when legislation is introduced there is a review, which is what most organisations do. Is there a mechanism for a review in the EU migration pact?

No. Once we opt in, we are opting in to the measure. We would be speaking about something much more significant for us to pull out of measures or potentially to pull out of the EU. We are opting in. We have passed legislation which means we are legally bound. If changes are to take place, we would negotiate and work through those changes with our colleagues. With regard to the UK, it is a two-way flow. There are people who arrive here who are looking to get to the UK. They travel northwards. That is why North-South co-operation is required.

In the Minister's opinion is it a mistake not to have a review mechanism? This is something completely new. The Minister said it will take eight to ten years to kick in so surely it would be sensible to have a review mechanism, perhaps after 12 months or two years, to see where improvements could be made. Are we not tying our hands by not having a review mechanism in place?

If we opt in, we are opting in to these measures. It is the case at European level that any measures or laws that are passed are continuously reviewed. A new asylum agency has been established, which we opted in to last year. One of the benefits of the agency is that we are pooling together our resources to look at migratory flows, the challenges and issues that arise, what works and what does not, what supports might be needed and what changes might be needed. There is a built-in mechanism whereby the Commission always looks at what works and does not work.

The reason this pact is happening now is that the measures we adopted previously are not working. Dublin III is not working. We need to have a common system whereby we do not have one country doing something differently, which means people apply for asylum in a number of member states and take away spaces from those who genuinely could be using the system. This updates the previous systems because they did not work. If, in several years' time, we were to identify that we need to change the system again, it has always been the case that the EU works collectively and together. I cannot stress enough that we cannot do this on our own. We cannot deal with this on our own. The UK has tried to do it on its own. Not only has the number of people seeking international protection there increased, but it is now looking to mirror much of what we are developing in the pact to try to ensure it has a system that works as well.

Earlier, the Minister said the new take-back mechanism will be better and that it will not be open to other countries to frustrate it. In 2023, the Department issued 188 transfer decisions. This means there were 188 cases where another country said it was responsible for processing a person and that it would take these persons back. Of these 188, three were transferred. Will the Minister explain that?

That shows the inefficiency of the Dublin III system-----

It shows the inefficiency of the Department. Other countries said they would take them back. They accepted they would take them back and that they have responsibility. The Department transferred three of them. Where is the problem?

We can only issue a take-back request. It is then for those countries-----

No. The other country accepted responsibility and that it would take them back. A decision was made to transfer them and three of the 188 were transferred. Where is the problem?

Again, it is my understanding that it was not within the timeframe. I have not seen the details of the cases but if it is not within that timeframe, even if-----

Yes, but why would the Department run out of time? It has six months.

If the other country frustrates-----

No, the other countries did not frustrate it. They accepted they were taking these people back so what is the problem in the Department with implementing the Dublin III regulation?

If Deputy McNamara can show me they were accepted within the six-month timeframe-----

If Deputy McNamara can show that to me-----

You cannot issue a transfer decision without another country accepting responsibility, so that was done. I will move on.

The Minister says it does not work generally. Senator Ward suggested, and I would have assumed the same thing, that Ireland would be a beneficiary and we would send back more people than we accept but in 2022 we took back 15 people and transferred two. In the same year, Germany transferred 4,158 people. We transferred two. I accept Germany is a bigger country but it is not that much bigger. France transferred 3,311 people. Will the Minister explain the massive discrepancy between the ability of the German and French departments of justice to implement their immigration policy and our ability to implement ours? It is the same system. How come they are able to operate it and we are not?

What will change with the new rules? If we cannot operate the existing rules, how can we operate the new rules any better?

I cannot speak for other countries and I do not know the overall figures they received. As a much larger country with a much greater influx of people seeking-----

It is not 2,000 times bigger.

-----protection, there is obviously a much greater number of people that Germany may be able to return. One of the biggest challenges we have faced is getting acceptance within the six-month period.

As I said, last year there were 188 acceptances and three were transferred. I want to move on.

We did have a situation last year whereby Greece and Italy stopped accepting some of the returns.

These were people who were accepted and the Department managed to transfer three.

They did not take them after accepting them.

The Minister said we will not opt in to the returns procedure because we are not in Schengen. Does she accept that at present there is the application in the first instance, a right of appeal to IPAT, and then people may apply for permission to remain if they are unsuccessful up to that point? This is where the delays are. How many cases involving people who have been unsuccessful in the asylum system, that is, who have been refused at first instance or on appeal and have made an application for permission to remain to the Minister, are outstanding as we speak?

I do not have the figure to hand but I can-----

I asked for this figure two months ago and the Minister said she would give it to me when she had it to hand. She still does not have it to hand. Does she have any handle on immigration? Does the Department have a handle on it? I do not mean the Minister personally. Does the Department have a handle on what is happening in immigration in Ireland?

The Department has done outstanding work in recent years.

I have asked for very basic figures on the numbers outstanding. These are applications to the Minister as the Minister for Justice.

A number of matters are being raised in the course of today's deliberations. I invite the Minister to circulate the information to the committee afterwards. Considering Deputy McNamara has said he asked for the figure two months ago, it would seem reasonable that we would have it now.

Perhaps the Minister can include it among the information we are looking for in the next couple of days.

I also asked for month-on-month figures. It is important to see whether there is a trend. Is the backlog getting bigger? That is what I hear at the Four Courts but it is anecdotal unless the Minister gives the figures. Only she and the Department have the figures but they are not giving them, which makes me a little bit suspicious.

Until now, the IPO and IPAT have been doing reasonably well. They are struggling but they are keeping pace with applications. It seems it is the Department of Justice directly that is not keeping pace with applications for permission to remain. If I am not mistaken, because we will not opt into the returns directive this will still be the case after the migration pact comes into being. We will still have to have our own returns procedure because we are not in Schengen and there will be permission to remain. What will change?

As I outlined in response to an earlier question, while we cannot opt in to the return border procedure because we are not part of Schengen, the intention is that we will still apply the 12-week rule in terms of the returns procedure. It would be for us to develop the legislation.

Applications that are now taking two to three years to process will be processed in 12 weeks. I find that difficult to accept.

Will Senators and Deputies get to vote on all the measures individually or will we be told it is all or nothing and that we will not vote on these various regulations and Bills individually?

I propose that we vote on them collectively-----

It will be all or nothing.

-----because they have been negotiated together and they are all very much interconnected.

They are separate pieces of legislation. We have opted in to the procedures directive. There will be a recast procedures directive. It might be logical that we opt in to that. In the context that we took back 15 persons and transferred two in 2022 it seems the burden sharing will be one way. It will not be a panacea. It does not offer the solutions that one might expect it would offer, as Senator Ward did and as the Minister has promised.

When we signed up to the Lisbon treaty we made a declaration that we would participate to the maximum extent possible. There is a duty of sincere co-operation.

It would be more than unusual if, having negotiated all seven of these measures, we were not proposing them collectively as a whole-of-government, whole-of-EU response to what is one of the biggest challenges that we face. If anybody can tell me any of the seven measures that will not benefit Ireland, and why and how they are not interconnected, then that is another thing. However, somebody has yet to tell me which of the seven measures will not benefit Ireland and why.

On the burden sharing, and given that 15 people were transferred back to Ireland in 2022 and two people were transferred out, we seem unable to operate the existing system. How can we have confidence that we will operate a new one?

There are two separate items in the same measure. The take-back notification is separate to the solidarity mechanism. The solidarity mechanism will be if you have a massive influx of people and where the EU will then identify, based on GDP and our population, what percentage we could potentially take. Again, we have the option to pay money instead. That will not change and it will not be forced upon us. The take-back mechanism is separate to that. While they are under the one mechanism, they are two separate issues.

I have other questions but I will await the second round. I thank the Chair and the Minister.

I thank the Chair for allowing me to ask a question at the committee here today. I listened to the Minister, and I suppose we all want to ensure that we have a system that is fair, efficient and robust, that people can have confidence in, where those who are seeking asylum legitimately are afforded asylum and those who are playing the system are returned to the country they came from. Unfortunately, a higher percentage of the people who we represent do not have confidence in our current system. The Minister said that in years gone by, it had taken much longer to process applications than it currently does. Why did the Department allow a situation to arise - at a time when there were perhaps only 3,000 people seeking international protection - where it took so many years for applications to be processed?

I can only speak on my own behalf, on the work that has been done in recent years, and the huge efforts that have been made to try to address the increase in numbers. In the last two and a half years, the number of people working in the International Protection Office has more than doubled. We had given ourselves a target of 7,500 first instance decisions. Last year, we reached 9,000. We are on track to do even better this year but obviously that is against the backdrop of an increasing number of people seeking protection. We are now investing significantly in technology, making sure that where possible, applications are processed online. When the systems move online, that then frees up members of staff to be able to process, do interviews and make sure that the system works as effectively as possible.

While I cannot comment on previous decisions that were taken, what I can say now is that we are moving to a much more efficient and effective system. The measures in this pact are measures we should really be aiming for anyway. It is, of course, a challenge to make sure we get to the point where we can process everybody in two, three or six months but I think it is a goal we should be trying to reach.

Does the Minister agree that the exorbitant lengths of time it has taken has undermined the confidence of the people in the system? I agree that it is welcome that the process has become a lot more efficient but the inefficiency has led to an erosion of confidence in the system initially.

Again, we are looking at approaching this from a cross-European perspective, which I think is right. Why, as a country, have we designated a lot fewer safe countries than many of our European counterparts?

We have ten designated. That number has increased in recent months, and I am currently reviewing eight. I can only speak to the Deputy about the decisions I have taken but the decisions were taken only in recent years.

The Minister has been in place for four years and the number of safe countries that Ireland has designated is much lower than, say, even the likes of Holland. Why?

We have to look at the number of people coming from these countries as well. At the moment, of the ten countries, they account for about 7% of overall applications. We specifically designated certain countries. Having gone through the process, they were designated as having met the criteria where we saw a massive influx or an increase, in particular Georgia and South Africa. Since applying the accelerated procedures and designating them as safe countries, those numbers have dropped dramatically. While we have ten countries on the safe list, they only account for about 7% of applications at the moment. We are reviewing eight other countries but again, they will not-----

When will that review be concluded?

It is almost complete but it will not necessarily mean that 60% of applications are suddenly in an accelerated procedure. It is actually quite a small number. There are a lot of countries that are not safe, that we should not even be looking at and that are never going to be deemed safe. We can review them and look at them but it will not have an impact on the volume. We do not necessarily have people coming from the countries that other people have designated as safe. For example, Germany might have a particular country that it has designated as safe and we have not but it might be the case that it has a larger proportion of people coming from that country and we do not. Therefore, it is not necessary to designate them as safe.

The Minister used the example of Georgia, which was not on the safe list initially, even though it was a country that had applied for membership of the EU. By virtue of that alone, it would render it a safe country. I am just pointing out that the delay in the Department taking actions is undermining the confidence of the people in the system.

I am conscious that I am curtailed by the time that I have. The 30,000 per annum figure - is that 30,000 figure across the whole of the EU?

Would the Minister agree that this figure is reflective, considering that in her own contribution to this, the Minister referenced that 13,000 came into Ireland last year. If we are talking about 30,000 seeking asylum across the EU, how would that figure be realistic considering that 13,000 came into Ireland last year?

I have one final question. The Minister said that investing in technology is going to be key to ensuring that we have an efficient and fair system. I asked previously, by way of a parliamentary question, why Ireland was not signing up to the visa information system, a technological system that is across the EU and that would help identify whether somebody who presents at a port or airport had already commenced an asylum process in another country, or what stage they were at in an immigration process in another country. Does the Minister think it would be wise to reconsider whether we should sign into that visa information system?

On the safe countries, Georgia has been designated since 2018. Where it actually has effect is where we have applied in the last year the accelerated procedure. In other words, it can be a safe country but that does not mean you are going to be processed any quicker. It did not have an impact. It has been designated since 2018 when we saw an increase in numbers. The only way it has dropped is by putting them into the accelerated procedure, so that is what has really made the difference with regard to the safe countries.

On the 30,000 figure, that is solely related to reallocations. We are expecting front-line member state, in particular Italy, Greece, Cyprus and others, to do a huge amount of the work here. We are expecting them to have screening procedures and to be the first countries to process the applications. If countries are then looking to send them back, we expect them to take them back. We expecting this of a huge amount of countries that are at the front face of this, and 30,000 is a relatively small number across the EU when it comes to reallocations if you consider the number of people that are probably arriving and will be arriving in those countries simply because of where they are geographically. Of the 30,000, overall it is a figure of 648 for Ireland. In the context of our 13,000 people, it is a relatively small figure that we do not even have to take. We can provide funding instead. The figure of 30,000 is not reflective or everybody who is coming to the EU. It is a much greater figure. It is simply the reallocation number, taking into account the fact that these countries are going to be, and have been for many years, under significant pressure. However, they do not have an option to opt out here. They are part of this pact, and are committing to doing what they can to try to process, house and support people. It is important that we play our part here as well.

On the visa information system, we cannot be part of it. We are not part of Schengen, so it is simply not an option for us.

There is no other country that is not a member of Schengen that has not opted into that visa information system.

No, you cannot unless you are part of Schengen. An open border and common travel area with the UK prevents us from it because of the Schengen need for it to be able to manage borders and obviously, we have an open border.

It precludes us for that reason. Due to the common travel area, we cannot opt into anything that is Schengen-related.

I thank the Minister. More than 160 human rights organisations across Europe, including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, have raised concerns about the content of the pact. Does that level of opposition to the pact among human rights groups give the Minister any cause for concern?

It has been the case over the past eight years that any of the concerns that have been raised are taken into consideration. If the Deputy is asking for my personal view, the more efficient a system we have the better we can protect people who genuinely need it.

The Minister mentioned the 80% of people who come from North to South without documentation. The border procedure we are opting into must take place at designated locations near the border or in another area designated by the member state. Where does the Minister envisage we have this border procedure? Will it be on the road to Belfast?

To be clear, it is not the case that everybody comes without documentation. People who have been in the UK cross with documentation to seek asylum. It is the case that if people are identified as having come from Northern Ireland, they can have that procedure applied to them or we can designate somewhere as a port of entry. That is what we have for our ports and airports. If we were to apply it somewhere else, that would have implications in cases where, for example, somebody arrived at a port or airport without documentation or seeking asylum. That is open for us to do. When we have more than 400 crossings along the Border, that is a significant challenge.

Given that challenge, does the Minister envisage having border procedures between the North and South?

Not along the Border, no. It is the case that one would have checks in the normal way in surrounding areas where there are normal Garda checks or checkpoints. This would be part of the checks that take place.

In a scenario where a person comes here without documentation from the North, what happens to that person? The Minister mentioned an ongoing court case. Does the 12-week rule still apply?

It depends on where the person has been identified. If any person is in the country seeking asylum and does not have papers or a right to be here, it is a criminal offence. It is the case that people have been charged recently, having arrived at our borders or ports of entry. If somebody is apprehended or stopped by a member of An Garda Síochána in transit, the same would apply in that instance.

We are in a scenario where the UK is not part of this pact, for obvious reasons. To where would such a person be returned?

We have a agreement with the UK in terms of returns. Due to the common travel area, we have had extensive engagement to make sure that we have an efficient system that works both ways, obviously. Where we can return somebody to the UK, as I mentioned there are challenges that have arisen which we will rectify through amendments in the coming weeks related to the High Court ruling.

Can the Minister outline what that legislation might entail?

It will be a short miscellaneous Bill. It will rectify the ruling where it was identified that we had not set out properly whether somebody might not be a risk if he or she was returned to a country. That applies to the UK.

The country we return them to may send them to Rwanda.

The UK passed legislation last night. I will not comment on its policy and what happens there.

This is our policy.

Absolutely. If somebody arrives here from the UK, we have to have an effective system of returning them to the country from where they have come. I am absolutely certain that we have to have such a system, and I will ensure that we have it.

I refer to circumstances where some of the people who are forced through the border procedure will not have identity documents such as, for example, a person coming here from Somalia. The Taliban only recently started reissuing documents. We understand why this happens. Is the Minister confident that we will be able to stick to the timeline of 12 weeks?

The objective is to achieve that timeline. We have a percentage that we have to reach within that time. We will obviously endeavour to go beyond that figure overall. We will try to deal with anybody who is applying through the border procedure or where the border procedure applies to him or her within that timeframe. There is a way in which our interviews take place. The people who do this every day are able to engage and identify whether a person is genuine, whether people have papers or that they have gone through something and need protection. That is what the system is about. It is about making sure someone has the time to make their case.

Applicants already under the border procedure are not authorised to enter the territory of the member state. We will have a legal fiction of international applicants who are in the country but who are not deemed to be in our territory. Is that correct?

Can the Minister outline the reasons for that? Is it to ensure they do not have the same level of legal-----

I apologise but I am finding it difficult to hear.

We will have a scenario in which people will be in the country but will be deemed not to be in our territory under this procedure. Given this kind of Schrödinger's asylum process that we will have, whereby people are here but are not here, can the Minister outline the justification for that? It is to ensure that they do not have the same legal recourse?

Absolutely not. They will have the same ability to appeal as any others. It is about the timeframe. There would be designated accommodation for those in the border procedure. They would be separate. This is not about locking people up. Rather, we are talking about having a designated area for accommodation where people would stay. It would not be a detention type setting. There may be other types of accommodation specific to people who come through the inadmissibility procedure or who apply in the ordinary way. We have to have specific designated reception centres or accommodation for people coming through the border procedure. That does not preclude people from having access to their fundamental rights or being able to apply in the same way.

Will certain families with children fall under this border procedure? Ireland will, in effect, hold children in detention centres with fewer rights as part of the deal. Can the children go to school?

They will not be in detention centres. They will be in accommodation and free to come and go. We will not put barbed wire, fences or security around them. There will be a designated centre to make sure that we can apply this in the quickest way possible. That is what this procedure is about. If somebody comes without documentation, with false documentation or is highlighted as a security risk, they will go into this procedure. This also applies in a country where the approval rate is less than 20%. The border procedure is very specific. Other people will go through a separate process. They still have the right to appeal and go through the process; things will just happen much more quickly.

I want to ask about the accelerated deadlines. The Minister earlier asked why we would not have them. One reason that we would not have them is because we would face fines from the EU if we did not stick to the deadlines. How much will the fines be? How exposed could we be if we were not able to stick to the deadline of 12 weeks?

We have already signed up to certain measures whereby we have to adhere to conditions and certain measures. We will have to reach a percentage within those timelines. We will then address the remaining figure within the timeframe. If it is the case that a significant number of people come to this country and we are not able to complete the process within the timeframe, we can then apply for a crisis or force majeure situation. That can be assessed. If approved, we can set aside those timelines or extend or change them so that we are able to deal with the increase in the number of people in the system.

The period involved is three months, but if we need to extend that we can do so. The timelines are there to benefit us. We have a percentage that we have to apply those timelines to, but my intention is that the two-month timeline should apply to everybody in respect of the inadmissibility procedure. A three-month period should apply to everyone in the border system and six months for the ordinary process. We have to set ourselves the target. If we are under pressure, there is an option, through these measures, to be able to set those rules aside.

The next speaker is Deputy Harkin. Senator Keogan is up after that. Deputy Mattie McGrath has joined us and I presume he wants to speak. He will be after that. We will start the second round with members first and then go to those in attendance. We have to conclude at 7 p.m. as the Minister is due in the Chamber. There is enough time to get everybody in at least once.

I thank the Minister. She said that over 80% of those applying for asylum come across the Border. Is that correct?

That is recent - it was in the past three years - but it has increased.

That means the major issue is not with secondary movements. The Minister tells us we are going to reduce them, but the major issue is not secondary movements from the EU. The significant issue is people coming across the Border. Am I correct?

In some instances, yes, but a lot of people have transited through the EU before they get to the UK. Under this new procedure, before they even reach the UK they will be screened and then come up on a system. The UK would not necessarily be the first designated country. It could be another European country. A lot of people start in another EU country and go to the UK and we might see movement then. However, some people will arrive in the UK as their first port of entry and that is where the parallel agreement we have with the UK is important and needs to kick in.

It is obviously not working because of the court judgment. What were the numbers like previous to the court judgment? What percentage were sent back or what was the situation?

I do not have those figures to hand, but it is the case that those numbers have increased significantly in recent months. I will have to get the figures.

Perhaps the Minister will get those. My other question refers to the idea of sovereignty. I do not believe what we are doing here is unconstitutional because I canvassed twice for the Lisbon treaty and it was clear that it gave us the opportunity to opt in or stay out if we wanted to. I think one of the reasons people voted for the Lisbon treaty was that we had that opt-out. If we are going to change that, we have to have a good reason. The Minister is proposing we change that, which means in areas where we have sole decision-making power we will pool that decision making. That does mean we are ceding sovereignty. It is not unconstitutional. It is constitutional, but we are now ceding sovereignty by pooling our decision-making because that, in the first place, is what the EU treaties are about overall. It is important to establish that fact and that we do not mix up the two things. What is the Minister's view on that?

I agree with the Deputy's initial point. It was made clear under the Lisbon treaty that security issues and migration are a European competence, but we fought to ensure we had the opt-in so nothing would be forced upon us. What we are now talking about is no different from any of the other measures we have already opted in to. It is an upgrading of many of the options we are already a part of.

By opting in we are ceding sovereignty.

We are choosing to opt in.

Yes, we are choosing to cede it. That is an important point. I am not saying it is good or bad, but I am saying it is the situation.

The Minister keeps telling us that this is positive for Ireland and it will be reduce secondary movements. I am happy to accept that, but it will not reduce asylum seekers or asylum beneficiaries. Those numbers will probably increase, so the overall burden on the EU will not be diminished. Just because it reduces secondary movement, that does not mean it will reduce in any way the obligations we will have under the solidarity mechanism. While I see 648 is the number, there is no way the number will remain at that level. That is looking at 30,000 reallocations. Those numbers are so small I cannot believe it. Why did they come up with those numbers?

That is the number originally identified by the Commission.

Why? It does not bear any resemblance to the reality.

It is the minimum number, so it definitely can increase. It would have to increase with the approval of all member states. Again, it is only the reallocation. It is not reflective of the overall figure, but the only way this will work is if we also look at the preventative side. The pact is to respond to those who are already coming to Europe and seeking protection, but we need to make sure we are looking at the root causes and that work is ongoing in parallel. If more people are on the move, we need to address why more people are moving.

That is not what we are talking about here.

No, we are not.

We are talking about numbers in legislation that in no way reflect the reality on the ground. I just do not understand that. I have only a few seconds remaining but I will come back. The Minister commented several times that Ireland would be more attractive to asylum seekers if it did not opt in. I find that hard to believe. Denmark, which has a much tougher asylum system than we have, decided not to opt in. If the Danish thought that staying out would make the country more attractive, I suspect they would have opted in. I do not expect the Minister to comment on Danish policy, but we should not neglect that fact.

Denmark does not have an option to opt in. When it agreed to join, in a similar way that we negotiated the opt-in, Denmark decided not to apply asylum rules and regulations. It is part of Schengen, though, so it is not opting out of any of the Schengen measures.

It is not that it is not opting in but that it cannot opt in.

It has a separate parallel process, but that is not we looked for or agreed to, and it is not what people signed up to when they voted for the Lisbon treaty. They signed up to us deciding whether we wanted to opt in. We are not the same as Denmark and I do not think we can be compared to Denmark.

The question is why Denmark is not more attractive. If not joining makes us more attractive, why is Denmark not more attractive?

Denmark's system is different from ours. It is a system where people are detained. They are not allowed leave. You can look at what the reception conditions are like compared to ours.

Yet it operates under EU rules.

It operates differently.

It has different agreements with different member states in terms of returns or take-backs, but it is a fact that Denmark detains people in the same way that they would be detained in prison. Those are the rules it applies. That is the decision it took.

That is still the EU.

That is not the decision we have taken and not the route we have chosen, and I do not think the majority of people would like us to go down that route. That is Denmark's decision and I am not commenting on it - good, bad or indifferent. However, that is a very different system. Denmark is part of Schengen, so it applies all of the different Schengen rules. We cannot do that because we are not part of Schengen, for obvious reasons. Denmark is not operating in the same way and it applies different rules with other member states.

I understand that, but it still operates within the EU treaties.

The Minister referred to a 50% GDP and 50% population calculation. Will she clarify this is the calculation in Article 44k of the asylum and migration management regulation, which states that "The share of solidarity contributions to be provided by each Member State referred to in Article 44b(2) shall be calculated in accordance with the formula set out" in annexe 3? In 2022, 5.1 million migrants came to the EU from outside. Has someone in the Minister's Department run the calculations?

It is not about the overall numbers; this is just about the relocation.

What are the numbers? Does the Minister know how many people we would have been required to take in 2022 if this were the law?

The Senator is quoting migration numbers, not asylum numbers.

They are migration numbers, yes.

That is not people applying for asylum.

Can she base her figure on that? Wars happen all of the time. Crises will happen all of the time. Based on something that might happen in the future and the fact that 5.1 million migrants came to the EU from outside in 2022, has somebody in the Department run calculations of what our figure would be based on that?

First, that is a migration figure. It is not people applying for asylum so we have not done a figure based on that because it does not apply in any way, shape or form. The 2.16%, which is calculated via GDP and population, only applies to the reallocation or solidarity mechanism.

What is clearly set out is that 30,000 is the figure that can increase. It will not increase to 5 million people. I cannot envisage a situation ever arising where that figure would increase to 5 million people.

I have run the figure, and it is just over 100,000. How could we possibly handle a minimum of 100,000 migrants at any point in the coming years?

We are not asking anyone to do that. The Senator is taking a figure for overall-----

At the end of the day, it could happen-----

The Senator is answering her own questions.

It could happen.

Halt for a second, Senator. Deputy Farrell made an intervention. The Senator is entitled to make whatever points she wants. We can agree or disagree or take views on them, but I do not think interventions are necessary. The only thing I would say to the Senator is that-----

At this moment in time, I think it is important that we put the figures out there in respect of this matter-----

I have given the Senator a degree of latitude-----

-----and it is important that the information we are presenting here is actually factual.

When the Department does not actually know what that figure might be-----

I am the Chair and the Senator should let me speak. I am coming to her assistance and supporting her right to speak, but she must respect everyone else as well. I am actually coming to her aid here, if she listens carefully to what I am saying. The Senator may continue her contribution. The one thing I would say that might be helpful is if the Senator is talking about figures, like 5.1 million migrants, the Minister has suggested this includes legal migration, that is, people coming to work, etc., with visas and everything in proper order. It would be helpful to have an understanding, certainly from my perspective, of whether that is the figure and if it does embrace all those categories as the Minister suggested. The Senator might clarify for the benefit of the committee whether that is the. This information will feed into our deliberations and it would save us from having to come back at a future date to ask for clarification of the figure. The Senator may continue.

This document on the crisis and force majeure regulation is 83 pages long. I am not too sure whether anyone in the Department has read it or if any fluent or native speaker has read it. I refer to the review of the crisis and force majeure regulation, which is nothing short of legally ambiguous phrasing, at best. At worst, it is an insult to speakers of the English language. It is of crucial importance that language within legislation is clear. Judges, courts, lawyers, police, border control agents, social workers and all kinds of departmental officials will depend on these documents when ruling on and enforcing the wording of these documents when they come into law.

Let us start on page 4 of the text of the proposal for the crisis and force majeure regulation. There is a problem with every single page, but let us go to this page first. Paragraph 3 on this page has a sentence that reads: "the Union has at its disposal specific rules to effectively manage migration, in particular the triggering of a mandatory solidarity mechanism and that all the necessary measures are put in place to prevent crisis to happen". That is awful English. It should say, "from happening". Moving to page 24, paragraph 40 states that, "The Member State[s] facing a situation of crisis or force majeure may need more time to be able to take decisions on their applications without allowing entry into the territory". It should not say "without", but, rather, "before". Otherwise, a literal reading could be interpreted as preventing entry if more time is needed. The problem is that this sentence is far too unclear. The document is littered with sentences of this nature. It is actually gibberish, to tell the truth. I want to know how this document can be transposed into Irish law when it is not coherent. That is the first question.

I turn now to the other document. I struggled to get through all these texts, but I did get through two of them with the help and support of several people. Paragraph 47 of this document on the asylum and migration management regulation states that:

The scope of the definition of family ... should ... reflect the reality of current migratory trends, according to which applicants [should] often arrive to the territory of the Member States after a prolonged period of time in transit. The definition should therefore include families formed outside the country of origin, ... [and] before their arrival on the territory of the Member State.

What is the "reality of current migratory trends" and why should our definition of "family" be redesigned to fit this vague criterion? Regarding the reference to "families formed outside the country of origin", who is to decide whether a family has been formed? Are there objective criteria like marriage or a civil partnership? If this happens outside the country of origin, how would it be proved? Moreover, will the EU Commission be in the role of deciding what is the definition of a family? Will that durable relationship that you all wanted to get in on 8 March now become part of this?

I think we have strayed slightly out of the scope of the pact. In any event, if the Minister wishes to answer any of those points, she is welcome to do so.

I can reassure the Senator that these are documents that have gone through extensive engagement with legal teams, legal professionals and legal translators. As a country, we then transpose this legislation and obviously do so with the Senator and other colleagues across both Houses. I assure the Senator that my team and others have gone through this in great detail. The language that has been settled on has gone through many processes and stages. In terms of the family unit, we apply that here ourselves in terms of what that looks like. Obviously, we have a definition for it here.

I am going to go to the next speaker, but I have a point of information before I do so. As standard, European law is displayed in all the languages of the EU. There is nothing unusual about this situation. Naturally, when translations are done across multiple languages, we, as native speakers, might identify nuances or little tics in the language that we might have phrased somewhat differently. As one who regularly reads European law to keep me awake at night, however, I do not find-----

Will it be done in the Irish language?

Yes, of course.

It will be. That is fine.

It will be translated into every European Union language, which includes the Irish language.

It is normal, though, not to find the same vernacular as we might expect, especially if we are talking about a text that has been translated across multiple different versions. I call Deputy Mattie McGrath.

Go raibh maith agat. I apologise if my questions are repetitive. I was addressing other issues in the Dáil. Opting into this pact greatly undermines Ireland's democratic sovereignty by giving exclusive power to the EU to decide on our immigration policies. The pact includes a mandatory solidarity mechanism, forcing countries to choose between accepting migrants or paying hefty sums into a common fund.

A question I wish to pose to the Minister at the outset is whether she will publish the advice received from the Attorney General regarding opting in to this pact. We know the saga that went on before the referendums, and we see it now. According to the pact, a minimum of 30,000 asylum seekers would be distributed annually throughout the bloc. Some member states have to pay up to €20,000 for every migrant they reject. Slovakia has calculated that amount and estimated the cost would be €10 million annually. Have the Minister and her Department done any calculations concerning what the cost implications would be for our public purse here in respect of the numbers we would refuse if we opted into this pact? Would that be an annual figure?

Are we being unduly penalised because of our inflated GDP figures due to the contribution of multinationals? Thankfully, we are lucky in that respect at the moment. If the situation changes, however, how are we going to pay this kind of money? We have seen the Polish Prime Minister declare that his government would refuse to accept any relocated asylum seekers under this pact. In simple terms, this pact is viewed as an invitation to millions of migrants to come to Europe.

I refer to opting in and not having meaningful debate. In responding to the last question from Senator Keogan, the Minister said there has been exhaustive and extensive background work here. Why, then, are only three and a half hours of debate on the matter being allowed at this committee? There will obviously be the debate in the Dáil, but it will be restricted as well. The stark reality is that the EU migration pact designed to streamline migration policies and address the challenges of asylum seekers means that Ireland is ceding control over our borders and immigration procedures. It sticks out as plain as the nose on my face that we are ceding our sovereignty. The pact represents a significant erosion of national sovereignty, synthesising migration policies and imposing quotas on member states.

That will result in non-elected EU institutions undermining our ability to make independent decisions. That, for me anyway, clearly sets off alarm bells. As a democrat elected by the Irish people, I firmly believe, with every fibre of my being, that preserving sovereignty is paramount, even in the face of shared migration challenges. For Ireland to legally opt in to the obligations contained in the regulatory framework underpinning the pact, the matter has to be the subject of independent decisions by resolution taken separately by each House of the Oireachtas.

Will we see the Attorney General's advice? Why is there the indecent haste? If it has been so many years in gestation and there has so much exhaustive work, how come we are rushing it? It went through the Dáil last week without debate and now it is in committee for three and a half hours at most. I would have thought something like this would deserve much more extensive assessment, evaluation, questions and answers. Can the Minister please answer those questions?

As to the Deputy's last question, the first iteration was presented in 2016. There is, and has been, an option for any member of this committee or any Member of the Houses to raise any of the issues that were presented in 2016, or in 2020 with the second iteration. There was nothing to stop Deputies or Senators from putting down questions, calling for debates, bringing forward Private Members' Bills or motions, Topical Issues or Commencement matters, all which I always endeavour to respond to. For the last eight years, it has been open to Members of the Houses to put down questions or to seek to engage on this. We had recent debates on immigration and there were two significant debates in the Houses in which I outlined this. Obviously, it was open for Deputies to raise concerns there as well.

In terms of whether this takes away our sovereignty, in the same way that the Irish people voted to elected Deputy McGrath, they also voted to sign up to the Lisbon treaty. It was made clear in the Lisbon treaty that we would have an option to opt in to these types of measures when it comes to migration and security. Nothing is forced on us. We have opted in to a significant number to date. My preference is that we opt in at the earlier stages because if we opt in now, then we have an opportunity to work through the detail and be part of those discussions. Opting in at a later stage means you do not have those options. That is why we have the timeframe now, but this has been open to anyone to raise any matter which has been very public for the last eight years. Obviously, that has not happened for whatever reason.

As for the funding, €12.960 million would be sought from us instead of taking 648 people, if that is what we chose. That is actually a lower figure than what it currently costs us to house, accommodate and process someone at the moment, which costs, on average, approximately €25,500 for one year. People might stay shorter or longer and that figure would equate to €20,000. If we do not sign up to the various measures, have a greater and faster way to return and process people, which means people spend longer here, that figure will obviously be much more. The more efficient the process we have, the quicker we can turn people around and the better process we have for returning people, the more cost effective it will be than what we are paying now where people are longer in accommodation, it takes longer to process them and we do not have an efficient way of returning them. Overall, we estimate that the cost would be less, even potentially with increased migration globally. Yes, the figure of €30,000 is the minimum figure, but our percentage is quite minimal when it is looked at; it is 2.16%. Nothing will be forced on us. We can choose to take people or pay the figure instead. As I said, the figure is actually less than what it costs us to house and to process people here at the moment.

I will allow Deputy McGrath to ask a brief supplementary question. Before he does so, I wish to make a point of information as he raised a matter in regard to this committee and how much time we have to debate this. We have a deadline of 3 May. The motion that referred the matter to us contained that within it. That is outside of our control. However, within the time that we have to respond to it, we scheduled an additional hearing next week. We will have two three-hour sessions. We have the session today and a second session being organised, where we will hear from expert witnesses. For everyone's information, that is the plan. We have two weeks and we are making the most of the two weeks, just so members are aware of that.

There have obviously been measures to which we have opted in prior to now and they have been debated in this committee. Recently, or last year, we opted into the new agency. This was debated. We have opted in to recent measures around human trafficking and this was debated here. It is not to suggest that there have not been debates in this House, but at any stage, the Deputy could have raised a Topical Issue matter on any of these matters. Nobody is precluded from doing that.

We raise Topical Issue matters all the time but most of the time, we are lucky to have the line Minister or the Minister of State.

I asked the Minister whether she and the Government will publish the Attorney General's advice in relation to not holding a referendum on this and other aspects of it. As I said, you would nearly think it was our fault this was being rushed and that we had eight years to raise this. The way the Minister is talking, it is like it is our fault that it has been there since 2016 and that we did not ask questions. That is not true because there are limited ways of raising it on Questions on Policy or Legislation, on the Order of Business or during Topical Issue matters, or during Commencement matters in the Seanad. As I said, you do not even get the line Minister answering. I seldom get a Minister to answer questions; it is the Minister of State or someone else. Will the Minister publish the Attorney General's advice?

The Attorney General's advice is never published, but what I will say is that we have a constitutional requirement that any measure we opt in to be approved by both Houses and that is obviously what we are doing here. We are having this debate now and then the option is for both Houses to opt in. That is the constitutional requirement and we are absolutely adhering to that.

I thank the Minister. I will start the second round of questions. A couple of members have indicated that they wish to get in for a second round. We will be brief in the second round; it is a three-minute slot, not a six-minute slot. I am going to try to move it along quickly, so the maximum number of members can get in.

I wish to make a statement first. This is the migration and asylum pact, not the asylum pact. I wish to make that point clear, and it will become clear as to why now. We talk about sovereignty, which is an issue that has come up in the approximately 50 emails I received in recent weeks on this issue from people demanding a referendum. I agree with what was said; I do not agree that a referendum is required. The question of sovereignty is a bit of a red herring, primarily because the people voted for this, as has been outlined. Even in terms of the basis of it, we had sovereignty over people entering the State, arguably around the time of the foundation of the Republic. For the guts of 70 years, we had that element of control. However, when we signed up to the Maastricht treaty, we enshrined the freedom of movement into our sovereign responsibilities as a State, and further in 2009 with the Lisbon treaty we signed up to the potential to what we are now agreeing to. The statement was made that this is what the people signed up to and the point Deputy Harkin made, with which I fundamentally disagree, was not necessarily dismissed or argued. I do not believe this is a sovereign matter at all. The Irish people made their position very clear on this matter, albeit they had to make it twice, but they still made the decision ultimately in 2009. Therefore, the question of sovereignty does not arise. We have not had, for instance, trade sovereignty for quite a number of years. Nobody is decrying that. This matter needs to be looked at for what it is, not for what other people are interpreting it to be.

It troubles me that there are websites or mailing lists ending up in our inboxes. As members of the committee, we have all seen them in recent days when it was brought to the attention of the public that this matter would come before this committee. I wanted to offer that view and to hear what the Minister has to say on my remarks.

I hope that I was clear at the outset when this matter was raised that this is not a sovereign matter. This is not about us losing our sovereignty, but about us choosing and deciding to pass legislation which would very much align us with what our other European colleagues are doing for the benefit of this country. The people of this country voted for the Lisbon treaty, very much aware of what the options are for this country when it comes to migration measures. We have the option to opt in. The opt-ins must be approved by democratically elected members of both Houses. It cannot be any clearer. There is no issue of it impacting our sovereignty. We have voted for and choose to opt in to these measures. As I said at the outset, there is nothing in any of these measures that should not, cannot, and will not benefit Ireland overall.

There are a few things arising out of that.

I will briefly respond to what Deputy Farrell said, although I do not want to get into a debate with him. Our opt-ins under Article 29, or the options and discretions that Ireland is empowered to make by resolutions of both Houses, are fundamental to sovereignty. For instance, we can surrender such things as tax unanimity, corporation tax competence tomorrow-----

That was not my point.

One voice at a time.

I agree with Deputy Harkin that there is a distinction between sovereignty and the requirement for a referendum under Article 29 of the Constitution, but it does not mean it is any less a derogation of sovereignty when the State opts in and confers on other institutions the right to make decisions over a large area of what used to be national autonomy.

Some 80% of asylum applications now are being made by people who have travelled into Ireland from the UK. Is the Department aware whether they were lawfully in the UK with visas and so forth or were coming from non-visa required countries who then decide to come here and apply for EU asylum rights in Ireland? Is it the Minister's understanding that they can come to the UK legally and then come over here and at some point ask for asylum and that 80% of asylum applications, which are running at 15,000 to 20,000 per year, are in that category? Am I understanding that that is what she is telling us?

A variety of people apply. Some arrived in the UK legally, then sought asylum there and are now applying for asylum here. Others sought asylum in the EU, arrived in the UK and then came here. Others have a legal right to be in the UK and have applied for asylum. There is a variety of people applying for asylum.

Has the Department ever broken them down by category? For example, this person had been in Birmingham for five years and then decided to come to Ireland because he must go home otherwise.

We have a variety. I do not have the figures in front of me.

People like students.

Yes, there is a mixture. That is why it is so important that we have appropriate procedures in place with the UK. We have close engagement and procedures with the UK. I mentioned the issue that arose recently about returns, which will be rectified as quickly as possible. It is the case that people also arrive in Ireland seeking to go to the UK. People arrive here illegally, but there are also people here legally who move to the UK to seek asylum.

I appreciate that, but if 80% of the 15,000 to 20,000 who apply for asylum per annum in Ireland are coming from the UK, do we send 80% of them back to the UK and say to the UK, "You handle these people"? Is that the situation?

That has only been the case in recent months.

Do we do that? Do we say that 80% of the 15,000 or 20,000 go back to the UK and we have nothing further to do with them?

The high number is only recent and we have a recent High Court case, which means we cannot return them. That has been very clear.

I am starting to realise that is theoretically the case but I am trying to understand the practice. Between 15,000 and 20,000 people come here annually looking for asylum. If what the Minister said is correct, and I fully accept that 80% of them come via the UK, do we send back 80% of 15,000 to 20,000 people to the UK to have their asylum applications dealt with or do they just melt into the system here and run off to the High Court and stay in State provided accommodation?

I have to answer because the Senator said theoretically and in practice. In practice, that figure is only in recent months. It was not the case last year that 13,000 or 80% came from the UK. That figure has only escalated in recent months. That is the case now and if we apply the figure from this year, due to a recent court ruling, returns to the UK have been paused. That High Court ruling will be addressed. I will have a miscellaneous provisions Bill in the coming weeks that will address it, which will mean that we will be able to return people. We have a mechanism in place to return people to the UK where they have applied for asylum. However, it is not the case that 80% would be going back to the UK because many have come from the EU as well. They started in the EU and through the screening procedure that will be in place under the migration and asylum pact, we will be able to identify more quickly and in a better way that people have applied in an EU country, gone to the UK and then come here. It is also the case that while at the moment we cannot return people to the UK, we can return them to their countries of origin. It is not the case that we cannot return anyone anywhere.

I can see that. Can I just finish one point?

I will not delay the proceedings. I just want to understand one thing. Between the indirect UK-EU people and UK people simply with no EU transit, the Minister said 80% of our asylum applications are constituted by people who have come to Ireland from the UK at the moment.

Yes, in recent months.

I have one question about that figure. Does the Minister have figures for where they originally come from? Of the 80%, did 60% start in the EU, did 10% come to the UK and are 5% students?

I do not have those figures broken down in front of me, but that is information we are gathering. I do not have that information to hand.

Perhaps the Minister could send it on to the committee. That would be important.

It does not change the fact that we need to be able process the applications quickly, make sure we can return people and have a solidarity mechanism. Irrespective of whether they are coming across the Border or through the airports, we still need to be able to access those solidarity or crisis regulations. If we do not sign up to them, we will not be able to apply them, irrespective of where people have come from. They look at our overall figures. They do not break it down by where people have come from immediately. They are not broken down in that way.

We should have figures for how they are broken down. That is important

Will the Minister provide that to the committee, if she can, with the other materials that have been requested today?

Insofar as I can, yes.

Insofar as you can.

Can I ask a question?

Yes, but not until all the members have asked a question.

Is Deputy Pringle satisfied?

Yes, I have finished.

Does Senator Gallagher wish to contribute?

We are under time pressure and I want to get everyone in. We normally take three minutes at the end for members and I will give two minutes to each of our guests. That means that all four of the guests will be able to contribute. I do not want to cut anyone off. Deputy McNamara is first.

The Minister pointed out that it is an offence for the vast majority of people to present at Dublin Airport or any frontier of the State without a passport. In 2023, 3,285 people did so and there were no prosecutions; the previous year there were 4,200 people and no prosecutions. I asked in a parliamentary question why that was the case and the Minister stated that prosecutions are entirely independent; they are a matter for the An Garda Síochána and the DPP. I then raised the matter in the Dáil with the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, who happened to be there on the day. He was a bit taken aback by the question, etc. Then, lo and behold, prosecutions started. Now we are told that there are loads of prosecutions. "Hell for leather" was the quote in The Irish Times, so it must be true, about the prosecutions being taken. What changed?

The law is the same. The same people who are doing the same thing are suddenly being prosecuted because it is politically embarrassing for the Government. How does that happen in a country where prosecutions are taken completely independently of the political system? If the Government can turn on prosecutions, can it also turn them off? Who decided not to prosecute this offence? Is not the real problem that Ireland is being criticised by the Council of Europe Committee for the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment for having no immigration detention facilities? It correctly states that it is wholly inappropriate for people who have committed immigration violations to be housed with general remand prisoners. It is not a great introduction to the State, let us face it, and equally it is wholly inappropriate. We have no immigration centres; sorry we have. There was a lot of fanfare when one was built last year, but it houses 20 people or some such number.

Will the Deputy leave time for the Minister to answer?

If the 4,000 people were to be prosecuted, we literally have nowhere to put them.

All I can state clearly is that decisions taken to prosecute are decisions taken by An Garda Síochána and the DPP. The Garda National Immigration Bureau, GNIB, is working collectively with the system to make sure that where people are potentially abusing the system or where there are laws that are abused that, at its discretion, it makes those decisions. It is the case that now that we have had a number-----

I want to get everyone in so-----

Did the Minister confer with the Commissioner about these prosecutions?

You are eating into your colleagues' time, Deputy.

How is it decided? Some people are being made an example of, because there are not thousands of people being prosecuted. How is it decided which poor divils are to be made an example of-----

-----and which ones are just waved through?

The Deputy can come in another time or raise a Topical Issue. I have to manage the time at the committee.

I appreciate that.

It is a matter for the An Garda to decide what prosecutions.

I want to come back to the issue of sovereignty and constitutionality. As I said, I believe what the Minister is doing is constitutional - we voted for it - but I disagree with the point made that we are not ceding a certain amount of sovereignty. Going back to those treaties, specifically the Lisbon treaty, the option was there to opt in, but the Minister may remember also that we have an option on corporation tax and on setting our tax rates. We could give that up tomorrow. We have the option to do that. If we did that, we would be ceding sovereignty over that particular piece of decision-making. If we do the same here, we will pool our decision-making, our sovereignty. It is not whether that is a good or a bad thing. I am not making that argument; it is for somebody else to make. I did not read this on any blog or anywhere else. I canvassed for the Lisbon treaty twice. I sat down and went through it very thoroughly so I have some idea of what was at stake. In my head at least, there is a definite issue here about pooling our sovereignty, which, in reality, means ceding a certain amount. Again, may I have the Minister's view on that? It is fundamentally different from what Deputy Alan Farrell said. He spoke about trade, but when we signed up to the EU treaties in the first place, trade was part of the EU competence. That was what we signed up for. At that point, we pooled our sovereignty. We are now pooling our sovereignty in another area.

My firm view is that the question of ceding sovereignty to the EU by opting in to the measures does not arise. To quote somebody who campaigned for the Lisbon treaty at the time:

The Lisbon Treaty neither creates a new state nor dissolves any existing state. It creates no new or competing source of sovereignty and it extinguishes no existing source of Member State sovereignty.

I agree with that.

In fairness, Deputy Harkin campaigned in favour of the Lisbon treaty in both referendums. She has just told us. I remember her being on the radio-----

I also campaigned in both Nice treaty referendums.

Yes, and I remember you being very striking on the radio in the debate in favour of them. I acknowledge that.

Last but by no means least, Senator Keogan, you have to get your two minutes as well.

I thank the Minister for her comprehensive answers. As regards the Nigerian legislation she is bringing before the House this week, or was it today? I am not sure whether it has gone through or not.

Does this relate to the pact, which is the topic under discussion?

If we were members of that pact today, we would have to run this through the EU solidarity co-ordinator before we could do anything on it, so there is a restriction on our foreign policy when it comes to that. We would have to run this through this EU solidarity co-ordinator. Is that a fact or not?

No, it is not. I will explain. Today, what I brought to Cabinet-----

I am just saying that if we were members of this pact at this moment in time-----

No, it does not impact it. What I brought to Cabinet today was a memo for information-----

I am well aware of what the Minister brought to Cabinet today.

I do not think the Senator is because-----

I am not but, for the transcript, it would be helpful to get the full answer, so let the Minister answer, Senator.

I do not think the Senator is aware of what I brought to Cabinet because she said it was legislation about Nigeria. What I have brought today is a memo for information to outline that we are designating the country from where we have the most applications coming into the accelerated procedure. We are not designating it as safe; we are saying that it is the country with the most applications. That will be reviewed quarterly, looking at the previous three months. That will not be impacted by the pact. We can still make those decisions. That is just about quicker processing and applying-----

If we were part of the pact today, would the Minister have that decision or would it be in the hands of the EU solidarity co-ordinator? That is the question.

We would make that decision ourselves. That does not impact it at all.

I believe we would not.

I am telling the Senator that we would.

There are 77 people per day at the moment seeking asylum in this country. We will hit 23,000 this year. As regards the Rwanda Bill yesterday, I want to know what measures will be put in place to stop what is happening in Northern Ireland. People are coming in through Belfast and down into the Republic. What is happening to stop that flow? Nothing is happening. The Department of Justice is not working. The Department of immigration is not working. That is why we have the chaos we have on our streets today, with all those people out there in tents, and I do not believe it will get any better. I do not believe that this pact will provide the panacea for immigration measures in this country. We are way out of our depth and we need to get a hold of this ourselves. If the Minister is going to rely on the EU migration pact to do this for us, there will just be more chaos.

Thank you, Senator, for those views.

May I respond briefly? It is really important that we talk about facts.

Yes. I was coming back to you, Minister, to do that. I ask everyone to take their time. Let us manage the proceedings correctly. Thank you, Senator, for those views. I now ask the Minister to make a final response, and then we will conclude today's discussion. Minister, over to you.

It is really important we deal with facts. The Senator asked whether this would be impacted by our joining the pact. It is absolutely the case that it would not be impacted. People can choose to believe that or not, but I have to state the facts here. The facts are very clear that that would not be the case, in the same way as the facts are clear that the 5 million people the Senator referred to earlier include people who came to the EU to work, live or study as well as those seeking international protection. That figure is not in any way representative of the numbers that would have to be reallocated. We have to deal with facts here.

The UK left the EU and decided not to join in to much of what we are discussing now. Not only have the UK's international protection figures increased, but it is now looking to have similar agreements with EU member states replicating what we are now doing within the EU. Therefore, the idea that we go it alone and that a country the size of ours can deal with one of the biggest challenges of our time on our own, without the support of the EU and without joining forces with our European colleagues, is fanciful and has already been shown with our colleagues across the water not to work. The reason we are proposing to opt in is that we are committed members of the European Union and we are already members of the European asylum system. What we are proposing is to update that system to make sure that it works in the most effective way possible and, above all, that we have a migration and asylum system that is firm but fair. It must be fair to those who genuinely need our protection and must get it as quickly as possible, and all of these measures ensure that, but firm to those who genuinely do not need our help. Again, these measures ensure that that can be applied.

I thank colleagues for their support, engagement and questions.

Thank you, Minister and members.

The committee will adjourn until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 30 April, when we will meet the chairperson designate of the Legal Aid Board. We will follow that at 4 p.m. with a continuation of our consideration of the asylum and migration pact, which we have heard about today.

The joint committee adjourned at 7.08 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 30 April 2024.
Top
Share