JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, DEFENCE AND EQUALITY debate -
Thursday, 1 Dec 2011

Community Policing: Discussion with An Garda Síochána.

Chairman

The purpose of the meeting is to have a discussion with the Garda Commissioner on the subject of the appropriate and optimum structure for community policing.

On behalf of the committee I welcome the Mr. Martin Callinan, Garda Commissioner, Mr. Nacie Rice, Deputy Garda Commissioner, Mr. John Twomey, assistant Garda Commissioner, Ms Anne Marie McMahon, chief superintendent, and Ms Sinéad McSweeney, director of communications. I thank the delegation for its attendance and giving of its valuable time to assist the committee in its work.

The format for today's meeting is that the Garda Commissioner will make some opening remarks and this will be followed by a question and answer session. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Before we begin I advise witnesses of the position in regard to privilege. I ask witnesses to note that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to the committee. However, if witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members should be aware that under the salient rulings of the Chair they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I invite the Garda Commissioner to make his presentation.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thank the Chairman and the committee for the opportunity to attend this meeting. The Chairman has already introduced the team. On the last occasion I attended a meeting of this committee, albeit it did not have the same membership, it was the day after the launch of the national community policing model, so it is appropriate that I have the opportunity this morning to give the committee an outline of the roll out of the model and where we have progressed with the ethos of community policing since then.

In launching the new national model of community policing in 2009 the idea was to renew and reinvigorate the well established tradition within An Garda Síochána of forging and maintaining strong relationships with the communities we serve. Community policing was not new then; it had long been the ethos of service delivery within An Garda Síochána. In fact, community policing is not just a part of our job, it is how we do our job. Whether a garda is walking a beat, enforcing road safety legislation, investigating drug dealing and serious criminal activity or advising people or businesses on crime prevention, he or she has the same core objective: to build and maintain safe and secure communities for everybody. Everything we do is focused on meeting the needs of the community, responding to its concerns and working with it to solve its problems.

Since its foundation in 1922, An Garda Síochána has deployed, on an incremental basis, community policing techniques in various forms. However, the organisation's current community policing structure is heavily influenced by a number of specific programmes. In 1982, for example, Thomastown and Claremorris Garda districts were selected for the purpose of establishing a new form of rural community policing. Later, in 1987, neighbourhood policing was established in Dublin, specifically in Tallaght and Finglas. Following the initial success of the Thomastown and Claremorris programmes, in 1991 rural community policing was extended to a further 12 rural Garda districts. Again, in 1998, rural community policing was extended to a further 16 rural Garda districts. In 1998, use of the term "community policing"was introduced to describe what is, in essence, neighbourhood policing.

The document we have given to the committee contains, on page 2, a figure to show how the model looks. It relies on a collective understanding by all the parties - An Garda Síochána, voluntary and statutory agencies and our communities. By working together in partnership, a safe and secure community can be realised. Furthermore, there must be a general understanding that challenges may arise in that relationship and that there must be a commitment at the outset to overcome such challenges.

Community policing is not a specialist role. It is a style of policing and an ethos which has been adopted, integrated and mainstreamed throughout the Garda service. In the model we refer to the vision, mission and values. That is replicating our corporate strategy to a certain extent in this policing discipline. Our vision is a community focused policing service proactively contributing to a safer and secure society. We see our mission as delivering excellence in the community, policing through effective partnerships, problem solving and law enforcement itself. The various values that are underpinned in the model replicate closely our core values of honesty, accountability, respect and professionalism.

On page 3 we articulate the national model of community policing and the number of changes that are included in the specific adoption of the community policing definition, the vision and mission I just mentioned and, significantly, the ten pillars we have identified in the model. It will be no great surprise that we talk again about partnerships, problem solving, crime prevention and reduction, accountability, accessibility, collaborative engagement, visibility, improved response, enforcement and empowerment. They are all integral parts of our national model.

With regard to page 4 of the document, I will refer briefly to a number of inter-dependencies in terms of the support structures that have been identified and that are pivotal to the success of the implementation of the model. The figure at the bottom of the page represents the various support structures I have mentioned. Key to all of this is the designation of a Deputy Garda Commissioner at executive level in An Garda Síochána. That is Deputy Garda Commissioner, Mr. Nacie Rice, who accompanies me today. He is in charge of strategy and change management. He is now designated as the community policing champion. That is an indication of the level of seriousness with which we view this area.

The figure also refers to the national community policing office at the Garda community relations section. It has been established for the development and evaluation of the model and cognate policies that form and flow from that. Each district officer or superintendent takes ownership of community policing within his or her area of responsibility. A community policing team has been established in every Garda district and that team is led by a sergeant. Community policing personnel are appointed in each community policing area.

To assist the operational implementation of the model in rural and urban districts, four deployment model or district category templates have been developed to provide orientation and assistance to the people charged with the responsibility of conducting community policing. Category A is a busy city centre or urban district, such as Store Street or Pearse Street; category B is a suburban district, such as Tallaght or Rathfarnham; category C is a rural district, such as Thomastown or Buncrana; category D is a large provincial town encompassing a rural hinterland. These are models we have provided, case studies as it were, to orient our senior managers in terms of what they might be expected to do in providing a structured community policing model in their respective areas. The table on that page lists the number of stations and the various categories of community policing to which they have signed up.

This is an overview of our thinking, strategy and policy in this area. The more practical and tangible impacts of community policing are to be found in the level of interface that occurs on a daily basis between members of An Garda Síochána and the various communities, such as liaison with residents' associations, local policing fora, businesses, juvenile liaison officers and liaison with youth groups. We have 113 trained juvenile liaison officers and we have 100 restorative justice initiatives. We have 330 personnel trained as ethnic liaison officers. We have 1,342 community alert schemes and 2,300 neighbourhood watch schemes. We are involved in schools programmes and have family liaison officers. The list is endless.

I stress the strong commitment of An Garda Síochána to community policing. Obviously, as a public sector organisation, we are not immune to the economic realities that prevail at present. An Garda Síochána, like every other public agency, is required to provide efficiencies and savings in the work it does. There is a challenge in maintaining public expectations and explaining that the policing service may not always be provided in the same manner in which it was in the past but that it is no less effective and our commitment to the community has not diminished in any way. We see community policing as an integral part of maintaining law and order and keeping communities safe, while being cognisant of the fear of crime and the well-being of those within our communities.

Chairman

We will now have a question and answer session. Members should ask focused questions rather than make statements to allow us get as much information as possible. I will call Deputy Calleary, Deputy Creed and Senator Bacik in that order.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I welcome the Commissioner and his team to the committee. We look forward to working with them during the lifetime of this committee. It is fitting that we would recognise the recent death of Garda Ciarán Jones and extend our sympathies to the Commissioner and to Garda Jones's family and colleagues. If ever there was an example of community policing he is it, particularly as he was off duty when he was killed serving his own community. He is typical of many members of the force throughout the country.

The Commissioner has been particularly associated with this new model in both his previous and new roles. I compliment him on that, and I am aware it is working very well on the ground. In my county the members are being subject to huge pressure regarding various issues in recent years and all of them have handled those very well.

First, on community policing and how the members do their job, the Commissioner spoke rather vaguely at the end of his contribution about the challenges and the economic efficiencies he is facing. Can he give an indication of how he is dealing with those? For instance, we have been trying to get information from the Minister on rural Garda stations but he tells us he is waiting on a report from the Commissioner on the future of a large number of rural Garda stations. Many communities throughout the country that are central to the Commissioner's model are awaiting word on that. When does he hope to have that information?

Second, regarding specific investigations that might be under way across the country, but particularly in Dublin, into gangland crime or-----

Chairman

To get a flow we should get an answer to the first question and then come back to the Deputy's other question.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thank the Deputy for his kind expression of sympathy on the loss of Garda Ciarán Jones, and I know he was present at Garda Jones's funeral. He is a huge loss to the community, and if one were to look for a role model or a text book example of what a community policeman should look like, one need look no further than Ciarán Jones. That was evident from the public outpouring of emotion and compliments expressed by his community. He is a big loss to An Garda Síochána and to the public. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam.

On the Deputy's specific question about station closures, as people will be aware we are required to examine efficiencies and cost effectiveness given the financial circumstances in which the country finds itself. We are no different from any other public service organisation in that regard. As part of examining efficiencies and cost saving within An Garda Síochána, we looked at the issue of station closures, opening hours, escorting of prisoners, the way we supply the chain, so to speak, in respect of the Courts Service, training, protection and a myriad of other issues. The issue of station closures and opening times, etc., is very much part of that.

My report with recommendations has gone to the Minister. That is being considered and we await a final decision from Government on those closures. I have had to make recommendations. It would be inappropriate for me to indicate how many but I can tell the committee it is nothing in the order of the numbers publicised in the media. Figures of over 200 were mentioned. It will not be anything of that order but I cannot go beyond that for obvious reasons.

In terms of how we view community policing into the future, it will always remain the ethos of our being because that is what we do. We are an unarmed police force. We govern with the authority of the public and we very much value our interactions with communities, particularly the advent of joint policing committees where all of the responsible stakeholders in the community - politicians, business people, academics and the gardaí - get together and pit their wits against what would be local and national problems and try to solve them. It provides the mechanism of explaining to members of the public whom we serve how much we can do. That is important because the issue of perception over reality is something we grapple with from time to time and it is important that we are positive in terms of what we say we are doing and can do, working with the other stakeholders.

There are many demands placed on An Garda Síochána, as members are aware. We are involved in many policing disciplines but we cannot escape the reality that we are reducing in numbers and that the financial constraints now imposed on us are a challenge. However, we are working through those in terms of focusing more on how we do our business, which is very important.

In more recent times we have the advantage also of the analyst service, which is helping us to apply reason, logic and more focus in terms of what we do. We have had to prioritise in certain areas, and we will continue to do that, but we have not yet reached - please God we never will reach - the stage where the efficiencies we provide to the local communities will be diminished. That is our aim.

Deputy Dara Calleary

There was some publicity given last week about new rosters in the Dublin metropolitan area as part of the Croke Park agreement.

Mr. Martin Callinan

Yes.

Deputy Dara Calleary

How will they impact on this model or will they have any impact on the community policing model?

Mr. Martin Callinan

No. We are working very hard, in partnership with the staff associations and Mr. Fitzpatrick in the context of the Croke Park agreement. The idea is to provide as many members of An Garda Síochána as possible on the ground when they are needed. That is a work in progress, and it is working quite well. A number of issues remain to be resolved. We see it as complementing rather than disenfranchising the way we do our business.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I do not see the joint policing committees in the community policing model. I agree they are an effective structure but are they integral to the model or-----

Mr. Martin Callinan

The national community policing model supports and facilitates a raft of strategies and initiatives and joint policing committees are part of that but there are many other areas. We talk about our diversity strategy and our Garda diversity consultation day, for instance. The European Police College, CEPOL, gave us an award for our diversity strategy. That is part of community policing as we would see it.

We also have our older people strategy - Community Alert and Neighbourhood Watch - and the Garda schools programme where safety on advice is provided to youngsters. The Garda community safety campaign is held in April and September of every year where we give advice on crime prevention and try to provide some form of orientation as to the way we are delivering our service, something similar to what we are doing here now. I mentioned Campus Watch and Business Watch. We have a victims of crime consultation day, Garda youth diversion projects, case management of youth diversion projects and joint policing committees. There is a myriad of policing disciplines that are under-pinned within the model.

Deputy Michael Creed

I, too, would like to be associated with the tribute to the late Garda Jones. We paid tribute to him previously in committee and I would like to convey that directly to the Commissioner. I welcome him and thank him for accepting the committee's invitation. When I suggested that we invite the Commissioner in here, community policing from rural Garda stations was the issue that most exercised our minds. The Commissioner may have seen in the past week a number of people from my own neck of the woods in west Cork expressing their concerns at the gates of Leinster House. That is where my opening remarks are coming from. I appreciate the limitations of what he can say here, given the ongoing dialogue between him and the Minister. However, a few relevant points have been made to me by rural community groups about rural isolation and so on.

I accept the financial constraints under which the Garda Síochána has to operate. It is a situation of declining financial and human resources, given the number of retirements from the force, and this will continue up to 2014 when Garda numbers are reduced to 13,000 and recruitment can begin again. The human resources issue is as big a challenge as the financial resources issue.

There is a huge emotional attachment to rural barracks, perhaps more than they can practically deliver. However, the cost of maintaining them open, where there is not a capital value that must be repaid on an annual basis and where they have been in existence for many years, is really the cost of a light bulb, a telephone line and some heating. The reassurance that this minimal cost provides to local communities and the deterrent it provides to roving criminal gangs is very significant. I have a concern that there might be over-reliance on the Pulse system to quantify the level of activity in any one of those stations. Effective community policing is often a case when a garda is not catching some local guy for having a bald tyre or a faulty indicator, but when he is just out there engaging with communities, so that these things are prevented. It is very difficult to quantify from data analysis the preventative element of these rural Garda barracks. I suggest that it is very significant and I ask the Commissioner to bear that in mind.

I will comment on the Garda Síochána Inspectorate report for 2010. If we accept that the critical resource is the garda, a number of recommendations were made in that report for civilianisation. Areas examined included passport processing, firearms licence processing and so on. The collection of fees for firearms licences has since been handed over to An Post. Can the Commissioner see other opportunities for greater civilianisation, so that the most valuable resource in community policing - the garda - can be freed up from desk duties and have a higher visibility in communities?

Chairman

We will get an answer for that before I go back to the Deputy.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thank Deputy Creed for his remarks about Garda Jones. I agree with much of what the Deputy has said. We in An Garda Síochána are particularly sensitive to rural community needs. I spoke earlier about perception over reality in the context of what it means to a rural community to have a Garda station closed. The community has always been at the centre of our universe and how we manage those relationships. We can certainly identify with much of what the Deputy has raised.

We are trying to address efficiencies here, which are part of the equation. As a cost saving exercise, if we had not got the element of efficiency and how we deliver our policing service in those communities, it is something that would be very low down on the list of priorities for what we are required to do, having reviewed the way we do our business.

The Deputy mentioned the presence on the street of a Garda and we view that as really important for crime prevention. It is impossible to quantify what a garda's presence on the street brings to the community. It provides reassurance. It provides a feel safe factor. Much more than that, we know anecdotally and empirically over the years that the presence of a garda in a particular area prevents crime. Nowadays travelling criminals have become far more sophisticated. Modes of transport and communication are much more advanced and there is a requirement on us to try to match the prevailing circumstances and the trends and techniques employed by criminals and those whotraverse the criminal law. We are trying to do this by matching those efficiencies and hopefully superseding them, if I may be as blunt as the Opposition. That is what we are trying to achieve in the context of station closures and reduced opening hours.

Chairman

A question was also asked about civilianisation.

Mr. Martin Callinan

Civilianisation is a work in progress. We are working in several areas in partnership with the associations. There is always room for improvement. We have outsourced quite a number of areas of employment, such as the Garda Information Service Centre in Castlebar, which records crimes. The vetting unit in Thurles is another significant area. We have built in a large civilian cadre for the process of dealing with fines on the spot. There is much discussion going on in other areas of the service we provide to free up front-line policemen.

In all of these areas, there is a requirement to have some input from sworn officers. This is understandable, because we are dealing with the business of policing and it would be unfair to expect that people can come in off the street and join our organisation, given the level of complexity involved. They cannot quickly become efficient in all of the nuances needed to meet the requirements of providing a support service for us.

Computerisation is another area in which we see significant room for improvement and we are working towards freeing up much of the sworn personnel in many areas. That is a work in progress.

Deputy Michael Creed

I welcome what the Commissioner has said and I welcome the fact that so much has been achieved and so much is ongoing. The policeman in the community is the most valuable resource that the Garda Síochána has at its disposal.

The Commissioner teed up my next question with his reference to travelling criminals. One of the recommendations in the Garda Inspectorate report was for more one officer mobile units in urban areas, but if my urban colleagues forgive me, I am more concerned about the issue of Garda transport in rural areas. I find it very difficult to accept the rationale behind the policy of sending back Garda vehicles when they have travelled 300,000 km. To put it bluntly, the Commissioner is being held over a barrel by the motor industry. I understand that the industry will not stand over the vehicle after 300,000 km. The Commissioner and his members know that many cars which pass the NCT - there is a higher duty of care for public service vehicles and they must go through a more rigorous testing regime - have travelled more than 300,000 km. Public service vehicles in the taxi industry are regulated by age rather than the number of kilometres travelled, which strikes me as a more bizarre approach. However, the truth is that a car might have travelled only 100,000 km and is still clapped out and no good for anything, while another car might be well kept and have travelled 500,000 km. Fortunately, the way cars are built today means they are built to last a good deal longer and they are more reliable and have a good service record. We should consider this in rural communities especially. Cars that may have had heavy duty obligations in busier centres could be stepped down the line to create visibility and mobility in rural communities for the Garda. I appreciate that it may not be entirely in the court of the witnesses to resolve this; it may be a ministerial issue but I do not accept the position at present. The obligation to have the optimum, new cars and the best of everything does not take account of where we are financially. I believe many Garda members would prefer to have a car with 320,000 km, 350,000 km or 400,000 km on the clock rather than have no car at all. We read about the financial difficulty of replacing vehicles. This is a nettle which we must grasp.

There has been a good deal of adverse comment in recent times about the plethora of Garda allowances. I have no intention of trespassing on that issue because it is not what we are about this morning other than to come back to the issue of community policing and rural areas. I am unsure whether other committee members will share my personal observations but I believe the most effective community policing model involves a garda being resident in the community that he or she serves. I was fortunate enough to be raised on the Codrum Road in Macroom where approximately 14 or 15 gardaí lived between my house and the town. It was something of an unusual circumstance but that was the case. This could not or would not apply in many other areas and it has changed a good deal now but it was a great reassurance because we knew these local members of the Garda.

The reality now is that with the best intentions in the world the experience in most rural communities has been that the garda comes in and does his or her utmost or damnedest to serve that community but he or she is gone at the end of the shift. Such a garda is likely to have travelled a significant distance because people are more mobile. Some of the allowances are significantly dated now. I appreciate that these are a significant part of members' income and I do not suggest in any sense that members' incomes should be slashed in any way, but there is a need to mainstream the allowances into income. In terms of updating these allowances I believe it would be of benefit to community policing if a new allowance were introduced to provide an incentive for members of the Garda to live in the community they serve. This should be voluntary and were it to be introduced, members would have to be given some longevity in terms of their security of tenure in a particular area. It is worth reconsidering in the context of community policing in the long term.

Chairman

I call on the Commissioner to address the two issues of mileage on cars and the policy of members living in communities.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I wish to respond briefly to the transport issue raised by Deputy Creed. There are certain requirements on us related to the manufacturers' guarantees. They have informed us that they cannot guarantee vehicles driven beyond 300,000 km. Naturally, there is a requirement on us as responsible employers to consider the health and safety of our members. Having said that we take the point, well articulated by Deputy Creed. The Deputy Commissioner, Mr. Rice, is examining the area in respect of the allocation and redeployment of cars already at our disposal. However, I am not keen for An Garda Síochána to reach a position whereby the majority of the fleet is above a certain age. That would not be conducive to good or efficient policing given the world we are living in but I take the Deputy Creed's point and the matter is a work in progress.

Deputy Creed raised the issue of Garda members residing in the local communities. It is a simple fact of life that over time and especially in the past five to seven years, members have been travelling greater distances to their place of employment. Many factors have influenced this. In the Dublin region at one point property was less expensive the further away it was and that was a consideration. There are many and various reasons people are travelling greater distances but we have been trying to ensure, especially in recent times, that the people working in particular areas live, if not in the community, then as close as possible to it.

With regard to community policing, it will always be the case that Garda members are involved in local communities at local level regardless of where they live. They will have certain responsibilities in those areas in respect of looking after the interests of the communities wherein they serve.

Senator Ivana Bacik

I welcome the Commissioner and his team as well. We all wish to be associated with the remarks about Garda Ciaran Jones and we express our sympathy to his family and colleagues. We are all pleased to hear the commitment to community policing from the top down within the Garda. As everyone is aware, there is great public support for community policing and for the concept of it and for its practice.

I wished to put the same question as Deputy Calleary in respect of the structure of joint policing committees and how they fit in formally. Will the delegation provide some clarity on the model outlined? I understood there was a link between the district community policing team and the joint policing committees although I may be wrong about that. Page 4 of the presentation referred to another issue with regard to that structure. Is the structure or model new since 2009 or has this model always been in place but simply formalised since then? I am not clear about what took place in 2009.

There have been critiques from the public with regard to community policing more generally. First, there has been a view that there is lack of buy-in from the top and a lack of recognition for the local community garda in terms of promotion. Has this changed with the new structures? Second, we have often heard - I imagine others have heard it as well - about a lack of consistency especially in urban areas. In certain cases a community garda is appointed. The people in the community begin to get to know the garda and then he or she is moved on. Is there any change in this policy as a result of the new structures?

Other colleagues have referred to Garda station closures. Do these affect the model since there must be fewer Garda stations per category area under the model, especially in rural areas? My final question follows from Deputy Creed's point about some of the challenges facing the Garda. This matter is likely to impact not only on community policing but more generally. One significant challenge in the health service will come after February 2012 when many higher, front-line staff with significant experience will retire. There has been considerable concern publicly about what will happen in the Garda in this regard. Will we see retirements of senior staff working on the front line, staff who will be difficult to replace? I am sorry if I have overloaded the delegation with too many questions and I thank the delegation again for the presentation.

Chairman

There are several questions for the Commissioner on the community garda and the lack of promotion, as perceived, the community garda staying in the area and the final question about promotion and the policy.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thank the Senator for her remarks on the late Garda Jones. The Senator is correct about joint policing committees. There have been interactions with various stakeholders and there are a plethora of community policing fora and other community fora, all of which are interlinked. Generally, if joint policing committees are functioning properly then the flow of information from community policing fora will be brought to the table. Essentially, this involves examining problems and ways and means of solving those problems within the community. There is a link in that sense. With regard to the national model and the related policy, we aim to renew and reinvigorate the ethos of community policing that has been in place for a considerable period and which, we believe, has always been in place. We try to provide a structure with the model to ordain a road map or template to be followed to assist district officers to provide the service.

Regarding station closures, we will try to continue to have in place, as we have always had, community police personnel in all areas. The fact that a station closes does not relieve people of their responsibilities in terms of a local garda or a garda having responsibility for a given area. Have I covered all the ground in my answer?

Senator Ivana Bacik

The February 2010 issue of retirements.

Mr. Martin Callinan

Of course it is a concern and we have seen a sizeable attrition rate. To the end of year, we are at approximately 490 personnel. We will see another 150 retirements in the new year, between January and February. These are considerable numbers but, none the less, we will still be just short of 400 from the figure ordained as to where we should be. I suppose we have been fortunate in more recent years that we have been the beneficiary of a rapidly growing body of men and women in An Garda Síochána. However, I do not underestimate for a moment the level of experience that is retiring from the force earlier than perhaps such personnel would have done. However, I am equally confident a cadre of men and women police officers will step up to the plate. My wish would be that all of the senior management team would be replaced as soon as is humanly possible although I realise that this might present its own challenges. If I, as Garda Commissioner, hope to effect the type of changes required of me over the next short to intermediate period, I will need all the help possible from the senior command to implement those changes.

Senator Ivana Bacik

The figure of 490 and 150 personnel relate to retiring personnel.

Mr. Martin Callinan

Yes, all ranks this year and to the end of the deadline in February next year.

Deputy Seán Kenny

I welcome the Garda Commissioner and his team and I join with the other members in paying tribute to the late Garda Dennison. I wish to ask questions on the joint policing committee. As public representatives, we sit on those committees and we interact regularly with An Garda Síochána based in our constituencies. My constituency joint policing committee is organised on local authority boundaries and it contains two committees, the Fingal joint policing committee and the Dublin City Council joint policing committee. They are quite useful. However, the Commissioner did not refer to them over much in his presentation. What are the benefits of the committees to community policing in particular and what has the experience been since they were set up?

The joint policing committee in the Fingal area recently held two public meetings, one in Portmarnock and one in Sutton, which were well received by the public. These meetings should be continued. The Dublin City Council area has not had a public meeting yet but they should follow the lead of the Fingal committee. A meeting is one way of getting people to interact with the local gardaí, particularly when there are problems with anti-social behaviour, which is quite a scourge in some areas. Our constituency also has safety fora which are more locally based. Newly emerging communities on the northern fringe contain a couple of thousand new residents and newly developing areas have particular problems. What has been the experience and the benefits of joint policing committees on a nation-wide basis?

I have a particular issue I wish to raise and this is the question of drug crime.

Chairman

I suggest we allow the Commissioner deal with the first question and then return to that question. We understand the operation of the joint policing committees is being kept under review. I ask the Commissioner to respond to Deputy Kenny's question in that regard.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thank Deputy Kenny for his very kind remarks about the late Garda Jones. The support and facility contained within the structure of the national community policing model speaks to joint policing committees. In terms of their usefulness, the model of community policing is partnership and this is contained in the vision and the mission. We talk about stakeholders and support and interfacing with the community and the range of stakeholders. We would value joint policing committees as an integral part of the success or failure of the provision of a policing service in all those areas.

At the outset there were, as one would expect, different expectations of what type of results would flow from joint policing committees. However, over time we have moved from the gardaí coming in and saying what they were doing. There is now a much more inclusive debate between local authority representatives, and representatives of the community, business and private interests. This has provided a fairly powerful coalition which has highlighted the type of problems facing the various communities and which also attempts to address those issues. This has been the benefit of joint policing committees. We are very pleased to be part of this coalition.

Deputy Seán Kenny

My other question relates to drug crime. There is anecdotal evidence of an upsurge in that area. A safety forum was held recently in my constituency. This forum meets quarterly and the Garda Síochána gives a quarterly report on crime statistics. One of the figures the gardaí gave at the last meeting was 250 drug searches and finds in the Coolock Garda district. This seems to be quite a high figure. Does this indicate a trend? Is drug crime back again as a problem? There was a feeling it had gone away or it had reduced. Has the problem re-emerged?

Mr. Martin Callinan

Unfortunately, the drugs problem has been with us for many years and I am afraid we do not see any sense of it moving away. Our analyst service focuses on the types of drugs and the trends being noted. For a considerable period of time cocaine was the choice for recreation and otherwise within communities. However, in recent times - I must be careful because this case is before the courts - there has been a substantial seizure of heroin in the past fortnight. We had not seen this for a while so we see heroin beginning to come back on the scene. In more recent times, of course, the focus has been on grow houses and the cultivation of cannabis and cannabis plants. We have seen that activity increase exponentially in more recent times and particularly so since the closure of a number of the head shops. It is no secret that some of the products sold in head shops have the capacity and capability to be used to grow cannabis. We are working with our colleagues in the Department of Justice and Equality in trying to eradicate this type of activity. The use of cannabis is back on the scene. We have seen some anecdotal and incremental evidence of heroin coming back but not to the same level as before. It is on the increase in certain areas.

There are local Garda drugs squads in all the Garda districts, particularly in the large urban centres. These squads supplement the district forces in coming to grips with the problem. There is a significant interface between the local units and the central national drugs bureau in Dublin Castle.

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

I thank the Garda Commissioner for attending the committee. I too wish to be associated with the remarks about the late Garda Jones.

I have three or four brief questions. The Garda Commissioner spoke about the joint policing committees and their effectiveness in the local communities. One example is the Cork city joint policing committee. When we had an upsurge in heroin use in Cork the joint policing committee provided a forum to allow all the agencies to come together and to implement the plan which, thankfully, successfully stemmed the tide of heroin into the city. As regards the local fora, there is a view in my own area that some work better than others and this is sometimes due to the personalities both on the Garda side and on the local community side and on how much they buy into it.

A review of joint policing committees is under way. What is the Commissioner's view on what additional powers the committees could be given? Their counterparts in the North, the district policing partnerships, have much more power than the joint policing committees which have more of an advisory function. What are the Commissioner's views on how their powers can be enhanced to make them more relevant to local communities?

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thank the Deputy for his kind remarks about the late Garda Jones. The Garda Síochána will obviously work within the legislation provided for us. The Deputy asked for a personal view. My view, as I indicated, is that this is a very powerful coalition. Regardless of the legislation, if people are working together for and with the community, there is no greater purpose than to have this type of forum. The legislation is probably well provided for.

The Deputy identified the actions that were taken to address the increased heroin problem he observed in Cork city. The benefit of joint policing committees is that such issues are brought to the table and people ask what can be done to address them. The Garda then does whatever it has to do in terms of enforcement, advice, educating youngsters and so forth, while the local council may be in a position to assist in terms of issues around local authority and public housing and so forth. This coalition provides an effective response to local issues.

I am not entirely clear how much giving additional legislative powers to joint policing committees would enhance their capability. The secret here is to provide a response to the local community, having identified the issue, and coming to terms with it. Monitoring one's progress in terms of how one is dealing with the particular issue is very important.

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

The Garda Commissioner referred to perception and reality. I do not mean to criticise the Garda but one of the most common complaints I receive as a local representative relates to response times. One often hears that gardaí are too slow to respond to a call and sometimes do not come out when called. Recently, when I tried to obtain figures on average response times for the Cork city district I was informed they were not available because they are recorded manually rather than electronically and average response times could not be tracked for this reason. If that is the case and we do not know the average response time, how do we judge whether response times are improving? What systems are in place to review response times if they are not being recorded electronically?

Chairman

The discussion is slipping a little from the community policing issue.

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

Garda response time is a community policing issue as it relates to perception.

Chairman

The Deputy is correct.

Mr. Martin Callinan

This is an issue that arises from time to time. Again, I bring it back to the centre of what we do in community policing. When issues such as this are raised locally it is a matter for local Garda units to respond. If, for instance, the Deputy has been receiving complaints from his constituents that the Garda is not as responsive as it should be, the joint policing committee is the appropriate forum to introduce the issue. It is also the forum at which the Deputy will get traction in terms of a response.

Unfortunately, we have varying degrees of technology for recording. In the Garda control room in Dublin, for instance, all calls are documented by time and we are able to indicate when and how we respond, etc. There are variations around the country and we are working towards finding the technology that would put these matters in perspective. However, the IT requirements for implementing the type of tracking response the Deputy alluded to would cost a hell of a lot of money, which we do not have at this time. My advice, therefore, is that the Deputy should indicate to Garda management those areas in which he sees the Garda is falling down in terms of providing a response and ensure he gets a proper response.

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

I will not ask for further detail on the closure of Garda stations as we discussed the figures. What criteria were used in arriving at the recommendations? I presume budgetary constraints were one criterion. Did the Department provide a figure to inform the Garda analysis of how many Garda stations would have to close? Did it state that X amount must be saved and ask the Commissioner to review the entire system of Garda closures? What other criteria were used in arriving at the Garda Commissioner's recommendations to the Minister on the number of Garda stations to close?

Mr. Martin Callinan

As I stated, this matter was part of a whole range of systems, processes and methodologies we are using in terms of efficiencies. It is not just about cost savings and if it was, it would be very low down the food chain. I have not been given a particular figure which I was expected to match. In terms of the criteria we used, we looked at a number of stations including those which have been effectively closed for many years. This group was, if one likes, the "no brainers" which is a term I do not like to use. In terms of making a recommendation to the Minister they were in that category.

The other matters we considered were the level of activity in each of the Garda stations, the methodologies employed by the local police, how we were managing our business and the types of requirements being placed up on us. We were also highly conscious of the sensitivities various Deputies have raised on the issue of station closures. This is a very emotive subject and we are alive to the sensitivities surrounding it. As Garda Commissioner, it is my responsibility to ensure the systems we put in place are as efficient as the service that has been provided to date. These were some of the issues we grappled with when making the recommendations.

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

Do the recommendations reduce the opening hours of Garda stations, including some of those which are currently open 24 hours per day?

Mr. Martin Callinan

It includes reducing some of the opening hours only.

Deputy Tom Hayes

The closure of rural Garda stations is a highly emotive issue. The Garda Commissioner must not underestimate the sense of dependence among many people living in rural areas, whether on the green man or the squad car coming in and out. On behalf of rural communities, I beg the Commissioner to do as much as he can to protect them.

On the drugs issue, I am frustrated to note the number of people who are able to point out houses where drugs are available are which have been bought with drug money. I am not satisfied with the progress being made in this regard. Is further legislation required in this area? Are fines too low? Drugs are scourge across the country.

Chairman

We will need to have a separate meeting focused on drugs. Today's meeting, however, is on community policing and I do not wish to stray from the issue. That was the agenda we presented to him before he came in today. I ask the Deputy to speak to the community policing model.

Deputy Tom Hayes

The drugs are in the communities. They are in small rural areas. They are highlighted to me across my constituency, including in the areas where it is proposed to close the stations. What will it take to deal with this issue?

Chairman

The issue of community policing and the wider drugs issue is something we will come back to in the new year and focus on more intensely, with the Commissioner's assistance. I ask the Commissioner to give a brief response to the issues Deputy Hayes raised.

Mr. Martin Callinan

As the Deputy rightly points out, drugs has been a particular problem and we do not get a sense that that problem is going away, as I said earlier. Where there is criminality there will always be illegal drug trafficking activity. The idea from our perspective, in terms of enforcement and education, is to try to join up those two aspects. Within the context of community policing we are in all the schools. We are available to visit colleges where we do Campus Watch and all of those initiatives. We serve on the national strategy committee with the Minister of State, Deputy Shortall. We are very much proactive in terms of what we are doing to try to bring an end to the scourge of drugs in the community that has visited so many families and been responsible for so much serious criminality of which we are very conscious. From our perspective we will do all that we can, both in terms of enforcement and education, which are the two pillars the national drugs squad concentrate on, working with the Minister in her drugs strategy.

The Deputy is right. Drugs are a scourge in communities. All of the local drugs task forces are fully subscribed and committed to doing what they can but I do not get any sense that matters will improve in the short to medium term. The Deputy can rest assured, however, that we will play our part in terms of doing what we can to eradicate the scourge of drugs in this country.

Chairman

I call Deputy Tuffy. We are on community policing and I ask her to put brief questions.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy

I thank the Commissioner for his presentation and everybody for attending. I am a TD in Dublin Mid West where the initiatives taken by the local Garda stations in recent years have been very positive. A number of them would come under the heading of community policing, including multicultural days such as those in the Lucan station and a similar event in the Clondalkin station. The community police have had local meetings with the community. They are very active in that regard. They attend residents' association meetings. Many of the members of the Garda are known to the community and there is a very positive relationship as a result of these initiatives.

We deal with legislation and one wonders what impact that has in areas. I was a Member of the Seanad when the then Minister brought forward legislation on anti-social behaviour orders. Will the Commissioner indicate how that legislation is working? Is it useful? Is it used much?

The other issue relates to community policing because it is about local stations. Is there a problem with the quality of the Garda cars? Are they deteriorating-----

Chairman

We had that question already.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy

-----which is an issue that has been raised with me locally?

Chairman

That has been covered.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I will make a brief comment on the anti-social behaviour orders, ASBOs, and the warnings. We find them very effective and, generally speaking, we have reasonably good success in terms of compliance. We do not have a huge number of orders. It depends on from which side of the fence one is looking at the problem but we tend to take the view that the warnings have provided sufficient cover to avoid the necessity of going to court to get a court order. It has been our experience in the past that when we get a court order the problem is being shifted from one area to another, therefore, we tend to favour the warnings as being the most effective.

Deputy Michael Creed

To return briefly to the issue of the Garda barracks, there is a connection in terms of the Garda barracks, the garda and the car. I realise the Chairman shot down Deputy Tuffy for raising that issue but when the number reaches 300,000, are those cars dismantled or sold into the private market? I would imagine that a motor company has the same duty of care to me as a motorist as it has to a member of the Garda, and I cannot accept that they are calling the shots on that issue.

On the other Garda barracks issue and the requirement to think outside the box, rural Garda barracks are very important in terms of community policing but they are a resource that could be used for other public service delivery which might help to share the cost of them if the cost is an issue. For example, the Teagasc service might want to meet farmers in the community to assist in form filling. They could also be used for education service or mental health service delivery. That type of cross-departmental approach to the shared costs of service delivery could be of benefit in terms of securing these facilities as a community asset.

Chairman

To follow on from that, what would it cost to keep a small, rural Garda station in operation? What is the saving to be made on that?

Mr. Martin Callinan

We have examined the issue of costing, and I mentioned already that if costing was the issue it would appear very far down on our list of things to do. What we are talking about is providing an effective policing service to the communities in which these stations are located. Depending on the station, it would cost between €2,500 and €4,000 to keep a station open and maintained. It is quite small money in terms of cost effectiveness.

Chairman

Representatives of a local community approached me recently and more or less offered to put up that kind of finance to keep the station in operation. Is the Commissioner saying there are policing reasons the stations are being closed, that cost is not the paramount reason and that there are operational and policing reasons? He mentioned that some of these stations, in effect, may be open. Would the Commissioner be open to engagement on coming up with a formula if the local community council, for instance, saw other uses for such a building?

Mr. Martin Callinan

The majority of these buildings are owned by the Office of Public Works and therefore we are sitting tenants, so to speak. I would have no particular view on the use of these buildings. It would be commendable that they would be used to service the public's needs in some way.

Chairman

To return to Deputy Creed's point about perception, and Deputy O'Brien may have mentioned it also, the fear of crime is an issue. One review I read recently indicated that 81% of people regarded crime as being serious even though they themselves may not have had any experience of crime. Has the Commissioner any comments to make on the fear of crime and the sensationalism around crime because it has a bearing if people believe their area will be swamped with criminality if their local Garda station closes?

Mr. Martin Callinan

Absolutely. I have already indicated that we are very much alive to the issue of closures and what that brings to local communities. The fear of crime is as potent as the commission of the crime itself, certainly among our senior citizens in both rural and urban areas. We are conscious of all of those aspects. We are trying to match efficiencies and even go beyond that to provide a greater, more efficient service to these communities. It is about efficiencies; it is not about costs.

Chairman

Can the Commissioner comment on the impact of the Garda Reserve initiative vis-à-vis community policing?

Mr. Martin Callinan

As Commissioner I view the Garda Reserve as being very important to us. It has provided an extra dimension in terms of how we deliver our service. There was much coverage about how our members perceived the reserve and how they treated members of the reserve. I view the Garda Reserve as a classic example of volunteerism and generosity from the individuals involved. They are people who are willing to step up to the plate. It is particularly comforting at this time that so many people are engaging with us. If we include those in training, we have close to 1,000 members of the reserve. That is fantastic and they have integrated very well into the Garda service and they provide support to the full-time gardaí who are in the service of the community. I am very much in favour of them.

Deputy Alan Farrell

I welcome the Commissioner and his team. The difficulty with coming in last is that the majority of what I wanted to ask has already been covered, but I will try to be as concise as possible.

I would first like to compliment the joint policing committee structures. I had experience with them as a local authority member in Fingal, as the Assistant Commissioner will attest. I know of the great work they do, especially for some of the local policing fora which are newer entities, and in tying in with community groups and so on.

The consistency of tenure of the community garda is always constant when we talk about resources in a community with local community groups. The vast majority of them cannot say enough positive things about their interaction with community gardaí, except for when they are interchangeable. I know that is being worked on and I have spoken about this many times, but I wanted to state it while the Commissioner is here.

The next issue I wanted to raise concerns ASBOs. I have no particular difficulty with ASBOs. However, they are a last resort and I also believe there are those in communities who believe they are useless. Will the Commissioner make any comment on that?

The last issue is in respect of the review being carried out on the closure of Garda barracks. Did the Commissioner state that no full-time stations would be closed, that only part-time stations would be closed and that only some full-time stations would be downgraded to part-time stations? I would like him to clarify that.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I will take the last question first. I have to be careful here because my report is with the Minister. A couple of stations that are currently open on a full-time basis will close.

In the context of ASBOs, I presume the Deputy is talking about court orders, as opposed to warnings.

Deputy Alan Farrell

Yes.

Mr. Martin Callinan

We find that court orders seem to move the problem from one area to another. If the Deputy is getting grief from his constituents about the usefulness of the orders, I can well understand that. That would be our experience as well. They would be quite small in number when compared with the ASBO warnings that we give out. I am getting positive feedback on the ground about these warnings.

I thank the Deputy for his remarks on joint policing committees. I have already commented on them. We are always grappling with the issue of those who are engaged on a full-time basis in the community policing structure. I was asked earlier on whether it was somehow the backwater of the force and whether those involved never get promoted. None of that is true and we will try to keep the team together as long as humanly possible.

Deputy Dara Calleary

Who makes the call on the Garda stations?

Mr. Martin Callinan

The Garda Síochána Act 2005 dictates that it is the Minister's call.

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

Somebody had better tell the Minister, because he says it's the Commissioner's call.

Deputy Dara Calleary

He uses the phrase that the Commissioner has "operational responsibility".

Mr. Martin Callinan

To be fair to the Minister, I am the one making the recommendations, so I suppose he is either going to take me seriously or he is not. He does not have to do so, of course.

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

We have already mentioned partnership as a key to community policing and confidence in the force is paramount to that. If I am stretching the bounds here-----

Chairman

Please do not.

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

I will try not to do so, but I am sure you will not be long telling me if I am. The recent annual report from the Garda Ombudsman's office threw up some interesting figures. One of them was related to searches of the person and road traffic incidents.

Chairman

I think you really are moving beyond----

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

I was just-----

Chairman

We are on community policing, so this is-----

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

Confidence in the force is a vital element to that and I wonder if the Commissioner has had a chance to look into those figures and see if there is any particular reason those two areas are making up the vast majority of complaints, and what steps are being taken to address it.

Chairman

I am not sure whether you wish to respond, Mr. Callinan.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I have no problem with that. We look at all of these reports because that is our business. It is clear that the overwhelming majority of the complaints made to the Ombudsman is in the area of discourtesy and the manner in which my members treat people with whom they deal on a daily basis. It is something that we at management level are working very hard to address.

It does not cost us any money to be mannerly and respectful. The whole ethos of community policing is about respect for human rights and professionalism. The values we hold - honesty, accountability, respect and professionalism - speak to the issue of how we do our business. We look at these figures and we do our very best to ensure that the people under my command are holding up their end of the bargain. Where there is conflict, we will always have difficulty, but we need to keep that margin as tight as possible.

Deputy Jonathan O’Brien

To be fair, the vast majority of people surveyed also said they had confidence in the force.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thank the Deputy for that.

Chairman

I have come across that figure, which states that 67% have huge confidence in the members of the Garda Síochána. We are very pleased with that.

Thank you Commissioner and your team for coming here today and giving your valuable time to assist us in the work we are doing. We also want to assist you in your work as best we can. We had a very interesting meeting yesterday evening on the possibility of moving to Central European Time, and you will be glad to know that some people told us it would lead to a reduction in crime, with more daylight in the evening. I know they are looking seriously at that in the UK, so it might happen. We are doing everything we can to help.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I am open to all reasonable offers, Chairman, I can assure you.

Chairman

Thank you again for coming here today and we wish you well.

The Minister has written to us about the vetting bureau Bill and has taken on board virtually all the recommendations that were made by the committee on the hearings, and he complimented the members on the work they did that day. The proposal to bring the heads of the Bill to the committee is working very well.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I would like to compliment everybody involved in yesterday's meeting on withholding information. It really opened up many perspectives and the model of doing this is very beneficial for all of us.

Chairman

The issue of withholding of information is very sensitive. Our meeting yesterday morning was crucial and I compliment the people who were involved. We will have another meeting later at noon.

Deputy Dara Calleary

Does that depend on the Order of the Dáil or is it still going ahead?

Chairman

The committee is subject to deferral but it will probably happen. Is there any other business? No.

The joint committee adjourned at 11 a.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 7 December 2011.