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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, DEFENCE AND EQUALITY debate -
Tuesday, 27 Mar 2012

Property Services Regulatory Authority: Discussion with Chairperson Designate

I welcome Ms Geraldine Clarke, chairperson designate of the Property Services Regulatory Authority, and thank her for coming before us. The purpose of this meeting is to have an engagement with the chairperson designate of the authority. I ask everyone to ensure their mobile phones are completely switched off, not merely left in silent mode, because they interfere with the recording system.

I draw Ms Clarke's attention to the fact that witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the joint committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they do not criticise or make charges against a person or persons or an entity, by name or in such as way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they do not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or persons outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Ms Geraldine Clarke

I am honoured to have been asked by the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, to be chairperson of the Property Services Regulatory Authority. I thank members for the invitation to come before the joint committee. It is a privilege for me to be here. Although an eleven page submission has been circulated to the committee on my behalf, they will be delighted to hear that I do not intend to refer to it in great detail. I will, perhaps, provide a synopsis and then deal with questions members may wish to pose. They will be pleased to know that I intend to skip the part at the beginning of the submission which relates to me.

I am a solicitor and have been practising for more years than I am prepared to admit. I am a former president of the Law Society of Ireland and the Dublin Solicitors Bar Association. When I was a member of the council of the Law Society of Ireland, I chaired the various regulatory committees of the society. Currently, I am a member of the disciplinary tribunal. I have always had an interest in professional regulation of one kind or another. I am, therefore, very pleased to have been asked to chair the Property Services Regulatory Authority.

As members are aware, the authority is an entirely new entity. It has been established for the purpose of controlling and regulating property service providers, including auctioneers, estate agents, letting agents and management agents. The legislation which underpins the authority is unique in Europe. We are, therefore, at the forefront in this regard. For the first time, we will have effective regulation of the industry.

As members probably know, the previous system of regulation was governed by the Auctioneers and House Agents Acts 1947 to 1973. This system provided for the licensing of service providers and no more. It was outdated, inappropriate and extremely inadequate in the context of current market conditions. There was no official supervisory or disciplinary mechanism in place to govern the profession; neither was there a consumer redress system in place.

A review group was established in 2005 and charged with making recommendations to the then Minister. The group included representatives of the auctioneering profession, consumers, the farming sector, the co-operative sector, the Competition Authority, the Law Society of Ireland and relevant Departments. The review group recommended the setting up of the authority to achieve the following: transparency in the licensing of service providers; to implement a complaints handling and redress system for consumers; to enhance the competence of service providers; to monitor the standards in the provision of services; to provide greater protection for clients' money; and to promote a code of ethics for service providers. The Government of the day accepted the review group's recommendation and the Act was signed into law at the end of 2011. Pending the enactment of the legislation, an implementation team, of which I was honoured to be a member, was established to advise on practical matters relating to the establishment of the authority and to prepare for the new regulatory system. Since then extensive work has been done by the implementation team and we are now at a point where the Act can be brought into operation with minimal delay.

The authority's headquarters has been established in Navan, County Meath. A chief executive, Tom Lynch, has been appointed on foot of a competition run by the Civil Service commissioners and staff have also been appointed.

A vast number of advisory and regulatory documents and regulations have been prepared, which will fall to be made under the Act before the new regime can be implemented. Those regulations include those which specify the classes of licence and licence fees. There will be schemes for education and training to qualify as auctioneers. A compensation fund will be established to protect clients' money and to make sure that any client whose money has been wrongly taken by a service provider will be compensated. There will be rules for keeping and preserving client accounts and provisions for professional indemnity insurance to be held by every property service provider. Codes of practice have been drawn up in consultation with consumer and industry representative bodies and a guide for users of services has also been drawn up. I have one of them with me and they are readily available.

Extensive work has been done on setting up IT systems. A register of licensed auctioneers and estate agents has been established with the assistance of the Revenue Commissioners. This register is a list of all auctioneers and house agents licensed under the auctioneers Acts up to date. Once the authority takes over, this will be updated and expanded to include all new licensees and, in particular, management agents who will also come to be licensed under this new legislation.

I would like to pay tribute to Tom Lynch and the staff for the work that they have done during the past number of years. Essentially, the work they have done in the interim has ensured that now that this legislation has been passed the authority can hit the ground running.

The functions of the authority under the Act are listed in the Act. Essentially, they are as follows: to provide a comprehensive licensing system to cover all property service providers; to specify and enforce standards to include education and training standards; to establish a system of investigation of licensees and other persons providing services; to establish a system of investigation and adjudication of complaints made against property services providers; to provide for minimal levels of professional indemnity insurance and a compensation fund; and to establish and maintain a residential property price register and commercial leases database. There will be codes of practice, which have already been adopted, some of which will be developed as we proceed. The authority will also be the State competent authority for dealing with money laundering.

The key priorities of the authority at this point are: to introduce the new licensing system immediately and with a little delay as possible; to establish a complaints investigation and redress system to ensure that if a consumer or a customer has a complaint, there is a system whereby that complaint can be investigated and dealt with; to prescribe and set up new procedures for property service providers to deal with clients' money; to have new mandatory contracts which will set out clearly what the property services providers undertake to do and that those contracts will be in writing; to establish the compensation fund; and to establish the residential property price register and commercial leases database.

I do not propose to go through all of those in detail. The qualifications will be prescribed by regulation. Many of these will have to be dealt with by regulation and, as we are a brand new authority, the authority will have to consider and consult as to what is proper in all the circumstances. There will be a professional indemnity insurance requirement and a compensation fund requirement. Each applicant for a licence will have to pay a specified sum of money into the compensation fund before such a licence is granted. There is an obligation under the Act to ensure that at the end of a four-year period there will be a minimum of €2 million in that compensation fund.

In regard to tax clearance issues, it is important to note that the company or partnership which is to be licensed will also be required to be tax compliant and all directors of the company concerned or partners in the partnership concerned must supply tax clearance certificates.

Each property service provider will be required to be licensed. This does not only refer to the company but each person who is providing services will be required to hold a licence. In the same way as a driver's licence entitles a driver to do a number of different functions, one licence may authorise a property service provider to provide a number of different functions.

There are stringent sanctions in the Act. Any legislation or regulation, in particular, is only as good as the sanctions which apply in the event that the regulation is not complied with. The Act makes it an offence for any person not licensed to either provide a property service or hold themselves out, as it were, as providing one. There are provisions for payments of a fine, not exceeding €5,000 or 12 months imprisonment, for minor offences and more serious offences are liable to more stringent fines.

The client's account is important given that for the first time service providers will have to hold clients' money in separate client accounts. The authority will make regulations in regard to the type of bank accounts which may be opened and the circumstances in which moneys other than client moneys can be paid into a client account. Proper accounting records must be available at the end of each year, to be provided and inspected in the meantime by the authority.

The authority has already had discussions with representatives of the industry and with consumer interests on the regulations. Much of what has been achieved has happened by consensus. Very wide consultation has taken place with the representative bodies and with consumer organisations. Much of what has been achieved in respect of the code of ethics and the users' guides, that code of practice, has been achieved by consensus. Therefore much of this work has already been done.

In regard to the management agents, for the first time these will come to be regulated as well. There will be a property service providers contract, which each management agent will have to enter into, and it is a very comprehensive document which has already been drafted. That will essentially set out for the first time precisely what the property management agents undertake to do. They will have to identify who their clients are and they will have to have a written contract. That contract will have to be signed by both parties so that there can be no ambivalence as to what exactly it is they do.

It is Government policy and a Government priority that the establishment of a residential property prices register will be set up. These databases will provide details of the addresses of all properties sold or leased within the State, the dates of such sales and the consideration. A good deal of work has already been done on this. Much of the core data has already been provided by the Revenue Commissioner and this data will be used for establishing the registers. There are ongoing discussions with the Revenue Commissioners with a view to ensuring the registers can be introduced without delay following the establishment of the authority.

I refer briefly to the important provision in the new Act that the authority must levy fees on service providers to ensure it is self-financing. The aim is to ensure that the costs of running the authority are fully met from the fee income generated and that these costs will not be borne by the taxpayer.

I am sorry, Chairman, if this is a bit of a whistle-stop tour. I will be happy to answer any questions.

I welcome Ms Clarke to the committee and wish her well in her new position. I compliment the staff team, whom I presume are here behind us, on all their work to date. It struck me, listening to the presentation and reading the documents, that we are locking the stable door after the horse has bolted yet again when it comes to regulation and standards in the property industry. Ms Clarke spoke about controlling and regulating property service providers, and I have a couple of questions in this regard. Given the cynicism and despair among many citizens about property and those in the property industry, be they builders, auctioneers, banks, politicians or anyone else, how will we measure, at the end of Ms Clarke's term of office, whether some element of confidence and trust has been restored to that market? The most important measure is the register of prices, and I am glad to see it has progressed so far. The days of reading about what we could buy in France, Spain or America for the same price as a little caravan here need to be over. We need some sort of independent register, and the sooner we see such information published and available, the sooner we might see some confidence in the market.

As public representatives we have all dealt with issues to do with management agents. There are more cowboys in that sector, I suspect, than one would see in a good western. Will there be a price register in that area also so that people can compare the price they pay for a management agent in their development to that of a similar development down the road? Ms Clarke spoke of achieving agreement between both parties. Is she referring to agreement between the actual person who provides the service and the residents' association, or between the person providing the service and each individual owner within a complex?

Ms Geraldine Clarke

I will take the questions in reverse order. With regard to the letter of engagement, the property management services agreement will be between the property manager and whoever the client is. In the ordinary way that is the management company. It is very specific, and this is for a good reason, namely, there can be no ambivalence about who the client is and what the services to be provided are. As the legislation does not provide for the authority to regulate management companies - the property service provider is the only entity that can be regulated - the contract will put an onus on the management service provider to identify the client and to set out in detail what services will be provided and the basis on which they will be provided.

Much progress has already been made with regard to the register of prices, and it is more or less ready to go, although further information is required. There were considerations with regard to data protection, which have now been removed following the implementation of the Act. As the Act imposes a liability on the authority to obtain and publish this information, data protection concerns do not arise. The idea is that for each property sold - not just houses - the register will show the address of the property, the date of sale and the consideration. Once that information is available there will be major progress. Some of the information, as members know, is already available to the Revenue Commissioners, but it is not available to the public.

The Deputy asked how we would measure success at the end of my term. The idea is that there will be proper licensing and minimum requirements in terms of education or experience. There will be ongoing monitoring of the services being provided so that at the end of every licensing period and on renewal of the licence, there will be an opportunity for the authority to monitor the manner in which the provider has been performing. It is a measure of a successful regulation that a consumer who has a complaint is provided with a forum in which the complaint can be aired and dealt with competently and independently, in a manner that he or she considers to be fair. That is one of the things the authority provides. There will be a complaints handling procedure whereby any member of the public who has a complaint about a property service provider with regard to the standard of service provided can make that complaint knowing it will be handled and dealt with in a timely manner. The Act allows the authority to penalise people who do not perform those services properly and who do not treat their clients properly.

I welcome Ms Clarke and compliment her on the implementation of these provisions. Could she give us some more insight into the complaints and appeals procedure? She said in her presentation that this was one of the shortcomings of the process. How much work has gone into establishing the procedure? Is she happy that the resources are there for her to do the job she is being asked to do?

Ms Geraldine Clarke

With regard to the complaints process, the Deputy will understand that the formal claims handling process could not be put in place until the Act was implemented, but in fact the implementation group has already been handling complaints on an ad hoc basis. It has been able to do this by dealing with the complainant and the person complained about and reaching a consensus. One of my priorities is to ensure that once the required regulations are in place a complaints handling procedure will be set up. There are some regulations that still need to be approved before the authority can begin to function properly. Until we know the level and nature of the complaints, it will be quite difficult to know what staff or resources will be required. However, the Act provides that the authority must be self-financing, so there will be no call on public money to do this.

How many persons are on the authority, including Ms Clarke?

Ms Geraldine Clarke

The intention is that there will be 11, including the chairman.

Have they been appointed yet?

Ms Geraldine Clarke

Not to my knowledge.

Does Ms Clarke have any say in their appointment?

Ms Geraldine Clarke

No.

Ms Clarke mentioned that the authority is to act as the State competent authority for money laundering. Could she say a bit about that?

Ms Geraldine Clarke

The money laundering legislation requires that there must be an authority to monitor and deal with any complaints relating to money laundering or, in the event of a complaint about an incident relating to money laundering, it would have to be investigated and, if necessary, reported.

Is Ms Clarke referring to money laundering with regard to property sales and so on?

Ms Geraldine Clarke

Yes. As the Chairman is aware, the legislation is very wide. Essentially, the section, if I remember correctly, refers to the proceeds of crime or any other illegal activity. That is widely interpreted, and can be interpreted to refer to tax evasion or any handling of moneys other than in a straightforward way on foot of a contract.

Has Ms Clarke been liaising with the Criminal Assets Bureau?

Ms Geraldine Clarke

I hope I will not have to, but the fact that that function has been delegated to the authority means there is an obligation on the authority to do whatever is necessary.

Could Ms Clarke say a little about codes of practice?

Ms Geraldine Clarke

A guide for users has been prepared and is already available. In addition, a code of practice is being prepared in consultation with the representative bodies. Essentially it sets out the relationship with the client, covering issues such as confidentiality, conflicts of interest, the handling of a client's money, advising him or her on the fees to be charged, recording offers, as well as the mandatory requirements in respect of having professional indemnity insurance, separate accounts for maintaining client funds and a compensation fund.

Ms Clarke has mentioned that a minimum educational standard will be laid down, but that people who have been practising for some time will be deemed to have reached that standard. How is it proposed to measure the level of expertise required?

Ms Geraldine Clarke

The period of transition to new legislative provisions will always be difficult. For people entering the property service business, the intention is that they must have completed a two year third level diploma course. There are a number of courses already available which might be tailored to fit the new requirements. We are looking closely at such options in conjunction with a number of third level institutions. Proposed change is always difficult for people working in the property business. Clearly, it will not be feasible to suggest everybody returns to education to gain these qualifications, but it will depend on one's experience. The intention is that persons with experience and who have a knowledge of the business and comply with the code of practice, to which they will sign up, will be deemed to have reached the standard.

Deputy Dara Calleary has mentioned that in some cases, the stable door has been shut after the horse has bolted and is way down the field. Will Ms Clarke comment on media reports of possible conflicts of interests where licensees and auctioneers are also councillors?

Ms Geraldine Clarke

This issue must be considered and dealt with on an individual basis. As of now, there is no requirement that it ought to be an exclusive practice. I do not feel competent to comment on individual cases because each case should be looked at individually.

Let me comment on the metaphor used. It is very good that legislation is being introduced in what I call, optimistically, a period of calm. It is better that regulatory legislation be introduced during a period of calm, not when there is a crisis. When the legislation was first mooted, there was a property crisis and the legislation in place did not cover what was going on, but we will be ready for the next boom.

We wish Ms Clarke well and thank her for coming. I first met her during the debate on the infamous Copyright Bill about 15 years ago, which was a trial in itself.

Ms Geraldine Clarke

I remember it well.

No doubt Ms Clarke will meet the committee again to outline how things are working out.

Ms Geraldine Clarke

I thank the Chairman and members for being here, as I know there are more exciting things going on elsewhere.

Is it agreed that the committee forward a copy of the transcript of these proceedings to the Minister for his information? Agreed.

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