Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality debate -
Wednesday, 24 Oct 2012

Role and Functions: Discussion with Civil Defence Board

Chairman

The purpose of today's meeting is to be briefed on the background of the Civil Defence, its role today and the future thereof. On behalf of the joint committee, I welcome from the Civil Defence Board, Mr. Brian Spain, chairman, Mr. Bill Smith, director general and Ms Róisín McGuire, head of training. I thank them for their attendance.

I ask everyone to turn off their mobile telephones completely. Silent mode is not sufficient, as the telephone signals interfere with the sound recording system.

By virtue of section 17(2)(i) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in respect of a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are also directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members should be aware that under the salient rulings of the Chair, they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I now invite Mr. Spain to make the opening remarks.

Mr. Brian Spain

As chairman of the Civil Defence Board, I am pleased to have this opportunity to make a presentation to the joint committee on the work of Civil Defence. Civil Defence is a statutory volunteer-based organisation with more than 4,500 trained active members on its volunteer register. The role of Civil Defence is to provide effective support to the front-line emergency services and other community supports as directed. Civil Defence is all about volunteers and the essence of the organisation is its ethos of volunteerism. Civil Defence was set up in 1950 to be part of the national defence structure as the necessary civil response to potential hazards that might arise during a time of war or emergency. Following the establishment of Civil Defence, recruitment of volunteers by local authorities followed at local level. Candidates to attend instructor courses were identified and qualified through centralised training programmes to enable them to instruct at local level.

Arising from the Civil Defence Act 2002, the Civil Defence Board, which is a statutory authority under the aegis of the Department of Defence, was established in 2003 and is charged with the management and development of Civil Defence at national level. However, responsibility for Civil Defence policy remained with the Minister for Defence and the Secretary General of the Department is the Accounting Officer for the board. The board is funded by way of a grant-in-aid from the Department of Defence Vote. The grant-in-aid for 2012 is €5.585 million. Funding for Civil Defence operations at local level is shared on a 70:30 basis between the board and local authorities. The board provides policy direction, centralised training, administrative support and guidance, technical support and centralised procurement of major items of uniform and equipment. In July 2011, in line with the current policy of bringing back the functions of many State agencies into their parent Departments, the Government decided to bring forward legislation to dissolve the board and to transfer its functions back into the Department of Defence. In that regard, the Civil Defence Bill 2012 was published on Monday, 22 October 2012, and is expected to come before the Oireachtas shortly.

As the threat of a cold war and major nuclear conflict rescinded, Civil Defence development policy gradually evolved towards a more defined peacetime role for the organisation. That development policy was strongly re-affirmed with the publication of the White Paper on Defence in February 2000. The White Paper also provided for the decentralisation of Civil Defence headquarters and in September 2006, the organisation moved to its headquarters in Roscrea, County Tipperary. Civil Defence also retained the use of its refurbished training range and associated facilities at the rear of its old headquarters at Ratra House in the Phoenix Park, Dublin. Furthermore the framework for major emergency management, published by the Government in 2006, set out the structures for a co-ordinated response to a major emergency by the front-line services, acting in tandem with the support services. The strategic development plans and training programmes for Civil Defence in recent years have very much embraced that support role to the front-line services and community support activities.

The business of Civil Defence is about training of volunteers and emergency preparedness and the Civil Defence training unit is an integral part of Civil Defence headquarters. The primary function of the training unit, in co-operation with local authorities, is to identify and provide the training necessary for Civil Defence volunteers at local authority level to carry out their role. Each year, the unit produces a training programme, which outlines the training available to Civil Defence volunteers. The training unit also provides policy and guidance documents to local authorities. In recent years, the training unit has achieved recognition for the award of certificates by regulatory bodies such as the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council, PHECC, and the Further Education and Training Awards Council, FETAC. This has enabled volunteer students to qualify on some courses to the same professional standards as full-time front-line personnel, which is a distinct advantage to students in developing their careers outside of Civil Defence. It is the range of disciplines and skills in which members are trained and the multidisciplined approach to training volunteers that makes Civil Defence unique in terms of response capability. A detailed profile of core disciplines is included in members' briefing material.

Civil Defence operations at local level are under the overall control of the city or county manager. Day-to-day management is carried out by the Civil Defence officer, whose range of duties includes recruitment, training, the management of local operations and exercises and associated administrative tasks. The support of a strong team of senior volunteers is vital if a Civil Defence officer is to effectively manage and develop the organisation at local level. The national profile of Civil Defence was greatly enhanced with the comprehensive and sustained nature of the response by the organisation to the severe weather that affected all parts of the country in 2009-10 and 2010-11. It has been widely acknowledged that the maintenance of HSE outreach services to people in isolated communities would not have been possible without the assistance of Civil Defence during those periods. Ongoing assistance to the front-line services in responding to localised and more widespread flooding has been a feature of Civil Defence activities in recent times. Providing assistance to the Garda in search and rescue and recovery operations for missing persons, both on land and in the water, also has become a regular feature of Civil Defence operations in all areas. Such operations also allow Civil Defence to utilise their training in support of a multi-agency response to an incident, as would be the case in a major emergency. A case in point is the rescue operation following the tragic sinking of the trawler, Tit Bonhomme, in Glandore Harbour, County Cork, in January last where almost 8,000 volunteer hours were given by Civil Defence volunteers and which has been described in more detail in members' briefing material.

In additional to operational activities, the value that Civil Defence brings to communities all over Ireland can be clearly seen in the organisation’s support of community events. One need only look at the major role played by Civil Defence during all of the high-profile community events during the summer such as the tall ships festival in Dublin, the Volvo Ocean Race in Galway, the arrival of the Olympic torch in Ireland and the triumphant homecoming of our Olympics heroes, such as Katie Taylor. Civil Defence volunteers also can be seen at hundreds of other community events, both large and small, throughout the country every year.

There is no doubt that the State benefits hugely from the voluntary efforts of Civil Defence members. Equally, there is no doubt that the need to support the front-line services to respond to climatic and other events will remain. Civil Defence will continue to develop in accordance with the policy as set out in the White Paper, that is, to be an effective support to the front-line emergency services and to continue with its community support activities. The decision to bring Civil Defence at national level back into the Department of Defence is a positive development for the organisation. Civil Defence has never stood still. It has evolved to meet the many and varied challenges that have been placed in its path. The sustained investment in equipment and training over recent years, the experience gained in supporting the front-line services at major operations and events, allied to the move back more towards the centre of emergency response arrangements, leaves the organisation well placed to meet the challenges that lie ahead.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Spain for his presentation and open the floor to Deputy Ó Fearghaíl.

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl

I am standing in for Deputy Niall Collins. First and foremost, I thank Mr. Spain and his delegation for the comprehensive presentation. It would be remiss of all members not to acknowledge the standing of the Civil Defence organisation across the country, where the work it does is recognised in local communities and where its volunteers are clearly identified and recognised in the communities they serve. During the inclement weather experienced nationwide in 2009 and in 2010, members saw at first hand the invaluable work Civil Defence does. In rural Ireland, small isolated communities certainly had reason to be deeply grateful to Civil Defence for coming to their assistance in circumstances that involved real human hardship. One cannot but be impressed by the figure supplied by Mr. Spain of 8,000 man-hours during that terrible crisis with the Tit Bonhomme, which shows the scale of the commitment. Civil Defence also is to be commended on the type of training it evidently is undertaking with its volunteers, I refer to the work it has done on pre-hospital training and the FETAC awards it has been acquiring and so on.

I note Mr. Spain has welcomed the return to the Department of Defence. I am thinking somewhat of Sir Humphrey, because I do not believe the Civil Defence board ever strayed very far from the Department of Defence when one considers the composition of the board. When the Bill was introduced, the then Minister of State, Mr. Brennan, seemed anxious to engage the participation in Civil Defence of outside agencies. I note the participation of the volunteers on the board, the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland and so on. Whereas one fully accepts the reality and pragmatism of the move back to the Department of Defence, from which the board never really strayed far, in the new manifestation that will exist for Civil Defence once this Bill is passed, where will the opportunities exist for the volunteers to influence the course of the work of Civil Defence? Is Mr. Spain satisfied that the board will be able to engage freely with other Departments in the way that it could during in its period of autonomy, if we could call it that?

Chairman

Perhaps Mr. Spain could answer that question and then we can come back to the Deputy's next question.

Mr. Brian Spain

As I mentioned in my opening statement, the Bill was published on Monday and we hope it will be taken before Christmas. When Civil Defence comes back into the Department, we are working to put in place a forum to allow us to be able to tap into the views and experience of people such as the Civil Defence volunteers, the Civil Defence Officers Association and other relevant Departments and Government agencies. We are conscious that these people have given us invaluable advice through the years. Even before the Civil Defence Board was established, we would have had very close contacts with many of those organisations. I appreciate the Deputy's point and it is our intention to have some type of forum in which we can tap into the experience and advice of the various organisations. That is particularly true for volunteers because Civil Defence would not exist without the volunteers. We often use the expression that Civil Defence is about volunteers, volunteers, volunteers. We have already assured the volunteer organisation of Civil Defence that there will be a forum where we can capture their views, advice and experience.

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl

That is good to hear. Having read the board's report, I am somewhat concerned that there are approximately 4,500 "active" members. I ask Mr. Spain to explain that to us. It was 6,000 in 2002 when the board was established. One would have hoped that at a time of significant levels of unemployment with people again focusing on volunteerism that there would have been a greater level of participation. I ask Mr. Spain to outline the Civil Defence recruitment processes, age profile and gender balance in the organisation.

Chairman

Perhaps we could get answers to those questions and come back for more.

Mr. Brian Spain

I will pass some of those questions on to the director general who would be more au fait with the situation. When we speak about the 4,500, we are very strict in regarding them as active members. We have many more members on the books who may not be as active as those 4,500 people. I believe the membership would go up to approximately 6,000 or 7,000.

Mr. Bill Smith

I believe we have 6,400 volunteers on the books. In our register we have criteria for considering people as either active or inactive based on attending courses or events within the year. We can definitively say that the active strength is 4,500 at the moment.

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl

What are the age and gender profiles?

Mr. Bill Smith

The age profile varies. As Mr. Spain said in his opening statement, there is a strong extended-family tradition to membership of Civil Defence. It tends to be father-daughter, brother-sister, etc. While I do not have a definitive figure, the gender balance would be approximately 50:50. There would not be a huge differentiation between the genders. The age profile has varied. The volunteers coming to us in more recent years would tend to be somewhat older than those who would have come to us five or six years ago. They come to us with more experience, have driving licences and experiences from their working lives. We tend to get more experienced and better-trained people coming to us in recent years.

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl

We see Civil Defence people attending many important community events - some of them commercial community events. Does the organisation have the capacity to generate some income from the participation in those types of events? Civil Defence is described as a second-line emergency service, which is a very important role. I wonder about the quality of emergency planning throughout the country. I sometimes feel that local authorities and emergency planning are almost contradictory in terms. Is Mr. Spain satisfied with the standard of emergency planning across the country? Does it vary between counties?

Mr. Brian Spain

On the first point, where a local defence unit is involved with a commercial operation, it will normally make a contribution to the local Civil Defence unit and the local Civil Defence unit is allowed to retain that funding to buy equipment for itself.

I will answer the second question on emergency planning, bearing in mind that I wear two hats as chairman of the Civil Defence Board and also in my other role in the Department of Defence with responsibility for the national Office of Emergency Planning. The national framework for major emergencies, which was published in 2006, set out a structure whereby emergencies are dealt with at a local level, which can then escalate to regional and national levels. So there is a structure and system in place for dealing with emergencies. The Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, which obviously has responsibility for local authorities, is represented on the Government task force on emergency planning. Through the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government the local authorities have direct input into emergency planning at the national task force level.

We are satisfied that at exercises we have held and in various incidents that have arisen, when there is a need to escalate an incident from a local level up to a regional level, that has happened. The framework has worked in that regard. Examples would include some of the severe weather incidents where a local authority might have been overwhelmed by the conditions in its particular county and it was able to ratchet it up to a regional level and get the support of not just the surrounding local authorities, but also of the Defence Forces and Civil Defence people. In addition to the local committees, there are regional committees dealing with emergency planning which meet on a regular basis and bring together all the relevant bodies, including local authorities, HSE, Garda and the Defence Forces. There is a system in place to ratchet it up.

Senator Paul Bradford

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their presentation and ongoing efforts. I have a question on the recruitment of volunteers. In what way is admission to the Civil Defence advertised or how is it encouraged? Is it done directly by the local authorities or through a national advertising campaign? In the board's new format with, presumably, some degree of new thinking coming into the equation, would it be possible to encourage more young people by way of a "junior civil defence" - there may be a better name than that? Not just at this committee, but at numerous Oireachtas committees, we have debated the need to encourage more young people and in particular people from disadvantaged communities, to become more engaged in their communities by way of volunteer work. While it would not be any type of national service, the concept of the Civil Defence organisation and the responsibility that comes with it would be of enormous benefit to young people. Perhaps some consideration could be given to some kind of civil defence junior corps comprising people of leaving certificate age. How, where and when does recruitment occur?

Mr. Brian Spain

I would like to comment on that issue, following which I will ask the director general to do so. Generally speaking, civil defence is organised in each county. While as the Civil Defence Board we are responsible for civil defence at a national level, civil defence at a local level rests with the local county manager or city manager, as the case may be. There is a Civil Defence officer in each county, who is an official of the local authority rather than of the board, with responsibility for civil defence in their particular county. The local Civil Defence officer has various different methods of recruiting volunteers, some of which would be traditional and others of which would be dependent on the particular county in which he or she lives. In general, membership of the Civil Defence force is increasing, with a waiting list in many counties of people wishing to join. People either get involved in Civil Defence through family tradition, word of mouth or campaigns organised by a local Civil Defence officer. For example, I recently spoke to a local Civil Defence officer at a competition who had organised a campaign over a number of weekends in various shopping centres in the area through which he met people and encouraged them to get involved. That is one way in which people are recruited into Civil Defence. I will hand over now to Mr. Smith, who may wish to comment further on this issue.

Mr. Bill Smith

We have been over-subscribed to some extent in recent years. We also have a capacity problem locally in terms of accommodation and training facilities. Centralised training is provided at the Civil Defence training unit, with people who qualify locally being trained nationally by us. There is a capacity limitation at both ends of the equation.

Emergency planning was referred to earlier. The mix of skills that might be required in a coastal county would differ from those required in an inland county in which there may be lakes, rivers and so on. The emergency planning arrangements in each local authority would differ slightly in terms of the mix of skills required by a Civil Defence officer to meet the local emergency planning arrangements which feed into local authority emergency plan. This mix of skills requires a certain cadre of strength. It is not just about numbers. It is more about a mix of skills and the capacity of the officer to train recruits who are then sent on to us for training at national level. There are, unfortunately, limitations on capacity.

Senator Paul Bradford

Perhaps Mr. Smith would elaborate on the possibility for engagement with younger people.

Mr. Bill Smith

One or two organisations include a cadet corps, including the Order of Malta and, perhaps, the Irish Red Cross. The Civil Defence has never had a cadet corps per se. The matter has never been considered within the organisation as a serious proposition. It is not an issue which we have considered of late because, as I said, we are over-subscribed in terms of volunteers. During the good economic times, many transition year students got involved in Civil Defence to gain experience and a certificate and so on. Unfortunately, they leave Civil Defence when they go to college in various parts of the country. A Civil Defence officer must focus on retaining a core strength in the force. As such, there are a mix of young and old people involved.

Chairman

What is the upper and lower age limit?

Mr. Bill Smith

Generally, 16 to 60 years. In practice, it is normally 18 to 60 years.

Chairman

Are there any other restrictions in terms of people joining and are people vetted?

Mr. Bill Smith

Yes. The board has had a policy in place for the past two years of Garda vetting for new members, initially, and now for all members of Civil Defence. Current members of Civil Defence are in the process of Garda vetting. This process is almost complete.

Senator Martin Conway

I come from County Clare, which is a coastal county where we often see the benefits of Civil Defence, although in tragic circumstances. At the time of the flooding of half of Ennis, I was chairperson of the SPC and a member of the crisis management team. Reference was made to emergency planning. It is only when one is faced with an emergency that one realises the level of emergency planning in place in this country and the role of the Civil Defence in terms of dealing with emergencies.

What is the relationship between Civil Defence and the Garda Reserve, which is similar in terms of its backing up a core emergency provision? I would view the Garda Reserve in the same light as Civil Defence in terms of the work it does. Is there much joined-up thinking or co-operation between both organisations?

Mr. Brian Spain

Civil Defence is a distinct organisation from that of the Garda reserve. Obviously, the Garda Reserve exists to support the Garda Síochána. The skills which Garda Reserve personnel have differ from the skills of Civil Defence volunteers. We work closely with the Garda Síochána. There is a representative of the Garda Commissioner on the current Civil Defence Board. We always try to facilitate the Garda in whatever way we can. The skills of a Garda Reserve volunteer would differ from those of a Civil Defence volunteer.

Mr. Bill Smith

I attended the meeting of the crisis management team to which Senator Conway referred. The response was well co-ordinated. Civil Defence has been used - we are more than happy for this to happen - as a means of young people gaining experience in civil defence and then moving on to membership of the Garda Síochána, the fire service or HSE. This is happening all the time in Civil Defence. While we do not have a direct relationship with the Garda Reserve, similar to it, people use Civil Defence as a stepping stone to joining the Garda Síochána.

Chairman

Does Civil Defence engage with schools in terms of informing students about what it does? It is a good news story.

Mr. Bill Smith

Yes. The Civil Defence officer at local level would engage in shopping centres and schools. I cannot definitively say this happens in every local authority area but I am aware of it happening in a number of them on a regular basis.

Chairman

Could it be further encouraged by, say, the Department and so on?

Mr. Bill Smith

Yes.

Chairman

It was stated that there are waiting lists in respect of joining Civil Defence. Can Mr. Smith indicate how many people are on waiting lists? If he cannot do so today, perhaps he would forward the information to the committee.

Mr. Brian Spain

We will forward that information to the committee. The number of people on waiting lists varies between counties. I am aware that in Dublin there is a particularly lengthy waiting list. In taking people into Civil Defence, we must be able to give them a range of skills and training. We do not want to take people on for the sake of bolstering up numbers. We want well-qualified people.

Chairman

Is the training provided in-house by Civil Defence instructors or is some of it provided through FETAC and HETAC in local centres or schools?

Mr. Brian Spain

We have a training centre at our headquarters in Roscrea and another in the old headquarters in the Phoenix Park. Most of the training is provided in-house by Ms McGuire and her team. The idea behind this is that we train instructors who in turn train volunteers in the local units. However, in certain cases we do not have the required skills in-house and would have to engage outside contractors. I will ask Ms McGuire to comment further on that issue. We often have to engage outside people in the search and rescue area.

Ms Róisín McGuire

We engaged people from the fire service in respect of training in water awareness following severe flooding over two years. We work closely with the fire service. We have also engaged people from the HSE to deliver training. Many of those who deliver training on behalf of the HSE are also Civil Defence volunteers. Another area in respect of which we have engaged outside people is missing persons searches. This is an area in which Civil Defence is involved week in, week out, throughout the country. We are reviving a course previously held in respect of missing person searches, in respect of which there is a group here from the UK for training. The Garda is working with us in the provision of this training. We also work with a group from the UK that provides rope rescue. It is hoped that we will be able to deliver more training ourselves into the future. We provide a great deal of casualty training in-house.

Chairman

Does Civil Defence work with the Coast Guard service?

Mr. Brian Spain

We train personnel in the Coast Guard service. On training, it is becoming increasingly difficult to train volunteers to FETAC standards, which are increasing all the time. We support the increase in standards but it is becoming increasingly difficult to train volunteers to what are essentially professional standards. This is a concern among all volunteer organisations.

The by-product of this is that because of their training, many Civil Defence members can go on to careers in the HSE, particularly in the ambulance service and the fire service. There are benefits to it also.

Chairman

I notice 855 people trained in cardiac first response and 290 trained in emergency first responder courses. Mr. Spain mentioned some people are active and others are not so active. How many people were trained in the past year in both of these areas? What has been the level of training in the past 12 months?

Ms Róisín McGuire

All our volunteers are trained to cardiac first response level. It is the basic first level to deal with cardiac arrest and heart attack. As they move up the ranks they do occupational first aid and emergency first response. I do not have the figures for the past year with me but we have ongoing training. We used to have local training during the academic year but now it carries on throughout the year. Along with the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council, PHECC, we have recertification every two years. Every two years we must recertify people so it is a constant process. We recertify our instructors who then recertify people locally.

Chairman

It appears that some of these courses are quite advanced and useful in other areas also.

Senator Paul Bradford

Is there consistency in the approach of local authorities with regard to leadership in training and management? Do they work together or does each local authority have a separate detached plan? I appreciate various counties have different priorities but do they come together to discuss planning and future strategies?

Mr. Brian Spain

With regard to Civil Defence or emergency planning generally?

Senator Paul Bradford

Civil Defence.

Mr. Brian Spain

Each county has a Civil Defence officer and they come together in Roscrea periodically to be briefed on what is going on and to try to co-ordinate. We also conduct exercises. We have just finished a round of regional exercises whereby teams from various parts of the country come together. We are very conscious of the fact that any assets we have should be available as widely as possible and shared and should not become the domain of any one individual county.

Mr. Bill Smith

To follow up on this point, the City and County Managers Association is represented on the Civil Defence Board and it is our intention that this continues in the forum. This provides a strategic managerial view of Civil Defence at local authority level. Normally the way managers split up their business is through certain consultative committees. We deal with the manager representative on the emergency response side. In other words we get the collective view of management on emergency response issues in our forum and we engage with them. We also have this route into local authorities.

Chairman

What is the accountability line? The Minister is ultimately responsible, obviously.

Mr. Brian Spain

The Minister is responsible and even with the establishment of the Civil Defence Board the Minister will remain responsible for Civil Defence policy and the Secretary General will remain the Accounting Officer. When Civil Defence goes back to the Department it will become a branch and integral part of it.

Chairman

I thank the witnesses very much for their attendance today and for the comprehensive briefings they have given us. It is the first time Civil Defence has been before an Oireachtas committee. Normally we bring before us organisations which need to be questioned on what they do that is not so good. Civil Defence is a major success story and it is important to recognise this also and encourage the organisation to continue the good work with the changes that will occur. It is quite important that good news like this spreads into the community, which might benefit from Civil Defence training and the organisation's ethos, as Senator Bradford mentioned. I recognise the good work Civil Defence does on behalf of this State and I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee.

Mr. Brian Spain

I thank the committee. If any committee members are interested in visiting either the headquarters in Roscrea or the training ranges in the Phoenix Park in Dublin, which perhaps would be easier to visit, we would be delighted to facilitate it.

Chairman

We might take Mr. Spain up on that in the spring.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.45 a.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 21 November 2012.