Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality debate -
Wednesday, 21 Nov 2012

Garda Operations: Discussion with An Garda Síochána

Chairman

The purpose of today's meeting is to have discussions with the Garda Commissioner on two main topics - first, recent gangland-related crimes and, second, community policing and the closure of Garda barracks.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome the Garda Commissioner, Mr. Martin Callinan, the Deputy Garda Commissioner for operations, Ms Noirín O'Sullivan, the Deputy Garda Commissioner for strategy and change management, Mr. Nacie Rice, the Assistant Garda Commissioner for national support services, Mr. Derek Byrne, and the Assistant Garda Commissioner for crime and security, Mr. John O'Mahoney. Superintendent David Taylor, Garda public relations officer, is also present.

The format of today's meeting is that the Commissioner will make opening remarks, which will be followed by a questions and answers session. With the Commissioner's agreement, I propose that we divide the session in two and deal with gangland crime first. After members have engaged on that subject, the Commissioner can make a presentation on the second topic, namely, community policing and the closure of Garda barracks, and members will engage on it. They are distinct areas.

Mr. Martin Callinan

That is fine.

Chairman

Before we begin, I draw the witnesses' attention to the privilege situation. They should note that they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence that they are to give to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and they continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given.

They are asked to respect parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members should also be aware that under salient rulings of the Chair, members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask everybody to switch off their mobile telephones completely as they interfere with the recording. It is not sufficient for them to be put in silent mode.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I am the first offender. I had the phone in silent mode and I will switch it off. I begin by thanking the Chairman and the committee for the opportunity to address them on such important issues as organised crime, station closures and community policing. An Garda Síochána is committed to proactively targeting groups and individuals engaged in criminal activity, including organised criminal activities and white collar crime. Members of An Garda Síochána continue to utilise all available legislation in targeting, disrupting and bringing to justice those responsible.

The fluidity of the membership, together with the incarceration of members and the ad hoc nature of the criminal enterprises at any given time challenges the calculation of numbers engaged in organised crime groups. That said, there are approximately 25 organised crime groups operating throughout the State. Whereas most organised crime groups are domestically orientated, there are a number that would have a significant international dimension, and such organised crime groups are reported to be involved in drugs, firearms, trafficking and other dimensions of the criminal code. We contribute to the Europol Serious and Organised Crime Threat Assessment, SOCTA, every year, working with international partners in providing information on all these groupings to that forum.

Whereas organised crime groups are present in each Garda region, the majority of them are centred in large urban areas such as Limerick, Cork, Galway, Sligo and Dublin. There is a high amount of interaction between the various organised crime groups throughout the country who regularly pursue joint enterprises, particularly drug imports. The vast majority of organised crime groups are drug trafficking groups who are prepared to use violence and intimidation to further their aims. Each of these organised crime groups is structured hierarchically and would typically consist of a leadership, a number of middle-managers and low level criminals who could carry out day-to-day running of these organised crime groups.

Organised crime groups in this jurisdiction continue to work closely with criminals in Northern Ireland for the purpose of drugs and weapon procurement and supply, as well as a route to transport stolen goods. Organised crime groups with connections on both sides of the Border are utilising both Northern Ireland and this jurisdiction as transit routes, which is a legacy of the dark and distant past and some subversive groups. Links between dissident republicans and organised crime groups here continue to cause serious concern. A relationship of friction and facilitation appears to exist between organised crime groups in this jurisdiction and some dissident elements. Taxing and extortion of drug dealers by dissident republicans have occurred in recent years.

Irish organised crime groups continue to forge and develop links to international criminal networks. Holland, Spain and the UK remain the key locations for foreign liaisons, mainly due to the established drug transportation routes. Associations between Irish and Russian organised crime groups have also been observed and they work together on drug and cigarette ventures. The presence of Russian organised crime groups operating in Spain is also influencing the activities of Irish criminals there.

Garda executive action directed against organised crime groups consists of targeted intelligence-led operations utilising the resources of the national support services and crime and security branch in partnership with divisional and regional resources with a view to disrupting and dismantling these networks. There are a number of organised crime groups which travel between the regions engaging in residential and commercial burglaries, robberies and distraction theft. These groups are targeted under a number of regional operations and nationally under Operation Fiacla.

Since the enactment of the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Act 2009 on 23 July 2009, to 30 September this year the legislation has been used on 179 occasions where arrests have been made relating to organised crime. To 30 September 2012, eight individuals have been charged under the legislation, with six under section 72 of the Criminal Justice (Amendment) Act 2009, participating or contribution to certain activities; and two under Section 71A of the Act, directing the activities of a criminal organisation. However, arising from the arrests of 179 persons since the commencement of this legislation, other charges have been preferred for firearms offences, sale and supply of drugs and drug trafficking, violent disorder, obtaining money with menaces, threats to kill, theft and ATM robberies, aggravated burglary with firearms, immigration offences and offences related to the Post Office (Amendment) Act 1951 etc.

In the context of station closures-----

Chairman

We might pause there and take station closures in a separate tranche of questioning. These are two separate issues.

Deputy Finian McGrath

I welcome the Garda Commissioner and the Garda management team. It has been indicated there are approximately 25 organised crime groups operating in this State. How many people are involved in this, including senior and middle people, right down to local people on the ground?

Mr. Martin Callinan

This is particularly difficulty issue to quantify. Groups, by their nature and depending on the level of enterprise, have different numbers. If the gang is involved in drug importation or distribution, firearms or another illicit activity, it may merge and diversify with other groups. It is particularly difficult to quantify. Within these cores there may be six to 12 people. Beyond that in certain cases there are substantial numbers operating within the groups.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Would there be 800 to 1,000 people directly involved?

Mr. Martin Callinan

It would be dangerous to speculate, and that is also true in putting numbers on subversive organisations. Generally, there is an inner and outer core, with a network of loosely associated family members etc. For example, a particular group may be involved in conducting armed robberies for the purpose of procuring cash to buy drugs. It might farm out certain duties, such as stealing cars or other specialisation, to other criminals further down the food chain. It is particularly difficult to formulate a number.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Do senior gardaí have a clear policy to deal with young people on the fringes of these gangs? For example, I get a regular complaint in my constituency that a person's son is involved in low level crime with a gang. If the gardaí are on that person's case, they may ask him to provide information. Is there a clear policy for families who wish to save children from being sucked into these gangs? That is happening at a local level, particularly in my constituency.

Mr. Martin Callinan

Our policy on young people involved in crime is clear.

We have a criminal youth diversion programme in place designed under statute for the purpose of youngsters not coming through the courts system. We would always encourage people, particularly young people up to 17 years of age, not to commit crime because that is what we are about, namely, the prevention and thereafter the detection of crime. We would at all times discourage people getting involved in criminal activity but we are aware that a number of people choose to ignore any advice or assistance given. We are working very hard on that with communities, particularly through joint policing committees, community fora, etc. We will discuss community policing shortly but we are trying desperately hard to get the message through to people that crime does not pay. These youngsters in communities see some of the people who are involved at the higher end driving high-powered cars and having a different lifestyle and they would like to emulate their lifestyle. We try very hard to prevent that but it is clear that we do not get through to everybody.

Deputy Finian McGrath

I thank the Commissioner. I have a final question. Can the Commissioner confirm if the Fr. Niall Molloy case from 1985 is still active-----

Chairman

Sorry, Deputy McGrath-----

Deputy Finian McGrath

-----because there has been some confusion over the weekend-----

Chairman

Deputy McGrath-----

Deputy Finian McGrath

-----and family members have contacted me to know if the investigation is active.

Chairman

I ask the Commissioner not to answer that question because we agreed beforehand that we would not raise it. I call Deputy Collins.

Deputy Finian McGrath

I think the Commissioner wanted to answer the question, Chairman.

Chairman

I call Deputy Collins.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Many people have genuine concerns about Fr. Niall Molloy's case and I think-----

Chairman

Can I suspend the meeting?

A Deputy

I support Deputy McGrath.

Chairman

I am suspending the meeting.

Sitting suspended at 10.22 a.m. and resumed at 10.30 a.m.

Chairman

Deputy Collins has questions for the Commissioner.

Deputy Niall Collins

I welcome the Commissioner and his team and congratulate him on the extension of his term. He is a bit like President Obama in that he is past the half way mark and is out the other side. That may strengthen his hand in some of the public-----

Mr. Martin Callinan

As long as the Deputy does not say I am past my best; I will accept every other compliment.

Deputy Niall Collins

Mr. Callinan is out the gap and out the other side. Congratulations to him. We are dealing with gangland crime. The Commissioner has given us an overview of 25 organised groups under his watch. Can we have an assessment of the mix of activities? There is an armed element to the importation of drugs and we are, unfortunately, familiar with the scourge of drugs. The other elements, highlighted by Retail Ireland, are the black market and the counterfeiting activities in which these organisations are involved. I refer in particular to the illegal tobacco trade, fuel laundering, counterfeiting of goods, digital piracy and counterfeiting of medicine. There is a huge cost to the economy, which can be estimated at between €500 million and €816 million per year. I refer also to the report on transnational crime presented to the US Congress. The Real IRA came in for specific mention with regard to the illegal tobacco trade: "The production, smuggling, and sale of tobacco products, including genuine and counterfeit cigarettes, is a lucrative form of financing for organized crime as well as terrorist groups, such as Hezbollah, Hamas, the Kurdistan Worker’s Party (PKK), and the Real Irish Republican Army (RIRA)." The Commissioner alluded to the international dimension of this. Can the Commissioner give us an assessment of the mix or are all gangs involved in all aspects of the illegal trade, including drugs? I have a number of follow-on questions arising from that.

Mr. Martin Callinan

The overwhelming majority of the 25 groups to which the Deputy refers, and the other five groups that have tentacles linked with the European and international criminal fraternity, are almost exclusively involved in drug trafficking. It has been the source of their income for many years. It drives almost all serious crime, which is no different from our nearest neighbours in the UK, in central Europe and beyond. Drug trafficking is internationally recognised and accepted as the catalyst for all serious crime issues the country faces. Having said that, many activities are triggered by drug trafficking, such as cash-in-transit robberies. Ordinary firearms crimes, aggravated burglaries and some of the upper end of the burglary crimes are committed by some of these groupings and all are aimed at funding drug activity.

Deputy Niall Collins

With regard to following through on investigating various organisations involved in drugs and other illegal activities, such as the black economy and retail crime, it is reported that the Garda Síochána has only two people with financial accountancy expertise available within its staff. How do these gangs launder their money in terms of getting it into the real economy in a so-called legitimate fashion? Does it come down to a skills mix question or a resources question? Does the Commissioner have the wherewithal to do this, or does he outsource for the exact expertise and speciality in following the money trail arising from these gangs' trades?

Mr. Martin Callinan

The report in the media at the weekend, in the context of the Garda National Bureau of Fraud Investigation, mentioned that there were two accountants in the section. We also have available the Criminal Assets Bureau, CAB, which is a multi-agency body. It has people from the taxation, customs, revenue and social welfare worlds as well as gardaí. There is an eclectic mix in the context of the staffing of the CAB. We are continuously targeting the individuals in all of the groupings I mentioned and trying to source their funds. It is a difficult exercise, with many firewalls built up between individuals and account holders in complex arrangements. All Garda divisions have profilers trained by the CAB who target people at the lower and middle level, where they see people living a lifestyle beyond their means. These people and their families are targeted and it is a constant stream of work. The evidence exists that the system is working although it may not be working as fast as people would like. There are major difficulties sourcing the kind of information we need to satisfy a court that an individual holding bank accounts, sometimes through family members, is linked to organised crime.

Deputy Niall Collins

We are all agreed that the public was hugely outraged at the events surrounding the funeral of Alan Ryan. It is what triggered the invitation to the Commissioner to appear at today's meeting. The public was outraged at the display. Can the Commissioner give us an assessment of the events surrounding it? It was reported that a certain amount of contact took place with the organisers of the funeral. We are looking for the Commissioner to give the public some comfort. There is a reputational dimension for the city of Dublin and the country. These images were screened all over the world and had a negative reputational effect. We do not want to see it happen again. We know the Commissioner does not want to see it again and is working to that end. Can he give us an assessment on how we will deal with the potential for it to happen again? There will always be such potential as long as these gangs exist. That is what the public want to hear about today. What can the Commissioner do to ensure it will not happen again?

Mr. Martin Callinan

That matter was of concern to us. I want to clear up the contact and the arrangement as reported in the media. As with all high-profile funerals, we appoint a family liaison officer to engage with family. On this occasion, contact was with the family and family members. Certain assurances were given to us in the context of the arrangements with the funeral and that is what we hope to achieve through that form of engagement. I will try to deal with the Deputy's question but I must be careful. We have arrested 21 people and a number of people are before the courts in the context of the case so I must be careful. In general terms, the organisation and I, as Commissioner of the Garda Síochána, are firmly focused on the activities of so-called dissident groupings and individuals within these groups. We worked tirelessly with our colleagues on the northern side to ensure we bring about the type of intervention and dismantling of these groups that is required to keep people in communities on both sides safe.

We have a strong Garda presence on the Border. We target particular individuals within these groupings and we share our intelligence with our colleagues in the PSNI and the British security services, with whom we interact. All of those aspects are contributing towards providing a safer community for everybody.

The murder of Alan Ryan was dreadful, and we extend our sympathy to the Ryan family. There has been considerable reportage in the media and it would be inappropriate for me to comment on Mr. Ryan or on what he represented. The investigation is live and we continue to employ vast resources in bringing the perpetrators of that crime to justice. We already have people before the courts, as the committee knows.

We are continuing to identify the people who were engaged in the display of paramilitarism. We will continue to make further arrests and bring people before the courts in regard to that. I have already publicly declared my support for the senior officer who was in charge on that day. It would have been wrong, and his professional judgment was correct in this regard, to have used force to intercede, which is what we would have been required to do on the occasion. There were many onlookers at the funeral procession, including women, children, men, neighbours and friends. It would have been inappropriate to intervene. I have said that previously. The professional judgment made by the senior commanding officer on the day was the right decision.

Will we take the foot off the pedal in future engagements with these people? That is not likely. It is a policing priority. The first of our strategic goals is national and international security. That is at the heart of what we are discussing. We will deploy as many resources, human and financial, as we deem appropriate to ensure that we keep the communities on both sides of this island safe. That includes countering this type of activity.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

I thank the Commissioner for coming in today.

Criminal gangs thrive on economic disadvantage, particularly in urban communities. There is an intergenerational conveyor belt of people who drift into petty crime and eventually work their way into these gangs. In parts of Dublin and Limerick whole communities have been terrorised by a handful of individuals.

What are the Commissioner's views on the joined-up multi-agency approach? When the Garda is successful in convicting some of these individuals they go to prison, where they can often be as great a threat as they were on the outside because their networks and systems of communication are still in place. Has the Garda looked at other multi-agency models? Last week, this committee looked at the penal reform system in Finland to see if we could apply that model to break up the culture of criminal activity organised from prison.

With regard to the communities, I see three elements. They are the prison service, the Garda Síochána and the third consists in the HSE and Department of Education and Skills, which have a role with regard to drugs and community support for young people. What is the Commissioner's sense of how those elements can work together to address the causes of crime and stop it getting to the stage where the Garda has to deploy considerable resources to tackle it?

Mr. Martin Callinan

Deputy Mac Lochlainn is right when he speaks about small numbers of individuals trying to exercise control over communities. That is the case. In the Garda Síochána, we are constantly trying, through joint policing committees and other community fora, to make the point that there are opportunities here for communities to take ownership of their communities and work with us. That is easier said than done, and we all know that, particularly when one is dealing with criminals at the high end of the scale. It has, however, been proven to have worked, particularly in areas where communities did stand up to these people.

That presents its own problems for us, as an organisation. It means we have to consider working with the witness protection programme or moving people, and so on. The Deputy spoke about the multi-agency approach and the other models. The Croke Park agreement provides an opportunity to explore some of those issues further.

Enforcement is not the solution to everything, although we have seen huge rates of enforcement, particularly in the last 36 hours. This morning the media reported a number of searches conducted, arrests made and grow houses discovered. Drugs with a street value of over €3.5 million were seized. That is on top of the other drugs seized this year, which far and away outweigh what was seized last year. There are lessons here for everyone. There is now a realisation that policing is not one-dimensional. It involves more than enforcement. It also involves educating our younger people and getting dialogue going with the other agencies of the State and with everyone involved in the criminal justice system. The prisons and the probation service have been mentioned. Dialogue and discussion with them is ongoing. The Croke Park agreement may provide another vehicle to advance that further.

All the elements need to be working. If it were just a question of enforcement the amount of drugs we have seized in the recent past would tell its own story.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

A few years ago, a study of the Garda youth programme proved that it reduced crime by 64%. That was a great success. Is the Commissioner satisfied that Garda resources for engaging with communities, community policing and juvenile liaison schemes are sufficient to prevent crime reaching the stage where officers have to be deployed at the front line against dangerous criminals?

Sinn Féin is of the opinion that we need to ring-fence the resources retrieved by the excellent work of the Criminal Assets Bureau for use in the communities most affected by crime, particularly in drug treatment programmes and community centres, in order to undermine the criminals who took from those communities.

Mr. Martin Callinan

The issue of resources weighs heavily on every section and unit of my organisation and on every part of the civil and public service. Garda personnel has been reduced somewhat. In the past two years the numbers have been reduced by almost 1,000. Resources, human and financial, are a challenge. Nevertheless, the prosecutions and arrests we have been making in recent times speak to the fact that we are efficient and effective. It is about smart policing and changing the dynamic of how we police while providing the type of service we provided previously. That involves the community.

Without the community we would not survive as a policing and security agency. The community is at the heart of everything we do.

The Criminal Assets Bureau, CAB, was mentioned. We spoke already about it being a multi-agency organisation. All the stakeholders that have a law enforcement input are working with us. One sees, for example, multi-agency checkpoints and how the dynamic of the CAB model works. That permeates all the way down. The advantage of joint policing committees is that they help to highlight how we can help each other. It also provides the opportunity to indicate to elected representatives such as the committee members and other community leaders the limitations that exist and the constraints placed upon us. By working together we can solve many of the problems in the community. The evidence in more recent times, in terms of the captures and seizures we have achieved, speaks to our efficiency and effectiveness at this point in time.

Deputy Robert Dowds

I congratulate the Garda Commissioner on his re-appointment. Is he in a position where he feels able to accept questions on white collar crime? If not, would he agree to appear before the committee on another occasion to discuss it?

Mr. Martin Callinan

Obviously, I will not talk about current cases.

Deputy Robert Dowds

I mean in general.

Mr. Martin Callinan

Yes, absolutely.

Chairman

If it is related to what is on the agenda, we already had a question on resources regarding accountants and the like. Perhaps the Deputy would ask specific questions as other members wish to participate as well.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Yes. I had the opportunity to look at some of the figures recently. It concerns me that the number of convictions for white collar crime has dropped substantially in the period from 2003 to 2010. I am not sure what the figures are for 2011. The figures I have uncovered show a drop from 579 convictions in 2003 to 278 in 2010. Can the Commissioner give an explanation for that? Is there a problem with resources and has he discussed this with the Minister? Can he suggest anything to achieve more success in bringing white collar crime cases to a successful conclusion?

Chairman

I appreciate that you did not receive notice about this. We spoke about it before the meeting and, as you said, following the money is important as well. Perhaps you can be as brief as possible about it.

Deputy Robert Dowds

If the Commissioner would prefer to come back to the committee at a later stage, that could be arranged.

Mr. Martin Callinan

No, it is fine. I appreciate the Deputy's offer. I saw some of the figures at the weekend. It related to a particular element of white collar crime, as it is branded. The Central Statistics Office refer to fraud-related crime, which is a much wider bracket. For the year 2010 there is a 51% conviction rate.

Conviction rates are quite tricky. In any year one is just dealing with a snapshot of what is happening in that year. In the wider context of so-called white collar crime, there is much activity ongoing. The advent of electronic business has provided challenges that did not exist heretofore. Certainly, in my younger days in my policing career we did not appear to have those problems and we dealt with cheque fraud, forgeries and so forth. We targeted those and got quite good results. It is still the case that we are well ahead of the curve as a policing service, in the context of other policing agencies, in respect of detections. Convictions are something else. Once we satisfy the threshold for the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, or there is sufficient evidence to charge somebody, it is then a matter for the courts. It is a tricky dynamic, and it is tricky to try to discuss convictions at length. However, I can assure the Deputy that white collar crime is very high on our agenda. Without telling tales out of school, it will feature very prominently in our policing plan and our strategy for next year and beyond.

Deputy Robert Dowds

Is there a need for greater resources in that area? According to what I uncovered through parliamentary questions, there are no solicitors or barristers in the Garda fraud squad and there are just two accountants employed there. People are very upset about white collar crime. Like me, I am sure the Commissioner would like to see a greater level of success. If he feels there is anything that should be done to try to improve the situation, perhaps he would outline it. Has he had a chance to discuss it with the Minister?

Mr. Martin Callinan

Of course we discuss not only white collar crime but all the policing disciplines and service areas to which we are obliged to attend. We discuss these on a very regular basis. The issue of resources in the Garda bureau of fraud investigation, in particular, has arisen in the context of the Anglo Irish Bank investigation and in other high profile cases. I wish to put on the record my grateful appreciation to colleagues in the Garda bureau of fraud investigation. These are highly skilled people who provide a sterling service on behalf of An Garda Síochána to the community. The evidence thus far in terms of the Anglo Irish Bank case in particular is testimony to that statement.

I should not go beyond that because the DPP is looking at other elements and strands. However, significant results are being achieved on a regular basis from this unit within the Garda. Yes, there are two accountants but also available to the unit, and to me and any other unit, are the services of the Chief State Solicitor's office. Where we have issues around very detailed and technical points we also have the Office of the Attorney General at our disposal. In addition, there are qualified barristers working in the legal section in Garda headquarters. A head of legal services within An Garda Síochána is also stationed in headquarters. Therefore, there is a range of people upon whom we can call.

This is an area that is being examined and there is a review taking place, particularly in the context of the new rostering arrangement, the clustering of people and so forth. The bureau of fraud investigation is being examined along with every other area. While we might not be working as speedily as some people would like, we must give careful consideration to ensure we do not transgress elements of the law that would collapse a case when it goes to court. We must be careful. Much of the work is detailed and complex. It requires us going into court and satisfying the court that we have sufficient suspicion or evidence to obtain an order to examine a person's account or whatever. It is tricky and detailed. The investigations, by their nature, are prolonged. That is part of the dynamic.

However, I am satisfied that the bureau is functioning very well. The CAB, the drugs squad, traffic corps and every other section in the organisation would dearly love to have more people, but we must be realists and deal with the hand we have. For the moment, we are managing quite well in terms of efficiency.

Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy

I thank the Commissioner and his colleagues for appearing before the committee this morning. I have two questions. Are the organised crime groups the Commissioner is aware of involved in any type of human trafficking either for forced labour or forced prostitution? Does the Commissioner have any evidence of organised crime groups getting involved in legitimate business as a cover to launder the proceeds of organised crime?

Mr. Martin Callinan

In the context of human trafficking, while we do not have particular evidence of organised crime groups in this country getting involved, we are aware of a number of trafficking cases being investigated. For instance, this year alone there are 29 live investigations, involving more than 40 suspects, so that is a work in progress. It is a difficult area to police. Depending on whom one talks to, there are different views, but we are aware of the issue. We have had two successful prosecutions on human trafficking this year. That is very much a work in progress.

Criminals and groups are certainly getting involved in legitimate enterprises and the Criminal Asset Bureau was established to tackle these people, including one very high-profile case in the past week or so. It takes considerable time to work its way through the system, but that is the system that is ordained. It is no accident that representatives from a number of jurisdictions in Europe have visited this country to look at the CAB model and have adopted a similar regime in their jurisdictions, albeit some of them under a different name. Our Minister is very proactive in trying to get uniform approaches throughout Europe on asset seizure and forfeiture etc. That is a work in progress. We target all legitimate areas of enterprise where we believe there are tentacles to organised crime.

Senator Martin Conway

I welcome the Commissioner and congratulate him on his reappointment, which is a vindication of the work he has been doing. At the start of his presentation he referred to approximately 25 criminal gangs. Are they primarily based in Dublin or are they peppered throughout the country? There is considerable public discourse about the RTE drama series "Love Hate". Does the Commissioner believe that programme is doing a disservice to the Commissioner and his people, particularly as young people, who are very impressionable, may be attracted into the area of crime by its glamourisation? Does he believe this is not helping his cause?

I am aware that resources are tight. Is the Commissioner happy with the resources that are made available to the Garda cold case unit? Given the demand on resources, is the Garda unable to dedicate the level of resources it would like to re-examining old cases?

Mr. Martin Callinan

These criminal gangs tend to operate in the large urban centres. Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Sligo are the hotbeds for some of these people and the principals that operate within the groups. Beyond that, they have tentacles through social networking, relatives etc. in various counties. Every county in Ireland is represented within these groups, but the central pockets, containing the strategists and tacticians, who formulate the activities of the group, are in the major urban centres.

I have to be very careful here. RTE has been very good to us over many years in terms of helping us.

Senator Martin Conway

I have no doubt.

Mr. Martin Callinan

As some RTE journalists are in the Visitors Gallery, I need to be careful.

Senator Martin Conway

I will put my question another way. Is it helpful for a programme to depict the reality and the level of violence? I am in two minds. It can be helpful in giving the general public an idea of what the Garda is dealing with.

Mr. Martin Callinan

It is an interesting question. I would not like to try to gag RTE because I would fail miserably. What we read and hear about reflects the reality of what is happening on the streets in our towns and cities. We could debate for a long time whether the fictional representation of what is going on is good or bad. I appeal to people who have information about organised crime - or gangland crime as it is referred to in the media - to come forward and help us. We do it on a regular basis when we go in front of television cameras. It is an inescapable fact of life that as we speak about this issue, there are people who could help us to put some of the principals we are discussing behind bars. It is really about going back to where we started in this discussion with people taking ownership of their communities. If we reach that point, we will have a far safer community.

The Senator also asked about resources. Obviously we would all love to have plenty of resources. As Garda Commissioner, I am very conscious of what my duties and responsibilities are. I must balance on the one hand providing an efficient and effective policing service to the country while at the same time working within reduced human and financial resources. That is a constant battle and a constant challenge for all of those appearing before the committee today. At this point I am satisfied that we are able to produce the type of service delivery that we espouse to provide. Next year we will produce a corporate strategy for the next three years. We will also provide a policing plan to service each of these areas for the next three years. I hope the strategy and the policing plan will clearly demonstrate our effort to ensure that we provide and maintain that type of service to the community. Policing will be different from what we would normally expect, but we will still provide that level of assurance. I am confident that will be done with the level of efficiency and effectiveness we have provided in the past - and hopefully we can improve on it.

Senator Martin Conway

Could the Commissioner comment on the cold case unit?

Chairman

We might come back to that at another time. The Commissioner might want to make a very quick comment.

Mr. Martin Callinan

The people in the cold case unit are not confined to doing all the work themselves. When they review a case, they will identify a dozen, two dozen or four dozen issues that might require further clarification or investigation and that is farmed out to the local people who carried out the initial investigation or may be sent elsewhere to pursue those lines of inquiry and report back. So it is wider, with a dedicated unit looking at specific issues but then personnel in the force in general available to it to carry out that work.

Deputy Seán Kenny

I wish to ask about links between gangland crime and paramilitary groups. The funeral of Alan Ryan was already mentioned and Donaghmede is in my constituency. The people in Donaghmede were appalled at what happened at that funeral. Large numbers of people came from outside the area and the area appeared to have been taken over. There was paramilitary style marching, wearing of masks, firing of weapons and black flags on lampposts - things we had not seen for ten years or more. People were just looking on and it appeared that nobody was in charge which appalled many people. Some of the shops were closed and bus services were suspended for half a day - the area was in lockdown. Perhaps the Garda was not prepared for this because it had not happened for so long. It certainly appalled the local people.

Since then, the recent murder of a prison officer in the North seems to be linked to this kind of gangland paramilitary-style war that is going on and there may be a North-South link with this kind of activity. In view of the upsurge in such activity, does the Garda Commissioner have the resources and personnel required to deal with that level of crime?

Mr. Martin Callinan

First, I will deal with the issue of the Ryan funeral. I want to assure Deputy Seán Kenny and everybody present that An Garda Síochána was very much prepared to deal with any eventuality that came our way on that occasion. Professional judgments were made on the day to avoid further injury and perhaps offer to the particular groupings of which the Deputy spoke the high moral ground with a victory based on Garda intervention, that is, use of force. We are very well equipped and we are conscious of the potential for these flash points, and I would dispel any notion to the contrary in case that is what is out there.

On the wider issue, I mentioned already to the committee the level of commitment from An Garda Síochána towards tackling, dismantling and disrupting elements within the dissident groupings. In September alone, we managed to tackle and arrest groupings in the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA - persons were designed on bringing firearms from this jurisdiction into the North for whatever reason, most likely an execution. Those issues have been in the media and I am at liberty to speak about them. What one does not hear about is the amount of unheralded work being done on a 24/7 basis between ourselves, the PSNI and the security service on the far side in terms of the dismantling activities of which I speak, and we have clearly been responsible for saving many lives. It is an absolute priority of ours dealing with these groupings.

As to whether we will ever be on top of them, let us hope we are but we do not always. We have seen that horrible death. Only a couple of weeks ago, I was before the Committee of Public Accounts expressing my condolences to the Black family, in the context of what happened the prison officer. We are working hand in glove with our colleagues in the PSNI. We have made considerable progress in that investigation and we have shared a great deal of information with our colleagues in the PSNI. I would be confident in the coming weeks that we will see further advancement in terms of that investigation. We work very hard with our colleagues to ensure that the type of carnage that has happened in the past, and, indeed, the horrible crimes in more recent times, are eliminated in so far as we possibly can.

Senator Denis O'Donovan

I have a brief question for the Commissioner on what he stated is probably one of the biggest problems facing him as Commissioner and leader of the Garda force, the importation of drugs. Not that he will need reminding of the substantial shipment in Dunlough Bay in west Cork in recent years which, thankfully, was intercepted and the subsequent significant consignment of drugs brought into Castletownbere by way of a yacht from South America which, through surveillance by the Garda and international policing, was apprehended, these substantial amounts of drugs were probably designed for the London or English market, not for local consumption. There was a fear at the time that the south west coast was a gateway for the trafficking of such large amounts of drugs. Is the Commissioner satisfied that the level of co-operation with Interpol, the CIA or FBI and other international agencies is sufficient to monitor and prevent such importation of large amounts of drugs, which were frightening episodes for those living in the constituency I represent? Is the co-operation at a level with which he is happy or should it be better? Are we on top of this trafficking in so far as we can be?

Mr. Martin Callinan

In short, I am. As Senator O'Donovan will be aware, we in An Garda Síochána have liaison officers in a number of capitals in Europe - in the UK, Paris, Lisbon, The Hague, Spain, etc. We work with colleagues. We have our own national office here and we have a similar situation in the context of Interpol. We attend various meetings where all of these strategies are discussed.

In addition, we have local initiatives, such as coastal watch. We have the Customs service and the Naval Service working with us. All of those combined are of great help. MAOC-N is the maritime service looking at intelligence, sharing manifests and looking at patterns. Our analysts look at various elements of shipping. All of those activities coming together provide some assurance that we are capturing in so far as we can all such big shipments. Who knows whether we will ever get on top of it, but we are certainly trying hard, working with our international and European partners, to counteract this type of activity and, as the Senator will be aware, we have had a number of successes.

Chairman

I congratulate the Commissioner on what was reported this morning in the media. Obviously, the Garda has had significant success with the grow houses, which are a relatively new phenomenon. He might like to comment on that as well.

The Commissioner mentioned repeatedly in his presentation that gangland crime seems to be driven by the drugs issue and many colleagues have commented on that here. Can he give us an idea of the kind of Garda successes last year overall in capturing drugs and of the trends over the past number of years? Crystal methamphetamine, which is extremely dangerous, is now coming on the scene. Is there any jurisdiction winning what the Commissioner called this "battle" against the drugs cartels, etc.? Is there any jurisdiction experiencing success in this regard? I note that many countries are putting a great deal of funding into this, and yet it seems ongoing.

Deputy Mac Lochlainn and others mentioned the demographic factors and those in deprived areas being preyed upon. Am I correct in stating that this is no respecter of social class, that those across the board are using these substances? Has the Commissioner any words for those who might be using these substances in the context of fuelling the demand for drugs which leads indirectly to the type of violence and gangland killings that occurred recently in Dublin that prompted this meeting today? Deputy Senator Martin Conway alluded to the fact that RTE is now showing a picture of what is happening, of which, thankfully, many of us have no experience but the Garda members do. The Commissioner might comment on those.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I will take the phenomenon of grow houses and the trends together. It is certainly the case that in the past number of years we have met with increasing levels of grow houses and that continues to be a worry for us. I mentioned in my opening remarks the nexus between some of our ex-patriots in countries such as Spain and The Netherlands teaming up with some organised criminal groups in those countries and providing opportunities for the east-west transiting of drugs and firearms, and that is naturally of particular concern to us. We work hard in getting the type of intelligence that it is required to take these persons to task and bring them to justice.

On the trends within the drugs world, a grow house is a facility that provides a quick turnaround. If one can manage to secure safe lodgings to grow one's plants, within eight weeks one is able to harvest and these plants begin their reproductive cycle.

Unless we catch up with these locations, there is a conveyor belt of money available to organised crime groups. Quite a number of eastern European people are engaged in this activity but it is certainly the case that some indigenous organised crime groups and individuals within them are very much involved also. It is that nexus between these groups that we are examining very closely.

We have seen throughout the harsh economic downturn that the use of cocaine and heroin do not appear to have diminished. Like all facets of crime and illegal activity, one will see dips, hollows and peaks but heroin and cocaine are still a problem for us and we are working to tackle that.

In terms of our success and the success of our international partners, the drugs world, and illicit drug trafficking in particular, is so lucrative that it will remain with us. I do not believe anyone is naive enough to suggest it will go away. It is incumbent on all of us, An Garda Síochána and our partners, to work hard to try to dismantle the operations of the type of people who are involved in this trade. The volume of the seizure of drugs since September of this year have exceeded that for the whole of last year. When one considers what we have done since September and the sizeable seizures, both in quantity and in value, one will realise the extent of the problem we face.

Chairman

Has the Commissioner any intelligence on the amount of drugs being brought in undetected? There is anecdotal talk that a great quantity of drugs are being brought in undetected. Has the Commissioner any evidence of that or any view on that?

Mr. Martin Callinan

I have heard and been privy to those discussions but, in reality, nobody really knows. What we can do and what we are doing is targeting areas where we see a proliferation of drugs. For instance, there is a great deal of discussion and adverse comment about, for example, the centre of the city and the Liffey boardwalk in particular, and the inherent problems people face in their daily lives from people who are addicted to drugs congregating in these areas. Since we set up an operation in June two years ago we have managed to seize in excess of a 250,000 prescription drugs. We have also seized 14,500 - plus scheduled drugs under the Misuse of Drugs Act. There are huge issues involved. This year alone we have searched more than 10,000 people in this area. It is areas such as this that we target at street level and we have secured several convictions. Since this operation started we have brought in excess of 2,500 people before the courts.

Chairman

Are the prescription drugs mainly stolen or how are they acquired by these people?

Mr. Martin Callinan

Usually via the Internet. That is how they are sourced. A small percentage of them would be stolen.

Chairman

They are coming in by post.

Mr. Martin Callinan

They are.

Chairman

We will move on to the next item on the agenda with the Commissioner, that of station closures. I invite the Commissioner to read his statement on this matter and that will be followed by questions from members who have indicated, namely, Deputies Niall Collins, Pádraig Mac Lochlainn and Michael Healy-Rae and Senator O'Donovan.

Mr. Martin Callinan

In the context of station closures, the closure of the 39 stations, approved by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Defence on 5 December 2011 on my recommendations, and reduced opening hours in ten other stations came into effect by quarter two of this year. In regard to further proposed Garda station closures, I wish to reiterate that An Garda Síochána is committed to providing the best possible policing service to the people within the resources available. The national economic climate requires the best possible use of all organisational resources within An Garda Síochána and in line with this we regularly access the organisation's capabilities and the deployment of those resources to provide a policing service. The needs of the community and the ability of the organisation to contribute to public safety, public service and community protection remains the foremost consideration for me as Commissioner of An Garda Síochána.

Local Garda management closely monitors the allocation of all resources in the context of crime trends, policing needs and other operational strategies in place on a district, divisional and regional level to ensure optimum use is made of Garda resources and the best possible service is provided to the public. Senior Garda management is satisfied that a full and comprehensive policing service continues to be delivered and that current structures in place meet the requirement to deliver an effective and efficient policing service to the community. That situation will be kept under constant review.

An Garda Síochána is continuing to conduct analysis of the Garda station network in 2012 to ensure that it achieves efficiencies in the delivery of the policing service to our communities while maintaining operational resilience. Each regional officer at assistant commissioner level is tasked with conducting an impact assessment on the demands placed on each Garda district and station within their region with a view to recommending future efficiencies while maintaining operational resilience. The analysis of the finding is ongoing. The commitment of An Garda Síochána is to maintain operational effectiveness and resilience but in order to achieve this work must be prioritised and hard decisions must be made in that context.

An Garda Síochána can never over-emphasise the importance of the partnership between us and the community in preventing and detecting crime and maintaining a safe environment for everyone and the pledge of An Garda Síochána is to continue to invest time and energy in those partnerships and relationships to the benefit of all. I will stop there.

Chairman

The Commissioner can continue if he wishes as this and the next item are linked.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I agree. It is probably convenient to deal with the two topics. I will move on to speak briefly about effective community policing. When the national model of community policing was launched on 26 January 2009 it was rolled out nationwide. This involved introducing community policing into every Garda district where it did not exist in the first place and to support districts where community policing was already in place.

As no two districts in Ireland are the same, many community policing teams are faced with many challenges. Their aim is to build a support network that covers all aspects of the community, from business to residential. The national model focuses on the development of good practice and case studies of areas which have a firmly established tradition of community policing.

One of the primary tasks of the National Community Policing Office is to ensure that good practice is established, supported and passed on to other Garda community policing units. This is spread through various means such as newsletters, the Garda website, information seminars and meetings. One such initiative of the Garda community policing office has been the production of a quarterly community policing newsletter called Community Times. It is produced in electronic format, is placed on the Garda website and is distributed via Neighbourhood Watch and Community Alert representatives. The newsletter provides a platform for the sharing of good practice and initiatives between community policing teams and allows members of the public to view the initiatives of community policing from around the country and keeps them up to date with current issues on crime prevention, joint policing committees, diversity, Community Alert and Neighbourhood Watch.

Community policing training is currently being delivered by the Garda in-service section of the Garda College on a nationwide basis. This will upskill community gardaí to maximise their efficiency in their day to day duties. The National Community Policing Office keeps community policing resourced through its communications toolkit which is situated on the Garda portal. Through this toolkit community policing can view, download and use practical material such as read-to-go presentations on various community topics, booklets, how-to guides, etc.

During each year the National Community Policing Office supports two Garda Community Safety weeks, otherwise known as Supporting Safer Communities Campaigns, by producing material, guides and briefing material for the weeks set by me to assist community policing during them. These weeks focus on community policing and crime prevention in the community.

The national model of community policing identifies ten key pillars which encompass a shared vision and responsibility to ensure a safer community and a higher quality of life for all. Those ten key pillars are empowerment, Garda-community partnerships, problem solving, crime prevention and reduction, enforcement, accessibility, collaborative engagement, visibility, improved response and accountability.

Chairman

I thank the Commissioner. I call Deputy Niall Collins as he was the first to indicate he wished to speak.

Deputy Niall Collins

It will not come as a surprise to the Commissioner that the closure of Garda stations exercises every community around the country. It is not just a rural issue because there has been an impact in Dublin also. I listened carefully to what the Commissioner said - that it was ultimately a decision of the Minister and Government of the day - but that point has been lost in much of the public debate. It is my understanding that the Commissioner prepares a policing plan and presents it to the Minister and the Government. It can be accepted, amended or rejected, which is the right of the Minister and the Government of the day.

What level and detail of consultation takes place in that regard? It is my experience that there is very little consultation with communities regarding the potential closure of Garda stations and those that would be potentially - although I hate to use the word - targeted for closure. Such decisions are of concern to communities. I sit on a joint policing committee, or JPC, in Limerick County Council. As public representatives, however, we do not have any input into Garda station closures. It is of huge concern to me and those whom I represent.

Does the Commissioner appreciate the negative impact of such closures, given the policing effect his force can bring to these communities? The low number of reported crimes registered in particular Garda station areas is often used to substantiate closure decisions. I would turn the argument around, however, and say that the presence of a Garda station acts as a deterrent and that is why there may be a low level of reported crime.

Chairman

Does the Deputy want answers to those questions first?

Deputy Niall Collins

No. They are all linked in.

Chairman

All right.

Deputy Niall Collins

As regards the Commissioner's proposals for 2013, can he indicate what he will present in his draft plan to the Minister for his consideration? Communities would appreciate knowing whether the Commissioner presents options to the Minister. Is it a "Take it or leave it" job, or does the Commissioner present the Minister of the day with a number of options? In other words, does he say that we could close X number of Garda stations in all these locations or, alternatively, we could do something else instead of introducing that measure? It would be helpful to inform the debate we are having on this matter. Operational decisions are entirely within the Commissioner's remit but we are entitled to be consulted. Communities currently feel disconnected from the consultation process.

Chairman

I have identified four questions: consultation with the local community; policing effects before and after; plans for the future, including next year; and whether or not the Commissioner presents options to the Minister.

Mr. Martin Callinan

In the context of station closures, the first thing I should say is that we in An Garda Síochána are absolutely alive to the sensitivity that surrounds this issue. We have had over 700 Garda stations nationally. All of us in the room are familiar with some of those Garda stations and what they represent to communities on the one hand and, thereafter, how effective these buildings would be. The whole idea behind some of these closures is not a cost-saving exercise. Having said that, however, there is no doubt that there will be savings. I have mentioned here previously, and to the Committee of Public Accounts in the past, that the figures seem to run somewhere between €2,500 and €4,000 per annum to maintain these buildings. Quite a number of them are in a poor state of repair.

In setting about doing our work, we examine the demographic and the area that has to be policed. We look at the footfall to the station, the level of crimes committed in the area and what is reported. Generally speaking, assistant commissioners, through their teams in these areas, provide a critical analysis of those stations and what they represent within communities.

When a situation arose that we would have less money and resources, it was clear to me that we had to provide a policing plan and model that would suit our circumstances. In particular, the new roster is an example of how clustering arrangements need to be brought into being. We are faced with perhaps one or two people working certain hours in a particular Garda station, or bringing them into a centre where they could team up with colleagues and provide a much more mobile and flexible policing service. Therefore the idea behind the new arrangements, in cases where we are closing stations, will be to provide a service that was in place heretofore. Beyond that, we will provide the type of efficiency that we have been speaking about.

It is clearly the case that there are groups of criminals travelling the length and breadth of this country, usually late at night and early in the morning, carrying out all sorts of crimes - particularly burglary and aggravated burglary, both residential and commercial. One will not solve those crimes or dismantle those groups within the bricks and mortar of a building. Active policemen and women are needed out there, working with their colleagues and being effective. They work through intelligence and crime trends to tackle these problems. That is why the recommendations I will be making to the Minister very shortly, in the context of future station closures, will incorporate all of these aspects.

We have not gone out to the community because, I dare say, no community in Ireland would agree to a station closing in its locality. I am providing for the Minister the collateral, reasoning and logic behind decisions that formed the recommendations to close these stations. I am indicating the type of effectiveness that can flow from reducing some of these stations and redeploying some of the personnel - not in all cases but in some - and at the same time providing the public in these areas with the reassurance that we are actually providing a policing service. We have not pulled down the shutters on that building and walked away from those communities. I know there is a big debate out there. There are major concerns and rightly so. If I was in those communities I have no doubt I would be banging on public representatives' doors to ask what they are doing to stop this. However, this is the reality of life that we are faced with. We have a very large number of Garda stations. We do not see a number of them being critical to our requirements with the new policing model that we are putting in place. That is the reasoning behind recommendations to close some of these stations.

There will certainly be dialogue and discussion at joint policing committees in areas where stations have closed. Those debates will continue long after the decision is made on how we are going to implement that service. The Deputy and his constituents will be provided with the type of reassurance to satisfy them that, while they may not absolutely agree with what is going on, I think they will have a certain reassurance that we are doing our best to ensure that there is a better service out there by providing the type of availability and flexibility within the confines of the working tours, aimed at tackling the problems of that area, whether they are crime, public order or other issues. That is the reasoning behind the station closures.

Deputy Niall Collins

To tie up some loose ends in that regard, it is important to bear in mind that many of these are part-time Garda stations, so to speak, and the members of the public do not buy into the notion that in leaving a Garda station open the Commissioner is committing resources to manning the station. The effect on the ground is that these are part-time stations open for a limited number of hours per week. It is important to impress upon the Commissioner that this impacts on many communities, particularly on rural communities by virtue of the dispersal of population across the country. The comparisons to Scotland cited are not valid because of the demographic spread but a point I must air is that people believe there is a withdrawal of services from rural communities. People appreciate that a garda sitting behind a desk may be better deployed out on the beat, and that is accepted by all of us, but unfortunately we have seen in other areas of the public service, not just in this area, a withdrawal of services into larger towns and villages and that is a serious concern to rural Ireland. The Commissioner put his finger on it in terms of the cost because the buildings are owned by the Office of Public Works and effectively what he is left with is a day-to-day running cost which does not register on the financial scale in terms of the issues being discussed in this committee regarding the wider economy. We want to impress upon the Commissioner that it is a policy which the public does not like or agree with and it is my job to bring that to his attention. Many of the members of the Commissioner's force do not agree with it either. I referred earlier to consultation with communities but some of the members of the force believe they have not been consulted. That was brought to my attention and I was asked to bring it to the Commissioner's attention which I am doing now. In that regard, consultation is key to this process.

We had a discussion recently at our joint policing committee, JPC, on the potential redrawing of the districts within the Limerick division, which I am just using as an example, which concerns people. There is talk in Limerick of the Askeaton division, for example, being subsumed into the neighbouring divisions and I am sure that is being examined in other areas of the country. Issues such as those must be aired at JPC level in each authority in a manner which will help inform public representatives and communities as to the rationale. Most of us live in the real world in terms of the way the Commissioner must make ends meet, and we appreciate the constraints he is under, but in terms of the part-time stations that is having an impact on communities. The mere presence of a garda in the station gives people a sense of security and comfort in terms of the threats posed to those communities.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thank the Deputy. I want to assure him that there will be no withdrawal of services on my watch and anyone who says differently is very much misinformed.

I have already dealt with consultation with the public but in the context of our own members, my clear strategy from the outset, from my office at the centre down onto the ground, was to ask chief superintendents and superintendents in divisions and districts to talk to their members and come up with a list of stations they deemed suitable for recommendation for closure. It is those lists and the collateral that I explained already for forming those recommendations that came back to me and the central committee examining that matter.

I have heard previously about people not being informed internally. As far as I am concerned, I can only send the word down the line and I expect that that dialogue and discussion went on. I know for a fact that in some cases but not in all - I cannot be everywhere but I have made it my business to inquire - some of the representatives on associations locally were consulted as part of the process bringing that back up to me. It would be folly in the extreme for me as Commissioner to sit down and look at the list of about 700 Garda stations, tick off areas and say that this can go or that can go. One cannot do that. One must have a rationale for making the type of decisions we have made and as far as I am concerned, that is what has been happening. We are very close to finalising those recommendations and they will be with the Minister shortly.

I have heard the stories the Deputy has heard but I want to assure him that no one will be blind-sided on any of this but there is a difference between making hard, cold decisions given the harsh economic realities facing us and having the type of discussion that has been spoken about. Where this whole process will be critical is when the decision is made to sit down with the communities and the JPCs and to provide the level of reassurance I spoke about earlier. However, I assure the Deputy that where stations have been opened for an hour or two on whatever day and whatever the services provided, that will continue in some form. The station may not be there but we intend to go back to the community, whether it is the post office, a community hall or wherever, and provide that type of service for that period of time on those designated days and beyond that providing the type of visibility I have espoused earlier to be effective and to try to police those areas. It is not the case that we are abandoning anyone. I assure the Deputy that will never occur.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

The Commissioner will be aware there is considerable concern about the station closures and the resources available to the Garda Síochána, most notably from the Garda Representative Association which represents the overwhelming majority of gardaí on the ground. We all know and respect gardaí in our community. We have conversations with them and they are concerned about resources available but our responsibility as parliamentarians, particularly in this committee, is to try to ensure that the gardaí on the ground have the resources required to protect us and to do their job.

The former assistant Commissioner, Martin Donlan, wrote an article recently in The Sunday Business Post and with his vast experience described the unique situation in Ireland where there has been a strong relationship between local communities and the Garda Síochána over the years. The statistics published not long ago on levels of crime reported to a Garda station indicated that they were quite low across many rural areas. That reflects the strength of that relationship in terms of having gardaí embedded in communities and having the intelligence required to deal with crime. There is a concern about that becoming a mobile facility centralised in a larger town where people are travelling around that might be lost. How would the Commissioner address those concerns?

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thought I had already done that but to recap, it will never be the situation that we intend to lose contact with the community. In areas where gardaí were located we will still have points of contact to make sure the policing service we provide will be maintained. That is key. It is indispensable to the service we provide. We are of the community and with the community and that will always be the case.

The Deputy is referring to gardaí operating locally and hearing things. I hope the type of interaction we have had with the public continues. We are involved at every level in sports clubs, communities and voluntary bodies over and above our daily work, and that will continue. We need to address people travelling around the country committing crimes. We need to tackle these people and provide a safer community by doing that. It is not always possible in the context of the current system we are operating. Smarter policing includes intelligence-led operations and pin-mapping where crimes occur. There must be resources available to deal with the situation. We will not always have a garda or two in a particular station at particular times. Criminals have become more mobile and I and others have referred to increased efficiency with transport and communications. The criminal fraternity is adept at taking full advantage. This is about providing an effective policing service. We are at one with the Deputy in respect of the matters he raised as a public representative. We are alive to the issues and there is no one with greater concern about how the Garda Síochána is run than me and my senior colleagues.

We will always have issues, tension and discussions or arguments between management and associations. Why would it be any other way? We cannot always agree to have the associations sitting beside us when we are dealing with serious decisions affecting how we do our business. Once the decisions are made, we are certainly obliged to sit down with the associations and work out the niceties of how we will implement the decisions. That is where the dialogue, discussion and argument commences. We will run that in parallel with the discussions with the communities where the stations are closing.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

The difficulty is that the Minister and the Government of the day allocate a budget to the Commissioner and tells him to make the most of it. The Commissioner must adapt and present a plan based on the budget. The Commissioner, the deputy commissioner and the assistant commissioners present have a responsibility to present to various people that the Garda Síochána has the capacity to respond to crime and protect our communities. I fully respect that but the problem is the Garda Representative Association, representing a huge proportion of the gardaí we meet, is telling us that resources are depleted and that gardaí do not have the capacity they used to have to respond to crime. I am sure the Commissioner has heard the stories and we have heard the evidence of it across counties. When the Garda Representative Association speaks to its counterparts in Britain, which has also undergone the process of closing down stations, they report back that it has not worked in Britain and that the police force there has lost contact with the communities and has lost the special relationship between the local constable and the areas. Would the Commissioner be implementing these changes in rosters, which are referred to as smart policing, and doing everything he has done if he did not face cutbacks to his budget?

Mr. Martin Callinan

It is somewhat hypothetical but I take the Deputy's point on matching a policing service to the criteria of the day, of which crime is foremost in people's mind, even though other issues include traffic, saving lives, immigration services and the other policing disciplines we are involved in. The public wants to see a reduction in crime and an elimination if at all possible. To respond to crime and crime levels, we must have a very effective regime in place, and I and my command see the need to put certain initiatives in place. What we are seeing, in the context of more station closures, seeks to address the issue. In short, I would recommend the closure of stations and a different policing model because we must move on. The Deputy's comments are correct in respect of the local garda listening and hearing things. What about the high end of the business and obtaining high-grade intelligence to help to identify the people from Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway who are coming into local areas and frightening people in their beds at night and creating mayhem in the commercial world by carrying out burglaries and robberies? There is a balance to be struck and that is what we are trying to achieve by providing the effective policing we are espousing.

Senator Denis O'Donovan

This is of serious concern to me as someone representing a rural area. To illustrate the concern communities feel, four members of the public are in the Gallery. They will not speak or contribute but they will listen to what is being said. One of them got up at 2.30 this morning in Goleen to travel to Cork to get an early train to Dublin. They are community activists in places such as Kealkill, Goleen and Kilbrittain, and their concern illustrates what is going on in rural communities.

The Commissioner said his foremost thrust is to reduce crime and, if possible, eliminate it. That may be utopian and is perhaps not achievable. I refer to the closure of Garda stations on the Mizen Peninsula and the closure of banks. Although the latter is not an issue for the Commissioner, when banks are closed, old people are inclined to keep money in houses and criminals are aware of it. I am not being parochial but five or six rural courthouses have been closed in west Cork. Gardaí in Castletownbere station must go to Bandon or Cork city to deal with a criminal charge. People are being dragged out of the community. Was a cost benefit analysis done on the value of closing rural stations? The evidence of closing rural stations in England and Wales is well documented and shows that crime doubles. It may not involve gangland crime, which we are talking about, but my concern is that the saving of €3,000 per year in keeping a small station open, such as Goleen or Kilbrittain, is small change with regard to having a community that is concerned and alarmed, according to the impression I get. This will not go away because there is a belief in rural Ireland that the small hospital, the Garda station and the local bank being closed will attract criminals to an area where policing is less visible.

I am very concerned about developments in the past 20 years with regard to gardaí embedded in communities. Having emigrated in my younger days, I returned to west Cork in 1981. I knew every garda in the town and they all lived in the town. I am concerned that gardaí come to a village or town but no longer live in the community. Dunmanway, with six or seven gardaí and one or two sergeants, is an example where none of them lives in the town.

It is reassuring to a local community if the local garda plays a bit of football or hurling and is seen walking the streets and people know where he lives and where to contact him. I know that it may not be directly related but it is a concern. There are approximately 30 gardaí in my home town of Bantry. Probably 20 of them arrive in the morning but go home at night to Kerry or another part of Cork. That is not a good development. I appreciate people have links to other towns. As far as possible, if a garda is assigned to a district, he or she should live in, and be active in, that community. That is real community policing.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I agree with a considerable portion of what Senator O'Donovan said. In an ideal world, if people were living in their district, in particular in the rural communities about which he spoke, we would see the benefits of that. However, over time circumstances have dictated that people have to move to different areas for whatever reason and we have to try to facilitate people with transfers close to their homes and so on. That is a challenge for us and an industrial relations issue. As I said, everything we do is oriented towards the community. We do not intend to lose contact with the community in those areas. That will always be our stated position. We will try to do whatever is necessary to ensure we do not lose that type of contact.

Senator Denis O'Donovan

The public relations battle by the Garda - I have great respect for the force and some people very close to me are members of it - as far as rural Ireland is concerned is being lost. Whether that can be attributed to the Garda, at Commissioner level, or to the Minister, at political level, maybe the Minister should take greater cognisance of what is happening. That is the feeling I am getting and I do not think it will go away.

I am being parochial again but would it not be feasible in the Mizen Peninsula, for example, to have a garda living and stationed there who could cover two or three stations? He could spend the morning in one station and the afternoon in another, or whatever. Could that be looked at because most of the rural Garda stations, which I visited in my capacity as a solicitor in a former life, are in good nick? In most cases, the accommodation quarters are excellent. I am concerned about the cost-benefit analysis and whether the Minister, at political level, should do this. If so, he should outline it to the people affected. I do not think it adds up from a financial perspective.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I explained earlier that cost has never been the criteria for closing stations. While there is an element of savings, it was never the criteria for doing it. It is all about providing the service I have spoken about. That is really where we are with all of these issues. It is the case in these stations in which one or two members work that they have been teaming up with others. In a sense, we are not changing the furniture all that much. It is about the service, and I keeping saying that. It is about providing the service rather than buildings. I cannot go beyond that.

Senator Denis O'Donovan

I am very sceptical. The Commissioner should not take it personally.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I never do.

Senator Katherine Zappone

I welcome the Commissioner and members of his senior team and thank him for his presentation. I have a couple of questions about the community policing area. As he will be aware, LGB issues form an official part of his community policing remit. My first question relates to his diversity strategy and implementation plan which will conclude this year. It contained a commitment to develop and implement a Garda Síochána LGB policy. Will the Commissioner update us on the progress made in regard to that project? Are there any plans in the context of that project to address issues facing transgender members of the force within this project or any other policy?

Chairman

If the Commissioner is not prepared for that question now and would like to come back to us with a briefing note with more detail, we would be happy to facilitate that.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I will give a very brief response. I did not go into this in any great detail but as Senator Zappone will be aware, we had the sixth European LGB conference in Dublin Castle some months ago and I spoke at that, as did the Minister. We articulated our views very clearly in terms of the expectation from within and how management and colleagues should view people's orientations. As the Senator knows, we are apolitical and that includes respecting people's right to practice whatever religion, etc., they wish. We have rules and regulations, as one would expect, and there are ethical standards we are required to meet but given from where we have come, no more than any other organisation, we are learning and becoming more responsive and more aware of issues that surround these issues and, in that way, becoming more facilitating in terms of people's expectations.

There have been cases, as I am sure the Senator is aware, where we have had to take disciplinary measures against people who have crossed the line. It is a work in progress and we respect people's rights at all levels and all values beyond those parameters of ensuring there are standards in place to which we have to adhere as police men and women.

Senator Katherine Zappone

I thank the Commissioner. As he said, it is a work in progress. I would like to make a recommendation or a suggestion that he would consider including the issue of transgender members in the context of his upcoming plans.

My second question relates to the incident at last year's Dublin pride where LGB members of the force were denied permission to march in uniform alongside uniformed members of other police forces from across Europe. Will the Commissioner provide us with some of the reasons for denying permission to members of An Garda Síochána, especially when there have been other times when off-duty members of the force were given permission to wear their uniforms - for example, at the New York St. Patrick's Day parade or escorting the remains of St. Thérèse of Lisieux? The issue here is particularly important in regard to community policing when we consider the need to improve the level of trust between the Garda Síochána and the LGBT community. Seeing LGB members of the Garda Síochána marching in uniform at Dublin pride would have undoubtedly been a powerful signal to the community that it could place its trust in the Garda. As the Commissioner said a number of times throughout his presentation, the community is at the heart of everything it does.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thank the Senator. I think we have to make a distinction here between what was happening at the conference, which was being hosted in Dublin Castle, and what was happening on the march. Clearly, I gave permission for my members to wear their uniforms at the conference, and rightly so. As the Senator is aware, our President hosted a reception and our members joined with colleagues in Áras an Uachtaráin in sharing in the President's hospitality. The conference was over on the Friday and the march did not start until the Saturday. I mentioned in my last point, before we got on to this subject, that An Garda Síochána is apolitical and members of An Garda Síochána on duty and in uniform police these parades. Regardless of how peaceful they are, there is a requirement in regard to the safety of the public and of the marchers and there are perhaps public order issues in terms of people who may not share the same views as some of the participants.

All parades require a policing presence. How would it be if members of the Force in full uniform are marching and taking part in that parade and the Garda who are charged with responsibility for law and order are walking alongside? Straight away, there is confusion and issues will arise. That is not something I was prepared to accept at that point. That is the distinction I make between those two events.

Senator Katherine Zappone

I appreciate from his perspective, the Commissioner's suggestion that it may produce confusion. I suppose I am offering a view in light of the importance of the symbol that members of the force could have provided in terms of supporting the development of increasing trust between the Garda and the gay and lesbian members of the community.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I think I expressed my support for the conference very clearly and publicly by members of the force wearing their uniforms at the conference and at the official reception hosted by the President. The Senator may have a different view.

Chairman

I ask Deputy Healy-Rae to be brief, as we are up against the clock.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I will be the same as everybody else.

Chairman

Of course, Deputy. The Deputy is welcome.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I welcome the Commissioner and his colleagues. I thank them for the excellent work they do. I acknowledge the great work every day of the week of rank and file gardaí up and down the country.

I have listened very carefully to the argument put by the Commissioner for the closure of Garda stations. He has contradicted himself a number of times today. He states that this is not about saving money but ensuring better policing on the ground. He states also that there will be no withdrawal of services whatsoever, that if a community has a Garda coming into the station for a certain number of hours a day and the community at large are aware that the Garda will be at the station on a Tuesday and Friday for so many hours. The Commissioner states he will not take away that service.

I have heard the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, discuss this issue also. I thank the Commissioner for being more forthright than the Minister has been but the Commissioner states the Garda will be in community centres, in the post office. The Minister stated they will be in the back of Garda vans. Will the Commissioner explain how that will save money? Why shut down the station in the first instance? We are talking about small stations, predominantly one and two bedroom units. If they are for sale, nobody will buy them. One cannot walk away and let them fall into disrepair because the local authority will take action under the Derelict Sites Acts. The buildings must be painted, the electricity will be left on because the majority of the buildings have electric heating and the heating must be kept on for so many hours a day. The stations will also have to be maintained. Will we save money? Why are we shutting down the station in the first instance?

The Commissioner has not given me a practical, sensible answer on the good of taking a garda out of the station and putting him in a community centre. The Minister went so far as to say it would be good for the community because the Department will pay rent to those running the community centres. It is crazy to move the garda from the Garda station into the community centre or worse into the back of a Garda van and the people are going to come-----

Chairman

I think the Deputy has made his point.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I have more questions. That is one question.

Chairman

The Deputy has made a very interesting point. The Commissioner will respond to it and then the Deputy can come back in with his next question.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

If that is the way the Chairman wants to conduct the matter, that is fine. This point is tied into the same question. The Commissioner has stated the reason is about being out and about and seeing what is happening. If gardaí spend the same hours in the community centre as they spent in the Garda station, where is the sense of that? When it comes to better policing on the ground, the Commissioner asserts they will be out after the criminal but in many cases they will be walking after the criminals because they have no Garda car. The Minister is constantly stating they will be out and about. They will be walking after the criminals.

Chairman

Will the Deputy allow the Commissioner to answer the questions?

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I will.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I am sorry if what I am saying does not make sense to the Deputy, but to me and my senior officers it does make sense. We are the people who have the responsibility of providing the type of policing service we espouse to provide. We are really going over old ground.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Can the Commissioner sell the concept better? Can he explain it properly to me?

Chairman

I will call the Deputy shortly. Please let the Commissioner respond.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thought I was quite clear in terms of what I said we were setting out to do, and that it was not about cost savings. The Deputy is entitled to hold his view, but I am also entitled to provide my view to the Minister who is our boss. It is the individual and collective view of my senior command that certain stations would be better closed in terms of the service we can provide. The Deputy referred to the fact that the Garda might be in the community centre, the post officer or the back of a van. It is about visibility in those area where stations are closing at those times to provide that type of continuity of service. It is precisely the converse of the point the Deputy makes, that we are trying to achieve at those particular times and those dates. Thereafter it is about providing the type of effective policing that I have been talking about. I cannot put it any plainer than that.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

People have built up relationships with member of the Garda Síochána through the neighbourhood watch scheme. There is a relationship based on trust. The Commissioner knows the local garda cannot be inside every shop, or minding elderly people who live in estates. The people watching out will contact their local garda and state their suspicions. By removing the garda from the station, is this not a kick in the teeth for the community because the message from the senior garda is that they do not think the station is important or that link with the community is important, so we will close down the station. It is very interesting that the Commissioner stated three times that this is not about saving money but about better policing and a presence. Is the garda in the station not a presence in the community? What sort of message is being sent out to the criminals around the country by closing down the stations, if it is not saving money? The Commissioner mentioned his budget. We all appreciate that he is working under a constrained budget, but if he were to tell the committee that closing down 19 stations would save some millions of euros, that would be a point. However, he is not saying that. The Commissioner has not answered the question on how this will lead to better policing.

The Commissioner stated that he would not like to try to gag RTE. This is a very important issue. Rank and file garda throughout the country are very upset at what is being proposed. I put this to the Minister and he did not give a clear answer and I would like to put the same question to the Commissioner. Have rank and file garda throughout the country been ordered not to talk about the closure of Garda stations? Have they been asked not to make representations about problems they see arising from the closure of the stations? Have they been instructed that their extended families are not to raise this issue, not even with their public representatives?

Any member of the Garda Síochána should be entitled, the same as any other person, to make representations to its local representatives, be they local or national representatives. If it is the case that the Garda is gagged on such an important issue, that would be outrageous. They should be entitled to their viewpoint the same as everybody else. The Garda Commissioner said he wanted to hear from the ground up and that he had sent that message. If that is happening on the one hand, who gagged them on the other hand and told them not to raise the issue?

Chairman

I call the Commissioner to respond.

Mr. Martin Callinan

Perhaps I can deal with the Deputy's first point. Let us forget about what I am not saying, as the Deputy has adverted to. I have said on a number of occasions - the Deputy has quoted me three times - that what I am talking about in the context of station closures is providing a more effective policing service. I have said it again and I will continue to say it. The Deputy speaks about communities losing contact with the Garda. That will not happen. He also speaks about joint policing committees and community policing. All of that will be left intact. That is a given; that will happen. As I said, we are not pulling down shutters and walking away. We will not abandon any community. The arrangements that have been in place locally in terms of contact with the police will be replicated. That is going to happen. What I am trying to articulate here - I am not making a good job of it by all accounts - is that the police-----

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

That is not-----

Mr. Martin Callinan

That is the Deputy's view. I have a view and I have expressed it on more than one occasion. It is not about bricks and mortar; it is about the Garda, the men and women of An Garda Síochána under my command, doing their job and doing it effectively. I accept all the sensitivities within the context of the Garda sign coming down off a building. The relationships that exist will always continue; there is no question about that.

The other issue the Deputy raised was about representation. As he is aware, a High Court case is pending. Therefore, it would not be prudent for me, as someone who has to respond, to go into that case in any shape or form today. An instruction has been issued, as the Deputy is aware, given that he has raised it. The detail of what he has related is not quite accurate, but that is something I have to deal with in the High Court very soon. As the Deputy will appreciate, it would not be appropriate for me to say anything further.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Chairman-----

Chairman

The Deputy has had a good run.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Can the Commissioner tell me what part of my contribution was not accurate?

Mr. Martin Callinan

With respect, I have to deal with this issue very soon in the High Court. Therefore, the Deputy will appreciate that I should not-----

Chairman

We are bound by that.

Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy

Has the Commissioner had the opportunity to examine the crime figures in the past year, particularly since the closure of the Garda stations, the new rostering arrangements were put in place and the coming into being of operations such as Operation Obair, and compare those figures with last year to see what impact the new arrangements have made?

Mr. Martin Callinan

I am very happy to report that the policing service we have provided has proved to be quite effective. Many of the stations in rural areas have been closed for many years and it has not significantly affected how we do our business in those areas. People have highlighted issues to me. We are aware of them and the views within the community in terms of how they affect people's sense of well-being. We are alive to all that. What we want to do is put in place an effective policing service to try to dispel any notion that we are abandoning people. That is not the case, nor will it be the case. We will provide, I hope, a better policing service.

Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy

The reason I asked the question is that at a recent joint policing committee in Offaly, the chief superintendent there outlined how crime figures had fallen, and I wonder if this is replicated throughout the rest of the country.

Mr. Martin Callinan

Crime is falling in the majority of crime designations. Similarly, public order, criminal damage, assaults and so on are going in the right direction. The issue in the context of crime and crime trends is burglaries, which have been the bane of our life for many years. The Central Statistics Office groups categories of crime. It works slightly differently from us, although we provide the figures. In the area of property crime, there are burglaries, robberies, aggravated burglaries and thefts generally. They are the crime disciplines we deal with that are grouped together under property crime. This year, so far, we have managed to halt the graph which has been steadily rising since 2007, and we are 0.4% down on last year. Operation Fiacla has been responsible for a great deal of the success given that burglaries occupy the lion's share of that property grouping. It is a work in progress. We are working hard to reduce the level of crime in those areas. I think the regime in place and the strategies and tactics being employed in targeting these people and in pin-mapping where the crimes are committed are working well.

Deputy Niall Collins

I want to ask a couple of questions on community policing. The issue of the personnel resource available to the Commissioner directly affects community policing. Some time ago Garda strength was approximately 14,500, but as of June 2012 the latest official figure was 13,500. Allied to that is the embargo on recruitment into and training in the force. What is the optimum number for the force and can the Commissioner give the committee an insight on the impact of the embargo on recruitment? To provide some context, there was much public disquiet at a recent recruitment campaign for the Defence Forces. People asked how there can be a recruitment campaign for the Defence Forces and not for the Garda Síochána? That is a legitimate question. Perhaps the Commissioner can give an overview on that issue.

On the issue of community policing, the Commissioner mentioned burglaries, which have increased by more than 10% in the past 12 months. The statistic for thefts against the person was quite staggering, being in the order of 43%. I hate to describe this as low level crime but it involves both the theft of handbags and mobile telephones and muggings. An increase of 43% is extraordinary. That feeds into the impact on the community and links back to the number of personnel on the street.

The thefts from shops prevention and reduction strategy was launched in 2011. It is a good strategy. It focuses on retailers who are the victims of thefts from shops and which thefts have a huge impact on business. Perhaps the Commissioner would comment on the roll-out of the strategy and give his assessment of it as I am sure it is monitored on an ongoing basis.

Mr. Martin Callinan

To deal with the impact of the embargo on recruitment, obviously we would like if that was changed, given the lead-in time of two years in terms of bringing a person in the Garda Síochána to the point where he or she can serve on probation. There is a lead-in time before people are effective and on the street.

When one takes that in the context of a reducing attrition rate at the other end, it puts a strain on numbers. So far, we have been managing to provide a service that we have always been providing. That said, I would not like to see levels drop much beyond the 13,000 mark, which is what the Government has asked us to achieve. I say that because with the type of demands that are now placed on us to be in compliance with the new Working Time Directive, which was the catalyst for the new rostering arrangement and the clustering of resources, there is a requirement to have a cadre of personnel who are available to work longer hours, and more efficiency and, as we have been speaking about, more effectiveness.

There is no scientific model that ordains a certain number of officers need to be available to service a certain cadre of the community. It is very much unscientific. It is about having the facility to move one's resources in a effective manner to deal with whatever issues are facing you at any given time and that is what we are trying to do. That is why we have the type of flexibility within the new rostering arrangements where we can have up to 25% more personnel available on the street to do the type of work that they are required to do at the times required. That has been a strong aspect of the Croke Park arrangement to which An Garda Síochána has contributed. For over 40 years we have been grasping with this matter in terms of providing sufficient levels to service the community and we think we have now found a model that is suitable and will achieve that purpose, and we have been speaking about all of the issues that surrounding it. We will work hard to ensure that it works, in conjunction with the staffing associations. A couple of weeks ago, when I was here at the Committee of Public Accounts, I praised the associations for the level of commitment to the negotiations and putting in place that type of rostering regime that will help us in achieving the efficiencies that we are setting out to achieve with reduced numbers. Did Deputy Niall Collins mention another point?

Deputy Niall Collins

Yes. Before the Garda Commissioner moves off from that, it is fair to say from what he is saying about the two-year lead-in period, that one will see the force dip below a figure of 13,000. The figure was 13,500 last June and it will probably have dropped more since then. Surely the Commissioner is conducting forecasting of human resources and he will have the profile of the force. To what is the figure likely to drop? Supposing recruitment and training was to commence on 1 January next year involving a two-year lead-in, what would the figure drop to before the two-year lead-in period expires based the profile of expected retirements?

Mr. Martin Callinan

It is clear we will not make the Government deadline of 13,000 at the end of the year. As of last week, the force was at 13,472. There will not be that type of an attrition rate between now and the end of the year. Looking forward, it has always been the case that, between the years of service and the age dynamic, and the gap between the opportunity to retire at 50 plus with 30 years service and the compulsory retirement age at 60, there is a cadre of gardaí within that bracket. That is something that is optional. It is a dynamic about which one is not entirely clear. There are approximately 1,200 in that category who could go but it is unlikely that they will. It is something which we are keeping an eye on. I made the comment that I would like to see us not go below 13,000, and that is as much as I can say.

On the other issue Deputy Niall Collins raised of the strategy with the businesses, we are trying hard with the business community, particularly in the large urban areas, at working at a solution to reduce theft from shops. As the Deputy will be aware, we have a strong working relationship with the business communities here in the city of Dublin. That is replicated in Cork, Galway and other large urban centres. The Deputy will have seen the advent of the Segways sponsored by the business community as an example of the type of relationship and appreciation evident on both sides. It is about being professional. Repeat offenders are an issue and it is about how one deals with them. It is about providing the necessary security and taking steps - crime prevention measures - to ensure that one stops the type of repeat offending. All of those matters come into the dynamic.

Chairman

I will take a brief question from Deputy Corcoran Kennedy and from Deputy Mac Lochlainn. I will take the two together just as quickly as they can because the time is running away from us.

Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy

Is the Garda Reserve being used to its full potential? Should it, perhaps, have increased powers?

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

How is the Commissioner progressing with the civilianisation of many of the administrative functions of An Garda Síochána that would, in turn, free up gardaí to be out on the beat and in the community? Can he supply to the committee - I do not presume he will have it off the top of his head - the numbers of dedicated community police officers over the past five years? What is the position? Have we more or fewer? I ask that statistics on that be provided to the committee.

Mr. Martin Callinan

That is something we can research and provide for Deputy Mac Lochlainn.

On the issue of the reserve, we are constantly reviewing their powers. I am in discussion with the Minister and the Department on that. As Deputy Corcoran Kennedy will be aware, we have increased their powers incrementally over time. Now they are looking at all of the following: road traffic matters, assisting in arrests and public order issues. That is a work in progress. There probably is more room for such assisting. They are working well. Despite all of the issues that we had initially in the bedding down process, they are well received and, generally, are well respected. Certainly, from a management perspective, we are delighted to have them.

In the context of civilianisation Deputy Mac Lochlainn, we have - in terms of the senior command posts - all but two, and they are being advertised soon. Thereafter, we are caught with the moratorium on recruitment. One in three is the ratio. In most policing services, there is a greater ratio of one in six or seven. We have approximately 2,070 civilian support staff. We would like to increase that number but at present we do not see much potential. Much of the discussion is around swapping staff from one department to another and all of those areas are being looked at. Certainly, I will take help from wherever I get it.

Chairman

I thank the Commissioner and his team for coming in here today and for spending so much time with us. He can see how exercised members are. We really appreciate his time, candour, answers and information. It is helpful to us. I note there were many members of the press here as well taking a keen interest in what was going on because what the Garda does is considerable national interest.

As I stated here previously, and I am sure I speak for all members, we fully support the work of the Garda Síochána throughout the State.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thank the Chairman.

Chairman

As a committee, we want to be as supportive and helpful as possible in the work the Garda does. We pass our good wishes on to all Garda members because we are aware that the work they do, often in dangerous and difficult circumstances late at night putting their lives on the line for the people, and we greatly appreciate that.

There may be other issues that we may invite the Commissioner to come to us to discuss in future meetings. There are some sensitive issues we may even discuss with him in private session. I thank the Commissioner for being here and I wish him and the Garda well in the foreseeable future.

Mr. Martin Callinan

I thank the Chairman for his remarks. As I stated in my opening remarks, I am delighted to have had the opportunity to come to discuss these important issues with the committee. I thank the Chairman and his committee colleagues for the questions and the discussion.

Sitting suspended at 12.30 p.m. and resumed at 2 p.m.