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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS debate -
Tuesday, 28 Jan 2003

Vol. 1 No. 9

Equality Authority: Presentation.

I extend a warm welcome to the representatives from the Equality Authority who will outline their strategic plan for 2003 to 2005 which was launched only yesterday. The chairperson of the Equality Authority, Ms Kate Hayes, has a long-standing acquaintance with this committee, particularly in relation to women's rights issues. She is accompanied by Mr. Niall Crowley, the chief executive officer of the authority. Copies of the strategic plan of the authority have been circulated to members of the joint committee.

I draw the attention of Ms Hayes and Mr. Crowley to the fact that, while members of the committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses. I invite Ms Hayes to begin.

Ms Kate Hayes

I welcome this opportunity to brief the joint committee on the work and future plans of the Equality Authority. We have a very broad mandate to promote equality of opportunity and to combat discrimination in the areas covered by the Employment Equality Act 1998 and the Equal Status Act 2000. The 1998 Act prohibits discrimination in the workplace and the Act of 2000 prohibits discrimination in the provision of goods and services, accommodation and education and makes special provision for registered clubs. This very broad legislation is unique, in an Irish context, for its coverage of nine grounds - gender, marital status, family status, age, disability, sexual orientation, race, religion and membership of the Traveller community. The legislation will be further developed during 2003 as the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is currently working to transpose three new EU equality directives into Irish legislation, namely the gender equal treatment directive, the race directive and framework employment directive.

The level of demand on our services is very high and has grown consistently over the past three years or so since the authority came into being. Queries on maternity leave, adoptive leave and parental leave amount to approximately 50 queries per day, indicating the high level of interest in that regard. Our web site is also used very extensively. We also have the function to provide advice and possible legal representation to claimants under the legislation in cases of strategic importance which will have a ripple or domino effect. As of this month, our casework files show a total of 285 cases under the Employment Equality Act. Gender issues are the most significant, with 88 case files. Pregnancy-related discrimination, sexual harassment and promotion are major issues.

The race ground is the next largest with 81 case files now open, with the experience of migrant workers being the dominant issue, including working conditions, harassment and dismissal. The disability ground is next, with 46 files open, covering access to employment, dismissal and failure to make reasonable accommodation for workers with disabilities. There are 25 case files on the age ground and those mostly cover access to promotion. There are case files for all of the nine grounds.

Under the Equal Status Act there are 495 case files and the committee will be aware from media coverage that the Traveller ground is the most significant. There are 281 case files on this ground, mostly concerned with access to licensed premises, shops, insurance, accommodation and education. The disability ground has emerged as the second largest, with 65 case files covering access to education, licensed premises and transport. There are 43 case files covering the age ground with both younger and older people, including cases on insurance, transport and access to licensed premises, which can be an issue where a person is too young or too old, something most of us had not taken into consideration. On the race ground there are 35 case files open, covering access to accommodation, social welfare and licensed premises. Licensed premises regularly appear. There are case files open under the Equal Status Act under all nine grounds.

Our mandate is not just about enforcement, we also have a role in engaging in developmental work to support compliance with the legislation as well as promoting a more pro-active pursuit of equality. We have singled out what we consider to be significant achievements of the past three years. We have prepared a code of practice on sexual harassment and harassment in the work place and developed supports for employment equality policies and equality training at the level of the enterprises. These were prepared jointly with IBEC and ICTU. We have disseminated a support pack in the public sector to enhance the focus on accessibility, equality and the accommodation of diversity. That pack was prepared with the quality customer service working group of the Strategic Management Initiative. We also developed a research programme under the national development plan to enhance equality outcomes for older people, Travellers, minority ethnic groups, particularly refugees, and those with disabilities. We developed a regional outreach programme, one of the most fulfilling things we have done, bringing the equality message into the regions instead of just having it centred in Dublin. We did this by engaging with local business, trade unions the community organisations by holding our board meetings around the country. When we do that, it gives us local media coverage and the message gets out. It also means we can have a question and answer session with the people affected by the legislation. These work very well and as a result we have set up regular clinics in Cork and Sligo. If we have sufficient resources, both people and finance, we will develop more of these in the next stage of the strategic plan.

We also engaged with the Equality Commission in Northern Ireland. We liaise with it regularly on all areas of equality and have joint board meetings and conferences. This is particularly important given that equality is written into the Good Friday Agreement. We also have an east-west dimension where we work with the Equal Opportunities Commission and, latterly, with the organisation in Scotland and the human rights organisations. There is now a forum that encompasses human rights, disability and race relations in both countries. In Britain each has a separate commission but they hope to emulate us in the future through legislation that will establish one organisation.

At the moment Mr. Crowley is president of the EU advisory committee on equal opportunities in Brussels. We have always had a voice there and we play a significant role on the European stage.

Mr. Niall Crowley

Three years ago we set ourselves a mission to realise positive change for those experiencing inequality by promoting and defending the rights established in equality legislation and providing leadership in building a commitment to addressing equality issues in practice, to create a wider awareness of equality issues, to celebrate the diversity in Irish society and to mainstream equality considerations across all sectors. I highlight that because in the preparation of this strategic plan, we decided to maintain that mission statement as being the guiding statement of the work of the Equality Authority.

We were conscious in publishing this strategic plan that continuity would be important in terms of people's confidence in us. The legislation was new and we were still opening up avenues in relation to it. That continuity is reflected in the strategic plan, with its emphasis on the provision of information on the equality legislation and on case work. There is also continuity in terms of developing practical supports for employers and service providers to comply with the legislation and pro-actively pursue equality and build a knowledge base for a new equality agenda that encompasses the nine different grounds. The importance of building our own research capacity has been emphasised as well.

We have combined that continuity with a new set of ambitions that we have tried to develop through the six themes that will shape our work over the next three years. Those six themes arose from widespread local and national consultation with the business, trade union, community and public sectors. We are struck by the significant consensus that exists behind the equality legislation. Sometimes the controversy dominates the headlines and we do not hear about the hidden, practical commitment to equality throughout the country.

The themes allow us to organise our resources, in the context of very high demand and expectations, and prioritise in key areas and activities. The first team focuses on service provision and there is a need to emphasise that area. There is a growing level of work on equality in the workplace. The Equal Status Act, with its focus on service provision, is new and there is a significant need for service providers to learn more about it. We particularly emphasise public sector service provision because it can have an impact on the quality of life of people across all nine grounds.

Within that provision we highlight the areas of health and education, which are beginning to emerge in some of the case work. In those areas there is a significant challenge. In education we are focusing on practice at school level and helping schools to develop school plans with equality objectives, codes of behaviour that address issues of harassment under the legislation and admissions policies that reflect their obligations under the Equal Status Act. The health area is more complex. The starting point is in building a relationship with the Department of Health and Children and looking at an equality strategy that might link to planning within the health area and with health organisations in particular, as well as helping the Department, health boards and health institutions to assess the impact of their policies across the nine grounds of the equality agenda. In that way, those policies can be fine tuned to maximise their impact on the nine grounds within current resources. That action must be backed up through equality training and policies, and a capacity to review and develop equality action plans.

The workplace is the second major area of concern. It is an area of continuity and my colleague, Ms Hayes, has described the important relationship we have developed with the ICTU, IBEC and the small firms' organisations. We seek to continue the joint ventures with them through the development of practical support for enterprises to build what we call an equality infrastructure within the work place; that is, an infrastructure of equality policies, procedures and training, as well as the capacity to review what they do from an equality perspective and change what they do on the basis of that review.

We are also continuing to provide guidance to employers and trades unions. We are opening up a programme of employment equality reviews, which is funded under the national development plan. That will focus on a small number of large organisations and companies, looking at policies, procedures, practices and perceptions within the workplace. From that examination we will see how they could be further developed and changed to enhance equality outcomes. A small number of large-scale reviews will assist significantly in examining what makes for effective equality strategies in the workplace.

We will also continue our focus on the family-friendly workplace and encourage the introduction of flexible working arrangements to support those with caring responsibilities. That work and the provision of goods and services is what we call an integrated approach to equality which involves developing initiatives that bring forward all nine grounds of the legislation simultaneously. The benefit of a single body dealing with the nine different grounds is that the strategy becomes open to enterprises and other organisations.

At the same time there is a need to break down and focus upon specific grounds at particular times. Over the coming period, we have identified three such grounds to examine: disability, race and carers. We are anxious to focus on the disability ground because 2003 is the European Year of People with Disabilities. The legislation contains only one positive duty which is to reasonably accommodate people with disabilities to ensure their capacity to participate in the workplace and to address any undue difficulties they might have in accessing services. We want to develop a range of supports and initiatives around that positive duty so that there is a greater understanding of what it involves and a greater commitment to respecting it. We feel that is a key to unlocking some of the barriers faced by people with disabilities in the workplace and in the provision of goods and services.

On the race ground, we want to continue our work with Congress and IBEC concerning the anti-racist workplace week, and will continue to focus in particular on the difficult situation that many migrant workers face. My colleague, Ms Hayes, has already referred to the high level of case work in that area.

The final ground concerns carers, which comes under the family status ground. There is a certain invisibility surrounding the equality agenda for carers. We want to do some work to begin to define what the key parameters of that agenda are and what the policy responses need to be. Therefore, we will convene an advisory committee to prepare a report on implementing equality for carers.

The fourth key theme concerns supporting effective equality strategies. It examines our contribution to equality legislation in terms of the work of transposing the EU directives into domestic law. It also supports coherence between other legislation and our equality legislation, in particular the forthcoming Disability Bill. We see that as a key equality strategy.

Another such strategy concerns equality proofing about which there is not as much knowledge, although it presents a growing focus within policy making. In that way, policy makers will have the capacity to test out the impact of their policy decisions on people across the nine grounds. As necessary, they will be able to change and adjust those decisions to ensure that maximum benefit can be achieved from the policy and its provision.

We are also supporting equality data strategies. Good data are not available across most of the nine grounds, which presents difficulties both in making and assessing policy. We hope to see that matter rectified over the coming three-year period.

We will also examine strategies of community advocacy to provide and support the emergence of alternative supports for people who have claims, in particular under the Equal Status Act. As my colleague, Ms Hayes, said, we only take cases with a strategic or ripple effect, so people need access to other sources of support outside the workplace, similar to the support provided by trades unions within the workplace.

The fifth theme focuses on people experiencing a combination of poverty and inequality - a theme that emerged strongly during the consultation process. When we looked at the nine grounds there was significant experience of poverty which, when combined with discrimination issues, becomes a different phenomenon that requires particular strategies to address it effectively. We will work with the Department of Social and Family Affairs on the national anti-poverty strategy and the development of equality targets within that strategy, also.

The final theme I highlight is the issue of developing our own organisation which is still very new. The full staff allocation is only now being reached and there is much organisation building to be done. In addition, there is a need to continue and develop the regional outreach work to which my colleague, Ms Hayes, referred earlier, in addition to having a presence around the country, even if it is not a physical presence such as a building.

With this plan we believe we are geared up to meet our mandate to promote equality and combat discrimination. The plan will allow us to make a contribution to wider societal goals of equality that have usefully been defined in terms of access to resources, employment, decision making, recognition of one's identity, experience and situation, and access to relationships of respect and solidarity. That is the context within which we hope to place our work over the coming three years.

I thank you, Mr. Crowley, for having provided such a comprehensive overview of your strategic plan in such a short time. I know you would wish to have had a longer period but your presentation was excellent. Thank you very much. If the committee agrees, we will now open up the session to questions for Mr. Crowley and Ms Hayes to answer.

I welcome Niall Crowley and Kate Hayes of the Equality Authority which is a very valuable organisation. We are living in a society that needs such an organisation and which provides a priority public service. I know the authority often has to deal with cynical criticism but its work is appreciated by those who suffer inequality. The work of tackling equality issues and discrimination is an important part of the development of our country. I strongly welcome the authority's strategic plan for the next three years which is well structured and has been laid out clearly and concisely.

Page 12 of the plan refers to the code of practice for schools, which is essential. I worked as a teacher in the inner city for 20 years and as a principal for more than 12 years and I know that some schools have a major problem in dealing with admission policies and similar initiatives. I will never forget the look in children's eyes who turned up in our school, including those in care, some who were from very poor families and Traveller children, also. They came to the school in which I worked having already visited five or six other schools whose doors were slammed in their faces. Those schools would not accept these children because of the situation they were in; they were immediately labelled and put down as some sort of a problem. Having worked with those kind of children for the past 15 years, I can say that the vast majority of them - despite their personal hardship - were excellent. I want to thank the people directly involved in catering for them, particularly the school teachers and care workers who went the extra mile.

It is important to have policies such as those the Equality Authority is drawing up, in addition to working closely with schools. The good news is that many schools in disadvantaged areas, particularly in Cork, Limerick and Dublin, have already got their own equality policies in place. They are trying to put forward the authority's policy of creating inclusive schools. This is a welcome development.

We have much work to do in relation to non-nationals. The authority is doing much positive work but I think Ms Hayes mentioned there are 88 cases. There is a problem in society in that there is discrimination and prejudice against people from different countries who have turned up here. The authority's work in this regard will be valuable and will help us all.

I wish to touch again on education. Mr. Crowley spoke about a mission policy and education. An issue at which he might look is that a number of schools throughout the State are still involved in streaming and discriminating against children who are academically weak or who have a disability. Can the authority do anything about that because it is a disgrace for someone to tell a six or seven year old child that they are in the C or the B class? We are telling them from an early age that they have no value and no worth. That is unacceptable. The good news is that the majority of schools have moved away from streaming but there are still some cases and it must be challenged. We must make sure these children receive a positive signal.

There is a major crisis in regard to health at the moment. I link the health issue to the question of people with disabilities and the way they have to suffer. There was a protest today at the Mansion House by families of children with disabilities which I attended. Some 1,711 of these families must wait for places. Some 485 of these children are in psychiatric hospitals. I find that and the fact that because a hospital is short 30 nurses it must put people with disabilities into straitjackets and detain them in intolerable conditions unacceptable. I hope those days end and I urge the Equality Authority to take on board these situations.

Some 861 people with disabilities have no day care service. As Mr. Crowley mentioned, this is the European Year for People with Disabilities and I would like to see a proactive approach being taken. I place the responsibility not only on the Equality Authority but on all of us, including politicians and people who work in the public service. We all have a responsibility if we are serious about the equality agenda.

I am delighted Ms. Hayes mentioned Travellers and the fact there are 281 cases. I still believe it is an issue society has not taken seriously. I mentioned the debate with the publicans. The majority of Travellers are decent ordinary people getting on with their lives. A minority of them have anti-social problems, as do a minority living in housing estates in Dublin, yet Travellers are discriminated against in pubs and shops, which is unacceptable. I have been in situations where I have tried to go into a hotel or a bar with a friend of mine who is a Traveller but they have been refused entry. That is disgraceful and it reminds me of South Africa 20 or 30 years ago.

As regards the Disability Bill 2003, I hope you will advise and support us when this Bill is introduced in the coming months. This committee will push it strongly. I hope we see a Bill which gives legal protection and rights to people with disabilities and provides proper services.

As regards North-South co-operation, I hope the Equality Authority addresses the issue of sectarianism which we must all take on board. The situation as regards the Holy Cross school in Belfast is unacceptable. What is the authoritys role in relation to these types of issues?

I wish to mention the role of the media. I sometimes believe the Irish media show a lack of balance in objective journalism and that when they report certain situations or cases in relation to Travellers or disabilities, they are not doing a professional job. That must be seriously examined. We should not be afraid to tackle journalists and the media who seem to think they are God or above everybody else when reporting stories. They have responsibilities and a moral and ethical duty to be fair and balanced.

Gay and lesbian people in this country have felt excluded for years and I am delighted with the work the authority has done over the years on this issue. I have talked to many gay and lesbian people who felt totally excluded from society. Many of these are good quality people who work in jobs in the Public Service and who want to serve their country yet for years they felt marginalised. I am delighted and honoured that a group such as yours is pushing their case.

The bottom line is that we all take the equality issue seriously but, as I think Niall Crowley mentioned, it is about accommodating and celebrating difference. The Equality Authority can help us in doing that. If there is anything I can do as a legislator, I will do my best on your behalf.

I welcome Kate Hayes and Niall Crowley and thank them for that excellent presentation on the strategic plan. In her introduction, Ms. Hayes indicated there was an overwhelming demand for the services of the Equality Authority in the first three years. Does the authority have an adequate number of staff? Is there a problem getting sufficient staff to carry out the work it does? Ms Hayes highlighted the type of work in which you are engaged, including conferences, seminars and clinics, and the need to travel around the country and to go to workplaces, schools and employers. All of that is an integral part of the work the authority does in the strategic plan. It is clear there is a need for a substantial number of staff to enable you to carry out that work.

As regards legislation, is the Equality Authority satisfied you have the necessary powers under the existing corpus of legislation recognising that three new European Union directives - the race, the framework employment and the gender equal treatment directives - will come into force in the future? How does the authority assess the existing corpus of legislative powers it has to enable it to carry out work which needs to be done? Is there anything which a committee such as this should look at in terms of amendments to existing legislation?

Deputy Finian McGrath mentioned the Disabilities Bill 2003, which will be major legislation. It is a controversial issue and it is important to get it right and to adopt a rights based approach to it. Will the Equality Authority be producing a report in regard to it? Will it brief us in the future on what it sees as the proper approach to this matter?

Another area which is relevant is the Liquor Licensing Commission which is sitting at present. There have been newspaper reports that the work of the Equality Authority may be side-tracked, so to speak, and that matters relating to Travellers and vintners may go directly to the courts and that complaints may not come before the Equality Authority at all. I would like to hear the authoritys opinion on whether there are proposals to remove issues relating to the Traveller community, which comprise a major part of the equality agenda, from the remit of the Equality Authority.

Another major issue is complaints in regard to race. Arising from the Supreme Court's decision last week, clearly major equality issues arise in terms of the rights of citizens and residents and how the court decided. I am sure a raft of concerns have been expressed to the Equality Authority on that matter. It is something we must address and we could do with a little direction from the authority.

Prisons have not been mentioned. To what extent does the authority's remit cover prisons? There are issues regarding equality of treatment and this is also relevant in terms of residential care in mental health institutions, as Deputy McGrath mentioned, care of the elderly and carers in the home. Questions are regularly raised in newspaper reports regarding the quality of life and capacity of patients to cope in mental health institutions.

I like the authority's approach to prevention. Equality is the basis on which all societies should operate and getting the message out regarding equality should be the primary thrust of the authority's activities. That is great in terms of its strategic plan but I am concerned as to whether adequate resources will be provided.

I welcome the delegation. I am encouraged by comments made by Ms Hayes in her contribution. I am a member of the Forum on Peace and Reconciliation and I am very aware of the emphasis on equality in the Good Friday Agreement. Equality should always be considered as a given but in this context it is viewed as a concession in sectarian circles and that is sad. I am encouraged that people are addressing this issue. Will Mr. Crowley elaborate on how the authority will deal with this issue given that individuals in the North are so set in their ways?

I refer to another issue that has not been raised, namely, the breakdown of marriage and people taking up second relationships. Where do they stand in terms of issues such as taxation, inheritance and so on? The authority has submitted a report to the Government which has been forwarded to a number of Departments that are involved. What is the current position?

I apologise for being late and missing part of the presentation. It could be put down to inequality of access, particularly when one is travelling from Donegal. I compliment the delegation on its second strategic plan. The committee is aware of the authority's activities through media reports over the past number of years. It was high time an authority was set up to vindicate people's rights. The authority has produced a well structured plan outlining its aims and objectives for the next three years. How successful was the first strategic plan? What were the major achievements of the authority in its first three years of existence?

Has the authority set quotas in terms of employment opportunities in semi-State bodies and local authorities? Are these bodies responding to the legislation?

I come from an area where a significant number of people speak Irish as their first language. Has the authority responsibility to ensure there is equal access to State services for people who speak their native language? I refer to the courts, justice, education, health and other areas. I wish the authority every success in the implementation of its second plan.

I welcome Ms Hayes and Mr. Crowley. As Deputy McGrath said, we need information because we are new Members and I was delighted to have the opportunity to hear their excellent presentations. EU directives will be before the committee shortly to address the three specific issues outlined by them. Does the brief of the authority extend to citizens working in Europe who experience discrimination and exploitation in the workplace? A constituent of mine had to return from work in Germany because her employer refused to pay her and she is still waiting to be paid. Has the authority a role in this regard?

I am delighted the authority is involved in outreach work and its work in school is valuable to ensure a more equal society. However, the authority is still not well known from my experience. I hope I am wrong but it is important that outreach work continues. Has the authority new initiatives to ensure that continues? Television plays a significant role in our lives and I would like to see more advertisements placed by the authority. The consumer's rights campaign is clear and the billboards make an impressive impact on the individual. The authority has a role in this regard.

Deputy McGinley referred to local authorities. Has the authority received representations from individuals in rural areas who feel their right to give land to their sons and daughters so that they can build are denied by the planning sections of local authorities? I am surprised Ms Hayes did not mention a statistic in this area but perhaps this does not come under the authority's remit.

I thank Ms Hayes and Mr. Crowley for their presentations and congratulate them on the publication of the strategic plan, which is readable. Much of the documentation that crosses our desk is not easily accessible. Mr. Crowley referred to the need for the authority to be proactive in approaching equality issues in the workplace. Could he elaborate on the authority's engagement with employers? I read the publication, Towards a Workplace Equality Infrastructure, which was a survey of how equality is affecting the workplace. While employers are conscious of their responsibilities under the Health and Safety Acts and the need to draft safety statements, for example, very few have done work on equality statements, particularly in the private sector. We are not much better in the public service where about 60% or 63% of organisations, according to the authority's survey, have equality statements in place. Will the witnesses discuss that?

We need some clarity on the issue of women in the workforce. A report in The Irish Times today suggests that a large proportion of the complaints to the authority concern maternity leave issues. What are the specific problems in this regard? Have they changed over the years or are we still dealing with the traditional difficulties for women? It would be extremely regrettable were that to be the case.

On the issue of disability and disabled people in the workplace, local authorities are criticised on occasion in this regard. I am a member of a number of local authorities and, as chairman of a vocational education committee, have received letters occasionally and have been criticised in the media for not employing sufficient numbers of people with disabilities. It has been my experience that we do not receive applications from people with disabilities. The question is not just one of access but also the organisations working with people with disabilities being proactive in encouraging them to enter the labour market. Will the witnesses discuss the 3% quota? Has that been realised? What, if anything, is being done in the private sector to mirror the State's commitment to a 3% quota?

What level of positive response has the authority received to date from service providers to develop reasonable accommodation approaches? Is there any marked reluctance to take on board the authority's suggestions in any specific sectors?

The witnesses spoke about equality proofing at local and national level. In what type of situations do they envisage a need for equality proofing and what type of methodologies do they have in place to deal with those?

I commend the authority on its prioritisation of carers. Although they have local and national organisations representing them effectively, for too long they were a forgotten group doing invaluable work in communities throughout the country. Anything the authority can do to enhance their status will be work well done.

Regarding Travellers, it is a little unfortunate that, in the public consciousness at present, the Equality Authority is more readily identified with the dispute between licensed premises owners and the Traveller community than with any other work it does. I appreciate the valuable nature of the spectrum of activities in which it is involved. It is interesting that there are 281 cases relating to Travellers and access to licensed premises. Will the witnesses deal with Travellers and access to employment? It is referred to in the survey to which I alluded earlier. What is the authority's practical experience of the Traveller community and its engagement with employers, be they private or public?

I thank Members for their comments and questions. What has been asked reflects to a great extent the queries of the people Members represent. Many questions have been asked and to answer all of them would take a considerable amount of time. While it is difficult and takes weeks to obtain the transcript, the video of this meeting will be available tomorrow and costs about €20. If there are questions the witnesses would prefer to respond to in writing because they may not have time to address them during the meeting, I would be delighted if they would obtain a copy of the video of the meeting and respond to those questions over the next few weeks.

I wish to follow up on one question asked by Deputy Finian McGrath concerning streaming in schools. A problem has arisen where certain schools have become very choosy regarding people with disabilities or autism. Some schools facilitate them but do so in the knowledge that other schools in the area do not take their fair share. Where does the authority stand on that?

Ms Hayes

I thank Deputy Finian McGrath for his kind remarks about the authority and the two of us.

Streaming has not arisen as an issue. I had a son who suffered from it because he was not very good at English and reading as a child and was put in a C class for English and an A class for other subjects. That is when children are in school. I can see problems arising where they are not accepted in schools in the first place. However, we have not had any complaints in this regard.

Regarding the disability issue, I am sympathetic to it having worked in the area for years. We thought the Disability Bill was flawed and made submissions on it. We will make new submissions on the next Bill, which I hope will be rights-based and will make a difference to people.

Travellers are covered under many areas, so we might deal with more specific questions on them.

On the issue of the Holy Cross school, the chairs of the Equality Commission and of the Human Rights Commission, Brice Dickson, were in touch with Fr. Aidan Troy. They asked me at the time what I thought of their contacting him personally to give their support. I thought is was very good. People were very upset by the situation.

The code of practice we issued on the gay and lesbian community has given it hope. The feedback we have received has been tremendous. We get hugs and love whenever we visit places and people say that it is wonderful that the authority has done this because they now have rights. Unfortunately, many people will not even admit their sexuality. A gay and lesbian choir was present one day for a function and, when they realised it was being televised, a quarter of them left because they did not want to be seen if it was going to be shown on the 6 o'clock news. I find that sad.

Deputy Costello asked about staff. We would always say we do not have enough staff. When the establishment of the infrastructure of an equality authority was mooted initially, we were to be given 27 staff. I can tell stories about the battles royal I had to increase that to 50. We have not recruited everyone yet but we are not doing too badly. Everyone would say they do not have enough staff.

The building in which we are located at present is full. I do not even have an office. We share an office and I have a table in the corner for the days I am present in the office, which is often two or three days a week or more depending on what we are doing. The building is packed. We are not really complaining because our budget is not bad.

Everyone has read about the liquor licensing issue. We have met those involved and discussed the issue with them. We do not believe it should go to the courts. It is not our business. That said, we would still assist the complainant whatever court he or she would go to in the end. The process has not been given enough of a chance. Experienced equality officers work in the director's office. It is a knee-jerk reaction in some ways.

Our mandate is on the nine grounds that we outlined earlier. We cannot go outside those at present. We have discussed extending them to criminal conviction grounds. It does not arise very often. We have had submissions from people who have not had enough access to their children but that is not covered and we have not had specific cases. Perhaps Mr. Crowley would like to comment on sectarianism and human rights, as he was present at the last meeting.

Mr. Crowley

Sectarianism is not something we deal with directly. Religion is one of the grounds dealt with by the authority, and we have queries and some case files in that regard in the Southern Irish context. The relationship with the Northern Ireland commission is more about looking at joint work. We are the only two multi-ground bodies in Europe, so developing thinking about how multi-ground bodies operate has been a major focus for us. We have learnt much from each other about developing models for how to approach different areas of discrimination but that would be very much their responsibility in the North.

Deputy Hoctor referred to whether this would be new after seven months but we are still saying it would be new after three years, so that is our excuse for the problems.

This is an important moment in terms of the legislative powers with the transposition of the directives and we have made a submission in relation to that. That will be published shortly and we will circulate it to the committee. It looks at some very technical matters regarding what the directives specifically mean in relation to our legislation. It is not a dramatic shift for our legislation, as that is already very advanced in the European context, but areas of our legislation such as positive action and redress under the Equal Status Act will be tidied up. We will be recommending that we use this to take a further leap forward in terms of our equality legislation. Some of our thinking arises from our joint work with the Equality Commission of Northern Ireland, where there is a statutory duty on the public sector to promote equality. That has been a very important development arising out of the Belfast Agreement, which refers to an equivalence of rights, North and South. The notion of a statutory duty to promote equality is one we see as being a crucial next step for our equality legislation to open up a field of more positive duties rather than just prohibitions on discrimination.

The issue of prisons raises another change for the legislation. The Equal Status Act covers the provision of services in the public sector but does not cover the functions of the public sector in terms of control functions or exercise of duties. We have recommended that the Act should cover both services and functions of the public sector, which would mean the prison sector would come further under the remit of the Equality Authority.

Regarding issues in the workplace, Members are right that the survey we did highlighted quite low levels of workplace infrastructure: less than half had equality policies in place and only 36% had done any equality and diversity training, which we see as very basic starting points. It is also quite nuanced in that the public sector was marginally better than the private sector and the large private and public sectors were much better than the small and medium enterprises. There is a challenge over the next three years to communicate better with small and medium enterprises in particular in trying to address this. We are looking at this quite actively both in terms of local work and contact that caters for this area as well as in relationships with groups like the SFA and ISME in trying to talk more directly to their members.

It is depressing that the issue of women in the workplace remains the most active ground under the Employment Equality Act. The issues are not much different from what they were 20 years ago; the biggest issue is pregnancy-related discrimination, then sexual harassment and promotion. There is a signal there in that despite significant progress, we still have a long way to go, which is why the notion of new generations of equality legislation and moving towards positive duties might help in this regard. However, it sends a warning signal that issues for women have not changed and that the scale of those issues have not changed, which is problematic.

Regarding the employment of people with disabilities in the public sector, we have worked on the 3% quota and outside the Civil Service there are significant issues regarding that quota being met. Our research highlighted a major issue in terms of how employees with disabilities are identified and counted. Very often the difference is between the good performers and the poor performers rather than in the actual differences in practice. We have a problem of definition when it comes to making the quota work and another problem in removing the barriers that exist. Some of those problems relate to people not applying for jobs and we need to look at positive action strategies which are allowed under the Employment Equality Act. Disability organisations need to move on this but employers also need to move and reach out to disability organisations, where potential employees with disabilities are, and encourage applications from that sector.

We have taken a number of cases in relation to Travellers and employment - cases of harassment and dismissal once a person's Traveller identity was revealed in the workplace. The number of cases is small and we are conscious that there are very few Travellers in the mainstream labour force, which is a big issue. Interestingly, in a recent meeting with Congress and IBEC, they agreed that two particular focuses on our joint work should be older workers and Travellers. They are sending a very positive signal in that regard.

We do not necessarily cover the Irish language area; that would be better covered by the Official Languages Equality Bill if it comes through. We do not deal with that currently.

We are developing a range of initiatives in the semi-State sector over the next three years. We carried out a pilot exercise with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and its associated bodies to review and audit the equality practices in the Department and its associated bodies. We developed a template setting out the sorts of initiatives one would expect on foot of equality legislation, social partnership agreements, quality customer service and the Strategic Management Initiative. We now hope to move that template to other Departments who would also introduce it to their associated bodies. We hope to build the focus in that sector, which we view as a priority.

The issues in the education sector have related to access for Travellers and those with disabilities, harassment of gays and lesbians or those of imputed gay and lesbian identity and harassment of black and Traveller pupils. Access for Muslim pupils has also arisen. We have found that when schools are contacted about this issue there is considerable openness about settling the issue, which is a source of optimism, rather than moving to a legal resolution. There is an interest in getting this right which we must exploit in terms of a code of practice or feeding information into the schools. The biggest study into equality in education was carried out by Dr. Kathleen Lynch and Dr. Ann Logue of Maynooth. They looked at streaming from the perspective of socio-economic status, finding that it is a significant source of disadvantage for working class pupils. They tried to look at it from other grounds but the data is not there to establish to what extent people are disadvantaged on the grounds covered by the equality legislation. They pinpointed other issues which we will be looking into but streaming has emerged as a socio-economic status issue as much as any other grounds. We have identified further grounds to be included in the legislation, one of which would be socio-economic status. If that happened the issue would emerge also.

Ms Hayes

Deputy Hoctor raised the issue of advertising. We have had billboard campaigns on various issues such as family friendly and race issues and it comes down to resources. We found that when some of these issues were raised in soaps on television, it created huge awareness and generated calls and so on. People watch these programmes more so than reading The Irish Times so to speak. It creates a huge awareness and it is very important to handle these issues correctly and sensitively in soaps. It is a great way of getting the message across if done properly.

It would have to be called "Equal City".

Ms Hayes

Fair and equal. The amount of interest was amazing. People sometimes consult us and we might sometimes get a call about an issue but we do not currently have the money for a television campaign.

I thank Ms Hayes and Mr. Crowley for a very stimulating meeting as can be seen from the interest in it. If they are agreeable, I am sure members would like to meet them again. In the meantime, I thank them for attending the meeting and look forward to meeting them in the future.

The joint committee went into private session and adjourned at 5.20 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 29 January 2003.

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