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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS debate -
Tuesday, 4 Feb 2003

Vol. 1 No. 11

NESF Report on Reintegration of Prisoners: Presentation.

I extend a warm welcome to all our visitors today, who are attending the meeting to discuss the NESF report on the reintegration of prisoners published in January 2002. In the context of its agreed work programme, the joint committee will examine issues surrounding the formulation and implementation of prison and probation welfare policy. It has been decided to focus today on the re-integration of prisoners. It is anticipated that the committee will want to explore further the issues raised in this meeting and to meet on a future date with representatives of the Irish Prisons Service and the probation and welfare service.

In this first meeting on the subject, the following guests are attending: Dr. Maureen Gaffney, the independent chairperson of the forum that completed the report; Mr. David Silk, policy adviser, who accompanies her; Mr. Tom Lonergan, manager of the Pathways project; Mr.Vincent Sammon, organiser of prison education at the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee; Ms Tina Roche, chief executive officer of the business in the community linkage programme; and Mr. Paddy Richardson, co-ordinator of the programme. They are all very welcome.

The visitors' attention is drawn to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, this does not apply to them. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I propose that we hear each of the guests in turn, after which members will have the opportunity of asking specific questions and raising other points. We will hold a general discussion at that point. Is that agreed? Agreed. I now invite Dr. Maureen Gaffney to make a short presentation. Perhaps she might restrict herself to ten minutes, if possible.

Dr. Maureen Gaffney

I thank the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights for inviting me to speak about the twenty-second report from the NESF on the reintegration of prisoners. Some faces are familiar to me, not least that of Deputy Joe Costello, who has been a long-term member of the forum and has an intense interest in this topic. As the members probably know, the forum's terms of reference, given to it by the Government, give it a focus on equality and social exclusion. That is our remit. It is therefore entirely appropriate, and not before time, for the forum to turn its attention to prisoners, who are among the most disadvantaged people in society and a group that has been marginalised and left outside the social partnership remit until recently.

We started our work on this report at an interesting time for Irish society: the paradox was that the crime rate was dropping while the prison population increased. The members are aware, I am sure, that the imprisonment rate here is one of the highest in the EU - triple that of England and Wales and quadruple that of the Scandinavian countries. They are also aware of the cost of keeping people in prison.

If I may, I would like to make a few personal observations. Throughout the preparation of this report, I was struck by the quite remarkable level of personal commitment and enthusiasm that we encountered in everybody we spoke to and who contributed to this report - the many people who made submissions, the many people who offered their help, the many people and organisations we consulted. This was true of everybody - legal practitioners, statutory agencies, the voluntary groups who work in this area, the staff who work in the Irish Prisons Service, the advocacy groups, the judiciary and the civil servants who have responsibility for offenders and prisoners. I do not wish to single anyone out, but Mr. Justice Moriarty took time off from the Moriarty tribunal to give us his views. That level of commitment and enthusiasm was paralleled everywhere.

The question I asked myself was why there was that level of commitment and interest in an area that was clearly not working. We have a 70% recidivism rate. Clearly prisons are not working, so one would imagine that everybody working in the area would be enormously demoralised. Yet the contrary was the case. The only way I could explain that to myself, which became crystal clear in the course of the consultations, was that despite the fact that everybody knew and was acutely aware that the system was not working, I did not meet one group or one person who did not have a clear idea of what needed to be done. That level of frustration and hope was an important part of the work that needed to be done with regard to prisoners.

Second, people, collectively and individually, were conscious that there was finally a tremendous opportunity to make a go of things in this area, in the sense that wide-ranging reforms have been initiated by the Government in penal reform. I will not go through those because I am sure the members are very aware that the prison building programme is going ahead. Those two things together - that sense that everybody knew a solution was there if we could bring the right confluence of forces together and that this was time to do it - was the only way I could account for the fact that people had such energy and enthusiasm about what looked on the surface to be a pretty intractable problem.

At the core of the report are three central ideas. First, and most important, is our view that the whole point of prison should be the reintegration of prisoners into society as law-abiding and productive citizens. That may sound like a cliché but it is not. What we mean by the whole point of prison is that everything about prison - who goes there, why they are sent there, what happens them day-to-day while they are there, the institutional arrangements we put in place, the prison's business plan, the evaluation of performance of those who run the service, how families are treated, what happens before and after release - in other words, every single aspect of what happens prisoners should have that one unifying aim, namely, to get people out of there and turn them into productive citizens. That coherence in the system is the main thing we are recommending.

The second main idea in the report is based on our discovery that there had been a plethora of excellent reports on prison reform in the last 20 to 30 years, yet the system is still not working. We identified the main problem, which was that although there was no shortage of good ideas, what was lacking was the identification of clear mechanisms by which the change we are recommending could happen. In other words, many people know what needs to be done but they have not quite identified the mechanisms. We hope we have identified those in this report.

The third central idea is that if we are to have real change in this area, the issue of prisoners needs to be brought into the wider remit of social partnership. We were struck by the fact that those who are working and lobbying in the area were themselves marginalised from the endeavour of change that is promoted by social partnership. We thought it was very important that it was brought into that arena, for some very practical reasons. One is that some good models have been devised, for example, for the long-term unemployed and for welfare-to-work, using the social partnership process, that can be applied to this area. The other is that this problem is too big and to critical to be borne by any one section of society. If this is to work we must all be involved in it.

Out of those three ideas we derived some mechanisms. A reintegration group should be set up at national level for strategic purposes, in other words, that a national group should be driving this forward strategically, monitoring and evaluating every single aspect of the system with the reintegration goal in mind. This would then cascade downwards into an interagency steering group, which would be present at each prison level. In other words, the coherence would go from national strategic level down to the actual running of each prison, and that this would be reflected in turn in the business plan of each prison. Members will be familiar with the idea of a business plan and what it means for the evaluation of performance, results etc., and that cascading down from that to the individual level, that each prisoner would have an individually tailored, positive management plan developed by a multidisciplinary chain.

We propose taking the prisoner as he or she comes into the system, making a detailed assessment of needs - including health, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, education, literacy and family support - and devising a plan for that person. The job of the prison system at each level would be to put that plan into operation and monitor it at both individual and prison levels. Each prison should have targets for literacy levels, how much they will improve them and the timeframe within which this will be achieved.

There will be further planned and integrated after-care or post-release services for prisoners. We heard innumerable stories from prisoners, their families and those working in the system about people who did not do badly in prison and, despite the lack of services, seemed to making a fist of their lives only to find they had nowhere to live upon release and the whole thing would fall apart. Those stories were heartbreaking. Accommodation is a key area that must be addressed. It will not, however, be addressed in the context of the current shortage of social housing because in many people's eyes an ex-prisoner's accommodation needs come way below those of everyone else. If we are serious about reintegration, however, this cannot be allowed to happen.

Among our most radical recommendations is that criminal records, bar exceptions relating to public safety concerns, should be expunged after a period and that there should be an ombudsman and a charter of rights for prisoners while they are in prison. There should be a matching of services, with the implementation of the prisoner's rights monitored in the different dimensions. A real prospect should be offered to people that if they meet their own personal goals, and those set for and with them by a multidisciplinary group, there is a long-term prospect that they can expunge their record. We also made complementary recommendations, such as the greater use of non-custodial options and family support.

We are very satisfied with the results so far arising from the publication of the report. Many members of the committee will be aware that significant initiatives have already been put in place. A co-ordination group on prisoner reintegration has been established along the lines we recommended and a director of regimes in the prisons has been appointed, an important step in driving this forward.

There is a plan to establish a working group on positive sentence management. We are also working on the HOS initiative, the multi-agency homeless offenders' strategy, with Dublin City Council. Such initiatives take our recommendations seriously. It is vital that we do not simply produce reports and then disappear, we follow up in a structured way and publish our findings. We go through each of our recommendations after a period and ask Departments and agencies what has been done and publish the results, creating an impetus for the process.

Mr. Vincent Sammon

I welcome this opportunity to address the committee and I also welcome the publication of the report Dr. Gaffney mentioned. This is an area where a person can feel as if he is working in a vacuum.

I would like to discuss the Pathways project, a post-release centre. When I entered Mountjoy in 1978, there were 1.5 teachers in five prisons. In 1980 the figure increased because we discovered that there was more to it than literacy, there were many people in prison who had medium level literacy skills. The Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Education and Science have been very supportive in supplying manpower and resources so we do not complain about that.

Dr. Gaffney mentioned commitment and enthusiasm. People ask me how we survive in such an environment. It is almost incidental that we are working in prisons because we treat the people we meet as students and they see school as an activity that is coincidentally within the prison walls.

Many of the people involved have stories about the progress they made in prison, but they then found there was nothing for them on the outside. It is our experience that certain people made excellent progress from a basic literacy level, where we worked on a one to one basis, to a level of reasonable literacy. When they left prison, however, this was dissipated. While voluntary agencies were in place, upon release a person's first priorities were accommodation, employment and welfare. Ex-prisoners have always said to me that the first few days and weeks are the most important. If there was something towards which they could be directed, there might be a chance of affecting the totally unacceptable recidivism rate.

Unfortunately, resources were not forthcoming and we had enough to be doing in keeping the show on the road in the prisons. In the mid-1990s, however, prisoners became topical. Even in Brussels, social exclusion and ex-offenders were matters of discussion. I attended a conference on reintegration for ex-offenders through employment in Barcelona in 1996. Our guys are pretty good, but many of them are not ready for immediate employment when released. When we returned home, we made a proposal to the Department of Enterprise and Employment. We were given money and decided to draw up a plan that included provision for information technology.

When we received provisional approval, however, we reviewed the position and almost scrapped the plan and restarted. We came up with a proposal that would link the inside and the outside, with plans for both pre and post-release. There had to be familiarity between the people in prison and outside. Fortunately, we were able to deploy staff from the prisons to work in the Pathways project.

One delay in starting was caused when I was looking for premises. We were offered premises around the city that I deemed unacceptable. If it was worthwhile doing this and giving these guys a chance, they had to be given status and respect, so until we got proper facilities, we did not open. If something is to be done there must be structure, respect and status so that prisoners do not feel they are receiving another hand out or welfare, that there is more to it than that.

The appendices to the document I have distributed contain examples of the curriculum and the accrediting bodies involved in the scheme. Although we operate in prisons, it is as if we were on the outside. The programmes developed in the prisons are probably more relevant to communities on the outside than they are in prison. Most of the literacy development work was done with prison teachers. When the national reading initiative was established, it was a teacher from the prisons who was seconded out. The back to education initiative is run by two ex-prison teachers.

We have brought some materials with us. Ireland is perhaps the only country in the world that has produced a totally interactive multimedia literacy pack - a computer is not needed for it - containing a reader, cassettes or an interactive CD-ROM. The Pathways project needed European partners and we established a network of six, in Dublin, Valencia, Rome, Lorient, Thessaloniki and Tyneside. While we might appear to be working in a vacuum it was reassuring that there was nothing beforehand. The one thing I came away with was that prison education and the humanitarian approach in Irish prisons far outweighs what is being done in the rest of Europe. Speaking as an Irishman that is not something that always comes across because when there are proposals it seems we import experts from across the water or that something is validated because it is the experience of another country. I specifically remember Mr. Lonergan saying that somebody in Greece has said they were there 20 years. They could not believe that our jobs were specifically in prisons. I said I work in prisons and that it is my full-time job while they were trying to link it with some outside job and that part of their extra-curricular work was visiting prisons to do something about them.

We have a structure whereby the Department of Education and Science supplies us with staff and we have been wanting in the services or resources of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Admittedly, some of the facilities would not be the best. Everyone would agree Mountjoy is a prison that needs an overhaul. That is the background. We listed four objectives: a pre-release course, a post-release centre, devise and develop a curriculum and new materials and some form of psychological support service. It is interesting to note that three of the participants in Pathways are doing an addiction course in Trinity College and two psychologists from our school psychological service work there. I will hand over to Mr. Lonergan who will give more detail on the actual work of Pathways.

Mr. Tom Lonergan

This is a vast subject and it is easy to spread it all over the place, which is part of the problem.

The Pathways Centre, which has come to be known as Pathways, was opened in September 1996 in a premises on Granby Row near the wax museum, which was in the 19th century a finishing school for young ladies. It ran for two years as an integral pilot project and was then mainstreamed by the Department of Education and Science through the ESF fund.

Initial uptake was rapid. Some 291 participants attended the pilot phase. A measure of the project's success is evidenced by a recidivism rate of 8% at a time when the national average was running at 70%. We would have known and have had experience of those 291 participants for ten, 15 or 20 years so we were all in this together. I could not stand over that figure at the moment.

By 1995, prison education which had begun with fairly modest expectations of its feasibility or success had developed into a comprehensive service, providing for all levels of students from literacy to third level and postgraduate.

The peculiar place education had in prison, being in but not of the penal system, and the voluntary nature of prisoner attendance meant that within prisons education had to stand on its own merits. As teachers that has been a wonderful learner for us. There are no rewards in jail for going to school.

The experience of over 20 years of prison education had shown us that, all else being equal, education was an effective agent for personal development which represents a significant first step towards social inclusion.

However, a chasm loomed between educational achievements in prison and continuing that progress on release. Thus, the Pathways Centre was established in 1996, the main objective of which was to effect the reintegration of ex-prisoners who were so inclined into mainstream education, and failing that to attempt to achieve in-house a sufficient level of personal, social and educational development to enable referral into the mainstream to take place and be sustained.

A double-sided barrier arose: there was in 1996 little in the mainstream which was ready to accept ex-prisoners and few of our participants were ready for the mainstream in that whatever qualifications they had were obtained mostly in prison and much of that progress made in prison was dissipated on release. The problems which had caused the person to be incarcerated in the first instance tended to re-appear. The problems encountered were both personal and social, including great difficulty adjusting to the "outside" compounding a plethora of difficulties with behaviour, accessing accommodation, employment, social welfare payments, addiction, ill-advised lifestyles, family difficulties, etc.

Pathways attempted to address this situation, realising that it should not operate on a reductionist model, rather it had to be open-eyed and realistic in relation to the situation and circumstances of its participants. That is one of the problems we are facing now. While the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is responsible for people while they are in prison, who is responsible for them when they get out - everybody, and that means nobody. Different agencies, Pathways included, can look at a particular aspect of something. It is like five blind men looking at an elephant and describing what they see. Prisoners are not an homogenous group, they have the same type of problems but they are individuals and a multiagency approach is needed for every person but the opposite tends to happen. The person is taken as a problem and a type and the agencies all have separate ways of approaching it. This report is a wonderful first step to addressing that particular dilemma.

As is the norm in prison education where learning programmes are the result of a two-sided negotiation between teachers and students, Pathways subsequent direction was informed and would not have been possible without the active and enthusiastic input of its early participants.

Out of these discussions and the work that followed the notion of peer support was seen to be central in that it was recognised that nobody knew more about the business of being an ex-prisoner than an ex-prisoner. Through a process of organic growth an operating model which is a mixture of peer support and professional intervention was developed.

At present Pathways has a staff of 14 including two peer support workers, seven teachers, two addiction counsellors, a career guidance counsellor, administration and manager. Five of the current staff are ex-prisoners several of whom are working in various professional capacities. Significantly, all the ex-prisoner staff in Pathways have clearance to work in the prisons.

The service as it stands, after much toing and froing and reactive work over three or four years had a re-examination of what we did in the past two or three years. The service consists of four essential elements: social and peer support work; guidance counselling; personal-addiction counselling and referral; and educational programmes, activities and deferral. The first three underpin the delivery of an educational programme. If somebody who has been sleeping in a skip walks into Pathways and I ask him or her what day he or she would like to do French, that puts it in perspective. Therefore, the social services and the social and personal supports must be available. If they are available, education and development can take place.

I draw the attention of the joint committee to the diagram in my presentation which explains how Pathways works. Two different types of people come to Pathways. All are in need of safety, in other words, that one is an ex-prisoner does not count. The only way to qualify to get into Pathways is to be an ex-prisoner. There is also respite from the outside world and practical support. That can mean a person coming out, spending a day and being very excited and enthusiastic about everything and losing release papers for social welfare purposes, panicking, getting drunk and having to return from that position and starting again. The process takes about a fortnight and is almost like a post-release syndrome. It is like a step-by-step approach to calm the person down.

There are two types of people who come to Pathways. One type knows already what they want to do, they are a godsend. All they need is advice, placement and support. We have about six people in college in Wales, one in Trinity College and several in VEC colleges. That work can be done by three of us from a small office. It is easy when a person has developed to that stage. The problem lies with the other group - people who have no idea of what they want to do, where reintegration is not really the name of the game. The name of the game is probably integration. They have never been part of civil society as we know it. The best we can do with those is development work which involves counselling classes, stimulation and support. It is an attempt to achieve an operating level where people can read and write and know how to handle themselves in ordinary society and can be sent to a jobs agency. For example, we sent people to LESs years ago and they were back in a fortnight, possibly having given somebody a smack because somebody upset them in some way. Am I over time?

Yes. We would like you to finish shortly.

Mr. Lonergan

I will do that. Most of what I intended to say is on the material given to members, which includes a list of the activities that take place in Pathways. Some of them are the usual classes. Start-up is a job preparation programme and when somebody has completed that, they can be sent to a normal job. The Moving On programme is a formalised way of delivering peer support. It has taken us three years to get that established and it is working extremely well. Outreach services include Wise-up, which is commended in the report. The Wise-up programme was devised by a support worker in Pathways and it involves talking to children who may get into trouble in schools. The programme is causing us logistical problems in that we can only run it on Tuesday and Thursday. If I had a team of suitable participants and suitable support workers we could run it all the time. There is a stack of literature on that from schools explaining the good it does. Support workers visit pre-release courses in the prison education service and there is also the work done by the probation and welfare service in the prisons. The addiction counsellors from Pathways run addiction classes. Originally there were three classes but it is now four since this measure was put together.

Pathways is open to all ex-prisoners provided they are serious and motivated in their commitment. To date, over 800 ex-prisoners have registered as participants of Pathways. Access is by interview. Referral is by word of mouth, prison education, pre-release courses, prison authorities, the probation service and other agencies and referral out is to the various relevant agencies, treatment centres, educational establishments, community welfare officers, Focus Ireland, Simon, etc.

In terms of where we go from here, I was around when Whitaker was put together and issues frighten me because they will never happen. If something happens arising out of this measure it will be wonderful. Much of the work we have tried to do inadvertently, because it was not happening, will be done by people properly qualified to do it. If nothing happens, we will carry on doing what we have done.

Thank you, Mr. Lonergan. No doubt some of our members will have questions for you.

We are pleased to talk to the committee and discuss our work. The linkage programme is a joint nation-wide project between Business in the Community and the probation and welfare service, which is funded under the national development plan. Business in the Community arises out of the social partnership. It is funded entirely by business and it is that linkage which makes it so essential.

Our objective in this programme is to place offenders in one or more of the following areas: full-time employment; part-time employment; Government sponsored employment; a certified training programme; full-time education; or part-time education. The programme is individual centred so it depends on the clients.

The people we meet are not homogenous. We meet with the individuals and examine their cases but to give a profile, the majority of offenders referred to us to date are in the age category 16 to 25. Their offending behaviour can be related to some or all of the following: they come from marginalised, excluded and under-resourced sections of cities and towns; they are most likely to be poorly educated and unemployed; and many suffer from alcohol abuse, drug abuse, loneliness, homelessness, family breakdown and stigmatisation due to public attitudes to offenders.

In terms of the way our programme works, the probation and welfare officer makes a referral to the training and employment officer. This is important and it has to do with what Maureen Gaffney and Tom Lonergan were talking about earlier, namely, finding the offender who is ready for a job, training or further education. If somebody is in a chaotic situation, there is little point in coming to us. We are focused on that element.

We currently have 12 training and employment officers. We started off three years ago with three officers. The training and employment officer meets with the client and together they develop a career path. The training and employment officer makes representation to potential employers or training agencies on behalf of the client, helps him or her through that first step and then come backs frequently. We place no time restriction on the client. They can come back to us after a year, two years or several times during one year.

In terms of the management structure, IBEC is on board. The Small Firms Association is very important to us also. We have about 500 companies working with us on the programme. ICTU is involved as are the probation and welfare service, Business in the Community and the linkage programme. That is the management structure which oversees the whole programme.

I have distributed a statistics page to give members an idea of what we have done to date. We have had referrals from the community. In terms of the probation and welfare service we divide it in two - probation and welfare service, which looks after the prisons, and people who look after the community. The probation and welfare service has responsibility for approximately 10,000 people, 3,500 of whom would be in prison and the rest in the community. Over the past three years we have had 941 referrals from the community and 487 from prisons. A total of 370 people discontinued or did not engage with us for whatever reason. More examination into that aspect needs to be done but many will have finished their sentences and they do not have to come to us if they do not want to. We have about 430 ongoing cases and we have placed 628 people. The programme has been a remarkable success. Of the 628 people we have placed, 336 were placed in full-time employment, 29 in part-time employment, 222 were put on training programmes, 89 went into full-time or part-time education and 40 took up community employment schemes.

The reason the programme is successful is that it has developed in co-operation with a network of strategic partners in the process. The NESF report stated that this is a multidisciplinary, multifunctional programme and working together we can achieve something. There is no time limit for matching the person to a suitable placement. The offender is fully involved in his or her own career development. The training and employment officer provides ongoing support before, during and after placement. The programme has economic benefits to the State. It costs approximately €79,000 to keep an offender in prison. On this programme it costs approximately €1,500 to place the same person in a job, further training or education.

We want to expand the programme over the next few years. We have 12 TEOs but we should have one in most probation and welfare service areas. One of the biggest barriers is that there is no expunging of criminal records of offenders. We are not asking for that in all cases but in the material distributed we have outlined a legal case for the expunging of sentences. I understand research is taking place in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform into international best practice. We cannot continue to charge people with minor offences at the age of 17 which they then have to carry with them for the rest of their life. There are international best practices and we should adopt them as quickly as possible.

There is also access to employment for ex-offenders in the public service and the Civil Service. We are not sure of the exact position; we hope to get answers soon in regard to the State's position on employing ex-offenders. When we approach Departments the attitude is that if a person has a criminal record, they cannot be employed. I do not believe that rule is written down anywhere but we need access to these jobs. We ask employers to employ people from an offending background. We expect the State to do the same to support ex-offenders. That, in a nutshell, is what we do.

I appreciate Ms Roche's input. No doubt members, from whom I will take questions, will have questions to put to her. Does Mr.Richardson want to make an input at this stage?

Mr. Paddy Richardson

Not at this stage, although I will be happy to answer any questions members may have.

I have a number of questions. Dr. Gaffney referred to our high rate of imprisonment compared to other European countries. Does she have a theory on why that is the case? Is it because of our judges or legislation, given that our legislative base is similar to that in Britain? Why do we imprison so many per head of population compared to the United Kingdom and Scandinavian countries?

Dr. Gaffney and Ms Roche referred to the expunging of sentences. Within what period would Dr. Gaffney expect this to happen? If people have a criminal record, after how long should it be expunged and should they be allowed to start afresh? How would she envisage this proposal working?

I welcome the representatives. This is my first time to be a member of this committee. I note from the appendix that two members, the Chairman and Deputy Costello, were members of the forum.

I thank the representatives for their interesting and informative contributions. It is obvious that a good deal of research has gone into the report. As the Chairman said, a number of the findings are disturbing, of which the recidivism rate, at 70%, is the most disturbing. Does this mean that 70% of those currently in prison are there for a second or third time, or is the number even higher? Even though Dr. Gaffney maintained that crime was on the decrease, the prison population is rising.

We have had many reports on prisons, although perhaps this is the first dealing with reintegration. One of the previous reports that comes to mind is the Whitaker report. Does the forum have a timescale for the implementation of its positive proposals? Is it envisaged that a monitoring authority will be put in place to monitor what progress is being made? In the current economic climate and circumstances, does the forum have an idea of the cost of implementation of the recommendations made in the report?

Mention is often made of prison staff. Has the forum found that our prisons are overstaffed, understaffed or adequately staffed? I am not aware whether it has examined what happens in our prisons but many of us are shocked at the availability of drugs, which is a serious problem. Has the forum examined this problem and, if so, how does it consider it can be addressed?

I am interested in the education programme in which many prisoners participate. A wide range of subjects are available. Is the programme funded by the vocational education committees under the Department of Education and Science or by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform? It is important to give offenders an opportunity to further their education.

I welcome the representatives, whom I have met in a previous existence. A theme running through all the presentations was that prisoners were taken not so much as a client group but as peers and participants and consulted on what they would do. Dr. Gaffney spoke of how prisoners would work with staff in producing a positive sentence management plan. In other words, they would engage in how they would spend their time in prison and on how best to do this. The same theme ran through the Pathways Project, which focused on peer activity. Likewise, Business in the Community engaged in consultation directly with prisoners on how best to go about this. That is probably the key principle that will make all the activities about which we are talking potentially successful.

Dr. Gaffney spoke about the high rate of recidivism and imprisonment. The cost of maintaining an offender in prison is also high. It currently costs in the region of €177,000 per annum to maintain a prisoner in Portlaoise Prison. Ms Roche referred to a cost of €79,000 per annum per prisoner but the cost can be much higher in certain prisons.

The blueprint brought forward is an excellent model. Will Dr. Gaffney indicate the extent to which the forum engaged in consultation with the prisons service on this model and whether it has bought into it? She indicated that a reintegration group had been established and that there was a working group on sentence management. To what extent is the prisons service accepting this model as a blueprint for future activity in the context of how to deal with prisoners and their reintegration into society?

In relation to what Mr. Sammon and Mr. Lonergan said, education is provided by the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee in respect of the prisons to which they referred and by other vocational education committees in respect of other prisons. Do Mr. Sammon and Mr. Lonergan envisage that will continue to be the case in the context of what Dr. Gaffney has been discussing in regard to the report? Do they envisage that an external agency such as the VEC will have responsibility for the delivery of educational services or that such responsibility will be incorporated under the remit of a new agency?

In relation to ex-prisoners being involved in the Pathways Project, I ask Mr. Lonergan if that is a key part of its operation. It seems that it has had an enormous success rate in terms of a recidivism rate of 8% among its participants as against the national average of 70%. Does he envisage that this model will be established on a wider basis in regard to the reintegration of prisoners on their release from prison?

Few would be aware of the extent to which Business in the Community is involved in working with prisoners as part of the national development plan. The proposal in relation to expunging criminal records is a positive one. The criminal records of those sent to reformatories have still not been expunged. Those going before the redress board who entered reformatories at the age of seven, eight, nine or ten years still have a criminal record, which is a matter of concern. This proposal made by the forum and Business in the Community is a good one. It is a carrot in that it is an avenue through which the people concerned may get employment. Does Business in the Community deal largely with prisoners or those given a non-custodial sentence? If it deals with both categories, how does it manage the mix?

Members have raised a large number of questions, to which I will take a response. I will then take questions from other members.

Dr. Gaffney

This is a test of short-term memory. I ask Deputies to remind me if I have forgotten to deal with a critical question.

With regard to the Chairman's question as to the reason we still have such a high rate of imprisonment, there are a number of issues involved. The international literature suggests that the number of people in a society in prison at any one point has virtually nothing to do with the crime rate and everything to do with politics and the media and the way they approach the question of crime. Ireland was for a long time a poor country with a poor and traditional policy environment but that has changed in the past ten years. There is much more innovation in policy now whereas previously prison was seen as the only outlet. That was copperfastened by the predominant culture In Ireland up to the last five or six years, which was, in effect, out of sight, out of mind. We simply exported our problems. We hid them away in prisons, put them in institutions, forgot about them and congratulated ourselves on being a moral race. That is changing but prisons were part of it.

The fact that we have such a disproportionately young population has added to the sense of alarm people have about crime rates. In addition, up to recently prisoners were not on the agenda of the groups in Irish society which make things happen. That has changed and, I hope, will change in the future. That is my personal opinion.

With regard to the timescale for our recommendations, we asked the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform to report back to us within six months of publication of the report in order that we could see what progress was being made. That has not happened but that is because the Department is in the middle of setting up the prisons service. We keep in touch with the Department and the prisons service, and know through parliamentary questions and so forth what is happening. We are reasonably satisfied that the recommendations are being taken seriously. We will follow up all the recommendations with the relevant agencies and the Department in our periodic review which will probably happen at the end of this year.

The expungement of sentences is a complex issue but that should not stop us dealing with it. That is the reason we made the recommendation. That is not to say, however, it will be easy to find ways to balance the right of the community to be protected against the right of individuals to put their past behind them with appropriate rehabilitation and, as it were, proof of good intentions. However, serious thought will have to be given to what category of crimes will require a long timescale and perhaps never will be expunged. We will have to face this. I imagine that with regard to categories such as recidivist paedophiles, it would be hard to make a case that their records should be expunged.

On the other hand, we heard countless examples of people from extraordinarily marginalised communities who had a brush with the law at age 14, 15 or 16 years. In one case the man had served his sentence, was in employment and living with his partner and children. The employer, who had been happy with him, found out that he had a past conviction and he lost his job. That is unconscionable. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has set up a working group or some mechanism to look at international experience in this area. We should take account of experience in other countries. While it will be complicated and there will be no neat edges, that should not stop us tackling something which is a matter of fundamental human rights.

We did not cost the proposals. However, whatever costs are involved in setting up the appropriate reforms will be more than compensated by the amount currently spent on keeping people locked up but that is not to undermine the great work being done. Does the prisons service accept the model? In so far as I can tell, it does. We had representatives of the service in for hearings during the preparation of our report and they have kept in touch with us. The service keeps us up to date on what is happening. We had no reason to believe the service had any serious reservations about the recommendations. That is my view.

I believe that covers most of the matters raised.

Mr. Richardson

Deputy Costello asked about the mix between the needs of prisoners and the community. Generally, we would see a distinct difference. Those who are in the community have immediate access to all services in the community and can access them through the support we give them. The difference is that when dealing with prisoners we would require access to them several months before they are due to be released. The main problem is that there are a number of services that do not access prison for the prisoner. We would like to see this happening. For example, the service FÁS provides on the outside is terrific and supportive and our figures reflect this. There are at least 200 people who have availed of FÁS training. Far fewer have availed of FÁS services in prison because FÁS does not have access to prisons. We have asked it to provide outreach services.

Another matter raised on a number of occasions is pre-sentence planning which involves a cohesive approach with all the agencies. We believe people are going into prisons with briefcases every day of the week and passing each other out, not knowing what is going on. That needs to be streamlined and brought together within some sort of cohesive approach. Tom put his finger on it when he spoke about a person needing a multi-agency approach. That is the major difference between working with prisoners and people in the community.

Our figures show that we work with about one third of referrals in prisons and that it takes a lot longer to find places for them. Tom also mentioned the unfortunate aspect of release euphoria. We can work with people but unless all of the services are in place immediately on release and somebody is able to hold them intact, the release euphoria means they are gone from our grasp also and we are not able to maintain them. When we have them in the community, we can motivate and bring them along with us. I hope that addresses the question.

Mr. Sammon

With regard to the imprisonment rate in Ireland, it has increased from 2,100 to about 3,000 but the reason it was at 2,000 to 2,100 was that there was no space. There were about five prisons. We did not have Castlerea or the Midlands prison and Mountjoy Prison was holding up to 700 prisoners. If it increases to 3,000, the figure would be 50%. In England, the number is approximately 70,000. Ten years ago it was 22,000, or about 25%. I am not defending it but spaces have become available and they have been filled.

As regards the positive sentence management plan Deputy Costello mentioned, it was in the Department's policy document on a five year plan in 1994 to try to introduce it. Even at that stage, however, each prisoner who went to school or even worked in prisons followed an individualised timetable which was supposed to cater for his or her needs and interests. In other words, they vote with their feet. If they are interested and getting something from it, they will come and if they do not, they will not appear.

Somebody asked if the provision of education would continue to be the responsibility of the VEC. One might say I have a vested interest in this but I mentioned what was basically a partnership between the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, the Department of Education and Science and the local VEC. It worked well. We provide the staff and the Department provides the facilities and resources. In the mid-1980s there were savage cutbacks in the education budget. If vocational education committees had had to provide the resources and the materials in the mid-1980s, prisoner education would have been slaughtered. However, because the Department of Education was only providing the salaries and the Department of Justice the materials it was able to continue and develop.

I have had experience in Europe and would be hesitant to go that route because there is a tendency towards privatisation. The English experience is like the Dark Ages. A college such as Bristol University, for example, would provide education in three or four prisons, costed at £200,000. Who would call the shots? If I were the governor, I would want to see how many people are doing drama, PE or whatever. It is literally a case of bums on seats.

Teachers have no permanency or security. Each new teacher, for example, gets four days induction into prison education. There is ongoing teacher training and teachers meet for continuous curriculum development. These people may transfer to mainstream schools and a number of teachers have also gone into prison education. Therefore, I believe we should maintain the status quo.

I will now take questions from Members and I will return to Mr. Sammon for a final response.

I welcome the delegation and thank them for an interesting and thought-provoking discussion. As a practising lawyer, an issue which has concerned me for some time from the perspective of living in the south of Ireland is the lack of counselling in prisons for people with serious problems. I spoke a couple of years ago to a psychologist involved in Cork Prison and he said he was the only person who attended on a part-time basis. Does the same apply in Limerick or is there a better system in the capital? Great praise is due to those involved in the Pathways Project, Linkage Project and so on where prisoners are given a new sense of achievement and a chance to integrate into society when they have served their sentence. Are these programmes covered nationwide, including in places like Limerick and Cork? They seem to be very successful and are worthy of great credit.

Is it fair to say that, traditionally, prison sentences in Ireland are much longer than those handed down in Great Britain? I listened to some of the views, particularly those of Mr. Lonergan, in regard to the situation in Britain, which is not unique. We have a tendency to provide community service sentencing. Is there enough of that type of sentencing? In other words, are too many people getting into the prison network for smaller crimes - such as not paying debts and road traffic offences - for which there may be alternative punishments?

It is my view that some categories of people do not deserve to go to prison. There might be other alternatives for these people, such as community service or heavier fines. In regard to road traffic offences, many people could afford to pay the £50 on-the-spot fine for speeding, but since the penalty points system was introduced the numbers being caught have dropped substantially. People who can afford to pay bigger fines are probably not doing so.

Have inmates who participate successfully in these programmes a greater chance of early parole? In other words, people who made a mistake may wish to pay off their debt to society by getting an education, including attending FÁS courses getting involved in programmes such as Pathways or Linkage. If they are then deemed by those running the programmes to be serious about making retribution and integrating back into society, would it be possible for them to use their two and a half years in training of a five year sentence as an extra incentive to get out of prison early?

The most interesting suggestion is the notion of expunging of crimes. This is something the Oireachtas and society should consider seriously. I recall a fisherman's son, who had no criminal record, but who was caught for drink driving when he was marginally over the limit. He emigrated to America and 17 years later when he applied for a green card he was found to have a criminal record. Even though he had already married in America, he was unable to obtain his green card. This is a clear instance of where expunging should apply.

I accept what Dr. Gaffney said that some crimes must be monitored closely. She mentioned paedophiles and those who would be likely to re-offend. In regard to the vast majority of crimes, the case for expunging must be made loud and clear. As a public representative, I would like to lend my support to this excellent idea. The case for expunging for those who wish to reintegrate into society is a very strong one. I must confess my ignorance because I never heard of expunging before. It is something that has struck a chord with me and that I would like to support.

I welcome the delegation whose work, dedication and commitment I strongly support, particularly in relation to the whole question of prisoners. It is very important to say this because there is a lot of discussion at present, even in Leinster House, about social inclusion. As far as I am concerned, it is groups and individuals like those present who try to make the words "social inclusion" mean something in real life. I strongly support their work and would encourage them to continue, despite the trend nowadays against this type of movement. On a personal level, before I was elected to the Dáil I spent 20 years working in the inner city, so I have a fairly good understanding of prisons and prisoners' families. I am well aware of the work done by Deputy Costello.

I have a number of questions. First, in regard to the fact that it costs more than €1,000 per week to keep a person in custody, I find it amazing that money and finance never seems to be an issue when it comes to keeping someone locked up. I would like to hear the views of the representatives on this issue, particularly in regard to the public finances.

When discussing prisons and trying to keep people out of trouble, I strongly believe that we need a strategy of prevention. Some people seem to downgrade the idea that early intervention, particularly in relation to children from dysfunctional or crisis families, does not work. In the area in which I worked, 90% of children were very poor. Despite the poverty, however, only 10% or 15% were in trouble with the law. That percentage came from very dysfunctional violent families where there were alcohol or drugs problems.

If we are to do something about the prison population, we must intervene with these children, if possible, before they reach four years of age. If one tries to intervene with these children at 12 to 15 years of age, one has lost them.

I become really angry when I am told it costs €1,000 per week to keep someone in custody. A great project, Breaking the Cycle, in which I was involved was launched approximately seven years ago in the 33 poorest schools in Ireland. We were given extra staffing and resources and a 12:1 ratio in the junior infant classes. Part of the money was spent on literacy programmes and developing the children's self-esteem. There was one particular programme we called art therapy for dysfunctional and violent pupils. The arts therapist did excellent work in counselling. It reduced the violence in our schools and reduced discipline problems, but we ran out of money. The grant for the year was €5,000 at the time and I see that, according to the delegation's figures, it costs €1,000 per week to keep people in prison.

Do you have a question?

Yes, I want the delegation's views on early intervention. They also mentioned the question of poverty, dysfunction and alcohol. These are all factors in society and we must face up to this reality as well.

I would like to hear the delegation's views on the imprisonment of people with intellectual disabilities. What is the reality of the situation? I am hearing stories about large numbers of people with intellectual disabilities being locked away.

It is up to every member on the committee. We listened carefully to the delegation's views. Prisoners and poor people are not on the political agenda at present. They have gone off the agenda, even in the partnership talks this week. I would like the delegation's views on this also. Finally, I want to commend the great work they are doing.

I too welcome our guests to the committee. There was great wisdom in the Brehon Laws from the point of view that when a person offended in the community, he or she was answerable to the chieftain and to the elders of the group. The problem of the offender, if we can even call the person a problem, was addressed there and then and retribution or reparation had to be made. It is quite a strange concept when you think of it that those who offend and who do not come up to the standard of behaviour are put away and, as Dr. Gaffney said, are out of sight, out of mind.

Do we have to put so many people away, when all of us have the potential to misbehave and offend? Although this is a rhetorical question, the issue of offending in the larger national community must be examined. With people who seriously offend, the only way the issue can be addressed is to isolate them. However, they must be helped, integrated in the best way possible and, if at all possible, prepared to return to society in the way we have learned from the various groups who are represented here. It should not only be about reducing the prison population, but about building up these people and restoring their confidence in themselves.

I salute the work that is represented by the people who are before us. When we talk of people being put away out of sight, out of mind, one of the difficulties is that the great work done by people in the groups represented is not known by the general public. If their work was better known, it would help the reintegration of prisoners. I do not know how that can be done, but society deserves to know the good work that is done. Nobody knows who out of their family may have to look for that help. I feel privileged to be in this House and learning of this type of work which perhaps I would not have been exposed to otherwise.

What is the gender balance in Irish prisons? Dr. Gaffney referred to addressing the needs of each individual prisoner in prison. How much of the individual needs of prisoners are identified at registration when they first enter prison? How is it addressed? Is the prison system falling short of addressing it and preparing them for the return to life with the rest of society due to over crowding and under staffing?

Deputy McGrath mentioned early intervention. Has the national forum, and indeed the other groups represented here, ever taken the opportunity to examine the issue of making a proposal on primary education and intervening at the source rather than subsequently? As a teacher, I have to say that discipline in the classroom is indicative of later offences in society.

Much work could be done on the issue of dysfunctional families. I am interested to hear Deputy McGrath's experience of the Breaking the Cycle programme, which could be of tremendous benefit to the integration of people into society where perhaps they were not given opportunities in earlier days.

I want to return to the issue of the Brehon Laws because I am a firm believer in mediation and reparation.

Do you have a question?

The area of mediation and reparation is not explored enough. The probation and welfare service in Limerick has worked with the local community in Nenagh in a reparation project which should be promoted. In the project people are accountable locally for the crime committed locally in the community where they admit guilt. That is much more cost effective, if we become clinical about it, but it also contributes to building the characters of people and making them accountable to their community. Perhaps the forum is more familiar with the project than I am giving credit for, but I am very interested in the expunging of crimes, which will seriously have to be addressed in this House eventually.

The committee will be addressed by the prisons service later and the welfare service will also be coming in to meet us. If any of our visitors wish to reply in writing to any of the questions raised, you are very welcome to do so at a later date. I will ask you now to make final responses to the additional questions which have been raised. I am conscious that time is passing and am anxious to get through it fairly quickly.

Dr. Gaffney

I will not be able to do justice to all of the questions and insightful comments that were made. I will make a general point which covers the idea of the lack of counselling, educational disadvantage and all of that. My point is that every human being requires a certain quantum of investment to make it in life. They need a certain quantum from people who care about them in their families and from society in the form of schools and public agencies and so on. You need that to just get by in life. My experience now is that if you do not get it at one point in life, you will get it in another. In other words, if you are deprived of education or you are deprived of parental care in a proper way, we in society pay the price later. These are the people who are clogging up the prisons and institutions. These are the people who have such severe health problems in every way, psychological and otherwise, that they get their quantum back anyway but in a way that is destructive for everybody.

When you try to look for the so-called softer services like counselling, etc., you do come up against some institutional resistance that this is all pampering. Somebody asked why money is not an issue when it comes to issues like putting people in prison but it is an issue when you look for these kinds of softer services. The issue is that in general politicians and the public seem to accept it as given that, whether working or not, institutions cost money, but when it comes to services that are making up the deficit what they are not facing is that if you do not give them to people early in life, they will get it from you anyway.

While I am conscious of the time, the point I want to make has to do with educational disadvantage. I could not stress enough the importance of this. The forum has reported on this and I would be happy to give any member copies of our previous reports on it, but I will just give one instance. Last year when I was commenting on our recent report on educational disadvantage, I made the comment that I thought it extraordinary that we were now talking about absenteeism in junior infants. That says everything about how early this difficulty starts. If families fail, as they do because we cannot have perfect human beings, then the next provision by society is the school. The education system is the safety valve and international research is absolutely robust on this. If one's family fails one, one still has a running chance of making it in life if one's schools are good. When I say schools, I mean those geared towards the particular disadvantages some children face even at age four and five.

People talked about the expunging of sentences as being something politicians may take up. That would be a very good thing but they should be prepared for a huge amount of aggro. The question as to why we put so many people in prison was raised. I refer to the Finnish experience on page 23 of our report. They brought down their prison population by 41% in eight years. One of the reasons they could do that was there was a political will to do so. Political will means taking on the sort of reaction which is generated by high profile crimes and when society is on politicians' backs. It is important the two things are kept in focus.

As a member of the Law Reform Commission for ten years, I fought very hard to keep the victim in focus in court proceedings. We brought in the most progressive legislation on rape, sexual abuse and so on in Europe. We must also keep in focus the majority of prisoners who are really among the wretched of the earth. The two things present a real challenge to the political establishment and it would be good if politicians, on a cross-party basis, put their weight behind this.

Mr. Lonergan

I have a feeling money is not the issue here. Money is being thrown at this but it is more a question of knowing what to do. We are dealing with an intransigent problem. My centre is funded by the Department of Education and Science and I have no difficulty getting the money which would keep 3.5 to four prisoners in jail for a year. My centre is cost effective if it keeps 3.5 people out of jail for a year.

Deputy Costello's question on whether the VEC will still be involved in prisoner education if this integration takes place is crucial. I worked with prisoners for about 20 years as a teacher and saw over that time the gradual opening out of a closed institution. I do not think there is any need to labour the point of the dangers and difficulties involved in any kind of closed institution. There was a time - 15 or 20 years ago - when people who subsequently became Ministers and Presidents could not visit jails. That culture has changed completely, and for the good. It is crucial that outside agencies have something to do with what happens in prisons. Teachers in prisons work for the Department of Education and Science and are not under the governor's orders. That is crucial because one keeps a certain professional independence and one can say one's piece without fear or favour.

I was asked whether the Pathways model could be exported. I am not sure if it can because it is particular to a certain situation. Sometimes handing somebody a handbook, a franchise, is not the way to do things. Organic growth is often the best way. There is one in Dillons Cross, Cork, and one in Limerick which have grown out of circumstances there. This would travel and it is all about approach. As regards Pathways and the prisoner education approaches, the people with whom we are dealing are participants in a developmental process and not clients having things done to them. That brings us to the notion of peer support and how crucial that is. Talking about peer support is easy but how does one make it happen? How does one train someone in that regard? This is crucial as otherwise it is us doing things to them, which is a waste of time.

The underlying or main characteristic of our clients is relative poverty. When I was a child in the late 1960s, there were 360 people in prison, including two women. There are 3,600 people in prison now and 5,500 on probation. There are approximately 100 women in prison. We jail people more easily. It has happened in my lifetime. John Lonergan has said time and again that 30% of his prison population should be in mental health institutions and not in prison. We ignore him all the time.

Why is there such a big increase in numbers? It has to do with our society. We are an entirely different race to what we were 30 years and we deal with our problems differently. One of the questions asked was whether people who partook in programmes could get out earlier. We find that it is harder for people to get temporary release because there are extra places in prisons. When there was a push for prison places, one could get people out on temporary release but it is more difficult now.

We want to make sure that early intervention by health boards is a good thing. As regards opening up our prisons, Amnesty International was refused access to our prison about two months ago. I do not know whether our prisons are open; there is a question mark over that.

Mr. Richardson

I wish to address two questions put by Deputies O'Donovan and Hoctor. They asked where we provide services outside the capital. We have services in Limerick and Cork. Deputy Hoctor referred to the excellent programme in Nenagh. Anyone in the probation and welfare services or working closely with the NESF knows about that programme. We have spoken before about the benefit of that programme and we talked about the leap after the particular reparation has been made to training or full-time employment. We hope to be able to link up with and assist people who may want support because the Limerick base also covers part of north Tipperary. We hope to continue to work with the very professional organisation, the probation and welfare service, and to open a fruitful relationship with the Irish Prisons Service. We believe that is important because it will deal with a lot of the issues about which we have spoken today. There will be much proactive activity in that regard.

As regards expunging criminal records, I would like to put a face to that. There is a tendency when one talks about criminals to think of the most severe crimes. I worked as a training and employment officer before I was privileged to have my present post. In one of the areas I worked, I was contacted by the probation and welfare service which asked me if I would speak to a 32 year old lady who was suicidal and needed assistance. That lady had a job in a general hospital since the previous November. She was called in the following January by the matron who told that her form had come back from the vetting office, that she had a criminal record and had not said anything about it. The matron had no alternative but to say she could no longer employ her, although she said she was an excellent worker and there was no problem. The worst thing was that this criminal record was 11 years old and resulted from a fracas on a street during which she stepped in between two people having a row - a public order offence - and kicked a squad car. She was arrested for that and detained for a few days. She is a lone parent with two children. That was sad and it is the type of thing about which we are talking. That is the type of obstacle she and others face.

Mr. Sammon

There are facilities in which people are doing well. They could be moved, say, from Mountjoy to the training unit and if they are doing well on a programme they may get a day or a half day release to attend an education course at college. Some of the women attend full-time courses and return to prison in the evening. Other prisoners in the training unit attend training workshops and are properly FÁS funded in terms of wages and so on. Admittedly the numbers are limited.

Deputy McGrath referred to Breaking the Cycle and early intervention. In 1998, approximately £17.2 million was put aside for early school leavers, of which approximately £14 million went to the Youthreach programme. The money was targeted at early school leavers and teenagers with problems. A further £2.7 million was allocated to primary schools. I recall advocating a reversal of the amounts.

Two things emerge from Dr. Gaffney's report. Some decisions are obviously political and some are media driven. That is not usually mentioned in reports.

On the question of expunging records, there is a precedent here because the Offences Against the State Act provision that one could not hold a job for seven years has been held to be unconstitutional. Applicants convicted of drug related offences may not be able to get visas for America. Even though lads may be clean they are still going to be made feel as if they came from the wrong side of the tracks.

In her report Dr. O'Donnell indicated that it is mainly the disadvantaged and marginalised who come from specific addresses who end up in prison while much white collar crime is not pursued or is punished with fines. There are only 84 women in prison in Dublin, 53 of whom are attending school. There are approximately 90 women prisoners in the country.

On the question of how open prisons have become, I could speak for a number of governors and for Seán Aylward, the director. However, if any members of the committee wish to visit education units in prisons I am sure they would be more than welcome. I thank the committee for providing me with the opportunity to address it.

I thank all the visitors for their attendance and for sharing their expertise with us. We appreciate your time. Many interesting topics have been raised and we will pursue these and hold further hearings. We would appreciate if any of you wish to reply in writing to questions that were not reached or to add to replies already given.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.25 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 5 February 2003.
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