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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS debate -
Wednesday, 7 May 2003

Vol. 1 No. 23

Scrutiny of EU Proposals.

I ask the speaker to give us the highlights and most important items, because this is a fairly long document. We are dealing with EU Scrutiny COM (2003) 75: Green Paper - procedural safeguards for suspects and defendants in criminal proceedings throughout the European Union. This European Commission Green Paper was referred to the joint committee by the Sub-Committee on European Scrutiny after its meeting on 27 March. The joint committee agreed at its meeting on 15 April to scrutinise the paper at the next available opportunity.

I welcome Ms Valerie Fallon, principal officer, criminal law reform division of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, and Ms Deirdre Neenan of the same Department, who will provide a short briefing to the committee on the Green Paper. The Green Paper is part of a consultation process being undertaken by the European Commission prior to the possible formulation of proposals concerning procedural safeguards for suspects and defendants in criminal proceedings throughout the EU with a view to ensuring certain minimum common standards. The paper outlines several areas in which it suggests it may be appropriate to take legislative action, including legal representation, access to interpretation and translation facilities, notifying suspects of their rights, ensuring that vulnerable suspects and defendants in particular are properly protected, and consular assistance to foreign detainees.

The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform questions whether the EU has legal competency in this area and points out that if some of the suggestions contained in the Green Paper are implemented they would have important resource implications for Ireland. As part of the consultation process undertaken by the Department, the paper was circulated to the offices of the Attorney General and the Director of Public Prosecutions, the Garda authorities, the Courts Service and the Departments of Health and Children and Foreign Affairs. The deadline was 7 April and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has considered and collated the various views and is in a position to brief this committee.

I invite Ms Fallon to make a brief presentation to the committee and perhaps she will explain first how she will do so.

Ms Valerie Fallon

Thank you, Chairman. I thank the committee for the invitation to come here today to discuss the Green Paper on procedural safeguards. I note that I am of course precluded from expressing an opinion on the merits of the policy of the Minister, the Government and the Attorney General. In terms of what I intend to do, because the main issue is one of competence and because the Minister has certain views in terms of the approach which the Commission is taking, I would like first to explain the Minister's thinking in that respect. Second, I have provided in the notes circulated more detailed comments on the five areas concerned, on which the Commission is focusing. In the time allowed I will not be able to deal with those areas in detail, but I have given more information in the speaking note. I will try to touch on one or two main points in each area and if there is anything I have not covered, perhaps members will ask me about it.

The committee is aware that the Minister does not believe that there is EU competence in the area of the approximation of criminal procedural law. I will comment on his thinking on that shortly. He also believes that the philosophy underlying the Green Paper, which advocates a level of uniformity on the presumption that it is a good thing in itself, needs to be challenged. He considers that the answer should instead lie in continuing the focus on real and practical co-operation, with change to internal systems arising where it can be clearly shown that such change is necessary for co-operation, so creating the reality of a safer Europe for citizens.

The Minister has asked me to impress upon members that his concern about creating an EU competence for interfering with our procedural law arises solely because of the importance of procedural safeguards in criminal matters and the uniqueness of our law in that respect. At EU and international level, substantive criminal law, by which I mean law which provides for such things as common definitions or common approaches to the punishment of offences, can be approximated without undue interference with the individual legal systems of the states concerned. Procedural law, on the other hand, concerns the way individual legal systems operate and ultimately how each criminal case is processed.

The body of procedural law built up in this country over many years is what gives our system its essential character of fairness. Our procedural rules must satisfy not just the European Convention on Human Rights but the requirement of the Constitution, and they have been interpreted by our courts as a standard in many cases higher than that set by the European convention. The strength of that constitutional guarantee reflects the importance of those rules and gives them a unique character, for example, the constitutional right to due process, the exclusion of illegally obtained evidence, trial by jury in all non-minor cases, fair bail, the presumption of innocence, habeus corpus, the right to have any law invalidated in the courts which conflicts with constitutional rights and the right not to have those laws altered except by referendum. While the Minister shares the Commission's views on the importance of procedural safeguards, he cannot support any approach which might give EU institutions the right to make decisions against our wishes regarding the internal functioning of our procedural laws.

It might be helpful if I put the Green Paper in the context of the current state of play regarding EU work on criminal matters. EU competence to deal with criminal matters is governed by the provisions of Title VI of the EU Treaty. Those provisions lay down the creation of an area of freedom, security and justice to be achieved by preventing and combating crime and such methods as closer co-operation between judicial authorities and approximations, where necessary, of rules on criminal matters. The European Council has endorsed the principle of mutual recognition as the cornerstone of judicial co-operation. Effectively that means that one member state will recognise and enforce a decision made by a judicial authority or court in another member state, and they have drawn up a programme of measures to implement the principle of mutual recognition. Perhaps I should mention that the programme does not include any proposal for the harmonisation of procedural safeguards.

It seems that the nub of the Commission's reasoning in the Green Paper regarding the need for an initiative in the area is that it considers that to achieve mutual recognition, member states should have mutual trust in each other's systems and they must have a standard set of procedural safeguards to that end. The Commission quotes in particular Article 31(c) of the Treaty on European Union as providing the necessary legal base. I mentioned that the Minister questions whether there is EU competence in the area. The treaty provides in Article 31(c), quoted by the European Commission, the competence to ensure compatibility in rules applicable in the member states as may be necessary to improve such co-operation. That is not a charter for the type of standardised approach advocated by the Commission. Instead, it is the competence to ensure compatibility in rules regarding the co-operation which member states accord each other. In other words, it is limited to situations where member states have of necessity a relationship with each other in a criminal matter, for example, regarding extradition or the mutual enforcement of decisions.

What is proposed in the Green Paper goes much further, seeking to introduce obligations which would apply internally in member states. The Commission might seek to apply a procedural rule to our domestic criminal law generally. That is considered outside the scope of Article 31 and to breach the principle of subsidiarity. That view reflects advice which the Attorney General has given the Minister on the issue. Members might also be interested to know that, from informal discussions which the Minister has had with his colleagues in the Justice and Home Affairs Council, it appears it is shared by the majority of member states. It also appears to be supported by the fact that the Convention on the Future of Europe is examining the possibility of a future treaty base for the approximation of elements of criminal procedure on the basis that the current treaty provisions do not allow concrete possibilities for such approximation.

The Commission's goal of establishing mutual confidence among member states is of course a worthy aspiration. The problem is that there is no legal base for that purpose. Mutual trust can be achieved through enforcement of the European Convention on Human Rights by national courts and the European Court of Human Rights. As I said, there is no competence for an EU enforcement role. In addition, the Minister cannot see what benefit there would be in the establishment of an alternative enforcement mechanism at EU level. That is not to say that he is opposed to other practical approaches to achieving mutual trust, for example, a system of voluntary peer evaluation among member states. Nor would the Minister be opposed to improvements in our systems if he were satisfied that they would be real and in the interests of justice. For example, Commission-sponsored work on establishing the best practical approach to the provision of interpretation and translation facilities might be helpful to us in further developing such services in this jurisdiction. However, that is a different matter from agreeing that there should be a common EU approach to criminal procedure.

The Commission will receive observations from interested parties by 15 May, having asked for them by that date. It will then produce a proposal for a framework decision by the end of the year. As I have explained, because the Minister does not believe that it would be reconcilable with the EU treaty, he could not support any such framework decision.

For the purposes of the Green Paper, the Commission has focused on five areas, which has been mentioned. It plans to address other areas in future. The current areas are legal advice and representation, access to translation and interpretation, the protection for vulnerable persons, consular assistance for foreign detainees and notifying suspects of their rights. In the note which I circulated I have provided some details, particularly regarding the law in force in Ireland in those areas. However, it would take some time to go through them all so rather than waste time, it might be useful if I very briefly picked out one or two points from each area concerned.

The right to legal assistance and representation is well established both in the European Convention on Human Rights and in our law. It is somewhat difficult to see what would be the added value of an EU restatement of these rights. There is also the possibility that if the Commission were to set criteria, as it has suggested in relation to certain areas, for example, provision of legal aid, we would end up with a very rigid approach. This would be much less flexible than the approach we have in our system and that which the European Convention on Human Rights seems to require.

Interpretation and translation are very well established through the ECHR and in our law and practice. As far as we are concerned the essential criterion is fairness. A person must be able to understand the charges and must understand and see all relevant evidence against him or her. The main proposals from the Commission are that each member state should have a system of training, accreditation, registration and continuous professional development of interpreters and translators. This approach has obvious attractions in terms of the type of standards it sets out to achieve. The Commission has funded a best practice study and this might be very useful to us in the future in developing our services in this area. When the final report of the study is available it will be examined with a view to deciding if we can apply any or all of its recommendations. While the Minister would wish to see this area fully explored he would do so taking account of the professional best practice approach but not in the context of accepting that competence to impose legally binding rules exists.

In regard to protection for vulnerable categories, the Commission has suggested that provision be made for vulnerable groups. They include foreign nationals, children, persons with mental or emotional conditions, persons vulnerable because of their physical condition and so on. The Commission suggests that law enforcement officers be required to assess the vulnerability of the people concerned and take appropriate steps. We have some concerns about a suggestion that it would be appropriate for the police to make assessments of vulnerability, for example, in relation to mental or medical conditions. The Commission has recognised that it is very difficult to decide how to assess vulnerability. There are already procedures in place to try to safeguard the rights of vulnerable people. Perhaps the most important of these is that the person in custody is entitled to consult a solicitor and to have the fact of his or her detention communicated to someone who is not in custody enabling that person to ensure that any vulnerability is made known to the police.

The Commission proposes that a letter setting out the suspect's rights be given to him or her when those rights are first at risk and in need of protection. It is quite difficult to see what the benefit of a common EU-wide letter of rights would be. The suspect will want to know only the rights to which he or she is entitled in the relevant jurisdiction. Trying to provide for a common EU document could result in a document which contains too much information which might serve to confuse rather than enlighten the suspect. On the other hand, too little information may be given in relation to the jurisdiction in question.

The last area is consular assistance. The Commission has said that more emphasis should be placed on Article 36 of the Vienna convention on consular relations of 1963. This requires that consular assistance be sought for an arrested person or a person charged with committing an offence if the person concerned so wishes. It is difficult to see what added value there could be in providing an EU basis for consular assistance as this is already covered by the Vienna convention. We understand that in reality all EU missions in other member states will have designated consular officials to deal with the convention's requirements, as we have ourselves.

I have dealt very quickly with these areas and I will leave it at that but of course I will be very glad to answer any questions the committee may have.

It is a very interesting Green Paper and the explanations and comments have been very helpful to the committee. I am sure they have raised a few questions, but whether you are able to answer them is another thing. Going to the last topic first, in C72, the letter of rights, what is the position at the moment? A person has to sign for receipt of the information about his or her rights. Is that information now given verbally or in a document? As there are now so many different nationalities in Ireland, if it is given in a document is that document in the language of the person to whom it is given? Are you familiar with this?

Ms Fallon

The information which has to be given to suspects in detention is provided for in some respects in criminal law and in the custody regulations which have been made under the Criminal Justice Act 1984. In addition, there is certain information which the judges' rules require to be given to the suspect, including information in relation to the right to remain silent and so on. The practice is that the gardaí give suspects a document which contains information on all these areas. That document is not translated into other languages as the Chairman suggests. If a person is a non-national or does not speak English the gardaí will try to get an interpreter and will ask the interpreter to read over the document and explain the rights to the person concerned. The question of whether it should be translated into other languages is a very good point. Drawing on their own observations, the DPP and the Garda have suggested that this document should be translated into various languages and obviously that is something that we can perhaps pursue.

You said that the gardaí "try to" provide translation and interpretation. Could a situation arise in which a suspect through language difficulties would not understand what is being said and would not have an interpreter available because the gardaí were not able to find one? What would happen in that case?

Ms Fallon

I say "try" because there can be difficulties, particularly for gardaí in relation to a suspect who has been detained because there is a limited period in which the gardaí are allowed to detain a person under law so they can at times have difficulties getting interpreters. Generally speaking they have access to professional interpreters and they can perhaps use people who they know can speak the language or who may be friends of the person concerned. There are a number of safeguards inherent in the system. One is that the person can have access to a legal representative. If that person is not satisfied with the interpretation, they can raise that issue. We will have recordings of interviews in Garda stations. If there is any question, the record of the interview will obviously establish whether the interpretation has been to a certain standard. It is always open to anyone to challenge any evidence that may have been obtained on the basis that the interpretation was not up to standard. It is then open to the courts not to recognise that evidence. They would probably do so if they were not satisfied that the standards of interpretation was up to scratch.

Is there a specific timeframe within which these recordings are going to be made available? Is it widespread throughout the country?

Ms Fallon

We probably have the exact figures here. They are available and almost every station that was destined to be provided with equipment has been at this stage. It is happening at the moment.

With regard to the protection for vulnerable categories, there are learning disorders, such as ADD, ADHD and autism, and it strikes me that no one in the justice system is sufficiently aware of these particular conditions and their manifestations. For instance, to the best of my knowledge, judges do not have any particular training in terms of these conditions and their effects. Is there anything in Irish law or what is proposed by the Commission that gives comfort to parents of children who have these particular learning disorders? We talk about the physically handicapped, mental or emotional states and illiteracy among refugees, alcoholics and drug addicts. It has been put to me that for people with these conditions, the legal system and the custodial system is not sufficiently informed to ensure their rights are protected.

That is a good question.

Ms Fallon

Yes, it is a particularly difficult area. Even the Commission has acknowledged it in regard of vulnerable people. Obviously, it is also a problem in the areas that the Deputy mentioned. As regards children, there is a large body of safeguards in how they have to be dealt with. For example, for children in custody, where a person is under 18 years of age, the Garda have to notify a parent or guardian of the child and, generally, cannot start interviewing the child until the parent or guardian is present. Therefore, that leaves ample scope for the parent or guardian to bring to the attention of the Garda any possible difficulties the child may have in that respect.

As regards the adult population, if there is any particular difficulty that the adult has, obviously they can bring it to the attention of the Garda. If it is a medical condition and they ask for medical assistance, the gardaí have to provide it. However, the most important safeguard is that the person has legal advice and in court has legal representation. If there is any particular difficulty, it can be represented to the judge who can deal with the particular difficulties.

If it is clear that the person has a mental difficulty, even in the case of a person over 18 years of age, the custody regulations provide that the same safeguards as apply to children have to be applied to that person.

From reading through the presentation and what Ms Fallon said, would it be a fair assessment that our current system of various Acts, judges rules and protection of the Constitution which have existed for many decades, has worked well? Much of the matters set out by the European Commission would be seen as overlapping and using a belt and braces system, whereby our own system has worked well over the years. Is that a fair assessment? We have provision in our system. It may not be in one concise document, but we have the judges rules and the Garda code of ethics and it has been working well. Much of what is being suggested by the Europe Commission corresponds to our system. They are now catching up with a system that served Joe Citizen well.

Ms Fallon

What the Deputy said in a nutshell is very akin to the views of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. He considers that our system provides very high standards of fairness to the citizen. He is particularly concerned that any inroads into the Irish system by European institutions could damage the protections we have in place. As I mentioned earlier, he considers many of these protections to be unique, not just because we have the right to fair trial or legal representation, but so many of these things are guaranteed by the Constitution. The rules regarding these things cannot be changed unless the Constitution is changed. He considers the guarantees are very strong.

The other concern that the Minister has, apart from the issue that the European Commission has competence in this area, is that there is no need to establish for the sake of it another EU enforcement mechanism or common setting of standards. As we see in some areas, such as the right to interpretation, if strict criteria are set one can end up with a rigid system that can result in more injustice than a more flexible approach which is applied in Ireland. I was using the example of the provision of free legal aid, where a person is charged before the court. The court has a great deal of flexibility in determining the means of the person and deciding whether the person can afford legal aid themselves. If there were European criteria that set down a certain level of income, it could be very strict. It would also be difficult to achieve this because there may be different economic standards in each country. It would take away the discretion the courts currently have to recognise in each case whether a person can afford legal representation.

Following from that, the information note received by the joint committee refers to "establishing what the Commission consider to be the desirable achievement of minimum common standards throughout Europe of procedural safeguards in respect of persons accused of, prosecuted for and sentenced in respect of criminal offences." I would have thought if the Commission wanted to go for a basic standard, our standards would be well above those in general. In that case, I refer to a later section in the document where it states that, in addition, from a practical point of view resource implications would arise from the current proposals, for example, any proposal to establish a national register of translators and interpreters and a national system of training, accreditation and development for them. We pride ourselves on having a high level of safeguards in the area so if what is brought in is a basic minimum level, I fail to see where the resource implication is, even on the lines outlined.

I was waiting for a question along those lines because it appears the Minister is trenchantly opposed to a change in the constitutional procedures that exist in Ireland. Playing the devil's advocate, one could say that setting another framework on top of what we have at the moment would surely further protect the rights of the individual rather than in any way diminish them.

Ms Fallon

I will deal first with Deputy O'Shea's questions. In the information note provided, it was mentioned that there could be financial costs involved, in particular in providing for a much more developed service in relation to translation and interpretation. That note simply points out that there could be such costs. That is not to say this is the reason we would not seek to develop the services in that respect. That is one area in which all those consulted agreed that it could be very useful for us to take account of the Commission's best practice, to study it and see how it could be applied in Ireland. In terms of whether it could be applied, taking into account the costs, that is a very big issue which would have to be explored, but the possibility of cost implications would not be a reason we would not seek to achieve a best practice approach to translation services and other services.

Regarding the issue of whether, if we have such high standards of procedural safeguards, there would be a problem in having another layer on top, we are being asked if it would simply make the safeguards stronger. It must be realised that we are dealing with different legal systems. Ireland and the UK have of course a common law system while most of the other jurisdictions have civil law type systems. Within that they all have variations so even if there was competence for this area, which the Department maintains there is not, it is very difficult to say that because you have to accommodate differences in different legal systems. You would end up achieving a system which is as strong as our own, yet with some added value. There is always the danger that when you try to approximate and harmonise, compromises are made and a common denominator base approach is adopted. One has to be very careful of that approach.

I wonder whether we are being a bit too proprietorial about our system. Given the current free movement of people and the thrust towards harmonisation within the EU and a whole range of unrelated areas, it jars a little that the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is maybe not conforming, not wanting to go the same route. Rather than getting into the detail, it strikes me that if people have free movement in the European Union, which will have 25 countries with 400 million people or more, there should be a propensity for us to move towards harmonisation in this area, which will impinge on people in other states, so that they will understand the system and how it works.

This also works in reverse. Given that Irish people are living in countries all over Europe, if there was a common approach, it would assist them in that they would understand the system if they got into difficulty in those jurisdictions. It might be as much the view of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform as that of the Minister. That Department has traditionally been very slow to move and embrace change - at least that is the perception. Perhaps Ms Fallon will comment on that because I am trying to distinguish between the views of the Minister and the Department.

I do not want to sound too right-wing, but there is a perception among the public that with many of the safeguards we have, the pendulum has swung too much towards the criminals and maybe not enough towards the victims of crime. I wonder whether in some of the European standards that pendulum is in a more central position.

Regarding the point about resources, which came across in the introductory remarks as being certainly one of the primary reasons we are not embracing the matter in front of us today, will Ms Fallon elaborate on that. I know she did so in response to Deputy O'Shea regarding the translation service. That appears to be elementary. If somebody does not speak the language of the particular jurisdiction, he or she cannot understand the process or even the charges without the benefit of a proper professional translator so it does not strike me as an area where we should be drawing the line. Maybe Ms Fallon will identify other areas.

The final point is unrelated, but is I believe mentioned in the document circulated. It relates to eligibility for legal aid. It is stated that regarding the operation of the system, with solicitors and barristers, the fees are both attractive and competitive. I am surprised at that, but perhaps Ms Fallon will outline what the barristers' fees are if she has the figures. I have never seen anything coming from the Department to generate competition in the legal profession, which obviously gives rise to the windfall fees which people can charge when there is no competition. I wonder if within the Department there is a list of legal fees as they pertain across all member states and indeed in the accession states. I think that would be useful. Perhaps it is not relevant to this particular debate but it is something which the committee could usefully consider at some stage.

We might also look at the system which pertains within the other member states regarding competition, although I know that in some jurisdictions there is no such competition. It is an important area and the comment made struck me as surprising because there are few members of the public who would subscribe to the notion that barristers' fees or senior counsels' fees are in any way competitive. There is no competition in the area and it is only very belatedly that the Competition Authority has deemed it desirable to take an interest in that area. I know it will find great difficulty in this regard, but I think that as a justice committee it is an area we should look at. Access to the law should not be determined by the depth of a person's pocket, and in Ireland today that is the case.

I am sure there are matters on which you may have opinions and which, as a loyal civil servant, you may want to keep to yourself. However, please reply on the other questions which you are in a position to answer.

Ms Fallon

I will take the last question first, that regarding fees. I am afraid I cannot comment on that. I do not have the information on how our legal fees compare with those of other member states. When I mentioned in the note that the fees were competitive, I meant that barristers' fees are set at a level for the defence comparable with fees paid to barristers generally. They are not competitive in the way you understand, but to the extent that a person on free legal aid will not be disadvantaged by there being a more highly paid prosecution counsel.

You mentioned resources and translation. I hope that I have not given the wrong impression. I would not like to suggest that when it comes to the provision of translation services, there is a limit because of resource implications. That is not the case. In some member states there may be a budgetary restraint regarding the provision of legal aid, but that does not apply here. Legal aid and translation services are related to need. If there is a requirement for translation or interpretation, that will be met. It can be assessed by the court and a person has a right to raise the question of need with it. Where a person is on the free legal aid scheme, the solicitor concerned can decide that the person needs the services of an interpreter or translator, and those services are paid for under that scheme. When I mentioned resources, I meant simply that there could be resource implications regarding the building up of a much more developed system of translation services. That is not to say that it is a reason that it could not be done. I was simply pointing out that it could be a feature of any further development in the area.

Regarding the question of whether a more harmonised approach might not be a good thing, the main objection, as I mentioned, was the question of competence. The treaty provides for certain competences for the EU and the areas not provided for in the treaty remain purely within the remit of the member states. Therefore, establishing a harmonised approach to law and legal procedure in the criminal area is not provided for in the treaty. It is admirable that Irish citizens travelling abroad would be assured of a certain standard of procedural safeguards in other jurisdictions, and that is obviously what the European Convention on Human Rights seeks to achieve. I already mentioned that the Minister would be quite happy to see some mechanism to evaluate, both in Ireland and other member states, the level of protection given to persons in the criminal process without devising an alternative enforcement procedure to the European Convention on Human Rights or giving undue competence to the European Union in the area.

I thank Ms Fallon and Ms Meenan for attending the meeting. It has been very helpful and enlightening. One learns something new everyday.

Pursuant to Standing Orders, I suggest that the committee agree that it will report to the Houses and the Sub-committee on European Scrutiny that it has scrutinised the proposed EU Green Paper and that it has no further comments to make at present. However, it reserves the right to monitor the progress of the Green Paper at EU level and may wish to consider the matter in detail at a future date.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.45 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 13 May 2003.
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