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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS debate -
Tuesday, 27 May 2003

Vol. 1 No. 27

Immigration Bill 2002.

I welcome Jean-Pierre Eyanga, the project officer of Integrating Ireland, to the meeting today to discuss the Immigration Bill 2002, carriers' liability and the implication of the recent Supreme Court judgment concerning the residency rights of non-national parents of Irish born children. As members are aware, the joint committee has dealt with this subject on a number of occasions recently and has held meetings with a number of interest groups.

I welcome to the meeting representatives of Integrating Ireland, which is a national network and an independent alliance of, I believe, 159 community and voluntary groups working in solidarity and committed to promoting and realising the human rights, equality and full integration of refugees, people seeking asylum and immigrants in Ireland. This is a valuable opportunity to gain an insight into the practical difficulties faced by persons affected by the issues. I invite Mr. Eyanga to make a short presentation.

Mr. Jean-Pierre Eyanga

Thank you, Chairman. Integrating Ireland, the national network of refugee, asylum seeker and immigrant support groups, would like to thank the joint committee for giving us this opportunity to present our opinions, concerns and suggestions on the Immigration Bill 2002 and the Supreme Court judgment of 23 January in the case concerning the residency rights of non-national parents of Irish born children. We think it is very important to understand that the two issues we will address concern people - human beings - and not just numbers. That will enable us to better understand the anxieties, fears, stress and despair in which asylum seekers and other concerned people live and will lead us to make the right decisions.

As somebody who left his home country and went through the asylum process in Ireland, I can say that seeking asylum consists of a long series of humiliations, stress, fear and questions about the future. One's two feet are not on the ground and one cannot plan anything or make any important decisions for oneself or one's family. Somebody else directs your life and makes decisions that affect you and your family now and in the future.

I now turn to the carrier sanctions set out in the Immigration Bill 2001. From an international viewpoint, Article 14 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that each person has the right to seek asylum. Article 31(1) of the 1951 United Nations convention on refugees recognises that some refugees may not be in a position to carry valid travel documents as circumstances my have prevented them from obtaining them prior to leaving. That is why Ireland should not impose assumptions on people who are obliged to flee their country for safety or liberty reasons without any proper documentation. People who need protection will always need to move from a country of persecution to countries that can protect them. If Ireland, a country known as democratic and safe, started punishing those who do not carry proper documentation and returned them to face persecution, their lives would be endangered and they would do whatever was necessary to gain safety at all costs, even with the service of smugglers and traffickers. This could lead to tragedy like the one that occurred in Wexford in 2002.

As legislators you must surely recognise that Ireland has an obligation to fulfil its commitment to apply international law to the best international standards and not to expel or return refugees to situations of persecution or danger, as formulated by Article 32 of the United Nations convention on refugees, which deals with the issue of non-refoulement. Articles 31 and 32 of the convention clearly suggest that liability of carriers should not apply in respect of asylum seekers and refugees. The experience of other European Union countries, such as France, shows that carrier sanctions have had little impact on the numbers of immigrants without proper documentation. Carrier sanctions imply that carriers and their employees, with or without training, are effectively forced into the role of immigration officials. Private companies should not fulfil the state’s role in determining asylum claims.

The Refugee Act 1996 was amended to reject applicants for refugee status who fail to attend their scheduled interview. We consider this to be incompatible with the refugee definition in the 1951 United Nations convention on refugees, which states that determination of refugee status must be conducted through substantive interview. Besides the holding of a proper and substantive interview, is there any other possible way of knowing whether a person can be recognised as a refugee under the terms of the United Nations convention? According to the national law, the answer is "No". A non-attendance at interview can then be considered as an abandoned or a closed case and should lead to withdrawal by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform of the possibility of recognising the applicant as a refugee under the terms of the convention. In view of this, we suggest that the Department allow for the possibility of such cases re-entering the asylum process, as suggested by section 17(7) of the Immigration Bill, which deals with the Minster's consent to make a further application for a declaration.

Integrating Ireland also considers that the time restriction of five working days for the applicants to notify the asylum authorities is impractical as it does not take into consideration unforeseen circumstances, such as hospitalisation or obtaining legal advice. We suggest that an appropriate and reasonable timeframe should be applied that will consider the interests of all concerned, including asylum seekers, lawyers and State officials. Aperiod of ten to 15 days would be reasonable. Integrating Ireland suggests that the prioritisation of certain caseloads by the refugee application commissioner and chairman of the Refugee Appeals Tribunal be used as a purely administrative device with no negative impact on the merit of individual claims.

Integrating Ireland has identified three different categories of non-national parents of Irish born children concerned with the Supreme Court decision of 23 January 2002 in the case concerning the residency rights of such parents. First, people who applied for residency before the Supreme Court judgment should be granted residency without distinction as failure to do so can lead to other administrative problem. Second, those who cannot apply following the judgment due to the withdrawal by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform of the application form for residency should be allowed to apply, especially as the judgment never predicted the making of such applications. Third, those who will have Irish born children in the future should be permitted the option of proactively applying for residency without having to be threatened by deportation.

Many questions relating to the protection of children's rights, which should be accorded priority, still remain without answers. For example, what would happen if a non-national parent is deported with his or her Irish child carrying an Irish passport and an immigration officer of the parent's home country refuses to let the child enter as he or she is not a citizen of the country and does not have a valid visa? Has any mechanism been established by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform to ensure that another class of excluded and discriminated citizen is not created? What guarantees will the Department make regarding the protection of the rights of these Irish children abroad since they can be subjected to human rights abuses, such as the lack of freedom to practice their religion in the country of their parents?

This is one question. Another question is what would happen if in future teenagers who were deported with their parents returned to Ireland and sued the State for violation of their constitutional rights? The conditions and criteria for implementing this judgment are not clearly defined and transparent and are hard to handle. Integrating Ireland suggests that a moratorium on deportations should be put in place until the situation is clarified. After all, the implementation of sizeable legislation such as the Refugee Act 1996 was suspended for the almost similar reason of practical difficulties in its implementation. Why not this?

Integrating Ireland believes that for such a rich country like Ireland immigration raises two main questions. One is how to control people who enter the country and the other is how to integrate those already here. The decision and policy makers seem to lack vision and visibility on the future of integration of newcomers. The policy is about getting rid of as many of them as possible. It is obvious that the creation and establishment of a coherent integration policy which would give options and visibility to the Government for better and effective inclusion of refugees and migrants in Ireland would encourage a more positive approach to immigration at all stages of the process and would lay the ground for an inclusive and open society which can benefit from the variety of cultures, knowledge and skills that come with immigration. Integrating Ireland is ready to take part in this process. We think that in less than ten years Ireland will be proud of those of its children who are born of non-national parents, provided they are given a chance to express themselves.

Thank you very much, Mr. Eyanga, for that presentation which clearly outlines the position of Integrating Ireland. I was glad to hear the position you stated and can understand better the anxiety, fear, stress and despair of the genuine refugees who would be persecuted in their countries of origin were they to return and the barriers that effectively face them in Ireland in achieving refugee status or, in some cases, residency status. Certainly, I would like to see a more clearly defined, transparent system put in place sooner rather than later to relieve the people of the stress involved. I know of families who had residency prior to the L and O judgment who give care and love on a continuous basis to their Irish born children who benefit from that. Surely these people should be taken out of their limbo.

I will call on members of the committee and perhaps Mr. Eyanga would take note of the comments made and questions asked so that, at the end, he can address all of them. My question relates to what Mr. Eyanga said about the Refugee Appeals Commission prioritising cases and that this should be procedural only. I am not too sure whether he felt that prioritising meant a certain attitude was to be adopted in those cases. Perhaps he will state more accurately what he said in this regard.

I thank Jean-Pierre Eyanga for making the presentation on behalf of Integrating Ireland. I am sure the Chairman will agree that it was a major part of our policy in dealing with the issue that arose initially, namely, the implications of the Supreme Court judgment, followed by the new immigration legislation, that we would have the benefit of hearing from people who had been through the immigration process of their experiences, their fears and hopes and how they viewed this situation which effectively leaves thousands of people in limbo.

Mr. Eyanga presented a clear and humane approach to us in the language and content of his presentation. I am delighted to see that Integrating Ireland has been extended to include 150 groups and that its mission statement is to work in solidarity with voluntary groups, etc., in promoting human rights and trying to integrate refugees, asylum seekers, immigrants and migrants to Ireland into the community. That is valuable and worthwhile work.

On the two issues with which we are dealing, the position has been put as clearly as by any group that has made presentations to the committee about the background to our responsibilities in terms of carrier sanctions and liability in the Immigration Act, namely, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Refugee Convention of 1951 under which we have entered into international commitments to ensure that proper procedures are upheld by us in the asylum process.

There appears to be a conflict in the legislation in this regard in that it places the onus on carriers with whatever form of transport, be it cars, trucks, trains, planes or whatever, to act effectively as immigration officers, which they are neither trained nor paid to do. To enforce that requirement with the threat of a severe penalty seems to be an abuse of international commitments. It would prevent genuine asylum seekers from ever reaching the shores of this country. We must look carefully at this legislation in the context of what has been said to us today and by all the other organizations which spoke to us on the issue.

It is interesting that the experience of France, as outlined, which introduced carrier sanctions, is that they have had little impact on the number of immigrants without proper documentation. If a person flees persecution, where is he or she to find proper documentation? The government will not give it to him or her so documentation must be either forged or limited.

The second issue is the thorny and human one of the implications of the Supreme Court judgment on 23 January in the case of L and O concerning the residency rights of non-nationals. What Mr. Eyanga proposes in the three points he makes is that anyone who applies for residency because they had a child in Ireland should be granted it. I would like the delegation to elaborate on why it feels somebody who had already gone through the procedure of applying for residency, at a point when the child was born and the Supreme Court decision had not been made, and had been refused residency, should now be granted residency. There are extraneous matters, such as investigating whether someone might be a criminal, for instance. What protections are proposed in relation to this?

The other issue, that anyone should be allowed to apply, goes without saying. If people put off applications on the basis that they had the reasonable expectation that once their child was born in Ireland they would effectively get refugee status, then the most reasonable thing that could happen now is that they would be entitled to apply for residency in their own right. Regarding Irish children born in the future, the delegation is saying people should apply pro-actively for residency, which seems reasonable.

The heart of the matter is the rights of the child, as presented by the delegation. Mr. Eyanga is the first person to say to us that at some future date a child with an Irish passport, an Irish citizen, who may be deported from the State with his or her parents, may come back and sue the State for violation of constitutional rights. That had not occurred to me and nobody else presented that scenario, but it is a realistic one. I agree there should be a moratorium on dealing with this until agreed criteria are put in place. I cannot see how the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will process 10,000 to 12,000 cases on an individual basis; that would be unsatisfactory and would go on for years. What is needed are criteria to be devised in consultation with us, the delegation and the Minister. I hope we can have the Minister and his Department in to discuss the outcome of our deliberations with people like Jean-Pierre and other organisations. This is difficult to resolve but that is the only way to devise a coherent policy to deal with this difficult issue. We cannot rush it. As Jean-Pierre said, the Refugee Act 1996 was suspended for a while because there were difficulties with it in terms of application. There are also difficulties with applying the Supreme Court decision which nobody denies, least of all the Minister, so why should we not also suspend implementing a procedure which is not well thought out and which could lead to considerable inequities and infringements on the rights of children?

I welcome Jean-Pierre and Integrating Ireland. I commend him and his organisation on their work. The submission states that Integrating Ireland is a national network of asylum seekers and immigrant support groups around the country. From his experience of different parts of Ireland, is racism declining or getting worse? Paragraph 2 refers to anxiety, fear, stress and despair. Those are issues I am concerned about because they remind me of my previous job, where 15% of our pupils were asylum seekers and refugees. From talking to them outside school hours I know they felt fear, stress and anxiety. That was a constant theme. There was also despair and serious bullying going on in the wider society. Has that situation improved or deteriorated? I raise this in the context of the debate in the UK, which seems to have deteriorated with the BNP winning local elections in places like Burnley. Do such events lead to more stress for the immigrant community in Ireland?

As a legislator I strongly agree that Ireland has an obligation to fulfil its commitments to apply international law in line with the highest standards and not to turn back refugees to situations where they may face persecution or other dangers, as prohibited by Article 33 of the 1951 United Nations Refugee Convention. I strongly support the submission on that issue. We have obligations as legislators which we must live up to, but sadly many people do not live up to their obligations. We have seen the situation deteriorate rapidly in the Congo in the past 48 hours and I appeal to the Government to use its influence through the UN to intervene. A catastrophe is about to happen and I urge the UN and our Government to act.

Regarding the Supreme Court ruling of January 2003 on the residency rights of non-national parents of Irish-born children, the submission contains three credible and sensible proposals. Where people applied for residency before the Supreme Court judgment they should be granted residency without any distinction, in order to avoid other administrative problems. I strongly support that proposal and will do so in the House. Section 2 of the submission also refers to those who could not apply after the Supreme Court judgment due to the withdrawal by the Department of the application form for residency. They should be allowed to apply also, as the judgment did not prohibit making such applications. The third point relates to those who will have Irish children in the future. They should be allowed to pro-actively apply for residency without being threatened with deportation. I strongly support those three proposals.

The submission refers to Ireland's decision makers and policy makers lacking visibility and vision. Will the delegation expand on that? I often feel we just go for the option of getting rid of as many people as possible. We do not look at the positives of immigration, particularly regarding the knowledge, skills and culture brought in by such people, not to mention the benefits of multi-culturalism, which can have a very positive impact on society. We have a history of emigration going back to the Famine and one needs only to look at the contributions of Irish people to America, Canada, Australia and elsewhere across the world. Our cousins and grandparents were emigrants who made a massive contribution. We should take up the suggestions here and exercise some vision. The delegation should sell this to the Irish public, as there is sympathy that is sometimes dormant among the vast majority of people. Otherwise small non-representative groups take the agenda, as has happened in recent weeks. I have been at some residents' meetings in recent weeks in which comments from the floor about refugees and asylum seekers have been disgraceful. That is a reality but if the delegation has any ideas on how to bring this vision forward I would appreciate hearing them.

I join colleagues in thanking Jean-Pierre for his clear presentation. He speaks with the voice of experience, having gone through the system himself. I am largely in agreement with previous speakers. This would be very simple but for the fact that a large proportion of people presenting themselves at our borders seeking asylum are found not to be genuine asylum seekers under the terms of the legislation. If that were not the case, life would be very easy because there is a great goodwill and desire among Irish people generally to facilitate those fleeing persecution and discrimination. However, we have a right as a State to protect ourselves and our national interest against those who try to enter the country illegally.

In terms of carrier sanctions, the view was articulated that carrier sanctions have not worked effectively in France. Is there any international experience that would meet a middle ground between what is being proposed here and what we might do? I am also conscious that most of those who come into the country without documentation will circumvent the normal methods of entry and the conventional transport modes into the country. Perhaps Mr. Eyanga will speak about how his own organisation and constituent bodies address the issue of asylum seekers and asylum seeking. Does he accept that everyone who presents himself or herself as an asylum seeker is genuinely an asylum seeker? Has he a process of evaluating their circumstances? Does he interview them when he tries to support them and how does he deal with the issue?

I share the point of view expressed in regard to the 10,000 people who were here with Irish born children prior to the Supreme Court decision. Given my experience in my constituency, many of these people are deeply distressed and totally incapable of making any plans for the future because of the uncertainty surrounding their circumstances. Am I correct in assuming from the presentation that these people are a particular priority group and the solution to their predicament is that the Minister should declare unilaterally that they can stay, which would be an end to that matter? Perhaps Mr. Eyanga will explain how he and his constituent bodies evaluate the circumstances of the people who present themselves as asylum seekers.

Mr. Eyanga has heard many comments which probably cannot be answered, but there are some questions also.

Mr. Eyanga

I am flattered to notice that the committee has paid a great deal of attention to what I have said because we made different points in a detailed manner. It means the committee is interested in what I said and I thank the members for this. Perhaps I can refer to the prioritisation question. My major concern is about merit. It would be dangerous if prioritisation meant dealing with applications very quickly without paying any attention to the contents. Prioritisation should be just an administrative tool. Different applications are accepted, including those from new members of the EU. The people who process them must pay as much attention to them as they do to other applications. There should not be any kind of sacrifice of the quality of their work in terms of the merit of different applications. This is what I meant when I said it should be just an administrative tool.

Deputy Costello spoke about carrier sanctions. He asked about those who applied for residency prior to the Supreme Court judgment. I said that all these people should be granted residency. Does it mean that criminals should be included in that group? Criminals are a special category in every country in the world and we deal with criminals as criminals. The Garda, courts and jails existed in Ireland before those who applied for residency arrived here. These structures exist not only for them but for everyone and there should not be a distinction with regard to criminals who may apply for residency. Because this is a democratic country, criminals will be dealt with as criminals, and that is it. I think I am clear enough in that area.

My point was that there was not to be any distinction which seems to suggest that the backgrounds of the people in question would not considered, that it would be simply an imprimatur. Presumably Mr. Eyanga is saying people would be checked on an individual basis and if there is a criminal background——

Mr. Eyanga

There should not be confusion. Because people made application their applications will be incorporated in the first group, so it is not a problem. The residency will be granted. They are accepted in the country but because they are criminals, they will be dealt with as criminals, even though they are there. If they are outside, no one will deal with them. First, they are accepted and then they are dealt with as criminals. There should be no confusion between the two things.

That is fine.

Mr. Eyanga

I thank the committee for agreeing to the other point I made. I do not think Deputy Costello made another major point. I thank Deputy McGrath for supporting our point of view. When I came here 1997 Ireland was very racist. There is some improvement in some areas but in other areas there is no improvement. In fact, things are worse. I am sorry to say this, but it is my experience and it is the experience of members of Integrating Ireland. I can give an example of this. When I came here in 1997 - I am one of the co-founders of the Association for Refugees and Asylum Seekers in Ireland - asylum seekers and refugees experienced racial assaults almost every day. I received all kinds of racist letters referring to me as a monkey and telling me I should go back home. I no longer receive that type of mail and neither do any of my colleagues. What is dangerous - in some areas the problem is worsening - is that intelligent people, some of them politicians, I am sorry to say, are using less than intelligent people to pass on their message. Why are areas such as Buckingham Street, Finglas and Clondalkin dangerous? Those areas are like time-bombs. Many local residents see refugees and asylum seekers as competitors in terms of entitlements. Intellectuals and politicians must work at that level to make people understand that while a problem exists it does not relate to competition. There were poverty problems in these areas before refugees and asylum seekers arrived there. They must help people to understand each other. It would be of tremendous assistance if politicians play this card.

I had a difficult time when I lived in Buckingham Street in 1997. Colleagues now living in that area say it is improving. While things are getting worse in some areas, they are improving in others. I do not wish to speak about issues which I ignore. I came to Ireland in 1997 as an asylum seeker. In my country, I was head of virology services in the National Veterinary Laboratory and head of the department of quality. I am a fully qualified veterinarian specialising in virology. I was able to bring a great deal of knowledge to Irish society. I will give proof in that regard. Two years ago, Ireland experienced the foot and mouth disease crisis. I gave advice, live on television, to the Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy Walsh, informing him that while his overall policy was good he was making a small mistake in regard to horses because when one moves horses from one area to another the possibility of the disease spreading increases because horses are healthy carriers of such virus. The Minister took my advice which was proved correct. That advice was important for the whole Irish nation. It was a modest contribution. I am sure many people in different areas such as, sport, science, medicine and so on can also do that. The problem is, we are not given a chance.

Why are we not given a chance? There needs to be a coherent integration policy on how to include such people in society to take advantage of their expertise. Such a system would be more humane. It relates to my earlier point regarding visibility and vision. I am talking now to politicians. There is a difference between a statesman and a politician. A statesman looks at problems with vision and a politician deals with them on a daily basis. We need people with vision in relation to integration of migrants.

Deputy Ó Fearghail asked about carrier sanctions in the UK and other countries? UK operated carrier sanctions have not been successful. Many people who used lorries and TGVs from France to enter the UK were caught, some were arrested and some died. It has not been successful in France, the UK or in Belgium. Some people die while trying to hold on to the wheel of a plane travelling from Africa to Brussels. Carrier sanctions do not offer a solution, they merely avoid addressing the problem in the right way. The right way is to look at our needs and to examine how we can avail of migrants in a positive way. Ireland must view migrants as an asset rather than as a threat. Migrants should not be viewed as a threat. Many European countries already understand this.

In 2001, Germany needed 32,000 skilled migrants but it was unable to find more than 12,000. What did it do? It allowed all those who applied to enter the country to do so and so found what it needed. Immigration should not be viewed as a threat but rather as an opportunity. Migrants can be an asset to this country.

I thank Mr. Eyanga. He is a great advocate for asylum seekers and non-nationals seeking residency here. Mr. Eyanga may be a vet with a virology speciality but I would fear him if he was in my constituency in politics. He has a political vocation and would do well in politics in Ireland. I hope that in the not too distant future there will be a non-white person in Dáil Éireann again. Dr. Moosajee Bhamjee, of Indian nationality, represented Clare but perhaps we will have an African member of Parliament in the future.

I thank Mr. Eyanga for appearing here today. His visit has been informative and he has opened people's minds further to the problems that exist and, I hope, to some of the solutions that can be put in place to try to address them.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.32 p.m. and adjourned at 3.40 p.m. sine die.

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