JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS debate -
Tuesday, 23 Sep 2003

Vol. 1 No. 32

Crime Prevention in Financial Institutions: Presentation.

Chairman

I welcome members and witnesses to the first meeting of the joint committee of the new Dáil term. I thank them all for their attendance which is very much appreciated. That there was such a positive response from all of the financial institutions to the joint committee's invitation to appear before it today highlights the serious nature of the matter with which the meeting is concerned. I thank the institutions for their co-operation. I also thank the Garda for its positive engagement in this matter.

Already this year, there have been up to 60 bank, building society and post office raids, the latest of which took place at the weekend at a post office in Colehill, County Longford. Raiders tied up staff and made off with €10,000. It has been widely documented that staff in branch offices feel very vulnerable and helpless in the face of random attacks. Their concerns are serious and genuine and we must today focus on and review as a group the measures financial institutions have put in place or failed to provide to tackle this problem. In addition to holding funds for customers, protection of bank staff and customer safety must be priorities for financial institutions. A direct threat exists to staff and customers and preventative measures must be of the highest standard. Nothing less will do.

Robberies are an unfortunate fact of life and there is no such thing as a 100% raid proof financial institution. However, all of us here today have a role to play to confirm that a strategic approach to branch security is adopted and adhered to. The purpose of today's meeting is to allow each of us to examine publicly the way in which financial institutions together with the Garda are protecting their staff, customers and their customers' money and preventing crime. The ongoing relationship between the financial institutions and the Garda is worthy of close scrutiny and I thank Assistant Commissioner Joe Egan and Inspector Pat McCabe for attending this meeting. As part of the crime prevention package, I understand financial institutions provide counselling services for staff members about which the joint committee wishes to ask questions.

I am pleased that we have gathered here to discuss and explore a matter of national importance. I am confidant we can conduct a productive and interesting hearing. This is not intended to be an exercise in the provision of detailed information on individual, sensitive security measures which may be operated at particular venues or on particular incidents which may have occurred in the past nor is today's meeting intended to be a confrontational encounter. I wish to emphasise that each invitee will be treated with the courtesy usual in a parliamentary setting.

Attending are Mr. John Kirwan of the ACC Bank and his colleague Ms Anne O'Dwyer, Mr. John Hickey, Mr. Peter Murray and Mr. Pat King of AIB, Mr. Pat Farrell and Mr. John Flanagan of the EBS, Assistant Commissioner Egan and Inspector McCabe of the Garda, Mr. Eamonn Ryan, managing director of postal services, Mr. Tony Waters, Mr. Tom Coyle and Mr. John Foley of An Post and Brendan Walsh, director of operations and payments, and Mr. John Kirwan, group security adviser, of the Bank of Ireland. As there are six groups here with another six on the way, it is the intention to provide each group with three minutes to make a very short and precise presentation after which there will be a brief question and answer session. We are hopeful that we can finish the meeting by 4.30 p.m.

Before the ACC makes its presentation, I advise witnesses that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, this same privilege does not extend to those appearing before it. There should be no libel committed here.

Ms Anne O’Dwyer

ACC Bank welcomes the invitation of the committee to attend this session to discuss the crime prevention measures it has put in place to ensure adequate security in branch offices for customers, staff and members of the general public. The board of management of ACC Bank fully understands and appreciates the importance of good security measures and is satisfied that the necessary security structures and processes have been put in place. These have the endorsement of the Rabobank group of which the ACC Bank is a wholly owned subsidiary.

ACC Bank has 40 branch offices throughout the Republic of Ireland at both urban and rural locations. The bank's main focus is in the agri and SME sectors. As a result, the cash levels in our branches are relatively low and, given our business strategy, should remain so in the future.

ACC Bank has a documented security policy which states that the purpose of security is to protect our customers in the transaction of business while ensuring customer confidentiality, protect the staff, assets and the bank, avoid financial and reputational risk arising from security breaches and ensure compliance with all regulatory requirements. There are a number of key principles underpinning our security organisational process, including the following: adequate countermeasures must be put in place based on the analysis of threats and in line with established best practices within the financial services industry and the relevant Rabobank Group recommendations; compliance with all relevant legislation and regulations governing health and safety and the management of information is mandatory. Maintaining good security is each employee's responsibility. All staff have a duty to comply with the implementation of security procedures and report security incidents. Management is responsible for promoting staff security awareness and ensuring that staff have the skills, resources and motivation to comply with security procedures.

The bank has an appointed security officer who reports directly to the executive manager with responsibility for risk and control, who in turn reports directly to the chief executive. At group level the security officer reports to the global head of security. The security officer provides a regular update, which is included in the control and risk report submitted to the chief executive.

Other areas within the bank which have specific responsibilities for security include IT security, property and services, operational risk, compliance and internal audit. At a branch office level, the local branch manager is responsible for ensuring that all safety and security practices adopted at the branch are in accordance with bank policy and procedures.

The bank's security policy and procedures are clearly defined and have been made available to managers and their staff. These procedures are designed to provide a safe and secure working environment for staff and customers. The areas covered by the branch procedures include business and customer confidentiality, general awareness and security, procedures in the event of robbery, procedures in the event of fire-flooding, alarm system testing and servicing, call out arrangements, keyholding arrangements, cash movement procedures, upholding of cash and valuables and the use of the bank-at-night safe. Our procedures are based on industry norms and practices and are as recommended by security consultants and the Garda crime prevention unit.

All branch staff are required to understand and observe the procedures to be adopted in any given circumstance. The induction training provided to new staff includes a section on health, safety and security. Part of the branch manager's responsibility is to carry out a regular review of all aspects of safety and security within the branch. Checklists are included with the procedures to facilitate this process. The internal audit review of branches covers physical security. Recommendations made by internal audit are placed in a recommendations log which is submitted for review by the audit and compliance committee which consists of senior management and board representation.

Given the sensitive nature of security details, it is possible to deal with crime prevention measures only in the most general terms. Against that background, the crime prevention measures at branch level include the following: alarm systems, including personal attack buttons; CCTV systems, internal and external; anti-bandit screens; use of safe and cash drawers; use of time lock and night safe facilities; and use of cash-in-transit companies for movement of cash. In addition, branches have been provided with a full set of instructions covering how to respond to an armed raid. The bank retains a counselling service which is made available immediately to staff and customers who may be traumatised by a raid.

It should be noted that the bank implements a wide range of additional countermeasures to protect information held in our IT systems against unauthorised or inappropriate use. We have an entirely separate process which assesses our IT systems against an established set of security requirements and addresses any weaknesses identified. There are a number of areas where the bank has acquired the co-operation and support of the gardaí, and these can be summarised as follows: obtained advice from Garda crime prevention unit in relation to our security procedures, co-operate with local gardaí in responding to alarm activations, reporting of fraud incidents to the Garda bureau of fraud investigation and the reporting of any suspicious transaction under the money laundering provisions of the Criminal Justice Acts. In all areas of co-operation we have found the Garda to be extremely helpful and responsive to our requirements.

In summary, ACC Bank is committed to ensuring that security processes and procedures are such that the protection of its staff, customers and information is maintained at the highest level.

Chairman

Thank you, Ms O'Dwyer. The AIB Group is represented by Mr. John Hickey, general manager of retail banking.

Mr. John Hickey

By way of background, AIB's principal business in Ireland is retail and commercial banking. We employ nearly 13,000 staff in Ireland and have 286 branch outlets and approximately 500 ATMs. Our security policy is the effective mitigation of foreseeable threats through the establishment and implementation of standards, policies and procedures across AIB Group. Central to the effectiveness of the security policy is confidentiality surrounding those security procedures. Realistically, it is not possible - the Chairman made this point himself - to have 100% security in all cases, but we do all in our power to have effective security arrangements. I am thankful that we have seen a significant reduction in bank raids over the past ten years.

Our security policies and procedures can be summarised as follows. Investment in security to minimise risk and protect staff and customers has had priority and will continue to do so. Protection of human life is paramount. As a consequence, the safety and security of our staff and customers is our primary objective. We undertake continual staff training on security. One of the key messages in our training is, "Never put yourself, colleagues or customers at risk". We continually research and develop new security solutions both internally and in association with the industry to provide optimum effectiveness in all our locations. We regularly undertake risk assessment and risk mitigation exercises in all divisions in the AIB Group.

AIB Group's security services provide specialist support and advice in the management of risk. We have a crisis management response team in every division in AIB. We endeavour to reduce the attractiveness of bank raids by reducing cash to the lowest possible level and by deploying the highest quality security enhancements. This has the impact of making raids increasingly unprofitable to criminals.

Partnership with the Garda Síochána is vital to minimising risk. We meet the Garda Síochána monthly and work closely with crime prevention officers and ensure close liaison between local AIB managers and Garda management. We also maintain a close relationship with cash-in-transit companies, enabling benchmarking of our procedures and the deployment of new security initiatives.

AIB is a member of the International Banking Security Association which enables benchmarking of our security against peer banks and gives us access to information on emerging trends in bank crime and new developments in security. When a raid occurs we provide support and counselling services to staff and customers affected by the raid. We also carry out a security review in all cases.

There is potential to improve. Bank raids will become less attractive or prevalent when the amounts of cash in circulation are dramatically reduced. This can be achieved through the rapid deployment of the national payment strategy, and we encourage all the agents of the State to work with the financial institutions in pursuit of this objective. It needs to be expedited if we are to advance towards the ultimate goal of a cashless society.

The existence of and the recent dramatic increases in stamp duty on plastic cards will retard the move towards cash reduction and migration to electronic payments. Ireland is the only country in Europe to levy such a tax and it is at variance with our shared objective to encourage electronic payments.

In conclusion, we have made considerable progress in improving security and reducing bank raids. We will continue to make significant investment in our security arrangements. Going forward, we need to accelerate migration from cash to electronic transactions. AIB will fully play its part in this but it needs more support from Government.

Chairman

Thank you very much. The Garda Síochána is due to make the next submission but, if it is deemed acceptable, I would prefer if the Assistant Commissioner responded to and expressed some of his feelings on what has been said by all of the financial institutions. The next submission will be by An Post, represented by Mr. Eamonn Ryan, managing director of An Post transaction services.

Mr. Eamonn Ryan

By way of introduction, I am the managing director of An Post transaction services, the division responsible for the operation of the post office network. My colleague, Tony Waters, general manager branch operations is responsible for the day-to-day operational arrangements in our branches. Tom Coyle is the chief of security services, a specialist unit, and John Foley is our head of communications.

In addition to the mail services we provide for the post office network, our main function is the distribution and out-payment of welfare benefits. We also have significant business in the receipt and processing of moneys for in-payment services; various bill issuers use the post office branch network for settlement of bills. Our network has 1,725 outlets, of which 93 are company branches, 1,442 sub-post office branches and 190 postal agencies. An Post owns company branches and the employees are directly employed by the organisation. Postmasters staff sub-post office branches under contract. Postal agencies are a new concept introduced in the past year. They are to be found mainly in rural areas. Their principal purpose is to deal with small volumes of welfare benefits and the sale of postage stamps.

The principal priority in our security and crime prevention objectives is the safety of staff and customers. We also aim to safeguard company cash, which is a significant part of the business we carry out. Furthermore, we aim to minimise losses through the widespread use of various security aids, documented security procedures appropriate to specific branch circumstances, staff training and familiarisation with these procedures, the issuing of frequent security reminders in the event of particular alerts, we have a number of audit teams in the field who carry out compliance audits and we liaise with the Garda on an ongoing basis.

We have detailed security procedures operated in our branches. We make the maximum use possible of time lockable safes for the security of cash. In our larger branches we make use of anti-bandit screens, alarms incorporating personal attack buttons, CCTV, smoke packs for currency notes and counter till units with time delay mechanisms. We have frequent security seminars for our staff and postmasters. Security manuals are available in all branches. Security alerts are provided either electronically or by internal newsletter. Our field audit teams are in operation on an ongoing basis. One of their objectives is to review security arrangements in place in branches. CCTV is currently provided in more than 500 branches. We consider this to be a visible deterrent that can also assist in detection of persons involved in crime.

In the event of a raid, we have issued guidelines to our staff. These guidelines set out the procedures to be followed, including those of notifying the Garda. We also have a welfare service that provides assistance to victims of trauma, be they members of the public or our staff. Our co-operation with the Garda Síochána is ongoing at both local and national levels. We have close liaison with the Garda crime prevention unit. We have special focus at particular times, such as when there are high level payouts through the network - the introduction of the euro was an example of that. We have an excellent working relationship with the Garda and are quite satisfied with the co-operation we receive in that respect.

Chairman

Thank you, Mr. Ryan. We will now receive a presentation from the Bank of Ireland Group. Mr. Brendan Whelan is the director of operations and payments.

Mr. Brendan Whelan

I am responsible for operations and payments. With me is my colleague John Kirwan, the security adviser to the group. We have been asked to address three specific elements of our bank security, namely, the degree of co-operation with the Garda authorities, our views on the use CCTV and the level of satisfaction with the crime prevention measures we have in place.

We in Bank of Ireland consider the safety our staff, customers and the public in general to be a very important matter. I will give the committee an insight into how we ensure security in the 288 branches in the State is as effective as possible. We have a dedicated security department with a permanent staff of five, headed by John Kirwan, a former member of the Garda crime prevention unit. Many other departments within the organisation, including premises, human resources and counselling, support this department. Each branch has an administrator responsible for the day-to-day implementation of security policy and procedures.

Staff in the security department provide a range of services for our branches. These services include branch visits, risk assessment surveys and recommending appropriate levels of security. The department also has a major input into premises design and lay-out. This enables crime prevention measures to be produced at the earliest possible stage and in a consistent manner. Specific security requirements are detailed in an architect's manual. The department has also published a comprehensive procedures manual outlining best security practices for staff to follow.

Staff and customers are supported after each raid and group security visits the branch to carry out full review of security measures. They also provide a daily help desk facility for branches and an out of hours service. In addition, the bank has a 24-hour service available to all staff who feel their personal safety is threatened.

The bank's basic crime prevention strategy has been to reduce the attraction and incentive for criminals to carry out robberies while at the same time retaining a comfortable environment in which staff and customers can conduct their business. This has been achieved by significantly reducing the amount of cash available to criminals by employing time lock and time delay features on cash holding units.

We have also installed comprehensive alarm and CCTV systems that provide a real deterrent to criminal activity and assist the Garda in its investigation of incidents. Our alarms are available for staff to use in order to get Garda assistance. Centralised control of the system further protects staff by preventing access to branches out of normal hours. These alarms are monitored 24 hours a day and the lines used to carry these signals are also monitored. Our electronic security systems are installed and maintained to best industry standards. On many occasions the quality of our CCTV pictures have been favourably commented on when shown on "Crimeline".

How can we measure the success of our security strategy? The most obvious metric is the number of robberies that have taken place. Bank of Ireland has seen a considerable fall in the number of robberies we have suffered. Thankfully, we have avoided fatalities or serious injuries to staff or customers in the last decade.

The average number of robberies that took place in 1993-97 was 27 per annum. From 1998-2002 the average dropped to 11. Our percentage of robberies within all banking institutions has also reduced in the last five years. We have seen a substantial reduction in the number of robberies that have taken place and a consequent reduction in the risk to persons working in, or visiting, our branches.

Even with these results, we continue to look at new ways to reduce the risk to our staff and customers and we consult closely with the security industry and the external agencies, including international security consultants and insurance companies, to identify new products and strategies.

Our group security department is represented at meetings that take place between the banks and police in Northern Ireland. It is also represented at meetings of the British Bankers' Association. John Kirwan represents the Irish Bankers' Federation at meetings of the European Banking Federation. He also attends the security forum of the Electro-Technical Council of Ireland. It is responsible for producing and publishing standards for security equipment in the industry in general. All of these associations allow us to gain an appreciation of crime trends on a broader scale than Ireland alone.

I would describe our relationship with the Garda as excellent. The bank has two representatives on the IBF security committee that meets with the Garda each month to discuss crime trends, security issues and the appropriate crime prevention measures. Our group security adviser chairs that forum. The bank also meets crime prevention officers on an ad hoc basis to discuss issues that relate solely to Bank of Ireland. I wish to express my appreciation for the work of the Garda and for their assistance in making our branches safer places for our staff, customers and the general public. The Garda success rate in arresting and bringing criminals before the courts is also a significant factor in the overall context of reducing the risk of robberies.

As is evident from my submission, Bank of Ireland considers security a very high priority and does everything it practically can to ensure the safety of its staff, customers and the general public.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Whelan for an interesting paper. We now have Mr. Pat Farrell, head of marketing of the EBS.

Mr. Pat Farrell

I thank the Chairman.

I am joined by my colleague, Mr. John Flanagan who is head of distribution. We welcome the opportunity to make a submission to the committee.

The market focus of EBS is on the provision of a range of mortgage, insurance, savings and investment products and services. We employ 600 staff and distribute our products through 114 outlets countrywide. We offer limited transaction electronic bill payment services for members and, as a result, our requirement for cash is relatively low. The society's overarching policy in regard to security and raids is that the protection of life is infinitely more important than concern for property. This principle is contained in all policy and procedural documents on the issue and is the central part of all induction and general branch training. Comprehensive procedures are in place for all staff which detail society policy for the effective use of all physical security measures in place. Guidelines are also in place to detail the steps to be taken during raids and in the immediate aftermath.

These guidelines are designed to help staff deal with such events and clearly set out the measures to be taken in assisting and dealing with customers caught up in such events. Furthermore, comprehensive procedures are in place to support branches and customers following raids, which include post-raid counselling and assistance in liaison with Garda authorities.

The society deploys a comprehensive range of physical security measures both inside and outside all branch offices. Such measures include closed circuit television, restricted access for admission to offices, personal attack devices, counter security screens and time delay cash holding facilities. The society's clear policy is to work in conjunction with the Garda authorities and local crime prevention units to improve security measures. In our experience, collaboration with the Garda authorities is beneficial and has impacted positively on our security environment, particularly in the post-raid situation.

The society has organised security briefings for branch managers designed to increase general security awareness and the national crime prevention office of An Garda Síochána has undertaken these briefings. The society retains the services of professional security advisers who assist in the development of security procedures and measures.

In regard to branch offices in particular, this support extends to individual branch visits to determine the effectiveness of security measures in place and recommendations, where appropriate, for improvement. This service also includes branch manager security briefings. Recently we appeared before the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service. One of the points made at that meeting bears restating in the context of today's discussion. Europe is generally moving towards the goal of a more cashless society. Government has a major role to play in realising that goal here by leading the transition to a low cost, more efficient and exclusively electronically based payment system. Currently, the Government and it agencies are major generators of inefficient and costly paper based payments while levying both new and increased duties on alternative, more efficient and less costly card based electronic payment services. The near elimination of cash from the system would go a long way towards addressing the security risks associated with the current system as well as improving our general economic competitiveness.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Farrell.

As we approach the budget, it is a wonder there were just two representations on the duty on credit cards. I invite the Vice-Chairman of the committee to ask questions. Rather than witnesses replying to each individual question, unless I ask them to do so, could they bank the questions and reply to them together?

Deputy P. McGrath

As I know we are under time constraint, I will be brief. I welcome all the groups who have come before us today.

The representatives from ACC mentioned that the company was making great efforts to reduce the amount of cash it holds at branches. Is that why, in recent times, the bank has announced that it will not take any cash deposits at its branches and that they must be forwarded to headquarters? This will have a particularly strong effect in rural areas. Is this a security measure or is there another reason? As a customer of ACC, I cannot fathom it.

Chairman

That is not exactly a security issue and I do not know whether the witnesses wish to respond.

Deputy P. McGrath

Let the ACC tell us whether it is a security matter.

I can see the great difficulty which An Post has with its huge network and in particular with the control of the privately owned outlets. However, to what extent does An Post provide money towards CCTV and so on for postmasters and postmistresses in rural areas? The post offices which are robbed are often the smaller ones rather than the bigger ones.

Reference was made to "Crimeline" in regard to CCTV images. Why is it that the quality of the CCTV pictures on many of these programmes are so poor? Is it that all of those cameras need to be upgraded? Have poor quality cameras been put in place or is it expensive to install better ones? Why are they so poor and why can we not get a better focus?

Mr. Farrell mentioned the levy on credit cards. Perhaps he might elaborate on the difficulties he sees with those levies when we are trying to move away from cash being available in various branches and the difficulties people are experiencing, particularly those whom we need to encourage to use ATM cards. Will Mr. Farrell give us the benefit of his experience over the past number of months since the levies were introduced?

Will the banks' representatives comment on staff security training. Staff seem to turn over at a consistent rate, particularly those working on the cash desk, and they are often younger people. What training is in place for those staff in regard to how to handle a robbery? Can they confirm whether staff are compensated after a bank robbery and how much is paid out? Is it true that everyone employed by the branch gets the same compensation whether he or she was behind the counter and had a gun stuck in his or her face or the manager sitting in an upstairs room who did not see the robbery?

Chairman

I will ask for brief responses from the ACC representatives if they wish to address the issue or state that it is not within theirrealm.

Mr. John Kirwan

We did not expect it to be within the realm of this hearing but I wish to confirm that the security benefit is a knock-on effect but the strategy we have adopted is to provide a centralised service for deposits. We do not have a high level of cash transactions on deposits as it is; therefore, we are providing it on a centralised basis.

Chairman

Will the An Post representatives comment on rural post offices?

Mr. Ryan

In regard to the Deputy's comments about control, we have strict controls over cash management in all the offices, whether they are contracted or operated directly by An Post. We require that postmasters strictly control cash handling in their offices in accordance with the pay-outs which apply to that office.

The deployment of CCTV is generally based on an assessment of the risk involved. We watch the issue carefully.

Chairman

I will ask the AIB and Bank of Ireland to comment on staff training and the turnover of staff at the cash desk. I will not go into bank levies and duties at this time.

Mr. Hickey

Our first priority on taking on new staff is to train them in security procedures. As I mentioned in my presentation, we put continued emphasis on that; it is not just when they come in but on an ongoing basis. The second part of the question was about whether we compensate staff who are involved in a raid. We do, under an agreement negotiated with the IBOA some years ago. We pay €375 to staff who are directly involved in the raid. We judge each case on its merits; it is recognised in the agreement with the IBOA that for those people it is an occupational hazard, so it is dealt with accordingly and sympathetically.

Chairman

Would Mr. Whelan like to reply? I ask him to excuse the fact that the card in front of him contains the wrong name.

Mr. Whelan

My answer is almost identical to Mr. Hickey's response on behalf of AIB. We are subject to the same agreement with the IBOA in terms of compensation and the discretion around it. Equally, as new people join the bank a range of training in security is included as a priority for those who are working in our branches.

Chairman

Has the EBS any comment to make about staff and turnover?

Mr. Farrell

I ask my colleague Mr. Flanagan to deal with that.

Mr. John Flanagan

Our response is very similar to those of the banks; security is an essential part of induction training for new staff or training for replacement staff. Where staff are caught up in raids, our compensation levels are almost identical to those of the banks and the arrangements are similar.

Deputy P. McGrath

What about CCTV?

Chairman

We will come back to that with the representatives of the Garda Síochána because I am sure it is a matter about which they are very concerned. We all saw "Crimeline" last night. Deputy Moynihan-Cronin is the Labour Party Deputy from Kerry South.

Deputy Moynihan-Cronin

I welcome the visitors and thank them for their presentations. Unfortunately, time constraints do not allow us to go into detail, but it is clear from their presentations that all the organisations consider employee security to be of paramount importance and that huge investment has gone into security measures. As Deputy McGrath said, some personnel are more in the front line than others, such as the people at the counter.

Most of the submissions dealt with raids at branches of banks and the post office. We are all aware that the transportation of cash involves a major security operation with the Army and the Garda as we can see when driving through major towns. Obviously AIB, Bank of Ireland and so on have a huge number of branches, but I presume that these security measures are not in place in every town. How is the cash from the smaller branches transported to the bigger branches? Are the staff involved in that and, if so, is security provided? I am a former bank official; I worked in a bank for many years and I was never involved in a bank raid. I felt very safe working in a bank - I feel a lot less safe in my current job.

Deputy P. McGrath

So the Deputy will not be going back to the bank?

Deputy Moynihan-Cronin

That might happen.

Something people may not realise unless they have worked in a bank is that the amount of co-operation between the bank and the Garda is absolutely fantastic. I presume this is still the case. In my time, whenever there was a problem there was no difficulty getting the co-operation of the Garda. There are other questions I would like to ask, but I would appreciate a reply on the issue of staff safety first.

Chairman

We did go in alphabetical order, and I am sure that people would like to respond to all the questions.

Deputy Moynihan-Cronin

I might not be able to stay until the end so I would appreciate a reply.

Chairman

If there is any sensitivity in relation to this matter, that is fine, but the question is about the security arrangements in rural banks generally.

Mr. Hickey

I thank the Chairman, but I have no difficulty answering that. I can reassure the Deputy that we use cash in transit firms, as a policy, to move all cash between branches.

Deputy Moynihan-Cronin

In all branches?

Mr. Hickey

Yes, in branches of any size.

Senator J. Walsh

I join in welcoming the various groups who are here. My questions are fairly general. I gather from the presentation by the representatives of Bank of Ireland that the answer to this may be positive, but is there an overarching committee that co-ordinates what is happening? In other words, if somebody in Bank of Ireland has an innovative idea, is that shared with the other financial institutions? Perhaps this is role is filled by the IBF security committee. It is good to see that there is liaison and co-operation with the Garda as well. Whose responsibility is it to study best practice internationally and to make sure that good security arrangements in practice elsewhere are applied here as quickly as they become available?

Mr. Hickey and Mr. Farrell both mentioned the move towards a cashless society, to which aspiration I also subscribe. Even though I am a Government Senator, I agree that the tax on credit cards is a disincentive for people to use them, albeit a small part of the overall disincentive which also consists of charges applied by the banks for the cards themselves. This acts as a deterrent from moving from cash driven transactions towards the electronic age. What initiatives could the banks take in this regard which might be an incentive for Government to respond? Many people have never had a bank account. To what extent do the banks target that market? I know many students are being targeted because when they are affluent in the future they will be involved in more transactions. There are people, however, who have limited resources and deal exclusively in cash. An effort should be made - perhaps An Post has a role to play in this regard - to persuade those people to move towards using electronic transactions. This may mean that the banks have to consider their own bank charges, particularly for those with small account balances.

Deputy Paul McGrath mentioned CCTV, which is not only a good security tool for the banks but is also useful in society generally. There has been a move to install these in town centres in order to tackle crime. While there are many internal CCTV systems within bank premises and at the ATMs outside, it seems that if a wider view of the streets was taken this could have a deterrent effect on crime. Is there the possibility of a partnership between the financial institutions, local authorities and the Garda in this regard? This could meet some of the needs of the banks but also those of society generally. This is something I would like to see being considered.

Chairman

I am going to delay answering those questions until the next groups come in. The question of co-operation and so on is relevant to everybody. Is that agreed? Agreed. Deputy Máire Hoctor is the Fianna Fáil Government convenor on this committee.

Deputy Hoctor

I welcome the representatives, and I particularly welcome the report we have received from a number of the institutions represented here which states that the number of bank raids has been reduced in recent years.

Deputy McGrath has already mentioned the change in policy at ACC which has resulted in a specific minimum figure for lodgments, which will be accepted at the counter. This is dangerous for people who have to travel to the desk with a substantial amount of cash. In view of the other aspirations we have heard today about moving towards a cashless society, has ACC considered changing its policy to address this danger? How is cash moved by An Post from larger branches to smaller offices in provincial towns? What security exists? The Chairman mentioned the situation at the weekend where a family providing this service to the local community was placed in danger. Is a counselling service provided for employees of An Post who experience such trauma?

A recent and welcome development on the part of AIB, EBS and Bank of Ireland is the provision of ATM machines in local convenience stores. What security exists for this new development? All banks present today are represented by the machine in the local shop. Therefore, it must be a shared responsibility.

Where ATM machines are located on the street, is it policy that CCTV cameras are installed? Women tend to avoid using ATMs on the street at night because of the danger that can arise from using them.

I have reliable information that, despite the efforts of the banks to provide on-line banking for customers, only 10% avail of on-line facilities. Are the institutions making greater efforts to encourage customers to use these services? They diminish the chances of security being breached. Are the banks going to market them more widely in future because they have not proven as successful as they would have hoped?

Deputy P. McGrath

The levy on the cards is causing the problem. That was referred to.

Deputy Hoctor

Prior to the levy on the card, the response from customers did not exist.

The institutions are relying on the assistance of the Defence Forces for security. Are the costs borne by the institutions that benefit from the service or are they borne by the State?

Chairman

There are a number of questions specific to An Post and Bank of Ireland and I will ask the other groups to respond afterwards to the other questions. An Post could reply to the questions on the movement of cash and counselling.

Mr. Ryan

We have a counselling service which is activated after an incident like that referred to by the Chairman. It could include closing the office for a time or providing staff on a short-term basis to relieve those involved.

The distribution of cash in rural areas is undertaken by company vehicles and we limit the amount of cash on any one run.

Chairman

What are the thoughts of the Bank of Ireland in relation to ATMs in convenience stores?

Mr. Kirwan

The ATMs used and the procedures involved are not universal to all of the banks. Within Bank of Ireland the system is different from that of other banks with other machines. In Bank of Ireland we have discussed specific procedures around the use of those machines and we talked to the Garda crime prevention unit in advance of the launch of the product. It has been very successful to date - I am not aware of any security breach related to the machines themselves or to the staff of the shops in which they are located. I cannot answer for the other banks.

Chairman

I would ask Mr. Kirwan to take on board the concerns of members in relation to the ACC and to address them later.

Deputy P. McGrath

What about the levies? Mr. Farrell mentioned them in his presentation.

Chairman

They do not form part of the discussion.

Deputy P. McGrath

They are important because each of the groups mentioned them in the context of better security within the banks. They felt electronic transactions would be far safer because they do away with the need for cash. That was referred to and the banks are entitled to state if it has affected their business, with a downturn in the number of cards being used.

Mr. Farrell

As we are a relatively small player in this area, I have not noticed any perceptible change. The main banks would have better data on that because they are more extensive suppliers of such services. I made a general point that we would be helped enormously by the move towards such a system, which is becoming the norm in Europe where the paper has been removed from the process, taking away the need for large amounts of cash.

Chairman

I thank everyone for appearing before the committee today.

I thank the delegates who have arrived. Everybody heard the first session and we will get on with the formalities. Again we are taking witnesses in alphabetical order, so I welcome from First Active Mr. Tom Doyle, head of human resources, and Mr. Tony Kelly, the facilities manager.

Mr. Tom Doyle

By way of background, First Active pIc. operates a network of 50 retail branches, 20 of which are located in the greater Dublin area and the remainder throughout the country. Some 20% of our branches are mortgage and investment stores only and do not engage in cash transactions.

First Active has put in place a security committee, whose primary responsibility is to the board of directors. It provides a framework for managing the physical, logical and personal security of our employees, systems and products. The security committee carries out its responsibilities by ensuring that there is an appropriate strategy in place to identify, monitor and report on the improvements required and any other recommendations brought to the security committee. The committee is composed of members of the senior management of the company and is obliged to meet on at least six occasions annually. It is responsible to the management board for all security related matters.

The company's policy and procedures in relation to branch security are contained in the branch security manual. The branch security manual covers in detail the employee behaviours required and physical security arrangements in place to minimise the risk of personal injury to employees and customers. Appendix A sets out the contents of the branch security manual and gives a good indication of the extent of the issues covered. The introduction to the manual specifically states that:

While all necessary precautions should be taken to protect and safeguard cash andproperty, this requirement must never take precedence over the safety of staff or members of the public. Thus the first considerationin the event of a robbery attempt is the safety of the staff and public and where a raid or robbery occurs, staff must comply with the instructions.

On joining the company all employees are trained on the branch security manual at induction. A log is retained in all branches signed by all staff confirming that they have read the branch security manual.

Priority is given to ensuring that all staff are familiar with security procedures. This starts at induction and continues through in-branch training sessions. In-branch training sessions on branch security are held in each branch annually in order to ensure all employees are familiar with the requirements.

All branches are fitted with a range of physical security devices including CCTV cameras, perimeter alarms, access control systems, panic alarms, security screens, safes with time delays and secure cash tills. Clear operating instructions dealing with the operation of all of these security measures are in the branch security manual.

The company liaises with the Garda Síochána at two levels - locally through the branch managers and centrally through the human resources and premises departments. The recommendations from the crime prevention officers are welcomed and implemented on an ongoing basis. Full co-operation with the Garda Síochána is always afforded in post-raid situations. Details of branch raids and break-ins over the past two years are included at Appendix B. The primary consideration in dealing with raids is the safety of staff and customers. In order to minimise the frequency of raids, the company adopts a policy of retaining a minimum amount of cash in the branch at all times. Very clear limits are imposed in this regard.

Priority is given to ensuring that all staff are familiar with security procedures. This starts at induction training and continues through in-branch training sessions. Where raids occur a full counselling service is immediately put in place to deal with post traumatic stress and this is followed through for as long as required in each individual case.

Chairman

We now have Mr. Liam O'Dwyer, the chief executive officer of the Irish League of Credit Unions, and Mr. Pat Fay, the general manager. They are very welcome and I thank them for coming.

Mr. Liam O’Dwyer

I am not actually joined, believe it or not, by Pat Fay but by Ciaran Bishop. That was an error.

Chairman

Mr. Bishop is very welcome.

Mr. O’Dwyer

First, as an introduction I shall put a context on where we would be coming from. The Irish League of Credit Unions is the trade association and representative body for credit unions in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Currently affiliated to the ILCU are 535 credit unions. There are eight credit unions in the Republic of Ireland and over 70 in Northern Ireland not affiliated.

In addition to its role as a trade association and representative body, the ILCU offers a range of services in the spirit of co-operation to its member credit unions. These include insurance, foreign exchange, investment management, marketing, pension provision, risk management services and monitoring among others. Training of board directors, supervisors and staff and the design and dissemination of best practice in terms of, say, health and safety, human resources, governance, information technology and security are key roles of the ILCU.

Credit unions are regulated by a registrar of credit unions, reporting to IFSRA, via the Credit Union Act 1997. The credit unions are not for profit, volunteer governed financial co-operatives with both social and economic objectives. Each credit union - this is important - is a separate legal entity with limited liability and affiliates to the ILCU if it wishes. The ILCU therefore is not the head office of all credit unions nor are the credit unions branch offices of the league. Current total credit union membership in Ireland is 2.5 million with an asset base of €10 billion.

As mentioned earlier the ILCU has a role in the training, risk management and design of best practice standards and crime prevention is a key aspect of this. The ILCU has a security and crime prevention training program supported by a handbook on best practice. The implementation of this best practice will vary from credit union to credit union due to the nature and size of the business conducted by credit unions. The staffing in credit unions varies from purely voluntary staff to professional staff members of up to 30.

The relationship that credit unions in general have with the local gardaí is a supportive one whereby the Garda is made aware of large cash transfers to banks and accompany such transfers. There is also a close relationship in terms of the carrying out of crime prevention audits, particularly in newly designed or renovated credit unions. The larger credit unions would employ security firms to transfer cash. Gardaí are regular visitors to our regional meetings and advise on fraud, security and crime prevention matters. They would also visit individual credit unions at our request to advise best practice in relation to security arrangements.

All new credit union buildings are designed with security and crime prevention in mind. This ensures that there are access control principles applied, differentiating between public zones, reception zones, operation zones and security zones. Each of these has their own access rules and all are covered by CCTV. External measures such as open low landscaping so that there are no hiding places, CCTV, access codes to the main building and dual entry controls to ensure that two authorised people are entering and exiting at the same time are generally in place. Many buildings are now fitted with security hatches for the transfer of cash inward and outward via security van, again under surveillance by CCTV.

Newly built or renovated credit unions are clearly built to particular specifications of reinforced concrete to hold time locking safes. In general the design principle is to have open plan public, operation and reception zones to eliminate hiding places and monitored alarm and panic button systems and bullet proof glass from counter to ceiling to protect staff. Often doors from access zone to access zone are electronic PIN number controlled. All of this is monitored by CCTV. Clear signs are erected in all credit unions indicating that such security and crime prevention measures have been put in place to deter possible criminals.

The two most obvious risk areas in credit unions are the transfer of cash from the credit union to a local bank or from the credit union to the member. A risk analysis is conducted in all credit unions at regular intervals in respect of all security risks but in particular in respect of the safety of staff transferring cash and members withdrawing cash. They are of paramount importance. Determining the probability of a security breach will reduce the risk profile and that is why we ensure that these risk profiles are conducted on a monthly basis. From a staff viewpoint credit unions are moving to the use of security personnel to transfer cash. The norm is that such transfers occur at different times of the day using a variety of routes. Where staff are transferring cash this is done with the assistance of the Garda. Credit unions do not lodge their cash on a daily basis to ensure that no patterns can be observed.

Credit union staff members requested to convert another member's personal cheque to cash will alert the member to the security implications of that and advise that proper precautions are taken regarding keeping such money concealed and they always recommend bringing a companion if possible. The staff are all trained to comply with the requests from the perpetrators of a robbery utilising the panic buttons when it is safe to do so and contacting the Garda immediately afterwards by phone or radio. Staff receive training in recall and identification procedures and have immediate access to counsellors to assist them with the trauma that can follow from such a frightening event. Equally, our training modules on security have guidelines on hostage taking and how staff could cope and react in those situations.

Ms Rhona Baker

I am the property manager of Irish Nationwide Building Society and I am accompanied by Mr. Paul Brett, the retail deposits manager. Irish Nationwide Building Society is one of Ireland's oldest financial institutions having been established in 1873. It has 50 branches in Ireland, 19 in Dublin and 31 outside Dublin. It employs over 400 staff. The society offers a range of saving and investment products together with a range of mortgage and loan related products for both residential and commercial customers. The society is committed to the highest possible security standards for the safety, health and welfare of its employees and the safety of the members of the public using the society's premises in the normal course of business. The society's policy is to operate so as not to endanger staff, customers or the general public.

A detailed statement of security policies and procedures is in place and all branch staff are fully aware of the policies and are trained to comply with the procedures. The security policies and procedures were compiled internally with the assistance of an independent security consultant. This document deals with security policies and procedures under three main headings, effective cash management and awareness, electronic and physical security features in the branches and the procedures in the event of a raid or in the unlikely event of a kidnapping.

All staff are trained in effective cash management and all branches adhere to strict cash limits at the counter. Staff are made aware that careless handling of cash and insufficient attention to security procedures increases the likelihood of raids and personal attacks. Irish Nationwide Building Society has attempted to minimise the amount of cash held in branches. The aim of this policy is to reduce the attractiveness for raiders. A practical measure that the society took recently was to cease to offer foreign exchange at its branches. When handling foreign exchange cash balances were higher and the risks outweighed the benefits of providing the service.

The standard security features in every branch are intruder alarms, panic buttons, personal attack buttons for staff, closed circuit television, timelocks on tills and safes and security doors leading to behind the counters. Additional security features in certain branches include security screens and anti-bandit screens and full-time security guards in particular branches which have suffered from repeated raids. The physical and electronic security features in our branches are under constant review and the property manager visits each branch at least annually to complete a security check list. Any proposed improvements in branch security are implemented immediately.

The personal safety and well being of all staff members and customers is the primary concern in the event of a raid. While every effort is made to prevent raids, branch staff are told that in the event of a raid no action must be taken that might jeopardise the safety of staff or customers. We have implemented procedures to be followed by staff in the event of a raid and recognising the trauma of a raid we offer provision for post-raid counselling for staff and customers involved in such incidents. We have had ongoing consultations over the years with gardaí at local and senior level and we are now represented on the security committee of the Irish Bankers Federation which has monthly meetings with Garda authorities. Crime prevention measures are put in place to deter raiders, to protect staff and customers, and in the event of a raid, to aid the Garda Síochána with the arrest and prosecution of suspects.

The current measures are under constant review but as a result of these measures we have been very successful recently in reducing the number of raids and the amount stolen from our branches. Fortunately, no one has ever been seriously physically injured in a raid on any of the society's premises. Irish Nationwide Building Society is committed, through a programme of staff training, updating security enhancements and consultations with the Garda, to maintaining the highest possible security standards in order to protect the safety of all staff, customers and the general public.

Mr. John Trethowan

I am the chief operating officer of the National Irish Bank. We have 59 branches in the Republic of Ireland. National Irish Bank is committed to providing the best possible levels of security across its network and to the safety of our staff, customers and the general public. At NIB we gain both skill and expertise by working closely with our sister banks from National Australia Bank (Europe). We have a team of six specialist security advisers for Britain and Ireland, two of whom are based in Ireland. They are responsible for branch security, raids, and other security incident investigations. These specialists liaise closely with the other banks, the Garda, and the PSNI, to share information on best practice. We are on the Irish Bankers Federation security committee, which includes representatives of the Garda. We find the Garda particularly responsive and helpful and its detection rate for raids on our branches is good compared with the police services with which we deal elsewhere in Europe through our group.

We are also on the security committee of the Northern Ireland Bankers Association and of the European Bankers Federation and as such share best practice with all of those bodies. This enables us to monitor all raids against IBF affiliated banks and to study trends in terms of the geographical areas being targeted and the professionalism and the modus operandi of the criminals. This sort of analysis is constantly used to review and, where necessary, revise our security procedures.

Central to our strategy are four preventative steps. The first is making it harder for the offender through staff training and physical barriers such as bandit screens and the introduction of interlocking doors, which are a barrier to entry to and exit from the branches. The second is increasing the risk of being caught through CCTV and limited use of a smart water system which sprays raiders with a DNA impregnated spray. The third is reducing the rewards for crime through the timelocking of safes and tills and strict limits on the amount of cash that is held at counters and the use of smoke and dye packs. The fourth is to induce guilt or shame through PR and offering rewards. There is no one security feature which will stop raids. All that can be done is to increase the risk for the offenders being apprehended. There is a perception for instance that bandit screens stop raids but there is no evidence to support this view. They can make raids more prolonged and violent.

All our staff are trained in security and a booklet is available to the committee should it wish to examine it. In addition we carry out a quarterly review of raids to ensure staff are aware of the latest issues and any new emerging trends are shared with them. Whenever branch staff are subjected to a raid we provide support and counselling to help them deal with what can be a distressing and traumatic experience. Overall in Ireland, we assess the risk in National Irish as being lower than that of our sister bank in Northern Ireland. Over a ten year period the number of raids in the Republic has declined while over the same period there has been an increase in Northern Ireland.

We enjoy a high level of support and co-operation from the Garda and I would like to record my thanks and appreciation to the force.

Chairman

Thank you, Mr. Trethowan. We have a delegation from the PTSB group with Mr. Martin McDermott, general manager of branch banking, Mr. Maurice Devitt, general manager of operations, and Ms Linda Davis, assistant manager of the security and fraud department.

Mr. Maurice Devitt

Permanent TSB is the name of the retail banking business of Irish Life and Permanent plc. The bank has 111 branches and approximately 2,500 employees. The bank was formed by the merger in 2001 of the business of Irish Permanent and TSB.

The security and welfare of staff, customers and members of the public is a major concern of the bank, as it is in the wider Irish Life and Permanent group. Indeed, in considering this issue we are conscious, in particular, of the tragic death of one our of colleagues in what was then TSB, Ms Carol Walsh, who died during a raid in the New Ross branch 11 years ago. Given this incident and the ongoing threats that arise for financial institutions from criminal elements, Permanent TSB focuses particular attention and resources on this issue. In my role as general manager of operations I have overall responsibility for the security of the bank, its branches, our customers, members of the public and our employees while the day-to-day management of this function is undertaken by a dedicated security department.

This department was established originally in TSB eight years ago and now employs four people, headed by Mr. Tom Butler, retired head of the National Bureau of Criminal Investigation. Mr. Butler reports directly to me. Prior to joining the bank in 1995, Mr. Butler had served for over three decades in the Garda Síochána where he rose to the rank of detective chief superintendent. He brings an extraordinary and invaluable experience of investigation of crime and crime prevention to the post.

Our primary focus in respect of security and crime is prevention. The bank invests substantially in this area each year. The security department's functions include assessing the overall level of risk to the bank and its branches, working with individual branches to ensure that each employs an effective and appropriate security system for its individual needs, commissioning security systems and monitoring the maintenance of same and liaison with the Garda Síochána at a national and local level in respect of security issues. These functions also include reviewing security in the light of individual raids or incidents, liaison with representatives of the other banks in respect of their experience in this area and discussing emerging trends and developments with regard to this issue. Furthermore, the department is also responsible for organising and overseeing training for security issues for appropriate staff, the maintenance and revision of security manuals for branches and the facilitation of counselling, where necessary, for any customers or employees who might be present in a branch where an incident takes place.

With respect to the committee, I trust it will appreciate that it would not be appropriate to disclose specific details of the security measures we employ in branches. Nevertheless, I can confirm that as a result of detailed risk assessments which have taken place in the branch network, each branch has been equipped with a comprehensive intruder alarm system. This includes closed circuit television strategically placed within each branch, "panic alarm" buttons, controlled access, timelock and time delay devices on safes and strong rooms and anti-bandit screens.

We place particular emphasis on closed circuit television due to its effectiveness in the past and its proven ability to prevent crime as well as assisting the Garda in detection after the event. All security equipment used by the bank is of the highest quality and specification. Contracts are in place to ensure regular maintenance and testing of our security equipment. Likewise, all intruder alarm systems and closed circuit television systems are subject to 24-hour monitoring. I can confirm that our requirements in this area generally, and with regard to specific branches, are subject to regular review and assessment in light of our experiences and those of other banks in Ireland and the UK with whom we maintain a regular dialogue.

To that end, Mr. Tom Butler participates in monthly meetings with the associated banks and members representing the Garda Síochána, where matters of mutual interest are discussed with the object of ensuring best practice towards crime prevention. Informal meetings also take place regularly. In addition, the Irish Bankers Federation's security committee meets its counterpart in the British Bankers Federation once a year to discuss and review matters of mutual interests and security managers of the associated banks and Central Bank meet on a regular basis for discussions.

In the event of any criminal incident taking place in the bank, a full review of security takes place. Any measures necessary to assist in preventing a recurrence are implemented. Our security policy includes provision that if a raid takes place, post-raid assistance and counselling are offered to staff, customers and any members of the public who may have been on the premises at the time. The welfare of staff, customers and members of the public following a raid is of huge importance to Permanent TSB and the bank's concerns in this regard is reflected in the security policy and procedures document which is available in each branch. The objective at all times is to ensure a safe and secure working environment for staff, customers and members of the public attending to business on bank premises. Permanent TSB also has a crisis management team which consists entirely of senior management and which meets regularly throughout the year, engaging in simulated exercises designed to ensure readiness at all times. All matters related to security and safety are discussed and regularly reviewed. Towards this end, regular meetings take place with the Garda Síochána where matters of mutual interest are discussed and exchanged. The crisis management team is available to all staff throughout the network. Its main focus is directed towards kidnap, extortion and any other associated matter.

When measured over the last three years, Permanent TSB has experienced approximately eight incidents each year across its network of 111 branches and 148 ATMs. While our systems are designed to safeguard from the variety of threats, our experience is that these incidents are most likely to be perpetrated by petty criminals or gangs of mainly young criminals with drug addiction being a significant contributory factor. While these incidents tend to involve only very small sums of money being robbed from branches, they are nevertheless very traumatic incidents for employees, customers and members of the public.

To close, Chairman, may I take this opportunity to thank, in particular, the Garda Síochána for all its advice, support and assistance in this field. Its contribution to our work is invaluable and on behalf of all my colleagues, I wish to record our sincere appreciation to it.

Chairman

Thank you, Mr. Devitt. Last, but by no means least, the Ulster Bank witness, Mr. John West. Mr. West, what is your title?

Mr. John West

Director of manufacturing.

Chairman

That is what I have here but I did not believe it. There is also Mr. John Grant, regional security manager.

Mr. West

Thank you, Chairman. I represent Ulster Bank group. We are a subsidiary of Royal Bank of Scotland group, the fifth largest banking group in the world. As such, that gives us access to world class crime prevention and security prevention techniques. The safety of our staff and customers is a top priority for the Ulster Bank executive. In direct response to a specific and different security incident at the beginning of this year, we took it upon ourselves to invest an additional €1 million over and above our normal annual security budget to enhance our security infrastructure.

We have a branch network on the island of Ireland of 210 branches, of which 120 are in the Republic. All our branches are individually risk assessed. Based on that information, we take action to continually improve our security infrastructure. Some of the actions and improvements which we have been undertaking as a matter of course include upgrading our closed circuit television system. As recently as this summer, we carried out a survey of all the closed circuit televisions in all our branches. It confirmed to us that the images produced are of good quality in every location. Our closed circuit television footage has been instrumental in leading to the arrest of raiders on a few occasions this year.

We are introducing on a selected basis counter screens, timelocks interlocking doors, smoke and dye packs, window bars, opaque glass and additional locks on lower door chains. We are also introducing external ramps and railing and closing, on some occasions, car parks outside our branches. Those last measures are in response to a new phenomenon of "ramraid" style attacks on buildings.

Our ongoing branch security reviews are continually informed by new information by the changing modus operandi of the criminal fraternity and information we receive through our regular dialogue with the Garda Síochána. These reviews are carried out by our specialist security advisers who have extensive experience in crime prevention. Our latest review of branch network is due to complete next month. This was last carried out in the months leading up to the introduction of the euro, which at that time posed its own security risks. As regards the safety of our staff, we provide a 24-hour seven day a week alert line service for all our staff, through which they can receive personal safety advice both at work and at home. We provide a professional counselling service, available to our staff in the event of a raid or even in the event of personal or domestic trauma. That service is also available to our customers if they become involved in a raid situation. We have extensive training programmes to assist and support staff and customer security, including videos which are distributed and viewed in all our branches, and guidelines and procedures issued to all branches. We provide training for scenarios such as kidnap situations, and all of our branches and our ATMs have comprehensive around-the-clock alarm monitoring, including intruder alarms and panic alarms.

In terms of managing security, in Ireland we have two dedicated and experienced security managers who provide on the ground expertise. They are supported by a larger Royal Bank of Scotland group security team based in Edinburgh but frequently visiting Ireland to assist and provide its own specialist expertise. In support of our security managers we have in the Republic of Ireland nine area operations managers, each responsible for a group of branches. A key part of their role is to check the application and awareness of control measures in relation to security and other necessary bank controls in all our branches. Beneath that level of control our branch managers and our staff in all branches receive ongoing training in security measures.

We are very conscious that the cause of raids and the temptation for them is the presence of cash, and therefore we have a strategy to remove the cause of the raids by applying strict counter limits at all our cash positions. In addition, each of our branches has a strict cash holding limit assessed and agreed with our security advisers. In conjunction with all the banks we are implementing a strategy to promote electronic payments, and I believe that is working successfully. Indeed I saw it reported yesterday in the press that the number of laser card transactions in the Republic is due to increase this year from 55 million to 70 million, all geared towards taking cash out of circulation, out of our customers' tills, out of our tills and out of the banking area.

In further support we promote a service where all our large cash lodging customers are offered the facility to lodge directly to our cash centre in the centre of Dublin rather than bringing that cash through the branches with an increased risk for them and for our branch staff.

It is a matter of staying alert and being prepared, and that is supported by formal monthly meetings with the Garda. We have numerous informal meetings on an ad hoc basis to gather ongoing information and in response to specific incidents. We regularly meet the security advisers of other banks. We have a rolling programme of security reviews and audits to continually test and challenge our awareness and preparedness, and we have an ongoing investment and training programme to maintain our defences and to anticipate what else might be coming around the corner.

Chairman

Thank you very much, Mr. West. Before I call on the Garda, I would like to invite one representative each from ACC, AIB, An Post, Bank of Ireland and the EBS to join in the final discussion. I am sure that from all of the presentations made today there are certain good points which can be picked out by Assistant Garda Commissioner Joe Egan and Inspector Pat McCabe. I hope the presentations have been useful to them in the furtherance of crime prevention. I ask them to respond briefly to the various presentations and to the discussion.

Assistant Commissioner Joe Egan

First and foremost, from our perspective the security awareness, and more important the delivery of service by all the financial institutions represented here today, is of the highest order and very professional. The committee will have gathered from the presentations that there is a fairly comprehensive ongoing interaction between the Garda and all the institutions. Best practice is continually being brought to the board. John West outlined in his presentation the huge international back-up his institution has. In general we have found that what he has spoken of is being delivered here on the ground by the institutions. That is a good sign.

Our main concerns have to do with crime prevention and the investigation of crime. We also need to see that the taxpayers get value for their money in relation to the vulnerable and the old going about their lawful day to day business, so that they can do that safely and securely.

Crime prevention as opposed to allowing raids to take place delivers a lot of benefits to the taxpayer. It is in our interests to get involved in this area and to be leaders in it. Much Garda time is taken up in investigation of crime but it is much better to prevent crime. In the overall context, while we have a lot of interaction with the financial institutions on crime prevention, we also have it with a much broader family - with the neighbourhood watches, community alerts, small individual groups in housing estates, and also with the smaller institutions such as pharmacies, corner grocery shops and so on. All of this comes together to cumulatively create a better society where people can go about safely without the fear of robbery. We have an overarching role to play in this, and that is brought to the table in these discussions too.

Most of the points have been raised and we need go no further but to verify that the discussions referred to take place in a very professional setting. We know most of the people here from the different fora and from meeting them. It is not just a matter of presentations being made today - this work is live and ongoing and we more than welcome it.

There were a number of individual points aired by Senator Walsh and Deputy Hoctor in relation to CCTV. There are many misconceptions in this area. Regarding partnership, there is a huge amount of partnership in the CCTV area. The committee will be aware that some time ago the Government announced the new method of delivery of CCTV in different locations around the country under four headings, the first being where the Garda applies for CCTV, for example, in a town or specific area. Naturally enough, that is fully funded by the State. The second is where the commercial organisations, including the financial groups, small shops and so on, come together generally under the aegis of the chambers of commerce and request CCTV for their general area. That is also part-funded by the State. The third category involves individual local authorities requesting CCTV, and the final category involves local estates and communities requiring CCTV for their own specific needs, whether it be in municipal housing or whatever.

The one criterion we have now set down in that area is that CCTV will not be funded by the State unless those requesting it subscribe to a set method in terms of the technology installed. That is meant to address the issues of poor quality and so on, in other words, we have set a minimum standard. Many of the institutions represented here have exceeded that standard and that is fine, but we require the minimum standard, and we hope to bring that to the table with all the individual groups as well. That should improve things. In relation to bad CCTV images, and there have been some very bad images emerging over the years, it is a waste of money putting CCTV in if results cannot be obtained from them. Such images were the result of poor maintenance, not changing the tapes for long periods and so on. That has been overcome to a certain extent now with modern technology. The digital systems have a longer time span regarding maintenance. I expect to see a huge improvement in that area. I agree that we must constantly keep in contact in that regard. It is wasted time and money if these cameras are not delivering the desired result. However, there has been a substantial improvement in the area.

Chairman

One of the two things coming over very strongly is the banks' desire for a cashless society as far as possible. I would like further input from the financial institutions leaving aside the duties on credit cards. The other matter is on-line banking. I know that that major issue was already brought up. Before that, perhaps I might ask Mr. Trethowan about the DNA spray he mentioned, which I had not heard about. Is it at the leading edge? How does it work?

Senator Walsh

Perhaps I might add that I presumed from what Mr. Trethowan said that the interlocking doors mentioned were a new initiative.

Mr. Trethowan

We have used the DNA spray in a limited number of branches. We introduced it last year to higher risk offices. Whenever the panic buttons are hit in the branch, they begin to spray an invisible mist at the door. The raider then runs through that mist. It is "finger-printed" to that specific office, and for a limited period thereafter, if the Garda has a suspect and uses ultraviolet light, the person will glow. It is therefore a method of detection. We can "finger-print" back to a specific location and do the same with the spray pattern that the person has run through.

The interlocking doors are a system that we use in the Northern Bank in Northern Ireland, where we have had a problem with raids. It is a system of two doors, where one walks into a cubicle and is held there for a period, after which time the second door is opened and one gains access to the branch. Similarly, when one comes out, one must go back through the arrangement.

Chairman

Perhaps Mr. West might address the question of on-line banking, and whether it is a tool to reduce the number of bank raids.

Mr. West

It is a tool in the broader sense to reduce the volume of cash in circulation by providing alternative means of making payments. The volume of cheques in circulation is in decline, but the volume of cash in circulation is rising, even with on-line and alternative banking methods. We provide postal, telephone and Internet banking services. Those are widely promoted through all our branches, and in pricing we attempt to steer customers towards on-line or electronic banking services through levying a lower charge per transaction than on paper.

Chairman

I have used both Internet and telephone banking - 24-hour banking - but one has to remember too many numbers. Is there some way that that might be simplified?

Mr. Hickey

I had better respond to that. We try to keep it to a minimum, but to move to fewer numbers than at present would significantly reduce the level of security, which is very important.

Chairman

One needs one to get in, then five for the code, and then up to 16 other numbers, for example the end of one's telephone number or one's date of birth. In all, one must remember 29 different numbers to get into Internet banking.

Mr. Hickey

Most of them, one hopes, are numbers familiar to the customer, for example, phone numbers. The ultimate objective is that customers will be consistently reassured. When we developed the service in the first place, we employed statistical analysis as to the chances of something going wrong. The reassurance for customers is terribly important in that the satisfaction level with it is extremely high. Indeed, coupling that with a response to the Deputy, I can say that close to 40% of our customers are using telephone and Internet banking. It is now taking off very quickly, though it is a relatively new service. It has only been there for about nine years, but it is catching on. I echo Mr. West's comments that it will help reduce significantly the amount of cash in circulation over time.

Chairman

Mr. Kirwan, Deputy Hoctor raised a point regarding security measures at side-of-street ATMs. Many people feel insecure.

Mr. Kirwan

That is something on which each bank will carry out a risk analysis for each site. There is no general principle of what goes in with each ATM. In the Dublin area, Bank of Ireland and most of the other banks would have CCTV in what would be regarded as high risk locations for attacks. From time to time the Garda would inform us that attacks were happening in a certain area. Perhaps drug addicts would be hanging out there. In that case, CCTV would be installed. Someone mentioned CCTV as not being the answer to everything. Most of the attacks are being carried out by people with a drug problem. They will rob people for very small amounts of money, perhaps as little as €10 or €20, just to get their fix on a given day. The deterrent value normally associated with a camera does not necessarily apply to those people. They simply ignore it, go in and get their money. Whether they are subsequently arrested, charged, imprisoned for that does not enter their mind on the day in question. It therefore does not have the same deterrent value as it would in a bank branch itself.

Chairman

Senator Walsh had two questions, the first concerning co-operation between banks in the use of leading edge technology and the second partnerships with local authorities.

Senator Walsh

The co-operation seems to be coming across through the IBF. I believe that the assistant commissioner mentioned that, and it seems to be working well. Indeed, there seems to be very good collaboration. On CCTV, I accept what Assistant Commissioner Egan said. However, I am from New Ross. Mr. Devitt said that we had particular reason there to be familiar with it. The strange thing about the murder of Carol Walsh, who was a lovely person, was that she had a tremendous phobia about being in the bank if it was raided. It was sadly prophetic. We have been applying for CCTV, but because of limited resources, we are not making any progress. I am sure that there are many towns in that position and it strikes me as being an ideal opportunity for partnership between the financial institutions, the Garda and the local authority to come together and subscribe to do this. It might be another element in achieving it. I agree fully that it should be done to the correct standard.

Chairman

Does anyone wish to take up that point on co-operation between local authorities, the Garda and banks?

Senator Walsh

AIB, Bank of Ireland and TSB are in New Ross. Would they be agreeable to assisting financially with a pilot scheme there to see what happened?

Mr. Kirwan

All the banks have subscribed to the one which operates in the city centre of Dublin. The most important feature there is that it is of a high standard. It certainly has the approval of the gardaí. From time to time people come along with what might be good ideas, but if the whole operation is not managed well from start to finish, one will not get the expected benefit from it.

Chairman

Does Deputy Hoctor wish to ask a question?

Deputy Hoctor

I had asked about the services provided by the Army in transporting cash.

Chairman

Unfortunately that matter is currently being dealt with by the Committee of Public Accounts; it is getting serious consideration there. Tradition dictates that I leave the matter to it.

Senator Walsh

Perhaps I might make one final point regarding Mr. Farrell's presentation. He said that the Government and its agencies are major generators of inefficient and costly paper based payments. I was wondering if he might expand on that. I came across an incident recently where someone who was registered for a disabled vehicle was asked for IR£5,000 cash. It would not be taken any other way. In this day and age, that seems totally contrary to how we should be going.

Chairman

Does anyone have a final question?

Mr. Farrell

I have probably explained the matter already. There are many payments made to people that are paper based - the various payments generated by the State. If a way could be found to get these electronic based, that would do much to remove cash from the system.

Chairman

Does anyone wish to comment further on anything it is felt the committee should be aware of in relation to this matter - and that might help to clarify the whole issue?

Mr. Hickey

On a positive note, I should like to comment on something Senator Walsh said earlier about cards and electronic payments. I speak for AIB, and I think all the financial institutions provide plastic debit, credit and ATM cards free of charge. The transactions associated with them cost significantly less to customers than paper transactions.

Chairman

Thank you.

Mr. Kirwan

I would just like to clarify something that has been touched on by a number of people. Security within banks is non-competitive. All the banks' security people meet regularly. Mention was made of the fact we meet once a month formally with the Garda, where everything in terms of crime terms, strategies used by criminals, crime prevention techniques, whatever, is debated - and shared. The security advisers of the main banks meet informally from time to time as well. In terms of international benchmarking, we meet with the British Bankers Association once a year and we also have representation at the European Banking Federation, at which countermeasures against crime trends developing across Europe and Britain - which can become our problem - are reviewed.

Assistant Commissioner Egan

One area that we still might have some difficulty with and which is outside the remit of the financial institutions was touched on by Liam O'Dwyer in relation to the model for the buildings etc., namely, the green field sites where financial institutions will eventually locate. A weakness exists there all the time in the relation to the services surrounding the delivery and collection of cash, and the safety of people using the centres. The big centres are built, then the financial institutions take units in them. At the early planning stage if permission is being sought to build shopping centres or whatever, it should be specified if financial institutions are to be located within them. Then proper procedures for delivery of cash, the location of ATM machines, etc., could be provided for at that stage. It is causing huge problems in relation to safety, security and resources.

Chairman

That is a matter that should be taken up at local authority level as well. I thank you very much for appearing before the committee today. I found it most interesting. Also, I am delighted to hear that such a proactive approach is being taken to security measures within the financial institutions - and that all the measures as they become known are shared among the various institutions. I also want to thank the Garda for its co-operation. It is in all our interests that the public are aware that the best measures possible are being put in place. I believe you confirmed today that that is so and we will continue to keep a watching brief on the whole issue of security.

If there are any other comments anyone wishes to make, please feel free to do so, in writing. We are now going to go into private session and you are all excused. Thank you.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.45 p.m. until 2.40 p.m. on Tuesday, 30 September 2003.