JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS debate -
Thursday, 13 May 2004

Visit of Delegation from the National Assembly of the Republic of Korea.

Chairman

I welcome Mr. Hyung Keun Chung and Mr. Seung-huie Ham, members of the Intelligence Committee of the National Republic of Korea to this meeting of the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights. We have a very broad remit. As well as matters relating to justice and defence, we also deal with other matters.

I am delighted the members of your committee have come here. I spent some time in South Korea as a member of the Committee on Public Accounts some two or three years ago around St. Patrick's Day. I remember the morning of St. Patrick's Day in the Irish Embassy in Seoul. It was a strange place in which to eat Irish stew and drink Guinness.

In the Justice and Home Affairs portfolio, there is much work being done by this committee on the whole subject of international terrorism. The appalling outrage in Madrid on 11 March brought home to us in Europe the possibility that any country in Europe could be subjected to this form of international terrorism. It is a matter, which is on the minds not only of people in Korea but also of people throughout the world.

Perhaps Mr. Chung or Mr. Ham would explain the purpose of their visit and ask any questions they have, and then members of the committee will answer and ask questions.

Mr. Hyung Chung

(Via translator) I thank the committee, especially the Chairman, Deputy Seán Ardagh, and the Vice-Chairman, Deputy Paul McGrath, for receiving our delegation. Until 1994 the Defence Committee handled intelligence matters. In 1992 the Intelligence Committee was set up and that committee now handles these matters.

Ireland is very popular in Korea because its economy developed very rapidly. Many people in Korea therefore have good feelings towards Ireland. Also our government officials can learn something from the Irish experience.

Our delegation would like to know how the Dáil handles intelligence matters and how it processes sensitive information. How does the committee get information from Government agencies and how does it handle such matters? Regarding that kind of information we would write to our National Assembly's Intelligence Committee about procedures and arrangements.

Let us introduce ourselves. On my left is Deputy Ham, the former prosecutor. At the moment he is teaching. He is also a member of the Intelligence Committee. To his left is Mr. Namgung, a member of the National Assembly Secretariat. He handles Intelligence Committee matters. I myself am a former prosecutor and have been a member of the Korean National Assembly three times.

Chairman

I would like to introduce the members of the committee who are here today. On my right is Deputy Finian McGrath, an Independent Member for Dublin North-Central. Beside him is Deputy Joe Costello, spokesperson for the Labour Party on this committee. Beside Deputy Costello is Deputy Jim O'Keeffe, a solicitor who is spokesperson for Fine Gael. He is representing the Vice-Chairman, Deputy Paul McGrath, who is unavoidably absent and sends his apologies. Next is Deputy Peter Power who is also a lawyer with a highly reputable firm in the city of Limerick. He is a member of Fianna Fáil, the governing party. Beside Deputy Power is Senator Timmy Dooley. Senator Dooley is representing Senator Tony Kett who is unavoidably absent and also sends his apologies. Next to Senator Dooley is Senator Diarmuid Wilson from Fianna Fáil, representing Senator Jim Walsh who is also unavoidably absent. Next is Deputy Máire Hoctor, Fianna Fáil member and convenor for the Government party on this committee.

This committee does not get intelligence. All civil servants operate under the Official Secrets Act 1963, and certain information is available under the Freedom of Information Act 1997. There is, therefore, a balance between openness and transparency. There is also the potential for the Parliament to scrutinise certain matters. However, military or sensitive terrorist information relating to national security is not disclosed, and there is no desire or need on the part of the Parliament to be informed on these matters. We are not under threat from any side. All the countries surrounding us are friends and neighbours with whom we live in peace and harmony, trading economically and in every other way.

Recently the Oireachtas asked this committee to investigate bombings that happened in Dublin in 1974 in which 34 people were killed. We were asked to try to find out more about who the perpetrators were, whether there was collusion between security forces and the perpetrators, and to examine the Garda investigation into the bombings and the related documents. We have only recently completed our report.

Let me now invite Deputy Costello to ask questions and to welcome you to the meeting.

Deputy Costello

I welcome you to this committee. It is very valuable for us to meet our counterparts from parliaments in other countries. This is the first visit we have had from South Korea. It is an honour for us.

This committee deals with all legislation introduced and passed in Parliament. Our committee is instrumental in processing all legislation relating to matters of justice. That is our most important function. I would be interested to know the extent of the powers of the Justice Committee in the Republic of Korea. Does it investigate matters of state secrecy, or does it deal largely with matters of domestic justice and home affairs within the Republic of Korea?

Mr. Seung-Huie Ham

(via translator) I am pleased to be here today. I am a member of the Intelligence Committee. I am also the Deputy Chairman of the Justice Committee.

The Korean justice committee has three main functions. Its first function is to monitor and control the organisation of the prosecutor's office and courts. The second function is to review the budget of the prosecutor's office and courts. At year end, the committee reviews how the money was spent. On the third function, when each committee wants to legislate it must go through the justice committee. The justice committee examines draft Acts and decides whether or not they are legally correct and not in violation of our constitution. The committee gives its legal advice on each piece of legislation.

Deputy Costello

I am a member of the Labour Party. Those of us on this side of the Chamber are in Opposition. Our function is to scrutinise the legislation and proposals of the Government, to monitor and check what they are doing and to try to improve the proposals.

Our functions relate mainly to legislation. We have no function over the courts, which are separate. The courts operate independently of Parliament and therefore we do not monitor the courts.

We also look at the budget and examine the Estimates.

Mr. Hahm

The Korean justice committee does not intervene in court procedures. The justice committee just scrutinises the budget, how the courts spend the money. If the courts suggest their budget, the justice committee decides whether that budget is acceptable or not.

Deputy F. McGrath

I welcome the delegation to Ireland. My colleagues and I are delighted to have the delegation in Ireland and I hope they enjoy the rest of their visit. As they probably will be aware, Irish people and the people of Korea have a great deal in common. We share a great passion for sports, for instance. Sadly Korea is divided into North Korea and South Korea. Ireland is also divided and we have that in common. That brings me to my first question. With the friction between North Korea and South Korea, is there any movement towards a coming together of your peoples?

My next question relates to intelligence. We in this part of the world are receiving reports that in North Korea there are camps where people are being tortured and humiliated. Is that information accurate? Are such acts taking place or is that just propaganda? Many groups like Amnesty International have concerns that such camps exist in North Korea.

We in Ireland have a drugs problem. What is this problem like in Korea? Is the situation deteriorating or are measures having any impact on the problem?

Mr. Hahm

I thank the Deputy for his interest in the Korean peninsular matter. Unfortunately, as the Deputy may be aware, Korea is one of the solitary areas where communism and democracy are conflicting. It is a sad story.

One of the biggest issues is the North Korean nuclear issue. Many states suspect that North Korea has developed nuclear weapons and exports them to rogue states. That is our biggest worry. The Korean Government expects the Irish Government's support in resolving this nuclear issue peacefully and diplomatically.

Our Government is also very worried about North Korean human rights. The reports on this matter by the international media are quite close to the facts. As the committee will be aware, however, North Korea is quite a closed society and they do not allow international monitoring organisations or bodies access to North Korea. Unfortunately we therefore cannot confirm whether or not those are the facts. Our Government wants to maintain close co-operation with other international organisations to improve the human rights situation in North Korea.

Our Government is also quite worried about the drugs issue. Korea has been used as a transit point for drugs, which are produced in south-east Asia and whose final destination is Japan or the United States. In the past amphetamines were produced but nowadays that has stopped.

Chairman

Our concept of intelligence revolves more around criminal intelligence about the whereabouts and actions of drug lords and about families in possession of guns. It also involves intelligence co-operation between, for instance, France, Germany, Holland, Ireland, England and Spain; and a greater intelligence flow to Europol, the European policing organisation, and from those countries to the Garda Síochána and the Irish security services at the operational level. The generality of what is going on would come up to the Parliament level. Into how much detail of the operational intelligence matters does the Intelligence Committee get?

Mr. Chung

The Korean Intelligence Committee takes care of much more business than the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights. In the Korean justice committee the biggest issue is North Korea. North Korean intelligence is the most important business for the Intelligence Committee. The second most important business is intelligence about terrorism. The third is how to protect confidential information about technology and industrially sensitive information.

The Korean Intelligence Committee meetings are held once every two months. If some specific sensitive issue arises, the committee can be convened on an ad hoc basis so that the heads of the organisations may report to the Intelligence Committee on that issue.

The Korean Intelligence Committee has significant power. It is composed of 12 members: six from the Opposition and six from the Government party. The Intelligence Committee can ask the intelligence agency to report about some issue. If, following receipt of the report, they seek some advice or have a request, they can ask that agency.

The Korean intelligence agency budget is decided by the intelligence committee. Therefore the Intelligence Committee controls that agency through the budget. The agency must report to the committee on how it spends that budget.

I am quite curious about the fact that the Dáil does not have an intelligence committee. How does the Dáil handle situations where an Irish intelligence organisation wants to report confidential information to it?

Chairman

Deputy Power will answer that question and address the matter of confidentiality and other intelligence matters to the best of his ability.

Deputy P. Power

Like my colleagues, I welcome the Korean delegation to our country. I compliment South Korea on its fabulous hosting of the soccer World Cup in 2002. It brought great credit to their nation and was a very successful event.

There is no legal or constitutional facility through which the Executive, the Government, may give intelligence information to the Dáil. This committee's remit is to oversee legislation and to look into matters of justice and human rights, but we really do not have any remit in the intelligence arena, which is entirely a matter for the Executive - the Government - ]and State intelligence agencies.

Chairman

We have been joined by the Vice-Chairman of the committee, Deputy Paul McGrath, and by the Defence spokesperson of the main Opposition party, Deputy McGinley.

Deputy Hoctor

I, too, join with my colleagues in giving the delegation a warm welcome to Dublin and to Ireland and I hope they enjoy the rest of their stay. While the committee is largely engaged in justice issues, we also are involved in the areas of defence, including the Army, Air Corps and the Naval Service, in the areas of equality and disability, and in other areas that embrace the concept of equality and women's rights. Is there provision within the remit of the committee the delegation represents for these areas or are there other committees, which take care of them?

Mr. Chung

The Korean National Assembly has six committees set up to deal with the matters handled by the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights. We have separate committees for justice and defence. There is a committee on women's rights and another on human rights. Each separate committee handles the business relevant to it.

Chairman

Mr. Hahm is a member of the justice committee. To how many committees does each member of the Assembly belong?

Mr. Hahm

The Korean National Assembly has 18 standing committees and five special committees. The number of members in each committee depends on the particular committee concerned. For example, the justice committee is composed of 16 members and the construction and transport committee is composed of 13 members.

Chairman

Time is at a premium. As the members wish to express their welcome to the delegation, I will ask each of the members to do so. They may have questions to which the delegation may respond.

Senator Dooley

I join my colleagues in extending an Irish welcome to the delegation. While I am not sure of the delegation's itinerary, I hope they will get an opportunity to see a little of the country outside of the city.

My question has to do with the level of intelligence delivered to their committee. Do issues of confidentiality arise there? Has information been revealed which the committee preferred would not have been disclosed? How does their committee deal with that? Has it had any repercussions in terms of the overall security of their country?

Senator Wilson

I do not wish to ask a question but I join other members in welcoming the delegation to Ireland. I hope they enjoy the visit. I am not sure whether this is the end or the beginning of the visit, or how long they will stay, but I hope they get an opportunity to visit the northern part of the country from where I come.

Senator Dooley

I should also have stated that the delegation is welcome to visit Clare.

Mr. Chung

In the Korean National Assembly confidentiality is sometimes a hot potato, especially if committee members of the Opposition party inform the Korean or international media about confidential information so that the issue is politicised. Since the Intelligence Committee was set up in 1994, that kind of issue of disclosure of confidential information to the media has been taken care of. If a committee member divulges the confidential information discussed at the committee, he or she may go to jail for five years.

Deputy P. McGrath

I also welcome the deputation. I apologise for not being here at 9.30 a.m. to greet them. Unfortunately, as they will be aware, in political life meetings can sometimes run late. I was delayed and could not join the committee in time, but I am glad to be here now to welcome them. In the 15 years that I have been a member of the Dáil it is the first time I have had the honour of meeting a deputation from the National Assembly of the Republic of Korea and I sincerely welcome the deputation on that basis.

I note some of the comments that have been made to date and, in particular, Mr. Chung's last comment that members who leak information to the press might get five years in jail. We in this country would have a major difficulty if that was to be the case because not only would Opposition Members be in jail but those in the highest ranks could also spend five years in jail. Sometimes the leaking of information is more beneficial to the Government than to the Opposition.

I hope the deputation is enjoying the visit to Ireland. I note that they are returning to Korea tomorrow and therefore they will not get an opportunity of meeting us in the country. There is life outside Dublin——

Deputy Costello

Not much.

Deputy P. McGrath

——albeit, as my colleague would say, of a low standard. Outside the city there are uncluttered roadways and countryside.

On a more serious note, perhaps the deputation can comment briefly on the role of defence and security within their state and the percentage of funding spent on defence, security and intelligence. That would be of interest to me.

Deputy McGinley

I also wish to extend the delegation a céad míle fáilte to the committee and apologise for being late for their arrival. Some of my colleagues have mentioned counties Clare and Cavan. I represent County Donegal in the north of this country. There is a famous Donegal man, Fr. McGlinchey, whose brother, Senator Bernard McGlinchey, was a member of these House for many years representing the Chairman's party. I understand Fr. McGlinchey is doing excellent work in Korea. He is a farmer and an entrepreneur. Perhaps he is more of an entrepreneur than a missionary priest, but he is doing excellent work there. We read regularly about his activities in Korea and I wonder whether the delegation has heard of him.

My colleagues mentioned defence, which is my area. It must play an important role in their country. I have two questions for them. Could they give us an idea of the percentage of Korea's GNP devoted to defence? Does their country participate in UN peacekeeping missions abroad?

Mr. Chung

The Korean Government's total budget for defence alone is approximately 13% of GNP. The security and intelligence related budget is confidential and we do not know how large that budget is, but it is very big.

Deputy P. McGrath

Is it bigger than the defence budget?

Mr. Hahm

No, the intelligence related budget is considerably less than the defence budget. As the committee will be aware, Korea has approximately 600,000 soldiers and therefore the defence budget is much bigger than the security budget.

The intelligence budget is divided in two: one part relates to domestic intelligence and the other to overseas intelligence. Taken together, the domestic intelligence budget and the overseas intelligence budget account for a large portion of the Korean GNP. There are approximately ten intelligence related agencies altogether. The total budget of these organisations is quite big.

Mr. Chung

North Korea has 1.2 million soldiers. It is the second biggest army in the world. As the committee may understand, we are facing North Korea which maintains a high state of military preparedness. Therefore we must maintain large intelligence related agencies with large budgets.

I note that Ireland has a similar history to Korea. When I arrived here I felt some familiarity with Ireland. As I have said, Ireland is one of most popular countries among Koreans. Many Korean people want to know about Ireland. Personally I want relations between the two countries to develop and I would like Members of the Dáil and Seanad to visit Korea in the future.

Chairman

Thank you. Unfortunately, the meeting must conclude because the Dáil is due to sit. I thank members of the delegation for an interesting exchange of views. I hope they enjoyed the meeting and found the exchange of views useful. We wish them well and hope they enjoy the rest of their visit. We wish them a safe journey home tomorrow.

The joint committee adjourned at 10.35 a.m. until 4 p.m. Wednesday, 19 May 2004.