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JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS debate -
Wednesday, 12 Oct 2005

Child Care: Presentations.

I welcome everyone to the meeting, the purpose of which is to assist the committee in the preparation of a report on issues relating to child care. The committee has appointed Deputy Jim O'Keeffe, the Fine Gael spokesperson on justice, to act as rapporteur. It is expected that the committee's report will be published in mid-November.

I welcome Dr. Joanna McMinn, director, Ms Orla O'Connor, head of policy, and Ms Claire Dunne, policy outreach facilitator, from the National Women's Council of Ireland. I also welcome Ms Sylda Langford, assistant secretary, and Ms Moira O'Mara, principal officer, from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, who will make a presentation after the National Women's Council of Ireland, and Dr. Tony Crooks from ADM.

Ms Orla O’Connor

The National Women's Council of Ireland, NWCI, is grateful for the opportunity to meet with the committee today to discus the critical issue of child care. The NWCI, along with many NGOs involved in women's and children's rights and child care, welcomes the fact that child care has been given priority on the political agenda. Our key issue and concern is that the appropriate decisions will be taken that will lead to a long-term sustainable solution for children and their parents. What is different this time is that there is a significant consensus of views on many of the issues. That is evident in our report and also the report of the National Economic and Social Forum. In meeting the committee today, we hope we can play our part in encouraging it to take a long-term strategy which will lead to an effective high quality child care infrastructure that is accessible to all parents and that recognises the choices that parents want to make at different stages in their children's lives.

Unfortunately child care is not an issue that lends itself to quick fix solutions. We would not choose to be starting from our present base. Support for the care of children in Ireland in the past has been minimal. It was predominately left up to women to either stay at home to care for the children or juggle a career with a variety of child care arrangements. The support of the equal opportunities childcare programme was the first real initiative to address some of the child care issues, but what is required now is a holistic policy that is capable of tackling all of the issues simultaneously. We had a long consultation process with our members.

Our position on child care is focused on recognition of care in the home, extensive leave arrangements to create a greater work life balance and the development of a publicly funded high quality early childhood care and education system. In 2003 we launched A Woman's Model for Social Welfare Reform, which makes extensive recommendations on recognising parenting as a contingency within the social welfare system. It also recommends introducing a system of parental support payments that would allow parents to make real choices regarding care in the home and working in the paid labour force. We have been campaigning strongly on the need for these reforms and therefore we urge the committee to consider them as part of its discussions on child care before the forthcoming budget.

We have now launched our proposals for an accessible model for child care in Ireland. The model is based on a children's and women's rights perspective and is also based on strong international evidence. I presume most of the committee members received the report. The NWCI believes it can no longer be left to the market to decide how, when and where early childhood care and education is delivered. International evidence has shown the clear benefits of early childhood care and education on children's development and leave arrangements. It is also clear from international evidence that countries that have used tax-based solutions to support parents are now moving away from these measures because of their ineffectiveness. They are now adopting an approach based on providing subsidies for all child care providers, primarily because those subsidies can be tied into the development of quality child care. The NWCI also intends the model to increase and promote women's economic independence through a greater sharing of care responsibilities between women and men and through providing choices for women as to how and when they wish to participate in employment, education or training. I refer in particular to women dependent on low incomes.

The NWCI is clear that this model is only one part of the child care jigsaw. The model is very much based on affordability. The issue of quality standards, the position and status of workers in child care and training all require specific attention and are not covered by our current research.

Some of the facts I am listing will already be known to the members but it is important to restate them. In Ireland we have a higher-than-average proportion of women and children in poverty. The options for low-income parents who cannot afford the full costs of child care are constrained, often forcing them to settle for care of lower quality. Most EU countries now provide free universal access to early childhood care and education services for children aged between three and six years. Ireland offers no such provision.

Child care costs in Ireland are over 20% of average earnings. In Denmark, for example, parents pay 33% of the actual costs of child care, compared to 80% in this country. The majority of EU countries assist parents with child care and also have extensive leave arrangements. Women who care for their children at home have no access to State pensions or maternity benefit. Their care work is not credited and there is no contingency within the social welfare system for parenting.

These are the problems and the NWCI's recommendations are twofold. As I stated, they include the recommendations for a women's model of social welfare reform and those in the new child care report that the council just launched. We propose that, in the case of children between zero and 12 months, paid maternity leave be increased to 26 weeks. It currently stands at 18 weeks. Paternity leave should be introduced, at first on the basis of five paid days of leave. Twenty-six weeks of paid parental leave should be introduced. Payment is the critical issue. We currently have an unpaid and ineffective parental leave system. It is extremely difficult for those on low incomes to avail of it.

We also propose that parenting be made a contingency within the social welfare system; that credits be provided for those caring for children under 12; that the current parental leave system involving 14 weeks per child under the age of five be turned into a paid system; and that part-time parental leave be provided for in the case of parents of children aged between five and 14. We also propose that there be both a full-time means-tested parental allowance payment and a part-time version. We feel much of the debate has focused on parents at work. If it is good for children to be at home in the early years, it is also good for parents on social welfare. We must ensure that we introduce relevant measures in the social welfare system.

On the subsidised model of child care, we propose that there be universal early childhood care and education for all three-year-olds and four-year-olds. That is similar to the recommendation of the NESF. We also propose that there be subsidised extended care, by which we mean out-of-school care. This could include care after school or during school holidays. We are also proposing a subsidised model for the one-year-olds and two-year-olds who are in full day care. This proposed model is based on a weighted system that would further support parents on low incomes.

The benefits of the model of subsidisation would ensure equal access for all children. It would also support the development of a regulated, quality accessible child care sector. It would provide parents with real choices and would also support gender equality and female career progression by removing the current barriers. We would facilitate Ireland in meeting its international targets under the Lisbon strategy, Barcelona summit and the Beijing platform for action.

The challenge for policy is to develop a long-term sustainable solution. This would mean facilitating parents to move in and out of work at different stages in their lives; ensuring all families, particularly low-income families, can access quality affordable child care facilities; and facilitating choice with regard to where children are cared for.

The development of a holistic model that supports real choices for parents is what is required. The NWCI is strongly advocating a holistic model that combines extensive supports for parents. It is critical therefore that steps be taken in the upcoming budget, but as part of a long-term strategy.

I thank Ms O'Connor. Do the committee members want the departmental officials and Dr. Tony Crooks to be invited to make a presentation in order that they can respond to certain items? Afterwards we will have questions for both groups.

That is probably the best approach in light of the time constraints.

Ms Sylda Langford

I thank the joint committee for its interest in the debate on future provision for childcare and for the opportunity it has given to me, on behalf of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, to speak about the equal opportunities childcare programme. I have responsibility for both the child care directorate and the youth justice task force in the Department. I am joined today by Ms Moira O'Mara, principal officer in the child care directorate, and Dr. Tony Crooks, chief executive of Area Development Management Limited, known as ADM Limited.

It is useful to reprise briefly the respective roles of both the Department and ADM Limited in child care development. The Department has responsibility for the delivery of child care services to support parents who are active in the labour market or who are preparing for labour market participation through the implementation of the equal opportunities childcare programme. The equal opportunities childcare programme delivers its child care measures through the regional operational programmes under the National Development Plan 2000-2006, with co-funding from the European Union and the Irish Government. ADM Limited assists the Department in delivering the programme measures and appraises all child care project applications as well as undertaking all day-to-day administration of grant contracts on behalf of the Department. It is also a source of policy advice to the Department regarding the development of child care.

As the committee is aware, the growth in the economy from the mid-1990s required a significant increase in the labour force. At the same time, the number of women with children remaining in the workforce increased. In addition, labour market participation was increasingly recognised as a key instrument to break the cycle of disadvantage. The national child care strategy emerged in 1999 against this background, with a focus on the need to increase child care availability to support the needs of working parents. The national child care strategy was developed by the partnership 2000 expert working group on child care of which I was the chairperson and operated under the aegis of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It provided a clear framework for the development of child care together with a funding package under the national development plan of €318 million of EU and Exchequer funding. This funding has since increased on three occasions and stands at €499 million for the current programme.

The target of increasing the existing supply of centre-based child care places by at least 50%, effectively the creation of 28,000 new places, was also increased to over 31,000. Over 26,000 new places have been created. Based on funding commitments to date it is expected that 39,000 new places will be delivered by the end of 2007.

The programme criteria against which applications are assessed include the socio-economic profile of an area and its expected client base; the capacity of an applicant group to develop and deliver the proposed service; the extent to which an application meets the needs of working parents in the area; value for money and linkages between the proposed service and other services in the area. The assessment process can take some time as applicants clarify their proposals and bring them into line with the programme's criteria.

The Department and the Government recognise that even the creation of 39,000 new places will not address all the demand for child care places at local level. The Government has committed ongoing capital funding totalling €90 million over 2005-09. This makes it possible for us to continue to process capital grant applications during the transition from the equal opportunities child care programme, EOCP, to the follow-on programme.

In addition to increasing the supply of centre-based child care places, the EOCP focused on supporting community-based child care services which support disadvantaged parents through the provision of staffing grants which contribute to staff costs and on measures to enhance the quality of child care services. The EOCP also supports 750 community-based child care services with staffing grants. A total of 2,200 child care staff working with children in disadvantaged areas are funded in this way.

Disadvantage is assessed under the programme by reference to the socio-economic profile of an area, the number of medical card holders, lone parents and those in social housing, whether the area is included in the RAPID or CLÁR regeneration programmes, the child care group's ethos and its admissions procedures and fee structures. The relevant county child care committee with its links to key local bodies such as the HSE is also consulted. Groups approved for continued staffing grants will receive support until the end of 2007. No group which has delivered a service to date as agreed with ADM on behalf of the Department has had its funding cut.

The 33 county child care committees were established by the Department to deliver quality local child care strategies. These committees are well-established and provide a national framework of locally organised child care supports. The Department envisages that this framework will be an important element of any follow-on programme. The programme also supports several national voluntary child care organisations which support training and quality programmes including those targeted at quality awareness for child minders. Child minders are significant providers of child care and a preferred child care option for many parents.

The EOCP is concerned to develop the supply of quality child care provision. Issues relating to the cost and affordability of child care to parents are fiscal issues outside the remit of our Department and fall within the remit of the Minister for Finance. In budget 2001, however, the Government decided that the best way to support parents in respect of child care costs was to invest in significant increases in child benefits. As a result the annual bill to the Exchequer for child benefits has increased from approximately €500 million to €1.9 billion. This child benefit payment benefits all parents equally.

The success of the EOCP is generally acknowledged as a start. For the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform the key question facing the programme now is how best to continue to develop services to meet the child care needs of parents and children under a follow-on programme in the context of the next national development plan from 2007.

The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform participates in the high level group on early childhood care and education which is co-ordinated by the National Children's Office. The group includes senior officials from the Departments of Health and Children, Education and Science, Social and Family Affairs, Finance and the Taoiseach. In considering a follow-on programme to the EOCP we will be in a position to benefit from the foundations already laid and from these to move forward with a strategic needs-based approach.

The delivery of quality child care requires an even and diverse range of services to be in place. As part of a more strategic approach to meeting child care needs it would also be useful to structure any follow-on programme in a way which would allow it to identify and respond to unmet needs in terms of child care service provision, including geographic black spots which emerge in the context of new satellite towns and commuting issues.

In addition to the report of the high level group examining these issues, the Government's consideration of the child care issue will also benefit from the work undertaken by several groups active in regard to child care issues. It will also benefit from the recent body of reports, including that of the National Women's Council of Ireland presented here today and that of the National Economic and Social Forum which I understand will address the committee later today. The various reports will be a critical factor in informing the Government's deliberations on future child care policy.

I have a few short questions, particularly for the National Women's Council of Ireland, NWCI. Ms Langford said the child benefit increased substantially from €500 million to €1.9 billion. Recent newspaper reports indicate this may increase substantially again. Does that tie in with what the NWCI feels should be done in regard to child care?

Ms Langford said labour market participation was a key factor in the need to provide child care. How does that tie in with the NWCI's point about the need substantially to improve social welfare benefits? I do not oppose social welfare benefits in any way.

Is there enough in the NWCI's report to encourage people into the workforce or does it mitigate against that?

Does the Chairman wish the visitors to answer the questions as they come or does he want to bank the questions?

We will bank the questions because everybody wants to contribute. Members should confine themselves to questions and not make speeches or put their point of view forward.

It would be wise to bank them up to a point. As I have undertaken to write a report for the committee, I am delighted the visitors are here today to help me in that job.

The speakers said rightly that child care has emerged as a priority on the political agenda and that there is a developing political consensus around the issue.

That is a change from Deputy O'Connor.

I am genuinely trying to get to the core of the problem. I must declare an interest as the father of eight children. As an absent father due to politics, I cannot say I have had as much experience of child care as my wife has. Is there a distinction between what we should be recommending for the stay-at-home parent and the working parent? Do both have to be brought along? Is this the basis for recommending universal support? As money is a large issue, have these proposals been costed? While everyone accepts that whatever is recommended for child care must fit into a broad plan for the next several years, have short-term priorities being established?

I have the impression that many Departments have their fingers in the child care pie. Is one of the problems that there is no co-ordinated response to the problem? The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has a particular role in this area. The Department of Finance has a role too, as it involves spending moneys. The Departments of Social and Family Affairs, Health and Children, Education and Science and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government also have roles. Is there a need for an overall political supremo to deal with the issue?

Deputy Jim O'Keeffe has asked all the questions I wished to ask. While not reflecting on the work done by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform in this field, is it the right one to administer this area? Ms O'Connor may have watched the "Prime Time" programme on child care. There was much debate on the fact that it concentrated exclusively on child care support for parents outside the home. Ms O'Connor's report states how it wants to provide real choice for stay-at-home parents. What are these choices?

There has been much stress on choice and flexibility. After the six weeks' maternity leave has expired, it is argued there should be a high degree of flexibility. Mothers, in particular, should not be forced to return to nine-to-five structured days because of the pressures associated with commuting, etc. Instead flexi-time arrangements should be made.

There are taxation benefits for developers of crèches and child-minding facilities. However, it has been suggested to me that in Limerick there are now, for a variety of reasons, increasing pressures on crèche operators. The developers get 100% capital allowances for the buildings but they do not pass this on to the operators, who are facing regulations, rates and high labour costs. The operators are coming under increasing financial pressure. Does this report contain any recommendations for crèche operators?

I thank both delegations for their presentations. The National Women's Council presented a model on the 26 weeks paid maternity and then 26 weeks parental leave. This would deal with the first year of child care. Then there are other proposals for years one and two through subsidised full-day care to eligible children. What creates an eligible child? Surely a child is eligible by virtue of the age category he or she falls into. How does this tie up with stay-at-home parents? What specific support mechanisms are proposed to be put in place? This model is valuable and interesting to parents who work.

Will the National Women's Council comment on the gap between its aspirations and the reality of child care provision? The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform gave a figure of 39,000 new places. Are these the first and only places that have been created? How does this link up with the places required? Is there a national figure for child care provision requirements? How much has been done in creating places through grants and other supports?

There seems to be a constant funding crisis with the county and city child care committees. Many of them have approached the committee on the difficulties encountered in getting sufficient funding. While it is a good framework structure, if the funding is not there it is difficult to implement. The Parental Leave (Amendment) Bill will be debated in the Dáil today, although it was to be passed before the summer recess. Is it not possible for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform to introduce a modest element of paid parental leave to bring us somewhere in line with the norm in other European countries? We are left out in the cold where parents on low incomes have little chance of availing of unpaid parental leave.

I welcome the National Women's Council, Dr. Tony Crooks of ADM Limited and the departmental officials. I thank the officials and ADM for their work and the courtesy shown to us when we make contact with them on this issue.

Ms O'Connor made the point that in her observations of European countries she saw a move away from tax-based solutions, a move currently being considered in Ireland. We will not dismiss such solutions but I am interested to see that the NWCI is looking outside them towards subsidies to all the child care providers. In moving towards that, would the group foresee a situation whereby large employers such as local authorities or the Houses of the Oireachtas, for example, would provide child care facilities — as some already do — under the same roof where the parent is working and where the providers there are the people subsidised, hopefully along with the parents too? Would the NWCI prefer that to a tax based solution? I would be interested to hear the group elaborate on this.

The witnesses referred in particular to Denmark, where 33% of the cost of child care is paid by parents, compared to 80% in this country. I would love to hear more about this and to hear how Denmark achieved that figure.

I welcome both groups. The concept of educational disadvantage and child poverty is often used rather loosely around the Houses. Would the NWCI in particular be aware that in some parts of the State, particularly on the north side of Dublin, up to 52% of children are not even ready for school? Would the council accept that quality child care and quality pre-schooling constitute a major strategy in dealing with educational disadvantage and child poverty?

The NWCI talked in its submission about universal education. Does it accept that this is a major factor in assisting poor families of children with disabilities? The middle income families who have children with disabilities are paying for the services, which makes a major difference for those children and their progress.

I fully support the NWCI's pre-budget submission. It talks of initiating universal early education for three and four year old children, with implementation phased over three years from 2006 to 2008. The council talked of creating 30,800 places and costed this at €178 million. That seems a sensible figure, but low if one is talking of creating all those places in 2006.

I welcome both delegations. As Deputy Jim O'Keeffe said, it is important that we focus on these issues. Most of the important questions have been raised and they have been highlighted by the launch by the Taoiseach in Tallaght last Monday of a ten-year approach to child care. This illustrated the fact that there are many different issues involved.

I was riveted by the "Prime Time" debate last night — that is a programme I regularly watch. As other colleagues noted, the debate was interesting and important. I would like to hear more from the NWCI regarding staying at home with children. There are two different perspectives on that issue, which as politicians we are aware of — and I represent a major population centre.

Deputy Finian McGrath made a point about educational disadvantage. It is important that we continue our commitment to social inclusion. We must understand that there are places, not only in north and south Dublin — not just in Tallaght — where child care is a different kind of issue. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform might have a view on how we could address those issues.

I have one question for the Department which relates to the high-level group on early childhood care and education. When will the group announce or report its findings so that the plans for the follow-up to the equal opportunities childcare programme, EOCP, can be considered with a view to providing some degree of certainty for the future for the various groups, so that they know whether they must seek out their own funding and become self-sufficient or can avail of subsidised staff costs?

Will the level of demand for child care places continue at its current level? Are sufficient places being planned for? What figures are we currently working on?

I welcome both delegations. I have a number of questions for the Department representatives. Has any analysis or research been done on the number of child care places which will be required each year for perhaps the next five or ten years, taking into account the birth rate, the number of younger people, both nationals and non-nationals, coming into the country, and the trends involved? Given that fewer women are staying at home but are entering the workforce, and are therefore not available to act as child care providers, has any research been done in this area by the Department or anyone else?

Both groups might comment on the psychological needs of children. Many of us here have been looking at the needs of the economy but perhaps we should start with the needs of children. I read some research recently which indicates that it is not best practice for children to be farmed out, so to speak, at an early age, that children under the age of one or two are better off spending more time with their parents. What do the groups think of that and how might it be facilitated?

Is it true that boys in particular can show signs of aggression and anger at a later stage if they are separated from their parents at a very young age? Are the groups aware of research in the US which has shown this to be the case? Will they comment?

The NWCI suggestion that it would cap the rates charged by child care providers, in other words regulate the area, was interesting. How would the rate be set and who would set it? Is it generally agreed among child care providers that this should happen? One of the fears is that no matter how the State might subsidise child care, the providers would simply add on the subsidy to what they currently charge, so that the cost to parents would stay the same, if not increase. How can we get around that? We all want to help parents with heavy financial burdens. However, if the subsidy is simply to be soaked up by the child care providers — perhaps for good reasons, because they have substantial costs too — how is the problem to be solved?

I have received some replies to parliamentary questions over the past few years which indicate that children are going to primary school much earlier than before, some of them as young as three, which should not happen. Have the two groups a view on the appropriateness of this?

With regard to looking after children before school, we have recently seen some reports about children being dropped off by their parents early in the morning. The impression was given that the children are left hanging around the schools, unsupervised, until the doors opened. Who carries responsibility in that area and what can be done about it? The two groups might also comment on after-school care needs. I am talking of a situation where parents are at work and cannot pick up their children after school, and the schools do not have the facility to mind the children.

It is unlikely that the witnesses will be able to answer all the questions.

I know, but we can ask them anyway.

We must conclude at 10.30 a.m. As there are many questions, the witnesses may have to be selective in what they respond to.

Ms O’Connor

I shall take a few questions together, since there were some similarities. The first point to address is the child benefit proposal and whether it will help. This is connected with some of the other questions raised. In the first instance, child benefit should be about alleviating child poverty. The Combat Poverty Agency has already said what is required to cover the costs of a child outside child care. A significant increase is obviously necessary. The National Women's Council supports such an increase to alleviate child poverty outside child care.

I can understand why, politically, child benefit might be an attractive means to bring together the difficulties connected with caring for children in the home and outside. Since the payment goes to everyone, one might think that one had everything covered. We took that route four or five years ago when the PPF was negotiated. That was the Government's strategy, and it did not work because child benefit was never increased to the levels promised and because it did not target the problem. We say very clearly that we should increase child benefit to alleviate child poverty. However, it is not an answer to the development of a quality, sustainable child care infrastructure.

As this issue is complex and will require different solutions, we should not go looking for a single quick fix. That will not work. Based on our experience from this report and the National Economic and Social Forum, NESF, the preference is a quality, sustainable, subsidised route rather than giving a certain amount to parents and hoping that the money will end up in the right place. That is our response regarding child benefit. It is connected with the issue of how one covers both. It is critical since parents, particularly mothers, want choices at different times in their lives.

We spoke at our launch of a continuum of care that allows people to move in and out of work and have care recognised. That is why we said very clearly at the start that this report regarding an accessible child care model must go hand in hand with a women's model for social welfare reform. That is where we clearly set out the supports to recognise care in the first instance so that parents who are at home caring for their children are eligible for pension and maternity benefits and parental leave. We must also implement a range of parental leave supports. Different measures are required for different people, but they must start simultaneously.

The issue of subsidy is important. We need not look too far to see those countries that have moved away from tax-based solutions, the UK being a prime example. It is clearly doing so since it has found them ineffective. It simply did not meet the targets and the take-up was not as high as expected. The UK may also have come to see that it was not the most equitable solution; it was simply not working, and that is why it has shifted. At the most recent Labour Party conference an even more extensive programme of subsidy was announced. We think that it is the way forward, since that is the route taken by most countries with highly developed quality child care systems.

In our model, it would be weighted towards lower-income families, since that is very important. All parents' child care would be subsidised by up to 50%, but for lower-income families the subsidy would be higher. It is connected with Deputy Finian McGrath's question on educational disadvantage and child poverty. The issue of universal pre-school care is critical. We have shown very clearly in our report that it is costly but that the long-term benefits outweigh the costs, as study after study has shown. They refer to the US, since that is where longitudinal studies have been carried out, but children who are disadvantaged or experiencing poverty in particular have reaped the benefits of universal pre-school care.

I have covered only some points. I know that Ms McMinn wished to address another two.

Dr. Joanna McMinn

Regarding our strategy and the issue of aspiration and reality, we see it very clearly as a phased introduction. Mention was made of our pre-budget submission. We envisage its being introduced incrementally. On labour market targets and whether our child care strategy supports or militates against it, it has been shown that it is better for women to have generous parental and maternity leave. It has been proven to attract women back into the labour market in job-protected situations. One has higher and more sustainable skills than one would if women were given only very short-term benefits for which they would not want to leave their small children, instead tending to drop out. It supports women to make the choice and it is also better for businesses.

The psychological needs of children are a major concern and part of the debate. It is important to remember that we are not discussing child-minding — watching children in crèches. Our child care strategy is very clearly linked to early childhood care and education. There are many examples of the benefits to children's development in cognitive language and academic and social behaviour. American examples were mentioned. The Head Start programme has been running since the 1960s with great success. The Perry pre-school project was a 1962 longitudinal study of some high-risk children. It was shown that the decrease in crime and all sorts of anti-social behaviour was enormous. The return was $258,000 per participant for an investment of $15,000 per child. At both a psychological and cost level, such programmes are clearly linked to education and care. They have been enormously successful, and we must take a long-term view of the investment.

Ms Langford

We must look at this from an historical perspective. We must understand the history of Ireland to move forward. It is important to remember what happened in other EU countries. Child care started there because of the Second World War, when women were involved in factories and men were at war. When the men returned, the countries had to be rebuilt. There was therefore a culture and history of women working outside the home. The development of child care in other EU countries started at that point.

In Sweden, which was not at war, for some reason they always had a sense of equality between men and women. Long before, they had decided that women should have the same access to work as men. They therefore began to develop child care as an equality issue, but as soon as it was developed and in place, they saw child care as a child service and welfare model. They would no longer see it as a service to enable parents to work.

In Ireland at that time, we did not have a culture of working outside the home, except among working-class women. The social welfare records in Ireland show that working-class women worked outside the home because they could not afford not to. There was a tradition of middle-class women not working, except those in the professions, who remained at work. The cultural tradition was that the man would be the breadwinner while the woman would work in the home.

Those were the culture and values that we had in Ireland until we joined the EU in 1973. We were then affected by equality legislation, which forced us to introduce equal pay for equal work and equal access to the labour market. At the same time, the Structural Funds enabled us to develop. As a result, the economy began to grow, and there were opportunities for women in the labour market. That was the first time that we thought of the requirement for child care. Previously, there had been voluntary organisations such as the IPPA, Barnardo's and the ISPCC. They were developing pre-school services throughout the country for the purposes of enabling parents to send their children to a year of pre-school early child care and education. That was Ireland's position.

The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform became involved with regard to investigating trends and changes in women's engagement in the labour force. I worked in the equality division, which monitored the trends of participation of women in the labour market. Scanning the environment, as we are supposed to do, we could see there would be a huge bubble and a crisis in regard to child care. However, because the Department was responsible for equality issues, we were able to access funding from the EU through the ESF employment programme. No other Department would have been able to do this because child care within the EU was seen as a matter for the member states. Under subsidiarity it was up to individual states to develop their own child care services, and other states had developed child care services and had moved on — child care was now part of their social services. Therefore, the only way we could get access to funding for child care was to be smart and strategic and show that the statistics for women accessing the labour market in Ireland proved that child care was not available. In this way, we managed to access funding to begin to develop the equal opportunities child care programme. However, because that funding came from the ESF, it could only be used to assist parents who were accessing education, training or employment, so we were obliged to develop a tight, narrow programme.

Had we been free agents we would have developed a much broader programme whereby we would have begun from a focus on the needs of the child. However, we developed the child care programme that is now in place. By a series of accidents, I happened to be working in the equality division, had been trained in child development and was a former social worker with the Eastern Health Board. Therefore, I brought to the programme my child development knowledge and all my experience in the child care services. The Government was aware I was in the division and had decided to access the funding from the EU. The current programme began from that point.

In Ireland it is still a value and a matter of choice for many women to decide to look after their own children in their own homes. In terms of culture and value, this is something that must be managed. In common sense and factual terms, I understand from listening to parents using child care throughout the country that they seem to be able to manage to pay for child care for the first child. However, when they have a second child, their earnings will not stretch to meet the extra cost. A Deputy asked what one could do to prioritise. My reply is that if one wanted to act immediately to assist parents, who must both work because people now receive mortgages based on two salaries, the struggle to pay for child care for second and subsequent children must be considered.

To answer the question on whether the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is the right place for the programme, the answer is that it is not. The only reason it was based there was the Department contained the equality division, which gave access to the EU funding. However, the type of programme put in place involved setting up a national committee, comprising many of those responsible for child care issues. We co-operated closely with the then health boards in this work.

Ireland needs child-centred child care services. It is necessary to set out a programme for which the needs of the child are paramount. Moreover, the needs of parents cannot be separated because a child lives in a family and to have stressed parents does not help a child. There must be the type of child care that all parents can use. By that, I mean that if a mother is working in the home, she will want to use the pre-school service. If a mother is working part-time, she will want part-time child care. If a mother is working in a factory and must be at work at 8 a.m., she will need flexible child care. As parents must work and do not get long holidays or days off when schools are off, we also need a type of child care which covers the periods before school, during school, after school and during school holidays, and this must be affordable.

The type of child care we tried to develop through the EOCP was based on setting out a tiered range of costs in order that parents paid in accordance with their means. If this did not happen, parents who could afford child care would get it at the cost of parents who could not. Our vision was that child care would be available to all but no-one would get it for free. We have learned that if the service is free, it is not valued. Therefore, some payment is necessary. With regard to the Government trying to assist this process, the Deputy is correct that if subsidies are applied, it is quite likely that the prices of providers will rise. In the Netherlands, a subsidy is provided up to a certain amount. If the parents choose to use a child care provider who charges more, the parent must pay the extra cost. Child care is extremely complex, giving rise to economic, social and legal issues. In terms of governance, every issue arises.

One problem in Ireland is that a child minder can take care of up to three children plus his or her own children and not have to notify the health board. Therefore, we have no way of measuring the child care that takes place outside the formal notified system. Our understanding is that quite an amount of child care takes place in that sector because it is the type of child care that many parents like. Through the EOCP we gave funding to the county child care committees to administer a small grant system which allowed child minders to buy toys and equipment, which was linked to training for the child minders. At the same time, the then health boards created child minding advisory posts. These officials helped child minders who were not obliged to notify the health boards of their activities. A voluntary notification system was also put in place because some child minders do not want to mind more than three children but would like to be able to tell parents that they have been visited by what is now the HSE, and that it is satisfied that the serviced offered is good for children. Therefore, a voluntary notification system was put in place through the child minding advisory officers and approximately 1,000 child minders are now notified on a voluntary basis. Many women choose to remain at home to mind their own children and some choose to work part-time. If we valued child minding, we would recognise this as a potential source of child care. These women would be able to hold their heads up as professional child minders and would form part of the sector.

With regard following on with a broader programme, the main work of the high level group was in considering how to build on the current EOCP and the recommendations on developing a broader and better EOCP. The county child care committees were put in place because we believed one must be close to parents and communities to identify the child care needs of local communities and to support providers. We always had a problem with Dublin because what will work outside Dublin, where people know each other and population numbers are smaller, does not always work in Dublin. We always believed that the structure of the county child care committees might not be right for Dublin. However, because we did not know what to do, we decided to put the committee in place and then decide how to improve it.

The county child care committees are at an early stage of development. The information we have on them is that where they had a good start and where they got good staff, they are doing a very good job. The first committee was a pilot project established in Galway. That committee has made a huge difference to the development of child care and improving standards in the county. I accept that a better solution is required in regard to services in Dublin but this requires more funding. A difficulty for us is that we had a defined package of funding over the seven years. My colleague, Ms Moira O'Mara, has met some of the county child care committees in the past week and we are considering how best we might assist them.

In regard to developers, the present policy does not work because, as members observed, the incentive goes to the builder rather than the child care provider. The latter leases the premises at full market cost from the builder. This issue has been highlighted by the high-level group and it is important that this element of public policy should be managed strongly. It is currently part of the planning arena and is not being managed strategically. We will make a strong recommendation to the Government in this regard.

A difficulty in discussing parental leave is that there is a tendency to generalise in regard to the requirements and priorities of parents. Parents operate in an entire range of circumstances, some on welfare, others on low or medium pay and so on. A distinction must also be made between women who have jobs and those who have careers. For a woman with a career, child care is a long-term expense. The situation is different for a woman working in a factory, for example, with little prospect of increased pay or promotion. Women are not all the same in terms of their child care requirements. The same applies to parental leave. Low-paid workers often cannot afford to take such leave. In regard to men, research in other countries indicates that even where fathers receive a payment equivalent or close to their salary, few choose to avail of parental leave.

Most of the issues relating to child care provision are chiefly the concern of mothers. In terms of planning for the future, we must try to ascertain the requirements of mothers. In terms of what is of benefit to children, there seems to be a consensus that the first 26 weeks of life are precious and should, if possible, be spent at home with parents rather than in other forms of child care. It could also be argued that this applies to the first 12 rather than the first six months of life.

While the costs of paid maternity and parental leave would be substantial, research indicates the influence of the first few years of a child's life in determining whether he or she will remain in school, access employment and proceed to third level education. This is about an investment in children and society. The mistake we make in regard to many social issues is that we separate the social and the economic. It is not possible to do so because children are the workers of tomorrow. In doing the best we can for them, we produce the carers and workers of the next generation.

That was a tour de force.

Yes. I thank the representatives of the National Women's Council of Ireland, Dr. Joanna McMinn, Ms Orla O'Connor and Ms Claire Dunne; Dr. Tony Crooks from Area Development Management Limited; and Ms Slyda Langford and Ms Moira O'Mara from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

The committee will suspend until noon when we will hear from Dr. Maureen Gaffney and Professor John Collahan from the National Economic and Social Forum.

Sitting suspended at 10.45 a.m. and resumed at noon.

I welcome Dr. Maureen Gaffney, chairperson of the National Economic and Social Forum, and Professor John Coolahan, project team chair of the National Economic and Social Forum. Last month, the NESF published its report on early childhood care and education and its representatives are welcome today. Before they give their presentation, I wish to remind the witnesses that while Members of the Oireachtas have privilege in what they say here, the same privilege does not extend to the witnesses. I invite Dr. Gaffney to make a presentation.

Dr. Maureen Gaffney

I thank the joint committee for inviting me to appear before it. I am delighted to have the opportunity to brief it on our recent report. I have invited Professor John Coolahan to attend the meeting. When the forum picks a topic, it assembles a project team which is representative of all five strands in the forum, namely, the political parties, the trade unions, business, the voluntary and community sectors and local government. The forum then invites an external chairperson to run that particular project. We were fortunate to secure the services of Professor Coolahan, who has a lifetime's experience in this sector. I had intended to give a PowerPoint presentation, but I believe that the committee is experiencing technical difficulties. Consequently, I have made copies of the overhead slides available to the members.

If the members will pardon the indulgence, I wish to cite an interesting observation about Governments that was made recently:

Most Governments have an optical distortion about the process of change. They nearly always overestimate how much can be changed in the short term ... when, in fact, there's very little worth doing which can be done in one or two years. But equally, they nearly all underestimate how much fundamental change is possible over longer periods of time with persistence, consistency, will and passion.

I make this observation, not simply because I believe it to be generally true, but because it is absolutely true when it comes to the issue of child care. In this report, the NESF's basic proposition is that a bold move on early education and child care would constitute a major landmark in the social and educational history of the State. I will put forward the arguments in its favour.

The timing for such a move could not be better. The country is experiencing unprecedented economic growth. I will not discuss the figures because they are known to all members of the committee. The population is at its highest since 1871 and the early childhood sector cares for approximately 10% of the total population. This sector of the population has parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles so it is a mystery why politicians do not regard this sector as extraordinarily important. The birth rate has been increasing since 1994, both in terms of actual numbers and per thousand of the population. It is an increasingly urbanised population; figures show that 60% of it was urban-based in 2002. Approximately 30% of children are born to lone parents. The number of women employed outside the home has increased by 60% between 1995 and 2004 and 54% of Irish mothers with children under five years are employed. This means that approximately 200,000 employed mothers need child care.

We are now dealing with a landscape that is fundamentally different in terms of population, family life, people's expectations and the proportion of the constituency that is involved in child care on a daily basis. A considerable number of our institutions and politics still think they are dealing with the old Ireland when they are not. The arguments for a bold move on early child care are very strong. We need to remedy our extraordinary historic deficit on this issue. There are enormous economic, equality and child development benefits to be gained from dealing with child care, with the child development benefits being the most important ones from my perspective and that of the NESF. The child care issue often gets completely sidelined into arguments about whether women should stay at home or go to work. The fundamental arguments for the kind of provision we are talking about are much larger than that. These are economic and equality-based arguments that also relate to human capital in today's children.

We spend less than 0.2% of GDP on early child care and education, which is significantly below the 0.4% average across OECD countries. Members can see from our presentation that the amount spent on early child care and education in Ireland is less than that of Poland, which spends 0.4% of GDP on this area. I mean no disrespect to Poland but this is a fairly extraordinary state of affairs given our economic situation. A total of 15.7% of the Irish population lives in relative poverty, compared to 2.4% of the population in Denmark and Finland. There are fundamental differences between these countries but Denmark and Finland are distinguished by their high investment in early child care and education so child poverty is intimately linked with investment in early child care and education.

There are three basic systems of early child care and education. The first is the high investment public provision model, which is found in northern European countries. These countries place a heavy emphasis on looking at children's and parents' needs and rights rather than on purely economic arguments. This leads to a public investment of over 1% of GDP in early child care and education. The next model is the mid-level investment model, which is found in most EU countries, and the final model is the low investment mixed market model, which is found in this country. With the low investment mixed market model, families are responsible for taking care of early child care and education. Individual families and women must make decisions about the care of their children and the Government plays a very minor role. When the focus is placed on early child care and education, it is almost exclusively on a service for working mothers. This is evident in the public debate in this country, where it is continually sidelined into issues surrounding a service for working mothers, as opposed to these larger issues, which are fundamentally more important in the long term. With this last model of early child care and education, public investment is less than 0.5% of GDP. We are grouped with countries such as Korea and the US, which is not good company to be in when it comes to public provision for children.

Is Dr. Gaffney talking about North or South Korea?

Dr. Gaffney

We did not distinguish between them but I do not wish to be grouped with either country. Combined with our historic deficit, we have extremely poor implementation of policy. I am sure it is not the first time that members have heard this argument but we have detailed a picture of relative inaction, peripheral implementation and drift in our report. The economic arguments for investment in early child care and education are very strong. As extensive economic research in all countries links human capital to education levels, if one is talking about human capital, one is fundamentally talking about investment in education. Competitiveness is linked with the capacity for lifelong learning, which has been repeatedly stated in other reports. Research reveals that lifelong learning rests on the basic foundation of early child care and education. It is extraordinarily difficult to remedy deficits that begun early in life. It is possible to remedy them but it costs a fortune and does not always work. This, combined with the increased participation of women in the labour force, will continue to be an important issue in a tight labour market.

On a visit to Ireland last year, James Heckmann, who won the Nobel Prize for his work on micro-economics, gave a very interesting account of his work in which he said that if one looks at the economic investment in early child care and education and tracks it through life in terms of Government expenditure on matters such as anti-social behaviour, school dropout rates and remedial education, the ratio of savings is 7:1. For every dollar spent on early child care and education, the saving on later expenditure is $7. This is not my assertion; it is the empirical finding of a Nobel laureate. The provision of quality early education programmes leads to better educational outcomes, less Government spending on associated child welfare problems and juvenile crime. Policy remedies later in life, which involve trying to pick up the pieces of people who drop out of school later in life, are very costly and often palliative. They cope with the problem rather than move towards lasting solutions.

The NESF began its work on early child care and education, to which Deputy Costello contributed, by discussing how it could raise the 80% of children who sit the leaving certificate to 100%. It soon discovered it is too late to start at the age of 16; one must start at the age of 12. It then discovered that starting at the age of 12 was too late because the issues that encourage people to drop out of school can be clearly identified at the age of nine, which was then discovered to be too late for intervention. We visited schools and spoke to teachers in disadvantaged areas who told us their major problem was absenteeism in infant classes. This is where the issue begins and why provision must be made at a much earlier stage and associated with a considerable amount of outreach for families, particularly families that require it. The State must stand in loco parentis for parents who cannot give their children the kind of start they now need to participate as full citizens. The absolute entry card or passport into full citizenship is education.

The arguments for early child care and education from the perspective of equality are extremely strong. The increase in income inequality, whichever way it is measured, is largely driven by a widening wage gap, which, in turn, is driven by educational levels. If one wishes to tackle inequality in a serious fashion, one must tackle education. The relationship between education and socioeconomic status is such that social gaps will increase as returns to education increase. In my generation, it was sufficient to pass one's leaving certificate, whereas two or three years later, one needed to possess a degree. Everyone now knows that a degree is only the start of the process. We are constantly driving up educational standards and the higher they become, the more inevitable it becomes that people will fall further behind unless money is invested in early child care and education. We are paddling around in a stagnant pool unless we take this issue seriously.

Ability gaps open up very early in family types before formal schooling begins and then persist. Some interesting work carried out for the United Kingdom's Cabinet Office seemed to shock its members. The work, in which large samples were examined, shows that, if one takes a middle class baby of average ability at 12 months of age and compares him or her with a working class, disadvantaged baby of above average ability, the gap has almost disappeared by the time the first baby is 22 months old. This could be due to the disadvantaged child diminishing, the advantaged child having all the privileges of a middle class education and a home background or a combination of the two. The gap has closed at approximately three years old but the middle class average ability child has streaked ahead by the time they are six years old. The other child will never catch up no matter how much palliative care is given. These are good studies as this is the reality of the situation.

Since 1990 and Mr. Gordon Brown's increases in levels of funding available to the Sure Start programme, the United Kingdom has experienced a significant reduction of 3.1% in child poverty, which is linked to the levels of investment. In terms of the child development argument, pre-school education generally enhances all round development throughout childhood, which is something one hears thrown back and forth all of the time. It is particularly important that children get a high quality group experience at approximately three years of age as strong advantages are attached to it. The long-term effects of high quality kindergarten care in particular are lifetime effects in that they do not disappear when one goes to school but give an advantage that stays with one throughout life.

America has carried out a number of fantastic studies on very high quality investments in disadvantaged families, such as the Perry Pre-school Project. The children involved are now older than 40 years of age and, as such, there is good data on what happened to them. They did not just do better in school but got better jobs, were earning more money at 40 years old and had better family lives. In other words, they experienced all the outcomes we want for children. High quality is the critical factor.

The matter is not addressed in our report but I am doing so now as, being a psychologist, I have an interest in the area and believed the committee's members might be interested in some of the findings. Are children better off if their mothers stay at home? It depends on the quality of child care received inside and outside the home. If a parent, usually a mother, is educated and very happy to be at home full-time to take care of his or her child up to three years of age, going to pre-school would not be an advantage due to the significant advantages provided at home as long as parents are not under financial pressure, the mother is not missing out on her career and so on.

Full-time working in the first year of life may have some adverse effects, a possibility that has been discussed back and forth. A recent United Kingdom study suggests there are some behavioural issues involved if group care in excess of 30 hours per week is experienced in the first year or two of life. I choose to adhere to the largest ongoing study in the US, which has cost billions of dollars and is the best study ever carried out in this area. The children involved are approximately 13 years of age and the data is of high quality. I will not go into detail and will brief the members if they are interested.

Emotional security, the issue most parents worry about, has effects on self-esteem, how one does in school and gets on with one's friends. In psychology it is a building block. Emotional security is what parents want their babies to have at one year of age, namely, a basic and fundamental trust in their parents to take care of them and be relied upon. The study's results were that, irrespective of the amount of time spent in child care, age of entry or quality of child care, the proportion of children of working mothers with secure emotional attachments is exactly the same as those reared at home. This study was carried out in a scientific way and, as the subject of my PhD, I know much about it. The results are definitive.

If one were to go to any suburb or country town and take a sample, one would find that approximately 62% of children are securely attached while the rest have a variety of insecure attachments. Marginalised, deprived people have lower levels of security due to the amount of stress in their lives. The greatest determinant of insecure attachments is not whether a mother works but whether a mother is responsive emotionally, which can be measured scientifically. If a mother is psychologically unresponsive, is depressed, did not get proper mothering or so on and her baby is placed in poor quality child care for many hours, the situation will be worsened. Such mothers are more likely to place their babies in many hours of child care as they often do not like the job of looking after small babies. They know they have certain difficulties in this respect. It is a complex issue. Children in poor quality child care can still be secure if their mothers are responsive to them. The lesson is that mothers still count as the most important determinant, which is both fantastic and scary news.

There is an issue surrounding child behaviour. The more time children spend in child care during their first two years, in excess of 30 hours per week or six hours per day, the American study showed there was a higher probability that those children would be unco-operative, demanding and have other slight behavioural problems. In America, they were called smart but mean children at the age of three or four years, namely, demanding, egocentric, etc. This caused a large furore in the US, including huge headlines in newspapers, and people are still quoting the study. I recently replied to a columnist in The Irish Times and corrected her perception of this matter as she was quoting earlier studies.

The children were followed up when they went to school at five years of age and the effects had disappeared. We do not know whether they will recur but the situation is not as dire as people are painting it. It may be a temporary phenomenon. The explanation is that children who spend much time in group care, even as politicians must spend much time with very competitive parties, must learn to take care of themselves earlier than children raised at home who may learn that lesson when they go to school. Perhaps politicians are slightly more demanding because they must compete for their places.

This situation may recur and be the price people pay for children spending too much time in group settings. Of the 17% of children with problems, the problems were not at the clinical level, namely, the children did not require clinical psychologists, child care clinics or anything like that. They were children who were a little bit bolder than others. If one went to any school in Dublin or elsewhere in the country and used this particular test, one would find that 17% of any class is bolder than the rest. In other words, 17% is the normal proportion in a continuum of behaviour. We must keep our eyes on this matter. I will not speak about cognitive and educational development because we do not have enough time.

How much child care is too much? There is no scientifically established threshold. My personal view rather than the NESF's is that, erring on the side of caution, it would be ideal for babies to have full-time access to one parent for as long as possible in the first year. If a parent wants to or must go to work, it would be better to keep it under 30 hours per week or, preferably, 20 hours. A total of 44 hours is too much for babies, especially those in group care. That is the psychological justification for extending maternal leave in the first year and the option of part time work in the early years. In all matters, quality counts.

The NESF recommends a national early age development programme, using the acronym NEAD, referring to the Irish word for nest, a place to cherish the young. We divided this programme into three segments. In the first 12 months we suggest the current provision of maternity leave should be increased over the next five budgets by two weeks per year so that by 2009 maternity leave will be six months. A mother will have the right to remain at home and be paid for the first six months of the baby's life. Additional leave taken at the mother's cost should be increased to ten weeks and parental leave should be increased to 16 weeks. By 2009 a mother should have the right to remain at home with pay for six months and she or her partner will have the right to remain at home, unpaid, for the next six months. If one wants to, and can afford it, some combination of parents can remain at home full time for the first year of the child's life.

I remind the committee that no other EU country provides less parental leave than Ireland. This will be an issue for employers.

How many EU countries provide for 52 weeks parental leave?

Professor John Coolahan

The country closest to Ireland is England, which expects to provide for 52 weeks of maternity leave by 2009 and are ahead of us in this way. All other EU countries are well ahead of us.

Dr. Gaffney

In France, one can stay at home for three years although one will not be paid for the entire period. Let us imagine a parent with a new baby preparing for the long sprint to the child beginning national school. Most parents relax when the child is in national school. There is a high quality system in which people can trust. How does one get from a new baby to the age of four and a half? The first year of life is taken care of through maternal and parental leave.

A free kindergarten session should be provided for three and a half hours a day, five days a week, fifty weeks a year for the year before national school. The State steps in to provide care for children in a high-quality, franchised way. I use the word franchised to mean that the State will guarantee the standard. In the interim we should bridge the remaining year and a half with a semi-franchised operation. We take the provisions we now have, including childminders, crèches, Montessori schools and nannies, and set a quality standard. While there can be variety in the provision, a certain quality standard is met. The State provides the resources to train people and I have supplied details on how this can be done. Parents know that from birth to the time the child enters national school the State guarantees an accredited quality service in a way that suits the family.

The NESF report is distinguished form others in that it proposes a coherent model rather than a scattergun approach to initiatives. This is a road map that will assist women to return to the workforce and point the way for the new generation of Irish children in the changed landscape I described earlier. We also make an argument for universal rather than targeted provisions. This is a difficult issue for a state that may not want to direct all money towards people that can afford it. We suggest that universal provisions provide advantages for all children and there are many children that are not deprived in order that a payback accrues to the State. There are major benefits to children with an unequal start in life as well as better political buy in and higher standards. All parents are looking out for these standards and there is less stigma.

To extend maternity and additional leave would cost €12.6 million per extra week per year. By 2010 this will be €100 million. These may seem like small figures and I heard a politician state that €1 billion is nothing in respect of public provision.

To what does the €100 million refer?

Dr. Gaffney

That is the total cost by the 2010.

For what period?

Dr. Gaffney

That is the total cost of providing two extra weeks of maternity leave per year over five budgets. The calculation is €12.6 million multiplied by two, multiplied by five.

A nationwide network of child and family centres is needed to support children that need early child care and other services. This is to be costed. The costings to create the semi-franchised support are difficult and would need professional assistance. The universal free pre-school session would cost €680 million, €136 million per year or €2,831 per child. This provides an overview of the review and I am happy to answer any questions.

Professor Coolahan

Perhaps I could make some general comments from the chairman's perspective. The whole motivation behind the NESF recommendations was to be of assistance to policy makers. This is an important issue, there is much data and politicians are busy. We sought to bring an updated interpretation of the current situation.

The report is rooted in Irish circumstances. We are aware of international patterns and refer to these but build on the Irish traditions. We draw on a range of Irish reports that have considered this matter as well as a OECD report from 2004 on early childhood education in Ireland. The report is rooted in our culture, aspirations and traditions.

This report is realistic and feasible. We could have produced a wishlist of unrealistic aspirations but that would not have been helpful. The proposals are gradual, built on sustained progress. The idea is to maintain a sustained pattern, reflected in our use of a ten year plan comprising two five year slots, 2005-10, with adjustments made to circumstances for the second five years. We believe this target is needed to bring about significant changes. Some may say we are too prudent but Dr. Gaffney referred to this as a bold move and we believe this is true, given the circumstances from where we come. The gradual, sustained programme over two five year slots is one that can be achieved.

We stress this report is not just in respect of education and care of early childhood children. To drive down the economic framework on this type of thinking would be a mistake. Emphasising the education and care dimension would be valuable for Ireland. We should keep these fite fuaite or intermingled.

We seek quality development and to build on the extraordinary amount of research on the pace of learning in early childhood years. Relatively speaking, the pace in the first six years of life is greater than we ever experience again, much as adults may not believe that. We need stimulation, structures and environment in personnel and programmes which can be seen and demonstrated to be qualitative. Ireland can make a significant contribution through building on certain traditions within our system and education practices.

We are fortunate that during the past 12 years we have build up a range of reports to provide a groundwork for us. The NCCA has produced a framework for early childhood education, the Centre for Early Childhood Development and Education, CEDCE, based at St. Patrick's College Drumcondra, which has produced extremely valuable reports in the recent past in this field. A number of consultative reports from people working in various fields throughout Ireland brings this together, including a report in 1998 from the National Forum for Early Childhood Education which I chaired, the White Paper on early childhood education in 1999, and the OECD report examining Ireland in 2004. This would not involve inventing the wheel. A tremendous range of material exists from which to draw, much of it Irish-rooted. Not only is there readiness but also an appetite for movement in the partners and the agencies involved. They are waiting for it and a great sense of readiness exists.

As Dr. Gaffney stated, from any perspective the timing for a bold move on this is perfect, given the changing attitudes toward childhood in Irish society, the number of reports published, the amount of debate that has taken place and the fact that the children's office, the Ombudsman for Children and the national children's strategy in which committee members played a part in 2000 are all in place. However, implementation in this area has been genuinely extremely poor. We must get some momentum going for a variety of reasons.

The committee has much to consider when it enters the policy arena, but society has a readiness and demand that support a move on this. If the committee acted, the wind would be in its sails. The strategic impact of a bold move such as this on the future well-being of everyone in Irish society, particularly its junior citizens, would be an enormous landmark and would register with the people. Politicians that move on it would get significant credit, comparable to Deputy O'Malley's free education scheme in the 1960s. It would catch the public's imagination and enter tradition and the psychology of the people.

This is a people centred approach to position ourselves for the knowledge society in the long term. To use the phrases of economists, we have chosen human resource development and human capital. We should use simpler phrases, as we all know what we are discussing, which is our own people. This generation has inherited much from earlier generations that were not in a position to act. We can now act for a variety of reasons, including our economic well being and our insights, understanding and preparedness for what is happening. We know what the long-term impact on the well-being of the people will be.

We also have EU obligations to move in this direction. We have subscribed to the Barcelona targets to be met in 2010 but we are a long way from realising them. Meeting the 2010 targets is the first stage of our ten-year plan. We can achieve that with credit and international respect provided we do not lose much more time before putting a programme in place. This is a blueprint for such a programme, and we have intentionally kept it reasonable short. However, it is similar to the top of a volcano in that there is much underneath. We are anxious that the report can be used by the public and a variety of sectors. I recommend and share the perspectives put forward by Dr. Gaffney in her presentation. I will be pleased to answer any questions.

I am interested in the figure of 17% as it means one in six people will have a deficit in secure emotional attachments. I always thought politicians had a problem in that regard.

Dr. Gaffney

To correct the Chairman, one's emotional attachment is fine. It involves a slight behavioural problem whereby one is a bit demanding and bold.

That is what I meant.

Dr. Gaffney also said they were mean.

Dr. Gaffney

I meant mean in the American sense as in not nice.

We shall grow out of it eventually.

One should try competing in a multi-seat constituency.

Dr. Gaffney

I knew that would strike a chord.

We have heard an excellent presentation. I congratulate Dr. Gaffney and Professor Coolahan and the NESF in general on the report and presentation. It was not merely factual but full of enthusiasm, which spreads. I am on a learning curve and wish to raise a couple of issues. The issue of stay-at-home mothers was highlighted to some degree in a television programme last night. I suppose I should use the word "parent" but it is generally mothers who stay at home. If the NESF's approach is adopted, will there be much in it for stay-at-home mothers?

Perhaps we can take all of the questions together.

Another important area is universal versus targeted provision. I understand the NESF would favour the targeted approach. In terms of political implications, it may be difficult for some people who perhaps might pay a great deal of tax to accept that when they need or want something it is not available. One gets that reaction on the doorstep. Is there a type of halfway house whereby a universal provision has targeted provisions for disadvantaged areas? I will give way to my colleagues who perhaps have more specific questions.

I thank Dr. Gaffney and Professor Coolahan for their presentation. My first comment is on the rather stark assertion that mothers count without any thought as to whether fathers count. When we discuss parental leave, does it mean maternal leave or maternal and paternal leave? From Dr. Gaffney's experience, in terms of emotional attachment and security, is the mother the determining factor in providing that security? Is paternal leave a major factor that should be built into the equation?

With regard to additional maternity leave and parental leave for the first 12 months, which makes up a total of 52 months, I notice that nowhere is it suggested that parental leave should be paid. A problem exists with regard to unpaid parental leave in the sense that it is like the Ritz — it is available to the rich but not to the poor. It would be difficult for somebody on a low income to take parental leave. How would they survive, particularly in a two family situation? That covers the issue with regard to newborn babies to infants of one year of age, and it seems logical.

With regard to children aged three and four, effectively the State would determine the matter, as pre-school would be a State service provided for a year. In the middle would be two years of franchise service. Will the delegation elaborate on how these franchised services will operate? They do not envisage them being delivered by the State, though presumably the State would pay for them. What kind of mechanisms and structures will be in place and how can we ensure that people from disadvantaged areas can access these services? How, within their model, do they propose to build in the prioritisation of areas where services are not available at present?

I welcome Dr. Gaffney and Professor Coolahan and thank them for their valuable contribution to this debate. In their opening statement, they referred to an underestimation of the Government's ability to change things in the long term. Can they summarise the short-term and long-term targets the Government should adopt? Everyone agrees that this problem is not one that can be solved overnight. A long-term strategy must be followed but there should also be immediate action and I have no doubt that the delegation could provide short-term recommendations.

I am disappointed that the representatives continued to perpetuate the tendency to emphasise the mother's role. The role of the mother was mentioned as being central to the debate on child care in Ireland. I shook my head at that because I believe this committee is debating this issue under the committee's equality, rather than women's rights, remit. The representatives perpetuated this tendency during their contribution in that the father was not mentioned at all and I am interested in their view on the role of fathers. Do they, for example, see a link between the experience of child care at a young age and the increased aggression and under-achievement in young males?

The representatives referred to the provision of universal pre-schooling and have estimated that the cost, per child, of such a service would be approximately €231. Have they calculated the financial benefits to be gained from those women who choose, for whatever reason, to remain at home? Do they agree with the National Women's Council who recommended that credits should be accrued by women who choose to work in the home rather than entering the labour market?

I thank the delegation for an excellent presentation and commend the report from the NESF, which is of a very high standard. I am delighted that they recommend that mothers should be given 12 months leave to be at home with their babies, which would be good for both mother and child. Within that year, would they allocate any particular time to the father, where there is one? Do they believe that paternity leave for fathers should be obligatory or optional?

I am unclear as to how the representatives propose we deal with children aged between one and three years, that is, up to the time when they start attending pre-school. If we take the example of a mother who is working full time and paying for child care, how do the representatives see that child being managed in a child care situation? How will the child's developmental progress be managed between the age of one and the age of two or three, when he or she attends pre-school?

I am in favour of enabling parents, usually mothers, to stay at home for as long as possible after the birth of a child. However, today we have lost sight of the value of parenting. A similar situation pertains with breast feeding, although I understand the Government is about to embark on a programme promoting breast feeding as the best way to feed a child, which I welcome. Nevertheless, breast feeding was undervalued and forgotten about for many years. A very low value is placed on full-time parenting. How can we raise awareness of the value full-time parenting and place it at the top of the agenda?

The representatives spoke of the negative effects on children of day care for 40 hours per week. Have they examined the stress on parents who have to work full-time and leave their children in a crèche for long periods? Many parents are under dreadful stress, commuting long distances and leaving children in a crèche from as early as 7 a.m. until 7 p.m. That has to have a very stressful effect on parents and in turn, on their children.

Dr. Gaffney

I would be here until next Sunday if I tried to answer all the questions posed. I will start with the issue of stay-at-home mothers, which came up several times and the related issue of fathers.

When we talk about emotional security, we are referring to the parent who is involved the most with the child. Babies have endless needs. They must be fed, taken care of, responded to, talked to and so on. During thousands of different interactions over the course of days and weeks, babies begin to form a view as to who the person is who is always there for them. If that person is the father, babies will form their primary attachment to him. Babies do not distinguish between the sexes. They do not determine that, even though their father is with them all day, their primary attachment should be to their mother. They become attached, in a primary way, to the person who looks after them full-time and by full-time, I mean more than others. The reality is that for most parents and babies around the world, even in the most advanced economies, that person is the mother. Even in Sweden, where they have fantastic opportunities for fathers to take time off, the take-up has been poor. One study, which is by no means definitive, showed that even in situations where fathers stayed at home full-time, babies formed an attachment to them but mothers were still a stronger determining force with regard to long-term outcome.

In the first year, the issue is about who is there to look after the child full-time. Even if a child has a child minder or is going to a crèche, he or she will form an attachment with a parent rather than a child minder. That is why I talk about mothers, because it is mothers who generally look after children. Are fathers important? Fathers are absolutely, critically important. The particular study in the United States did not examine the role of fathers because the practical view was taken that the people looking after the children in the 1,300 families were almost universally mothers. That is also the reason I lay stress on mothers.

Babies will go to anyone up to the age of six or seven months, after which they begin to make strange with new people. That represents the beginning of an attachment. A baby tends to form singular attachments to a primary carer and will look to that person when sick, distressed or fearful. Infants do not look around for someone to approach but want to go to their mothers, who are usually the subjects of primary attachments. By the end of the first year, they begin to form attachments to their fathers.

Fathers also have a significant influence on emotional attachments. The babies who are blessed in life are the ones with secure attachments to mothers, fathers and others. This attachment builds strong resources and resilience later in a child's life. Fathers are hugely important in terms of problem solving and conflict resolution. The way fathers play with their children through horseplay is critical to a child's later approach to conflict resolution. It also influences sexual performance in animals, although we do not know whether a similar correlation pertains to humans. Fathers perform many functions, the majority of which are invisible. It is much better for a child to be cared for by two parents.

On staying at home, I stand over the scientific finding that, regardless of whether a parent goes out to work, the child will be emotionally secure provided the primary care giver is responsive. Parents do not need to worry on this issue. Some parents want to stay at home all the time and that is their choice. The biggest stress suffered by parents arises from what they miss. There is only one chance to see a child grow up. Not having the delight of seeing ones' children and spending time with them are major losses.

Surveys of women carried out in the United States indicate that the preferred option for most women is part-time work. The majority of women, particularly those with higher levels of education, want to stay attached to the labour force because they like their careers and achievements. Essentially, they struggle to achieve a good family life and a career, a combination which men have always possessed.

Women who stay at home full-time fall within a number of categories. Some decide to stay at home because their husbands have demanding occupations which preclude both parents from working. I imagine that many politicians' wives stay at home for that reason. The wives of senior businessmen usually stay at home. They make that choice. For others, education levels, types of job and earning potentials can mean that it is not worthwhile to go out to work. In advanced economies, there is an increased concentration of stay at home mothers among poorly educated young parents. The stay at home mother of today is different from that of a few years ago. I have a hunch that there is no correlation between anti-social behaviour among children and mothers who work full or part-time. Such behaviour is a cultural phenomenon because most anti-social children are not part of the generation where mothers worked full-time. Most mothers did not work full-time 20 years ago.

In terms of gender, boys are more prone to death in the womb, perinatal damage and other dangers. Boys require high maintenance and do better when their mothers can take care of them. Girls, however, do worse if their mothers take care of them full-time. It seems that boys have an almost endless need for nurturing. Men do not grow out of that. Little girls, by and large, have no trouble in being close to their mothers. Care by people other than the mother represents a move towards independence. Better educational outcomes ensue for girls who have experience of being taken care of outside as well as inside the home. I do not know how to manage that through public policy. Parents must decide on these matters.

Our report stated that we should soon move towards a regime of paying parental leave. We did not recommend such a change for the immediate future because we had difficulties in reaching the consensus of employers, who face challenges in managing the issue. I did not say that the mother should stay at home for the first year but that maternity leave concerns mothers because of breast-feeding and other factors. However, I said that parental leave should be accessible by father or mother. The workforce will not change until men face difficulties in returning to work after a few months on leave. They will then make decisions on managing work flexibility. As long as men do not have to interrupt their participation in the labour force, they will not understand the difficulties that arise. It would be ideal if mothers and fathers each took six months. Everybody would then be on a level playing field.

A good question was asked on immediate targets. We did not prioritise the issues because we wanted to avoid a preoccupation with scattergun initiatives. We want to make the Government think about this over the longer term and deliver a coherent programme over ten years. To meet that target, we will have to add two weeks to maternity leave and consider free child school places. The latter is an interesting initiative and is achievable in terms of finance and infrastructure. The child care infrastructure around the country is good but can be improved. We did not address the issue of what should be done in places without that type of infrastructure. The Government could pay a subvention per child, through which the full cost of care might be paid in the case of children from disadvantaged families and a sliding scale is applied to other children according to their families' financial circumstances. That subvention will increase provision. We did not address, for example, providing child care in parts of County Clare.

Tax credits and relief are perennial problems in terms of increasing costs. There is an issue here. A presentation from an economist at the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party meeting made the point that if one does it in terms of credit one cannot monitor how people spend the money. If one thinks of this only as helping people to return to work, one gets the wrong angle. One should regard it as an investment in children, making sure they receive high quality child care. One could take a liberal market view and leave it up to parents how they spend the money. They might decide to spend it on a second holiday. That is their choice, but I prefer to take the other end of the public provisions spectrum, that the State does as much as it can to ensure the money it gives for children's education is used for that purpose. Professor Coolahan has addressed this in more detail.

On full-time parenting, we do not know where we are on that. Girls are outstripping boys at school and at university. There is a highly educated female workforce. They do not lightly leave their careers. They struggle through the first and perhaps the second baby but are defeated by the third. Therefore, women opt to stay at home. What we do not know is how many would stay at home if we had a system like the French one, where one's job is guaranteed for three years while one stays at home. There is no point in advising people to stay at home because it is enjoyable or good for their children. People make choices in a much more complex way because the landscape has changed. We must even the playing pitch and allow people to maintain their attachment to the labour force while giving them as much time as they want with their children. My hunch is that educated women would opt for part-time or flexi-hours, after perhaps a year at home.

It is good for children to have group experience at age three. It is better for them than staying at home full-time. Most parents know that intuitively. Very few women mother 24 hours a day. Most women live different lives from our mothers. My mother went out perhaps once a month because that generation did not go out. She stayed at home all the time. Most women, even when they stay at home, have different expectations. They play golf, meet their friends, go shopping, etc. It is good for parents to have a place they can leave their children safely and securely while they do other things. Women should not be driven back to being defined as only mothers.

Professor Coolahan

I appreciate that the committee's time is valuable. Dr. Gaffney has addressed in an expert way many of the psychological issues that emerged in the questions raised. Our report does not provide a panacea for the changes and pressures in contemporary society. It is a significant and targeted contribution to easing pressures in identifiable beneficial ways. That does not mean the pressures of modern life, such as long working hours, will be resolved.

Senator Terry made a point about emphasising the value of parenting. I hope this report, if it is debated more widely, will stress this important area. It will highlight the significance of the experience of the nought to six year olds, which many people understand intuitively. It will help parents to realise this is a valuable investment of time. Things they do gradually in a haphazard way have much more value than they might think. I share the Senator's view. I would love to see good parenting become a virtue in our society, the social capital it creates valued and parents who stay at home get the respect and support that acknowledge their extraordinary contribution both to their families and to society.

I agree with Deputy Costello's point on parental leave. It is a weakness in the report but, as Dr. Gaffney said, we were anxious to get consensus to achieve impact. We are also aware that the Oireachtas is reviewing parental leave and debating new legislation. We did not want to rush in because we realised that the Oireachtas has greater expertise there. Perhaps the politicians will look at paid parental leave in that context. The business people on our committee insisted that we did not interfere with this debate as it went through the Oireachtas. They are uneasy about extending parental leave. We said further consideration should be given in the near future to paid parental leave. We have set out a series of arguments in section five of the report supporting that and hope the Oireachtas in its current review of parental leave will note some of those arguments.

Deputy Hoctor asked for some immediate suggestions for action. We should have made this clearer. We propose action which can be taken as soon as the will exists, even before the end of the year. A single Department must take responsibility for this whole area. It has suffered from fragmentation. We knew this as early as the 1998 National Forum on Early Childhood Education. We identified it and made recommendations but they were not adopted. That Department could set up an early childhood development unit, ECDU, which would become the key activating agency with expertise to carry through change. Responsible to the Cabinet, it would act as a co-ordinating and driving force for the other Departments, which would each have certain responsibilities. Nothing else will do. If activity is not co-ordinated, it will continue to be fragmented. The Government must make a decision on this crucial issue. Our report included a diagram showing how the ECDU would interlink with other relevant agencies.

The gradual extension of maternity leave to a sequence of years is not ambitious but realistic. Action can take place straight away because one cannot achieve the targets set for 2009 without acting in 2005 and 2006 on a gradual basis. The quality criteria to guide the programmes are ready for implementation. They have been passed by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, and the Centre for Early Childhood Development & Education, CECDE. The accreditation and registration process can be put in place, creating a single accrediting body for the agencies involved, a registration process and agreed standards of competence within the national qualifications framework. That is ready to move and can be done.

The planning of the pre-school year can start immediately, linked to a fundamental reform of the infant school sector of the primary school system. We have known for a long time that the infant school structure needs reforms to bring it in line with international practice in early childhood education. Pre-school for three-year olds does not necessarily have to take place in primary schools. It can be in a variety of organisations, including primary schools. We cannot throw out the infant school tradition. It is an old tradition here, unlike the rest of Europe where schooling starts at six or seven. In the 19th century infant school here was for three and a half year olds. We started schooling for most children at four or five years and the people bought into it. It is an old tradition wherein we differ from the rest of Europe, where schooling starts at age six and seven. Here the starting age is four or five and people accept that. To ignore that structure goes against Irish traditions and would be foolish.

Our report suggests reform and has received the support of INTO. It also suggests guidelines for doing so, such as assistants being introduced and a more benign teacher-pupil ratio, namely two teachers for 20 pupils. That is national policy but it is not being implemented. Straightforward initiatives can be taken which would create a synergy and a momentum evidenced by the involvement of certain agencies.

We have mentioned first year, which is very important. Pre-school year and infant school have also been dealt with. There is a transition period between two and three years, for which we recommend a more flexible scenario, working with the equal opportunities childcare programme. There is a significant number of initiatives, including county child care committees, playgroup associations and various nursery schools. In line with Deputy Costello's suggestion that the sector not be left without targeted State support we should build upon what already exists and encourage partnerships between the agencies. This can be done easily. We have talked to county child care committees and other groups and have their support, which is unusual in a sector where so many groups have evolved over time, such as nursery schools, kindergartens, Montessori, playgroup associations and childminder associations. There often tends to be a lack of co-operation between such groups but there is nothing in the report that does not have the backing of all these agencies. That will be of assistance to politicians also. They will be supported by a consensus based on Irish circumstances among Irish agencies informed by international perspectives. Political will and leadership are essential to move things forward.

I am not an expert on how to give more direct assistance to parents who stay at home in that first year. We discussed tax credits but the Government has a number of groups looking at it with more expertise than we have, including the Revenue Commissioners. We recognise and support the work of parents who decide to do so but do not make recommendations as other agencies will do that. The parents' representative from Cúram last night put a strong case in that regard.

Dr. Gaffney

We have an enormous number of competent soldiers doing a great job in the trenches. We do not have the sense of an army moving together toward a target. I ask myself what I want my grandchildren to have. In response, I say it is primary schools which are campuses, out of which an established pedagogy would emerge. Looking after children at ages one to six is not just about education and care but a particular pedagogy. We must develop that pedagogy, bringing together the child minders in the locality into a network of crèches and kindergartens and training them. There will be family and child support centres for those who need additional help. They will all move together knowing what we are trying to achieve.

I was invited by the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party to make a much longer version of this speech. At the end the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen gave a press conference. He was asked about child care and I was gratified to hear him say it was not child care but early child care and education. It is good that we are beginning to think in a more complex way about this issue.

Dr. Gaffney has made her mark. I thank her and Professor Coolahan for coming today and for their interesting presentations. That concludes the presentations. There will be more presentations on Wednesday, 19 October.

The next meeting of the joint committee is scheduled for Tuesday, 18 October to deal with EU scrutiny matters.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.25 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 18 October 2005.

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