JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS debate -
Thursday, 25 May 2006

Human Trafficking: Presentations.

Chairman

I welcome members of the delegation to the meeting, the purpose of which is to continue our discussions with a number of interest groups relating to prostitution and the trafficking of women into Ireland for sexual exploitation. At our meeting on Tuesday, 23 May 2006, we held a very informative discussion with the Open Door Network, Ruhama and Amnesty International. Two groups will make presentations at today's meeting. The first is the Irish Observatory on Violence Against Women, European Women's Lobby, represented by Ms Grainne Healy, and the second is the Inter-Congregational ad hoc Working Group Against Human Trafficking, represented by Sister Frances Robinson, Sister Sheila O'Gorman and Sister Maura O'Donoghue. I thank members of the delegation for attending today's meeting. Both groups will make presentations, followed by questions from members.

I remind participants that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not extend to those appearing before it so they must, therefore, be careful in what they say. I invite Ms Grainne Healy, who is the chairwoman of the Irish Observatory on Violence Against Women, European Women's Lobby, to make her presentation.

Ms Grainne Healy

I thank the Chairman. I thank the committee for inviting me to address it. My presentation will address six areas. I will speak about my own experience and expertise in the area of trafficking and prostitution. I will then discuss the type of legislation that will work to prevent and suppress trafficking and, at the same time, protect victims' safety. Following this, I will discuss the links between prostitution and trafficking and a forthcoming publication that I understand has been circulated to members of the committee. I will address the merits of the model used in the Netherlands, as opposed to those of the model used in Sweden. I will finally draw the committee's attention to two reports it may find useful and provide it with some specific suggestions about the possible content of future legislation when it is first drafted, in light of the fact that members' main role is as legislators. We hope such legislation will be introduced soon.

My expertise and opinion derives from five specific sets of experiences I have had. As the Chairman noted, I am the chairwoman of the European Women's Lobby Observatory on Violence against Women since 1996. This observatory brings together national experts on violence against women. The organisation, which once numbered 15 but now numbers 25, aims to share experiences of violence against women across the EU and beyond and, in particular, to share information about how member state governments are combating such violence.

The European Women's Lobby is a European wide network of women's non-governmental organisations, approximately 5,000 of which come together democratically under the lobby's umbrella to influence EU institutions to promote gender equality in all its forms and facets. Violence against women is obviously an area of great concern for the European Women's Lobby, thus leading to the formation of the observatory. In this context the phenomenon on trafficking and commercial sexual exploitation of women has increasingly been the subject of discussion at observatory meetings over the past ten years.

I am currently working with the European Women's Lobby on the development of a regional inter-agency network on combating trafficking in women for sexual exploitation in the Nordic-Baltic region. This project is funded by the Nordic states — Norway, Iceland, Finland, Denmark and Sweden — and involves both the Nordic states and the Baltic states — Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania. It seeks to set up a regional network of inter-agency bodies who will work to prevent trafficking, provide support services to victims and organise repatriation and safe return of victims. This project is just one year into its three-year life but has already shown interesting possibilities for application of learning to Ireland.

Monica O'Connor and I are co-authors of a briefing handbook on trafficking and prostitution for the European Women's Lobby and the Coalition against Trafficking in Women. This handbook was requested by women's groups in eastern European countries where women and men are struggling to combat trafficking and sexual exploitation. I have provided members with pdf copies of this document which will be launched in Ireland in June 2006, at which time hard copies will be made available.

As some members of the committee know, I am the former chairwoman of the National Women's Council of Ireland and vice president of the European's Women Lobby, which gave me the opportunity to represent Ireland at EU and global conferences, including UN meetings, where this issue has been widely discussed.

I am a member of the Irish Observatory on Violence against Women, an initiative hosted by the NWCI and supported by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform as part of a network of national observatories, the role of which is to report on Government progress on tackling violence against women. I refer members to the copies of the 2004 Irish observatory report I have provided, which focused on prostitution and trafficking. Its recommendations on page 8 are relevant to this discussion.

We agree that Ireland needs legislation to effectively combat the rising tide of trafficking in human beings. The recent media attention to the matter, especially the excellent "Prime Time Investigates" programme, has finally supported the work of the NGOs in the field, such as Ruhama, which reports dealing with more than 200 cases of women trafficked to Ireland for sexual exploitation.

What sort of legislation do we need? What will work to prevent and suppress trafficking while making victims safe? Our proposed legislation should refer to the internationally agreed definition of trafficking as contained in the UN protocol to prevent, suppress and punish trafficking in persons, especially women and children, that is, the 2000 Palermo Protocol. The definition is repeated in the Council of Europe declaration on trafficking.

The definition is important because it clearly says that trafficked persons are victims, require support and protection and must not be treated as illegal immigrants. The protocol recognises the need for assistance for victims and encourages efforts to prevent trafficking, prosecute perpetrators of this modern form of slavery and ensure forms of co-operation, including between police and judiciaries.

In Ireland, it is impossible to separate trafficking from the demand for prostitution services. The television programme amply showed the clear links between prostitution and the growing networks of traffickers working to meet that demand. The UN protocol calls on governments to take action to reduce demand for any activities that promote or create a demand or "pull" factor in trafficking. The "Prime Time" supplementary programme on Tuesday night supported the view expressed by experts at the EWL observatory for many years, that is, to legalise prostitution is to normalise and increase the demand for the purchase of sexual services.

For example, we see the impact of legalisation on the Netherlands where the police force is admitting failure to deal with growing levels of trafficking due to the demand for legal prostitution. Compare this to the Swedish situation. The Swedish Government has recognised prostitution as a form of violence against women and criminalised the purchase of sexual services. In surveys across Europe, eight out of ten Swedish men admitted to buying sex from women and 18% of German men admitted to using prostitutes regularly, as did 10% of London men.

There is no data on Ireland. However, the business being done by so-called escort agencies, telephone lines and Internet sex lines, in conjunction with the normalisation of buying sexual services from women — whether in lap dancing clubs, on-line or in apartments or hotels — anecdotal evidence of groups like Ruhama and the "Prime Time Investigates" programme, shows that many Irish men and other men residing here consider it usual and acceptable to buy sex. While I look forward to the forthcoming Trinity College Dublin study on prostitution in Ireland commissioned by the Irish Human Rights Commission, which is due to be published in June, I doubt that it will give much insight into trafficking specifically.

The question for the Irish is do we want to follow the Dutch model, where trafficking is out of control and the demand for more foreign and "exotic" women is fuelling the trafficking of non-EU women? Alternatively, could we examine the impact of the Swedish model, where the Swedish National Rapporteur on Trafficking notes that in 2003 and 2004, there has been a decrease in the trafficking of women for sexual exploitation?

The law in Sweden acts as a deterrent and sets a normative standard, that is, buying sex is not acceptable and can be subject to sanctions under the law if the political will exists. Swedish law has been accompanied by a significant investment in awareness raising campaigns on how buying sex is unacceptable and a criminal offence. Services to those working with women in prostitution have also been resourced. Some 7,340 men have been arrested under the legislation since it came into effect in 1999. Of this number, 1,400 between the ages of 16 years and 70 years pleaded guilty.

The legislation has an 80% approval rate among Swedes. The training of police in how to best implement the law has led to a 300% increase in arrests. The measure is actively supported by political parties and trades unions and has led to flanking legislation, including codes of behaviour for how Swedish nationals act in respect of the purchasing of sex when abroad, whether as tourists or as part of military or peace keeping forces.

While it was not the intention of the Swedish legislation, Sweden has seen a fall in the number of women trafficked into it. Unfortunately, perhaps we might ask whether the women have instead come to Ireland where there is an almost complete lack of regulation in respect of prostitution and an explosion of sex industry sites. This lack of effective legislation arises out of the confusion of some about the very nature of prostitution and how, by defending and failing to tackle it, we are protecting the rights of men to abuse women instead of protecting women, many of them vulnerable, from abuse and exploitation by men.

Whose rights are paramount, those of men to access women's bodies or those of women to freedom from exploitation? The lazy answer and the one most trotted out by elected representatives is that prostitution is the oldest profession. However, it is neither a profession nor a problem that cannot be solved. Members can read the recent research and argumentation on this matter in my co-authored publication on making the links between prostitution and trafficking.

l will draw the committee's attention to the February 2006 report by Ms Sigma Huda, the UN Special Rapporteur on Trafficking. She carefully chose her language in regard to this matter and wrote about how a human rights approach must be taken and a gender perspective applied to attempts to combat trafficking in women and children. She suggested that governments should use the definitions in the UN protocol, she explains demand and how it must be combated as part of any strategy to combat trafficking and she rejects the terms "sex worker" or "client", speaking instead of "prostitute" and "prostitute user".

There is no doubt that the use of business terminology in respect of this human rights abuse is one of the reasons there is a belief that women and children's bodies are purchasable commodities. Let us drop this market language and see the abuse for what it is. Ms Huda referred to the Swedish model of legislation and a similar model introduced in South Korea last year as effective strategies for combating trafficking and the national demand for sexual exploitation.

The first report of the Irish Observatory on Violence against Women was published in 2004. It focused on prostitution and trafficking as areas of violence against women in which the NGOs and violence experts believed there was a gap in legislative provision and consideration. The recommendations contained on page 8 of the report are worth repeating and perhaps we might see some action if this committee supports them.

In summary, the recommendations call for research into the extent of prostitution and trafficking in Ireland, including a consultation with NGOs working in the area. I am sure the committee is aware of and has examined the UK consultation document on strategies in prostitution, which was published in January. While some media treatment of that document was unfortunate, the principles used in the consultation and the document's underlying conclusions are relevant to Ireland.

The report asks for a high level ministerial group to examine the role of the sex industry in the phenomenon of trafficking in Ireland with a view to developing a strategic response. It asks for legislation to ratify the UN protocol and resources for service providers to ensure women's safe return. It also calls for leave to remain to be granted to victims. It calls for an examination of the Swedish model of legislation to criminalise the purchase of sexual services and proper data gathering. The report specifically calls for enhanced support for the work of Ruhama and other NGOs. A dedicated specialist NGO, perhaps supported by Ruhama, should be set up to co-ordinate the Irish response of NGOs to trafficking in women.

The situation in Ireland today has been described to the committee already by Ruhama and in other presentations in recent days. Best practice is emerging from the Nordic and Baltic project in which I am working to develop an effective regional network to combat trafficking, support victims and provide for repatriation and rehabilitation of victims and punishment of traffickers. In Ireland we need specific anti-trafficking legislation in which all steps in the trafficking process are defined and described in law to enhance identification and prosecution of traffickers. The Minister stated that legislation exists but other countries have found that specific anti-trafficking legislation makes enforcement much easier. A national plan to combat and prevent trafficking must be developed and a national office or officer for this work must be identified. Co-ordination of services to victims must be put in place and resourced. The normalisation of the demand for sexual services must be addressed. We propose that criminalisation of the purchase of sexual services would go a long way to addressing this.

Legislation must be put in place that follows the UN Palermo Protocol and should provide specifically for protection of victims of trafficking. This should include inter-agency co-operation between all those who play a role in supporting the victims, including the Garda Síochána, immigration officers, NGOs, health service agencies, immigrant organisations and legal services. The legislation should provide for legal protection and leave to remain, the lack of which was highlighted in the "Prime Time Investigates" programme. In Italy article 18 allows victims to remain in Italy and be provided with education, training and employment. In Norway victims are allowed to remain for 45 days but our work in the Nordic and Baltic states suggests that proper service provision and support dictates a six-month minimum period. Training of police and immigration officials in victim identification is crucial and support to victims should include services from NGOs, counselling, medical referral procedures and inter-agency protocols.

Legislation should also indicate how safe return of victims would take place between agencies in destination countries, such as Ireland, and countries of origin. Risk assessment on the potential for re-cycling the victim must be carried out. Many repatriated victims are often returned to prostitution and trafficking, such is their vulnerability. Victims may also face danger if repatriated to their countries.

Rehabilitation should include development of economic and social supports for the victims to ensure they can find an economic foothold that will allow them economic and social inclusion. All measures must happen nationally and transnational co-operation and regional strategies must be developed so that on a regional and global level the fight against trafficking has some effect in reducing the misery and suffering of hundreds of thousands of human beings. If we can shed the invisible cloak that surrounds trafficking in Ireland at the moment — including by making the links between prostitution and trafficking — we can clarify some of the reigning confusion. We should clarify the distinction between illegal immigration and trafficking, which has been done in other jurisdictions. We can continue to work as EU members to raise the standards of living and lower the levels of poverty here and elsewhere to combat the push factors that cause trafficking.

Criminalising the purchase of sexual services in Ireland and having penalties for prostitute users would allow the Garda Síochána a clear enforcement route. This would lead to a reversal of the current norm and a realisation that allowing men to continue to buy sex from any human being is unacceptable to society. This would have a visible and actual effect on the growing demand that is feeding the demand for trafficked women into Ireland where they are being bought and sold around the country. International criminal gangs are moving out of drug dealing and starting to traffic women. The penalties are lower, the chances of getting caught are lower and women can be resold as a commodity many times over.

In 2004 the Irish Observatory on Violence Against Women made recommendations to Government that went nowhere. The Irish people have spoken out in recent weeks, demanding that the Government move quickly to introduce the appropriate legislative framework to combat trafficking. I hope this committee can show the Irish public and victims of trafficking in Ireland that the political will exists to address this crisis swiftly and effectively.

Chairman

That was a clear exposition of the need for legislation.

Sister Frances Robinson

: Our ad hoc group represents a number of religious societies, a network of 1.5 million women and men. We operate under the umbrella of the Conference of Religious of Ireland and the Irish Missionary Union. This ad hoc group has been working on this group since 2005. We have a vision of a world in which all people are respected, valued and given the dignity to which they have a right and where no one seeks to exploit or enslave another for the purposes of sexual gratification or financial gain.

My main concern in this presentation is to highlight the terrible consequences for women who are trafficked. I invite the committee to consider the following job advertisement. It was devised to raise awareness by Whisper, an organization concerned by trafficking. Whisper holds the copyright to this advertisement based on stories of survivors of trafficking:

Help Wanted: Women and girls.

Do you want this job?

Are you tired of mindless, low-skilled, low-paying jobs? Would you like a career with flexible hours?

Working with people?

Offering a professional service?

No experience required.

No high school diploma needed.

No minimum age requirement.

On-the-job training provided.

Special opportunities for poor women, single mothers, women of colour.

Women and girls applying for this position will provide the following services:

Being penetrated orally, anally, and vaginally with penises, fingers, fists, and objects; being bound and gagged, tied with ropes and/or chains, burned with cigarettes, or hung from beams or trees; being photographed or filmed performing these acts.

Workplace.

Job-related activities will be performed in the following locations:

an apartment, a hotel, a massage parlour, car, doorway, hallway, street, executive suite, fraternity house, convention, bar, public toilet, public park, alleyway, military base, on a stage, in a glass booth.

Wages.

Wages will be negotiated at each and every transaction. Payment will be delivered when client determines when and if services have been rendered to his satisfaction. Corporate management fees range from 40% to 60% of wages; private manager reserves the right to impound all monies earned.

Benefits

Benefits will be provided at the discretion of management.

NO RESPONSIBILITY OR LEGAL REDRESS FOR THE FOLLOWING ON-THE-JOB HAZARDS:

Non-payment for services rendered;

Sexually transmitted diseases or pregnancy;

Injuries sustained through performance of services including but not limited to cuts, bruises, lacerations, internal haemorrhaging, broken bones, suffocation, mutilation, disfigurement, dismemberment, and death.

Note: Accusations of rape will be treated as a breach of contract by employee."

How many of us would encourage our sister, mother, wife or partner to apply for such a job? Do committee members believe such jobs exist? We know they do. We can no longer doubt it if we bring our minds back to the stories told on "Prime Time Investigates" on 8 May. The programme awakened the conscience of the nation in a way as never before and made us realise we fool ourselves to think Ireland is immune from the crime of trafficking for sexual exploitation. Furthermore, criminals can work with impunity in this country as no legislation is in place to deal with the issue. Neither do we have protective measures in place to help the women.

I will now examine the impact of being trafficked for commercial sex on women. Committee members may wonder what qualifies us to talk of the horrific emotional, psychological, and social effects on women trapped in this way. As a worldwide network of religious women and men, we are only too aware of the global scene. Within our group are people with anecdotal and first hand evidence of the appalling conditions experienced by women. Women who have suffered in this way speak of feeling crushed, diminished or rejected. They are treated as commodities, bought and sold, and have lost all sense of self-worth. A woman may have earned huge sums for the traffickers or may have been sold for only the price of a TV set.

The stigma of prostitution goes with them when they return to their home places. They fear they have brought shame on their village. Their sense of shame may cause them to blame themselves rather than the traffickers. The greatest emotional trauma is caused by fear. The woman fears for her personal safety, and the safety of her children and family to whom threats were made, to gain her compliance. There is also the threat that her family will be told she is working as a prostitute. There is fear of the clients, particularly the sadistic ones who feel they can do whatever they like because they have paid. There is the constant fear of STDs and AIDS, of becoming pregnant when clients refuse to use condoms, or being forced to have an abortion. There is the terror of being locked in a room, barred from contact with anyone except the clients and pimp, and the dreadful feeling of being trapped in a foreign country with no knowledge of the language or even of what country they are in. Some say they comply in order to stay alive. Others wish to die. One woman told us she saw a girl die after jumping from a building and she stated, "I envied her."

As religious, the dignity, rights and care of persons is our particular concern. However, we want to put on record today that the primary and ultimate responsibility for caring for people in Ireland lies with the State. My colleague, Sister Sheila O'Gorman, will now deal with our proposals regarding legislation.

Sr. Sheila O’Gorman

We take the view that counter-trafficking strategies must be anchored in a human rights framework and that trafficking is a multi-faceted issue which needs an inter-disciplinary approach. State and voluntary agencies, including pastoral, health, education and social, must combine in a co-ordinated and integrated effort to combat this evil. I insist we do not recommend the legalisation of prostitution, which some people erroneously suggest would solve the problem of trafficking.

We seek legislation that will provide for protection of trafficked people, criminal proceedings against traffickers, and international co-operation to address this modern form of slavery. We also seek legislation that gives a legal definition of trafficking, in line with the definitions of the UN Convention, the Council of Europe Convention and EU definitions, to include "exploiting relationships like those between parents and children".

We seek legislation which is broad enough to include all forms of trafficking, whether national, international transnational, or related to organised crime, regardless of who has been trafficked and whatever the form of exploitation. We seek legislation that regards trafficking as a grave violation of human rights and that distinguishes between trafficking, which is a crime against the person, and smuggling which is a crime against the State. We seek legislation which criminalises and penalises traffickers and effective, proportionate and dissuasive sanctions, as used in other transnational organised crimes.

Regarding persons trafficked, we want legislation to protect and safeguard the human rights of the person who has been trafficked, provide for the safety and health of the trafficked person, set out services to be provided as a human right, and do so within primary legislation, having regard to acute needs of trafficked persons and the importance of assistance to survivors.

We seek legislation that regards the trafficked person as the innocent party, regardless of activity engaged in while under coercion. I call the committee's attention to a particular case identified in the submission document. We want legislation which requires the destruction of any biometric data taken from the trafficked person, because such data is associated with criminal activity and we have serious questions about the storage and sharing of such data.

We want it recognised that trafficked persons are not criminals and should be placed under the care of the Department best equipped to provide for their special needs. We seek special protection and care for children, such care to be provided through the Departments for Health and Children and Education and Science, and ensure appropriate assistance for the child's family of origin. I refer the committee to the EU framework. We seek legislation which regards a child as a person under the age of sexual majority. We also want legislation to provide a reflection period of at least six months, to allow time for recovery from trauma within safe accommodation and not within hostels or other centres for asylum seekers, respecting the particular vulnerability of trafficked persons.

We want a core set of rights to be identified to which trafficked persons are entitled during their period of reflection or recovery and thereafter, and social assistance, to include health services, counselling and legal aid in the person's own language. I refer the committee to Palermo. We seek legislation which does not require the person to make a decision to return home or to apply for asylum until this period of reflection has elapsed. Assistance provided to trafficked persons should not depend on securing their co-operation in the prosecution of perpetrators. I refer the committee to the Immigration and Residency Bill and an EU council directive of 2004, which seem to suggest a trafficked person should be held to assist the State.

Regarding applications for immigration, we seek legislation which ensures no prejudice in subsequent application for immigration by providing for transparency and monitoring of the process. I remind committee members of current practice for asylum seekers. We seek legislation which clearly distinguishes between a trafficked person and a so-called "illegal immigrant". In general, the legislation should provide for co-ordination and cross-referencing between the main statutory bodies and Departments, with procedures for monitoring the co-ordination. It should also provide for and require adequate initial and ongoing in-service training, including a respectful approach to persons who have been trafficked. This training should be available to the Garda Síochána, immigration officers, prison officers, our peace-keeping forces abroad and all public servants who have dealings with trafficked persons. Further, the legislation must recognise that however successful Garda operations or EU projects may be, they are piecemeal and limited in scope and time. As such they are inadequate as a means to tackle transnational organised crime.

We have made recommendations. One is that we recommend that Ireland could give the lead in establishing a Europe-wide help line with an easily-remembered number. However, there would be no point in having such a help line established or advertised in airports, railway stations, Irish Embassies or Consulates abroad and so forth, unless there is a comprehensive 24-hour human response available. We also recommend that all Irish Embassies and Consulates, especially those in countries of origin and transit, promote awareness of human trafficking. We welcome the plan of the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, to meet his counterparts from Poland, Latvia and Lithuania to discuss best practice in dealing with the issue.

We hope the legal points and recommendations we have made will be helpful to the committee as it carries on its work of preparing for appropriate legislation for this country.

My colleague, Sister Maura O'Donohue, will now cover the question of the demand for commercial sex.

Sr. Maura O’Donohue

Trafficking in persons is a grave denial of human rights and is far more than a mere immigration problem. Action is urgently needed to control and eventually eradicate this trade. Addressing the demand is an essential part of combating and preventing trafficking in persons. Trafficking will not be eradicated until all the root causes are addressed. Some of these include poverty, which is the driving force behind trafficking in persons, the demand for purchased sex, profit, organised crime and viewing people as commodities.

At the centre of trafficking is the demand for purchased sex, which is growing. Sex is demanded from increasingly younger victims.

All over the world, whether in Bangkok or Bray, Lagos or Limerick, Dubai or Dublin, adult males are the predominant customers of prostituted women and children. Without them there would be no trade in commercial sex. The trade involves those who run bars, brothels, lap-dancing clubs as well as those who make and distribute pornographic material, create false passports, advertise sex tours, pay other adults to buy women and children and arrange sexual services at sporting events, business conferences and political conventions. As the demand for commercial sex grows, so does the need to entrap more and more women.

Trafficking in persons is not properly investigated or prosecuted. This is due to its hidden nature and the lack of appropriate legislation and commitment to its implementation.

According to Interpol, enormous profits are generated from trafficking in persons. A trafficked woman can earn between $75,000 and $250,000 a year for her pimp, although the well-known author, Mr. Victor Malarek, puts this figure at $500,000. According to another source, the total estimated profit from trafficking is $28 billion annually. A further $3 billion is made from persons sold into forced labour.

Trafficking in persons is a driving force in the spread of HIV and AIDS. It is universally recognised that multiple sex partners are a major contributing factor to the transmission of HIV. A woman who has been trafficked has no choice about the number of sexual partners who use her. The location of such encounters provides a breeding ground for HIV. If we ignore the links between trafficking in persons and the spread of HIV, we do so at our peril. In saying that, we stress the need for sensitivity to avoid adding to the stigma which the exploited person already suffers. Respect for such a person is paramount.

We recommend that the Government carries out research in countries of origin, transit and destination in order to generate a more comprehensive understanding of the dynamics of trafficking. Research is also needed to provide information on the harm caused by the market in commercial sex, both to the individuals involved and our society as a whole. Specific harm is done to residents of localities associated with on-street and off-street prostitution.

In the absence of the kind of legislation referred to by Sr. O'Gorman and Ms Healy, the message sent out is that women do not deserve respect, that they are mere commodities to be bought for pleasure and that commercialisation of sex is acceptable. Targeting the purchasers of sex with specific objectives and clear indicators will necessitate education and re-socialisation of men who purchase sex, targeting men to work as peer educators, provision of adequate financial resources and accountability and transparency, available to the public, regarding the profits derived from the sex trade. The financial gains of brothels and their like should be frozen and confiscated.

Once legislation is in place, we need a national policy of zero tolerance towards offenders. We also need transparency, monitoring and accurate reporting. In the meantime, we must stop denying the existence of trafficking.

Chairman

That was very useful in terms of our consideration of these matters. I will now ask members of the committee to pose questions, to which the witnesses can respond, en bloc, as it were.

Deputy Stanton

I welcome both groups and thank them for their very important, moving and disturbing contributions. Similar presentations were made by other groups earlier this week. There are a number of important issues in this area, not least the trafficking that is taking place and the prostitution resulting from it. That must be tackled head on. Obviously legislation is required. It might also be useful if a Minister of State was given specific responsibility for this area. I am struck by the term "modern-day slavery". A civil war was fought in the United States to eliminate slavery, yet women are again being deprived of their rights and forced into slavery. The working group's human rights based approach is the best way to address the issue but resources will be needed if it is to succeed.

I am struck by the fact that this society has become desensitised to pornography. Many of our newspapers carry advertisements by the hundred for sex lines. Do the delegates think a mindset is forming, especially among men, in which sex and people are viewed as commodities? A lot of money is being made from gullible men who spend a fortune on these lines. This issue is part of a larger mosaic in that society in general is becoming numb to it.

I would like to learn more about the Swedish model. Sweden is seen as a liberal country. It is interesting, therefore, that its government has decided to criminalise the purchase of sexual services. Ruhama made the point last week that it took Swedish people ten years to come to terms with this new policy.

The sex industry in Ireland is hidden and the Government has virtually no control over it. What resources are needed to address the problem? Is there a trained and dedicated Garda unit to deal with the issue and, if not, should one be formed?

Deputy Lynch

I thank both groups for their presentations. Yesterday, at a meeting of this committee with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, I inquired about this issue. He said a myth was being perpetrated because it was already illegal to traffic people to Ireland and that legislation was in place to allow the Garda to take action. How would the delegates respond to this?

Have we any indication as to the size of the problem in Ireland? Clearly, the purchase of sex should be made illegal but the level of resistance would be enormous. I once made a suggestion which is now seen as eminently practicable but at the time it was as if I had suggested we should depopulate the country by jumping off the Cliffs of Moher. The world fell on top of me. A similar response would be made to proposals to criminalise the purchase of sex, although this does not mean legislation should not be brought forward. There would be significant resistance because we still have a 1940s attitude towards sex, whereby prostitution is seen as a necessity that offers a release to unmarried or unhappy men. This attitude degrades men as much as women. We will have to be brave if we are to deal with the problem.

Deputy F. McGrath

I welcome the groups, the work of which is supported by the independent group of Deputies.

Ms Healy referred to the demand for prostitution services in Ireland, an issue we will have to address as part of the overall solution to the problem. She also described prostitution as a form of violence against women, which we all accept, but how do we convince men, those aged between 18 and 25 years in particular, of this because many do not seem to realise its true nature? This ignorance is especially noticeable during major social events, of which the forthcoming World Cup will be a classic example.

Ms Healy outlined the findings of a survey which revealed that 80% of Swedish men had admitted to buying sex. As that seems a very high figure for a country such as Sweden, I would like to know the source of her information. The equivalent figures of 18% in Germany and 10% in London are probably more reflective of the position in Ireland.

I agree legislation should be introduced to address the issues raised by the delegates but it should never be regarded as the only solution. At times, we get carried away with the belief that legislation will solve all of society's problems but that is not the reality. It is not the sole means of preventing the exploitation of women.

I have concerns about Ms Healy's claim that elected representatives describe prostitution as "the oldest profession". During the four years I have spent in the Dáil I have never heard this phrase used by Members, although I have heard it used in the media. Where did Ms Healy hear this description and why did she make the claim? Does she believe there is an undercurrent of acceptance in some political circles? If so, I would challenge her belief.

As regards the link between prostitution and poverty, do most prostitutes in Ireland and elsewhere come from lower socio-economic groups? What proportion come from middle or high income families? What percentage of children who were sexually abused or raised in dysfunctional families end up in prostitution? In my experience as a primary school teacher, many children from violent or sexually abusive families grow up to become rent boys or prostitutes or fund addictions to heroin through prostitution. Is that the broader reality? In the past five or six years, when the economy has improved, has the position in Ireland got better or worse compared to the dark 1980s when there were many stories about prostitution, particularly during the economic downturn?

Another issue mentioned by my constituents is the public houses, particularly in Dublin, that advertise topless dancing and shows. A number of constituents and friends of mine have complained that when they walk along certain streets in Dublin, they trip over signs advertising topless dancing. They want to know if the delegates find this creates a negative image for those involved in prostitution. Can we bury the myth that there is a connection between being a liberal and the issue of prostitution and exploitation? Liberal means being open-minded, inclusive and compassionate, not that one condones or accepts prostitution or the exploitation of women. Some in the so-called liberal countries say it is understandable. It is not. It is sexual violence against women and unacceptable.

Senator J. Walsh

I join in welcoming the groups which have made a valuable contribution to our deliberations. From their work, do they have any indication of the level of human trafficking to Ireland? Although the recent "Prime Time" programme highlighted the issue, the Garda made a statement downplaying the level. Do the delegates have any statistical information? Women who are trafficked into prostitution and operating in a slave trade would be badly affected psychologically, but has there been any professional research on the psychological effects of prostitution on those who participate willingly? The word "willingly" should not be used because many participate owing to economic necessity. Although it is often argued that legalising prostitution would allow it to be regulated and controlled to some extent, this was not the experience in the Netherlands. Both submissions recommended against it. Are there any statistical comparative figures for trafficking levels in some of the countries where prostitution has been legalised compared to states where it is illegal?

Senator White

I thank the delegates for coming and compliment them on their great work. I was not aware of the seriousness of the problem until I watched the "Prime Time" programme. While we are all familiar with the sight of prostitutes on the streets, I was devastated that men continued to carry out the sexual act and raped the women involved while they were crying. That struck a chord with me. I subsequently raised the matter in the Seanad and will send a copy of my motion and the response of the Minister. I will do anything I can as a Member of this Parliament to help the delegates. People commented on pimps but I have a problem with the customers, the men who are abusing the women concerned. I was delighted that the name of the apartments in Ballsbridge was shown on screen. One cannot beat this for pressure. I will support the delegates in anything they do.

Senator Moylan

I thank the delegates for a worthwhile and excellent presentation. It is about highlighting, publicity and increasing awareness. I hope it will be publicised as it should be.

People living in rural areas associate the problem with cities. From their experience and research, do the delegates see that, owing to our affluence, we have a serious problem in all our main towns? They have spelled out that there is a real problem, as we saw in the programme broadcast a few weeks ago. Have there been any surveys of the use of prostitution by men in Ireland?

The presentation was good and worthwhile. I hope that by speaking to Oireachtas Members, including those who are not able to attend but are listening to the presentation via the monitors, legislation will be enacted to improve the situation. Something must be done about the deplorable advertisements for chat lines in the newspapers. Newspapers that profess to be above board and are occasionally critical of politicians think nothing of accepting substantial moneys from bodies I deem illegal.

Deputy F. McGrath

Hear, hear.

Senator Moylan

Something must be done to tackle that issue.

Chairman

Deputies Stanton and Lynch referred to legislation going through the Dáil. They also referred to the Swedish model. What influence did the number of women in parliament have on getting legislation through? Deputy Lynch and Senator White would tell of the difficulty women face in getting through the glass ceiling in politics. In Dublin South East, a four-seat constituency with which Senator White is familiar, there will be only one woman from all the major political parties in the next general election. In my constituency which has five seats there is only one woman from the major parties. The chances are that only one woman will be elected.

Deputy Lynch

What is the position on quotas?

Deputy F. McGrath

I do not know.

Senator White

The battle is not over yet.

Chairman

I am lobbying hard for Senator White. Will the delegates put this in the mix?

Senator White

I decided to run for the Seanad after hearing a radio interview with Ms Healy in May 2002 in which she remarked on how few women there were in politics.

Chairman

She will be blamed forever.

Ms Healy

I will take that as a compliment.

Members have posed very interesting questions. I am worried by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform's reference yesterday to a "myth" surrounding the legislation. I understand why he wants the House and the public to believe a hotch-potch of legislation makes trafficking illegal. I accept that he is correct but if legislation is to be effective to the extent that it will lead to convictions in court, it must be trafficking-specific and break down the elements of what constitutes trafficking. The reason there have been so few convictions is the current legislation is so weak. It would be useful to hear the opinion of the Garda Síochána as the enforcer of the law. Current legislation constitutes a band aid approach and I regret that the Minister said what he did. However, he is also on record as saying legislation is in the process of being brought forward. I hope it will be soon.

We have no data on the size of the problem. The forthcoming report commissioned by the Irish Human Rights Commission from Trinity College Dublin might give some idea of its prevalence. The conventional approach has been to study how many women work in prostitution but I would like to know the number of men who purchase the services of prostitutes. Good upstanding citizens, men and women, find it difficult to accept that there is a huge number of men, each of them somebody's brother, husband or son, who regularly buy sex. The number of sex clubs and bars which stage sex-related events and the level of trafficking suggest a market of tens of thousands of men.

I must correct my presentation. The statistics from Sweden are worse than I stated. I used data from the Ministry of Industry, Employment and Communications in Stockholm on the buyers of sex. However, according to a study conducted by the National Institute of Public Health in 2000, one man in eight in Sweden purchases sexual services at least once in his life. These individuals represent a cross-section of Swedish men of all ages and social classes. Most are married or cohabiting and have children.

Chairman

Ms Healy's submission mentions a statistic of eight men out of ten, which is significantly different from one in eight.

Ms Healy

Yes. The fact that most are married or cohabiting and have children belies the notion that they are unfortunate men who are unable to develop relationships with other adult women. The image of the typical buyer as a lonely deviant is not borne out by the facts. He is much more likely to be a well dressed, well paid, middle class father on a business trip. Buyers have money, stability, educational qualifications and power, in marked contrast to the women and children they buy. A study conducted in Stockholm in 2002 found that almost 10% of males aged between 16 and 25 years had at some time paid for a sexual service. Thus, buyers are just as likely to be teenage boys with access to prostituted women via their computer in their bedroom at home. We do not know the size of the problem in Ireland but it must be quite large for the market to bear what "Prime Time" and Ruhama have revealed.

The point made about resistance to legislation criminalising the purchase of sex was well made. There is a misplaced notion, in Ireland and other states, that purchasing sex is a right of men and a freedom they have. It would be welcome if more men stood up and refuted this notion, and supported the right of women to be free from such abuse. Members are absolutely correct to say there has been desensitisation. It is very difficult for those of us who have sons in their twenties to continue to discuss with them the importance of young men and women negotiating their sexual relationships in an open, equal and non-abusive manner. They will sometimes respond that the clubs to which I referred are legal and that the women who work in them offer themselves for purchase. While some legislation has been introduced in Ireland without the full support of the majority, it can lead the way in combating the creeping normalisation of such activities, which works against the common interest. Deputy McGrath's background as a teacher gives him a good insight into the lack of understanding of the need for sexual relationships to be negotiated in a way that is not about power or does not involve an exchange of money.

We must stop speaking out of both sides of our mouth on this issue. On the one hand, we say we are against trafficking but, on the other, we say prostitution has always been with us and that there is very little that can be done about it. Members might recall the "Questions and Answers" programme which was aired after the "Prime Time" programme referred to. The Minister for Finance agreed that prostitution was one of the oldest professions. He was supported by a panellist from a newspaper which takes advertisements from the sex industry. I am speaking about the highest level of elected representative. I regret the lack of understanding of the complexity of the issue and the realisation that prostitution is a form of abuse.

There are very few statistical links in Ireland between poverty and prostitution, although Ruhama states many of the women with whom it has traditionally worked on the streets of Dublin have few or no educational qualifications, a drug habit and were early victims of sexual abuse. However, it also states the profile is changing, because of the impact of trafficking and the number of foreign women involved in the industry, many of whom do not operate on the streets. It finds it more difficult to gain access to these women, which is very worrying, given the level of slavery to which they are subject.

Members have a copy of the publication to which I referred on the links between prostitution and trafficking. It contains a section with international statistics for women who go into prostitution and were sexually abused as children, either in their family or other circumstances. The figures also apply to young boys. There is international research, even if there has been none in Ireland.

Deputy McGrath has asked if matters have got better or worse since the 1980s. It depends on how one defines it. Ruhama states the number of women who are victims of trafficking has gone up astronomically and that prostitution has been supported by the rise in the number of sex clubs and outlets, including topless dancing clubs. These all form part of the public desensitisation. If we have such clubs, there is a message going out that this is okay, that it is all entertainment. Either it is not entertainment, and we should ensure it is not seen as entertainment, or we decide that is the route we are going, and I think the public would like a debate on that.

To date, I have seen very few men who use prostitutes or men who are making money out of the exploitation of women who are willing to come forward and put their case and their rationale for this. I would like to see the rest of us, who perhaps have been quiet about this, speaking out and demanding they come forward with their rationale. Otherwise we need to speak out about this and legislate for it. I support Deputy McGrath's point about separating the idea of being a liberal and supporting prostitution. Being a supporter of women's human rights is clearly a way of making it clear one could never support prostitution because it is a form of violence against women.

There are no trafficking statistics in Ireland. There is a section in my handbook about the psychological effects of women in prostitution and the Sisters have referred to some of those. These would pertain not just to the women who are subject to prostitution directly from trafficking but also for what we would have seen as the traditional woman in prostitution in Ireland, pre-trafficking. The psychological impacts on women who are prostituted are enormous.

I would like to see some studies being done on the harm done to men, on their other relations, on family life and on society in general by using prostitutes. For far too long the media and we have focused on the so-called sexy issue of what prostitutes do and who they are. I would like to see our gaze turn away. We know what the women do and why they do it — levels of poverty, and in this case, being forced by means of trafficking because of their vulnerable situations. I would like to see all of us ask men why they become involved in this, why they feel that need, and why in Ireland they are doing it in so many numbers that we are generating this level of trafficking into Ireland for the purposes of sexual exploitation. It is not a Dublin-only problem.

The Chairman made a point about political influence. Some 30 years ago, the women's movement in Sweden began to debate possible legislation that would criminalise the purchasing of sexual services. It was not until they got 33% of women in the national parliament that the issue shot up to the top of the agenda. Those women — much like those in the Oireachtas — had no doubt in their minds of the statistics and the reality of this issue. It is interesting when women get the chance to speak about the situations of exploitation of other women. Unfortunately, we believe the levels are as high as they are and we believe the level of abuse is as high as it is.

The number of women in levels of decision-making has an impact on advancing this issue and others such as child care. Regarding the quota or ability, it is not an either-or situation. There are international ways of looking at this which could be discussed on another day.

Sr. O’Gorman

Deputy McGrath spoke about sending out public information. I would like to gift the committee with the opportunity of taking the responsibility — or giving it to the Departments of Education and Science and Justice, Equality and Law Reform — to provide public information campaigns as called for by the various protocols we mentioned.

It is fine to say "Prime Time Investigates" raised our levels of awareness and consciousness, but it is not up to that programme nor to any of the non-governmental organisations such as us to move forward, although we might bring matters to certain attention. The responsibility for raising awareness and for public information campaigns lies with the State. I recommend that this be taken seriously. The information campaigns need to be provided in schools and colleges and in the public realm using whatever means or methods we have at our disposal. The technology exists. On the United Nations website dealing with drugs and crime, short video presentations are given, as are radio excerpts or broadcasts which can be downloaded and used. I suggest the publicly funded bodies should be required to broadcast some of these short excerpts with the idea of raising awareness because they are available and free.

Whatever we are doing about raising self-esteem, we must realise it is important. On Saturday, I was a Munster woman — although I do not know about everyone else — and that raises the issue of morale and self-esteem. The issue of men as well as women whose self-esteem is low, who need to get a sense of achievement through using, abusing or violating others, is something we need to address as a nation. There are ways, although I cannot say what they are. I suggest one can find people who could find a way to go.

The Swedish model succeeded not just because there was legislation. It was not just about focusing narrowly on a problem. It looked at society in general and a package of measures was put in place which I would like to see in any legislation. Our first concern in such a package should be about the safety and welfare of women, children or men who are trafficked into the country, or abused and kept in bonded labour or slavery. If the current legislation were sufficient, we would have a greater number of convictions.

This is a nationwide problem. The issue was raised by Deputy Stanton and Senator Moylan about the problem as it exists outside Dublin and the problems faced by gardaí. A special Garda unit would be wonderful but insufficient. This is a nationwide problem, so every garda, prison officer — because some of the women end up in prison — public servant and man and woman who goes abroad as part of our peacekeeping forces needs constant in-service which is not to be provided on an optional basis. The in-service provided would enable them to do the work we know in our hearts must be done. It is not sufficient to have a day or a half-day for gardaí when training in Templemore. There are many gardaí of goodwill who want to do the right thing but who need the in-service.

I am presenting the committee with the opportunity to raise public awareness by means of information and education campaigns at all levels, not just in schools but also among the public. The campaigns should focus on the difficulties and the reality that abuse and violation of people is happening in Ireland and that we want to address this.

Sr. Robinson

We are talking of a multidisciplinary approach being needed. These women have been severely traumatised. They have been violated and raped and have had crimes committed against them.

With regard to trafficking, the issue of demand and the desensitising of society is important. Demand exists because of the buying power and there are men who have the ability to buy women. There is great desensitisation to the phenomenon in Irish society. There was no great hassle about the opening of Stringfellows, except from a small group protesting outside three nights a week. The legislation allowed it to open and we wonder why we are becoming more desensitised.

Deputy Lynch

The protest was not even about what was happening inside but about property values, which tells us something else.

Deputy F. McGrath

I do not think——

Chairman

Perhaps Sr. Frances could respond to the questions posed.

Sr. Robinson

On trafficking, we must address demand and how Irish society is becoming increasingly desensitised. On the issue of the well-being and health and safety of all, there is the matter of HIV-AIDs and STDs. The men using women who have been trafficked or are working in prostitution go home to their wives and partners. They may buy sex from women without the use of condoms or taking safety precautions. The men whom we have seen on the streets are not poor. Ordinary people use the trafficked women.

The last point relates to the notion that prostitution is the oldest profession in the world. We never thought that slavery would be abolished, yet it has been successfully eradicated. This proves that with the right approach it is possible to stop trafficking to protect human rights and the dignity of women and men.

Chairman

Some say this is slavery.

Deputy Lynch

Yes.

Sr. O’Donoghue

I will not repeat what has been said since I agree with all the statements made, but I would like to raise the point mentioned by Deputy Stanton regarding the media and advertisements in newspapers. This area must be addressed, since there is desensitisation and we seem to accept it.

On HIV-AIDS, when I was in Geneva two weeks ago, one of the AIDS representatives of the United Nations spoke very strongly to me about concern in Ireland regarding the high and increasing incidence of HIV. They have a major problem in identifying from where it is coming and think we will have a major epidemic in Ireland.

Chairman

That brings our discussion to a close. I thank the delegates for a very informative presentation which has helped to air matters. Everyone got involved. We will communicate with the Minister regarding their comments and responses to try to drive the programme forward. I thank them once more for their attendance.

The joint committee went into private session at 11.04 a.m. and adjourned at 11.06 a.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 30 May 2006.