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Joint Committee on Public Petitions and the Ombudsmen debate -
Thursday, 9 May 2024

Ombudsman for Children's Annual Report 2022: Office of the Ombudsman for Children

Our next business is an engagement with Dr. Niall Muldoon, Ombudsman for Children, to discuss the 2022 annual report, entitled Falling Behind, of the Office of Ombudsman for Children and related matters.

I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. They are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or to otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Before we hear from our witnesses, I propose we publish their opening statements on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

On behalf of the committee, I extend a warm welcome to Dr. Niall Muldoon, Ombudsman for Children, Ms Nuala Ward, director of investigations, and Mr. Páraic Walsh, investigator, Office of the Ombudsman for Children. Dr. Muldoon will make an opening statement for around ten minutes, after which we will have questions and comments from members, each of whom will have around ten minutes. That should allow for a second round of questions. I invite Dr. Muldoon to make his opening statement.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I thank the Chair and the committee for inviting us to discuss our 2022 annual report. I am joined by Ms Nuala Ward and Mr Páraic Walsh.

The Office of the Ombudsman for Children was established in 2004 by the Ombudsman for Children Act 2002. I am the second Ombudsman for Children. I was appointed in 2015 and reappointed for a second time in 2021. The Office of Ombudsman for Children is an independent statutory body with two main duties, namely, to deal with complaints made by, or on behalf of, children about the actions of public organisations, and to promote the rights and welfare of children under 18 living in Ireland. I will outline some of the work my office completed in 2022.

Our annual report, Falling Behind, was published on 16 May 2023. It is clear from our work that on many issues Ireland is starting to fall behind on children’s rights. There were 1,812 complaints made to my office in 2022. Education was the most complained about issue, with bullying, expulsion or suspension, and special education resources featuring in many of the complaints.

Falling Behind also features the stories of some of the children the Office of Ombudsman for Children worked with that year. This includes the story of Aisling, who told us that after making an allegation of bullying with a sexual dimension, the school made her feel responsible and that she was bullied by other students for reporting the abuse. The office took action and the school eventually apologised to Aisling, with the board of management updating its policies subsequently.

In 2022, much of our work focused on the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child’s review of Ireland. This included producing a comprehensive alternative report for the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, which highlighted areas of concern and made recommendations about actions the State needs to take to advance the implementation of children’s rights. We also worked with the our youth advisory panel to produce a children’s report, Pieces of Us, to the committee that consulted over 5,000 children. We then travelled to Geneva with members of our youth advisory panel in September 2022 to take part in a pre-sessional meeting with the committee and supported it to take part in the children’s meeting with the committee, in advance of that constructive dialogue with the State in January 2023.

The UN committee published its concluding observations in February 2023 and now, one year on from that publication, we have written to a number of Ministers to ask what their Departments are doing to implement the committee’s recommendations and ensure that the rights of children are respected and protected.

We engaged with a number of legislative and policy developments throughout 2022. These included the Education (Admission to Schools) Bill 2020; the review of the action plan on bullying; further developments around the general scheme of the mental health (amendment) Bill; the surrogacy-related provisions of the Health (Assisted Human Reproduction) Bill; and the Housing Commission's consultation on a right to housing in the Constitution. We appeared before other Oireachtas committees to discuss issues relating to mental health supports in schools and supports for children arriving from Ukraine. We also hosted a round-table discussion in December 2022 to consider possible interdepartmental and cross-service responses for teenagers at risk who have complex needs and are often placed by Tusla in unregulated accommodation.

In June 2022, we published Plan for Places, our report which focuses on forward planning of the provision of school places for children with special educational needs. This year, we will undertake work to examine what, if any, progress has been made to implement our recommendations arising from our report.

We decided to ensure that children’s thoughts and experiences of the pandemic were recorded so we launched our No Filter survey in February 2022 to hear directly from children and young people about life during this time. No Filter was an online survey featuring a wide range of questions based on common issues raised with the Office of the Ombudsman for Children and in the media. More than 1,300 children responded. The survey found that nearly half of the children surveyed felt their lives had changed significantly during the two-year pandemic; 74% experienced feelings of loneliness; and 83% of the children surveyed felt the pandemic had some negative impact on their learning. Falling Behind also details the office's direct engagement with children through our children’s rights workshops. As public health restrictions were being lifted in that year, we were delighted to welcome 1,100 children to the office, as well as meeting children on outreach visits to schools, child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, inpatient units and Oberstown Children Detention Campus.

In October 2022, we held events in Sligo and Limerick for children with disabilities. Beyond Limits is our unique festival-style event for children and young people with disabilities and their families to enjoy an inclusive and accessible day of speakers, performances and activities. Over 1,000 people attended these events. In December 2022, we published a report on the review of the Ombudsman for Children Act, which we commissioned independently. This report looks at how the role and remit of my office could be strengthened in a number of areas. We are working with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth to progress the recommendations made in that report.

In 2022, we hosted Child Talks, which is an event we hold every year to mark World Children’s Day. It gives a platform to children to speak about issues that are important to them. Our 2022 event, as some Members might recall, was held in the Oireachtas Library in Leinster House with the theme, "If I were Taoiseach for the day". On that day, a wide range of topics were covered, including homelessness, education reform, autism supports, accessibility, rural transport, female empowerment, the Irish language and listening to children.

The Office of the Ombudsman for Children will celebrate its 20th anniversary in 2024. We will market our anniversary throughout the year with various events and using our new commemorative strapline, "Tomorrow Starts with Us", which was developed following a consultation workshop with our youth advisory panel. In fact, we had our first celebration party two week ago attended by 100 children from Dublin 1. It was a fantastic start to the events.

This year is the final year of our current three-year strategic plan. We will continue to pursue our strategic priorities to promote children's rights to the highest attainable standard of mental health, ensure that children with disabilities in Ireland are seen, heard and counted and influence the education system of the future.

At the beginning of 2024 for the first time, we as an office submitted a report to the UN Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights as part of its periodic examination of Ireland's record in relation to those rights. Some of the areas of concern that we raised included Government expenditure allocated to children, discrimination against children, domestic violence, access to education, mental health and disability services and child poverty.

I thank members again for the invitation to meet them today. My colleagues, Ms Nuala Ward and Mr. Paráic Walsh, and I are happy to take any questions.

I thank Dr. Muldoon. I will ask two quick questions before I let other members in. In the Plan for Places report published in June 2022, the Office of Ombudsman for Children focused on forward planning and the provision for school places for children with special educational needs. What is the office's current view on how the provisions for these schools are organised each year, because we get it every year? It is like the school buses. It is absolutely crazy to wait nearly until school starts before starting to plan. What can be done better or what better planning would the ombudsman recommend to the Department in that case? Second, in its annual report for 2022, Falling Behind, the office was asked to act as an adviser for children's rights to the Mental Health Commission and its independent review on CAMHS. Dr. Muldoon went on to say that the office is awaiting a final report from that commission. Can Dr. Muldoon elaborate more on this and make suggestions as to how CAMHS can work better for everyone? We have seen how dysfunctional that can be at times. The witnesses can respond to those two questions and then I will let other members in.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I thank the Chair. On the idea behind the Plan for Places report, just as the Chair talked about in the case of politicians, we had continuous engagement with families who were concerned about not having a place for their child, even if they had been in the system for eight years through the primary school network. As we found it very difficult to deal with them on an individual basis, we felt it was important to start talking to the Department itself and find out where it was gathering its information, how it was being used and what its structures were. We engaged with the Department for more than a year to find out what it was doing within the building unit and the planning units and all the other elements that came with that. We felt that it was making progress. We made recommendations in which we asked the Department to further refine its data collection to ensure that no child was left without a place with plenty of notice. As the Chair also mentioned, it is often left to the last minute. When we published the report in June 2022, members will remember well that we found that 300 children were waiting at that stage. There was a huge amount of activity. Within three weeks, the Dáil passed an amendment to the Act that allowed the then Minister of State with responsibility for special education to force schools or to strongly encourage schools to open up places, which is something that had not happened previously during that period of time. That meant that that backlog was eventually cleared although I believe one or two children still were left behind.

Last year, we found there were fewer concerns about it. We did not get as many complaints about it but we see the complaints coming on again this year. We have written again and about a month ago, I wrote again to the Department of Education to state that coming up to the second anniversary of the publication of the Plan for Places report, we wanted to know where the Department is at at this stage and whether that has improved because we are still concerned that it has not moved in the direction that guarantees capacity across the areas.

Is there a reason? There was a rally in Clonmel in my own county last weekend with children with autism and this just keeps coming up. The data is there from when a child is young and has autism. It does not disappear in the May or June before he or she goes into school. Why is that kind of data not used to track children in autism all the way through? It should be used for school buses and school places from the time they are diagnosed to the time that they become 18 to an adult. There should be some sort of system in a developed country like ours that should keep that tracked in order that it is not a yearly fight for school places, school buses or being told there is no place in the school locally and that you must move to someplace else. Is there any reason that kind of data is not used on a continuous basis to track children with special education needs?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

It seems that locally there is knowledge but it does not seem to feed into a national plan that allows every area to get the funding it requires from within the Department of Education and the Government in a wider sense. There seems to be a real disconnect between the information being known and then being converted into places. It is difficult for me to understand that. We are certainly pushing this year again to try to make sure nobody is left behind because even at this stage in May, it is concerning for a parent if they have not received a letter of acceptance. Again, we know where the black spots are. There have been areas, particularly around Cork and other counties, as well as in parts of Dublin where children still are being bussed from one area out to another area and they are passing places where they could be in school. That sort of planning seems to be just nonsensical, given that we highlighted this two years ago and there were lots of promises at that stage from the then Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, that this would not happen again. We find ourselves coming to that situation again and I hope we will get some sort of answer from the Department of Education very soon in that regard. Hopefully it will be positive. Does Ms Ward have anything-----

In relation to the CAMHS-----

Dr. Niall Muldoon

On CAMHS, it is coming up to the one-year anniversary since it was published in July 2023. It was a hugely damning report. Members might remember the senior inspector in the Mental Health Commission could not reassure the parents of Ireland that the CAMHS system was safe. It cannot get worse than that as far as I am concerned. The senior inspector asked for immediate legislation in order that the Mental Health Commission could regulate CAMHS. That has not been forthcoming. That is the first step that had to happen. The senior inspector wanted an immediate strategic plan to be put in place in order that we knew exactly what was going to happen with CAMHS. That has not been put in place. There has been a move, in that two new positions,namely, clinical leads in CAMHS and clinical leads in youth mental health are now in place. They are trying to work with it but from what I can tell, they are working within the same system. They are not looking to change the system an awful lot or to investigate better ways of doing things but they are looking to shore up the system, which may not be the way forward. I thought we had to start from scratch. I thought we had to really look at it and say this is not working, we need to find a new way of doing it. Again, I will be writing to the Minister for Health himself and not just to the Minister of State with responsibility for mental health, as well as the relevant people within the Department of Health about the follow up. It is my understanding that without the regulation in place for the Mental Health Commission, it is not going to be able to follow it up itself because it has full-time work with the adult units and all the other elements it does. We will be following up on that as well but again, nine months or ten months later, it is highly unsatisfactory that we have not got any change or movement that is of major importance at this point.

Does Deputy Devlin wish to come in? The Deputy is probably going back into the Chamber in a few minutes.

Okay. Does Senator Warfield wish to come in or does Deputy Buckley?

The name of the report, Falling Behind, explains it all in terms of children's rights and we are in 2024. I wish to follow on from what the Chair was talking about with regard to mental health, the Mental Health Commission and CAMHS. Was that clinical audit of all the CAMHS teams ever done? I ask because in my former position as a member of the mental health committee here, which was a very strong committee, it would get into the nitty-gritty of things. Unfortunately that committee dispersed but what worries me here is what Dr. Muldoon said about how even with a new clinical director, if we are going to use the same ingredients to make the same cake, it is not going to change the taste of it and so there will be nothing different. That will be an absolute disaster. I also looked at the report from 2022 and in going through all the sections, whether it was child poverty, health, mental health or school places, I noted that as Deputies, each of us has what is called a constituency dashboard. I can go into this in my office, click into East Cork and into my own town of Midleton or click into a village down the road, such as Ballynacorra as an example. I can go into it and can tell how many kids of a certain age group are there.

I can tell how many kids have autism or special needs. All the data is there and a ten-year plan could be devised detailing what is needed in the next decade. If we have easy access to it, and this was all census data, the data is surely over 90% accurate and is a massive template.

Going back to children's rights, I have a case here that is very frustrating. A lady who was diagnosed with cerebral palsy at the age of three also had an issue with her hip. That girl is now 17 and she has not received a hip operation. She has gone through the whole children's section for the last 14 years and there has always been an excuse, such as were the operation to be done, it might clot, she is not strong enough or she is too weak. The poor child was brought the whole way through until she hit 17 a number of weeks ago and she is now in the adult section. Consequently, she is starting again. I met the family here a number of weeks ago. I went through the documents and they are fairly extensive, but after the fifth page it was clear what was happening. I do not know if it is within the HSE that it does not have the capability to carry out the procedure and it uses it as an excuse, but the mental torture for that child and for her family for 14 years is absolutely disgraceful. On her first appointment in Dublin, she was told that if they did operate, she might never walk again. Yet I know of a doctor in the United States who can do a operation and who claims the girl will walk in six weeks.

Is there a system within the ombudsman's office for this issue - because I know it is limited? Even for that girl, how could the ombudsman get to it? I have approached four separate Ministers and still have not received a response for this person. This is only one case. I know of a very similar case where the child is seven now and the family is getting the exact same excuses. Is there a way of investigating things like that? I know it is a lot to take in now and it is new to the witnesses but it is very frustrating for me and for the family.

Is there a way to hold to account those who are responsible for making these excuses? I call them excuses and I might be wrong, they could well be correct but yet I have the last clinical report from that child's assessment and a surgeon in the United States stating this and that are incorrect, that is untrue and that the surgeon can deal with clots and does this all the time. I am here as the public representative trying to get answers for that family. I have been sidewalled within the Department and within the Ministers' office and yet I have no way of going into the HSE and asking what is happening here? Is there power within the remit of the Ombudsman for Children to investigate something like that?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

It certainly sounds like there is something worth chatting to the Deputy about or chatting to the child or the parent, whichever wants to come to us. Especially since the child is still 17, we can certainly look at it. The Deputy has heard me complain before about the transfer at 16 in the medical world which does not make sense a lot of the time.

Absolutely, yes.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Obviously, one of the questions I will be asking is about treatment abroad. Was that considered an option?

The problem was that it is in America. It is not within the European Union.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

It is not impossible. We know there have been situations where that has happened but-----

I even know the figure. The total package is approximately €300,000. When the budgetary Revised Estimates are looked at every year and one sees how much additional money the HSE gets to pay compensation, legal fees and stuff, it is really frustrating for families to be in that situation for so long. They have been very open and frank with me. They have given me full permission to use names and documents. I have raised it numerous times here and I cannot even get an acknowledgement as an answer for the poor family. I think it is absolutely disgraceful and it is not the only one.

The other issue I want to talk about is child poverty. It is 2024 and we are still stuck in child poverty. We know the knock-on affect of that with inappropriate housing. The ombudsman mentioned, and I have cases and am well aware of it, of bullying in schools and the Department or the boards not taking responsibility. It is shameful they have to come to the Ombudsman for Children to investigate it and get them to admit that they made a mistake. We all make mistakes, my God I am brilliant at it. I am absolutely amazing at making mistakes. But people who make mistakes should put up their hand. People do not make mistakes, mistakes make people who they are.

In the office of the ombudsman, and we have worked on different reports over the years, it seems to be the same pattern. Going back to what Dr. Muldoon said at the outset in regard to CAMHS, if the same thing keeps getting done, the same results will be achieved. As a committee, is there anything we can do to progress the ombudsman's work? It has to work both ways. We are not here to interrogate the witnesses. We are trying to get the information across on both sides and to do anything we can to make progress. While the regulation of CAMHS makes sense, it still has not been done. However, plenty of money will be found to compensate the families for the incompetence of not doing the right thing. That is very frustrating.

It is my passion and my background is in working with young people and giving them a chance. What I loved about it is that the ombudsman's office had its own youth advisory panel and were including the stakeholders. I love the quotes in the report where someone said the best bit in the whole beyond limits programme was getting to meet and spend time with new people and to make his speech about standing up for people with disabilities and his journey to independence. What a fabulous statement. But that shows what happens when people are given a chance. I think what is wrong in society here is that the top tier are always the ones who are dismissive and condescending. I have often given talks to, say, third-year students around mental health and stuff. I might have a big plan to have a great chat with them and all of a sudden I say one line and ask who would like to speak. A tsunami of hands then goes up because they all feel comfortable that we are all in the same boat. You end up crying when listening to their stories because they are the experts. They are the ones who are living these experiences.

As I said, I might email the ombudsman on that case once I talk to the family but I think that is all I have on it. It is crazy that we are talking about the Falling Behind report in 2024, especially with children's rights, families' rights, mental health, Travellers and transport. Transport is another issue. That happens absolutely ever year, probably from April onwards until right up to September when each of our offices is absolutely lambasted, whereas if one went to the constituency dashboard, one can nearly tell how many kids there are. The ombudsman is right. I know of buses last year that passed four schools. Two buses come from Cobh. One comes out of Cobh Cross, turns right, goes to Glounthaune and passes Carrigtwohill where there is a massive school campus. The other one goes to Midleton and passes Carrigtwohill but yet they could not get 33 students onto that bus in order to drop them in Carrigtwohill. It is very dysfunctional.

I will come back to the witness on that case but I thank the Ombudsman for Children for all the work they do. It is invaluable and it is invaluable to us as a committee to have it discussed and to try to make things better. I think all of us are here to make things better. I never thought about getting brownie points, there is no such thing as that. It is about doing the right thing now to build the rights of people in the future. I thank the Chair.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I thank the Deputy.

I thank all the witnesses for their work, particularly in terms of ending homelessness for children, reforming CAMHS or the mental services and on school places for everybody. There were two pieces of legislation I wanted to ask about, one of which concerns the ombudsman's own office, namely, the Ombudsman for Children Act 2002. I also want to ask about the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act 2022. I might start with the legislation that concerns the ombudsman's work. There was a review of the Act. Is Dr. Muldoon aware of a proposal to amend the Act in line with the recommendations and does he have any comments on that?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Yes, we are in ongoing negotiations with the Department of children on how we move forward on these.

The priorities we have at the moment are areas in which we felt there was a gap where we were not providing the service we would like to provide. One of them was in Oberstown where children are detained. Many of the children are kept until they are 18 and a half years of age. We essentially want to extend our remit to 18 and a half years for the children there because it does not make sense to go to an adult ombudsman for that six-month period of time.

Second, we found that more and more children are staying in school after 18 years of age. Again, we felt it would be appropriate for us to take complaints while they are still in secondary school. There may be a situation. We will have to figure that out because in theory, the Ombudsman should take them on once they are 18. There may be a little bit of duality there but we have to figure that piece out with the Ombudsman. He is okay with the idea. It makes sense that most children would think to come to us first. We will just have to figure that one out.

The third issue was aftercare. We want to match whatever the age is in the aftercare legislation, so we do not have to change it. If we change the aftercare age later on, we would want to have sight of those children until they are out of aftercare as well. Therefore, we are working with them around those areas at the moment.

Surely, one of these cases would be enough. It sounds like a very common-sense thing. Would there be many incidences or cases where people would say Dr. Muldoon is not the appropriate ombudsman?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

It is not the case. People will probably let us do it, but we still want the security of being able to know the legislation backs us.

Mr. Páraic Walsh

The point is that a lot of the time when children in care hit 18 and age out and reach maturity, it is then they start asking questions about what is going on or who made decisions on their behalf or what led to here. Therefore, it is part of that maturity to know what to ask about that. A lot of times, too, the planning for children who are turning 18 in aftercare only starts in maybe the last year or so. Therefore, the issues they are complaining about are happening while they are still a child by law at 17. There is a real common-sense and pragmatic reason for us wanting that if that makes sense.

Yes. Therefore, the legislation is certainly not at an advanced stage or is not being drafted yet.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

No, it is not being drafted. Usually with small pieces like this, as the Senator will know, we are probably looking at adding to something. We are trying to find Bills that we can use around it. The Child Care Act 1991 is being considered. We are not sure. However, many other ones are being looked at as well. It is about always trying to be prepared when an opportunity comes. That is probably what we will be doing.

That is very helpful. I am a member of the Joint Committee on Media, Tourism, Arts, Culture, Sport and the Gaeltacht. I covered the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill and fought hard for the individual complaints mechanism, which Dr. Muldoon mentioned in his report. I believe I am right in saying it rolls out for children first. How important does Dr. Muldoon think that change will be for young people?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I think it will be huge. Again, I have tried to keep in regular contact with Coimisiún na Meán. It has been working on learning from us as well as to how to deal with children and young people. It has not got that expertise yet. It is working to build it up. Once it comes into being, however, it will be very important. As the Senator has heard from our work, it is hearing the voices on the ground where people have been impacted. That is what makes it much harder to deny the negative impact on our children. If we are doing a systemic thing, it is one thing, but if we can hear from individuals, we get much more of a nuance of where the gaps are. To not have that would be a huge breach of children's rights and individual rights because, obviously, it will work for adults as well. From the point of view of children, obviously, being the most vulnerable, it is important that we get that system up and running as soon as we possibly can.

It is great to hear Dr. Muldoon is engaging with Coimisiún na Meán. It is a very fast-growing organisation. It is good to hear he is in contact with it. I thank him for his work. I appreciate it.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I thank the Senator very much.

I will ask a couple of questions. In January of this year, Dr. Muldoon's office wrote to the Minister for Justice asking that the office be removed from the new strategy combatting domestic and gender-based violence because funding was being cut, or it had been promised but just did not come through. Can Dr. Muldoon outline the reasons behind that? What, if anything, has happened since?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Yes, the Cathaoirleach is right. That was a particularly difficult letter for me to write. We had been extremely encouraged by the new domestic, sexual and gender-based violence strategy. It was the third strategy that came into place. For the first time, it mentioned children as victims and acknowledged that children need action from the State around domestic and gender-based violence. Then, the Department of Justice came to us - we did not go looking for it - and asked whether we would look at overseeing the actions with regard to children in this action plan over the next five years. We said that it was a great idea and we would love to do it but that we needed an extra bit of resources. The Department said that should not be a problem and there would be no issue with that. We got into negotiations on that basis. We agreed to have our name put into the implementation plan through the Department of Justice on the basis that it would link with the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and create a funding source for us, so that we could bring in new staff because we did not have staff. We knew we would need staff at a high level to do this full time. We want somebody who is going to be strong and able to negotiate across different levels. We engaged with full openness and transparency around it. We let it go in the first year in the budget when it did not come through.

We had been negotiating for approximately one year at that stage. I met the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth in November of that year and he had never heard of it. After one year of negotiating with the Department of Justice, we let that go by. We followed through the following year and said that we had to make sure this happens now. It did not come through the following year either. I met with the Minister for Justice who said it was not going to happen either. When it did not happen the third time, I said that what the Department was doing at that point in time was giving credibility to its actions by using our organisation. I said we were not going to allow that to happen again. The Minister for Justice was very disappointed and said it was not her problem and that it was the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth's job to get the money for this office. That is not the way the negotiations had gone previously. It was meant to be a joint operation. The last piece of hope we had was that the Revised Estimates this year might give something. That has not happened either. Unfortunately, as ever, we are now seeing another situation in which we have a fabulous piece of paper with all the right things on it but not the willingness to put it-----

No willingness to follow it through.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

There is no willingness to follow it through. We are talking about maybe €150,000. I am not sure exactly what we asked for, but it was something in that region for the children's actions with regard to what we know is a growing problem. Domestic violence is growing, unfortunately, and so is sexual and gender-based violence and issues around gender and all those sorts of things that children are coming into contact with, which this strategy is meant to deal with. Now, there is a gap. It is very disappointing and very disheartening.

It is actually a scandal for such small money that this kind of work cannot be done.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I would have thought so. It does not seem to make sense.

Did Dr. Muldoon say he was in communication with the Department of Justice, which said the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth should be doing it, and that the Minister with responsibility for children had not even heard about it in the first year?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

At that point, the first time around, yes, because we were in negotiations and discussions before the strategy even came out. The Department officials were chatting to us about this possibility. They came up with the possibility that we would became the observer or monitor of children's actions and we said "Yes". That was about six months before it was published. Then, approximately six months later, we met the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and he had not heard about it. Even the following year, whatever was supposed to have happened did not happen between the Departments.

Therefore, I take it there is nothing happening with that strategy at all at this stage.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I cannot say what is happening.

The Office of Ombudsman for Children has pulled back, however.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

We have no role in it whatsoever.

It has no role at all.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Again, it is very disappointing because it was a really exciting opportunity. We do not take these roles on lightly and we would not have looked for it. However, when it was available like that, it looked like an ideal fit. Many of the domestic violence agencies and NGOs and operators felt it was a very good idea to move forward with us involved in the implementation plan.

As Deputy Buckley said earlier, if we were to put pressure on the Department and it had to come up with the funding, would Dr. Muldoon's office be willing to come back in and do that work?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Absolutely. It is a worthwhile piece of work. We would be delighted because children's rights are written all over it.

They are all over it.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

It would be ideal.

One thing we can do here is try to put that pressure on.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

The committee will probably have to write to both Departments.

Chair, can I come back in on that?

Yes, go ahead.

Dr. Muldoon mentioned €150,000, which you would find on the back of a stamp in here. That is how little money it is. As I said earlier, I do heed the requirement about investments.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

The accountant might give out to me; I am not exactly sure of the amount, but it is not big.

Even if it were doubled it would still be small in the overall scheme of things and what the strategy can do.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Correct.

In the Revised Estimates for 2018 an additional €250 million was given to the HSE. This was not to improve services, if you know what I am saying. It was not as much last year; it was around €56 million. It just goes to show how money is not being spent properly when we have this document ready to go but we cannot get it done for a couple of hundred thousand euro. We speak about figures here but this is a minuscule amount of funding and the benefits of doing it would be absolutely priceless. It does not surprise me. As I said earlier, I have been to four different Ministers on one case and I am still like the child knowing a birthday card is coming in the post but not knowing how much is going to be in it. This is how frustrating it can be here. I certainly second what the Cathaoirleach said. If committees can put pressure on Ministers to assist everybody to do the right thing that is how we should work.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

The key is that this was going to be monitoring. It was about keeping the pressure on. As we know, we write great strategies but the follow-through is the crucial part. We were looking forward to helping to make this happen. I am not sure whether it is happening or where the actions are.

The committee will follow it up and try to put pressure on. As Dr. Muldoon has said, gender-based and domestic violence are a problem. Everyone admits they are on the increase. To think a strategy such as this, which would be a massive help for such small money, is not happening when I can assure everyone that while we are having this conversation the HSE has wasted this kind of money already today. As a committee, we will chase it up and come back.

Recently Dr. Muldoon attended St. Joseph's national school in Tipperary town about a development programme there. It is the growth mindset initiative which embraces all of the challenges and overcomes the setbacks. Will Dr. Muldoon give us a further insight into this initiative and how it could be spread to various schools?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I had the great honour of going down to St. Joseph's national school to meet the teachers and children who are working this way. Essentially they have taken a programme from the United States, I think. Forgive me but I do not have all of the details. The idea is that throughout the school the children are taught as groups to be caring and kind, considerate of each other and to believe in each other. They are taking a holistic approach in the primary school education system to send the children out with a much broader understanding of who they are and who each other is. It was very clear that all of the children have grown in confidence. I saw children on the stage from junior infants upwards singing and dancing.

It is not just this. It is also that the message they are putting forward is very positive. Essentially growth mindset is this idea that, as Deputy Buckley spoke about, we will make mistakes but our job is to learn from them. It is about progress and not perfection. It is this idea. If we teach our children this in our education system a lot more can be done. They will not be worried about having to be perfect or getting an A or a H1. They will be worried about being as good as they can be, which may not be as good as or may be different to the person beside them. They may be better than the person beside them but everybody is equal. It is a very refreshing approach in education.

St. Joseph's is doing this very well. I do not know how many other schools throughout the country are doing it. To be fair, the primary education system is much better in this direction. It is much more holistic and growth-oriented than post-primary education. It is moving in the direction of doing what the child needs as opposed to what the curriculum needs. This is very impressive. To be fair to St. Joseph's it is probably five years ahead of where many other schools will start to follow.

Does Dr. Muldoon feel that more and more schools will start following?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I think so. I was at an event two weeks ago with the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, which is reviewing the primary curriculum. It will be much more about the child as opposed to the curriculum. There will be much more movement in classes. There will be much more outdoor work and encouragement of the child's holistic skills. If a child is good at singing, dancing, poetry or gardening they will have these opportunities as opposed to having to sit down and follow a curriculum.

Or worrying about grades.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Exactly. Primary level is moving in this direction and secondary level will have to start following it very soon. It is about putting the child at the centre of the process, which is fantastic. St. Joseph's is definitely doing that.

It is a brilliant initiative.

In October last year Dr. Muldoon spoke about over-reliance on the private commercial sector for accommodating children in international protection. He called on the Government to move away from this system for emergency responses. What is his take on the plans that have been reported regarding the acquisition of big accommodation centres and the White Paper that has been spoken about? Does it seem to be shelved? What is Dr. Muldoon's take on it?

Ms Nuala Ward

As the Cathaoirleach may be aware, we did a large investigation of accommodation for people seeking international protection in Ireland. We remain deeply concerned. We published a special report last year, for the first time in the history of the office, calling on the Government to cease the use of private commercial hotels and to look at the issue of congregated settings. These children do not live in normal circumstances. They live in massive establishments with many adults. It is not typical. There is no question that it will have an impact on these children as they grow up. We will continue to call on the Government to cease the use of commercial hotels.

Of course we have to welcome any non-profit approach and the purchase of State-owned properties but, again, the type of State-owned property is very important. We cannot keep this idea of large institutions for children. We will keep fighting for the rights of these children to live in the most normal way possible and to grow up in the most normal way possible. For us this is not just about direct provision. We think it is very important that children in emergency accommodation or who are homeless should not live in places where at a moment's notice they could be moved because their parents have no control over it. These children miss out on their friends, schools and networks. It is very damaging. We will continue to pursue this issue on behalf of children.

I agree. Those who have settled and integrated in communities over the past two or three years are now being told they will be moved. At this stage children have integrated in sports' clubs and parents are involved in tidy towns committees. To speak about moving them sounds crazy.

The office's three-year strategic plan ends this year. What are the post-Covid strategic priorities for the office to promote children's rights?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

The Cathaoirleach has caught us in between times. We are due to start looking at our strategic priorities next week.

That is good news.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

We are going to go green field. Things that have been spoken about are social media and AI. These are new, and even three years ago they would not have been a concern. I started to hear about ChatGPT two years ago. These will have to be considered. Unfortunately issues such as homelessness are still there, as is direct provision, as Ms Ward spoke about. If we put them all together, there are the children in homelessness, children in international protection, children from Ukraine, children in direct provision and children in special emergency accommodation. There are so many children in transitory settings and we have to look at these areas. We are not quite sure what we will settle on but these are the issues that are standing out. Other areas have been spoken about also.

Ms Nuala Ward

It is very important for us to be able to focus on the integration of children from all different communities into Ireland in a very positive way and to celebrate how the diversity can impact in a good way for communities, sports and Ireland overall. What we hear from young people is that they are delighted to have this range of students from all of these countries sharing their classrooms, learning and becoming excellent athletes and GAA players.

They are contributing in a hugely positive way and perhaps that is getting lost in the current narrative. I hope that will be a significant focus for us as well. That is what we are planning.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Yes, it is a work in progress.

I have just one last one question. In September 2022, the Ombudsman for Children's Office and the Youth Advisory Panel met with the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child. A year later, they wrote to all Ministers to ask what their Departments were doing to implement the recommendations that came out of that meeting. Has there been any response? Again, for some reason, it is bringing a smile to Dr. Muldoon's face.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

Yes, we are still waiting for responses from some. We got an initial response back asking: "Why are you asking us this?" It did not make sense to some people in some Departments. They asked: "Why do we have to report to you about this?" We had to explain to some people that this is part of what we do. We have not done it before, but I know many children's commissioners and ombudsmen around the world do that on a regular basis. They link in with Departments to see what is going on as a result of the UN committee. They felt that if it was not the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth asking, they did not need to respond. Now we have got that cleared up, I hope we will get a series of responses back in the near future.

Is Dr. Muldoon's office waiting long for the responses?

Dr. Niall Muldoon

No, to be fair, it is only probably about a month and a half at this stage. In another couple of weeks we will see where we are with it, but I would not leave it much longer than that.

I want to correct the record. I made a mistake earlier.

Not at all. Deputy Buckley never makes mistakes.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I hear that mistakes make the man.

I put my hand up straight away. The Minister of Health passed on my case to another Minister. That is the only response I did get. I must give credit where it is due. Like Dr. Muldoon's experience, when a Department is contacted, it is not their responsibility and issues go from one Department to another. I just wanted to put that on the record.

I do not know how we are going to finish the rest of the evening. Deputy Buckley has admitted to a mistake.

We will make the headlines with that one.

There is no one else online so I thank Dr. Muldoon, Ms Ward, and Mr. Walsh. It has been a pleasure having them in and listening to their concerns. We said we will follow up on issues. If there is anything else outside what has been raised, they should please get in touch with the committee.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

I appreciate the offer to follow up on those issues, a Chathaoirligh. It would be useful too to follow up on the issue relating to the regulation of CAMHS. That would be fantastic as well.

Yes, we will do that. If there is anything else we can help Dr. Muldoon with, we will follow it up.

Dr. Niall Muldoon

We will come back to the committee. I thank the committee so much.

Ms Nuala Ward

I thank the committee.

We will suspend the meeting for five minutes to allow the witnesses to leave. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 2.33 p.m. and resumed at 2.36 p.m.
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