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JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS debate -
Tuesday, 5 Oct 2004

Consumer Debt Litigation: Presentation.

I am pleased to welcome Mr. Michael Culloty from the MABS National Development Company, Mr. Paul Joyce, barrister with the Free Legal Aid Centres, and Mr. Donal Yourell, money adviser with Offaly MABS, who are here today to make a presentation to the committee on consumer debt litigation.

Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members who wish to make a declaration on any matter being discussed — the only declarations I could see us making would be to the effect that we all owe money in some form — may do so now or at the beginning of their contributions. Members are also reminded that if there is a possibility of a conflict of interest — I do not know if any members work for any of the lending institutions — they should make a declaration of interest now or at the start of their contributions.

I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, this same privilege does not apply to witnesses who appear before the committee. While it is generally accepted that witnesses have qualified privilege, the committee is not in a position to guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses who appear before it.

I am obliged to read that general preamble for everyone's benefit but I am sure our guests, particularly as they include a barrister of Paul Joyce's standing, will not encounter any difficulties. I thank our guests for taking time out of their busy schedules to attend. The normal format is that one, two or all of our guests may make presentations, of which members will take cognisance. This is an important area and we are interested in hearing how the operations of MABS might be further advanced. Paul Joyce has written an extensive report on the Free Legal Aid Centres. Following the presentations, members will ask questions on the various areas to which our guests will refer.

Mr. Paul Joyce

I thank members for the opportunity to address them today.

The background to this area from our perspective is that a booming economy and increased prosperity in recent years have brought with them some unpleasant side effects, one of which is spiralling consumer debt. Tracking the increases in the extension of credit through the Central Bank quarterly bulletins has become a spectator sport for financial journalists in recent years, with regular warnings that the dangers of over-extension are very real. Consider, for example, the Central Bank's warning in its financial stability report of 21 September that mortgage rates, which currently stand at 3.5%, could rise as high as 6% in the coming years, leaving mortgage borrowers exposed to high risks of default.

The culture relating to lending and borrowing has changed dramatically in the past decade. Interest rates have been low, so financial institutions have sought to maintain their profit levels with saturation lending. Many borrowers, particularly those who are young, regard access to credit and the maintenance of their credit records as a fundamental right. The development of this consumer credit market arguably has been encouraged by the State since consumer spending stimulates economic growth, creates jobs and fuels the economy. However, not everyone can manage to keep a straight course. Some consumers over-extend and avail of credit facilities that are beyond their capacity to repay. Many more suffer deterioration in their financial situation caused by illness, separation or unemployment. At that point, consumers may come into contact with debt collection and the legal system. It is how the system deals with inability to pay that is the issue of concern and that brings us here today.

The Money Advice and Budgeting Service was first established in 1992 as five pilot projects to assist persons who got into debt with moneylenders. It has now grown to a service with more than 50 officers throughout the country, funded to the tune of €11.4 million annually by the Department of Social and Family Affairs, and dealing with debt to a vast array of creditors, not just moneylenders. It is estimated that MABS has an existing client base of approximately 25,000, with at least 12,000 new clients in 2003. The free legal advice centres, FLAC, have worked closely with MABS since its inception, providing legal advice and training to money advisers to assist their clients, all of whom have financial problems ranging from cases that can be managed relatively well over time to increasingly severe cases of multiple and chronic over-indebtedness. Through this work it has become increasingly clear that the legal system in regard to the collection of debt does not serve well debtors, creditors or taxpayers.

This work culminated in the publication of FLAC's report, An End Based on Means, in May 2003. The report examines how the legal system treats consumer debtors. It examined UK and international practice and proposed a root and branch reform and updating of the system to reflect the reality of living in a modern European state at the beginning of the 21st century. It notes that the legislation for enforcing money judgments in Ireland has not been altered in a substantial way since 1940 and that Irish bankruptcy legislation, even though it was amended as recently as 1988, does not contain a specific consumer option, unlike its European neighbours, and still takes a punitive approach more reminiscent of the 19th century. It notes also that imprisonment for non-payment of court orders relating to civil debt or fines for minor criminal offences is still a reality in Ireland in 2004.

A number of recommendations are made in the concluding section of the report. Some of the issues addressed include the following. Many people in debt coming into contact with the legal system have more than one debt. The debts are usually uncontested in that borrowers accept the money is owed but are not in a position to pay contractual instalments and are seeking to make an arrangement to repay on a phased basis. At the earliest possible stage, therefore, a person's ability to repay needs to be assessed. There is nothing to be gained by a variety of creditors individually pursuing a person in debt through the courts. An assessment of ability to pay should be based on sound money advice principles involving the assembly of a detailed and verifiable financial statement with which creditors can take issue. A State funded infrastructure, namely, the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, is already in place to achieve this.

At present, applications to enforce judgments take place in open court. This can result in many debtors not responding to court summonses to examine their means, given the stigma involved. With debtors not present to account for their circumstances, unrealistic instalment orders are often made. When these in turn result in default, creditors will often initiate committal proceedings. By this stage debtors are often in denial and do not appear to explain the fact of non-payment in open court. An order for arrest and imprisonment often follows. It is conservatively estimated that more than 200 people are imprisoned on an annual basis for non-payment of an instalment order. In our view, this is an unacceptable sanction in a European state at the beginning of the 21st century.

Enforcement in consumer debt cases should not be in open court. There is no legal question to be dealt with at this point, only the question of how repayments are to be made. The option of setting up an alternative forum to deal with enforcement based on current ability to pay must be pursued. In cases of persistent default, attachment of earnings should be examined as an option but only as a last resort and with substantial safeguards for debtors.

An increasing number of clients presenting to MABS are in a position of chronic debt in that there is no prospect in the short to medium term of the debts being repaid. A more radical solution is needed in this type of situation. The majority of member states of the European Union have faced this problem by introducing debt settlement or debt rescheduling legislation. In brief, debt settlement involves debtors repaying a portion of unsecured debt over an agreed repayment period, often three to five years and sometimes longer, with the prospect of a write-off of the remainder of unsecured debt at the conclusion of that period — the so-called principle of a fresh start. Debt settlement acknowledges the reality that chronic indebtedness occurs in a small minority of cases. It steers a middle course between the right of creditors to recover unpaid debt and the right of debtors and their dependants to have a second chance and regain control of their finances. Debt settlement is not an easy ride for debtors. It involves sacrifices on all parts. A voluntary debt settlement pilot scheme negotiated between MABS, FLAC and the Irish Bankers' Federation is currently in operation with some success. However, this is no substitute for legislation.

Despite promises of legislation dating back to 1998, there is still no system in place in Ireland for paying fines by instalment. While helpful developments have taken place recently, such as taking into account a person's means when imposing a fine, these are totally undermined by the absence of an instalment system. It does not take a genius to realise that the likelihood of default is great when a lack of means may often have been one of the reasons for the minor offence in the first place, for example, failure to pay a TV licence fee. In 1996, more than 1,600 people went to prison for failure to pay a fine. The effects of this on dependants and dependent children in particular are obvious. In addition, the resources of the State expended in this process are enormous. The ultimate irony is that the term of imprisonment served purges the fine.

This is but a cross section of the kind of difficulties that MABS clients and those in debt and poverty in general face when they encounter the civil side of the legal system. What we are proposing is a more ordered, considered and humane response to indebtedness. It is now a fact of life in modern Ireland and this is unlikely to change.

I welcome Mr. Joyce and his team whom I am pleased to see before the committee. I am pleased with their report. I wrote to the Ombudsman approximately three years ago and I have raised here on many occasions the issue of people who get into difficulty. I want to put it on the record that it is the poor who go to jail in this country, not the rich. When I see a millionaire who does not pay the television licence go to jail, I will see equality in the country.

The Judiciary should sometimes be more lenient. In this regard, there is one issue which upsets, annoys and aggravates me. For example, when a poor person gets into difficulty and is brought before the courts for payment of a small amount of money, they have no resources, no legal aid and no representative in court. On the same day, there are legal advisers representing the aggrieved party and three or four officials being paid expenses to travel to the court. I wonder whether judges who award a judgment against these people have any conscience. It is time legislation was introduced to deal with this issue. There is no justice for the poor, just for the rich. There are two laws in this country. If someone who gets into difficulty with a local authority is not represented by the Legal Aid Board or does not have other representation, the judge should not allow the case to proceed. Too many judgments are made in the absence of people. Some people who cannot pay their local authority cannot appear before the courts because they do not have the resources to employ a legal adviser. I have seen old people of 60, 70 and 80 years being brought before the court. They did not even know a judgment had been taken against their property until the papers were served by the aggrieved party. That is not acceptable and must be changed immediately.

The Money Advice and Budgeting Service is a wonderful organisation. I never thought I would say this but I must. I try to get the community welfare officer to get MABS involved with as many people as possible who get into difficulty. In view of the Minister's recent 16 savage cutbacks, in my own health board area people can no longer receive assistance from the health board if they get into financial difficulty. This defeats the purpose of the welfare system. These are people who are on low incomes and who need to be helped. I have found that anyone who goes through the MABS system and gets out of trouble does not get into trouble again. This is because they have learned how to control their money and how to pay their way. They have been educated by MABS. I compliment MABS. The Minister's cutback in the MABS budget was a big mistake because it means health boards can no longer help people who are in difficulty.

No one should be sent to jail for small debts. The 1,600 people who went to jail last year were poor people. We have seen the extent of white collar crime and Ansbacher and other off-shore accounts. When I see the people who have been guilty of such crimes going to jail I will know we have equality in law and order. When a person in receipt of social welfare comes before a court for non-payment of debts the judge should send him or her to MABS before taking a sanction against him or her.

I agree with what has been said with regard to attachments. Sometimes overpayments are the result of a mistake by the Department of Social and Family Affairs and these are often pointed out by people who are in receipt of payments. It is often two years later, when the problem is discovered, that the Department makes an assessment of the amount owed. The Department usually puts an attachment to the payment and recovers the amount owed in instalments of €5 or €10, or whatever the person can afford to pay. The same system should be used for other fines.

Would it be possible for the free legal aid system to represent people who are being thrown out of their homes and have no representation?

Mr. Joyce

There is some confusion. I represent the free legal advice centres, being a voluntary group. We are a community and voluntary organisation with legal advice centres in Dublin and throughout the country. The State civil legal aid service is the Legal Aid Board. It has law centres throughout the country. It is no secret that the civil legal aid service has suffered funding cutbacks in recent times.

Legal aid is a merit tested as well as a means tested service, except in family law cases. Broadly speaking, there is very little representation by Legal Aid Board law centres of clients in debt cases. This is because the money is owed and there is not sufficient legal merit to such cases. In many local authority areas rent arrears cannot be paid by instalment. I agree with Deputy Ring that a person should not come before a court without legal representation when his or her liberty may be at stake. That has to do with the poverty of the civil legal aid system.

I welcome Mr. Joyce, Mr. Yourell and Mr. Culloty and I apologise for being late. I read their document on the train on the way here today and I was impressed with it. This is only one dimension of a wider issue. Attitudes in Ireland have changed considerably in recent years. We now have a credit culture and it is being encouraged by financial and banking institutions and by the car industry. Money is available for everyone. People and institutions who provide credit have a responsibility to deal with this issue. There is a new poor in Ireland who live in private housing estates and have difficulty making repayments. People can fall into this situation. I have no difficulty in agreeing that we should encourage a more humane response to indebtedness when it results from illness or other difficulties. We all know people who do not have means but can open their wallets to reveal several credit cards and store cards. Money is made available and they do not have to pay. It is easy to purchase with a credit card and difficulty arises only when repayments must be made. It is then that stress and sickness become a factor, often leading to the breakdown of a marriage or a relationship. The financial institutions have a role to play in pulling us back from the edge of this abyss.

I do not agree with everything said in the presentation. I know people who are active in the credit unions which provide loans. We all know people who have borrowed and have the means to make repayments but who will never do so. These people take a deliberate decision never to repay. I know of cases where credit unions have been pursuing debtors for years. That money is the property of the members of the credit union and it is the responsibility of the directors to recover it, so far as is possible. I have seen people who were in a position to make repayments but who made no effort to do so. It was only when they were threatened with an appearance in court that they made them.

I do not agree that the option of going to court should not be available. The situation should be looked at and a more humane approach taken but we should also differentiate between those who are in need and those who are abusing the system. The presentation gives an indication of how this could be done but the issue we must deal with is much wider. People who make decisions, in Government and in financial institutions, have a responsibility to ensure we do not develop a culture which leads people into indebtedness and poverty through no fault of their own.

Mr. Joyce

Mr. Culloty might like to respond to Deputy Ryan. Before he does so, may I make a few brief points? Deputy Ryan's remarks raise the debate on irresponsible lending and borrowing and the culture of consumer credit. It is true that there are people who bite off more than they can chew and are loath to repay, but we believe this is a very small minority. We also believe a more user friendly system that establishes ability to repay at an early stage will expose people in that situation. The majority of those suffering consumer debt do so through no particular fault of their own and often as a result of a change in circumstances.

We are not advocating the abolition of the courts system. We believe enforcement of judgments should be dealt with by an alternative forum. The legal finding that the debt is owed would remain. We believe such matters should be dealt with on the basis of the person's ability to repay, particularly where it is verifiable or apparent he or she does not have the means to do so.

Mr. Michael Culloty

It is salutary to remind ourselves that the Irish Bankers' Federation made such a proposal to the Department of Finance some time ago. We are not coming at this from a creditor or consumer perspective but from a perspective agreed by the banking institutions also. They are not happy with the current process. It has been the experience of MABS over the years that often clients have three, four or five creditors, but one creditor does not know the situation of the other and all of them go to court to obtain repayment from one pool of restricted cash. That can be time wasting and injurious to the debtor's health. It also can also be an expensive process for the creditors, time consuming for the courts and, if people are imprisoned, expensive for the taxpayer.

I welcome the delegation to the meeting. MABS plays an important role in a difficult area. I would not wish to have the job of some of its personnel on the frontline. They often have to deal with very critical situations.

I was involved earlier this week in assisting a person under threat of eviction. I had to prove the very point being made — that there is a lack of structures in place to deal with the aftermath of a court decision. I was horrified by the experience. I am not suggesting the person concerned was innocent but we must find better ways of handling such matters. When the person concerned got into difficulties, organisations such as the Department of Social and Family Affairs should have become involved. With the support of MABS, I was able to sort out things fairly quickly by making a few telephone calls. Without the support of MABS, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and others would not necessarily have come on board. I recognise the tremendous work being done by MABS.

Mention was made of the efforts of MABS in 1988 to obtain decisions on attachments and payment of fines by instalment. Last week, the Fine Gael Party introduced in the Dáil a Bill to deal with such matters. As in 1998, we were told the Bill was not useful, that it was rubbish and that the Government had plans to introduce alternatives. The sooner the Government introduces realistic proposals on debt collection and associated problems the better. Attachment of earnings should be permitted only as a last resort.

People who are unable to pay debt or fines should not be imprisoned. Some years ago a large company in the country got into financial difficulties. While that matter did not receive a great deal of publicity, the media printed a great deal in the local paper about a person in receipt of social welfare benefit being taken to court and fined for not having a television licence. That should not happen. We must find alternative ways to deal with such issues.

Up to last February, a person unable to remain in his or her house because he or she could not pay the rent had the option of obtaining a flat and receiving community welfare support. That option is no longer available and this creates further difficulties. While rent allowances are available for those in private rented property, even if one is only entitled to it after six months, there is no support for the significant number of people unable to pay county council rents. Rents on county council houses have increased significantly in the past few years. It is now a sizeable proportion of a person's social welfare income.

I congratulate MABS on the work it does on a legal and customer level. I am glad the structure is available to us. Perhaps the delegation will comment on the issue of rent allowances.

Mr. Joyce

People living in poverty require State subsidisation in terms of rents and other supplementary welfare allowance payments. There is a belief that a buoyant economy has lifted up everyone. However, that is not the case. Without entering other spheres, there is money in the social welfare system to maintain that baseline. Attempts to cutback in that regard at a time of relative economic prosperity appear to be misguided.

Mr. Culloty

We in MABS sometimes believe we are helping people to manage their poverty but often those who come to us are the best budgeters in Ireland.

I wish to be associated with the warm welcome extended to the delegation. I listened to Deputy Ryan's comments regarding studying on the train. Perhaps I will be able to do my studying on the Luas from Tallaght. I do not disagree with what Deputy Ryan had to say.

I compliment the Chairman on arranging this meeting. It is good for us, as local representatives and as legislators, to have the opportunity to listen to the concerns of those on the ground. I am aware of the good work being done by both agencies as the Legal Aid Board operates in my constituency of Tallaght in Dublin South-West and MABS has a particularly successful office in the main street there.

I would like to raise a number of points on matters raised by my colleagues. We are clearly living in a strong consumer pressure environment. I do not have a credit card and continually resist the temptation and pressure from my children to get one. Given that we are supposedly living in a time when employment is so well paid, not a day goes by that one does not receive correspondence from one's local banks and so on offering loans. I have even been offered a credit card from Manchester United. I do not wish to be flippant but there is enormous pressure on people in terms of credit. It is easy to run up debt and we must try to understand that. At a time when the economy is booming — I do not wish to make a political point — people have more money and are often under more pressure. In that regard, this presentation is particularly relevant.

Imprisonment as a deterrent is an important and emotive issue. I agree we must have a deterrent to avoid chaos. While I am a Fianna Fáil backbencher, I will be brave and say there must be a better system than locking up people for small debts. We all have strong views on law and order and prison and what legislation should achieve. I know many stories from my constituency of people, for example elderly women, taken away from their families and locked up in Mountjoy. I sometimes feel sorry for the Garda because they have to implement the law and do that.

It is right to have a debate but we must realise that the system cannot be allowed run amok. The banks, financial institutions and soccer clubs have a responsibility that I am not sure they are honouring in this regard. It appears to be easy to get credit, but these institutions turn nasty when people run into difficulty with their repayments. People run into difficulties for all sorts of reasons, for example family pressures, illness, etc., and it is important that we remember that.

While I do not want to make a political point, our Fine Gael colleagues are obviously too young to remember when they were in Government. It is easy to point at what the Government is doing, certainly through Private Members' time. I support Private Members' time, always take an interest in it and will be present for it tonight with other colleagues. Important issues are raised on Private Members' time, but in the end legislation comes from many different angles. We are not afraid to say the work of the joint Oireachtas committees is very important in that regard. We pick up ideas at such presentations and it is important to have different groups here. I compliment today's group on its presentation. This committee will bring forward ideas we pick up and, hopefully, they will become part of legislation.

Today's business is important. At a time when Ireland is probably more wealthy than ever, we still have problems. We all represent constituencies where we can point to poverty issues. I have a strong commitment to social inclusion and dealing with poverty at constituency level. Along with other colleagues I attended the launch of the Combat Poverty Agency annual report last week. At the time we did not know, and were not told, that the former Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Coughlan, would no longer be with us in that portfolio. I take this opportunity to wish her well. She has been courteous to this committee. I also wish our visitors well. I hope we can take some ideas forward from their presentation.

I welcome Mr. Joyce and the representatives from MABS, which had a small beginning many years ago when the late pioneer Brendan Roche was appointed by Deputy Michael Woods to head it up. We have come a long way with 50 locations now around the country. It is important that we acknowledge the excellent work going on in the community. Much of it is unseen and unheard but it has a major influence.

Mr. Joyce's presentation is timely. It gives us an opportunity to have some input prior to the legislation, which is long overdue. The issues of fines and unpaid television licences were mentioned. It is disheartening to learn of people unable to pay fines. We must try to find a balance because the present system militates against the more vulnerable in our community.

There are other aspects to this. Some people, for ideological or other reasons, will not pay fines and for that reason Deputy Ryan is quite right that we must have a deterrent. The balance is wrong at present and we must address it. MABS has said it has 25,000 people on its books and had an increase of 12,000 in 2003. This increase seems dramatic. Was there a particular reason for it?

I do not want to be repetitive. This document is important and well presented. We take our message from it. I pay tribute to the work MABS is doing in the community.

Mr. Culloty

It is not a hugely dramatic increase. The numbers have been growing over the years and are almost commensurate with the growth in the availability of credit. Early in the life of MABS, most of the work dealt with utility companies, local government and credit unions. However, more and more we meet middle class indebtedness and this is becoming an increasing part of our work.

The area of over-borrowing is scary. When I was growing up my parents had the attitude that if one did not have the money in hand, one did without. No matter if we were begging for a pair of shoes or dress from the shop, if the money was not there we did without them.

I wonder whether this is a generation issue because it is not just one type of person who borrows. Borrowers are found right across the board. I notice that my third level children regularly get letters from the banks offering loans. They come and tell me they are going to borrow €200 and I tell them they will do it over my dead body and ask how they will repay it. They say they might get a part-time job but I tell them there is no way they will borrow the money. At least they come home and tell me what they are thinking. However, what about those young people who do not come home to tell and who go and borrow money? It is the like of us who pay that back. We pick up the tab. I agree with others that the onus is on lenders to take responsibility and we must drive home that.

Does MABS see results in its 50 offices or is it the same poor unfortunates, whether white, blue, pink or whatever colour collar workers, who come back again and again? Do they get their act together quickly and take the straight and narrow and curb their borrowing? It appears that borrowing is almost like a drug and people become addicted to it. We all want the nice things, but we must educate people to know they cannot have everything. Is borrowing a generation issue? Does MABS see results or is it the same people coming for help time and again?

Mr. Donal Yourell

To deal with the Senator's initial comments, there is a huge culture change in the country. I am old enough to remember a time when people paid for something or did without it or when even if people sought a loan from the bank, they would not get it. Nowadays it is culturally acceptable to have a credit card and borrow. Nobody questions this. There is no difficulty in getting money and that is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future.

We are not seeing the same people all the time. Our philosophy is grounded on the principle that as far as we can we want to help people help themselves and take back control of their lives. The first thing we ask people to do when they come to us is to sign an agreement that they will not borrow any more money as long as they are participating in the service and working with us. That does not suggest that we tell them they can never borrow again. What we are saying is that we must agree there will be no more borrowing as a basis for the work we will do together. We then help them in the area of budgeting and planning in order that they can bring as much order as possible back into their lives.

The next step entails offering their creditors pro rata payments based on available means, having allowed for the necessaries of family living such as paying the mortgage, clothing and food. We work out this with them and they work with us to establish what is available. Each month we make the payments for them. In my experience, 90% of the people who sign up to that type of approach, succeed, and we do not see them again, which is a sign of success from our point of view.

I wish to hear the delegation's opinion on this example. A person came to my clinic yesterday. He is in difficulty with finances. Some people came to his door — they may have been acting legally — and he borrowed €300 from them. He is required to pay back €420 or €430 over five or six months. Does the delegation think that is right? The people who borrow the money will find themselves in court if they do not repay it. In the opinion of the delegation, should the lending institutions be governed by legislation, so that when they lend money to people who cannot afford to repay it, those people should not have to pay the price?

Mr. Yourell

I agree with the Deputy. Whether it is a lending institution or an individual, if through their own knowledge they are behaving irresponsibly they will have to live with the consequences of their irresponsibility. If an institution is irresponsible, there is no reason it should not suffer the same odium as an individual who is irresponsible.

That is correct. The institutions are getting away with murder. A car culture and a borrowing culture exists now. The financial institutions advertise every night on television in beautiful advertisements. There are telephone numbers advertised in the newspapers and one need just telephone the number and the money will be given out. The institutions do not even know who the borrowers are and whether they have the resources to repay it. The institutions should pay a penalty and should be prosecuted on the basis they are giving money to people who cannot afford to repay it. That is wrong. There should be legislation to deal with both the institutions and the people who cannot pay.

In this country there is one law for the poor and another for the rich; one law for the financial institutions and another for the people who cannot pay back. The financial institutions will always be protected because they have the legislation, the power and the wealth to fight the case in the courts whereas the poor person in difficulty cannot do so. The consumer should be protected in legislation by making it difficult to borrow money.

Mr. Culloty

As well as irresponsible borrowing there is also, in our experience, irresponsible lending. I hope IFSRA, the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority, will begin to tackle that. In answer to other issues raised, it must be borne in mind that well over 60% of the client base of MABS consists of people on social welfare or on low income. These are people who find the whole legal process totally foreign to them. They do not understand it; they do not have the money to get advice in order to approach it and they very often ignore it. In our view, if there is a downturn in the economy and many more people get into difficulties with credit, then the legal process that currently exists will create great problems. From a poverty as well as from a creditor point of view, all the stakeholders are asking for a change at this juncture.

I compliment Mr. Joyce on his presentation and I compliment MABS on its great work. I agree with the idea of instalments as being the best way. The delegation mentioned that many people have borrowings from three or four different sources. Is there a system of communication between the institutions to inform whether a borrower is up to his neck in borrowings? What percentage of MABS clients have mortgages? Are banks less worried because they know they can sell the house in a year's time? That seems to be their attitude now. At one time they were interested in a client's ability to pay but now they know the house will appreciate in value in a few years.

Mr. Culloty

All creditors are prepared to lend where security exists because they have the security of property or whatever. On the question of the interlinking of information within the banking industry, there is some linkage but it is inadequate. We in MABS would be looking for a more comprehensive credit registry where all loans are registered so that one credit institution knows what the other credit institution has lent. In saying that, we would also wish to protect the ability of poor people to have credit available to them.

Mr. Joyce

It is a case of striking a delicate balance between a right of access to credit, which many people require to buy goods and services in this society, and a situation of over-extending. A consumer credit directive gave rise to the Consumer Credit Act 1995. This directive is being revised in the European process. One of the proposals made by the Commission to the Council is that an obligatory credit register be put in place in each member state throughout the EU where any given creditor would be obliged to consult the register to check a credit rating before extending credit. Interestingly, the European Parliament proposed a large number of amendments to the Commission's proposals and that is in train at present.

The Irish Credit Bureau is subscribed to by many of the main financial institutions and it carries out credit checks. For example, credit unions, do not subscribe to the register and neither do moneylenders nor utilities. A comprehensive overall credit register carrying out checks does not exist. It would be helpful to have obligatory checks, having regard to data protection rights and a right of access to credit. If it was clear that an institution had made a loan in circumstances where it was obvious that the particular borrower was already considerably over-extended, that loan potentially could be written off as an irresponsible loan and one that should not have been made.

I compliment the delegation on its presentation and I agree with the sentiments expressed. It was stated that when MABS was set up initially, debts were usually owed to utilities such as ESB and gas, but that has changed with time. Has a survey been undertaken to ascertain the main type of debt now being incurred by clients of MABS? Is addiction, such as addiction to drugs, alcohol or gambling, a significant cause of debt? Many of those accessing the services of MABS do so because of poverty. Wonderful people can find themselves in debt and are managing on very small incomes and social welfare payments. Do more people turn to MABS at times such as back to school? I am from an urban, working-class area and people come to me.

Mr. Culloty

There has been an explosion in consumer credit. It is part of the economy and so it is more than likely here to stay. We have seen a huge increase particularly in middle class clients, who are in debt to credit cards and store cards. That would be the huge growth we have seen in the past few years.

One of the members talked about the times of the year when people come to us. Those on low income and social welfare are usually living at a level that just barely sustains them. If something goes wrong in their lives they do not have a savings cushion. Sometimes the social welfare system does not allow them to have a savings cushion in that if they have some savings put away they may be penalised in what they can get.

Some people talk about Boston and Berlin. A concept has come from the United States and exists in parts of the UK and Europe called asset welfare. The idea is to get people out of poverty by providing them with an asset so they have a stake hold. In the UK it is based around the child trust fund and the savings gateway. MABS made a proposal when the savings incentive scheme was launched. Members will recall it had a big uptake among middle-class people — I took advantage of it myself. For poor people the entry requirements were inappropriate. So poor people could not take advantage of the scheme.

For those on social welfare, when something goes wrong in their lives they do not have this cushion and get into difficulty. They begin to borrow from Peter to pay Paul. They do this a few times and only when things get serious do they contact MABS. A considerable amount of pride and personal status is tied up in one's ability to handle money. People can be slow and at times their pride does not allow them to come forward at an early stage. Of course we meet people after a child's first communion. They might have had to borrow from a moneylender or credit union and find their incomes do not allow them to build that portion of repayments into their normal outgoings. This is why it is hugely important to consider the holistic scenario, of which the legal portion is important.

I welcome members of the delegation and thank them for their presentation. I am surprised at the number of people who do not know about MABS, given it has existed since 1992. The Government should consider a series of advertisements, ideally through television which everybody seems to watch regardless of their background. Mr. Culloty asked where the financial institutions would go in the event of a downturn in the economy. I would like to issue them a warning. It will not be like the 1980s when they waved a big stick at people. This generation will not be dictated to like that and will revolt. They will not allow what happened then.

Do many people come to MABS who suffer from addictions that cause the debt?

Mr. Culloty

Yes they do. Addiction is a cause and a consequence of indebtedness.

In answer to the question about creditors, if the economy falters and indebtedness increases, the creditors are in favour of this type of change in the legislation and they made a proposal to the Department of Finance in 1998 regarding this. They are on board at this time. We need some movement from a legislative point of view.

The role of MABS is important. In the past week alone I referred three people from Mullingar to the service. Is MABS inhibited by not existing on a statutory basis? The Government had accepted the principle of introducing a Bill to establish MABS as a statutory authority. Given the key role of MABS in dealing with so many people at the coalface, is it not time to do this? Local input is vital given the dealings on a one to one level. This should be retained and facilitated by the management of the board to be established in any such legislation.

Mr. Joyce referred to MABS being somewhat hamstrung by the lack of debt settlement legislation. It would be a good day's work for this committee to recommend the introduction of legislation to address those two matters. I say this on the basis of what I have heard from the delegation. As this is an all-party committee we may be in a position to do that. What is the view of MABS on this matter?

People dealing with both MABS and FLAC do so in great privacy and give information they would be unlikely to give to people like us. Those organisations have a great rapport with people and do outstanding work. The levels of consumer and personal debt seem to be growing as the economy grows resulting in an increase in the numbers of people who find themselves in difficulty. Mr. Culloty mentioned a figure of 12,000. Two or three years later people could find themselves at a very difficult stage.

I spoke to a person who received in the post a civil bill for €20,000. While I happen to know about such matters in my other role, this person did not have a clue and asked me what a civil bill was and what should be done. I could give some advice. We all know that many bills end up being dusted into the fire. What is a person with income of €180 and outgoings of €230 who receives a bill demanding €6,000 or €8,000 to do? It is not possible to cope in such cases. This has a traumatic impact at a psychological level. I am sure other impacts exist which we have not tried to measure today. If we asked I am sure the witnesses could give us a view on that matter also.

Would Mr. Culloty like to see MABS established on a statutory basis while ensuring retention of the local management structures? It is important that it be accountable as between €11 million and €12 million is involved. It is important that a budget be allocated for the excellent work of the organisation. How important is it to have debt settlement legislation? Should both Bills be introduced together?

Mr. Culloty

A few years ago, it was seen that MABS needed to be established on a statutory basis and I am sure this is still correct. When legislation to change the courts' mechanisms to deal with indebtedness is introduced, it might be useful to introduce both Bills together as areas of common interest may exist.

Mr. Joyce

As I do not work for the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, I can comment independently. I believe the Money Advice and Budgeting Service is doing great work and is here to stay. There is no question of consumer debt decreasing. I believe it will increase. If anything, the role of MABS needs to be enhanced, involving, for example, the initiation of a legislative programme that complements its work. Part of the problem is that it is funded by the Department of Social and Family Affairs, but the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform which is responsible for the administration of justice does not appear to be interested in reforming the legal system in this regard. That does not really make sense to the Free Legal Advice Centres.

Debt settlement legislation is the extreme end of the scale. It is not the case that everybody is hopelessly over-indebted — it is a question of degree. It is the norm throughout Europe. Those who have been eloquently described as simply not having the means should have immediate access to advice and assistance. A practical and affordable repayment schedule should be put in place.

It sounds like a call for joined-up government.

Mr. Joyce

Absolutely.

For the first time, almost every member of the committee has raised issues with a visiting delegation for which I thank my colleagues. It is an eloquent testimony to the importance of the subject we have discussed today. I thank Mr. Donal Yourell and the representatives of MABS for indicating they are prepared to deal with this issue. Many members of the committee had indicated their willingness to meet the delegations to discuss the matter.

I thank our guests for their presence at this meeting and their co-operation which we deeply appreciate. It has been a valuable meeting, featuring a frank exchange of views between members and guests. The committee has learned a great deal. One of the lessons we have learned is that we have to act to solve this problem which is likely to be evident for a long time. The committee will meet to make recommendations to the appropriate Ministers as action is required.

As Mr. Joyce said, there is no doubt there will be a need for MABS in the foreseeable future. We are lucky that such a service is in place because our jails would be packed without its interventions. Mr. Joyce has said the Free Legal Advice Centres have 25,000 clients, a few hundred of whom should not be using them. Without the help of the centres, the problem of revolving doors would creep back onto the agenda. We must set about the huge task we face. Today's exchange with those at the coalface has been extremely important because it will inform our debate and the contributions and recommendations we will make.

I thank the members of the delegation, some of whom we may contact in the near future as we make progress. The committee is keen to ensure both Departments work in unison to ensure this vital issue which relates to people's personal finances and their long-term health and well-being and that of their families is tackled in a cohesive manner. I sincerely thank once more Mr. Paul Joyce, Mr. Donal Yourell and Mr. Michael Culloty.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.45 p.m. and adjourned at 3.50 p.m. sine die.

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