JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 2 Nov 2005

National Women's Council of Ireland: Presentation.

Chairman

On behalf of the joint committee, I welcome Dr. Joanna McMinn, director, Ms Orla O'Connor, head of policy, and Ms Claire Dunne, policy outreach facilitator, who are here to make a presentation on behalf of the National Women's Council of Ireland. I thank them for their understanding in facilitating the rescheduling of this meeting from yesterday afternoon to today.

Before the presentation commences I advise members of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses, or of an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members who wish to make a declaration on any matter being discussed may do so now or at the beginning of their contribution. Members are also reminded that if there is a possibility of there being a conflict of interests, they should make a declaration of interests either now or at the start of their contribution. I also draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. While it is generally accepted that witnesses would have qualified privilege, the committee is not in a position to guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it.

I invite Ms O'Connor to make her presentation on behalf of the National Women's Council of Ireland to which we will listen attentively. The presentation will be followed by a question and answer session.

Ms Orla O’Connor

The National Women's Council of Ireland is grateful for the opportunity to meet with the committee to discuss the critical issue of reform of the social welfare system and of child care, as we detailed in our pre-budget submission. Over many years the council has worked in collaboration with over 160 women's organisations nationwide to address various issues such as access to and the cost of child care, the need to recognise unpaid care work, problems in regard to poverty for older women, barriers to employment and the need to recognise women's work in family businesses.

Our reports, A Women's Model for Social Welfare Reform and An Accessible Childcare Model, examine the social welfare system and child care in Ireland and recommend structural changes to address our concerns. Both of the models proposed are grounded in the experience of our membership and if implemented together will address the structural barriers to women's equality.

The council hopes its attendance at this meeting will help it to play a part in encouraging the joint committee to adopt a long-term strategy which will lead to effective high quality child care that is accessible to all parents. It is necessary to recognise parenting in the social welfare system. A system of parental support payments should be introduced to allow parents to make real choices about care in the home and working in the paid labour force. The council encourages the joint committee to examine the financial dependency of women on men which is reinforced through the outdated social welfare system.

As the members of the joint committee are aware, the reform of the social welfare system and child care are not issues which lend themselves to quick-fix solutions, unfortunately. It is probable we would not choose to start from the existing low base. The level of support given to those who care for children has been minimal. It has predominantly been the case that women have had to stay at home to care for their children, or have had to juggle a career with a variety of child care arrangements. The social welfare system which was established in 1910 continues to be based on the male breadwinner model which is not appropriate to the Irish society of today.

I would like to outline the issues being prioritised by the council in advance of the forthcoming budget. The council is focusing on the modernisation of the social welfare system, the enablement of participation in employment, the recognition of parenting within the social welfare system and the development of a publicly funded child care infrastructure. While women comprise the majority of social welfare claimants, it is often the case that they do not have direct access to their benefits. The qualified adult payment, approximately 70% of the full adult allowance, is paid to the primary claimant. The welfare of women is primarily linked to this payment, due to the fact that women account for 95% of all qualified adults.

The reform of the qualified adult rate for pensions is particularly critical for women over the age of 65 years, some 41% of whom are below the 60% poverty line. When the qualified adult payment is made to a woman's husband, her economic independence is limited. If the relationship is troubled or violent, the woman's dependence on her husband can prevent her from choosing to leave. The State does not recognise such women as individuals in their own right, but instead considers that they exist only through their husbands. Many women who left work to assume caring responsibilities in the home when the marriage bar was in place are now qualified adults. They are facing old age with little access to State pensions.

Persons who spend time caring for their young children, or disabled and elderly relatives, do not earn pension credits because it is not recognised as paid work. The home-maker's scheme has helped to acknowledge care work, to some extent. It helps those who choose to work at home to qualify for an old age contributory pension. However, the income disregards under the scheme do not give any value for short-term payments and offer a lower level of contribution than would be the case if credits were awarded. The council is recommending that qualified adult payments be made at 100% of the full adult rate. The payments should be issued directly to the qualified adult. The council believes the home-makers' disregards should become home-makers' credits and that the credits should be made retrospective for all those engaged in unpaid care work from 1973.

I would like to speak about the need to enable employment in the social welfare system. The spouses of business owners who are working in family businesses are treated as "relatives assisting". Although they are working, the "relatives assisting" who are mainly women cannot make PRSI contributions which would entitle them to a pension and maternity benefits. The limitation rule which reduces by 15% the total amount of benefits received in a household where two adults are claiming social assistance is based on the assumption that two people can live more cheaply than one — that they can save up to 15% of costs between them. Recent research has highlighted the fact that economies of scale differ from household to household. There are practical difficulties in determining the extent to which there are such economies. It is not certain that there are such economies in some cases. In reality, the limitation rule stops women from accessing welfare payments in their own right. The two-year rule states a person with no social insurance record for more than two years must have 26 paid contributions before credits can be awarded. This prevents women who cared for their children in the home and who wish to access and return to employment now that their children have grown up from doing so. The council is recommending the introduction of specific reforms in respect of "relatives assisting", the abolition of the limitation rule and the reform of the two-year rule by providing for a re-entry credit for women who wish to return to the labour market.

I would like to speak about the need to make parenting a contingency within the social welfare system. If parents are to have real choice in the care of their children, the social welfare system and paid employment need to accommodate parenting. If the State can provide for paid parental leave, it will enable employees on lower incomes to avail of such leave and support parents in their dual role as employees and parents. A means-tested parental allowance would help low-income families to care for their children, regardless of the parents' marital status. It would make parenting a contingency within the system and offer low-income parents a continuum of support, through caring for children to paid employment and back again, depending on their circumstances. This would offer parents the flexibility to move in and out of the labour force. It would give them an opportunity to avail of training and labour market activation programmes, or to be in part-time or full-time employment as the children get older. The council recommends the provision of a full-time means-tested parental allowance for the parents of children under the age of five years. A part-time means-tested parental allowance should be offered to the parents of children aged between five and 14 years. The Government should introduce paid parental leave for the parents of children under the age of five years and part-time paid parental leave for the parents of children aged between five and 14 years. Such recommendations would offer parents the flexibility they need.

The council favours the development of publicly funded child care infrastructure. The case for such a child care model which can be made from a children's and women's rights perspective is based on strong international evidence outlined in a report recently launched by the council. The council advocates this model because it would increase and promote women's economic independence by leading to a greater sharing of care responsibilities between women and men. It would allow women, particularly those who depend on low incomes, to choose how and when they wish to participate in employment, education and training.

When the OECD reviewed child care costs in Ireland in 2004, it found that such costs were unsustainable because they accounted for a high proportion of parents' incomes. Ireland has the second highest rate of relative child poverty of 20 EU countries. Some 23% of Irish women are at risk of poverty, a figure that increases to 42.3% for lone parents. Such levels of poverty are linked to the child care options available to parents. The high cost of child care has negative implications for equality among children. It is often the case that children from the most vulnerable households who have been proven to benefit from early intervention are excluded from child care options. It is time for Ireland to put children's development and education at the heart of society by creating a sustainable, affordable and high quality child care infrastructure.

The council recommends that paid parental leave, currently available during the first 18 weeks of a child's life, be extended to cover 26 weeks. It advocates the introduction of a period of five days paternity leave. In the long term it recommends that parents be allowed to avail of 26 weeks paid parental leave. It proposes that this subsidised model of child care should be implemented over ten years and based on a mixed delivery of provision. The subsidy would be paid directly to the provider, as long as he or she met a series of quality standards. The council's preferred model of subsidised child care involves the introduction of universal early childhood care and education for all three and four year olds and the extension of other forms of care such as out-of-school care for three and four year olds and subsidised care for one and two year olds. The council would like the Government to establish a universal pre-school year and a subsidised extended care programme in the context of the forthcoming budget. The clear benefits of the subsidised model are listed in the documentation the council has supplied to the committee.

Like many non-governmental organisations involved in women's and children's rights, the council welcomes the fact that child care issues are now a priority on the political agenda. The council believes the key issue is ensuring the appropriate decisions are taken leading to a long-term sustainable solution for all children and their parents. Since the council published A Woman's Model for Social Welfare Reform, it has worked with groups from all parts of the country as part of a campaign to change the system. Over 12,000 individuals signed and sent letters to the Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, last May as part of an attempt to highlight this issue and encourage him to implement the necessary changes in the forthcoming budget.

If the Government adopts the council's proposed social welfare and child care models, it will be able to address the issues of poverty, balancing paid and care work and recognising care work, in order that women's financial security and economic independence in their old age can be secured. It can show that society values care work and parenting by placing them at the heart of society. The National Women's Council strongly advocates that the Government takes a holistic and long-term view of the issues and provides sufficient investment. It must introduce these models simultaneously in order that all parents can have access to real choices in respect of care and paid employment.

Senator Terry

I welcome the National Women's Council representatives to the joint committee. I support all the council suggests. Ireland would certainly be a better country for women if we could implement its proposals as early as possible. Despite the Celtic tiger, many women have been left behind. These individuals feel alienated and we have not improved their lot. While many women have attained prominent positions in their work, this brings its own problems, one of which relates to child care.

I wish to focus on the issue of older women who have been out of the workforce, initially through the marriage ban but then because of the 1970s or 1980s attitude which encouraged them to choose to stay at home. These women now aged 60 and over are discriminated against. I fully support the proposal that they should be able to get a pension in their own right at the full 100% rate. Has the council any figures on the number of women involved? Does it know how many are retired and in receipt of the qualified dependant allowance? How many women who have stayed out of the workforce have remained carers, first for children and then, perhaps, for a sick relative or elderly parents? That group of people is being left behind. The council's proposals would benefit them but it is important to know how many women are in that situation.

Reference was made to the homemaker's scheme recently established by the Government. This scheme provides that, commencing with the year 1994, women who remain at home for 20 years will not lose out but will obtain credit for those years. It needs to go back further to the 1970s and include women carers. It must be recognised that they are responsible for our successful economy and the good young people working today.

The council has suggested that the subsidy for child care should be given to child care providers. Many experts would say that this would drive up the cost of child care. Costs have risen in other sectors, particularly the construction area, where grants were given. For example, the first-time buyer's grant and similar housing grants merely drove up the price of housing rather than making it easier for individuals to buy a house. I am concerned that if we focus on giving grants to providers, this will result, after an initial period, in increased child care costs. How can we ensure that we make child care more affordable for individuals?

I believe something will be done, whether by this or a future Government, to resolve the child care issue, increase provision and make it more affordable. However, I am concerned that no income or low income women or families will be left behind. I refer here, for example, to small groups such as homeless people or those living in one-bedroom flats or units with children. The council's policy document should include a proposal that child care workers be provided in those units because those children miss out. By the provision of financial support for working parents or mothers who choose to stay at home, we could overlook a group of vulnerable children who will be left in the same cycle as their parents. We must ensure that they are included. They need greater financial supports than others who are better able to care for their needs.

Ms Claire Dunne

I have done a quick calculation on the figures. Approximately 60,000 qualified adults receive pensions of one form or another. If we presume that some 95% of those are women, we would have approximately 57,000 women on qualified adult pensions. If we take qualified adult payments as a whole, including all other payments, there are approximately 120,000 qualified adult recipients. Therefore, approximately 114,000 women receive qualified adult payments, including pensions. The number of carers is estimated at approximately 150,000. Six out of every ten carers are women. There are, therefore, approximately 90,000 women carers.

Senator Terry

Are the other 60,000 men?

Ms Dunne

Yes, four out of every ten are men.

Deputy S. Ryan

I welcome the group. I apologise for being late but I have got the gist of the presentation and have read the council's budget submission. The Labour Party would not disagree with the council's recommendations. I compliment it on what it has tried to achieve in the context of modernising the social welfare system and making it more relevant to the needs of women.

Will the group elaborate on the need for the qualified adult payment? I know from experience — some of which I gained as recently as last week — that certain people are reluctant to seek a qualified adult payment because of the treatment they might receive from their partners. I compliment the council on clarifying how important it is for these people to have pensions in their own right. The Labour Party and others have made detailed submissions on the issue of child care in recent weeks. Has the National Women's Council put a costing on its proposals? I understand the council is recommending that the period of paid maternity leave be increased to 26 weeks and that this is its interim objective which it feels might be attainable in the short term.

Chairman

I am glad all my colleagues are sticking to questions and getting as much information as they can from the delegation.

Ms O’Connor

We have costed every element of the child care proposal. We worked towards the target of 1% of GDP, which is what the OECD recommended. Our costings come in at approximately 1.1%, or approximately €1.7 billion, or €2 billion if fully implemented within the ten year period of our plan to 2015. Each element has been costed separately and is included in the document the committee has received. Regarding the increase in the period of paid maternity leave to 26 weeks, the council is recommending a year's leave over a ten year period made up of 26 weeks' maternity and 26 weeks' parental leave. What we recommend for budget 2006 is a period of 26 weeks.

Senator Terry asked about cost inflation in the context of child care costs. It is an issue, no matter what measures are taken. Child care costs have been suppressed in some ways because child care is predominantly provided by child minders. There is often, therefore, a very low level of cost in some areas and a very high level in cities. In other countries where there are good quality child care systems capping systems have been introduced. In Denmark, for example, subsidies are based on an annual review of child care costs. This approach is also being introduced in local authority areas within the United Kingdom. Subsidies for child care places are capped on the basis of an annual review of child care costs which shows the average cost. That is how we have worked out our model in order that some parents would have a 50% subsidy. For parents on lower incomes the figure goes up to 70%. The subsidy would be capped. That would be one of the ways of doing it.

Deputy S. Ryan

We all agree that there is a need for a good quality child care system but there is no such system in the public sector.

Ms O’Connor

It is not a question of whether we have quality. We have minimal standards; simply, the health regulations. The Department of Education and Science is in the process of developing quality standards. We absolutely support this because quality standards need to be developed for providers as well as parents and children. We are operating in a vacuum where there is no clear set of agreed quality standards. This needs to be provided. Subsidies could then be linked to them.

Deputy Callanan

I strongly support the concept of a payment being made to the qualified individual, given that relationships are sometimes troubled. Whether it is pushed up to 100% is a matter for debate. People who are self-employed or the wives of PAYE taxpayers who stay at home to mind children should be allowed to make a small PRSI contribution to qualify for a contributory pension. When the two are tied in, it would automatically become 100% when the person reaches pension age.

There is another area with which the council has not dealt and on which I would like to hear its views. A widow in receipt of a non-contributory pension will lose it if she goes out to work. I believe she should be allowed to earn a respectable amount and still receive a pension. A wife can be widowed at a very young age and tied at home with children for a year or two but may then be anxious to go out to work. She should not be discriminated against if she does so as it would improve their quality of life.

Ms O’Connor

The council would most definitely agree that spouses of self-employed persons working in family businesses should be able to make voluntary contributions. There is no provision whatsoever for them.

Our solution for parents caring for children in the home would be to provide credits for them in order that the State would make a contribution on their behalf. Their time in the home is disregarded in calculating their pension, instead of giving them a credit. Stay-at-home parents caring for young children are making a contribution to society. Therefore, in crediting that time at home the social welfare system would provide support throughout the person's time out of and in the labour force, depending on their circumstances, caring responsibilities and employment situation.

We would definitely agree that those in receipt of retirement pension should be allowed to work. A parental allowance might suit widows caring for young children. It would be means-tested but also linked with the ages of children. As children grow older, they would be linked with labour market activation programmes. That may be a solution for widows interested in returning to the labour market. They would receive a payment when their children are younger and allowed a part-payment when their children are aged from five to 14 years which would enable them to do part-time work.

Deputy Ring

I wish to raise three issues, the first of which is violence against women. In the past few years many voluntary groups have found themselves short of finance mid way through the year. The council recommends an increase in funding from €12 million to €19 million. I hope the Government supports this. It is important that there be protection for women who find themselves in such situations. It is terrible that groups dealing with this problem are looking for funding from the health boards, councils and the State and that funding is not available.

The Government gave a commitment many years ago to bring the qualified allowance up to 100%. The council should take a stronger position on this issue. There is an equality case to be made if somebody is in a situation where he or she is entitled only to 70% of what his or her spouse receives. That is wrong and the Government should deal with the matter immediately. We are always talking about equality. There has to be equality in the making of social welfare payments to either men or women, but it is mainly women who are affected.

I remember raising the issue of stay-at-home women on a Dublin radio station and when I returned to the Dáil, I received approximately 40 telephone calls within one hour because so many people, particularly women, felt left out. If we are talking about child care, we must take into account those women who stayed at home and made the sacrifices that saved the State a fortune only to find, at the end of their days, that they were means-tested on their husband's income. Every other practising politician and I see women in our constituency clinics who are upset because they do not understand the social welfare system. This is an issue on which the council should take a stronger position. Political parties talked about doing something for women but when they got into government, they did not do anything. This is a matter that should be dealt with. If a woman stays at home, she makes a major sacrifice and does more for the State than those who are out working. This should be recognised. I hope the delegation will not be afraid to fight for the women who wanted to stay at home to raise their children. We should not be afraid or ashamed to say this. The issue should be dealt with.

It has been stated people should be able to pay into the social welfare system if they are working for businesses. However, we should not forget farmers' wives. The IFA has raised this issue for many years. Many women who live on small farms are probably hard workers. However, when they reach pension age, they are means-tested on the basis of their husband's income. If a system was introduced for businesses, women who work on farms should also be included.

Sometimes the female representatives in the Dáil are not strong enough when it comes to highlighting women's views. They should be stronger and not afraid to speak on behalf of women. This country would be poor without women.

Chairman

I can see Deputy Ring getting a job. Ms O'Connor should watch out or he will soon be head of the National Women's Council of Ireland.

Ms O’Connor

Most of what the Deputy has said is correct. However, it is also important for male Deputies to be as strong on these issues as female Deputies.

Deputy Ring

Ms O'Connor should read the Dáil record because I have always spoken on behalf of women.

Ms O’Connor

Women and men must push these issues. As regards relatives assisting, that is the key aspect in terms of women working on farms. That was the main reason we made this recommendation because it is a strong issue for our members.

Ms Dunne

There are 40,000 farm spouses, the majority of whom are women, who do not have a pension. In many cases families were advised to make only one PRSI contribution because it was cheaper in the short term on the family business. People did not look at the long-term consequences. However, many spouses are now living in poverty. The family business or household may receive an income, but it may not be distributed. The women concerned are in vulnerable positions, particularly if relationships change. The Government should consider this.

An EU directive specifically focuses on business spouses. It states each country must provide for social security schemes for spouses of self-employed persons. It also states each self-employed spouse should be able to make voluntary contributions. However, that does not happen in Ireland for most of those spouses because they do not fulfil the criteria for making voluntary contributions. The Government has stated a partnership option would be the best route for farm families, in particular. However, the IFA has stated such an option would not work in practice as people would be concerned about property rights and succession entitlements. There would also be problems with joint herd numbers. The structure and culture of our society do not make it easy to form partnerships in family businesses, particularly farms.

Senator Terry

As regards the 40,000 farm spouses, is there a crossover between them and the 90,000 carers or are they in addition to that number?

Ms Dunne

I am not sure. Farm spouses could also care for young children. We do not have that information. We do not know what percentage of spouses are women, but we assume the majority of them are. They work 19 hours per week on family farms. However, this does not include other businesses such as bed and breakfast accommodation, or the work of spouses of professionals. There may be a crossover.

Deputy Finneran

I join members in welcoming the delegation from the National Women's Council of Ireland. I read its child care report and have studied its documents today.

Deputy Callanan raised an issue today which I have raised with the Minister for Social and Family Affairs and the Minister for Finance, namely, widows in receipt of a non-contributory pension. They are in the worst possible position as their case has not been properly addressed. Does the delegation have any proposals in that regard? How much of their pension should they be allowed to keep while they go to work? Does the delegation have definite figures?

Deputy Ring mentioned farmers' wives who have been totally forgotten in that they do not receive any benefits. A farmer's wife does not receive child benefit, although she gets children's allowance. She does not receive any support when her children are born. She does not have an opportunity to take out stamps for herself and she does not receive a pension unless she farms the land. The IFA must be complimented on raising this issue on many occasions. Farmers' wives have not received the support to which they are entitled, although they have contributed enormously to our society and the country during the years. The delegation stated there were 40,000 farm spouses. However, there could be an overlap with persons in other areas.

As regards home subvention, we have a nursing home subvention. I know it is not a social welfare issue, but a family issue. The tradition in farm homes is that the elderly person who farmed the land is cared for at home. A carer's allowance is granted if the income from the farm is sufficiently low. However, if it is not, the carer will not receive anything. One way to resolve this issue is to ensure an equal entitlement under the legislation to a home subvention. That would have a double benefit in that people who are entitled to pay as carers would be paid for the work they do and it would also allow people to be cared for in their own homes.

As regards the cost of child care and child care facilities, like other Deputies and Senators, I am involved in various projects in my constituency and often deal with national school and child care issues. I am perplexed that the cost of a child care facility can be up to double the cost of providing a primary school and I have evidence to support this. Are the county child care committees which endorse such proposals before they are forwarded to the Department realistic? Are such proposals overseen? I am glad to note some of them, seeking funding of up to €1 million or €1.5 million, were returned and more modest proposals requested. One could run a five teacher national school with 100 pupils for somewhat less.

Recent newspaper articles on child care indicated child care workers in Ireland were the highest paid in their profession in Europe. The variance in the figures provided suggests those working in child care are either poorly paid or overpaid. I am aware of child care costs in a small town in County Roscommon. The issue has been commented on in articles in The Irish Times and the Irish Independent. The delegation has also produced a good document on the matter.

Will the delegation comment on child care costs and tell the committee what input it has into county child care committees? Why do we need such committees? Why not integrate our community activities? Many community halls are used for all types of activities. Why is it necessary for child care facilities to be located in nearby fields? The community hall in a particular town which I visited recently is used for many purposes, including evening classes. It is also used as a funeral home. Community halls are community facilities and we should broaden our opinion on the purposes for which they may be used. Potentially they could be used as child care facilities. I would like to hear the delegation's views on this point. I appreciate this may not be the National Women's Council of Ireland's field but I am concerned about the costs involved in running two types of facilities.

Ms O’Connor

The Deputy has raised two issues. The huge variance in child care costs relates to the methods of delivery preferred. For example, one would pay a childminder less than one would pay a child care facility such as a crèche or nursery. However, there are many other issues connected to this. The Deputy made a comparison between such facilities and schools. I am not aware of the example of which he spoke but I imagine one of the reasons for the higher costs relates to ratios. The current ratio is one employee to two babies or one employee to three toddlers. The costs in that regard in comparison with those for primary schools would differ as a result of the ratios applied.

Deputy Finneran

I was asking about the cost of buildings before they are used for any purpose.

Ms O’Connor

I am not sure why capital costs are higher. They may be affected by regulations. The county child care committees were set up to examine the needs of particular areas and then devise plans in that regard. It appears to be a good model and is working better than, say, a national organisation. Based on examples from other countries, the nearer one can get to the provision of the service, the better it will be.

The Deputy also spoke about the variance in costs. It is important to note that in Ireland there has been practically no State intervention. The issue is not that the costs of child care are high, but rather that our subsidy levels are too low. We have learned from surveys that salaries in the area of child care are low. The National Children's Nurseries Association annual survey illustrates that many childminders are not paid the minimum wage. Salaries and child care costs in Ireland are not exorbitantly high in comparison to those in other countries.

Deputy Finneran

Ms O'Connor states there is no State involvement in this sector. The State meets 100% of the cost of community child care facilities and, in many cases, also pays a staffing grant.

Ms O’Connor

The State supports the sector through the equal opportunities childcare programme. However, it is not providing enough places and waiting lists for services remain high. The level of State support is a drop in the ocean in terms of what we actually need. We support the equal opportunities childcare programme in terms of it being a start, but it is not meeting demand. Also, it does not support services to the tune of 100%, even in disadvantaged areas. In some cases, the level of support for services comes to only 20% or 30% of the cost involved.

Deputy Finneran

Does that relate to provision or capital costs?

Ms O’Connor

The State does not fund capital costs for facilities outside disadvantaged areas.

Deputy Finneran

It provides 100% support for such facilities.

Ms O’Connor

Only in disadvantaged areas.

Deputy Finneran

It does so for any community facility.

Ms O’Connor

It supports community facilities in designated disadvantaged areas.

Deputy Finneran

A proposal submitted through the county child care committee to ADM or the Department receives 100% funding. Many facilities also receive a staffing grant.

Ms O’Connor

Yes.

Deputy Finneran

I support that system which was put in place to assist women who wished to return to work. However, I am concerned about the cost of buildings. It is often the case that three facilities in three locations cost the same as one in another location. I have compared such costs with the cost of building a national school. I do not know if the delegation has any experience in that regard. I have raised my concerns with the Minister and ADM about what I consider to be grandiose proposals.

Ms Dunne

I will deal with the point relating to farm spouses who remain at home to care for children and work in the family business. The National Women's Council of Ireland has worked with the IFA on this issue, on which the IFA has strong views. It was involved in and spoke at the launch of our social welfare reform campaign. We are proposing that women who remain at home to care for children under the age of 12 years, regardless of whether they come from a farming or non-farming background, should be credited for their time within the social insurance system. We are seeking to change into credits the disregards applied under the home-maker's scheme as such credits would provide more value in terms of a full contributory pension. Also, they would mean a person would be eligible for maternity benefit, paid parental leave and an old age contributory pension.

We are also asking that women engaged in part-time work and caring part-time for children over the age of 12 years be permitted to make voluntary contributions when they wish to do so.

Deputy Finneran

What will be the position of widows who are in a vulnerable position in terms of non-contributory pension?

Ms Dunne

Our proposal in that regard is based on parental assistance. The payment would be means-tested and available to low income families, many of whom could be widows, and contingent on the age of one's child. We are proposing that a person receive full payment until the child reaches the age of five years following which he or she would receive part payment from the age of five to 14 years. When the child reaches five years of age, the person would be linked to labour market activation programmes to enable him or her to return to employment. Those who would not require to be linked to such programmes would be permitted to return to work automatically and maintain their part-time payment until the child reaches 14 years of age. We are seeking to facilitate parenting and employment.

Deputy Finneran

Another group outside that category involves widows whose children are reared. They are in a desperate position, given that their family income has suddenly been halved and so on. There may be an occupational pension, but if there is no widow's and orphans' pension contribution, the pension will die with the husband.

Ms Dunne

I agree with the Deputy.

Deputy Finneran

There are some supports for persons who are rearing a family, but those who have reared their family are cut off. If they could hold on to part of their pension and work, it would help. However, if they go out to work, they will be in trouble in respect of their non-contributory pension. They are a vulnerable group and need to be supported in some other way.

Ms Dunne

We will be seeking to have credits made retrospective to 1973. That would catch some of those widows in terms of PRSI contributions and they would now be entitled to a full contributory pension.

Deputy O’Connor

I will be brief and apologise for being late. I was held up in my constituency.

Each time I meet the members of this delegation I have a groundhog day experience. I was present as a member of the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights and the Joint Committee on Health and Children when they made a similar submission. I compliment them in that regard. I am sorry I was not present for Deputy Ring's ground-breaking statement on the involvement of women, but I heard it as I rushed through my office. As a male politician, I am sensitive to the fact that I am surrounded in my constituency by men. If, in time, I am replaced by a woman, that will be okay.

I keep busy at my constituency office which is run on a full-time basis. I do nine weekly advice clinics. I take lots of telephone calls and never refuse one. The majority are from women. That is positive because it shows women are not afraid to come to male politicians and why should they? It is an important point to make. I come from a background where I had four sisters. Therefore, I was dominated a little by women in my early days. Probably I am still, but I was never spoiled. It gave me a perspective about women and how they reacted in communities. I am not patronising this group and want to be very careful not to do so. I am always impressed by the way women get involved, not only in family matters, going to public representatives and accessing information, but also in communities. It is important to say this.

It is also important to emphasise that sessions such as this are very important. I am aware that the members of the delegation have now been to several joint Oireachtas committees. I am sure they are wondering what will come out at the end. I speak as somebody who strongly believes in the democratic process and the importance of groups coming to Oireachtas committees to make their case and look for results. It is important to make the points being made, particularly on child care, but also on other issues such as social welfare payments, to Governments in a non-party political way. I will play my role. People contacted me this morning to ask why, at a time when the economy was booming — even the Opposition is saying this — the Government did not increase social welfare payments by huge amounts instead of building new roads or a Luas line to west Tallaght. Perhaps that is a point that should be made. The importance of these sessions is demonstrated by the fact that the council is making a case in respect of issues it sees as important. There is a very competitive atmosphere. I am sure the Minister for Finance is sitting in his office looking at the same submissions we are receiving. We receive tons of them every single day. There were six pre-budget submissions in my post this morning. It is very important for the National Women's Council to be competitive and make its case. Unfortunately, not everybody will get everything he or she wants, but this is an important process in democracy. I compliment the council in that regard and wish it continued success. I wonder if the delegates will turn up at any more meetings. If so, I look forward to this.

Deputy Wallace

I apologise for missing the presentation. I was delayed travelling from Cork.

Deputy O'Connor referred to the importance of these sessions for us as members of the committee. We are on different sides of the political divide, but agree on many of the issues involved. It is important to say this. Most members are unanimous in their approach to the issues that affect society, particularly those that come within the remit of the committee.

Has the council had meetings with officials of the Department of Social and Family Affairs? During the years we have found that when anomalies in the system are brought to their attention, many of them are removed. It is, therefore, important that both we and the council convey this to them. There is genuine interest in improving the lot of people in our society who are most in need. We can do this best by doing it together. I am sorry I missed the presentation, but I am glad we have the material presented. I hope that as a result of all our efforts, we can improve the lot of those most in need.

Dr. Joanna McMinn

The council has met the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Brennan, and his officials. Therefore, they are well aware of our proposals. The Minister was very supportive of our case.

Let me come back to the issue Deputy Ring raised regarding the recognition of women in the home. He mentioned older women who had made a huge sacrifice. That is an important issue because the Constitution recognises this work and the traditional role for women in the home. Now that social change has meant that the Government has an EU target to meet of 60% of women in the labour force by 2010, many older women feel they are left out and/or not recognised. The National Women's Council of Ireland strongly urges that there be recognition of women's unpaid care work in the home.

It is important to recognise the material impacts on women making that choice. For many women it is not a choice because women in the home are not a coherent group. This includes older women, widows, lone parents, women on low incomes and women who, as Senator Terry said, are homeless, but they are women with domestic responsibilities who cannot access the labour market and cannot get out of poverty because of child care costs. It is a vicious circle. What the National Women's Council of Ireland urges is that women should have a choice and that requires having supports in order that they can choose. Some women can but many do not have a choice. That is what we would like to support.

Chairman

I have always held a strong view on the abolition of the limitation rule. The social welfare system needs to be totally reformed. This cannot be done in a piecemeal fashion. If we go down that route, we will go nowhere. This needs to be a wholesale reformation. The problem with the social welfare system is that it is predicated on the principle of there being a male breadwinner in a male dominated society. Women were only later linked in as appendages with qualified adult dependants following directly from this. The system was established in the early 1900s and accentuated in the 1950s.

I strongly believe, coming from the background from which I come, that the social welfare system would not withstand the test of an equality case under Article 40.3 of the Constitution. There is a hierarchy of constitutional rights according to which women were encouraged to stay in the home and bear and rear children. There was plenty of lip service but no real acknowledgement. That is the historical development of the system. At one level the Constitution pays lip service and encourages women to remain in the home. It could be interpreted as a constitutional imperative for women to remain in the home, yet under equality legislation in the 1970s people like Mr. Justice Brian Walsh were in the process of interpreting the Constitution in a liberal way. I wonder whether this would stand up if the late Chief Justice Brian Walsh, Mr. Justice Henchy and others were in the Supreme Court today. I do not believe it would. The time has come to abolish the limitation rule. It is individualisation today in the taxation system and partnership tomorrow. The male, rather than the female, was always seen as the person who contributed to the social welfare system. It is a male dominated society. The man's name is the only one on many farm cheque books. How can a partnership be proved in order to make a contribution to the social welfare system? It is nonsense to suggest this. Women should be entitled to recognition for the role they play. They usually rear calves and look after lambs on the farm during the day, while the farmer goes to the mart or elsewhere. They often have to deal with emergencies, yet are not given any credit for this. I said this many years ago when Mary Murphy was involved in County Wexford and when it was not as popular to say it.

I have met many women who served rural society in small corner shops and who have been badly treated. Perhaps the delegation has not recognised the role they played in society. They have been obliterated from the face of the earth. Some men worked there, but it was mostly women who served in those dark shops. When they reached 60 years of age, they found themselves in abject poverty. They have served this country well, but have not received any recognition. We now want convenience foods and order goods on the Internet, for which I do not have any time. We seem to have forgotten our roots. We only want Flash Harry goods and have forgotten the good people who have contributed to and reared many families. Those who worked in such small shops could be called upon at 9 p.m. when many of the Flash Harry shops in the major urban centres were not open or would not give anyone anything on credit if he or she did not have the money. We should not forget them. We should make a strong case for those involved in small businesses and farm spouses to be recognised through the social welfare code. They should not be treated as the appendages of their male partners.

It is still the case that many women do not know what they will get from the social welfare system. People should not be fooled into thinking otherwise. It reminds me of the saying that every house has a toilet. However, thousands of houses do not have basic washing facilities or toilets. We should not get carried away with the Celtic tiger. Many do not know what is happening in the country. We allow pomp and ceremony and ostentatious displays of wealth to cloud the reality. I have strong views on the issue.

The committee spoke about visiting some of the Nordic countries to see if we could influence political thinking here. The delegation will probably read about it in the newspapers in which it will be described as a junket. Sweden spends 32% of its GDP on social protection, including this area. We spend 16%. We do not need to say any more.

I thank the delegation for coming. We have had a valuable meeting and an interesting exchange of views. I thank all the delegates and members for their contributions. We look forward to further dialogue with the delegation. As most speakers said, it prepared a number of documents and we have a number of applicants for its jobs. If any of its members wishes to step down, he or she should notify some of my colleagues because they are great advocates for the delegation's case.

The joint committee went into private session at 12.45 p.m. and adjourned at 1.05 p.m. until Tuesday, 15 November 2005.