JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 25 Jun 2008

Fuel Poverty: Discussion with Institute of Public Health in Ireland.

Vice Chairman (Deputy Charlie O’Connor)

I presume I do not have to point out that I am not Deputy Jackie Healy-Rae. I welcome the representatives of the Institute of Public Health in Ireland, Dr. Jane Wilde, CBE, and Dr. Helen McAvoy, who will discuss the institute's national strategy for fuel poverty. I also wish to welcome Mr. Jim Walsh, research and policy analyst, Combat Poverty Agency; Ms Ruth Buggie, programme executive, Sustainable Energy Ireland; Mr. John McMullan, chief executive, Bryson Charitable Group Limited; and Mr. John-Mark McCafferty, head of social justice and policy, Society of St. Vincent de Paul.

I will ask Dr. Wilde, the chief executive, and Dr. McAvoy, the senior policy officer of the IPHI, to begin the presentation on the institute's national strategy for fuel poverty. Before doing so, I wish to draw the attention of those present to the fact that members of the joint committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not, unfortunately, apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members of the committee are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official by name, or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. If all of that has not frightened the witnesses, I now invite them to make their presentation.

Dr. Jane Wilde

I thank the Vice Chairman. My name is Jane Wilde from the Institute of Public Health. We appreciate being invited to the joint committee. The Vice Chairman has already mentioned the different members who are with us, whom we also wish to thank. I will begin by saying a few words about their work so the committee will understand the nature of their work. I will start with Ms Ruth Buggie from Sustainable Energy Ireland, who works in partnership with local authorities and community groups to improve energy efficiency in low-income homes. Beside her is Mr. John-Mark McCafferty from the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. Members of the committee will know the work of the society. Mr. McCafferty is head of social justice and policy there. Beside him is Mr. John McMullan who is chief executive of the Bryson Group in Northern Ireland. We feel there are opportunities for all-island working in this area. Mr. McMullan has over 20 years' experience in the area so we felt it would be important to draw on that experience. Finally, Mr. Jim Walsh is a senior policy analyst in the Combat Poverty Agency.

The Institute of Public Health is an all-island organisation set up to promote co-operation between North and South, particularly in the areas of public health information, expertise and resources. We have a particular interest in helping equality in the gap between rich and poor in terms of health. We believe that fuel poverty is a key issue in that regard. Dr. Helen McAvoy, who is beside me, is our senior policy officer. She has been doing the work on fuel poverty, so I will now ask her to give the presentation if that is okay.

Vice Chairman

She is very welcome.

Dr. Helen McAvoy

The main thrust of the presentation is to highlight the urgency of the fuel poverty issue in Ireland at the moment, as well as presenting some of the consequences for health and social well-being. We are making a plea for increased leadership to focus on the issue, not just within the Department of Social and Family Affairs but across a range of Departments that have a role to play. We are calling for the development of a long-term Government-led strategy to address the issue of fuel poverty as increasing numbers of families are being disconnected and are unable to heat their homes due to rising fuel prices which will not go away.

I wish to highlight some key points from the institute's all-island policy paper on fuel poverty and health, which was produced in December 2007. Fuel poverty refers to the situation where a household is unable adequately to heat the home. All the representatives here are deeply concerned by the high levels of fuel poverty recorded on this island and the impact this has on everyone's health, especially on the vulnerable. The most recent analysis conducted by Sustainable Energy Ireland has placed the figure at around 10% of homes spending more than 10% of their net income on fuel. A recent ESRI report has indicated that the number of houses in fuel poverty is currently between 15% and 20%.

We know that the fuel poverty problem is particularly acute in Ireland compared to other European countries, with higher levels of excess winter mortality, this is the excess number of deaths that occur in the colder months of the year compared to the other months. Approximately 44% of the excess number of deaths can be directly attributed to poor housing standards, this is around 652 deaths on an annual basis, which is clearly unacceptable.

Low-income households, especially those occupied by lone parents, older people and the unemployed, are at greatest risk. Our concern around fuel poverty at this time is that fuel prices have risen significantly. Electricity prices have in fact doubled in the past eight years, which is a major threat to efforts to tackle fuel poverty. We have practically no control over the global forces affecting fuel poverty, so our efforts must focus on improving the fuel efficiency of existing and future housing stock. We have a low-income housing programme operating for private households through Sustainable Energy Ireland but this is not operating nationally. It is conducting improved energy efficiency on approximately 4,000 homes but, with over 144,000 homes in fuel poverty, this is clearly not enough.

Increasing the value of the fuel allowance is obviously a concern of the social and family affairs portfolio. This is effective at reducing the severity of fuel poverty in the short term but it is not a long-term solution in that paying ever more to heat energy-inefficient homes is simply not good value for money. There is much learning to be gained from looking at some of the social welfare and social allowance options that have been explored in Northern Ireland such as affordability tariffs.

We welcome the development of policy and legislation to improve energy efficiency and to protect our climate, but we are concerned that the needs of fuel-poor householders should be respected within efforts to promote energy efficiency in the home. For example, carbon tax makes the polluter pay but if a person lives in a poor household that relies on an open fire or an electricity-based heating system, he or she is likely to be excessively penalised by these measures. We are keen that further policy and legislation changes on energy efficiency will cater for fuel-poor households.

The current policy landscape is the White Paper on Energy and the energy policy framework produced by the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. This names the National Action Plan for Social Inclusion as the main instrument of delivery. As the committee will be aware, the national action plan is co-ordinated by the Office for Social Inclusion on behalf of the Department of Social and Family Affairs, but the issue of fuel poverty seems to fall between a number of stools and this does a great disservice to the serious needs of fuel-poor households. The White Paper on Energy had undertaken to set up an interdepartmental group on fuel poverty by the end of 2007, and this has not happened. Therefore, we are calling for increased co-ordination and leadership between the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and the Office for Social Inclusion to make this happen as a matter of urgency. The time to do this is now when the weather is still reasonably warm, if a little wet, so that we will have some action by the winter.

There have been several Dáil debates on fuel poverty this year. In January, the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, seemed to indicate that the National Action Plan for Social Inclusion was the main instrument. In February, the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Martin Cullen, stated he did not see his Department as the lead Department in the development of a strategic approach to fuel poverty. In late February, the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, acknowledged that the interdepartmental group had not been formed as proposed in the White Paper on Energy. He suggested that he was waiting on the results of some research. I do not see how waiting on the results of research is a good tack to employ in that the group still needs to be formed and the results of the research can be integrated subsequently.

We propose three key points here. People are living in cold damp houses in Ireland. The average energy use in Irish homes is 31% higher than the EU 15 average. Therefore, there is good evidence to show that our housing stock is extremely poor. We are under investing in improving the energy efficiency of low-income housing. We need increased political and departmental leadership, otherwise this winter people will develop serious illness and die because their houses are cold.

The formation of the interdepartmental group on fuel poverty is an urgent matter. We urge co-ordination between the Office for Social Inclusion and the Department of Communications, Energy and National Resources to ensure that happens, not in a year's time but soon. We would like the interdepartmental group to explore the possibility of developing a high-level governmental fuel poverty strategy similar to the one currently in place in Northern Ireland.

While we recognise that this committee's focus is on the remit of the Department of Social and Family Affairs, we plead strongly that this is a multidimensional issue that extends beyond the fuel allowance, the living alone allowance and the issue of social welfare — although they are important components of it. There is much benefit to be gained from adopting an all-island approach as Northern Ireland has had this quite high on its political agenda for several years. I thank the committee for listening.

Vice Chairman

Does anyone else wish to comment at this point?

Dr. Jane Wilde

We had thought that if there were any questions, the different members of the delegation would be more than happy to answer.

Vice Chairman

That is fine. I am just trying to helpful.

Dr. Jane Wilde

You are being helpful.

Vice Chairman

I propose to invite my colleagues to ask questions and then we will open the floor to the delegation again. I call Senator Butler.

Senator Larry Butler

I take the opportunity to welcome the delegation to give the committee their knowledge of matters on the ground. The purpose of the committee is to listen to what they have to say.

It is interesting to hear that there are more than 100,000 homes in the older single and family lower-income unit bracket, with which there are problems. We must tackle such matters through the local authorities and the various bodies responsible for housing at that level.

In fairness, this provides an opportunity. We are experiencing a downturn in the housing market and there are approximately 50,000 people who could become unemployed in the near future. I suggest, as I have been doing in the Seanad, that we look at what is known as the green-collar worker — those who insulate and install more efficient heating in such houses — and move away from using oil and gas. With new technology there is no need in this day and age to burn coal, which the delegation just mentioned and which is a dirty product. A pellet boiler or something of that description would heat a house sufficiently and provide hot water. We could consider solar energy. Nowadays we can consider many different approaches that are much more efficient than an open fire, the heat from which escapes up the chimney. Some 25% of all one's heat goes straight out the window where there is single glazing.

There are savings for the Government and this Department to be made in looking at a new approach to such housing. I will urge that in the budget substantial grants be made available to the local authorities to ensure that this work can be done. That is extremely important. Whether we like it or not, soon we will be faced with energy rating on housing. That will cost the State a great deal when it starts paying these European bills for carbon emissions. We must try to deal with that as soon as possible. Up until now I suppose there was not a huge push in that regard. With the downturn in the housing market, house renovations including better heating systems are certainly more achievable than ever.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I thank the delegation for coming here this afternoon. Dr. Wilde stated in her opening statement that she was deeply concerned. All of us who deal on a daily basis with the public are concerned as well. Many elderly people, as she explained clearly, are living in sub-standard accommodation. Much of that accommodation should be demolished.

Dublin City Council has gone through the regeneration of developing new senior citizen complexes. I have just got word that one of the complexes in my constituency, in Kilmainham, has received an award from the Architectural Association of Ireland. It is a fabulous complex. It meets all the health and safety standards. My one criticism of it, which I have written to the housing manager about, is that the heating comes on at 7 o'clock in the morning and goes off at 11 o'clock at night, which means that an elderly person who does not feel too well during the night and wants to get up, must turn on an electric fire. It is dangerous to use open electric fires. I had cause to visit somebody approximately two weeks ago in this complex who was using one of these two-bar electric fires. I was concerned that these residents, even though they are being heated by a system in the complex, still feel a need to be able to add extra heat by using these dangerous open electric fires. As I said, I wrote to the housing manager asking him to look again at the timing of the heating system. I know how it works in my own home. If one of my children is sick at night and I have to get up, I can switch on the heating but that cannot be done in these complexes.

Having an elderly mother of 88 years of age, I am very concerned that the fuel allowance stops at a certain time in the year. Elderly people are very concerned about the few shillings they have and like the security of it. I do not understand why the fuel allowance stops after 27 weeks. Given the weather today and over the past couple of days, it is not like the summer. Elderly people should not be without heating and fuel.

Some of the action aid groups have been very helpful in insulating people's homes, including attics, and by helping them in many other ways. The response times have been quick and they have not left people waiting a long time.

Senator Larry Butler spoke about solar heating, pellet burners and so on. They are lovely if one has a nice house and the space to install the large ugly burners and to use them properly. They do not all work successfully, and I have had experience of them.

Given the downturn in the economy, I fear the elderly will suffer along with families on low incomes and, in particular, single parents who, in the area in which I live, live in poor private accommodation with water running down walls, inadequate heating and inadequate space to hang out clothes. Our role is to listen to what the delegation has to say. Hopefully, through our role as public representatives, we may be able to change some of the issues.

Deputy Joe Carey

I commend the delegation on its presentation. It spoke about an important issue in Ireland — the haves and the have-nots. Fuel poverty hits those on lower incomes. In terms of going forward, the delegation made a good proposal, that is, to follow the lead of Northern Ireland and set up an interdepartmental group on fuel poverty. It is incumbent on the committee to make a recommendation to the Minister for Social and Family Affairs that this interdepartmental group is set up. We should write to the Minister asking for her views on the formation of such a group.

The White Paper on energy from the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources skirted around this issue. A link is required between the Department of Social and Family Affairs and the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. We could grab the issue by the horns by setting up an interdepartmental group. I propose we write to the Minister to get her response and come back to the delegation.

Vice Chairman

Is it agreed to do that? Agreed.

Senator Larry Butler

I would like to inform Deputy Catherine Byrne that the technology in terms of wood burning stoves, pellet burners and so on has moved on substantially. In a new block of apartments, there should be proper electronic devices to time when heating should come on and go off. It not only saves energy but it is the sensible technological thing to do in new blocks of apartments.

I was not suggesting pellet burners for apartments but for houses. They are very successful and reasonable to run. My daughter put one into her house and she received a grant for so doing. She gets hot water for pennies while my gas bill has gone up by 40% or 50%.

We will have to set up a group to pull all these issues together, especially the energy issue and ensuring public housing is properly insulated and is up to a proper standard because if we do not do so, we will be penalised when it comes to energy rating. We need to pull together a group from the Department of Social and Family Affairs, the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and the local authorities. We seem to be all over the place. There does not seem to be joined up thinking here. We make statements and speak to people who appear before the committee but there should be a follow up.

Vice Chairman

I have often made the point that it is important when delegations appear before joint committees, they leave in the hope that progress will be made on the various issues. I am always very sensitive to that and that when they return, as they often do, progress has been made. I hope the delegation will take on board that there is cross-party support for what it has said. We will do what we can. I have accepted a proposal made by Deputy Joe Carey in that regard.

Mr. John McMullan

I pay tribute to the committee for its interest in this important matter and for its knowledge and understanding of the issue of fuel poverty. Deputy Catherine Byrne pointed out that fuel poverty hits the most vulnerable in our communities hardest, that is, those who are least able to articulate the issue or provide for themselves. It is, therefore, important the Government has something in place to support them.

Senator Larry Butler used the figure of 100,000 homes and the opportunities that creates. In Northern Ireland, it is equivalent to over 225,000 homes. The figures for fuel poverty across the UK are 12% in England, 24% in Wales and 23.5% in Scotland. It is probably 20% in the Republic of Ireland. The 2004 figure in Northern Ireland was 24% while the 2006 figure was 34%. We estimate it is currently around 40%. The changes in energy costs are driving that. In the North this year, the price of oil has increased by 96%; natural gas by 28%; coal by 25% and electricity by 14%. Another increase is predicted this year.

The problem will get worse and that is why it is important to have a response fit for purpose. The proposal of an interdepartmental group is critically important to balance the interests of various Departments. That has been our experience in the North. However, the one caveat, or concern, I raise is that in the North, we have had to push that the interdepartmental group has a positive challenge built into it and that it not only applies to the Departments. Having attended an interdepartmental group, it was interesting to hear each of the Departments display how well they had performed in meeting and exceeding their targets. However, no one caught on that fuel poverty had increased by 10%, so something is going wrong.

If one is of a mind to propose an interdepartmental group, it would make sense if it was led or chaired by a Minister, if it made use of the talents already available in the South and if people who understand fuel poverty are around the table to help, support and encourage the right decisions.

Ms Ruth Buggie

I will update the committee on two research projects underway. One is working with the Combat Poverty Agency to interview 600 householders, 300 of whom came under the remit of the warmer homes scheme. A year later we returned and interviewed them again on the impact of the scheme. That report should be launched later this summer. The second was to assess the effectiveness of high efficiency central heating in homes in Waterford. That scheme was rolled out last year through funding provided by the Department of Social and Family Affairs, the effectiveness of which is being assessed at present. We are also undertaking a review of the energy efficiency of the home through an energy rating before and after. Hopefully, both of those reports will feed into the interdepartmental group to inform policy for the future.

Mr. John-Mark McCafferty

I am from the Society of St. Vincent de Paul. The Society of St. Vincent de Paul appeared before the committee two months ago on a broader platform of looking at budget 2008 and, perhaps, with some pointers for 2009. In its dealing with poverty, the society is involved with various statutory and voluntary organisations, because of the huge problem it has become. Mr. John McMullan has mentioned that the issue is getting worse, not better, and that the challenges are here and now rather than in a year's time. ESB prices were announced last week. This does not affect just a small number of people, it has the potential to affect 20% of households in the Republic. Organisations like the Society of St. Vincent de Paul feel compelled to step into breach and assist families to the tune of millions of euro each year in a number of ways.

One of the areas which has become a pressure point, as well as the increase in food prices, is energy. The society, North and South, is trying to tackle that fuel and energy poverty with a short-term solution. We acknowledge it is a short-term solution — it is cash assistance and advice. We refer people to the Money Advice and Budgeting Service and to other voluntary organisations and local statutory bodies which might assist people. We are fulfilling that role and spending much of the public's money on an issue that has not been tackled, as we have heard earlier, in a co-ordinated way.

We are committed to ensuring the national action plan for social inclusion is implemented but, as the committee has heard from Dr. Helen McAvoy, the issue of fuel poverty as a strategy is not fully taken into account. We welcome the fact that this committee is taking the issue very seriously and will liaise with the Minister. We in the society have spoken to the Minister, Deputy Mary Hanafin, in the past six weeks, and she has asked us what are the pressing issues in terms of low income households and low income families. The three big issues are food, energy and its cost and the quality of dwellings in the private rented sector. We are spending a great deal of money in that sector, in paying for substandard dwellings. We are aware the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is working on this issue but all these areas interact and we are happy to note there will be some concerted effort at a political level to tackle it.

Mr. Jim Walsh

I will pick up on the issue of the fuel allowance. That addresses one of the components of fuel poverty, that is, inadequate income and the cost of fuel. Therefore, it is a welcome response. At present, the fuel allowance is paid for 30 weeks, having been increased from 29 weeks last year. The value of the allowance has been increased from €9 to €18. Approximately, 300,000 households are in receipt of the fuel allowance at a cost of €156 million per annum. While it is positive that expenditure has increased, the downside is twofold. One is that fuel poverty is a structural problem and has to do with the heating system and the quality of the house.

A one-dimensional response, as in the fuel allowance, will not address the core problem which is a structural issue. I have seen a paper that refers to the fuel allowance as "heating the sky". This is on the basis that somebody buys and burns a bag of coal, the heat efficiency of which is 20%, therefore, 80% of the value is being dissipated. It is like pouring water into a bucket which has a big hole in the bottom. It does not fill up because there is a structural problem in the bucket that needs to be fixed. That highlights the need for a multifaceted response and bringing together the housing authorities, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the energy authorities, the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources and the social welfare groups. Each Department has a vested interest. For example, the Department of Social and Family Affairs could begin to save money if the basic problem was being improved. Similarly, other interests would have improved benefits also if the problem was addressed.

I suggest the committee write to the three Ministers — I do not know if that is within its remit — because it is a cross-departmental issue. I am aware that one needs to get all the parties around the table. The Minister for Social and Family Affairs may say her Department is not the lead Department but another Department is. If the committee were to write to the three Departments it might get some response. The other issue is whether there is scope for the committee to have bilateral discussions with a parallel committee on, say, energy, to try to move the issue forward.

The other issue about the fuel allowance is that it is a household payment and is means tested and only certain households are eligible. What we have seen in recent years is a greater reliance on the fuel allowance as a policy instrument, but it is a flawed policy instrument in terms of poverty traps and who can benefit. There are limits to what one can expect out of a fuel allowance as a policy response. Increasing mainline welfare payments may, ultimately, be a better approach. It is appealing to have something that seems to be targeted but it has shortcomings. One would not want to put all one's eggs into that basket.

Vice Chairman

I would be happy to modify Deputy Carey's proposal.

Deputy Joe Carey

I am very reasonable. I think that is a good proposal.

Vice Chairman

I suggest the secretariat prepare a note for the committee for the next meeting when we will, perhaps, discuss the issues again and see how we might go forward. We will do that.

Senator Larry Butler

Mr. Walsh has made a very important statement in terms of the group and pulling the strands together. It is not just about poverty, it is about the whole structure of the building into which we put these people. One can get all the heating systems one wishes but if the building is left in its present state it would not be efficient. The scheme is a cost on the Department while the situation remains as it is. Mr. Walsh proposes that we bring all the strands of the different committees together and that we might get agreement with the Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Social and Family Affairs, and Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, otherwise we are wasting our time as it takes us far too long to get to the nub of the problem. It is the old situation in the council, we start off with a Part VII and two years later we might be lucky to have it on public display for——

Vice Chairman

That was why they abolished the dual mandate.

Senator Larry Butler

Exactly. We need to pull the strands together on social welfare, environment and energy. We could probably get a good outcome if that was done.

Vice Chairman

I suggest, and the secretariat will take it on board, that a note be taken in regard to these matters and that it will be an item on the agenda at the next meeting of the committee where we discuss our own business. We will all have an opportunity to drive it forward, which is what I suggest we should do. Does Dr. Wilde wish to sum up?

Dr. Jane Wilde

We would like to make one other point. We entered this debate primarily through the lens of public health but there is a key issue in which the Department of Health and Children is involved because fuel poverty has a major impact on health, as Dr. McEvoy mentioned and outlined in the report we presented. There is a great deal of information that might be helpful. Aspects such as excess winter admissions and the bed crisis in the health service can be greatly affected also. We would like to see representatives of the Department of Health and Children at the table, if that was acceptable to the committee.

Mr. Jim Walsh

There is a figure mentioned in the report of 2,800 excess winter deaths which appear to be attributable to fuel poverty.

Dr. Jane Wilde

That is across the island. We believe such deaths could be prevented if serious action was taken.

Mr. Jim Walsh

That is a tangible impact.

Dr. Jane Wilde

I thank everybody who accompanied us today. I also thank members. We very much appreciate the invitation and the response.

Vice Chairman

I apologise again on behalf of the Chairman who is involved in other business. Other colleagues, including the main party spokespersons, Deputies Enright and Shortall, are with the Minister. I thank Dr. Wilde and the delegation for their comprehensive presentation. It has been a good session. It is important to make the point on behalf of all my colleagues that we have listened carefully to what has been said. There is much support from all parties for the points made. We will do what we can to have the issues progressed to the satisfaction of all our communities.

I regret I will be unable to attend the next meeting of the joint committee which will be held on Wednesday, 9 July.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.55 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 9 July 2008.