Skip to main content
Normal View

JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 9 Jul 2008

Community Welfare Service: Discussion with SIPTU.

We will now have a presentation by SIPTU on the proposed transfer of community welfare officers and superintendent community welfare officers from the Health Service Executive to the Department of Social and Family Affairs. I welcome from the SIPTU community welfare section, Mr. Pat Lennon, chairman and superintendent community welfare officer, Mr. Bill Hicks, superintendent community welfare officer, Mr. Michael Cunningham, community welfare officer, and Mr. Ger Curtain, community welfare officer. I apologise for the absence of the Chairman, Deputy Jackie Healy-Rae, who must attend to other duties.

Before Mr. Lennon commences the presentation, I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, that same privilege does not apply to witnesses. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Pat Lennon

Mr. Bill Hicks is from the Traveller unit of the community welfare section of SIPTU and Mr. Michael Cunningham is from the homeless unit. Mr. Curtain, who is from Tralee, had hoped to meet the Chairman, Deputy Healy-Rae.

On behalf of my colleagues, I thank the joint committee for its kind invitation to make a submission regarding the proposed transfer of the community welfare service from the Health Service Executive to the Department of Social and Family Affairs. Departmental officials from the management side shared their perspective on this matter only a few months ago.

As this is the third occasion on which representatives from the service have appeared before the joint committee - the text of previous submissions is included for members' information as appendices to the submission - I propose to concentrate on the following key areas: the inescapable logic of leaving the service where it is; the dual functionality of the service; the discretion and flexibility which are vital features of the service; and the delivery of the service from multiple locations within local communities.

To start with a key argument, I will cite a US Government official of the 1930s, a gentleman called Bert Lance, who was credited with the famous line, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". It has never been demonstrated to us that the community welfare service is broken. For more than 30 years, it has responded to a range of issues, problems and circumstances effectively, efficiently, promptly and creatively in line with its core objectives of alleviating social distress and working to prevent its recurrence, as enunciated at its inception by Mr. Frank Cluskey in the following terms:

If the grave social problems which lead to eligibility for social welfare allowance are to be solved and if the persons concerned are to be supported and helped to achieve their rightful place in the community, then there must be genuine connection between the income maintenance service and personal social services. It is generally accepted that effective personal social services should have a sound community basis which can be ensured by the work of the community care sections of the health boards.

As someone who has been proud to work in the service for most of the intervening period, it is not credible to characterise as intelligent or productive health reform the severing of this connection between income maintenance service and personal social services, which forms the bridge between poverty and health. In planning to implement the transfer, perhaps conscious of the original good reason the community welfare service was located administratively within the health boards, officials have curiously misdefined health and personal services as referring only to schemes.

The unpalatable truth which needs to be acknowledged is that in the event that the community welfare service is moved to the Department of Social and Family Affairs, such an immediate multidisciplinary response may not be provided as quickly and efficiently as heretofore and a bank of local knowledge would be lost to the Health Service Executive, leaving a void in terms of linking communities to the health service system. It is perverse to imagine that community welfare staff have a vital role to play within the primary care model and should, therefore, be removed from the HSE on the flimsy pretext that their function is not a core one. It is difficult not to suspect that other agendas are at play, specifically that the Department of Social and Family Affairs, which to date has not acknowledged or valued the wider welfare role, now wishes to exercise a direct control which would be narrower in its scope and more prescriptive in its delivery.

The dual functionality of the service is one of its main strengths which has been taken for granted in the context of the decision to relocate the service. A community welfare service without the benefit of the SWA scheme could not function effectively without the supports of the community care structure within the health service. The functions performed in society by the Departments of Social and Family Affairs and Health and Children require a joint response in many instances. The community welfare service provides this response and, in doing so, helps achieve the objectives of both agencies.

The SWA scheme, as a residual, supplementary and discretionary service, is an integral element of the wider community care structure, which enables a holistic multidisciplinary response - one which contrasts with the Department's entitlements based approach - to be taken to the needs of the vulnerable individual and-or family. At the risk of stating the obvious, does a "Humpty Dumpty" manoeuvre of breaking up and dismantling the service and sending one group of 167 community welfare officers and another group of 738 community welfare officers in two different directions represent the best way of preserving dual functionality? I do not believe that is the case.

Many who work in the service and who realise that the health reform arguments do not really hold up to scrutiny are convinced that this is being used as a convenient device to virtually abolish the service by stealth. Discretion and flexibility are features that are unique and vital to the service and our being located at one step remove from the Department is an essential guarantee to their being exercised without interference. There have been assurances that these will be preserved and it has been stated that the clauses in the Social Welfare and Pensions Acts 2007 and 2008 which are subject to commencement orders do not in any way change the primary legislation in this regard. That is not entirely true.

By seeking to render CWOs as civil servants and, therefore, employees under the direct control of the Department of Social and Family Affairs, the freedom, the independence and the buffer that goes with being at one step remove will be gone and the context in which discretion and flexibility are exercised will be radically altered. This is the same Department that has, on multiple occasions - quietly and sometimes not so quietly - suppressed its frustration in respect of this very issue. To translate the message in its politest form, it was a case of "use your discretion but not too much or not in that way". If or when we are moved, the Department of Social and Family Affairs will be much better placed to rein in the exercise of discretion.

The community welfare services is currently delivered from almost 1,000 locations, approximately 200 of which are base CWO locations. There are 58 Department of Social and Family Affairs local offices and yet we are informed that co-location will be considered on an ongoing basis. The manner in which it is proposed that staffing resources will be distributed will further threaten the reach and accessibility of the service. For purposes of administering the services of the Department of Social and Family Affairs, virtually every CWO district in every operational area outside the eastern region would need to be redrawn, with fewer staff being obliged to cover the same ground. In Clare it will be 14 officers from 19, in Louth 11 from 17, in Sligo-Leitrim ten from 17, in Laois-Offaly 12 from 19.6, in Kerry 18 from 24 and so on. It is clear the prospects are such that the first casualty of the transfer proceeding would be the delivery of the service from its current range of multiple locations within local communities.

Although the terms and conditions of those working in the community welfare service will be adversely affected, this is not about resistance to change or improving the odds of obtaining a pay off. There is always a mechanism for resolving industrial relations issues. However, the bottom line remains that the transfer is founded on a false premise which is ill-conceived and which is not viable in operational terms.

We will now take questions from committee members. These will be banked and our guests may reply to them at the end.

I welcome our guests. I understand from where Mr. Lennon is coming in respect of this matter. I am concerned, however, that this transfer of staff was approved by the Dáil prior to the general election. The points raised by Mr. Lennon were made by my party's then spokesperson, Deputy Stanton, in the Dáil at that stage and we lost the battle in respect of them. I am not terribly optimistic with regard to the possibility of having the decision reversed.

I tabled some priority questions to the Minister in respect of this matter in order to obtain an understanding of where the process is going. Mr. Lennon stated that the role of community welfare officers will be narrower in scope and more prescriptive in delivery. The Government has promised that this will not be the case and that community welfare officers will retain their independence, etc. This is the major concern that I and many of my colleagues harbour in respect of this matter. Rightly or wrongly, community welfare officers are often our first port of call when people approach us with problems. We are familiar with the community welfare officers in our areas and can contact them in order to have issues dealt with.

Community welfare officers comprise an important part of the response system that is in place. I am not convinced by the so-called assurances we have received to the effect that the position will not change. What exactly would the community welfare officers like us to do in respect of this matter? The presentation is clear in the context of the impact of the transfer. However, I do not see minds being changed in respect of that transfer.

When the Dáil approved the motion relating to the transfer, no staff were to remain with the HSE. Arguments were made at that time in respect of why all staff had to be transferred to the Department of Social and Family Affairs. However, these are being contradicted by the fact that some individuals are remaining with the HSE. Reasons are not being provided as to why that is the case. There is supposed to be an embargo on recruitment in place. However, I know people who were interviewed for CWO positions in the HSE. This was despite the fact that 75% of CWOs are supposed to be off-loaded to the Department of Social and Family Affairs. The committee could put a long list of questions to the Ministers for Social and Family Affairs and Health and Children in respect of this matter.

Has the amount of work on hand in community welfare offices risen dramatically? I received representations from local offices throughout the country to the effect that they are not able to deal with their workloads. I contacted some other offices and was informed that they are able to handle their workloads. However, there appears to be an issue in some offices regarding staffing levels and the amount of work on hand.

I support the thrust of what Mr. Lennon said. However, I would like to know how we might progress the issues to which he referred.

I welcome the delegation. Like Deputy Enright, I accept the fundamental point regarding the inevitability that the nature and character of the service will change if it is transferred to the Department of Social and Family Affairs. Everyone is aware that the ethos within the Department is entirely different to that of the community welfare officers. The Department's decisions are based on entitlements in law. In other words, a person either qualifies for payment or he or she does not. The service offered by community welfare officers is extremely flexible and relates to meeting people's immediate needs. That flexibility is critical and the need for it was recognised when the service was originally established.

All members of the committee would accept that the flexibility to which I refer is vital, particularly in the context that it allows community welfare officers to provide immediate assistance and support to people who might find themselves in dire straits at particular times. We have a role in voicing our views in respect of that matter and relaying them to the Ministers concerned. I hope that the latter might be done following this meeting.

As Mr. Lennon stated, our guests have appeared before the committee on two previous occasions. Has any progress been made in the interim? Has the Department indicated the timeframe to which it is working in respect of this matter?

I presume the industrial relations issues which have arisen are not insurmountable and there are mechanisms in place for dealing with them. Will Mr. Lennon indicate where matters stand from an industrial relations point of view? I am surprised that matters were allowed to reach this stage without industrial action being threatened or taken.

If the transfer proceeds, what will be the implications in the context of accommodation for community welfare officers? Have our guests been given any firm indication as to what the Department is planning to do and what might be the likely cost implications?

I welcome the delegation. It would be an act of madness to do what is intended. There is no added advantage in what is proposed. There will be no benefits to communities in general or to individuals. The service provided by community welfare officers throughout the State is exceptional. Community welfare officers must be applauded for the care they provide and the professionalism they display in the context of their approach to people and the fact that they ensure information relating to clients remains confidential.

Any move to dismantle the current service would be a retrograde step. The Joint Committee on Social and Family Affairs, as an organ of the Oireachtas, must support community welfare officers in their campaign. The concerns of community welfare officers have fallen on deaf ears and the Department has not engaged with them, which is terrible.

Let us consider this matter in the context of the current economic climate. In some areas of County Clare, unemployment has risen by 12% - an increase of some 469 people signing on - in the past month. At the same time, the community welfare service is being dismantled and there are no firm proposals regarding where community welfare officers will be accommodated. There is great flexibility in the service and community welfare officers can process payments in two days, whereas it might take the Department of Social and Family Affairs five weeks to do so.

As already stated, what is happening represents an act of madness. I propose that the committee send a message to the Minister to the effect that the community welfare service should remain as it is and should not be transferred. I do not know if we can alter the position because, as Deputy Enright stated, a motion has already been passed by the Dáil. At a minimum, however, the committee must send a message to the Minister and state that, because of the pain that will be caused to those who access the service, what is proposed should not proceed.

I formally second the Deputy's proposal.

We will deal with that matter at the end of the question and answer session.

Deputy Enright alluded to the fact that this matter was dealt with by the previous Dáil. I was not a Member of the Oireachtas at that stage. In such circumstances, I am of the view that what is proposed should not proceed, particularly as the community welfare officers have not yet been moved.

I concur with Deputy Carey on this matter. Each day I deal with people who use the community welfare service. The most important aspects of this matter are the discretion exercised by community welfare officers and the flexibility of the service they provide. I see community welfare officers as part of a primary care team structure - based in health centres - designed to assist unfortunate families in dealing with the crises they face on a daily basis. They do not, as Mr. Lennon stated, offer a service that is based on entitlement.

I do not accept that this matter is a fait accompli. I am strongly of the view that the decision of the previous Dáil should be reversed.

I also welcome the delegation. I met our guests' colleagues at local level in order to discuss this issue. What is happening is completely unacceptable. However, as other members stated, the motion in respect of it was rammed through the previous Dáil.

Since I first became a Deputy over 16 years ago, the circumstances in which community welfare officers operate have become increasingly difficult. It used to be the case that in emergency cases - for example, where people were diagnosed with cancer - medical cards were issued immediately and matters were sorted out. Now, however, certain staff insist that people must provide much more information than was previously the case. I am aware of one case where a person died before a medical card was issued.

I am extremely concerned with regard to what will happen if the service is transferred to the Department of Social and Family Affairs. Deputy Carey referred to a five-week delay in the latter processing claims or issuing payments. There are many instances where 12 or 14-week delays occur. With the imposition of a ban on recruitment and the likely increase in the number of people claiming social welfare payments, the situation can only deteriorate.

Mr. Lennon stated that the Department of Social and Family Affairs wishes to exercise a direct control which would be narrower in its scope. That is everyone's main concern. However, I do not know how we might assist our guests at this stage.

Like Deputy Shortall, I would like to know where matters stand at present. Have negotiations taken place in respect of what will happen? Is it likely that the entire system will break down? I am not stating that all community welfare officers are perfect but the majority are excellent at what they do. They make every effort to do what is necessary.

We have not been informed with regard to how much money will be saved as a result of the transfer. It would be difficult to justify the move without information being provided in that regard.

I thank the staff of the community welfare service for their assistance during the past 16 years or so. I will do whatever I can to ensure their work, regardless of where it is done, will be recognised in the future.

I thank our guests for their presentation. As Deputy Carey stated, what is happening does not make sense. A number of years ago, local authorities decided to establish local offices within communities. That was one of the best moves they made because it enabled them to connect with people. The advantage of this move on the part of the local authorities is that one becomes familiar with the staff and has a personal relationship with them. One can contact them immediately when one needs assistance. Those who are most vulnerable in society can just walk into these offices. If they are unfamiliar with what is involved, some people contact their local representatives, who direct them on to the local offices.

It would be a terrible shame if the link to which I refer was destroyed. People who are in dire straits and who need to visit community welfare officers will be placed at an even greater disadvantage.

Other members have more experience of these matters than I. Perhaps there is no way of reversing the decision but we must reflect on the fact that local authorities and other groups have decided that the best way to move forward is to base services within communities. That is where community welfare officers should be operating and I hope something can be done to overturn the decision that has been made.

Mr. Pat Lennon

I thank members for their wonderful response and for the support they have shown. I will try to answer as many of the questions as possible. I will revert to my colleagues in respect of any to which I cannot reply. I thank Deputy Enright for asking a question on our behalf recently, which was useful.

We will be at least one step removed if this goes ahead but we want to stay where we are. On the question of the increased workload, the Department stated recently that 17,000 people have applied for jobseeker's allowance since Christmas. Many of them come to us because of the way the Department does its business. It takes quite a while for officials to process a claim and one of our functions is that, in the meantime, we will pay a basic supplementary welfare allowance to them. With the numbers applying increasing, that means our work will increase. According to the most recent figures, the number of claims for basic payment to our service increased by 30% over the past three or four months and that is set to continue if the economy worsens.

I refer to Deputy Shortall's questions on the IR issue. We have been negotiating with the Department for two years on foot of the Government decision. We have had up to 20 meetings, which were divided among two sub-committees dealing with the future of the service and IR issues. The Department has made proposals to us but, at this stage, we do not feel they will address the problems or give us the safeguards we require if the service is to progress. The process is to reach a final plenary session as far as we are aware. Conal Devine, the facilitator, has been chairing the meetings. The final plenary meeting is next Tuesday, 15 July. The process could finish there. On the basis of what they have offered to date, it will not go further than that. The facilitator will make a report and that will be available to everybody. That is where we are on the IR issues.

Mr. Ger Curtin

Deputy Shortfall mentioned she was surprised we had not gone on strike. It is a reflection on our service that we are willing to engage and meet our employers, the Department, and examine all the proposals on the table but, as Mr. Lennon said, they have been not been attractive for us going forward. It is a compliment to us that we have maintained connections and negotiations with our employers and we have given them every opportunity to develop the service going forward.

Mr. Pat Lennon

On the accommodation issue, the Department has given us assurances that we will stay in our present accommodation in the health centres for the immediate future but if some of its local offices become available, we will probably move into them. If I was in the Department's position, I would be thinking around that on economic grounds. Officials have given us an assurance that we will stay for a short term in the health centres. They said they have a service level agreement with the HSE to do that.

It is important that the CWOs receive recognition for the work they do and that they have appropriate accommodation and so on. Public representatives are worried, however, about how CWOs will be able to deliver the service in their new role. That is why we feel strongly about this. Perhaps the Vice Chairman could indicate how his party feels about this, given that the absence of Government commentary on this critical issue is noticeable.

I will not be schizophrenic on any issue but Deputy Enright and others have pointed out a Dáil decision is in place. We will deal with a motion in private session, which contains a recommendation along the lines mentioned by colleagues. We will all sign up to that. The clerk has advised this matter must be dealt with when the delegation withdraws. It states, "The Joint Oireachtas Committee on Social and Family Affairs does recommend that the Minister for Social and Family Affairs review as a matter of urgency the decision to transfer the CWO service from HSE to the Department of Social and Family Affairs with a view to reversing that decision".

Mr. Pat Lennon

I thank the committee very much.

Are CWOs given a list of the landlords registered under the Private Residential Tenancies Board before they make decisions on rent supplement?

Mr. Bill Hicks

It is not a condition for granting a rent supplement.

Do they have to check?

Mr. Bill Hicks

We make various checks. We verify that the landlord is the owner of the property, etc.

Is there an obligation to check that the landlord's PPS number has been provided to the Private Residential Tenancies Board and that he is paying tax?

Mr. Bill Hicks

No, there are obligations on us to report certain information to the Revenue, which is done either through ISTS, the computerised system, or direct contact through the Department and the Department of Finance, or Revenue.

Mr. Pat Lennon

A recent memorandum from the Department intimated that it would like us in future to have the PPS number before we make a payment or engage with landlords. My understanding is that a legislative amendment is needed before that could come about. That is the thinking in the Department.

Mr. Ger Curtin

That could be extremely difficult because people living outside the State may not have PPS numbers and, therefore, it is not as easily done as the Department claims.

Mr. Michael Cunningham

Reference was made to increasing numbers and the previous presentation by the Simon Community. I work in the homeless unit and, since January, the number of new cases presenting has increased by 20% in the single men's section. That is likely to get much worse before it gets better. We are pretty swamped. We have good relationships with the voluntary sector. Most recently, we managed to access increased emergency accommodation after a great deal of lobbying on our behalf for a long time. A total of 45 additional new beds have come into the system over the past three weeks, which has made a difference, but this is an increasing problem and everyone needs to be aware of it.

Mr. Pat Lennon

With regard to the number of asylum seekers who might be homeless, the best place to check is the asylum seeker's unit in Gardiner Street, which is one of our services. It would have the up-to-date figures on that because homeless asylum seekers tend to turn up there.

Will Mr. Lennon ask the unit to forward the figures to the committee?

Mr. Pat Lennon

I will. We would like to thank everybody. We are heartened by the reception we have been given. We have been saying to the Department this is not the way to go. If it is not broken, do not fix it. We have done a good job over the past 40 years and the service should be left as it is. I thank the committee for its support.

On behalf of the committee. I thank Mr. Lennon and his colleagues for attending and giving of their time. We have had a good discussion.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.20 p.m and adjourned at 4.22 p.m. sine die.
Top
Share