JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 12 Nov 2008

National Fuel Poverty Strategy: Discussion.

Chairman

I welcome the following: Ms Hazlett, principal officer, Mr. Benny Swinburne, assistant principal officer, Ms Dearbhail Nic Giollamhichil, assistant principal officer, Department of Social and Family Affairs; Ms Sara White, deputy secretary general, and Mr. St. John O'Connor, principal officer, Department of Communications, Energy and natural Resources; Mr. Philip Nugent, principal officer, Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government; and Ms Ruth Buggy, programme executive, Sustainable Energy Ireland; Mr. Pat Fenlon, general manager, ESB Customer Supply; and Ms Tracy Kennedy, customer services manager, Bord Gáis Éireann.

I invite Ms White to brief the joint committee on progress made in developing a national fuel poverty strategy.

I draw attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but that same privilege does not apply to witnesses who appear before the committee. I remind members of the longstanding parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official by name, or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Ms Sara White

I thank the Chairman and committee members. The names read out by the Chairman are those of my colleagues, all members of the energy affordability group. The two lead Departments, together with our colleagues on the energy affordability group, appreciate the opportunity to meet with the committee to set out our collective strategic approach to delivery of all the dimensions of the energy affordability agenda and to answer the questions of committee members and, hopefully, have some useful dialogue on the way forward.

I note with great interest the deliberations of the committee on 25 June which resonate very much in terms of the need for collective sustained effort on the issue of energy affordability. That was largely an engagement with the Institute of Public Health, with which we have also had discussions.

The short slide presentation which follows, which we will share between colleagues, sets out briefly the key dimensions of the strategic approach to energy affordability by reference to the ongoing work and planned further initiatives by Departments, agencies and the State energy utilities. All the dimensions are complementary and share the single goal of systematically addressing the energy efficiency and affordability challenges for vulnerable members of society.

In an era of high and volatile global fuel prices, with the consequent challenges for Ireland in terms of energy costs, the interrelationships between energy policy, social policy and economic and competitiveness policy as well as environmental policy are ever more clear. The alignment of all these policy objectives requires structured engagement and proactive co-operation across Departments and agencies. It also requires the full involvement of all stakeholders at regional and local level. This point was raised at the committee discussion on 25 June.

The overall context for our work in the energy affordability area is, therefore, the whole of Government approach as articulated in the Energy Policy Framework 2007-2020, published in March 2007, and the National Action Plan for Social Inclusion 2007-2016. The forthcoming national energy efficiency action plan, being finalised in our Department in conjunction with collective engagement across Government, will underline the fundamental role of enhanced energy efficiency right across the economy and all consumers in reducing costs, reducing emissions, increasing security of supply and addressing the energy affordability issue. Energy efficiency requires behavioural change but fundamentally it is about structural change in the built environment.

The energy affordability work cuts across traditional Department and agency lines. The group aims to exemplify a fully integrated and cohesive approach, engaging with all the stakeholders as required including all energy suppliers, voluntary groups and the research community.

The work of the group to date has been characterised by open engagement, co-operation and ongoing exchange of ideas and experiences and by a genuine sense of everyone pulling together on this issue. The group has also undertaken a stocktaking exercise to chart all the current schemes and initiatives in place. Its work will continue over the coming months and years as existing schemes continue to be rolled out and as new initiatives appropriate to the challenge are developed.

The group is also taking account of developments in Northern Ireland — there is an all-island dimension to this which might be worth exploring — the UK generally and developments in EU energy policy where the impact of high energy prices on consumers, and the most vulnerable members of society in particular, has been highlighted by the Commission in recent communications on oil and gas prices.

We have noted the very clear message from the committee on the need for sustained collective work on this issue. We resonate fully with the view of the committee in that regard. The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Ryan, the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Hanafin, and the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, have met and discussed the issue and mandated the group to get on with the job. Following our discussion today we would be glad to come before the committee at regular intervals to discuss the issue further.

I shall move to the slide show presentation in which we set out the agenda. We will keep it short to allow for plenty of discussion. I have already mentioned the policy framework. Wearing my energy policy hat, one thing that characterises that framework is a commitment to cohesive cross-governmental agency engagement on all energy issues. Energy policy is pervasive across most policy areas if not all but particularly on the energy affordability issue. There is also the Government's ongoing commitment to the warmer homes scheme on which we will elaborate. Some of the initiatives might appear self-evident but it is important to publish a document that pulls together all the schemes, opportunities and initiatives that would help.

The group has been meeting since July. Its membership is as set out. In terms of membership we are open to bringing on board any and all agencies and experts who feel they should be members of the group. There is an open agenda around membership. Its remit is a co-ordinated and cohesive approach to Government policy actions on energy affordability. The overall rubric is reporting to the Cabinet committees on social inclusion and climate change and energy security. That is the framework within which we are operating. I will hand over to my colleague, Ms Catherine Hazlett, who heads up the office for social inclusion, to take us through the Department of Social and Family Affairs policy responses.

Ms Catherine Hazlett

I am delighted to appear before the committee on this issue. Following on from what Ms Sara White said, the policy responses of the Department of Social and Family Affairs are essentially to assist the social welfare recipients with heating costs, through their basic payments and through the household benefits package. The household benefits package provides help and assistance with fuel, electricity and gas allowances. The overall objective is to ensure the total weekly income, including the fuel allowance, is sufficient to meet the needs of the person on welfare. One of the basic issues behind that objective is that the Government's social inclusion strategy sets out clear targets on eliminating poverty. It is important that income levels stay on target and that progress continues as we work with colleagues to address the issues that arise for people with energy costs.

Members of the committee will be aware of the specific programmes of the Department such as the basic weekly social welfare payments, fuel allowance payments, free electricity and gas units and heating supplements under the supplementary welfare allowance scheme. They are the main programmes of the Department. However, the Department also funds the Money Advice and Budgeting Service. Some of my colleagues from the ESB and from Bord Gáis will mention the work they do with the Money Advice and Budgeting Service in helping people, mainly people on low incomes who run into difficulties in paying their utility bills.

Further details on the fuel allowance scheme are set out on the next slide. Deputies and Senators will be aware that it forms part of the weekly social welfare payment for the 32-week period it covers. It is for a particular season. It is not the intention that the scheme would meet a household's full heating costs. The basic social welfare payment and the additional allowances are intended to meet the cost of all a household's needs. Some details are given on the slide of the weekly allowance and what it is worth annually. Almost 300,000 recipients benefit from the allowance. The 2009 budget provides for the extension of the period for which the allowance is payable from 30 to 32 weeks and the allowance will be increased by €2 a week to €20. The cost of that improvement will be €30 million per year.

The household benefits package is directed mainly at pensioners, carers and recipients in receipt of some illness type payments. The components of it are the free electricity units and the free gas equivalent units. Some 360,000 households qualify for it and the cost of it, as set out on the slide, will be €170 million in 2008.

The next slide sets out the improvements in the free electricity units, of which I am sure Deputies and Senators will be aware. The free electricity units increased from 1,800 units to 2,400 units per annum from January 2007 and the value of the electricity allowance per household increased from €465 to €540 per annum. In regard to the units allowance, it should noted that from the point of view of the customer, he or she is protected from the increase in costs because the allowance is a particular allowance of units. However, from the point of view of the Department and the Government, the increases in the costs of energy are reflected in the cost of that scheme to the Department.

The free gas scheme works on an equivalent basis to the improvements in the free electricity units. A point to note about it is that from January 2008 the allowance was extended beyond those who use the national grid as their source of gas to include people who obtain their gas from sources other than the national grid such as bulk storage tanks.

The supplementary welfare allowance scheme provides for additional supplements for people in certain circumstances. This would arise in regard to energy where people have special heating costs, for example, by reason of a some form of disability, ill health or infirmity. A person convalescing at home following a hospital stay would be a typical example of where this can arise. Probably in the region of 3,500 people receive the supplement and the cost of it is approximately €2 million per annum.

As Deputies and Senators will be aware, and we in the Department are very conscious of this aspect, this provision is a much wider issue than the income support and the additional allowances. I understand that when the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and the Combat Poverty Agency appeared before the committee, they pointed out that the issue of the efficiency of the homes is also important. Many of the recipients of the allowance are older people, including many pensioners. Some of the information we have suggests that many people are living in houses that are old and may not reach the standard for maximum efficiency. In working with colleagues on this committee, I point out that one of the objectives of the Department is to work in an integrated way to ensure that the allowances and the provision made for this scheme can be used in an efficient way. That requires concerted action across a range of Departments. I will now hand over to my colleague, Mr. St. John O'Connor.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

I will address the issues of the policy responses of the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. As Ms Hazlett intimated, our responses focus on the structural elements, namely, the thermal efficiency of the dwellings. Our policy and the Government policy will continue to focus on the warmer homes scheme which targets energy efficiency initiatives at low income households or those in receipt of benefits.

A total of €5 million was provided for the scheme in 2008, representing a considerable increase from an initial allocation of €2.5 million. A further €5 million will be provided by the Exchequer in 2009, which will be complemented by additional funds from the ESB and BGE. The details of this are being finalised and an announcement on it will be forthcoming in the next few days. We anticipate that we will able to achieve interventions in more than 5,000 households this year and more than 19,500 households over the course of the life of the programme. That will continue to be the Department's main response to enhancing the thermal efficiency of dwellings. I will pass over to Mr. Nugent from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to speak on that Department's policy responses.

Mr. Philip Nugent

I am thankful for this opportunity to address the committee. Our policy responses mostly focus on the quality of housing conditions of vulnerable and disadvantaged households and the actions necessary to respond to those. Policy responses are intended to enhance energy efficiency in the wider housing stock and thereby contribute to tackling climate change and reducing emissions.

The first measure I wish to mention is the pilot central heating scheme, which is operated by Dublin City Council and Energy Action. This was announced in May 2007 by the then Minister with responsibility for housing. It involved approximately 150 houses being fitted with enhanced central heating systems funded by the Department and targeted at private households occupied by older people living alone or with another older person, mostly in Ballyfermot, Whitehall and Crumlin. The scheme provides for the installation of central heating systems, associated insulation works, smoke alarms, energy advice and energy audits. It is being funded under the framework of the housing aid for older people scheme, with the Department recouping 80% of the cost to Dublin City Council and Dublin City Council funding the remaining 20% of the cost.

Energy Action has provided a detailed analysis of the levels of insulation, heat loss and efficiency of the households in advance of the works being carried out. We are working from Energy Action's database on that. This process is nearing completion and the majority of works have been carried out. An independent assessment of the scheme has been nearly completed by the Centre for Housing Research and we should have it shortly.

This is part of the wider housing aid for older people's scheme, which is administered by the local authorities. It assists older people living in poorer housing conditions to have necessary repairs or improvement works carried out. It funds insulation works, fitting of central heating systems, double glazing and other such works. This was introduced last year as part of the revised framework of adaptation grants for older people and people with disabilities. The schemes have been very successful since they were launched in November last year. The uptake of them has been much higher than previously. Funding for the scheme in 2008 amounted to approximately €71 million with an additional €8.6 million recently allocated to most local authorities that had faced increased levels of demand this year. Despite the overall budgetary and fiscal position next year we have managed to secure an 8% increase for funding for the grant schemes next year.

Senator Nicky McFadden

Did Mr. Nugent say 9%?

Mr. Philip Nugent

No, an 8% increase for next year. We are hopeful that even more households can benefit from the scheme.

On the matter of modernising building and energy standards of the private housing stock, we are about to start a house conditions survey of the local authority stock in 2009. This will form part of the overall strategy for modernising the building and energy standards of the public housing stock, which at approximately 140,000 units represents a sizeable proportion of the overall housing stock.

Some funding will also be made available next year for a number of retrofitting projects under the regeneration programmes. There will be some retrofitting of local authority housing next year. We will also be undertaking some pilot projects towards achieving zero carbon emissions. That issue is not strictly related to fuel poverty but it is something we will be doing next year to try to develop local authority or public housing with lower energy requirements. Standards are also being worked on for the private rented sector which will be introduced in the coming months and there will be additional requirements in regard to the central heating for private rented units.

Mr. Pat Fenlon

I will cover a few short points on behalf of the ESB. I want to talk about three areas: how we help customers, energy efficiency and commitments we have in our customer charter. As regards customers, we have a long history of working closely with help agencies and various bodies, in particular the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and MABS. We have had a mutually beneficial relationship with them over the years in that regard. Where customers are in genuine difficulty with payments, we always encourage them to contact us because we have flexible arrangements which take account of their needs. We always try to reach an agreement with customers, which we find is the best solution in everyone's interest. If necessary and the situation is appropriate, we provide pre-payment meters, which some customers find is a better way of managing their financial situation. We administer the free electricity allowance in conjunction with, and on behalf of, the Department of Social and Family Affairs.

As regards energy efficiency, we are working closely with SEI, in particular on the warm homes scheme, which Mr. St. John O'Connor has already mentioned. We expect to increase our support in that and hope it will be finalised in the next couple of days. We also have a long history, since the early 1990s, in the area of energy efficiency. We provide advice and support to all our customers — domestic, industrial and commercial. That is particularly relevant in the current climate where, apart from economic issues, we are all facing climate change issues.

We have a customer charter which contains published commitments, particularly concerning vulnerable customers. I want to draw the committee's attention to a few points in this regard. One concerns vulnerable customers who may have particular needs for medical equipment. They can register with us so that we can take whatever steps are necessary to ensure they do not have a supply interruption. Second, if a customer is over 66 years of age, we will not disconnect them over the winter months between November and March, where they register with us. Customers in receipt of the free electricity allowance are automatically registered, which covers the bulk of them. We encourage anybody who needs to register with us to do so.

Ms Tracy Kennedy

In addition to what the ESB has just outlined about providing customers with support mechanisms for fuel affordability, Bord Gáis undertakes similar activity. The code of practice and special services register ensure we have a moratorium on disconnections for the majority of the winter period for people who fall into a vulnerable category. This also applies to the overall customer base in December to ensure nobody is left in a situation whereby they are without gas, particularly at the most difficult time of winter. We also occupy the energy advice space and are active there in the context of our customer base. We have been communicating with customers around energy advice and energy saving tips initiatives through our "At home" bill insert. We have partnered with the power-of-one campaign and are currently running a corporate advertisement called "Turn down one degree". We have been actively advising customers how they should prepare for winter and the things they should be working towards to ensure they will have a warm and comfortable winter this year.

We are very strong on customer-centred policy, particularly in facilitating payment terms and conditions. We work closely with the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and MABS, meeting with them formally on a quarterly basis. We also have ongoing daily contact to ensure we provide the right level of supports. The type of support mechanisms we put in place to help the SVP and MABS concern repayment terms, installation of pre-payment metering, discounts and/or complete lock and unlock charges, and the installation costs themselves. In the case of financial hardship and on the basis of an intervention by the Society of St. Vincent de Paul or MABS, we fully support the installation of pre-payment metering free of charge. We are very active in that respect.

With regard to the Department of Social and Family Affairs, we fully support the gas allowance scheme. The policy of Bord Gáis includes clear customer communication and education. We are clear about our tariffs and provide tariff calculators — both on the web and by mail — so people can understand their consumption levels. We are adopting a policy of clear communication and helpful advice to educate customers as to how they can control their own fuel costs.

Ms Ruth Buggy

Funding of €2 million provided by the Department of Social and Family Affairs delivered a whole house research project in Waterford city and county. We delivered high efficiency central heating and full insulation measures as appropriate for the house. Following the interventions, we surveyed householders to seek their opinions on the differences they found over the year. They reported a 10% decrease in their energy costs. This was over a 12 to 18-month period during which there were large increases in energy prices. The new heating system will provide greater levels of comfort, so some of the benefits were taken up with that extra comfort. Some 35% of them reported an improvement in their health over that one-year period, and a 71% reduction in problems associated with the house, such as draughts and condensation.

We also undertook an energy rating of the house before and after the interventions. From this data, the energy costs would have dropped on average by about 55% over that period. That is quite different from what they reported in their spend, which is why I explained what the differences would have been.

We are also undertaking projects in Cork and Donegal involving about 600 households, which will entail an assessment of the warmer homes scheme. It concerns insulation measures only. It is pre and post, rural and urban, in Cork and Donegal, which should give us a more comprehensive research report due out just before Christmas. Both these reports will be presented to the interdepartmental group.

Mr. St. John O’Connor

The ESRI has recently published a working paper on this issue. It was published this week on its website. The institute has given a presentation to the group, which has an opportunity to feed into that paper. That should be finalised and published after Christmas as a full document.

I will conclude by talking about the future initiatives of the interdepartmental group. The group will continue to meet regularly to ensure that delivery mechanisms are correctly aligned through all the different Departments, agencies and utilities that have a role to play. The group will also play a key role in refreshing the extremely successful Stay Well, Stay Warm booklet, to ensure full availability on information is available to those who need it most. Likewise, we are keen on producing a website to complement that booklet. It will allow people to search for information in an easy manner. The group will also play an active role in providing feedback to the internal review of the warmer homes scheme that is currently ongoing. The review will assess future direction and delivery mechanisms of the scheme, among other matters.

It is also appropriate to mention the forthcoming publication of the national energy efficiency action plan. We will be using that as a vehicle for addressing the issue as part of our efforts to address energy efficiency generally. As I mentioned not so long ago to the Committee on Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, one such action contained within the plan is an energy efficiency obligation scheme, which we are examining. It would confer an obligation on suppliers to deliver energy efficiency measures and actions in households. Low-income households would be part of that. A similar scheme operates in Northern Ireland and in England. In the North, 80% of energy efficiency interventions are targeted at low-income households, whereas in England it is about 50%.

That concludes the presentation, although I think Ms Sara White would like to say a few words to sum up.

Ms Sara White

I beg your indulgence for one minute, Chairman. I ask committee members to note that the Commission for Energy Regulation is very much a part, and an active member, of the group. Unfortunately, its representatives were unable to attend this morning's meeting. However, they do have a statutory role concerning specific vulnerabilities including, for example, people who cannot have their electricity turned off at any point. Security of supply is absolutely critical for people who are ill or disabled. In addition, the regulator is working with State utilities in partnership with all of us. We will see a clear and proactive role played by the Commission for Energy Regulation as we move this agenda forward.

Deputy Olwyn Enright

I welcome the ladies and gentlemen and thank them for coming in today.

I was interested in the comment that there might be an all-island dimension which would be worth exploring. All I can say is I do not think our counterparts in Northern Ireland would be too anxious to step backwards by having an all-island dimension because they are a long way ahead of us in terms of what they have achieved to date by virtue of having a strategy in place, if nothing else. We are very much playing catch-up.

In saying that, I welcome the fact the group was finally set up on 11 July last after many calls to establish an interdepartmental group and that the relevant utilities are on board as well because nothing has been achieved in quite a long time in addressing the issues in a co-ordinated way. There have been increases in benefits such as the fuel allowances and there have been programmes under the Departments of Communications, Energy and National Resources and the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, but nothing has been co-ordinated. Each time we try to raise these issues through any of the three Departments we have been told, through parliamentary questions, that they are the responsibility of another Department. I hope, at least, the fact that this group is in place will see some changes in that regard. However, I would be concerned about the delivery from the group. The future initiatives do not instil me with a great deal of confidence.

It is important that we, in the committee, point out the facts on lower income households in particular. The proportion of the budget such households must spend on heating their homes is far in excess of what families that have larger incomes spend. Straight away, they are at an enormous disadvantage in terms of what they have left in disposable income. That has not been addressed adequately in what was discussed today.

The office for social inclusion of the Department of Social and Family Affairs spoke about the fuel allowance increases and the budget increases. The average rate of social welfare increase in the budget is between 3% and 3.5%. If one compares that with the increases sanctioned in the past six months alone for utilities, one can see how difficult it will be for those families to make their payments.

I accept, to be fair, what has been said by both the ESB and Bord Gáis about dealing and working with people. I get many people coming to me with all sorts of difficulties but I rarely get somebody coming to me who has been cut off from their supplies. They seem to be able to get it sorted out, and it is important to make that point.

On housing aid for older people, I do not know that they are working in the same area as I am. Offaly County Council and Laois County Council are still working on applications from 2006 and 2007, and there are applications arriving day in, day out. I am sure it is the same in every other local authority around the country. They are not accepting applications at present. The applications of anyone I came across which were submitted in late 2007 or early 2008 will not be looked at until 2009. That is the reality being faced by people, and they speak of there being a scheme.

I refer to the words used in terms of regeneration programmes. There are no specifics. Where will those regeneration programmes be? Who will be allowed avail of them? Will they be available in every local authority area around the country?

The central heating initiative was very successful. However, I cannot understand that when the local authority sent out officials to do this work — 97% of houses in Offaly were done — money was not given at the same time to install insulation in those local authority houses. The same people must go back to those houses and do it again. That is an utter waste of time. If one was getting someone in to one's own house to do it, one would do the two jobs together.

Often it has been commented to us in debates on this in the Dáil and elsewhere that there is no point in giving more in the fuel allowance because it is going out the window and that is the responsibility of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. It is a catch-22, but it is still happening.

In terms of their new programmes coming on stream, will there be a specific programme to ensure every local authority house is fully insulated and done in the way the central heating programme was rolled out, and when will that be fully completed?

In the budget there was a €20 million increase for the home energy saving scheme, which is for private houses. Some €5 million has been allocated to the warmer homes scheme, which is for houses of people on lower incomes, which will be backed up by the ESB and Bord Gáis. It seems typical that the scheme for people who are less well off is the one on which the Department will look for support from utilities whereas the scheme for people who are already able to afford to do something to their houses will get €20 million from the State. It would have made more sense for it to be the other way around because the less well off are the ones who are least likely to do it because they cannot afford it. What level of funding will be given to the warmer homes scheme mentioned in the presentation by the ESB and Bord Gáis?

While one can argue about any payment made by the Department of Social and Family Affairs, the increase in the fuel allowance will not go any way towards really addressing the problem. A second issue, which has been raised on many occasions, is the way the fuel allowance is paid. There are many people who rely on oil-fired central heating who are unable to purchase oil because of the cost of getting their tank filled or half-filled. Nobody will make a delivery of €20 or €30, or €50 worth of oil. It is an administrative issue but it should not be too difficult. Is there a way of allowing those people the option of getting the fuel allowance in two lump sums rather than every week? That causes immense difficulty, particularly when the oil price is extremely high. There have been changes made in the way the early child care supplement has been paid and I do not see why there cannot be changes made in the way the fuel allowance is paid as well.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I am a little concerned because the division bells will ring shortly. In that case, I take it we will suspend and return. It is a little unsatisfactory but apologies in advance if we must leave.

I welcome all our visitors and thank them for their presentation. I acknowledge the important sympathetic attitude adopted by both the ESB and Bord Gáis towards people who find themselves in difficulties in meeting their utility bills. In my experience, both companies are generally very sympathetic. In my experience, like that of Deputy Enright, it is a rare occurrence that somebody who has fallen on hard times has his or her supply cut off. That is a welcome attitude that both companies adopt.

On the interdepartmental group generally, today's presentations are about what the Departments are doing individually and we would be aware of much of that already. It may be my fault, but I did not get any sense of a strategic approach to this issue. The fact that individual Departments made presentations today indicated that they were reporting on what they are doing individually. The sum of the parts must be greater than that if they are on an interdepartmental group. I would be much more assured if there was some kind of reporting on what the group's finding, for instance, its main findings, the scale of the problem it is addressing, its terms of reference, the number of meetings it has had and who, if anybody, is driving this initiative at a political level. I do not get any sense of that at all other than a collection of Departments and agencies that happens to come together. I am not sure what they are achieving by doing that and there does not seem to be any net gain or benefit from them working in a group. What I would like to hear is whether there is any strategic objective set and whether it is the group's intention to draw up a strategy to tackle the issue of fuel poverty because that is what most of us were looking for. I get no sense of that at all from them. As I say, that might be my fault or a fault with the presentation. Can they assure us they are taking a strategic approach to this?

Specifically, I would like them to tell us who is driving this politically. It is unfair of us to blame any of them, as civil servants, in this because in many cases it comes down to funding, which is a political issue. I am interested in discovering if anyone is enthusiastically involved in driving this group and ensuring that we have a strategy in place at political level.

It was stated that the interdepartmental group reports to the Cabinet sub-committee on social inclusion. It emerged in the Dáil yesterday that this sub-committee has not met since last February. What reporting mechanisms are in place and what kind of interaction does the interdepartmental group have with Ministers and the Cabinet sub-committee?

The pilot scheme relating to central heating which was put in place in Whitehall in my constituency was extremely successful and popular. The difficulty was that only 150 people were catered for under the scheme. At what point will a decision be made in respect of extending the scheme? Is it the intention to roll it out nationwide or will it remain on a pilot basis? I urge our guests to try to ensure that the scheme is extended.

The grant schemes introduced at the beginning of the year by local authorities are extremely popular. However, the Government completely underestimated both the extent of the problem of fuel poverty and the work that must be done in respect of it. In the Dublin City Council area, there are huge waiting lists for the grant scheme. The council does not have funding to allow it appoint extra staff to process applications. As a result, the only applications being dealt with are those which relate to medical emergencies. This means that, regardless of their age, people who need to replace their windows but cannot afford to do so and those who must install central heating systems but who never had them before are still on the waiting list. I was involved in dealing with a case in Galway during the summer and I was informed that there was no possibility of any new staff being taken on this year because all of the allocated funding had been spent. This is a worthwhile scheme but it is completely underfunded.

In the context of ensuring greater energy efficiency, those on low incomes and others require advice regarding the condition of their homes in the context of such energy efficiency. People want to know what they must do in respect of draught exclusion, insulation and heating systems. From where can these people obtain advice in that regard? Is it possible to contact an agency or a private company and have them carry out a survey and assessment of one's home? That is what most people are seeking. They know they should be doing something in this regard and that their energy bills are increasing, sometimes as a result of heat loss. From where can these individuals obtain independent and reliable advice on what they should do with their homes? I am not aware of any service that might be available in this regard but perhaps our guests can provide information to the contrary.

I must admit that I have never seen the booklet Stay Well, Stay Warm. Deputy O'Connor and I both do a hell of an amount of constituency work and neither of us has ever come across that booklet.

Chairman

I apologise for intervening but we must suspend proceedings in order that members may attend in the Dáil for a vote.

Sitting suspended at 11.54 a.m. and resumed at 12.14 p.m.

Deputy Charlie O’Connor

I wish to be associated with the warm welcome extended to all the groups. The meeting is important and there is great interest in the issue at committee level. Reference was made to the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, the Combat Poverty Agency and the Money Advice and Budgeting Service. Perhaps we should have a meeting with all those groups at one time rather than parallel to each other. That is just an idea but it may make for a better discussion.

I bring my own experiences to politics. I came from a generation where I remember people put coats on the bed to keep warm. I do not want to show my age but I come from that Dublin generation and I have lived all my life in Crumlin and Tallaght. Those are great areas and I love them. At the same time one has to admit that in terms of the issues we are talking about this morning areas like those present challenges. Deputy Shortall referred to Ballymun and Deputy Byrne will refer to Crumlin and Drimnagh, areas that have similar problems, and it is important we acknowledge that. I have always tried to bring the ethos of social inclusion into my politics. It is important we do that and we should not be afraid to do it.

I do not wish to be patronising but the ESB and Bord Gáis should know that what they do is appreciated. I could easily say that it was due to my influence ringing them to get my problems sorted out but I know all colleagues do that. At a time when we are concerned about the attitude of other organisations — I do not want to attack the banks — it is right that one would look in a caring way at the challenges people face. One might argue that at some point one has to balance the books but it is good business and it is right that we look after people. We should be seen to respond to people's genuine concerns. I concur with the point made by Deputies Enright and Shortall. I have always found the organisations responsive and it is right that people do not get cut off. If the case was otherwise, I would have a lot more to say. I compliment the companies in that regard.

Deputy Enright referred also to the all-Ireland dimension. She made a point about progress, which I accept is fair. I am a member of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. I enjoy hugely the work of that body. Through it, one makes contact with politicians from these islands. I thank God for the progress in the situation in the North and while I accept challenges remain, generally speaking the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly has been looking at other matters. We share a common interest in energy poverty and energy delivery and it is important we understand the need to work together in that regard. Despite all the progress in relations between both parts of the island many things still remain to be done. The remit of this morning's meeting falls within that category. I hope the groups around the table will look at that in a positive way.

Deputy Shortall spoke about the Stay Well, Stay Warm booklet. I will not repeat what she said except to say it is always important to consider ways to get information to people and if there is an information deficit we should deal with it. Whatever our backgrounds we all need advice on heating our homes. I am always keen to communicate with people. I suggest to the Chairman that we make a note of that point, not in order to criticise anybody or get at them but because people always need information, especially when there are challenges in terms of energy and energy poverty.

I sometimes regret I will not be around in 50 years' time because there are many things I would like to see develop. Strangely enough, energy is one of them. I often wonder who will be Taoiseach in 30 or 40 years but, where energy is concerned, the question is much more serious. There have been many changes in the energy sector in my lifetime. I was listening to the US President-elect, Mr. Obama, referring to the changes a 106-year-old woman has seen. In my life to date, which has been shorter, I have seen changes in energy policy and delivery. Have the delegates views on how we are to develop in the coming years, particularly in the shorter term, with regard to energy availability? I refer in particular to energy poverty and to those who do not have the opportunity to respond in the way others do. At a time when all boats are rising, one must remember the little boats. One must remember them all the more when all boats are struggling. My question is very relevant to the subject of this meeting.

I wish all the representatives well. It is important that we deal with this vital issue. I agree with Deputy Shortall that everybody must understand the need for joined-up thinking. I would hate to believe different organisations are operating independently of each other such that none knows what is happening in the centre. I suspect all the representatives have a role to play in this regard. This has been a good meeting.

Deputy Joe Carey

I welcome the officials. They face a major task and we have a lot of catching up to do to provide affordable energy. Other jurisdictions have been trying to provide lower-price energy and more efficient homes. Have the delegates liaised with them or considered their templates in this regard? Housing aid for the elderly is just not functioning in my constituency of Clare. The local authority is simply not accepting any more applications. The budget has been spent and there seems to be no light at the end of the tunnel because of the dwindling public finances. We need to prioritise funding for the elderly.

We have heard presentations from groups such as the Combat Poverty Agency and they stated older people are turning down the temperatures on the heating systems in their homes, thereby putting their lives at risk.

It is well and good to have an inter-agency approach but it is important that the interdepartmental group, which was established in July, has a strategic approach such that the roles of all the participants are clearly defined and channelled into one collective effort. While the delegates all have different approaches, I do not believe there is a collective movement to address this issue. I would like more bonds between the various parties in order that the goal can be achieved.

The most effective way of getting the message across nowadays is through television. Short, sharp messages on how to manage fuel consumption at home are better than a booklet.

Senator Nicky McFadden

I warmly welcome the fact that the Departments have got together eventually. I ask that a strategy be forthcoming.

Mr. Philip Nugent spoke about modernising building and energy standards for public housing and the fact that we have 140,000 local authority houses. He stated some funding will be available. This is somewhat vague. Can he state what he means by this? If the pilot scheme for 150 houses cost so much, how can it be extended throughout the country? Is it Government policy to do so?

I was impressed with Ms Ruth Buggy's point that savings of 55% could be made. This is tremendous and is to be welcomed warmly. The joined-up thinking between her organisation and the others is noteworthy in this regard.

I recently visited a new local authority development in Kinnegad. Do the delegates try to influence the local authorities in respect of such new developments? Is it part of their plan?

On the issue of future initiatives, 16° Celsius is the temperature an elderly person's home should be in order for them not to develop hypothermia, pneumonia, flus or colds. Admissions to hospital for such conditions eventually cost the State a lot of money.

On the booklet on staying warm and well, are people encouraged to wear more clothes, including woolly jumpers, and to take other basic steps such as having hot drinks and eating regularly? I have never seen the booklet. When and how is it distributed? Is it widely available?

I join my colleagues in commending the ESB and Bord Gáis on the way they treat people. Are there more cost increases proposed? The monumental increases in the prices of the products of both organisations this year alone are the reason it is so expensive for people to heat their homes. The allowance of €18 is a pittance. A bag of coal and five bales of briquettes cost well over €30, yet we are giving people €18. A €2 increase is a pittance. I am sorry to have to say the very cold September we have had is such that the extension to 30 weeks is dismal. We are not really addressing the issue because older people are still cold.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

Given the increases in the cost of electricity and gas, energy prices have been on everybody's lips in recent months. Those on very low incomes, particularly the elderly, are most affected. In the house of my mother, who is 88 and quite frail, the heating is on night and day. My family feels this is very important to her because, no matter what clothing she wears, she always seems to be cold.

Dublin City Council puts on the heating in its senior citizens' flat complexes at 7 a.m. and turns it off at 11 p.m. Many elderly people will not use another form of heating during the night if they have to get up. This means many of them must sit in cold rooms at night. The local authority should address this. The local authority refers to the cost but this should not be a factor if people are to be looked after properly. The new complexes the local authority is building are top of the range but the fact that the local authority has decided to turn off the heating at 11 p.m. is a considerable disadvantage to most elderly people living therein.

One of my main preoccupations in life is the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, with which I was involved for many years. I am aware of the great strain on the society every year, particularly around Christmas, as it tries to ensure families, particularly the elderly, are safe and warm.

Willie Bermingham's ALONE organisation is prevalent in the Dublin South-Central constituency. Those in ALONE's comfortable accommodation are treated with the height of respect. I know of cases, however, where people have had to go to ALONE for extra money for heating which is a serious issue.

The Waterford pilot project, the warmer homes initiative, was based on remedial work to the energy efficiency of the whole house. Are there plans to roll out the project in other areas? If so, will it entail local authorities taking it on or be run by a separate organisation?

Ms Sara White

Members have asked questioned the point of the interdepartmental group. There is consensus that such a collective endeavour is needed to ensure joined-up thinking, as Deputy Charlie O'Connor called it, on the fuel poverty issue. It is a characteristic of the approaches taken by other jurisdictions and Northern Ireland. Due to the multifaceted nature of energy affordability, one key point is the need for joined-up action. It sounds like a truism but is often the only way to make things happen. The group has not been set up for the sake of doing it; it is approaching the issue with a purpose.

Deputy Shortall, as well as other members, asked if the political will is behind this group. Absolutely.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

From whom?

Ms Sara White

From the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Mary Hanafin. They have spoken on the issue on several occasions and have mandated me and Ms Hazlett to co-lead the group and bring it together. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy John Gormley, also has a key role. There is strong political support for the group to get on with it, so to speak. This has been reflected in answers to parliamentary questions.

Deputy Olwyn Enright

I submitted a freedom of information request, of which the delegation must be aware, but there was nothing in the reply about ministerial input. Have the Ministers involved just told the group to examine the issue or do they communicate with the group to put the push on to achieve a strategy with targets, dates and costings?

Ms Sara White

I was not aware of a freedom of information request from the Deputy.

Deputy Olwyn Enright

I got the answers to my request but there was no reference to ministerial input.

Ms Sara White

The committee made the point in June that Ministers should chair this group. I do not believe the Ministers need to exhort the group to get on with its work. It has received that message.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Does the group have terms of reference?

Ms Sara White

No, specific terms of reference have not been written down. We have talked about the group's purpose. Take the Northern Ireland strategy from 2004 or other strategies in other jurisdictions, the key elements are the same. These include income and poverty issues, structural interventions to address housing thermal efficiencies and communicating the availability of schemes. While the group works on these, it is also open to examining all other dimensions that could bring a new perspective to it that may be missing.

Deputy Enright's point about timeframes is valid. Several schemes on the social welfare side are ongoing. While I am not a particular expert on the social welfare side, our fuel allowance system has been working longer and better than that of the UK or Northern Ireland.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

With all due respect, what we need to know is the extent to which the fuel allowance is meeting the fuel needs of its recipients. It is difficult to identify what to target in this respect because we do not know the scale of the problem.

Ms Sara White

Regarding the scale of the problem, it depends on how it is measured. If one defines it——

Deputy Róisín Shortall

How is it being measured?

Ms Sara White

The best definition, which is from the action plan on social inclusion, is the ability of people to have a warm home. The reasons they cannot are due to income or structural inefficiencies in the home, which can be tied to income. It does not necessarily have to be a poor person. It might be someone who is quite well-off but never has improved the heat efficiency of his or her home and, if elderly could run into problems.

Several research commentators define it as someone who spends more than 10% of their income on home-heating fuel. This is the measure used in Northern Ireland. That is not, however, enough of a scope. It must include the root of the problem — the energy efficiency of the home, such as insulation.

We would all prefer if every house was suitably centrally heated, insulated so that people——

Deputy Róisín Shortall

How many houses are there?

Ms Ruth Buggy

Taking the 2001 ESRI report on housing quality, we have taken estimates that in the lowest income quartile it comes to approximately 65,000 houses still needing insulation measures installed.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

It would be helpful if we had that kind of data, so that we would know something about the extent of the problem. This would allow a strategy to be developed to tackle the problem.

Ms Sara White

We can give the committee all the data involved from all the agencies involved. Sustainable Energy Ireland, the Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Social and Family Affairs have considerable data on the numbers of houses concerned.

The strategy for tackling the problem will come back to the short-term palliative measures. However, these are not the answer to the fundamental problem. The main answer is structural intervention to make people's homes comfortable and warm.

That is my belief but it is resonated in every research and analysis into this area. In the UK great commitments were made to eliminate fuel poverty by 2010, and resonated in the Northern Ireland strategy. However, in an era of rising global energy prices, the problem is being moved if it is defined by the amount of money spent on energy. Every country is having a problem with energy costs. Rising energy prices push more people into a vulnerable category.

I am not defensive about having an interdepartmental group on fuel poverty. It is the right approach. The group's approach is not an Ivy Day in the Committee Room one, getting bogged down on procedure. Instead it aims to ensure a collective view of all the pieces in the issue.

One could say it is all made up of individual schemes, efforts or initiatives such as the obligation scheme, which the committee might want to touch on again. However, that is ultimately the reality. Several interventions are under way across various Departments. We appreciate the work being done by the State energy companies and the kind words said in that regard — and rightly so. The State energy companies demonstrate corporate and social responsibility here, which is a testament to their standing and the job they do.

We look at thermal energy and the palliative challenge that requires provision of assistance where people cannot manage. Members have mentioned the communication issue and Ms Buggy will pick up on the question of the booklet. One of the matters the group will oversee, very quickly, is the collation of all that, updating and re-disseminating facts on where to go to get advice and what to do as well as questions on what is available to redress the problem or get help. It is important to communicate and disseminate answers through the support system.

On initiatives, the energy efficiency obligation proposition is being looked at, not just because this is being done everywhere else. There is one in Britain and in Northern Ireland. Lessons are to be learned on how it is being done and some fundamental questions are being asked by some commentators in the UK on whether theirs is the right way to go. Nonetheless, it is a way of looking, perhaps, beyond the State energy companies to independent suppliers, who admittedly are not very visible in the domestic market right now. However, there is a role for independent supply to make an impact within this base. I shall let my colleagues take over, but I shall be happy to return to some of those themes if the members want.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

What about the other questions?

Ms Sara White

We were going to do it on a group basis. Perhaps I can pass over to Ms Catherine Hazlett and some of her colleagues on some of these matters.

Ms Catherine Hazlett

I will pick up on some of the points Ms White made. First, there was the issue of political leadership. The Ministers, Deputies Eamon Ryan and Mary Hanafin, have met. Deputy Hanafin, as Minister for Social and Family Affairs, has a keen interest in the development of the interdepartmental strategic approach on this issue. There are plenty of definitions, but the working definition of what fuel poverty might be illustrates the two points to be addressed, namely, income support and the structural issue. The term, "fuel poverty", has been described as an inability to afford adequate warmth in the home — or an inability to achieve adequate warmth because of the energy inefficiency of the home. In terms of the working definition, therefore, there are two pieces to this issue, as well as a myriad of sub-themes.

The role of the social welfare system is primarily to provide the income support, including the fuel allowances. The objective is to ensure income is adequate to meet all of the needs, including the ability to adequately heat the home.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Is that being done?

Ms Catherine Hazlett

Maintaining the gains made in recent years is central to the Government's social inclusion strategy. The Deputy will be aware of the poverty targets in that regard, so the whole issue of maintaining the social welfare payments and ensuring they meet people's needs is an objective of the social inclusion strategy.

Deputies have raised the issue of increases in fuel costs vis-à-vis increases in social welfare payments. Looking at the social welfare rates, it is certainly the case since 2001 that they have increased substantially, and are ahead of the overall inflation rate. It is the case that——

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Nobody is expecting Ms Hazlett to give political answers, so can she be objective?

Ms Catherine Hazlett

This information was given in response to parliamentary questions, so it is in that context that I am giving it — and I thank the Deputy.

Chairman

One second please. I remind members that a civil servant, member of the Permanent Defence Force or of the Garda Síochána, while giving evidence to an Oireachtas committee, may not express an opinion on the merits of any Government policy or policy objective. Please continue.

Ms Catherine Hazlett

Thank you, Chairman. Moving on from that, I want——

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I did not hear that. I have no idea what the Chairman said. Anyway, it does not matter.

Ms Catherine Hazlett

There are two issues here. As regards the Government's national action plan for social inclusion and the issue of the adequacy of payments, the role of social welfare is to provide the supports through the weekly payments as well as programmes such as the fuel allowance scheme and the household benefits package. Improvements have been made, but as Deputies will be aware, their extent is a matter for Government and of Government policy.

Deputy Enright raised the issue of how the fuel allowance is paid, particularly when people want to get oil in, and my colleague, Mr. Swinburne, has some information that might be helpful in that regard.

Mr. Benny Swinburne

This issue has been looked at in the Department from time to time. It was looked at in a review of the fuel allowance scheme several years ago. A survey was carried out at the time which found the majority of people preferred the weekly payment. Among the issues looked at by that review was the fact that if the fuel allowance were to be paid in a lump sum, it might not be used for the purpose of buying fuel, and this might result in hardship at a later stage. There was also the question as to whether it should be paid in arrears or in advance. Where people need support, payment in arrears is not the way to go. On the other hand, if it is paid in advance, persons who might have ceased to draw social welfare payments would run the risk of being overpaid. It was therefore decided to stay with the weekly payment method for the moment, but this is still under review.

Deputy Joe Carey

Is it envisaged there will be an option?

Deputy Róisín Shortall

There are many questions. Will they be responded to?

Deputy Olwyn Enright

I wanted to address questions to Ms White, but I was going to wait to the end.

Ms Sara White

If members have further questions, they can, perhaps lets us know. As regards the fuel question, the position is as outlined, and we can have a discussion on it.

Senator Nicky McFadden

I had addressed specific questions as well, to Ms Buggy and——

Ms Sara White

In fairness, since there is a multiplicity of officials who can answer, perhaps members will just bear with us. Mr. Nugent was going to pick up on the environment points — and Ms Buggy will address all those issues of concern to the Senator.

Mr. Philip Nugent

I will pick up on the housing aspects and, perhaps, talk about the grants generally. That might not satisfy the members' needs, but at least it will address the questions.

I shall first of all pick up on the questions from Deputy Enright and Senator McFadden. Just to clarify, when I talk about a survey of the condition of the public housing stock, the figure of 140,000 includes the voluntary sector as well, which is about 25,000. When I talk about funding under the regeneration heading being made available for retrofitting of some public housing next year, that is entirely separate to the survey of the public housing stock — so I am not talking about a small amount of funding. Across 140,000 houses it will be more focused than that. At this stage I cannot say how much funding will be available because we are only at the abridged Estimate stage. However, it will be within the €190 million overall block of funding for regeneration, less than €10 million, I imagine.

On the grants, we are aware there have been serious issues with the operation of the schemes this year. I was before the Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government a couple of months ago on this issue. The introduction of the revised suite of grants and the advertising surrounding those seems to have given rise to an enormous increase in demand for the schemes this year, in tandem with the increased numbers of out of work builders putting leaflets through doors. Demand has ballooned this year and funding has not been adequate to meet it. We had €71 million for the various schemes at the beginning of the year and received a supplement of €8.6 million in the last couple of weeks. I hope it will go some way to removing the backlog. I appreciate that there still some applications that are being processed under the old scheme but these should be out of the system very soon.

The situation in 2009 should be better, but the 8% increase will probably not be sufficient to meet demand. The funds made available this year also included money for applications under the old scheme which was discontinued on 1 August and replaced by the scheme of housing aid for older people. The proportion of the funding taken up by the SHIE next year will be lower than it was this year.

Deputy Joe Carey

The scheme of housing aid for older people is a HSE scheme.

Mr. Philip Nugent

Correct.

Deputy Joe Carey

Will the Department of Social and Family Affairs have access to that funding?

Mr. Philip Nugent

Yes.

Deputy Joe Carey

The budget will, therefore, increase.

Mr. Philip Nugent

It will. There was about €19 million last year allocated for the SHIE. There will still be some residual applications will have to be processed. The HSE estimates that there is an 18 month backlog in some areas. The proportion of funding for the old scheme will be significantly lower.

Deputy Olwyn Enright

The two categories come in under the new scheme, whereas previously people were eligible under separate schemes. It does not really amount to anything extra.

Mr. Philip Enright

There is also an overall increase of about 8%. With the local authorities, we have to operate within budgetary constraints.

It is unlikely that the pilot scheme will continue next year. A decision has not been taken, but given the constraints on resources and the level of demand for supports under the HAOP, it will not be possible to continue the pilot scheme. Applicants in the areas mentioned, namely, Whitehall, Crumlin and Ballyfermot, will have to apply under the HAOP in the same way as other households across the country.

Deputy Carey mentioned the need to prioritise funding for older and disadvantaged persons. That is exactly what we will be doing next year and what we try to do generally. The overall housing budget next year will be down by about 4%, across social and affordable housing. We have tried to shape the provision in such a way that the impact on the social housing side will be minimal. The overall reduction on the social housing side will be 1.7% on the 2008 allocation. We are focusing on specific items such as supports for older people under the various grant schemes, for which the funding will increase by about 8%. Homeless person supports will also increase. Therefore, we are prioritising the vulnerable and the disadvantaged.

Revised building standards, higher energy efficiency standards and insulation standards are coming into force in January. These will alleviate the situation and represent one of the more strategic approaches. It is a political commitment; the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the Minister of State with responsibility for housing are committed to this.

Ms Ruth Buggy

There is an SEI hotline to obtain energy advice available to all householders. We also have a heating consultancy and insulation advice service available. If householders have a specific inquiry, they can call us and we will get back to them within one or two days with advice. In addition, we have a collection of booklets that are freely available, including a detailed guide to home heating, insulation and renewable energy and on how to make one's home more sustainable.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Where are they available?

Ms Ruth Buggy

Anybody can call in to obtain a copy. They are also available on the website.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Most people do not know that SEI exists.

Ms Ruth Buggy

We attend events such as the Spring House and Garden show, at which have a stand and provide booklets. Therefore, we interact to the best of our abilities.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

There are many outlets for those on low incomes such as health centres, CICs and so on.

Ms Ruth Buggy

The query related more to the provision of general advice. Advice on fuel poverty is contained in the booklet, Keep Warm, Keep Well, of which 300,000 copies were published, almost all of which are gone. It is under review for republication next year.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

To where did they go?

Ms Ruth Buggy

Initially, it was chaired by the HSE in the north west and the booklets were made available through day care centres.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Did anybody ever see them?

Deputy Catherine Byrne

Can the booklet be distributed with ESB or gas bills?

Ms Ruth Buggy

Yes. The initiative was supported by the ESB which conducts an awareness campaign every Christmas.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

Everybody receives an ESB or a gas bill. Would it not be possible to include a booklet with either of these bills?

Ms Ruth Buggy

I believe an information card to request a booklet was included with the bills, rather than flooding all households with information.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

People do not respond to information cards and envelopes that must be filled in. If the companies involved targeted senior citizens, it would be worth it.

Ms Tracy Kennedy

We include a winter booklet with our bills that includes much of the information described and distribute it to 560,000 homes.

Deputy Charlie O’Connor

Every letter box is filled with advertisements about pizzas, takeaways and so on. We should use the tried and tested means to make the information available. I always open my ESB, gas and NTL bills and have never seen these booklets. It is important to encourage SEI to make the information available to as many as possible.

Ms Ruth Buggy

We will certainly try to do so. The distribution was organised independently of the HSE for a couple of years which then distributed 250,000 booklets directly as part of its winter campaign. The booklet should have been available in chemists, post offices, citizens' information and community care centres. The community groups which deliver the warmer homes scheme were also equipped with copies. We used this network to distribute and deliver 300,000 copies of the booklet.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Did that service concentrate on the north east?

Ms Ruth Buggy

While it was set up initially in the north west, it was delivered nationally. An Post came on board and provided associated franking facilities. The ESB ran a radio advertising campaign to make people aware that the booklet was available. There is much information available around Christmas time. We do not have any in stock. We will update the information because the information contained in the booklet needs to be upgraded from time to time. It includes advice from Departments, with general information on the need to have warm drinks and put on an extra jumper. We include the cards in order that the public will have advice on the flu vaccine, the out-of-office GP, the warmer homes scheme, as well as important telephone numbers that might prove useful. There is also a card that alerts people to a risk to their health if the temperature drops to a certain level.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Does Ms Buggy have enough left to circulate them to us?

Ms Ruth Buggy

I do not have enough with me.

Ms Sara White

We will find some for the Deputy.

Deputy Charlie O’Connor

We are trying to be helpful.

Ms Sara White

We are all agreed on what needs to be done. One of the things we identified in the group was the need in the full version of the booklet to provide advice on all the available schemes. That is the most immediate, essential output.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

When does the Department expect to have that ready?

Ms Sara White

Early January is the target. We are talking about a website but, frankly, there is a whole constituency that will not be accessing a website on these issues. As everyone has been saying, this is something that needs to get into the system — into MABS, day centres and all the points of communication. We will find copies of this for the committee.

Deputy Olwyn Enright

We have become bogged down. While I am not lessening the value of this, and the website and advertising campaigns are important, my idea of what the strategy was supposed to be about and why we in Fine Gael raised this issue in the first place was to find out how we do this better. I do not just want a strategy telling me what schemes are in place at present and how they operate, which seems to be what we are discussing here. We need to work out how many households are in fuel poverty. The figure I have is 227,000 and either Ms Buggy or Mr. Nugent suggested 65,000 was the figure with regard to housing that needs to be updated. If there are 227,000 households living in fuel poverty, how do we get them out of it? Some 40% of the excess winter mortality rate is related to temperature conditions because people are dying of related illnesses. How do we address this and stop that excess rate, which is higher than in many other European countries?

While I do not believe the witnesses can provide this information today, I would like to get it from them. I know the schemes are in place, which is why we asked about the political input. My idea of political input was that the two or three relevant Ministers would put something in place and decide what it is we need to do. While I accept the money may not all be available this year to do this, in the next five years we will have targets to achieve better rates than we have at present. I am disappointed this has not been dealt with and that, effectively, what the witnesses have told us today is how the situation is at present, which, with all due respect, we know.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I agree wholeheartedly with that. The session has been disappointing. There is not much evidence of a strategic approach being taken to the problem. The scale and nature of the problem have not been quantified for us at all. I do not know whether the delegation has done that work and has just not brought it here, but there is no evidence of it being done. Nor is there any evidence of a strategy being put in place to tackle the problems.

Again, this is not about committing X millions of euro next year. It is about setting out what is the problem, its scale and what has to be done, and it is then up to the relevant Ministers to decide whether they will do that or not. The Departments should be setting out the strategy but I cannot see this being done. I suggest to the Chairman that we leave the group with the views of the committee and perhaps ask them to come back to us in three months to give an update on what they are doing.

Chairman

Fine. Are there other answers to be given or is everyone satisfied that everything is in order?

Ms Sara White

It is not for us to adjudicate on whether everything is in order.

Chairman

I meant in the best order we can have it.

Ms Sara White

This has been very valuable. It has also crystallised that there may be a number of messages that are not getting across. I would make the point that it is not just about sitting here to consider existing schemes. The fundamental review of how the warmer homes scheme operates will be carried out in the next few weeks in terms of whether it is the correct delivery mechanism and regarding the scale of problem if defined in terms of the housing issue. Those figures are available in various ways and we certainly can get them. This includes the ramping up of the warmer homes scheme and the local authorities' schemes. To some extent the home energy savings scheme is not unrelated because, while it might not always be about the fuel poverty issue, it is also about ramping up on the housing stocks.

We take on board the points made by Deputies and we would be glad to come back to the committee to better convince members that we are serious about tackling this in a strategic way. The elements of the strategy are multifaceted. I do not believe anyone is calling for us to stop the schemes that are in place. The efficiency obligation scheme is one of the initiatives that is ongoing and we will have a proposition around that for Ministers early in 2009. We fully undertake to come back and keep the committee fully briefed. We take on board the points made by the members.

In deference to a number of Deputies, including Deputy O'Connor who made the point about the all-island dimension, we work very closely with Northern Ireland on energy matters generally to the point that we have had a single electricity market on this island since 1 November 2007. We are working closely with them all the time. I hope the Minister will meet the Northern Ireland Minister, Ms Foster, in the foreseeable future to review a range of energy matters. We are talking and working with them and exchanging experiences on the fuel poverty issue. We intend to continue that close co-operation and dialogue. There are things we can all learn from each other in that space. I assure the committee we work very closely with them, hand in hand, on all those issues.

I thank the committee for its time, observations and insights. We will come back to the committee whenever it wishes to see us.

Chairman

I thank the officials for appearing before the committee today on an issue of national importance that affects the most vulnerable in our society.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.10 p.m. sine die.