JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 11 Nov 2009

Family Resource Centres: Discussion.

Chairman

I welcome Mr. Packie Kelly, chairperson of the Family Resource Centre National Forum and co-ordinator of the Mullaghmatt/Cortolvin family resource centre in County Monaghan, Ms Jennifer Logan, board member of the Family Resource Centre National Forum and chairperson of Mohill family resource centre in County Leitrim, and Mr. Stephen Murphy, co-ordinator of Fr. McGrath family resource centre, Kilkenny city.

I ask Mr. Kelly to commence the presentation on the impact on funding for family resource centres if the recommendation contained in the report of the Special Group on Public Service Numbers and Expenditure Programmes to close the Family Support Agency is implemented.

I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. Packie Kelly

I thank the members for the opportunity to address the committee. I am the chairperson of the Family Resource Centre National Forum which has been in existence for several years. I am also a project co-ordinator in a family resource centre in Monaghan. I will ask Ms Jennifer Logan and Mr. Stephen Murphy to introduce themselves to the committee.

Ms Jennifer Logan

I am from Mohill family support centre in County Leitrim. I have been a volunteer since 1999.

Mr. Stephen Murphy

I am a voluntary management member of our family resource centre in a very disadvantaged community in Kilkenny city. I have been the co-ordinator of the project, in the first full-time paid position, for approximately nine years.

Mr. Packie Kelly

If the members agree I will now go through the presentation with the committee. Members have been provided with a copy of the presentation. I will briefly go through it and we will then take any questions.

The family resource centre programme was established in 1994 and was greatly expanded in 1998 following the Report of the Commission on the Family. There are now 107 family resource centres throughout the country — many members would be aware of their local family resource centre — and the service is delivered through the family resource centre programme. The funding for the programme comes directly from the Family Support Agency. All 107 family resource centres are members of the national forum.

I will outline some of the key elements of family resource centres. They are based in and part of the local community. They are developed by the local community to address the needs of the area. We are fully integrated into a wide range of community infrastructures and operate a large number of successful partnerships with a wide range of voluntary and statutory agencies. The key point for us is that the core funding that allows us do that comes directly from the Family Support Agency.

The next page of the presentation briefly outlines the work of family resource centres but that is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of the levels of family support provided by family resource centres throughout the country. They are engaged in a plethora of activities only some of which are shown on that page.

Some of the results coming back from our national evaluation of family resource centres indicate that over 1 million visitors have attended family resource centres; there were over 41,000 visits by groups; 600 other community organisations helped access funding; and 361 groups assisted in developing their management structures. Those figures are for 2008. We are currently compiling the results for 2009 and are seeing a huge increase in those numbers, particularly of new families or, for want of a better word, the middle income families who come to us with major financial difficulties, a wide range of family support issues and unemployment. We are seeing many new families and I suggest by the end of this year we will have all of that data compiled.

In 2008, almost 11,000 people completed educational courses at FRCs and 6,000 of those would have had a vocational element to them. More than 6,000 people accessed counselling services and in terms of community education, counselling services and family support we are seeing an increased need within the FRCs, particularly this year.

On the recommendations in the McCarthy report, the current expenditure of the Family Support Agency, which provides us with the funding, is €35.5 million. The McCarthy report recommended the discontinuation of the Family Support Agency to help yield savings of €30 million. That also includes reducing support for the FRC programme by €18 million. When the McCarthy report was published we initiated a process of seeking the views of all the FRC members' views throughout the country. McCarthy questions the effectiveness of the service and points to funding overlaps. That is clearly not the case in regard to family resource centres.

Family resource centres are unique in terms of the family support services they provide to communities because we do not duplicate. No one is providing the level of family support we provide in the various communities in which family resource centres are located. McCarthy did not offer any analysis of the long-term cost of removing those family supports, and the FRC programme represents huge value for money. All of the organisational objectives and service development criteria of the FRC programme were met, according to the agenda for children's services.

When the McCarthy report was published, the board of the national forum was inundated with calls from voluntary management members who said the report caused fear, concern and apprehension. They wanted to know how their community would manage with regard to providing family support and a range of other community activities. As a result of that, the board of the national forum would have initiated a campaign in regard to having a public debate on the views of all the family resource centres of the McCarthy report. I am sure many members are aware that individual family resource centres have spoken to us in recent months. The national forum has spoken to a number of members also and we have found there is significant support for the work of family resource centres. Any Deputy who has a family resource centre in their constituency would be well aware of the work done by that family resource centre.

As part of that process we had a meeting with the Minister, Deputy Hanafin, on 2 September. That was a constructive and, I suggest, positive meeting considering the current financial difficulties in which we find ourselves. The Minister asked us to respond by outlining ways the FRCs could deliver more in the context of a new economic solution. After wide consultation with our membership we have provided the Minister with a response. That document suggests ways in which the family and community service resource centre programme can further develop. I believe Deputies have been given a copy of that programme.

We have stretched ourselves a great deal, so to speak, in this process because we are very aware that this country is facing a very different economic climate. Family resource centres would be acutely aware of that because they see families coming in to them every week with new difficulties that in the past five years we would not have faced.

Regarding proposed further development, an issue the Minister asked us about, and how we can further develop with the same level of funding, we have suggested key areas including strategic partnership with other agencies, particularly the Health Service Executive; inter-agency planning and consultation on local needs, particularly in the area of family support; child contact points in the community; working with men, particularly those who are vulnerable or isolated; and parenting programmes.

In regard to our discussion with the Minister and the challenge put before us, there is no doubt that family resource centres are prepared to face that challenge and meet that need because family resource centres have always been creative about developing a wide range of community supports for families.

On the question of proposed further development and efficiencies, we examined the levels of support we currently receive and how they could be modified. They are outlined in the document.

FRCs recognise the challenge facing Government and have put an efficiencies and savings proposal to the Minister. The proposal to discontinue the investment in the family resource centre programme is rash and will have irreversible consequences for the community in general. The FRC programme has succeeded in all its objectives and is willing to expand its services at no extra cost. The proposal has been submitted to the Minister and costs have been implemented effectively within a realistic timeframe. We had an appointment with the Minister for tomorrow but, unfortunately, it has been cancelled due to other business. We are assured we will get another meeting in the near future.

That sums up the proposal, Chairman. We will be happy to take questions from members.

Senator Martin Brady

I welcome the delegation and commend its members on the excellent work they do. I met a group from Kerry a few days ago and was very impressed with the knowledge and experience they had gained in this area. Mr. Colm McCarthy gave a presentation to our parliamentary party meeting. He made the point that there is a great deal of duplication in the area of social services, including family support. He said there are too many shops doing the same thing in the same area and that if one does not get something in one shop, one can be looked after in the other. I tend to agree with that point of view. I am a great believer in a one-stop-shop. I explained that when I spoke to other groups. When one goes into some of these places, they are not as efficient as they should be. Some of them close early, for example, or do not have regular hours of opening and so forth. I am not saying they are all like that because I have spoken to the people I met here today and, by their own admission, they are providing an excellent service. However, people in the community are starting to complain about some of these places, saying they are not providing the required service, are a waste of money and so forth.

This type of service is necessary because there is an increasing demand in the area I represent, particularly in Donaghmede and Darndale, due to unemployment and people having problems with mortgages. There is no need to go through all the problems as everybody knows what I mean. We must also consider the number of immigrants that have come to this country. They have to be dealt with as well and there are many problems there. We should not knock this service. I certainly would not favour it discontinuing because it is necessary. The members of the delegation are fair people and I am sure they could find ways of making savings without worsening the service to people. One example is having everything under the same roof in a one-stop-shop, whereby people are not sent six or seven miles away to have another problem dealt with. What are the delegation's views on how the service could be compacted to make it neater and tidier? Again, I compliment the delegation on its good work.

Deputy Seymour Crawford

I welcome Mr. Packie Kelly, a fellow County Monaghan man, and his two colleagues to the meeting. Mr. Kelly gave an excellent outline of what the resource centres do. We fought for years in Monaghan to get the Mullaghmatt/Cortolvin resource centre established. It was an extremely difficult housing area with many family problems and other issues. After years of pressure we eventually got one of the finest resource centres in the country, and I assure Senator Brady that the centre is only closed for a few hours at night. It has changed the structure and attitude in those housing estates and further afield. There is a big danger that some of the progress that was made during the early part of this decade could be seriously put back without the financial support these organisations have been getting.

There are a number of other organisations in the county and in the Cavan/Monaghan constituency and they all give an excellent service in their areas. It took us so long to get where we are today that it would be disastrous to stop now. What must be taken into account is the repercussions of this service being withdrawn. They include more problem families, people under pressure from gardaí, people before the courts and so forth. I do not say that lightly. This area of Monaghan had those problems but I get very few telephone calls now from those housing estates about family problems. We cannot ignore this. I have done all I can by lobbying to ensure that this service is recognised. I accept the point raised by Senator Brady about other organisations that might be duplicating services. They must be brought together to provide a single service. However, this is a separate body that gives a very specific service to families and communities. I will urge the Minister and the Government to give serious consideration to this situation. It took a long time to establish the service and have it accepted as the place of first contact for many families. I support Mr. Kelly and the organisation, not just in Cortolvin but nationally.

Deputy Charlie O’Connor

I wish to be associated with the warm welcome extended to our guests. I thank Mr. Kelly for the briefing he gave me and the Government convenor, Deputy Thomas Byrne, recently. I am aware he also met other colleagues.

My colleagues have mentioned their constituencies so perhaps I will be allowed to mention Tallaght. Incidentally, Chairman, I also had the opportunity to meet the delegation from Kerry last week. I am sure the people concerned are dear to your heart. Unfortunately, I am not from Kerry but I go there quite regularly. I compliment them on their attitude. I am familiar with the two centres in Tallaght, in Kilnamanagh and Killinarden, and unquestionably they do tremendous work. Indeed, as I told Mr. Kelly recently, I took the opportunity some time ago to invite the Minister, Deputy Mary Hanafin, to visit the centres to see what they do. What is interesting about those centres is that they are completely different. They both do tremendous work in the community but they have different remits due to the types of estates for which they cater. They are a good example of the worth of family resource centres in our communities.

The next 29 days will be difficult and worrying as we approach budget day. Everybody is lobbying and pointing to the need to save money and at the same time to ensure that specific services are not interfered with. I care as much about the centres in Monaghan, Kerry and elsewhere because, based on the Tallaght experience, I am aware they are doing a tremendous job in the community. My colleagues and I will continue to stress to the Minister the importance of these centres to our communities. I wish the delegation well. It should not stop lobbying for the next month.

Deputy Cyprian Brady

I also wish to thank the delegation. In Dublin Central, as in Tallaght, we have interaction with family resource centres, particularly in Hill Street. Neither side of the House will argue about the value and benefits of family resource centres anywhere in the country. Naturally enough, there is a difference between services provided in rural and urban areas, and the delegation from Kerry gave us an insight into those differences. In his presentation, Mr. Murphy mentioned proposals to provide more efficiencies and a more cost-effective service. He referred to inter-agency co-operation, but has that been an issue up to now, for instance with the HSE? It is difficult for us sometimes, but I know from speaking to other community groups, including family resource centres, that it can also be an issue for them. Perhaps that could be built into whatever suggestions are made to the Minister. Nobody who has had contact with a family resource centre will make disparaging remarks about them. We will make clear to the Minister the benefits of family resource centres.

Deputy Niall Blaney

Like other speakers, I welcome the delegation. The presentation was short and precise. As regards the lobbying, it was done nicely with useful information being put to us. It was a quiet and effective lobby. I have nothing but the highest praise for the work undertaken by family resource centres in my constituency. They are community focused and if we were to lose them it would have dire consequences for certain people I represent in Donegal North-East. The Minister is aware of the good work done by the family resource centres and I appeal to her not to take any rash decisions in this regard. I do not believe she will act rashly, however, because Members from all parties recognise the good work of the centres. They also recognise their willingness to push barriers out further by taking on a wider workload. Family resource centres should be embraced at times like these. We should work with them, not against them, in order to get the best we can and buck the current climate. The family resource centres are willing to move with the Department, so the Department should move with them also.

Deputy Joe Carey

I also want to put on record my support for the family resource centres in my constituency of Clare. I have also met the groups concerned. It would be useful if Mr. Stephen Murphy could give an insight into a working day. He said he was from Kilkenny and works with disadvantaged people there. To make the case for family resource centres, he should provide an analysis of a typical day in such centres. I invite him to do so.

Mr. Stephen Murphy

I thank Deputy Carey very much. Senator Martin Brady thought that some family resource centres were not open for very long during the day, but I am not aware of them. In Carlow-Kilkenny, my own family resource centre starts at 8 o'clock in the morning. Typically, Monday to Friday, it is open at 8 a.m. and runs until 10.30 p.m. or 11 p.m. The morning comprises a variety of training programmes, including adult education and FETAC-level courses, in addition to child care services. We target illiteracy, which is a big issue in our community. We try to make contact with people who have few opportunities to access education.

In the afternoons we run one of the largest one-to-one catch-up programmes for children in the country. We have 86 children on such a programme that we devised. Under the model we work with, we identify children aged three or four in our play-school who will need extra support by the time they reach primary school. Every three years the Department works with us on revising the area action plan, which includes extensive needs analysis and surveys. Some 200 voluntary tutors support us in that initiative throughout the year. In addition, we have 126 children in after-school care clubs, aged from five to 17 years. Those programmes are based around a self-development education model.

The evening shifts comprise women's and men's groups, including the men alone network. There are also tenancy groups, community development bodies and sporting organisations. A typical week in the Fr. McGrath centre comprises 12-hour days from Monday to Friday and six or eight hours on Saturdays. As we have been able to develop our facilities, more and more people are seeking space on Sunday afternoons. In line with the philosophy of the family resource centres, we hate to see an empty room. We are doing something wrong if there is an empty room in the building.

Chairman

We will take the remaining questions before seeking responses from the witnesses.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I wish to thank Mr. Packie Kelly and other members of the delegation. Coming from a background of voluntary work, I know there is a real need for communities to have more support. There is a new cohort of people who now find themselves in various households with different lifestyles. More than ever before, they need to be brought under the aegis of community services. I would not claim that all family resource centres are the same because I can only speak about the ones in my community. I might be a fly in the ointment because I have some concerns about them, although it is not their fault. In the beginning they were put into certain sections of the community and basically dealt with people in RAPID areas. As such they identified with a certain group living in the community. In my opinion, that has held the centres back from communicating with the wider community and how they are seen by that community. There is a real need for such centres to take people on board. Given everything that is happening in this country, however, we need to examine things from a structural perspective. Family resource centres should re-examine their focus and agendas in order to influence not only the small section of people they have been working with, but also the wider community. By that I mean not only families in need, but also people who would like to contribute and be part of this voluntary organisation, though they may feel excluded.

I am only speaking about my own area. I heard Mr. Stephen Murphy explain how important his centre is and its opening hours. I do not have proof that such centres open for those hours in my area. There is a concern in the wider community that family resource centres have become isolated and only deal with a certain section of the public. That might be the downfall of the organisation across the community, if it does not allow itself to expand. When I met Mr. Packie Kelly I spoke at length to him about my views of community organisations. I also spoke about my fears concerning the role of family resource centres and how they are seen by the community at large. I know that in the beginning their job was basically in areas of deprivation where there were major family problems, but life is changing for everybody. In order for us all to be able to live and work together in any community, we need to stop looking inwards and look outwards instead. We must look at the broader issue. That can benefit everybody, not only those in the community but also those within family resource centres.

The added advantage of this is that people do not feel isolated anymore. The certain group of people who have been isolated and have had it difficult in the past do not feel isolated because there are others in their community who are interested in them and want to help as well.

There are significant resources among the unemployed. There is a wide range of skills, such as architects, solicitors, carpenters and plumbers. Those people now have an opportunity to be brought on board into communities and to work at family resource centres.

In my community the biggest group who need more help than anyone else are older people who are confined to their homes and cannot get somebody to change a lock, paint a wall or help with their garden. Having a group like a family resource centre in a community can only build on all those doing such work. That is where I would see the family resource centres changing their focus, adopting a new agenda and inviting in people who, like me, I must be honest, long before I was ever in politics, felt like a stranger on the outside. I have worked all my life in my parish and I still have a problem with how family resource centres are perceived.

One point which I made to Mr. Packie Kelly is that the family resource centre should not isolate itself and put itself in the corner of an estate where nobody knows what it is and from where it deals only with a small number of people. I suggested it be on the main road and part of the wider community to show that community that there is a need for everybody to be involved in this, that the responsibility is not only on those within the family resource centre but on everybody living in a community, whether one has or has not. That is what I want to see the family resource centres focusing on in the future.

They have my support. I spoke at length to Mr. Packie Kelly, and he agreed with some of what I had to say. I say "well done". The job will get more difficult and they need as many people as possible backing them.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I apologise for not being here earlier. I have been attending a select committee all morning and I am still tied up there. I am glad to come to this meeting to record my support and welcome the delegation. I was interested to hear what Deputy Catherine Byrne said and Senator Brady's comments. There are perception issues with which we must deal.

I can only speak for the three centres in my constituency, namely, Spafield in Cashel, Knockanrawley in Tipperary town and the Millennium resource centre in Glencoole. I could not speak highly enough of them. I have ensured the Minister has visited all three of them to see for herself the work they do. I am familiar with the work of the Fr. McGrath family resource centre in Kilkenny. They are open from 7 a.m. until 10.30 p.m. I have been there at many functions on Sundays and at other times of the weekend. I want to record my total support for their work. It is a diverse range, as has been mentioned by others, including counselling, child care, family supports of all kinds, mediation counselling, and after-school and homework clubs.

I pay tribute to the volunteers, who I call the enablers, on the voluntary boards of all these places. These are the unpaid staff who first had the idea or brainchild and who had many sleepless nights in setting them up and still have because they are employers who must embrace all the child care legislation and employment legislation and deal with the resulting responsibilities. Many of them are companies limited by guarantee. There is no proper training available to these volunteers or financial support. If there is a problem such as a staff issue, they still must come in at night to hold a meeting to sort it out. I am aware there are many and varied issues because I am a member of many of these boards. I really want to pay tribute to them. It would be short-sighted if these were in any way hampered. Certainly, if there are issues in some areas, perhaps we should look at them. However, the established centres and their voluntary boards and staff are doing a tremendous job and we must support them in that.

Deputy Denis Naughten

I apologise for not hearing the oral presentation owing to being at another meeting this morning. However, I had the opportunity to visit Ms Logan in Mohill. There are three centres serving my constituency: Mohill, Boyle and Athlone.

There are two aspects to an bord snip nua's report. There is the issue of the family support agency and then the issue of the family support centres. When one looks at the overall budget used to deliver the service by the family support centres, it seems there is great value for the money spent.

I take on board what my colleague, Deputy Catherine Byrne, has said. However, in my constituency the resources have filled a void in the provision of services. They adopt a multidisciplinary approach, as Mr. Murphy pointed out, on issues such as adult literacy and child care that are causing some of the difficulties families have experienced in the past.

Deputy Byrne is correct that the family support centres must change because of the significant pressures coming on families. Even this week I visited a number of houses and spoke to a number of women in what would not be classed as deprived households under any category. The enormous pressure they are under and their desperation is incredible. When they go for help to the money advice and budgeting service, MABS, they encounter waiting lists. When they apply for jobseeker's allowance, they wait up to 20 weeks, as Senator Nicky McFadden will explain from the experience in her constituency.

As Senator Martin Brady stated earlier, with some of the centres there is a need for greater co-ordination between the services they provide. In my constituency that is not an issue. The family support centres have been very much the co-ordinating force to bring many of the State agencies together and have delivered a cost-effective service for a small sum of money.

I put two points to the delegation. They need to be far more proactive in highlighting to us, as public representatives, the services they provide. They have failed in the past to communicate that effectively to those who can make referrals to the service. In recent months I have had to refer three separate families to various resource centres and they have been very satisfied with the service they have received. However, many are not aware of that service being available and are not aware that such a helping hand exists when their back is to the wall, which is the case at present.

Now, more than ever, we need these services in place to spearhead the co-ordination needed. They need to put forward detailed proposals on how they can spearhead the delivery of services in communities such as what is being done in Mohill and Boyle, and replicate that in some of the other centres throughout the country.

Deputy John Perry

I am glad to get the opportunity to speak on this. Having listened to Deputy Naughten on the issue, I note the service is now more critical than ever.

I note the service's value for money. I would have difficulty with the McCarthy report in light of the level of due diligence carried out just before this announcement was made. The €35 million for the family support agency would amount to €300,000 per unit, but even on the family resource centres, the amount would be approximately €150,000 per centre. Given the value for money and the level of revenue generated in a particular region, one is talking about €150,000 per centre. From my experience in Sligo-North Leitrim, I recognise the significant level of commitment, dedication and partnership of the voluntary sector and State agencies working to deliver a service locally in areas which otherwise would be very much neglected.

On the McCarthy report, it is easy to draw a line through a voted Estimate of Government and state that it will be removed to balance the books. Has the Comptroller and Auditor General ever carried out a due diligence exercise in respect of the value for money audit? If he were to carry out such an exercise, I am sure his findings would indicate that the services should be retained. It was unfair that the McCarthy report did not contain an in-depth analysis in respect of this matter, especially when one considers the major commitment given by professionals who provide an extremely valuable service.

The economy is now multi-tiered in nature and many people have become marginalised. Job losses are being announced each day. Even today there are reports of huge job losses in Sligo. People are being marginalised and are losing their income supports. These income supports, which relate to after-school care, preschool, etc., were of major assistance to families that live in high-density housing estates. I am sure Deputy Scanlon will agree that the comprehensive service provided to families in Ballymote in our constituency is on a par with that which is provided elsewhere.

I reiterate that what was done in the McCarthy report was unfair. I ask that the Comptroller and Auditor General carry out a value for money audit. I am of the view that such an audit would validate the case for the retention of these services.

Deputy Naughten referred to the accreditation of centres. Accreditation is extremely important to any business, particularly in the context of its operations. The family resource centre with which I am familiar would have no difficulty undergoing an accreditation review by the Department in respect of its level of competence and the level of service provided. There are 107 such centres throughout the country and I am sure some do not perform as well as others. However, we should not damn them all on foot of the fact that a small level of incompetence may obtain at one or two. To my knowledge, there is no such incompetence.

If there was an accreditation process, the centres could be accredited and validated. The cost per centre is €150,000. Let us consider the money that is wasted on consultants. In the past two years, the Government was spending €1 million per week on consultants. Did Mr. McCarthy recommend that we should abandon the consultants?

Deputy Denis Naughten

Is Mr. McCarthy not a consultant?

Deputy John Perry

Possibly. We are spending €1 million per week on consultants and it is suggested that we close down a facility which only costs the State €150,000 per week and which provides an invaluable service. The Government was elected to govern. Mr. McCarthy was not elected to inform the Department what needs to be validated and what needs to be rubbished.

If the Department has a doubt with regard to the credibility of these centres, it should instruct the Comptroller and Auditor General to carry out a value for money audit. I am sure their position would be vindicated because they do an excellent job. Such an exercise would ensure that they are retained.

Deputy Mary Alexandra White

I am not a member of the committee so I thank the Chairman for the opportunity to contribute. I welcome our guests, especially Mr. Murphy who comes from my constituency of Carlow-Kilkenny.

I have had the opportunity to work with those at the Fr. McGrath and Newpark family resource centres in Kilkenny city, the Bagnelstown family resource centre in Carlow and the Forward Steps family resource centre in Tullow. I had the privilege to accompany the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government on a visit to the Fr. McGrath centre on Monday last. From working as a councillor and as a Deputy over many years, I can honestly state that the work done by the centres is unparalleled. On one occasion when I was in the Newpark family resource centre, a woman stood up and said that it had saved her life, brought her back from the brink and that she owed her rehabilitation to it. I heard similar stories at the centres in Kilkenny. I know a disabled man at the Bagnelstown family resource centre who has little formal education and who has literacy problems. He proudly informed me earlier in the year that he had passed the junior certificate and that he is proceeding to pursue the leaving certificate.

I have not discovered any gaps in the service, difficulties with budgeting or whatever or a lack of integration. Deputy Catherine Byrne used the word "inclusivity". I can speak only in respect of the centres in the constituency I represent because they are the ones with which I am familiar. In that context, I must state that those centres are totally inclusive. As the recession bites deeper, we must target our resources and our courses. However, when the time comes to snip, family resource centres should not be affected. I again thank the Chairman for affording me the opportunity to contribute.

Senator Nicky McFadden

I welcome Mr. Kelly, Ms Logan and Mr. Murphy. I appreciate the briefing material they forwarded to me during the summer. I thoroughly enjoyed the experience of visiting the three centres in my area, namely, those at Ballymahon, at Ballinacarrigy and at The Batteries in Athlone. I am acutely aware of the work that is done in these centres. On the day of my visit, a mother and toddler group was meeting in one corner of the Ballymahon centre and the active age group was meeting in another. I also saw the new billiards table that had been acquired for youngsters to play on in the evenings. The atmosphere at the centre was very inclusive and welcoming. Older people, particularly those in rural areas, suffer as a result of isolation, so it was good to see people of different age groups mixing.

At the time to which I refer, there was an active lobby in respect of the rural transport initiative and I believe our guests played a role in highlighting the issues involved. The resource centre in Athlone, which provides after-school care and courses for women, recently acquired a community house. The work done there is just phenomenal.

I am interested in hearing about ways in which our guests believe better value for money might be obtained. I would also be interested in obtaining a copy of the presentation they made to the Minister. While €35 million is a great deal of money, as Deputy Perry stated, when it is divided among the individual centres it is obvious that good value for money is being obtained. I would like to obtain a copy of the presentation in order that I might further endorse what our guests are doing in the new economic climate in which we find ourselves.

I am also interested in how the family resource centres might become more inclusive and cater for those in middle class areas that are becoming extremely poverty stricken. Are our guests in a position to indicate ways in which they might broaden the range of services to care for those who have become the new poor?

Deputy Frank Feighan

I welcome our guests. I apologise for my late arrival, I was involved in a radio discussion with a Minister in respect of the cost of school transport. The various Oireachtas committees have received deputations of people who have indicated the importance of the services they or their organisations provide. I need no convincing with regard to the service provided by the family resource centres. I live in Boyle and I previously worked in the outreach service run by what has now become the town's family resource centre. Therefore, I have first-hand knowledge of the work done in this area.

In recent times, politicians have been visited by people who are suicidal, extremely angry or have been bereaved. I find on occasion that I am not qualified or experienced enough to deal with these individuals but it is great that I can refer them to the local family resource centre. When they go through the doors of the resource centre, the assistance they receive is second to none and their cases are dealt on a strictly confidential basis.

I attended the recent launch at the Mohill family resource centre. In that context, our guests could have provided wonderful brochures, documents, etc. with their presentation, but these would be no substitute for encouraging members to visit their local resource centres to see the work being done. The Government should cherish both the volunteers who work at these centres and the level of expertise they offer. The centres are doing work the HSE is not in a position to do in the context of targeting social exclusion and combating poverty. The staff know their own areas and have done this successfully. We are living in difficult times and many sacred cows will not survive but I am convinced the work done by the centres will stand up to scrutiny to ensure there will be no cuts in the forum's budget. I applaud the work of the staff and wish them well in the future.

Senator Rónán Mullen

Cuirim fáilte roimh ár n-aíonna. Tá brón orm nach raibh mé in ann bheith anseo níos luaithe, cé gur theastaigh uaim bheith anseo chun tacaíocht a thabhairt don obair idir lámha acu, agus mo ghuth féin a chur leis na guthanna eile a rá go bhfuil sé tábhachtach nach ndéanfaí ionsaí ar an sórt oibre atá ar siúl acu, obair atá chomh tábhachtach sin dár sochaí.

I join others in commending the work of the forum and acknowledge the valuable social function it exercises at a time of increasing challenge in society. We are all aware of the various recommendations made in the McCarthy report and the distress they have caused not only to people who might be at the receiving end but also the service providers such as the FRCs which see the glaring need at first hand. We are all familiar with the famous phrase "Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine". People are interdependent on each other. We are all aware of the limitations of big government and large State agencies to deal with the challenges they face in their lives. Where the voluntary effort connects with State supported services at local level, a great deal of good can be done. Earlier the Seanad discussed the extreme pressure on families, particularly that caused by financial problems, in times like these, the problems caused for the stability of marriages and the violence that sometimes results. We are living in an unpleasant time in Irish life and I hope we will not make matters worse by targeting the services and people who make a serious difference in ordinary people's lives. I commend the staff of the family resource centres and wish them all the best. There is probably unanimity among members in supporting the good work they do.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

Unfortunately, I am in and out of the meeting because I am a member of another important committee which is meeting at the same time.

A family resource centre operates in a building I own. Deputy Perry referred to the service in Ballymote, County Sligo, the one with which I am most familiar, and the benefit it provides for local people. It is a fantastic service. There are four centres in County Sligo and two in north Leitrim. A contract will be signed today or tomorrow in Tubbercurry, County Sligo, for the construction of a new family resource centre and crèche, which is good news. I hope services are maintained, as they were never more needed, although the work done cannot be publicised for different reasons, as the Government recognises. I hope it will continue to do so. The forum has my full support.

Senator Martin Brady

On a point of clarification, Mr. Murphy referred to my comment that family resource centres were not opened but I was referring to another service which has a notice up that it closes at 1.30 p.m. It is looking for funding and people are complaining. The family resource centre in my area provides an excellent service.

Mr. Packie Kelly

I thank members for their kind remarks and, in particular, their support to date. I ask for their continued support for this campaign.

Issues were raised. There is no doubt about the level of support provided by family resource centres. They are providing the goods on the ground. In recent discussions with the Minister we were told the environment was changing and that there was a new challenge to FRCs. As chairperson of the national forum, I have to say to the Minister that we are prepared to step up to the plate because FRCs are about the community. That is the way we have operated.

Reference was made to the duplication of services. That holds some water in the McCarthy report and other areas. However, there is no duplication of services in FRCs. No one else does what is done in a family resource centre. Some centres need to step up to the mark, for which we are prepared. It is a difficult time and we are all awaiting the budget but if the family resource centre programme can survive, where the centres need to develop in the future, how they need to promote themselves and how they need to expand services to families will not be difficult ground for them.

Mr. Stephen Murphy

I refer to Deputy Perry's comment on the value the Government is getting for the €150,000 on average given to each FRC. The average allocation is €100,000. Ours is one of the oldest and biggest in the State and we receive €125,000.

I was concerned to hear Deputy Byrne say she considered some FRCs were exclusive in their communities and that they were not open to mainstreaming their services. That would fly in the face of the ethos we are trying to develop in communities. My own community is a typical example. It is in the oldest corporation housing estate in the area and one of the big challenges in our first area action plan which the Department helped us to set up was how we could break down the barriers to get people to engage with us because part of the exclusion and stigma with which we were dealing was that the estate was regarded negatively. It was seen as a dangerous place, that there were many social problems in the area and that the only place one would read about a community like ours in the press was in the local court pages. There was a saying in the community for many generations that the only time outsiders came into the community was when they had to look for their bicycles or daughters.

One of the key successes in our project in the past ten years is that we have done so much to break down these barriers. When we started off with a derelict building, we did not realise the success we would achieve because by developing services, building a reputation through developing our own public relations and shining a new light on what was happening in the community and who the people were who were engaging and looking to address their issues, it helped us to draw people into the estate. Hundreds of people use our computer training and child care services every week. We prioritise child care services for local families and make no apology in this regard. It is in our interests to engage the middle classes and get them to embrace our services.

Almost 200 volunteers support the activities of the Fr. McGrath centre and we are impressed because we generally seem to be able to attract the gentry. The affluent within Kilkenny society have engaged and embraced the work we do. Sometimes I walk into the homework club in the afternoon and see retired teachers and doctors. A retired bishop is a prominent member of our volunteers. I am disappointed to hear FRCs are not engaging. If they are not, they do all of us a disservice because that is not the ethos of the programme we run.

Ms Jennifer Logan

I come to this from the point of view of a volunteer on the family resource centre programme. I have been a volunteer for the past ten years and came into the programme as a mother. I have learned to be a builder, an employer, a planner and everything else that goes with the programme. We started off in a small one-roomed centre, but now we have established a fabulous new centre and child care centre. We are open from 7 a.m. to God knows what time at night.

Mention was made already of old people and of interaction with them. We recently organised bingo nights. I never thought I would ever be calling out bingo numbers but I am. Going in the door to the centre the other night, this old woman took my hand and said: "I have not been out of the house in years. You have done something for us." I thought of it as just bingo but it has helped an 80 year old woman to get out of her house. She liked bingo but could not take a bus and travel miles to a bingo game somewhere else. Now we are there providing something for her.

Deputy Naughten said we need to be more proactive in highlighting our services. I work in a hotel and know the cost of marketing is incredible. We cannot afford such marketing. However, I think our campaign has brought every family resource centre in the country together and shown the people what we do. That was invaluable for us. I am disappointed to think that some centres lack facilities. I know what it is like. We started in one room, but in them months since we opened our new centre we have taken in approximately 15% more people and expect numbers to increase further. Our child care centre provides for 65 children and we have a waiting list of 30. I do not know whether we will have to add on to that facility or what we will have to do, but we will get there.

We are also involved in neighbourhood watch, which means we are out in the community helping older people all the time. We have volunteers who work locally going around and doing peoples' gardens and other such chores. I am disappointed to think this is not done by other family resource centres. Perhaps now that we must change, we can network and help each other. I know in Carrick-on-Shannon, for example, the centre runs allotments for men. This has brought men back into the picture. It is very difficult to get men involved. We also have a men's group. They come to the centre on a Friday because they like to get a nice cooked dinner, but the new group brings them together and they are doing basket-weaving and other activities, which is brilliant. Work as a volunteer has been hard, but my passion for this programme has grown over the past ten years.

Chairman

I thank the delegates from the Family Resource Centre National Forum for attending the committee meeting and outlining for members the impact on family resource centres if funding is cut through the abolition of the Family Support Agency. We will have a presentation from the Department on the issue shortly. I assure the members of the forum they have my total support for the retention of the family resource centres. I would like to convey that message to Mr. Dan Crowley, in particular. He is a member of the team and was to be here today and had contacted us in recent days. I assure him of my 100% support for the fantastic work done by these centres.

I welcome Ms Helen Faughnan, principal officer, and Ms Ann Marie O'Connor, assistant principal officer, from the Department of Social and Family Affairs. I invite Ms Faughnan to commence her presentation on the Department's response to the recommendation contained in the report of the special group on public service numbers and expenditure programme to close the Family Support Agency.

I draw witnesses attention to the fact that members of this committee have privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Ms Helen Faughnan

I thank the Chairman and members for their invitation to appear before the committee. I propose to provide the committee with background information on the Family Support Agency and the various programmes it supports.

The Family Support Agency was established on 6 May 2003. It has a statutory role with regard to support services for families and brings together programmes and services introduced by the Government which are designed to promote family and community well-being. Funding for the agency has increased from €17.28 million in 2003 to €35.707million for 2009.

The functions of the Family Support Agency are prescribed in the Family Support Agency Act 2001. The main services provided are as follows: the family and community services resource centre, FRC, programme; the scheme of grants to voluntary organisations providing marriage, child and bereavement counselling and related services; and the family mediation service. The agency also has a responsibility to undertake or commission research, to advise the Minister for Social and Family Affairs and to promote and disseminate information on family related issues.

I will take the committee through the various programmes I have outlined. The FRC programme was established in 1994 to help combat disadvantage by improving the function of the family unit. The emphasis in family resource centres is on the involvement of the local community in developing approaches to tackle the problems they face and on creating successful partnerships between the voluntary and statutory agencies in the area concerned. FRCs assess the needs of their local communities and ensure there are services and supports in place to address these needs. Needs addressed range from centres in rural communities providing employment supports, skills training and support to isolated and older people, to urban centres providing supports for lone parent families, early school leavers and new communities.

Family resource centres involve people from marginalised groups and areas of disadvantage at all levels in the various centres. More than 900 people serve on the voluntary management committees of FRCs, with other volunteers contributing each year to FRC activities and programmes. These volunteers are organised and supported by between one and three FSA funded co-ordinators, administrators and community development workers, depending on the nature of the family resource centre.

Senator Nicky McFadden

I am sorry to interrupt. It is ridiculous that there are only two Fine Gael members here to hear this presentation and nobody else apart from the Chair. We do not even have a quorum. We should have a quorum. It is outrageous that there are only two committee members here to hear the response. There was a large group here ten minutes ago but now they have all left. That is ridiculous.

Notice taken that five members were not present; committee membership counted and five members being present,

Chairman

We will continue with the presentation.

Ms Helen Faughnan

The number of family resource centres has expanded from an original ten to 107 nationwide. Funding has increased from some €318,000 in 1994 to €18.047 million in 2009. There are currently five specialist agencies supporting the family resource centres in their work. These agencies are funded by a number of other Departments and the Family Support Agency commissions them to provide services for the FRCs, family resource centres, across a range of areas including disability awareness, Traveller participation and supporting families dealing with domestic violence. There are also seven regional support agencies who work under contract to the Family Support Agency to provide technical support, training and monitoring to FRCs throughout the country on a regional basis. The family resource centre national forum which made a presentation to the committee earlier today, is the representative voice of affiliated family resource centres. The forum provides information, support and networking and training opportunities for its members.

The Family Support Agency also provides funding to voluntary and community organisations providing marriage, relationship, child and bereavement counselling services. The scheme of grants focuses on the development of support services in the community for families to enhance stability in family life and to assist families and their members in dealing with difficult periods which they may experience. Funding is used to help people deal with difficulties they are experiencing in their relationships, to help children whose lives have been affected by parental separation and to support families who have experienced the death of a family member.

The policy objectives which inform funding allocations include the continued financial support of established major providers of services so that they can continue to provide and develop their services; supporting the establishment of a regional network of family support services by investing in locally based service providers in key areas throughout the country; and an emphasis on supporting service providers in disadvantaged communities. Some 600 organisations are funded each year. Funding for the counselling grants scheme in 2009 is €11.864 million. A total of 29 of the larger organisations receive multi-annual funding under the scheme. Each of the 29 organisations is well established and has a proven track record in the specialty of services it provides and is in receipt of funding of at least €60,000 per annum.

The Family Support Agency is responsible for the provision of family mediation to separating couples. Established in 1986, the Family Mediation Service was the first publicly funded family mediation service in Europe. The FMS is a free, professional, confidential service which enables couples, both married and non-married, who have decided to separate or divorce and who together want to negotiate the terms of their separation or divorce with the help of a trained mediator. It assists couples to address the issues on which they need to make decisions including, post-separation living arrangements, finances and parenting arrangements to enable children to have an ongoing relationship with each parent.

The FMS is also available for individuals who have never lived together but may have a child to parent and wish to come to mediation to negotiate parenting and contact arrangements. The FMS can also assist in other family issues such as grandparent access to grandchildren post-separation, and issues between natural parents and foster parents of children in care. The service has been dealing with an increasing number of referrals from the courts. The majority of these referrals are dealing with parenting issues between unmarried parents.

The FMS currently has 16 offices countrywide, 12 of which are part-time offices open to the public two days per week. Some 1,500 couples were assisted in 2008. Funding for the FMS in 2009 is €3.305 million.

A key role for the FMS is to conduct or commission research into matters related to the agency's functions or such other matter as the Minister may request. The agency achieves this through direct commissioning of research and through the research grant programme which awards annual funding to projects providing original research in the field of family policy relevant to the agency. For example, research papers, such as Supporting Child Contact: The Need for Child and Family Contact Centres in Ireland, which research carried out by One Family and funded by the agency; Family Figures: Family Dynamics and Family Types in Ireland, 1986-2006, which is research based on detailed data from the 2006 Census and undertaken by the ESRI; and The Role of Grandparents in Divorced and Separated Families by Dr. Timonen, Trinity College, Dublin. These various research projects are due to be published shortly. Funding for the FSA's research programme in 2009 is €428,000.

The FSA is responsible for promoting and disseminating information about issues in relation to marriage and relationship education, family mediation, parenting and family responsibilities and related matters. This work is often carried out in collaboration with non-governmental organisations. For example, Parenting Positively is a set of nine booklets jointly produced by the Family Support Agency and Barnardos, aimed at supporting parents of children aged six to 12 through a range of parenting challenges. In addition to a booklet on general parenting skills, the series also deals with some of the more complex life issues facing parents, covering themes such as death, separation, domestic abuse and bullying. Building on this series a new website for teenagers, TeenHelp, along with a series of booklets for the parents of teenagers is due to be launched shortly. The agency funded an advertising campaign by Treoir to address misinformation which abounds on the rights of unmarried father’s regarding their children. The budget for the information programme in 2009 is €132,000.

The agency has a total of 41 whole-time equivalent posts including the part-time services of 21 professional mediators and their part-time administrative support staff. The work of the agency is underpinned by the corporate services section, which provides human resources, accounts, payroll and facilities management. Overall administration costs for the agency's headquarters including staff and accommodation will amount to €1.93 million in 2009.

The agency is overseen by a 12-person board consisting of members with experience and expertise in fields such as family mediation, the family resource centre programme, counselling, research and family law. A representative from the Department of Social and Family Affairs is also a member of the board.

The report of the special group on public service numbers and expenditure programmes made a range of recommendations relating to the Department of Social and Family Affairs, including recommendations relating to the Family Support Agency and its programmes. The group recommended that:

The Family Support Agency and most of its programmes be discontinued. However, a proportion of community and voluntary funding should be retained and unified with other State-funded community and voluntary programmes to facilitate more effective targeting of resources and more coherent administration of the various schemes.

The group targets savings of €30 million a year. The Department will consider, as part of the Estimates and budgetary process for 2010, the report's recommendations and decisions on all of the issues arising will be a matter for Government.

Senator Nicky McFadden

I thank Ms Faughnan and Ms O'Connor for that comprehensive report. We are very interested to hear how family resource centres are funded and how much it costs to run them. I am shocked that it costs €1.93 million to run the administration and headquarters of the Family Support Agency. Did the special group on public service numbers and expenditure programmes suggest any cost savings in that area? Where is the headquarters located? I understand it is closed.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

If you read the report of the special group on public service numbers and expenditure programmes you would know that is why we are here.

Senator Nicky McFadden

It would be helpful if the Deputy would speak through the Chair. Who are the members of the board? I commend the allocation of money for family mediation. How many centres exist around the country? I thank Ms Faughnan for her presentation. I apologise that there was such a poor attendance at the beginning of the presentation.

Deputy Margaret Conlon

I am not a member of this committee, but I am glad to be here. I thank Ms Faughnan for her presentation. I come from a county with family resource centres that work very well. There is great concern over what might happen as a result of the McCarthy report. The point I have made to people who have approached me about is that the McCarthy report is only a discussion document; it is nothing more. Any decisions to be made will be made in the context of discussions and deliberations with all the stakeholders. I commend the work of the family resource centres. In particular family mediation has been mentioned, which is very important. I believe that the Parenting Positively publication is a very important support for parents. Parenting is one job for which people get no training. Parents are handed a baby, sent home and off they go. They learn it as they go along. Perhaps when they have a second or third child they might have a better idea and know where they went wrong with the first. It is very important for parents to have support. Never was it more important than now when parents have so many other difficulties in their lives. That is all compounded by whatever is going on at home and children are in the middle of all this.

We may need to consider a better co-ordination of services. We should not have two, three, four or five different agencies doing the same work. Greater co-ordination and communication between groups, and greater delegation of roles and responsibilities lead to a more effective and efficient service. There are elements that could be run more efficiently and thereby provide a better service to the customers. I thank Ms Faughnan for her comprehensive outline of the very good and valuable work that is being done.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

I have met those working in the local family resource centre in Kells and the national representatives. When I met the met the national representatives of the Family Support Agency they were realistic. With the country's finances in their present state it would be highly negligent of the Government not to commission a report such as the report of the special group on public service numbers and expenditure programmes and not to analyse closely every line of expenditure from the Dáil down. People accept that. That does not mean that every recommendation of the special group on public service numbers and expenditure programmes will be implemented in full. Fianna Fáil is a family values party and always has been. I support that and I would be confident that aspect of the role of family resource centres — and they go considerably beyond that — will certainly be a priority of the Minister and I have discussed this with her. The other services provided are also in greater demand.

Senator Martin Brady

I thank the officials for their presentation. I have known Ms Faughnan and Ms O'Connor for some time and they are very experienced people. As Deputy Thomas Byrne has said, the recommendations in the report of the special group on public service numbers and expenditure programmes are just recommendations. It is up to the Government to evaluate them and do whatever is necessary and not to do what it believes is not necessary. In this case I believe we have made the point sufficiently that we believe it would be a disaster to go down this road. We have given all the reasons and there is no point in going into that. That has been made very clear here. It is up to, in particular, Government Members to get that message to the Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach that this service must be continued and not discontinued.

We all learn something every day. The representatives who came today presented their case very well in a very dignified and non-aggressive way. Some groups who come before the committee are convoluted and threaten they will not vote for us if we do this, that and the other. Nothing like that happened on this occasion. It was a pleasure. One could not get enough of dealing with these people and one would want to go back to them every time one sees them.

I compliment the members of the group on handling themselves so well and on the professional way in which they spoke. They did not come across as if they were talking down to us. We learn from meeting groups like this. I am the director of an unemployment centre myself. It provides similar services in Coolock. Ms Faughnan is aware of that. We learn something every day from talking to people. We ask them about the types of services they provide, how they do it and the problems they encounter. I have learned something from them and I thank them for that. I do not mean to be patronising or to go overboard. One might think they have asked me to say this, but they have not. I really mean what I am saying.

Ms Helen Faughnan

I wish to respond to Senator McFadden's points. The Family Support Agency, like all Government bodies, has been examining forms of rationalisation. The administration area was one of the first areas to be considered in that context. Our administrative costs are relatively small — they comprise just 5% of our overall budget. Staff and rental costs are included under that heading. Our headquarters are in an OPW building on Earlsfort Terrace in Dublin that also houses the main family mediation service for the Dublin area. The 12 members of the board come from a wide range of areas and have varied areas of expertise. One of the members of the board was nominated by the national forum of the Family Resource Centre as its representative. There is also a staff representative. I am the departmental representative on the board. The others members of the board have experience in counselling, research and family law. It is a hard-working board with a wide range of expertise, if I may so say myself. There are a number of sub-groups of the board. The Minister approves the various appointments to the board. The family mediation service is provided from 16 offices, 12 of which are part-time, throughout the country. Deputy Conlon spoke about the Parenting Positively booklets. The Family Support Agency gets more bang for its buck by linking up with other statutory and voluntary groups. It avails of the expertise of organisations like Barnardos, One Family and Treoir to produce various information booklets, such as the Parenting Positively booklet, to help families to meet their various needs. I think I have covered all the questions I was asked.

Senator Nicky McFadden

I asked my question because it costs €125,000 per annum to run each family resource centre. The resource centres are being asked to tighten their belts, but I suggest that everyone, including the Department and politicians, needs to do likewise. I appreciate Ms Faughnan's reply.

Chairman

I thank the officials for coming here today to outline the Department's response to the recommendation of the Special Group on Public Service Numbers and Expenditure Programmes that the family resource centre should be closed. I thank everybody for attending this meeting. I am sorry that there was not a greater turn-out of members of the committee, but it has been a long day. Deputies and Senators may be involved in other committees.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

Has the committee sent its best wishes to Deputy Enright?

Senator Martin Brady

Yes.

Chairman

It was the first item on the agenda.

Deputy Cyprian Brady

The Deputy can call in to her on the way home.

The joint committee adjourned at 1.25 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 25 November 2009.