This is a joint meeting with the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business chaired by my colleague, Deputy Cassidy.
Fair Trade: Presentation.
Deputy Penrose and I are chairing this meeting jointly. We are honoured and privileged to welcome the delegation. It is a unique occasion. I congratulate all those who made possible our visit to the church in Mullingar. I am pleased on behalf of Deputy Penrose and myself, in our respective roles as chairmen of the two joint committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas, to welcome the delegation, Mrs. Lesley Whiteside, Rev. Robert Whiteside, Bishop Roy Warke, Mrs. Ann Purdon and Mrs. Elizabeth Moore, and Mr. Oisín Coughlan from Christian Aid, who are here representing the parishioners and friends of the Church of Ireland parishes of Mullingar, Kilbixy and the surrounding areas.
We are looking forward to this presentation. It is a unique occasion in that Deputy Penrose, Deputy McGrath, Senator Glynn and I, who form part of the group of both committees represented, are all from the Westmeath constituency. It is a happy co-incidence that trade issues fall within the remit of my committee and family issues fall within the remit of the other committee, which Deputy Penrose has the honour to chair.
We, as the chairmen of both committees, are delighted that so many colleagues have turned out. I welcome the members of my committee and of the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business, particular my own colleagues, Deputy Paul McGrath and Senator Glynn from Westmeath, to share this unique occasion.
Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members who wish to make a declaration on any matter being discussed may now do so or at the beginning of his or her contribution. Members are also reminded that if there is a possibility of there being a conflict of interests, they should make a declaration of interests either now or at the start of their contribution. I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. While it is generally accepted that witnesses would have qualified privilege, the committee is not in a position to guarantee any level of privilege to witnesses appearing before it.
I join Deputy Cassidy in extending a sincere welcome to the delegation. We hoped this meeting would take place a little earlier but, as Mrs. Whiteside stated earlier, it is better late than never. It is important that the delegation gets an opportunity to present issues that it praised with us in Mullingar on that beautiful Monday morning some weeks ago.
The delegation provided an outline submission for which Deputy Cassidy and myself, the committee secretariat and the members are extremely grateful. Mrs. Whiteside will begin by summarising the submission. If other members of the delegation wish to make a submission, they should feel free to do so. Then my colleagues will raise a number of issues with the delegation, who will get an opportunity to respond. Deputy Cassidy and I may have some interventions to make.
Mrs. Lesley Whiteside
Although I feel I have been introduced, I am Lesley Whiteside, a parishioner of St. Etchen's Church, Killucan. A small group of people have come to make a presentation to the committee on behalf of the parishioners and friends of the Church of Ireland Parish of All Saints, Mullingar, St. Etchen's, Killucan, St. Bigseach's, Kilbixy and St. Nicholas, Almoritia in the Diocese of Meath and Kildare. To some extent we also represent the entire diocese and we bring the committee cordial greetings from our bishop, Rev. Dr. Richard Clarke. He is a strong supporter of trade justice and would like to have accompanied us today were it not for a prior engagement outside the country.
We are here because of the kind invitation of Deputies Penrose and Cassidy. During the fair trade fortnight in March, our group invited our three local Deputies to join us for fair trade coffee and fair trade biscuits in our parish hall in Mullingar and to receive a large number of fair trade pledges which we had collected. On that occasion Deputy Paul McGrath was unable to attend but we are grateful for his support for our campaign.
The campaign arose from our horror that one can buy a cup of cappuccino for about €2.50, of which the producer gets 3 cent, and we have come to believe that fair trade should be part of our Christian witness. Our parish already supports a link missionary in Kenya but we felt that by buying fair trade products and encouraging others to do so, we could do something in a small but regular way to bring justice and security to many in developing countries.
The pledges are a simple commitment to further the fair trade cause and to buy fair trade products. Incidentally, the senior classes of our parish national school were greatly interested in the campaign. Some of them were there the day we entertained our Deputies and would like to have been here today, but I have to say the logistics defeated me.
Our other speakers are the Right Rev. Roy Warke and the Rev. Robert Whiteside. The other delegates are Mrs. Elizabeth Moore and Mrs. Ann Purdon and we have asked Mr. Oisín Coughlan of Christian Aid to accompany us. The Church of Ireland is one of the churches which support Christian Aid and, in turn, Christian Aid acts as a resource for the church and has supplied the material for our campaign. With that introduction, I will hand over to Bishop Warke.
Bishop Roy Warke
As I look across the room, I feel I am almost back in Cork again. I reiterate what Mrs. Lesley Whiteside has said with regard to our gratitude to the committee for receiving this presentation. We know we are a small group and we are conscious of other interests that the members may have at this time. In a sense we are doubly grateful to them for sparing this time.
There are two points that we want to address. The first is the promotion of fair trade label products and the second is the need to increase parliamentary accountability for Ireland's trade policy. I will speak on the first issue and Rev. Robert Whiteside will speak on the second.
The committee would agree that Irish people have proved repeatedly how generous they are when Third World charities appeal for help to avert famine. One need only think of the recent telethon which raised €5 million to underline that point. However, the trouble is that few are really aware of ways, on an ongoing basis rather than highlighting only at one time in the year, in which they can assist ordinary people in Third World countries to have a better quality of life and to earn the sort of income which will keep poverty and the threat of famine at bay, and also restore to them a sense of dignity.
There is a simple and effective way of doing this, by making a point of buying products with the fair trade label. When we buy products such as these we guarantee a better deal for the producer. As our submission to the committee shows, this fair trade label certifies that producers have met a defined social and environmental standard. In return for that, they receive a fair price which enables them to cover their costs, pay a living wage and perhaps invest a little in their local community.
There are fair trade products available in Ireland. They include coffee, tea, bananas, chocolate, fruit juice. Their number is not large but it is growing. The fair trade label is supported by all the major Third World charities and by ICTU.
Our campaign to make the supermarkets in Mullingar aware of the fair trade label and to raise awareness of the movement for trade justice among the general public, has made considerable progress since it was launched last year. I suppose we gain an inspiration from Clonakilty, which was the first Irish town designated as a fair trade town because of its particular involvement.
We associate fair trade most readily with coffee. It is the second most valuable trade commodity - after oil - and it provides a living for 20 million farmers worldwide. At a time when the world market price for coffee - unlike that of oil - is at a historic low and often does not cover the cost of production, fair trade means that hundreds of thousands of small farmers, who might otherwise be forced off the land, are able to continue to make a living from producing quality coffee. It is good that more people are becoming aware of this way of helping Third World producers, but much more needs to be done and this is where our plea comes in.
We need the help of the Oireachtas Members, and members of these joint committees in particular. We make three brief recommendations, the first of which is that both joint committees request that all catering outlets in Leinster House should use only fair trade tea and coffee. I can guarantee that it is good coffee and tea. We are not asking for the use of something substandard.
The second is that both committees should write to Departments urging them to convert to fair trade tea and coffee, if they have not already done so, and asking them to let the committees know when they have changed over. The third is that both committees write to the State agencies which report to the Departments of Social and Family Affairs and Enterprise, Trade and Employment urging them to convert to fair trade catering products. We believe that if the leadership can come from bodies such as the committees, it will have an impact.
I will conclude by leaving the committee with a verbal picture of the River Jordan that was written over 3,000 years ago. This story comes from the Bible. As I am wearing a dog collar, I suppose it is appropriate that I should introduce that. A very famous military leader of the army in Syria developed leprosy and was told that he could be cured if he went to see a certain person in Israel. When he arrived at the home of this person, the man did not even come out to meet him. He simply sent out a message that he should wash in the Jordan seven times. This great leader said there were far better rivers in his own country and asked if he could not wash in them rather than in this muddy little river. He was about to leave, but his servant or lieutenant was wiser and told him that if the man had asked him to a great deed he would have done it but because he was asked to do something small he balked at it.
We are not asking the committee to do some great thing. We are asking it, in a sense, to wash in the Jordan seven times. We believe that if one starts on a small scale, like any river by the time it reaches the sea, it is surprising how it can have grown, and we believe that can happen with fair trade.
Rev. Robert Whiteside
I will take over now and talk about trade justice. Members of the committees do not need to be reminded of how important trade policy has been in guaranteeing Ireland's economic success, which happened over a comparatively short span of time. However, because it has happened like that, we have an extra obligation to help those who are still struggling with their poorer economies. Our Government has recognised that. It is good that it is committed to reducing global poverty. It is particularly good that in 2002 it explicitly declared its intention to work for coherence between trade and development co-operation policies.
Much of the focus of the media on issues such as this has been on the whole question of the aid budget. The members of the committees are aware that the Government is committed to having 0.7% of GNP contributed to aid in 2007.
Our group is more concerned about the immediate situation, about the injustice of existing trade rules for the poorer countries and with our country's commitment to changing them. Trade justice is about changing the rules which govern world trade. Up to now those rules have favoured the rich countries which have traditionally dominated trade flows and trade talks. Developing countries must be allowed more flexibility to choose trade policies which suit their stage of development and protect their vulnerable producers. Trade justice would help hundreds of millions of poor people around the world, three quarters of whom depend on agriculture for their livelihood, that is 900 million people in the world today out of 1.2 billion who live on less than US $1 per day.
One of the clichés which politicians, and probably church members, are guilty of using is that of ensuring a level playing field. The trouble with the present trade rules laid down by the WTO is that the level playing field of global free trade which it promotes is bound to favour the powerful economies of the developed world and to keep the world's poorest countries struggling indefinitely. It is even worse than that. The big players, the large economies, subsidise their products and then it is possible for them to undercut poorer countries which are trying to sell their goods at market prices, so that the supposedly level playing field is not level at all.
Let me quote Dr. Robert Aboagye-Mensah, the General Secretary of the Christian Council of Ghana who says: "International trade between my country and the West is like an antelope and a giraffe competing for food which is at the top of a tree. You can make the ground beneath their feet level but the contest will still not be fair." Everyone has a copy of the cartoon.
Countries such as Ghana and many others produce things we consume. They produce cocoa, chocolate, bananas. They cannot hope to get a fair deal without a change in trade rules. What help to do they and other such countries need? I mention three things. First, they need the right to assist their vulnerable people and traders through making special rules and conditions for them when they are in poor areas or having a bad time. Second, they need the right to sell their goods in rich countries. Their products are frequently kept out, while they are not allowed to stop rich countries selling in their markets. Ghana has had a particularly unhappy experience of that. Third, they need assistance to regulate the activities of large transnational corporations. All the successful economies that were once underdeveloped became prosperous through being allowed to trade their way forward. Examples are Taiwan, Singapore, countries in Asia that are now very prosperous. Surely, if we want to reduce global poverty, we must open the way for today's poorest countries to do the same.
What do we want the committees to do about it? It is an opportune time. The Government is currently finalising a new statement of national trade policy. We profoundly hope it will address global development and Ireland's future approach to WTO talks, specifically on changing trade rules. Thinking especially of the issue of accountability, our recommendations are that the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business should seek a joint sitting with the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs Sub-Committee on Development Co-operation regarding the publication of the national trade policy statement and that the committees should ask the Ministers of State with responsibility for trade and development to present the statement and to discuss it with the two committees; second, that the committee call on the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to publish an annual report on progress in implementing the national trade policy statement; third, that the joint sitting between the committee and the development co-operation sub-committee should occur annually to consider the progress report and discuss it with the two relevant Ministers.
Thank you very much for listening to us. Those are our thoughts. We would be glad to take any questions and to discuss them with the members of the committee.
Thank you. Regarding the last suggestion, I do not envisage any difficulty. You are pushing an open door. Deputy Penrose and I can agree on behalf of our respective committees to an annual meeting to continue what we have begun here today. So long as we chair these committees we will have great pleasure in acceding to that request.
Regarding the proposal that the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business should meet with the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs Sub-Committee on Development Co-operation, we will make the necessary request to put that in train.
On behalf of Deputy Penrose and myself, I thank Mr. Richard Manley, who has Westmeath connections and who worked with the enterprise and small business committee before moving to the social and family affairs committee, for the very efficient and courteous way he assembled us here today as clerk of the committee chaired by Deputy Penrose.
I also thank Mr. Manley for his help and his excellent work behind the scenes to ensure this meeting took place.
I welcome the group and thank them for their presentation. I admire the work that is being done and I am sure they must find it very frustrating when dealing with multinationals, large conglomerates and chain stores which are taking over family businesses in rural areas.
Will the group give the committee an insight into their dealings with companies such as Dunnes Stores and Tesco? Have they managed to meet them and discuss their policy on what they stock on the shelves? It is difficult for people to buy products if they must ask for them. I rarely shop, and recently when I went to the supermarket the proprietor inquired if my wife was ill. Have the group succeeded in talking to the multiples on their policies?
I am aware from family members that the Fair Trade organisation is very active in the US. Is that beginning to filter through? To what extent are the large multi-nationals prepared to go down the road of fair trade? It is stated in the written presentation that 6% of coffee sales by Bewleys are now fair trade. What does that mean in layman's terms? For example, does it mean that 6% of the product is fair trade, or that one can ask for a fair trade product and so on?
Rev. Whiteside
I will answer some of those points and then I will ask Mr. Oisín Coughlan to answer the others. I have become a shopper since I took up this cause. In Mullingar and in the areas where I shop, there has been a ready response to the issue. Several of the supermarkets - we are probably not allowed to mention names - have readily agreed to take fair trade on board and now fair trade tea, coffee, and bananas are available in Mullingar.
One of the great initiatives was taken by a company called chocaid.com which produces wonderful chocolate. It operates in County Cork and a percentage of the cost of each bar goes to Third World charities, such as Christian Aid. We have given the committee some chocolate today.
As Rev. Whiteside mentioned chocaid.com in Cork, what supermarkets in Mullingar are stocking fair trade products?
Rev. Whiteside
In Mullingar, Super Valu and Buckleys stock fair trade products, while Tesco and Marshalls sell fair trade bananas from the Dominican Republic.
When Deputy McGrath asked if we had talked to the multiples, he may have been thinking of talks at a higher level. None of us has spoken to those at the top of the company. Perhaps the representative from Christian Aid, Mr. Oisín Coughlan, will comment on his discussions with those companies.
Non-governmental development organisations, NGOs, co-ordinate our efforts on engagement with the supermarket chains in Ireland through the Fair Trade mark Ireland, which brings together Trócaire, Christian Aid, Oxfam and other NGOs and the Congress who support the promotion of the label in Ireland directly supported through financing and time. It has been a remarkable success in recent years, both in terms of the supermarkets that are willing to stock and list Fair Trade labelled products and having proper distribution of those products. A few years ago, it was only Superquinn who stocked them. Now they are available in Dunnes Stores, Super Valu and Centra and increasingly in Spar shops.
We engage with the company at headquarters level and they are happy to list the product as long as there is a demand for it. The local group can ask the local managers to stock it. However, unless it is listed on the supermarket product range, the supermarket cannot get it. Now it is possible for them to get it, so local pressure can come into play. Tesco is by far the largest supermarket chain in Ireland and they have been slower than the others, but that is now changing, which is good to know. Equally important is that Tesco has now launched its own brand range of Fair Trade coffee, which will mainstream the product even more because it will not be sitting on a side shelf and will be upfront on the supermarket space. That is already in place in my local Tesco.
I was asked how one can tell that Bewleys is selling 6% of fair trade coffee. At the retail level one can see the fair trade label, and if it does not have the label it is not a fair trade product. In Bewleys, one coffee in the main range of coffees is both organic and fair trade and it will bear the label. The major part of the 6% is from their catering sales, where one does not see the label. Bewleys catering supply only fair trade tea and coffee to a number of Government Departments, including Agriculture and Food, and one of the catering outlets in Leinster House. They supply only fair trade tea and coffee to Intel. When commercial enterprises, such as Intel, start serving only fair trade tea and coffee, it makes a big difference. It is Bewleys commercial catering accounts that are making up the 6% sales. One will not see the label very often unless the company begins to tell their staff and clients that they serve fair trade tea and coffee and many do that.
Bishop Warke
In the supermarket where we shop, we have got to know one of the managers on the floor and I think one may get an entrée in that way. His point is that the product must sell in order to be stocked. If people will not buy it, the supermarket will not stock it. We need to educate the ordinary man or woman on the street about this. I think there was a feeling that a fair trade product did not taste as good as others, but now there is a guarantee that it is every bit as good, if not better.
The rule of thumb in the multiples is that if 50% does not move in 21 days, the line is discontinued. The multiples will come before the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business during the third or fourth week of June as we are investigating their profits and we will certainly raise this issue with them and ask them for the percentage sales of fair trade products. We will continue that every year for the next three years or the remaining life of this Government.
I welcome the delegation. Their submission makes very interesting reading and it is interesting to listen to them. Clearly awareness among the general public is a significant problem. To be honest, I must confess to a certain ignorance before I came to this meeting, but I am now aware. That of the €2.50 for a cappuccino, the producer of the coffee gets only 3 cent says it all. There is a great need to create awareness. What steps have been taken and will be taken in the media - television, radio and print - to create awareness among consumers? This is a first and very important step. The chairmen of the joint committees have agreed to a request made in the delegation's recommendation. Could the delegation outline to me the proposals it has to heighten public awareness of this difficulty?
It is a dual strategy. There are groups like this one in Mullingar and a group in Clonakilty, which have generated local and national publicity seeking to promote fair trade labour products in supermarkets and local stores. That has a real effect. At national level there is co-ordination with other NGOs. Advertising space costs more money than we have available so the strategy is based on free publicity. We are very lucky that the Irish fair trade network which runs the mark in Ireland has a first-class director who has secured a lot of print coverage over the past two or three years. This is evidenced through the consumer testing we have carried out. In February 2002 a representative sample was shown the logo as part of our consumer survey. They were asked if they recognised it and if it meant anything to them. In 2002, 16% claimed to recognise the logo and in March 2003 that figure had risen to 26%. That means we are going in the right direction. When prompted with a list of possible descriptions of the logo, 25% accurately said that it meant a better deal for Third World producers, up from around 16% the previous year.
We do not know how long we can get the level of free media coverage that we have enjoyed up to now. During fair trade fortnight in March, a number of newspapers agreed to run free advertisements to promote the label. If we could run national television advertising it would be even more effective, but that is beyond our scope at the moment.
Does Mr. Coughlan recommend that the joint meeting should take place at the start of the fortnightly campaign every year so it might receive television coverage?
That could work very well.
Mrs. Whiteside
On the local issue, we are not at all happy that it seems to be simply a Church of Ireland initiative. I carefully mentioned both parishioners and friends as we had songs of praise in Saint Etchen's, which was attended by the community and the two local parish priests. Quite a number of their parishioners signed the pledges. Perhaps it is due to lack of time and energy - I am not sure - but we have not been able to draw together a group which is truly cross community and which wants to work with it. I do not think we have asked the right people yet, but we have not given up and it would be much better if was not seen as a thing that peculiar Church of Ireland people do in the community. That is a distinct problem. As we have our four local representatives here, perhaps we might get there.
The delegation has made a good start.
I welcome the delegation and it is nice to see Bishop Warke - we miss him in Cork. It seems to me that this is all about marketing and I am glad that Mrs. Whiteside raised her point last. It is not just about good Protestants doing good deeds. It is more than that and it needs to be more than that if it is to be successful. I wonder if the delegation has had any offers of help. There are people out there prepared to give up two years of their lives to work in the Third World. If people with the same talent worked here in a marketing capacity for this cause, they could probably do as good a job as they could do in the Third World by promoting fair trade products.
So many people in Ireland want to contribute to the development of the Third World, whether they see that as contributing to the individual, to communities, to a water system and so on. If there was an enhanced awareness of the availability of products of this nature in Ireland, I think people would willingly take to it. If they were stuffing themselves with calories and chocolate, at least they would feel they were doing good for someone elsewhere. If the delegation was to approach people with a marketing capacity, would they contribute their time? It may not be as attractive and fulfilling as work in the Third World, but I feel it would be as beneficial.
I also welcome the group, particularly Bishop Warke, so that I can stress that there is a Cork as well as a Westmeath connection.
There was only a point between us the last time and it was on the Westmeath side.
We shall meet again. One of the people behind the initiative in Clonakilty, Jennifer Sleeman, is a very good friend of mine. The initiative in Clonakilty is something that could be followed in every town in Ireland, a point the delegation is highlighting today.
We live in what we are told is a globalised world and globalisation is something that lacks proper definition. We all have different definitions for it, for example identifying with people throughout the world and reaching common cause with them. Globalisation as defined in the world media is strictly about trade. Free trade is defined as open access to all markets and that is to the advantage of countries that are already developed and already have the infrastructure in place to take advantage of the increase in global trade. It is to the disadvantage of countries that do not have that infrastructure and do not have the means of access.
Ireland has been described as one of the countries that has benefited most from globalisation and we owe most of our recent prosperity to that. However, it is a very transient thing. The investment that we received over a ten year period could just as easily disappear in a further ten years. In the time that we have increased our prosperity, there are other countries where prosperity has decreased. This is because of the trading system that exists internationally, because of how the World Trade Organisation is structured, and because there has not been an international political move towards introducing rules on fair trade and justice about which the delegation spoke.
This presentation has been about acting locally and thinking globally. The delegation wants individual communities to use its own consumer power to buy products that will assist people in developing countries. How does it see wider political change occurring, what policies and legislation does it expect this Legislature to put in place that would help international trade? What influence does it think the Government should play in the EU and in the UN to make sure that there are international fair trade rules? Ultimately, for the developing world to develop, we need both sides of the equation to add up. People need to be informed at a local level so that they can buy products that benefit the people that are producing those products. International rules are required to make sure that those people are not caught in the web of poverty in which they are currently trapped, because of the unfair manner in which trade is currently conducted.
I welcome the delegation and thank it for the wonderful work it is doing. Since we are surrounded by people from Westmeath, I should acknowledge that the Westmeath football team had a wonderful Sunday last week. Indeed, it is 49 years since there was such a Sunday for Westmeath. It was a good day to be from the county.
From small acorns big oaks grow, and I have a few suggestions for the delegation. I am from a teaching background and the second level curriculum has a section on social geography, which deals with the developing world. Perhaps the delegation's initiative in Westmeath might next year incorporate visits to the local secondary schools to inform the pupils about fair trade, as there is currently very little information about it in the social geography component of the curriculum. Such visits would greatly enhance the appreciation among second level students of what fair trade is about.
For a retailer like Tesco, it would cost very little extra in advertising to market the fact that fair trade products - bananas from the developing world, for example - are available in its stores. Since minimal extra cost is involved, I am sure that those supermarkets which stock fair trade products would mention this availability in their national advertising campaigns.
My third suggestion is something about which I feel strongly. The Christian churches have far more power then politicians because they have a moral authority that we do not have. It always amazes me that the churches do not use this moral authority much more. I know that President George Bush plays an important part in heavily subsidising coffee production in the Unites States. If the money spent on simply promoting the idea of a war in Iraq were spent instead on the developing world, there would probably be no need for fair trade. Yet I read in many American newspapers that President Bush commanded a huge Christian vote and is himself a practising Christian. Since we are talking globally, it is worth mentioning that Christianity has a role to play across the world in what we do and in what we allow our leaders to do. That is vital.
I am aware that there is a fair trade fortnight but, even though I am a regular church-goer, I have never heard a homily on fair trade. Unless the delegation, or some of its associates, pushes for a fair trade Sunday in the Christian churches, I am very unlikely to hear a homily about it. Perhaps the delegation has underestimated how powerful it can be as a small group in focusing on what fair trade is about.
As politicians, the most important thing we will ever do is probably to give people in the developing world the fair break of which they are currently and likely to remain deprived. I am aware that some of the foodstuffs produced in Ireland are heavily subsidised through the EU and I would defend that as somebody representing Wexford farmers. However, we do not produce coffee or bananas, for example.
I would ask the delegation to use their Christian contacts, to use the second level schools, and to ask the large supermarkets which stock the produce to use their television advertising campaigns to help promote fair trade.
The Deputies' contributions incorporated a mixture of comments, suggestions and questions. Perhaps the delegation could distil all that and give us its reply.
On the marketing volunteers question, the fair trade movement in Ireland does rely to a large extent on volunteers and can also draw on a lot of expertise. Ultimately, however, nice designs and messages are of limited value unless we have the resources to actually place those messages in the media.
The suggestion that the supermarkets themselves might advertise their fair trade stock is one we would be interested in pursuing. Certainly in Britain, where the fair trade campaign is more advanced, supermarkets that are stocking a critical mass of fair trade products are beginning to advertise this fact. For example, the Co-op supermarket makes an issue of mentioning the availability of fair trade produce in its stores. With supermarkets like Tesco beginning to move into own brand fair trade products, perhaps they will begin to trade on that to some degree. This area is certainly something we can continue to push.
Regarding fair trade labelling, there is a module on the fair trade website, www.fairtrade.ie, for the second level civic, political and social education programme, CPSE. This is an interactive module that teachers can download for use with their classes. It was launched at this year’s fair trade fortnight and we hope that more and more teachers will continue to utilise it through the next school year.
Regarding next year's fair trade fortnight, we can certainly push with our constituency and with Trócaire, which is on the board of the fair trade network in Ireland, the idea of talking to parishes around the country about the possibility of having a homily that deals explicitly with fair trade.
On the broader question of international trade rules and the political will and capacity to change them, that is where the primary advocacy focus of non-governmental development organisations, NGOs, now rests. Previously, in the late 1990s, the focus was on debt. Just under a year ago, some of my colleagues and I made a presentation to the Joint Committee on Enterprise and Small Business, in advance of the Cancún meeting of trade ministers as part of the World Trade Organisation talks. The Cancún meeting, which I attended as part of the Government delegation, demonstrated that, for all our lobbying and notwithstanding the sympathy of the Department of Foreign Affairs and the development co-operation division, we had not achieved much influence on the Government's negotiating position.
Around Europe, the EU position, despite the rhetoric, did not include much practical help for developing countries. That is changing slightly now, perhaps because the Cancún meeting collapsed and the EU had to regroup and rethink its strategy. The EU has had to be more realistic about what it can do and what it should be enabling poor countries to do.
Concretely, we have made some suggestions for the Joint Committees on Social and Family Affairs and Enterprise and Small Business. More generally, in the current lull in trade talks at an international level, our focus has been on process, in particular the role of parliaments at both national and international level. This is because we felt that, at Cancún, too much power rested with one man, the Trade Commissioner, Mr. Pascal Lamy, to determine what the EU should do in negotiations. This did not work and it did not seem to be particularly in the interests of development. Our contention now is that the more parliaments are involved, the more Governments are accountable to parliaments and the more accountable the Trade Commissioner is to Governments, the more likely we are to get trade rules that are actually pro-development and pro-poor.
For the first time since the enlargement of the EU, the development ministers from around Europe are meeting in Dublin next Tuesday, 1 June under the chairmanship of the Minister of State with responsibility for overseas development and human rights, Deputy Kitt. We have proposed to them that Commissioner Lamy should brief them twice a year at the General Affairs Council of the European Union on trade talks. He has briefed the Foreign Ministers and the trade ministers in the past but he does not talk to development ministers, despite the ongoing Doha round of trade talks. Therefore we, as an alliance of NGOs, have proposed to the development ministers that they should decide next Tuesday to ask Commissioner Lamy to come to their next meeting and to account to them for the conduct and content of trade negotiations. If members of the joint committees feel so disposed, perhaps they might write to the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, endorsing this proposal.
On a national level, our position is clear from our submission. I am not sure what direct role the Oireachtas has had in the formulation of the national trade policy statement. I am a member of the Trade Advisory Forum, as is Senator Mary White, and we have seen a draft of the statement, which is close to finalisation. It has a substantial chapter on development and we feel that the joint committees can have an important role to play in debating that chapter, on its completion, and holding the Government to account on the matter. That would be a very positive contribution to our cause on the political level question, as raised by Deputy Boyle.
I welcome the delegation and thank it for its work, which continues the fine tradition of the Church of Ireland. I wish to commend the delegation's initiative and hope that my colleagues and I can support it in every way possible.
The delegation's submission is reasonable, well studied and well thought out and it has tremendous implications. For example, 20 million farmers depend on coffee alone. All candidates standing for the European election should come out in support of this campaign. I will ask them on the doorsteps to support it and I will vote only for those who support the fair trade agreement.
And candidates at local level.
I will urge all candidates standing for election on 11 June 2004 to come out in support of this excellent campaign. I am glad to be at the Westmeath Politburo with all the Deputies and Senators.
We have led the way. The three political parties in Westmeath are totally united behind the fair trade movement.
Everybody is impressed. Support for the products of the Third World is fine, but one has to differentiate between oppressive regimes that do not support their farmers and countries that respect their people. Only such countries should be supported by the fair trade movement.
I have called for a complete boycott of all Israeli goods because of the atrocities and genocide in the Gaza strip against the Palestinian people. I am calling for the withdrawal of the special position that Israel enjoys in the European Union and I call on all Irish citizens to boycott all Israeli goods until Israel recognises the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination. I will be calling for that tomorrow in the Seanad. I feel very strongly about what is happening in the Gaza strip - the murder of Palestinian citizens is unacceptable.
Trade is a powerful weapon that must be used. Fair trade is a powerful weapon, but it should apply to countries where there is fair play.
I too welcome Bishop Warke, Rev. Whiteside and ladies and gentlemen. This solid presentation was a good beginning. I support it in every way. The great challenge facing the world today is the elimination of hunger. Poverty is when people have not enough food to eat.
Speakers referred to the problem in Ghana and the hoped for contribution from the European Union. While I am not very clear on the political situation in Ghana, is it the case as in most countries that were colonised, where few have much and too many have nothing? It would be difficult to influence the situation but the delegation is making a good start. It is vital to get food to the people who need it. It is pitiful to see on television the fine human beings totally and utterly destroyed because they have not enough to eat. That is the great challenge that faces the world.
We should be aware because it is not too long ago since we experienced the Famine, when 1 million died on the roadside. With affluence, we have forgotten much. Many people have little or no idea of what happened, yet there are people alive who would remember people who went through that time.
I am totally supportive of the work of the delegation. It is a great idea. Awareness is, of course, one of the problems and the role of the schools is vital in the campaign. It amazes me how aware some young people are and it is very easy to get them interested. The young are amazing people when they have a cause. I wish the delegation well.
I also welcome the group and I apologise for being absent during their presentation. I appreciate what the group is trying to achieve and it is a worthy cause.
Free trade and fair trade are different. I visited the United States some years ago as a member of an agriculture delegation. We were shown clearly how farmers were allowed to use hormones, growth promoters and other methods that would damage the possibility of fairness or free trade. Sometimes people get excited by the WTO talks and the European Union is digging its heels in because it is trying to safeguard the agricultural industry. As a farmer, I know that has not happened because farmers are going out of business. When one considers that five agriculture colleges have closed, one can see the problem.
Fair trade is important because at least those who are working in a proper structure should be supported. A few major operators are hijacking the industry. A self-made enterprise in my area is being put under extraordinary pressure by multimillionaires who will do anything to get rid of it.
I congratulate the group. It is extremely important that different church groups appear before the Joint Committee. I support the idea of the group visiting schools and even third level colleges. This would give idealistic young people an opportunity to become involved. From time to time I go to second level schools to talk about politics in the broader sense and that is worthwhile.
I extend a very warm welcome to the delegation. Bishop Warke spent a very pleasant time in Cork when bishop of Cloyne and Ross. I missed the presentation but I examined the briefing material. I pay tribute to the work of the delegation and their approach to fair trade. There is no doubt that highlighting and developing awareness is very important. I am delighted the delegation is appearing before co-hosting committees because it is relevant to both committees.
Unless we in the developed world feel the pain, the people in the developing world will not benefit. We must make sacrifices in areas. After a great deal of discussion and repetition of the arguments, Members may feel their job is done, but we need to continue to highlight the needs of the Third Word. We have opportunities to allow the voices of people in the Third World to be heard. Unless we keep reinforcing the message, whether at local, national or international level, what we want to happen will not happen. We must take action to achieve what is in our heart.
I thank the delegation for its presentation. It has made recommendations which we will consider to see how we can move them forward.
I also wish to join in complimenting the delegation on an excellent presentation. The recommendations as outlined are achievable. The majority of catering outlets in the House currently use fair trade tea and coffee, but we can check it out to ensure that other Departments are also notified of the recommendation.
Initially, I thought one had to be from Westmeath to attend today's meeting. I am glad to see, however, that the Rev. Roberts spent five or six years in Waterford also. The fair trade movement is active in Waterford where there is a fair trade shop. The people working there, and those involved in fair trade elsewhere, are very active. They have involved local schools during the fair trade fortnight promotion. The delegation made a valid point in stating that it would be beneficial to involve more schools in the fair trade organisation's work. The delegation is pushing at an open door as far as the public is concerned. It is of paramount importance to create awareness by getting the fair trade message through.
In addition to the shops and other outlets that have been mentioned in advertising, perhaps some development agencies, such as Goal and Trócaire, could also become involved in highlighting the fair trade fortnight.
A number of observations and comments have been made on that matter. This is the first time ever that both committees have held a joint meeting, so it is a unique occasion. I have never seen so many members contribute to a debate and obviously it has touched everybody's hearts. It has aroused great interest among members of both committees. You have made a significant start to your campaign which, hopefully, will gain added impetus as a result.
Mrs. Whiteside
We are most grateful for the welcome and support we have received from the committees. It is more than we could possibly have hoped for. How many of our concrete suggestions do the Co-Chairpersons feel they can realistically address?
We will discuss this at our next session to see how we can make progress. Personally, I think we can address all the suggestions. I do not see anything unrealistic in being able to achieve that. We would like to make this an annual joint meeting during fair trade fortnight in order to assist you in any way we can. I wish to thank Deputy Penrose and his committee for arranging this joint session, following our meeting in Mullingar. We have had a valuable and memorable meeting of both committees with the delegation today.
I thank the witnesses and the committee members for their contributions. I now invite the delegation to visit Leinster House. Our clerk has kindly agreed to guide the delegation on that tour. Following that, we invite you for refreshments. We have been enriched by your visit because this is at the heart of what we are on earth to do - to make life a better place for future generations.
I concur with my colleague, Deputy Cassidy. I thank my colleagues for participating in the joint meeting and I also thank the delegation whose members provided detailed answers to, and observations on, the questions that were posed. They have provoked a considerable level of interest in both committees and they should now build upon that. We will ensure that the relevant Ministers are made aware of the matters that have been raised at today's meeting. We will try to pursue the points raised by the delegation in a number of fora.
Both committees will also meet to decide how we can advance the various recommendations that have been put forward. We will do so in a planned manner, rather than in an ad hoc fashion. We want to pursue that agenda to achieve the objectives the delegation outlined for us. We are grateful to the delegation’s members for having given us so much of their time in order to attend this meeting. I hope they have enjoyed the experience and we look forward to seeing them again next year during fair trade fortnight 2005. Alternatively, we may organise the joint meeting in advance of fair trade fortnight to promote more publicity and public awareness of the event.
The delegation will now have an opportunity to visit both Houses of the Oireachtas with the clerk. We have one matter of business to conclude before adjourning. I thank the delegation's members for their attendance.
Mrs. Whiteside
Thank you, Co-Chairman.
When the delegation has withdrawn, we will go into private session to conclude with an item of housekeeping.
The joint committee went into private session at 3.46 p.m. and adjourned at 3.47 p.m.