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Joint Committee on Social Protection, Community and Rural Development and the Islands debate -
Wednesday, 9 Nov 2022

Operation of the Social Welfare Appeals Office: Department of Social Protection

Members are required to participate in the meeting remotely from within the precincts of the Leinster House complex only. I ask that members and witnesses please turn off all mobile phones as they interfere with the broadcasting equipment. I ask members of the committee who are participating remotely to please use the raise hand icon on Microsoft Teams if they wish to contribute.

This meeting has been convened to discuss the operation of the appeals office and the regulations covering the operation of the same. The Social Welfare Appeals Office was established to provide an independent appeals service to people who are unhappy with the decision of deciding officers of the Department of Social Protection regarding their entitlement to a social welfare payment or support. As Members of the Oireachtas, we all deal with the office on a daily basis. We have always found it and its staff to be both independent and fair. We all believe that it is a vital cog in our social welfare system. On many occasions, access to an oral hearing has led to the righting of a wrong by the Department. In many cases, these wrongs arose through no fault on the part of the Department but were due to difficulties in applicants accurately presenting their case in written form for a desktop consideration. Nowhere is this more the case than in the area of disability. Denying any individual a claim at appeal stage on the basis of a desktop evaluation where there is a difference of interpretation between the Department and the applicant with regard to medical evidence should be a very rare exception.

When the committee considered SI 523 of 2020, which facilitated remote hearings by the appeals office, it expected to see an increase in the accessibility of oral hearings, which would have resulted in an increase in percentage terms and in a reduction in the number of appeals rejected after a desktop evaluation alone. In fact, the committee has seen the exact opposite, which is of considerable concern to its members and to the Oireachtas more generally. Over the past two years, despite an increase of nearly 10% in favourable outcomes at oral appeal stage, there has been a 500% reduction in the overall number of oral hearings, notwithstanding the use of remote technology by the appeals office, which should have increased the accessibility and convenience of such hearings. In this regard, I welcome to the meeting senior officials from the Department of Social Protection: Mr. John McKeon, the Secretary General; and Ms Joan Gordon, the chief appeals officer.

Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references that may be made to other persons in evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or of those who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if a witness's statement is potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, the witness will be directed to discontinue such remarks. It is imperative that witnesses comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call on Mr. McKeon to commence his opening statement.

Mr. John McKeon

I thank the Chair and members for inviting us here today to discuss the operation of the appeals office and the regulations covering its operation. I am joined by Ms Gordon, who the committee also invited to attend. We will both be pleased to take questions from committee members.

As members will be aware, decisions regarding a person’s application for benefits or assistance payments are taken by deciding officers appointed by the Minister. These deciding officers mostly operate at clerical officer and, in some cases, executive officer and higher executive officer level. Their role is to apply the conditions specified in legislation to assess whether a person is eligible for the benefit or assistance sought. In doing this, their primary aim and that of the Department is to ensure that a person who has an entitlement to a benefit or assistance payment can receive and access that entitlement as quickly as possible. In some cases, they will have access to an expert opinion of a medical assessor with respect to a person’s capacity for work or requirement for care or to a Department inspector with respect to other aspects of conditionality including, for example, whether the person’s means or income is within the thresholds specified for the particular scheme. I should emphasise that, in accordance with legislation, deciding officers act independently in the exercise of their statutory functions and cannot be directed as to the decision that they are required to take.

Given that, as I have said, our primary interest is to ensure that a person who is entitled to a benefit can access that benefit, the Department also provides review and appeal mechanisms. A person who believes that a deciding officer has erred in a decision can seek a review of that decision from the relevant scheme area. In addition, appeals can be submitted directly to a separate appeals office, which is provided for in legislation and headed by the chief appeals officer.

Before turning to the legislative framework governing the operation of the appeals office, it may interest committee members to know that, in any given year, less than 1% of deciding officer decisions are appealed, with about 55% of these having a favourable outcome. In other words, just over 0.5% of all claim decisions are revised when appealed. It should also be noted that about 20% to 25% of those claims which are revised are revised by the Department prior to a formal appeal assessment. This is typically because additional information submitted by the appellant at the appeal stage is provided to the deciding officer who, taking this information into account, revises his or her original decision. This trend of additional information being provided at appeal stage is particularly prevalent in medical schemes.

Turning to the legislative framework which governs the operation of the appeals office, the genesis of the current arrangements is found in the report of the Commission on Social Welfare published in 1986. As part of its brief, this commission considered whether it was necessary to establish a clearer separation between the appeals function as it then operated, whereby appeals were administered and determined by officers associated with each scheme area, and the function of the Department generally. The commission noted that how the appeals function then operated might give rise to a perception that the Minister was in a position to influence the decisions of appeals officers. It stated that this was not the case but that, to deal with this perception, it might be appropriate to somehow distance the appeals function from the appearance of ministerial control.

It proposed that this could be achieved through the establishment of a separate office. This would be required to produce an annual report and be assigned dedicated staff to fulfil the appeals functions previously carried out by staff in each individual scheme area. It further proposed that, where these staff rejected an appeal, they should provide reasons for this rejection and that the appeals function itself should be located in offices physically separate from those of the Department. It also suggested that people whose claim was not granted by a deciding officer should be advised of the right to appeal, that the availability of oral hearings should be advised to appellants and that responsibility for supplementary welfare allowance appeals should transfer from the health service to the Department. In putting forward these proposals, it also stressed that, because of the nature of the services provided by the Department, the appeals system should be “simple, informal and speedy” or, in other words, that it should continue as an administrative appeals system.

These proposals were largely given effect via the Social Welfare Act 1990, which established the appeals process as a separate office within the Department by providing for: the function and role of a chief appeals officer, to be appointed by the Minister; the functions and roles of appeals officers, also to be appointed by the Minister; and the production of an annual report on the activities of the chief appeals officer and appeals officers, to be laid before the houses of the Oireachtas each year.

The Act also provided that the procedures to be followed on appeals would be prescribed in regulations. The current set of regulations date back to 1998. A consolidated version of these has been provided to the committee for convenience. In essence, these regulations provide for: the management responsibility of the chief appeals officer; procedures relating to appeal submissions and notifications and information be provided by appellants and the Department; the determination of appeals on a summary basis; the discretionary use of oral hearings and the procedures for such hearings; the decisions of appeals officers, including reasons for decisions where a decision is not in favour of the appellant; and the method of sending documents.

Taking the regulations and the governing Act together, it is the case that, as with deciding officers, appeals officers act independently in taking decisions on appeals cases and, subject to a right of review by an appeals officer where new facts are provided or the chief appeals officer in other cases and a further appeal on a point of law to the courts, a decision of an appeals officer is, under the Act, "final and conclusive".

In addition, it is important to note that appeals officers are not confined to the grounds on which the decision of the original deciding officer was based but can consider new information and decide the appeal as if the question of entitlement to a benefit or assistance was being decided for the first time. This is known as a de novo decision or appeals process. The advantage of a de novo approach is that it allows appellants to submit new information and focuses the appeals process on taking a fresh look at the question of the person’s entitlement on its own merits, rather than on examining and then overturning or confirming the position determined by the original deciding officer. By way of information, compared with deciding officers, most appeals officers are higher civil servants, appointed at assistant principal level, and receive significant training in the legislation and regulations governing entitlement to social welfare benefits and assistance, including updates arising from court determinations. An externally accredited level 8 programme, specifically developed for the social welfare appeals office and delivered in conjunction with the National College of Ireland, was introduced in recent years and is being rolled out to all appeals officers, more than half of whom have already completed the programme.

Given the elapse of time since 1998 and developments in the intervening period, a number of changes have been made to the governing regulations and legislation. Specifically, regulations were introduced providing for responsibility for appeals in respect of supplementary welfare allowance to be integrated into the function in 2011 and, in 2020, regulations were introduced, in response to Covid-19 restrictions, providing that oral hearings could take place by remote means. It may interest committee members to know that remote hearings have proven to be an effective and efficient means to conduct hearings and the data show that appeal outcomes are, overall, the same as in-person hearings. Nevertheless, while appeals officers have continued to utilise remote hearings, they have, since restrictions were relaxed, also offered and held in-person hearings where there is a valid reason to do so.

As committee members will be aware, the work of the Department, and by extension the appeals office, has expanded significantly over the past 20 years, in particular the past ten years. Not only has the volume of work increased but the overall complexity of schemes has also increased, in particular with regard to the assessment of work capacity or care requirements relating to illness, disability or infirmity. The Department and the appeals office have responded to these developments in a number of ways, including the training and development programmes already referenced, but also by significantly increasing the staffing complement of the appeals office. The number of appeals officers has increased from approximately 16 in 1998 to 40 today.

Given concerns expressed at this committee and at the Committee of Public Accounts regarding appeals processing times, we also conducted an internal review of appeals operations in 2019, with these operations also being subject to a review by the Comptroller and Auditor General in 2021. In addition, the appeals office has been preparing for some time to upgrade and modernise its IT system, a task which, of its nature, requires a review of operating processes. The internal review concluded that the regulations need to be updated to, among other things, provide for appeals officers to have sight of medical opinions and specify more clearly the timelines for processing appeals. In addition, it concluded that the Department, working with the appeals office, should proceed with the new IT system, both to enable the progress of appeals to be tracked and a database of appeals decisions to be maintained, streamline the review and appeals process to eliminate duplication of work, and make some technical updates to the regulations. The review also raised the question of whether the practice of the Department making submissions to the appeals office in respect of appeals added any value, given that the appeals office was empowered to determine appeals on a de novo basis.

The Comptroller and Auditor General report made a number of recommendations, including that written guidelines for appeals officers should be prepared that clearly establish the circumstances that usually result in an oral hearing being held and that this information should be published on the appeals office website. It also recommended that the Department and the appeals office should progress as a matter of priority the appeals modernisation project, or in other words a new IT system. It also recommended that the Department should carry out periodic reviews of successfully appealed cases where no new or additional material information was provided in order that the Department would be assisted in learning from cases determined by appeals officers. It also recommended that the appeals office should consider establishing a quality assurance system to aid consistency in decision-making.

Arising from these reviews and the ongoing work on the IT system, an updated set of regulations is in draft format to give effect to a number of measures. These include providing for some specific management functions of the chief appeals officer, including the application of effective systems of quality assurance. The measures also enable the chief appeals officer to delegate certain duties to deputy chief appeals officers. This is to free up the chief appeals officer to devote more time to the management of the enlarged office. A legislative amendment was enacted by the Oireachtas in 2021 providing for the appointment of more than one deputy chief appeals officer. The measures also increase, from 21 days to 60 days and up to 180 days in certain circumstances, the time afforded to an appellant to make an appeal. The measures also seek expressly to provide for clients to have the right to request an oral hearing and to be given a reason if an appeals officer determines that an oral hearing is not necessary. At present this is not the case. The measures also require the Department either to review and revise the original decision or furnish all documentation relevant to an appeal to the appeals office within three weeks of request. At present the Department is not explicitly required to review decisions on appeal, nor is there a deadline by which the Department must respond. The measures also reinforce the de novo approach to determining appeals as provided for in the primary legislation. The measures also remove the requirement on deciding officers to prepare a statement to the appeals office setting out the extent to which the facts and contentions of the appellant are admitted or disputed. The measures also require appeals officers to have access and regard to the opinion of a qualified medical assessor in cases relating to a person’s capacity for work or care requirements. The measures also require appeals officers to set out reasons for their decisions in all cases. At present, this only applies where a decision is negative or unfavourable. The measures also provide a role for the chief appeals officer, based on experience of appeal cases, in providing guidance and advice to deciding officers on the correct interpretation of legislative provisions. This is similar to how other regulatory and appellate authorities issue guidance to practitioners. The measures also provide for all appeal decisions to be notified within 15 working days to the parties affected by the decisions. The measures also provide for the mechanism by which appeals decisions will be given effect, to be agreed between the chief appeals officer and the Secretary General of the Department.

These are all measures to provide additional rights to appellants and impose a greater responsibility on the appeals office and the Department to meet publicly committed and legislatively required timelines. They also provide for additional management oversight and reporting responsibility for the chief appeals officer and improve feedback to the Department consistent with the recommendations of the Comptroller and Auditor General. These draft regulations are with the Minister for her consideration. We hope, subject to her approval, to be in a position to publish them and, subject then to operational arrangements being completed, to have them signed into effect in the first part of 2023. We would welcome any comments and observations from the committee.

We hope this information has addressed the points of concern to committee members. We also wish to stress that, in developing these draft regulations, the Department, working with the chief appeals officer, is concerned to preserve the administrative nature of the appeals process to ensure it does not become overly legalised or unnecessarily adversarial and to ensure that, as far as possible and in the interests of clients, it is simple, informal and speedy, as emphasised by the Commission on Social Welfare. The chief appeals officer and I will be pleased to take any questions members may have.

I thank Mr. McKeon for his presentation. I also thank Mr. McKeon and his officials for the way they facilitate the operation of this committee on a regular basis. The members of the committee would like to have sight of this regulation in draft form before it is given final consideration by the Minister. We have the mechanism to consider it after it is signed by the Minister but we would rather have that engagement in advance. The Department might take that into consideration.

The main reason the committee has asked Mr. McKeon and Ms Gordon to come before us is that the committee has been presented with information that it has been proposed that appeals officers must seek approval from managers to hold a physical oral hearing, even if it is requested by the applicant. We are afraid this could lead to a chilling effect on such vital hearings taking place and it is something to which this committee would be strongly opposed. Our concerns are backed up by the statistics showing a reduction in the overall number of oral hearings. There has been a 500% reduction in the percentage of oral hearings that have taken place in the past two years and yet there has been an increase in positive decisions from the oral hearings. As I said at the outset, our concerns are particularly around disability payments. In the case of the disability allowance alone and the contrast between 2019 and 2020, there has been an 18% reduction in successful applications over that time.

That is of concern to us. Will the Department confirm that the appeals officer has full discretion in determining whether an oral hearing will take place? It is and has always been the case that it is the appeals officer who reviews the file who makes a decision and that it is ultimately up to that officer to make a decision as to whether a hearing is held orally. Will the witnesses confirm that will still be the case after this new statutory instrument is implemented? While remote oral hearings are to be offered, will the Department confirm that oral hearings in person will remain the default, particularly when requested by the claimant? Will the witnesses outline the specific steps being taken to increase the percentage of oral hearings, in line with the intention set out in SI 523 of 2020?

Mr. John McKeon

I will ask the chief appeals officer to speak in a moment. The Chair made reference to the statistics with regard to appeals and a reduction in positive outcomes for appeals related to disability. It is important to note that one should not necessarily look at the numbers at the first level. One of the reasons for this reduction has nothing at all to do with whether appeals are heard orally or conducted in writing. If you look at the number of appeals made in respect of illness and disability schemes in 2021 and 2022 in comparison with 2019, you will see there has been a significant reduction in the number of appeals. The number of those claims that are appealed has reduced from approximately 6% to just under 3%. One of the reasons for this is that the Department has done a lot of work with disability advocacy groups to improve our forms. We completely redesigned the forms in areas such as domiciliary care allowance, carer's payments and disability payments. We also provide a lot more information in the claim decision. These measures have resulted in more claims being granted on the first decision that would previously have been rejected. As a consequence, the number of appeals has reduced. As a result of better quality decisions being made, one would expect that the percentage of successful appeals would reduce. That reduction is not being driven by the nature of the appeal or how appeals are processed but by the way in which decisions are now being taken. That has been the most significant impact. That is worthy of note. I will ask the chief appeals officer to comment on the issue of oral hearings.

Ms Joan Gordon

I will address the first question first and then give some context. Under the existing regulations, the discretion to hold an oral hearing or a summary decision lies wholly with the appeals officer assigned to the case. That remains the case under the new draft regulations. Last year, when we were easing away from Covid restrictions, appeals officers were asked to consult with their line managers, although merely to consult, and to discuss the circumstances in which they might need to have an in-person hearing. That was purely a management role. It was designed to gather some information as to the circumstances in which in-person hearings or online hearings were most appropriate. The draft regulations reflect that. Appeals officers are asked to consult with the deputy chief appeals officer. However, I confirm that, in the legislation, the discretion lies with the appeals officer.

Mr. John McKeon

We are very keen to protect that. In fact, the draft regulations give the appellant the right to request an oral hearing for the first time and impose an obligation on appeals officers to provide reasons when they do not believe an oral hearing is necessary. At the moment, an appellant does not have a right to request an oral hearing and, if they do, they have no right to be given an understanding as to why one was not held. It is my understanding that, in practice, where a person requests an oral hearing, it is very rare for that not to be granted. The chief appeals officer might confirm that. However, we want to enshrine in the regulations that there is a right to apply for an oral hearing and that, if the appeals officer determines that one should not be granted, the appellant has the right to be told the reason. I confirm and reassure the committee that we have no intention of withdrawing from oral hearings. In fact, we want to strengthen people's rights to such hearings.

Having said that, it is important to recognise something. There are over 30 case studies in the appeals office report. If you read about those appeals decided summarily and those involving oral hearings, the evidence shows that appeals that appeals officers deal with on a summary basis are dealt with just as professionally. In some cases, cases involving an oral hearing ended up in an unfavourable outcome while similar cases appealed on a summary basis resulted in a favourable outcome. That is down to the circumstances of each case. However, I reassure the committee that what we are trying to do with the new regulations is to actually enshrine the right to an oral hearing and to particularly address that issue because we are very aware that these kinds of things are being said. Part of the new regulations is included specifically to address that point.

The Chair also asked whether the committee could have prior sight of the regulations. That is not normally the case, as the Chair will know.

I accept that.

Mr. John McKeon

The Oireachtas has delegated the power to make regulations to the Minister. The regulations do not actually exist until the Minister signs them. There may be some procedural difficulties. The Chair will know better than I the difficulties associated with Standing Orders. In this case, I do not believe the Department or the Minister would have any particular issues but I am conscious of the wider legislative construct whereby the Oireachtas delegates authority to the Minister, the Minister signs the regulations and then submits them. Subject to that caveat, I do not believe the Minister or the Department would have a concern. We just need to watch our Ps and Qs on this and not to step outside normal process. That is all. The other thing to note is that we have not seen the text of the regulations but the note sets them out honestly and objectively. There is nothing in the regulations that is not in the note we have provided to the Oireachtas today. We deliberately included that bit of detail so that, when committee members see the regulations, they will not see anything we have not mentioned.

I thank the witnesses for their responses to the issues. It is a very welcome development that it is being enshrined in regulations that an appellant can seek an oral hearing and can have a justification for any refusal as of right.

I have two brief supplementary questions. Will an in-person oral hearing remain the default? I have absolutely no difficulty with appeals officers seeking a remote oral hearing if the appellant wishes to have one and is prepared to accept it. However, the default should remain an in-person meeting because, as I have said, the vast majority of cases that Members deal with relate to the broad spectrum of disability and it is very hard for some applicants to properly articulate their arguments orally over Zoom. A physical meeting should be the default.

An issue that has been presented to the committee is that the requirement for appeals officers to flag with management that they wish to hold a physical oral hearing is causing a chilling effect within the appeals office. We do not want to see that happen because it is important that, where they are appropriate, oral hearings are facilitated on every possible occasion. Will the Department give consideration to both of those points?

Mr. John McKeon

We certainly will. We will take what the Chair has said as true. We do not question it. However, to be honest, it is the first I have heard of appeals officers feeling a chilling effect. I attended and spoke at an appeals officer conference recently. We spoke about the draft regulations and what was happening. I invited questions and there was not a single question about this issue. Neither has it been raised with me afterwards in conversation with appeals officers or the chief appeals officer. I am not aware that is the case but I take it that somebody has said that to the Chair.

On the oral hearings, it is important, for the reasons mentioned, that the discretion is left with the appeals officer and that oral hearings should be done in the most efficient and effective way possible. One of the learnings we got out of Covid is that many things that we thought were unthinkable were not only thinkable but actually doable, such as remote and blended working. That has proven to be the case in appeals as well, where remote hearings have proven effective where they have been held. Therefore, we should not rule remote hearings out or suggest that remote hearings are better or worse than in-person hearings. Certainly, in any case where a client requests an in-person hearing, generally our approach would be to honour that but if we do not want to and believe it is not necessary, we provide very solid and sound reasons it is not necessary. The experience shows, and the chief appeals officer commented, that the remote hearings that have been held have proven just as effective as in-person hearings. However, we have gone back to in-person hearings and will hold in-person hearings. If the client wants one, we would not insist on a remote hearing just for the sake of the technology, to put it that way.

I thank Mr. McKeon for that reassurance. The difficulty is that quite a lot of people who are within the social welfare system are not used to talking to a computer. Absolutely, all of us are very comfortable doing that. His reassurance is important.

Ms Joan Gordon

On online hearings, I am surprised that it has been said that it is causing a chilling effect. I think there has been misinterpretation of what been asked. I am rather surprised because that has not been shared.

Online hearings have proved extremely flexible, obviously during Covid, and afterwards. It has led to improved processing times and the stats show that, which is good. There is always a balance to be struck between that efficiency and what people need. I can assure the committee that where a person tells us they are not comfortable with doing it online, they do not want to do it, they do not have the technology or they prefer an in-person hearing where an appeals officer has determined that an oral hearing is appropriate or required, that person will then be facilitated with an in-person hearing.

In addition, in practice, the reaction that we get from panels to the online hearings is that they are very welcome. It has been very flexible and avoids people having to travel. It also avoids, in some cases, appeals officers having to travel from locations if they are the most qualified person to deal with the issue in hand. We also bring appellants through a process and what we call a “dummy run” of the online process before the actual hearing to ensure everything works connectivity-wise and all the rest of it. I take the comments on board.

I thank the witnesses for coming in this morning. I apologise for missing some of the opening statement as I was in the Chamber. I have a couple of questions.

In the opening statement, a loss of experienced staff and a high turnover of appeals officers was mentioned. Could our witnesses speak a little more on that and why that is happening? Also perhaps they could advise - I know there are some figures there, but just so we are clear - how many full-time appeals officers are there? Are there enough given the high level of appeals that are received every year and the length of time that appeals are taking as well?

On the new appeals system, the appeals modernisation project, will there be an in-person element in relation to oral hearings when that new system is up and running in 2023? We have received correspondence that tells us the opposite to what the witnesses are telling us, which is, of course, concerning. I would suggest that some reassurance be given to their staff and all those in their section because whether it is a miscommunication or whatever it is, we have received correspondence that it is the opposite to what they are telling us. I think that reassurance would be welcome and perhaps that is something they could undertake to do within their section.

Deputy Marc Ó Cathasaigh took the Chair.

Mr. John McKeon

On staff turnover, I do not think I raised that as an issue in the opening statement.

I apologise. It must have been in the annual report submitted by the chief appeals officer.

Mr. John McKeon

That is an issue in the Department generally. The Department has age profile that has – I do not have the numbers with me – proportionately fewer staff under 30 and more staff over 50. The issue is staff are retiring. That takes time. It takes a new appeals officer a period of time. They are the most expert in the regulations and the legislation and to get that familiarity with the law and regulations take some time. We do not tend to have vacancies the appeals office; we fill them as quickly as we can. Nevertheless, a new appeals officer will not run at the same pace as an appeals officer who has being the job for ten, 15 or 20 years. That is just the nature of it across the Department generally when it comes to that type of staff profile and people are retiring. It is a challenge we have everywhere across the public service and many private employers would have it as well. It is just an observation.

On the other issue the Deputy raised about the correspondence received, as I said, I certainly attended the appeals officer conference and I did not get it. We have dealt with these issues. We are engaging with the staff unions on the new regulations as well and that is going through the normal staff engagement process. I would expect any issues to come up as part of that. If the committee can share, or perhaps it cannot, the correspondence it received. We can certainly look at it, although I do not know what the process is there. However, certainly we will examine it. Honestly, my experience in talking to the appeals officers at the conference was general acceptance that the regulations where we were going was the right direction to go. Having said that, I understand perhaps sometimes people are loathe to call out the Secretary General, which one can imagine. We will certainly look into it.

Ms Joan Gordon

I will pick up on that point. I absolutely will reassure appeals officers at the next available opportunity that all that is required now under the current position is to have a discussion with their line manager. That is purely a management role. I would expect that if the Secretary General were to ask me to discuss something with him, I would do that because he is Secretary General.

On the staffing of the office, roughly, just for ease of numbers, at any time there are 80 or more staff in the office. That breakdown is probably 50:50 between administrative staff and appeals officers. At the moment, there are 40 appeals officers that are on a full-time equivalent of 40.2. We have lost quite a lot of our experienced appeals officers over a number of years. I do not have all of the figures to hand, but my recollection is that 12 left the office, mainly on retirement, in 2021 and I think the figure is two so far this year. However, in years prior to that, many people left mainly on retirement, but not exclusively. A small number left on promotion.

The Deputy asked whether there will be an in-person element of the IT system. The system is an IT system to manage the flow of files; it is largely paper based at the moment. That in itself does not facilitate in-person hearings. It will not stop it, obviously, but the decision to have in-person hearings is coming from the legislative requirement.

I just want to remind members who might be participating online that if they wish put questions, they might use the raise hand function on MS Teams.

I will put a couple of questions for the moment, if that is okay. I just want to echo what the Chair said with regard to in-person oral hearings. I can see how the temptation would be to move to remote hearings as it is handier for everybody to have the kettle nearby, etc. However, we have to be conscious of that technological barrier. For some appellants, it will be absolutely more suitable for them to avail of a remote hearing and they will want that option. However, we should be aware and conscious of there perhaps being a bias towards remote hearings because they will be easier to put together. We have all become used to MS Teams. However, I am not sure, as the Chair outlined, that everybody who is availing of the appeals system will be equally comfortable with that.

On the oral hearings from an Irish language perspective, we hear the availability of services through the Irish language is not always as consistent as we like. Is there a facility within the Department if somebody wants to avail of oral hearings trí mheán na Gaeilge? Do we have somebody who has the sufficient level of Gaeilge to be able to facilitate that request?

One of the goals of the Department is to have appeals heard and dealt with within 15 working days. What is the status of that and how many appeals fall outside of that current goal?

Following on from that, our guests' opening statement referred to the ICT system upgrade being at tender stage. Is there a timeline for delivering that? There is a long list of recommendations and points to which the Department wants to get within its updated set of regulations. Where are we with that? It looks to be a fine list but how long is it expected to take before the recommendations in the list are implemented and in place?

Mr. John McKeon

On the Irish language, tá náire orm nach bhfuil an Ghaeilge á labhairt fós agam. Having said that, we provide translation facilities for people who want to conduct their affairs through Irish where the officer with whom they are dealing is not a strong Irish speaker, and we will engage people from the Irish translation services to sit in and so on. We have just completed an engagement and innovation project with our staff. We have staff working on engagement and innovation projects at a staff level throughout the Department. They have just carried out a survey to try to strengthen our response in Irish and 900 staff identified themselves as people who are more than competent and capable of dealing with clients entirely through Irish, so that is something we will follow up on.

With regard to the oral hearings and in-person versus remote hearings, we fully take on board the Vice Chairman's concerns that not everybody is capable or competent or, even if they were, would want to conduct their affairs through a video link or whatever, and we will always facilitate people with in-person hearings. Other companies and businesses talk about “digital by design” or “digital by default”. Generally, the line we use in the Department - it is not just a stock phrase - is “digital by desire”, meaning people should use digital when they want to but they should always have access to post, telephone and in-person communications, and we are trying to maintain that ethos within the Department.

As for timelines, the chief appeals officer will comment in a moment. There is always a balance between doing things remotely and otherwise. One way the remote hearings have helped is that we have been able to get more appeals completed more quickly, which is to the benefit of most people, and that is always a balance.

On the ICT systems, the tender is out at the moment and we expect a response imminently. It will depend on the tender response, but my experience tends to suggest that once we appoint a supplier, it will take between nine and 12 months, although we will see when we get the responses from the suppliers.

On the other timelines we were talking about in the draft regulations, such as extending the timeframe from three weeks to 60 days for somebody to make an appeal and up to 180 days, and giving the Department three weeks to revert and so on, we would hope that, if the regulations are approved by the Minister, we should be able to set up those kinds of operational procedures in about a three-month period. There will be a fair bit of pressure on the Department. My main concern about the changes in the appeals process and regulations has come not from the appeals office but from departmental staff having to respond within three weeks and asking how they can do that, but I am reasonably confident we can address those issues within a three- to four-month period once the regulations have been signed.

Ms Joan Gordon

I will not reiterate what the Secretary General said. I think the Vice Chairman's reference to the 15 days for processing times is from the new regulations, although he might correct me if I am wrong.

It was mentioned in the Department's opening statement, which referred to providing “for all appeal decisions to be notified to the parties affected by the decisions within 15 working days.”

Ms Joan Gordon

That means that when the appeals officer has made a determination, the decision will issue within 15 working days. I would love if we could have all appeals addressed within 15 working days but, unfortunately, that will not happen. Generally, the appeal processing times improved in 2020 and 2021 compared with previous years, but there has been a slight deterioration in processing times to date in 2022 when compared with 2021. The processing time for all appeals at the end of September was 15 weeks and the equivalent for 2021 was 12.9 weeks. It is 25.4 weeks for oral hearings and it exceeded 25 weeks also in 2021. For summary decisions, it was 15 weeks, while the equivalent in 2021 was 13.9 weeks.

On the Irish language issue, our guests will understand people's frustration. Irish is the first language of the State, yet people are often forced to do their business through English. Mr. McKeon said that 900 of the Department’s staff have been identified as capable and competent in Irish. What yardstick is being used for that?

Mr. John McKeon

These staff have declared themselves to be comfortable and confident. We have not set, for example, a Gaeleagras test or a level 5 or level 6 test. We have asked people to self-identify.

It is a discussion that has been had many times at Comhchoiste na Gaeilge, na Gaeltachta agus Phobal Labhartha na Gaeilge as to how we could use the common European framework, for example.

Mr. John McKeon

I accept that, and something like that would be appropriate if we were to move forward on this basis. I would consider my level of Irish to be quite weak, but somebody else with a similar level might think he or she is quite strong, so we have to be careful when putting staff in front of a client. Even so, it is positive that so many staff have identified and put forward a willingness to do business through Gaeilge.

I welcome our guests. I agree with previous speakers in regard to in-person oral hearings, which are so important for many people I deal with. As public representatives, we have attended those hearings in the past and found them to be useful in supporting our constituents and dealing with them. Will that continue to be part of the new regulations, whereby public representatives will be allowed to attend? It is important that there be no limitations on public representatives attending due to the new regulations.

Mr. McKeon talked about the outcomes of the oral hearings and having a lot more information provided. Will he comment on why a decision such as that was made? He said that the Department is doing dealings with various groups, but why are we now looking at providing that additional information? In the past, unfortunately, it was limited information and we often had to revert to the appeals office, which was nonetheless helpful. Why is such a decision being made now and will Mr. McKeon comment on the decision itself?

Mr. John McKeon

What I was referring to in respect of the information was that we have done a great deal of work within the Department with advocates for people with disabilities, carers and so on to redesign a lot of our application forms and change the information that is provided with the application forms, and that was done in response to representations those advocacy groups made and that were made at meetings of the previous iteration of this committee. All that has happened in recent years and we are seeing the consequences whereby the number of appeals that are coming from disability and caring schemes is still higher than the number that applies to, say, jobseekers' payments but it has reduced. It is too early to say whether there is a cause and effect, but there is certainly an association between, on the one hand, the time when we introduced the new forms and the additional information and, on the other hand, an improvement in the quality of the claims received and of the decisions taken.

Appeals officers, under the current regulations, are required to give a reason when they do not award an appeal but are not required to do so when they award one. From a departmental perspective, I am keen to get a reason for when appeals officers award an appeal because that will educate the Department on what we are getting wrong at deciding officer stage. If an appeals officer were to explain to us the reason he or she granted an appeal, that would be useful. We do get that feedback through the chief appeals officer, but if it were brought down to the level of each decision, that would help.

Ms Gordon might answer the other question.

Ms Joan Gordon

In terms of the attendance at a hearing, the current regulations set out that an appellant can be accompanied by a family member or a friend and they may also be represented at the hearing by any member of the family or by any person. There are no plans to change that. That is fine and it is the system going forward as well in the context of the revised regulations.

Is the Senator happy with that? Are there any supplementary questions?

No, thank you Vice Chair.

In that case, I will bring in Deputy Collins.

I thank Ms Gordon and Mr. McKeon for coming in. I have a number of questions. Mr. McKeon mentioned in his contribution that when the appeals office hires civil servants, they are appointed at assistant principal level. They receive significant training in the legislation and regulations governing entitlement to social welfare benefits and assistance, including updates arising from court determinations, etc. My information is that approximately 70% of appeals officers over the last couple of years are new hires. The experience and the knowledge of social welfare appeals officers built up over the years is really important. I worked in An Post and saw that in human resources and areas like that. Older work mates had a huge wealth of knowledge as to what people were and were not entitled to and that base diminishes when new people come in, particularly when they make up to about 70% of the staff. Is that what we are talking about in terms of the last number of years? Are we saying that up to 70% are new social welfare appeals officers? I would be a bit concerned about that because it can have a knock-on effect on people's ability to make decisions.

The other question I have is for my own clarification. Is Mr. McKeon definitely saying that on a request from a certain appellant for an oral hearing, an appeals officer will grant that oral hearing? Do they have to go their line manager to get clearance for that?

This question relates to a parliamentary question I put to the Minister back in July. In response to this, the Minister stated:

Under the current Regulations, appeals relating to the ‘medical’ conditionality of the illness, disability and caring schemes are determined by Appeals Officers who are not medically qualified even though the decision as to whether or not a person satisfies these scheme conditions is a subjective judgement based on medical evidence.

The revised Regulations introduce a provision that any appeal relating to a person’s capacity to work or requirement for care shall be determined either by an Appeals Officer who is a registered medical practitioner or, if not a registered practitioner, that the Appeals Officer will be obliged to seek the opinion of a medical assessor.  

How many, if any, social welfare appeals officers would be a registered medical practitioner?

Was the conference Mr. McKeon mentioned held in person or remotely?

Mr. John McKeon

I thank the Deputy. That conference was held in-person. Over the past couple of yours, many of the Department's conferences have been on Microsoft Teams, Webex or whatever. This was probably one of the first in-person conferences we have had since the restrictions were lifted.

There has been a high degree of churn - I will ask the chief appeals officer to confirm the exact number - and that is of concern to us. There is very little we can do. One cannot deny people the right to retire and when they retire they have to be replaced, which will take time. Having said that, there is still a continuity there. There are still people in the appeals office and we are still providing what I think is pretty decent training. I mentioned the level 8 programme with the National College of Ireland and so on. The staff members who are moving into those positions are experienced staff from around the Department anyway. They come in with a certain amount of expertise, so I would be reasonably comfortable on that point. Obviously, it would be preferable if the churn was not as high as it was but that is the world we live in.

On the medical assessor point, the regulations provide that if a person happens to be a medical assessor, they do not have to look for a separate medical opinion. That is another way of saying it. At this point in time, none of the appeals officers to my knowledge is medically qualified, but that is not to say that might not be the case in the future. That is something we would obviously keep under review but the process going forward will be that where a person on appeal submits new medical information, the appeals officer will be required to get an opinion on that medical information rather than relying on their own lay knowledge. That is fair and reasonable and I do not think there is any particular problem with that. Obviously, if they happened to be a medical professional, one would imagine they would have the competence to give that opinion themselves. We have roughly 35 medical doctors working in the Department and we would not want to preclude any of them from becoming an appeals officer either. I will put it that way. That is an enabling provision if that was to happen. There are no plans to appoint medical assessors in the immediate future but that is not to say it could not or should not happen.

Ms Gordon might pick up on the other question. I apologise to the Deputy as I did not get to write all her questions down.

Ms Joan Gordon

The Deputy asked if the turnover of staff was at 70%. I cannot say if it is as high as 70% but it definitely has been quite high over the past number of years. As I said earlier, since the start of 2021, 14 appeals officers have left the office. Many of these were among our most experienced officers. Many have been replaced but it takes some time, as the Secretary General said, for new officers to quickly get up to speed. Obviously, this level of turnover means there is an unavoidable impact on the output but we cherish our training. The support appeals officers give to one another is quite good and strong. We spend a lot of time on mentoring. There is a two-day programme that every appeals officer must engage with before they decide appeals, and there is an ongoing training and mentoring programme. We mentioned earlier that there is an accredited level 8 programme as well. I cannot say if the figure is as high as 70% but it may well be.

Does Deputy Collins have any supplementary questions?

I do. To follow up, the Secretary General said in his opening statement, "Nevertheless, while appeals officers have continued to utilise remote hearings, they have, since restrictions were relaxed, also offered and held in-person hearings where there is a valid reason to do so." Is it not on the request of the appellant and that if they ask for an oral hearing, they will get one?

Mr. John McKeon

The legislation and the regulations provide that the appeals officer has the discretion to determine the form of hearing. While a person can request it, I do not think it would be correct that just because a person requested it, they would always in 100% of cases get one. The practice is to facilitate one on request when at all possible. We need to be careful about having absolute rules in this space and that an oral hearing is always held irrespective and irregardless because in some cases it is not inconceivable that there would be a very straightforward case that does not require an oral hearing where a person, for example, clearly does not have the contributions required to access a scheme. They are entitled to appeal but if an appeals officer can very clearly see they do not have the contributions and the person insists on an oral hearing, that is a waste of half a day. The discretion has to be given to the appeals officer. Ms Gordon will confirm this but I am not aware of any case where somebody who requested an in-person hearing was not granted one. We need to be careful not to put in absolute rules. That is all.

To follow up on that, if a social welfare appeals officer decides an oral hearing should take place, do they have to go to their line manager to get clearance for that or is it their decision?

Ms Joan Gordon

Earlier it was said that appeals officers are required to get permission to have an oral hearing. I can confirm that is not the case.

Appeals officers are asked to consult with their line manager in all cases where they consider whether an oral hearing is going to happen as to how it is going to happen and whether it will be in person or online. The discretion to grant an oral hearing or to decide an appeal on a summary basis is, from the legislation, at the discretion of the appeals officer. The consultation or discussion that is envisaged is purely to do with management and oversight. Things have changed since Covid and since we resumed normal business. We want to collect information on the circumstances that might give rise to an oral hearing, be it in person or online. That is purely a management oversight role, which I do not think anyone has a difficulty with.

Management cannot overrule the social welfare appeals officer's decision to have an oral hearing or summary.

Ms Joan Gordon

No, because the discretion is with the appeals officer.

Thank you very much.

As no other members wish to contribute, that concludes our consideration of this matter. I thank the officials from the Department for their constructive and positive engagement with this committee. We will shortly discuss our next consideration of this matter in private session. For the moment, go raibh míle maith agaibh go léir.

The joint committee went into private session at 10.32 a.m. and adjourned at 11.03 a.m. sine die.
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