Joint Committee on Social Protection, Community and Rural Development and the Islands debate

Roll-out and Delivery of Broadband in Rural Areas: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

Members who are participating in the meeting are required to do so from within the Leinster House precincts only. I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phone are switched off or on silent mode.

I welcome the witnesses, who are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

The committee will now consider the roll-out and delivery of broadband in rural areas. At the recent historic meeting of the joint committee on oileán Árainn Mhór, it was demonstrated how broadband technology can bring parliamentary democracy closer to the people. The delivery of high-speed broadband has yet to be achieved on our offshore islands, but it has the potential to transform so many of the key issues the committee encountered on that day. During our hearings, we were presented with a set of unique challenges that are faced by our island communities.

We also heard about solutions which, if adopted, can not only address the challenges on the islands but can help support isolated communities across Ireland and across the world. These solutions are in large part driven by the adoption of broadband on our islands and in our rural areas.

To use health as an example, our island communities are not only using high-speed broadband connectivity to facilitate virtual consultations, remote monitoring of patients, community-based health activity and nutritional strategies for individuals, they are to the fore in using robots as emergency responders and drones to deliver medical supplies as well as trialling artificial intelligence to help with the scheduling of patient appointments. Clare Island will soon trial remote telepresence to determine whether technology can help combat loneliness in our island population. This will only be made possible by continuous robust connections, not just to our islands but to all those living in remote rural areas. The committee is in full support of the national broadband plan and would like to hear a full report on its swift roll-out and delivery and, more important, any steps that can be taken by the Government or the Oireachtas to expedite the completion of what is the first programme of its kind in the world.

From the Department of Rural and Community Development, I welcome: Mr. Fintan O'Brien, assistant secretary for rural development and regional affairs; and Mr. Brendan Whelan, principal officer in the regional development and innovation unit. From the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, I welcome: Mr. Fergal Mulligan, director of the digital connectivity office; Ms Jacqueline Barron from NBP operations; Mr. Kevin O'Donoghue, principal officer for the national broadband plan; and Mr. Gavin Brown, deployment lead. From National Broadband Ireland, NBI, I welcome: Mr. Peter Hendrick, infrastructure chief executive officer; Ms Tara Collins, chief marketing officer; and Mr. T.J. Malone, deployment chief executive officer. They are all very welcome.

I invite Mr. O'Brien to make his opening statement.

Mr. Fintan O'Brien

I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it this morning. With me today is my colleague Mr. Brendan Whelan, principal officer in the regional development and innovation unit. I welcome the opportunity to update the committee on the work of the Department in the context of the importance that Our Rural Future assigns to issues of digital connectivity for rural communities. Our Rural Future is the Government’s policy for rural development for the period 2021 to 2025. It sets out a vision for a thriving rural Ireland which is integral to our national, economic, social and environmental well-being and which is built on the interdependence of urban and rural areas. The policy sets out a range of actions to be delivered over its lifetime, with each action assigned to a lead Government Department.

Within this context, the Department of Rural and Community Development is involved in rolling out a number of important initiatives which may be of interest to committee members today. These include: supporting the promotion and availability of remote working spaces in hubs throughout the country; enabling the availability of high-speed broadband connectivity through the broadband connection points; supporting communities in using digital services to provide local activities in rural areas that might otherwise not be available or accessible; supporting the national network of broadband officers in local authorities to facilitate the delivery of high-speed broadband and promoting its benefits; and providing support for innovative digital projects. Through this work and in partnership with our colleagues in the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications and in local authorities, we are aiming to contribute to the adoption of digital technologies and to closing the digital divide between rural and urban areas.

I will provide a brief overview of the programmes we run or are involved in, which I hope will provide insight into the role of the Department. Regarding connected hubs, while there was a move towards blended and flexible working pre-pandemic, the timeline was greatly accelerated in 2020 because of Covid-19. Our Rural Future recognises the opportunity for rural rejuvenation that remote working presents and commits to establishing a comprehensive and integrated national network of 400 remote working hubs by 2025. In 2021, connectedhubs.ie was launched, providing a shared online booking and payments platform for member hubs and their users. In parallel, the Department has invested significantly to support the establishment, improvement and sustainability of hubs through the range of schemes which make up the Department's rural development investment programme. There are currently 330 remote and co-working facilities across the country, including 58 broadband connection points, BCPs, onboarded to the connected hubs platform, which means we are well on track to achieving our target of 400 remote working hubs by 2025. In addition to facilitating online bookings and payments, connectedhubs.ie is also a platform for collecting and disseminating information, including the types of hubs available in Ireland.

On the national hubs strategy, the Department’s initial priority has been on establishing the connected hubs network, putting the necessary infrastructure in place and achieving the required initial critical mass. Following strong progress on the establishment and awareness-raising phase of the project, our focus has now shifted to the next stage of development. To this end, the Department, in conjunction with colleagues from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, is leading on the formulation of a national hubs strategy, which will set out the future direction for the national network of hubs incorporating enterprise, remote working and community services at hubs across the country. One of the overall objectives is to ensure the strategic development and long-term sustainability of Ireland’s existing hub infrastructure. Key to this is close consultation with hub sector stakeholders and other Departments and State agencies. The strategy will help inform future decisions and enable a coherent approach to planning and investment in the hub sector.

Within the national broadband plan, broadband connection points were developed to provide on-site connectivity for community use at publicly accessible premises in rural areas with poor broadband availability. There are almost 300 of these community-based hubs distributed around the country. They are located in rural and isolated areas including on a number of offshore islands, and are based in community halls, GAA clubs and tourist attractions that are centres of community life. The goal of the BCPs is that community facilities become empowered through this connectivity, to further support their communities and to embrace new opportunities.

There are a number of pilot programmes currently under way, or recently completed, that explore the potential for BCPs to provide additional public benefit. Over the past three years, BCPs have hosted initiatives such as film festivals, music and art lessons and coding and digital skills classes. Funding has been awarded to successful programmes to continue past pilot stage. One example of a successful programme for digital skills is OurKidsCode. This programme provides creative computing family after-school clubs aimed at helping families enjoy and understand computing, while building parents’ confidence to discover technology alongside their children.

Between 2018 and 2021, the Department provided €2 million under the digital innovation programme to trial innovative technologies across rural Ireland. These projects established the viability and efficacy of a number of technologies, including in the areas of rural tourism and public safety. Some of these projects that members may be aware of include the air quality monitoring project in Trim and the smart ring buoy sensor project.

One of the key elements of supporting greater levels of rural digital connectivity over recent years has been the establishment of the broadband officer, BBO, role in each of the 31 local authorities. This role was established as part of the mobile phone and broadband task force, with co-funding provided by the Department. The officers act as the single point of contact for engagement with telecoms operators, assist with roll-out of the NBP and other telecoms projects and create awareness of, and stimulate demand for, broadband services. They are also centrally involved in the establishment and maintenance of broadband connection points. In early 2023, the Department agreed a new role profile for the BBOs. This new role profile ensures the officers are employed full-time in their role and sets out the importance of their role in implementing new and innovative technologies in their local authority area. In short, the BBOs offer an essential connection between the Government and the local communities we serve.

WiFi4EU was a European Commission project that provided funding for free-to-use Wi-Fi in public areas, such as town squares, parks and libraries. Over 1,000 free Wi-Fi hotspots were installed across 27 local authority areas. The Department committed to match the funding provided by the EU in order to add more Wi-Fi hotspots, effectively doubling the value of the investment. The Department has provided total funding of over €1 million to support this initiative. The WiFi4EU scheme commenced in 2018 and concluded in 2023. A new scheme has not been announced by the Commission at this stage.

The mobile phone and broadband task force plays an important role in the delivery of mobile phone and broadband coverage across the country and is managed in collaboration with our colleagues in the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. The initial iteration of the task force addressed many of the telecommunications challenges identified at its inception. The remaining challenges are more complex but no less important, require a high level of collaboration and in many cases have a longer timeframe for delivery.

The task force currently has four main focus areas, which are: improving mobile phone coverage in rural areas; examining issues around planning permissions and licensing for establishing and sharing telecoms infrastructure; the use of public assets for telecoms purposes; and improving the quality and availability of information for consumers of telecoms services and products. All of these issues are closely linked to the delivery of connectivity in rural and remote areas.

I hope I have provided a useful overview of the work of the Department and the role we play in supporting digital connectivity in rural areas. I am happy to take any questions that members of the committee may have.

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

I thank the committee for the opportunity to provide it with an update on the progress in delivering on the targets set out under Ireland's digital connectivity strategy. I am joined by Mr. O'Donoghue, Mr. Brown and Ms Barron.

This strategy is a commitment that by 2028, every household and business in Ireland will have access to a gigabit broadband service, that by 2030, 5G coverage will be available to all populated areas and that by the close of this year, all schools and broadband connection points, BCPs, will have access to high-speed broadband. The importance of high-speed, quality and reliable broadband is now more evident than ever. After the pandemic, Ireland has, for example, seen a significant transition to hybrid working and remote education.

In recent years, commercial investment in full fibre broadband has consistently increased. These commercial investments, together with the State-backed investment across rural Ireland, will see gigabit broadband rolled out across the State and to all citizens. Recent ComReg reports show a 33% year-on-year increase in full fibre subscriptions, with over 600,000 premises now connected to a gigabit network.

The largest roll-out is underway by Eir, which is rolling out a full fibre connection to the premise network to up to 1.9 million premises and to date, we understand has passed over 1.1 million homes. SIRO has recently reached a milestone of enabling over 555,000 premises for full fibre and is on track to reach 700,000 premises by 2026 through a €1 billion investment. Virgin Media recently announced a €200 million investment plan to upgrade its cable network to bring full fibre to up to 1 million premises over the next three years and recently passed more than 250,000 premises. Eir's 5G network roll-out continues to expand, with coverage to over 70% of the population in all 26 counties. Vodafone's 5G network is currently live in selected areas across 26 counties in Ireland. Three Ireland's 5G network has 85% population coverage. In quarter 4 of 2022, there were 988,000 5G mobile subscriptions, representing a 152% year-on-year increase, and almost 18% of all mobile subscriptions.

The State's investment in NBI is a key enabler for achieving the goals outlined in the digital connectivity strategy. This commitment from Government of up to €2.7 billion will ensure that the future of gigabit connectivity is not just envisaged but is realised well in advance of the target of 2030 set down by the European Commission under its Digital Decade policy.

With the establishment of the digital connectivity office in the Department, the Government is ensuring that every citizen has access to adequate broadband and voice services. This extends to bringing forward proposals under the recently enacted regulations around universal service for broadband and voice, and working with stakeholders through the mobile phone and broadband task force to ensure barriers to investment are removed, where possible.

While NBI will provide full details of its progress to the committee, we understand from its latest reporting to the Department that it has now passed more than 200,000 premises, which is three months ahead of their revised annual target of 185,000. NBI believes it will pass over 300,000 premises by the end of 2024, which will represent over 50% of the national roll-out. NBI also reports that 60,000 premises have now been connected. To date, the level of connections is exceeding initial projections. NBI is connecting circa 3,500 homes each month and expects to have connected over 65,000 by the end of the year. NBI has expressed confidence that it will complete the full roll-out of fibre to all premises by the end of 2026.

The Government and NBI agreed to accelerate the roll-out of high-speed broadband to some 672 primary schools across the State in the intervention area. NBI has confirmed that this acceleration will be complete by the end of 2023, with only three schools remaining to be connected. This will ensure that all schools across the State will have the necessary infrastructure to carry out their critical day-to-day educational activities unimpeded by poor broadband. There is some further work to be carried out by the Department of Education to install some equipment in schools before the broadband service goes live and this will be completed in the coming months.

BCPs are a key element of the national broadband plan, NBP, providing high-speed broadband in every county in advance of the roll-out of the fibre to the home network. ome 295 BCPs, which are publicly accessible sites, have been installed and the wireless high-speed broadband service has been switched on in these locations through service provider contracts managed by the Department of Rural and Community Development. All of these locations will migrate to full fibre broadband once NBI has reached that area.

The Government contract with NBI requires that every premises on every island in the intervention area will be provided with access to gigabit connectivity as part of the overall NBI deployment. To date, NBI has completed fibre deployment activity on 10 islands off counties Donegal, Mayo, Galway and Cork, namely, Eighter, Eadarinis and Inishcoo, Rutland, Inishfree, Carrowholly, Inishlyre, Turbot, Inishturk South, Heir and Long islands. Premises on these islands can now order broadband services with a minimum speed of 500 Mbps. NBI is progressing a further five islands through the design phase. Those island are Owey, Dursey, Horse, Inishbiggle and Achillbeg islands. Sherkin, Cape Clear and Bere islands will be surveyed by the end of 2023. An additional six islands will commence fibre survey and design activity in 2024. These are Tory, Arranmore, Inis Mór, Inis Oírr, Inis Meáin and Inisbofin islands. The Department continues to work with NBI and local stakeholders to accelerate the roll-out to some of the larger islands, such as Valentia and Achill islands.

We will, through the combined efforts of all stakeholders involved, of which there are many, realise a digital Ireland that is inclusive, progressive and leading on the global stage. We are taking on this task and this journey with the assurance that we are building not just for today but for generations to come and to serve all citizens regardless of how remote or rural. We look forward to assisting the committee members with any questions they may have.

Mr. Peter Hendrick

I thank the committee for having us. I am joined by my colleagues, Mr. Malone and Ms Collins. I thank the committee for the invitation to speak with its members today. We are only too pleased to discuss the latest update on our overall progress with the NBP, as well as to provide a more detailed view of some specific areas that the committee members may be interested in, such as progress in relation to offshore islands.

The timing of our appearance comes on the back of a major milestone for NBI and the roll-out of the NBP. I am pleased to report that as of today, broadband connections on the NBI network will be available to over 201,000 homes, farms and businesses across the country. This milestone means that over one third of the premises targeted by the NBP now have access to our high-speed fibre broadband network. Crucially, this will see the network build surpass our targets for this current year. Further, and as noted recently by the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, the NBP has seen a much higher take-up rate than had been originally forecast. With over 60,000 connections live on the network, we are now ahead of the connection targets that would have applied even had there been no Covid-19-related impact to the roll-out. Some 65 broadband providers are contracted to sell services on NBI's wholesale network and the levels of take-up that we are driving not only surpass the targets for this project but also exceed other international comparisons.

As a reminder for the committee, there are currently over 564,000 premises in scope across the Twenty-six Counties and NBI is providing world-class high-speed fibre broadband infrastructure, with minimum speeds of 500 Mbps. In addition, we are already delivering services of 2 Gbps.

The roll-out of the NBP is almost unrivalled in its ambition and complexity, and we are extremely proud of the progress that is being made across every aspect of the roll-out, which I can summarise as follows. Over 77% of premises, numbering 437,000, have now completed the survey and design stages of the programme. Three in five premises, numbering approximately 353,000, have moved to or through construction, with over 38% of all premises, numbering approximately 215,000, now in the build complete category. The number of premises passed by our network and ready to connect is over 201,000, which means the target of 185,000 premises to be passed by the end of the current contract year in January 2024 has already been surpassed. As I have mentioned, over 60,000 premises are now connected, which is significantly above forecasts that envisaged 50,000 connections by the end of the current contract year in January 2024. Take-up rates are above 40% in areas where the network has been live for longer than 12 months and the average take-up rate of 30% is well ahead of projections and international comparisons.

I will now turn my attention to some specific areas that I think the committee may be interested in with respect to the islands, BCPs and rural schools. At NBI, we are working to the mandate from Government to ensure that no town, village or community will be left behind under the NBP. No premises is too rural or too remote.

This means delivering broadband infrastructure to the islands is a natural extension of this mandate. In all, 27 offshore islands included in the intervention area are recognised as stand-alone deployment areas and it is our ambition all islands within our scope will be connected by the end of the programme. Ten of these islands are live and we are actively working on a number of other islands to deliver our new high-speed broadband network.

Given their remote location, unique topology and obvious logistical challenges, the islands undoubtedly present additional complexity and have been poorly served with utilities historically. We are determined, however, to ensure access to high-speed broadband for these locations. NBI’s strong progress on the islands has been made possible with the tremendous support of several stakeholders, namely, the local authorities, the Departments of the Environment, Climate and Communications and Rural and Community Development, the Irish Islands Federation and, most of all, the island residents.

Turning to the broadband connection points, BCPs, and schools, taken together, we are building a network of more than 950 strategically located connection points, or hubs, for community use. BCPs are public locations that have been chosen to receive high-speed connectivity as part of the NBP. These locations have been selected by local authorities and include public areas such as community halls, libraries, sports facilities, enterprise hubs, tourist locations and other public spaces. Some 283 BCPs have been installed with high-speed connectivity by NBI. These sites are the beating hearts of rural communities and have been a critical part of providing accessible, high-speed broadband for rural residents ahead of fibre connections being made available directly to every premises in the intervention area. In respect of schools, NBI is working with the Departments of Education and the Environment, Climate and Communications to connect 672 primary schools to the high-speed broadband network under the NBP. To date, 669 of these schools have been installed by NBI, with the remaining three schools to be connected this month.

Before I hand back to committee members and invite questions, I would like to conclude with some recent analysis that helps place Ireland’s NBP in the context of other projects throughout Europe. In September, the European Commission launched its inaugural report on the state of the digital decade, which provides the most comprehensive review of the EU’s progress towards a successful digital transformation, as set out in the Digital Decade policy programme 2030. Importantly, the report specifically noted Ireland is "expected to make a positive contribution to the collective efforts to achieve the EU’s Digital Decade targets" and, in its summary of Ireland’s performance, called out that “Ireland is progressing well with the implementation of the National broadband plan (NBP) and the connection of primary schools to broadband networks.” It is our view the report rightly highlights Ireland’s leadership position in Europe, and at NBI we are proud to play a key role in expanding the roll-out of future-proofed, high-speed broadband to every premises in the country to ensure equal access and equal opportunities.

I thank the committee for its time. Mr. Malone, Ms Collins and I will be pleased to answer any questions.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Hendrick.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I think this is very useful. I have done a bit of homework. I was listening in my office to this debate and had read the documentation beforehand. At the end of the day, broadband points and hubs are important but they are complementary to what everybody in my area is looking for from me. They are looking for two things, one of which is mobile phone coverage. There are parts of my area, because it is hilly and mountainy, where there is no mobile phone coverage. The second thing they are looking for is fibre broadband. It is very simple. They want fibre broadband. I have always been a big advocate of fibre, as the Chairman knows. I had him persecuted, as Minister, when there was only 30 MB but, in fairness to him, he delivered and came in with fibre. That was a fundamentally correct decision for the country. I fundamentally believe in fibre going to every premises, without exception, and that is also an integral part of the broadband plan. As far as I am concerned, those are two of the biggest decisions taken since we agreed universal electricity was going to be provided to houses.

The figures on the broadband roll-out are very impressive. Can the details of when the survey and the availability of connections will take place be made available? How often does NBI update the website? The only way we know we know it is coming at the moment is that we see the vans looking at the poles, and then we say we can say, judging by how long the survey takes and how long the build out will take, that we will get it in a year, but that information is not available and if I go onto the website, it will see say such and such a figure or whatever it will say. Could a better real-time update be given on when it will happen?

I fully accept we cannot build out this thing overnight. We all know that. Nevertheless, I think we are getting it from the Claremorris side rather than the Connemara side, even though we live in Connemara, and we are at the tail end of the line. Even if it were done on the Connemara side, we would be at the tail end of the line, and then there is the Clifden area, another area that has been slow for roll-out. I understand the logical reason for this; NBI is working from the centre outwards. It is running a parallel system. Even though it is using the poles, its fibre is totally independent of the Eir fibre. Can NBI give more detail to the customer? The website is useful but it is not giving me where NBI is on the different steps Mr. Hendrick outlined regarding the survey. My understanding is it is surveyed and filled and then there is provision.

I compliment NBI on it. I am not surprised at the uptake. I am surprised by those who are surprised at the uptake, and I do not care what the norm in any other country in the world is. I know rural Ireland. Every young one is on broadband and all the older people are on it too. I can guarantee that. I recall during Covid watching older farmers sitting outside the mart in their vans and cars watching the sale of their cattle online. They got somebody to show them how to get in but they got in and used it. I think that despite all the controversy, unfortunately, a lot of people missed the very good bargain that was available in GAAGO at €59 before Christmas last year for the entire season, but if you availed of that, it was a great way of making sure you got access. I used it big time. It made sure that for the lesser known matches, people had access to the broadband broadcast.

On the issue of the islands, my understanding is the contract-----

An Cathaoirleach

We might take those questions before the Deputy asks further ones. There are a lot of issues relating to the islands and we gave a commitment to islanders that we would raise them. I might ask the witnesses to take those questions before we come to the islands because I do not want the two issues to get mixed up. Deputy Ó Cuív has suggested a marketing ploy in terms of getting connections with GAAGO, so Mr. Hendrick might want to take that up as well.

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Absolutely. Mr. Malone and I are proactively engaged with the GAA and the GAAGO team. We see there is absolute value in all communications using this broadband network, whether that is broadcast communications or general non-linear communications.

We certainly see the value of the fibre network. I agree with the Deputy. We have always been clear that the future of connectivity for consumers, businesses and farms is with a fibre access network. We looked at this. We spent quite a lot of time, particularly in the bid phase, looking at what the network is going to look like, what the bandwidth utilisation of that network is going to look like and what consumers will use that network for. When we launched, we originally started by talking about 150 Mbps and when we signed the contract, we were thinking about 150 Mbps being the launch product. On day one, by the time we were live with the network, we had actually pushed it to 500 Mbps. We have three services today, 500 Mbps, 1,000 Mbps and 2,000 Mbps, and we see quite a lot of interest in moving to that 1,000 Mbps service.

Does that information get updated in respect of the fact that NBI has just started the survey or has just started the build out, and then, obviously, the bingo day? There is a reason that I am asking this. The constituents in the non-NBI area and the non-fibre area, because Eir has fibre as well, are not without broadband. There is virtually nobody without broadband, particularly if there are adults or students in the house who do anything online. Broadband is fairly pervasive but some of them have contracts with other suppliers that are inferior but much dearer contracts involving satellites and everything else.

They have to sign up for a certain period, so the longer and more accurate the lead-in time, the more the contract can be tailored to end at a certain time. I suspect one reason for the time lag in swapping over to fibre is not that people do not realise what fibre does, because broadband users know fibre is the best, but that they sometimes have contracts already and do not wish to double pay. Therefore, it would be useful to know a year or 18 months in advance what is due to happen, including in respect of the various milestones. This would help people to save money and also get what the State is investing in, which is the best service possible. This would be a massive game-changer on the ground.

Even people who use hubs want broadband in the home. A hub has a function other than just providing broadband. In 2027 or 2028, when the whole country will have fibre in every building that wants it, there will still be people going to hubs for various reasons. I used a hub this week but not to use the broadband. I used it because I wanted a meeting between various parties in the most convenient place. The hubs will be very important. One can have online meetings and so on in a neutral space. That said, hub users will also work at home. All of us, as Deputies, are fairly mobile. I always say I have three permanent offices: my office here, my constituency office in Galway, and my home, which is 35 miles from Galway. In addition, I have an office anywhere I go to stay or spend part of a day. My first question in a hotel is whether there is fibre. Nowadays, it is more or less a given. If renting a house for a holiday, a person's first question is whether it has broadband. There are many people living in this reality nowadays, meaning they require pervasive availability.

To go back to the direct point, NBI is stating it can give people accurate updates if they register.

Ms Tara Collins

Yes.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Our advice to them, therefore, is to register with their eircode because they will get real-time updates.

Ms Tara Collins

I appreciate that people have a perception of what wireless technology entails. We are talking about technology that would not typically be connected to a home. We are talking about microwave transport, which is typically used for mission-critical services, high-bandwidth services.

I will give some examples of where we have deployed this over the last 20 years. We have used this microwave transport infrastructure to support backhaul to the metropolitan area networks and fibre networks. Another example is that we have built a network in the Channel Islands connecting Guernsey, Alderney and Sark. It was with Cable & Wireless but we were brought in to deliver the solution for this network. They had fibre on the islands and they connected the transport network between the Channel Islands. We have used and deployed this in critical services, including the Irish Coast Guard, the Irish Aviation Authority, and the 999 emergency call answering service in Navan. That was connected on fibre and we had microwave transport coming from the metropolitan area in Navan. We supported and managed support for An Garda Síochána's Dublin network over a number of years.

Some of the other examples that we have used with regard to very high-capacity microwave transport include all of the broadcast services out of the Aviva Stadium and Croke Park, and RTÉ studios around the country, including Dingle. We have also provided backhaul services on this transport to ESB and several mobile networks. As a wholesale operator, over the last 20 years we have used this microwave transport infrastructure to support wholesale services to Eir, BT, AT&T, Verizon, Orange, Vodafone, Sprint, NTT Docomo, T-Mobile and many others. It is a very heavily engineered solution with high resiliency, high availability and high capacity. We have used this technology for many years, as have many telecommunications companies, so it is very different in how we connect the capacity from the mainland to the island. We are required under the contract to ensure that island users, homes, businesses and farms get the same speed, latency and availability that is available to those on mainland, and that contract prevails for 25 years. The contract requires that NBI delivers that level of service to the end users.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

The questions that I am being asked are, first, are these systems as secure as fibre? I have no doubt that they are but we will have to look into that further. Second, are they subject to contention? In other words, what happens if everyone gets on at the same time? Third, if this is the solution, why is it not being rolled out around the country to the boxes? Fourth, can we have it so that it is the solution for the islands, as opposed to rolling out the cable? This question has nothing to do with NBI because it is just fulfilling its contract. It is actually directed at the Department and the Government.

What I cannot understand is that a lot of the islands need upgraded electrical supplies. With the exception of Inishturk and Tory Island, they are all connected to the mainland with a physical cable. I think Tory and Inishturk still have generators. They originally used to have generators but there was too much hassle, so they put a cable under the ground. There is a strong case to be made to the Department, not to NBI, which should just do its business and just tell us which islands are involved. That is what we need from NBI. I think there is a good case to upgrade the electricity supply for the islands, both inwards and outwards. This would be of assistance if the islands want to export electricity from renewable energy sources, or to import more electricity because they are all using more electricity. It would also give resilience if one cable goes down, as happened in Aran, which got a second cable.

From a technological point of view, I understand that if one is doing that, in the same dredging one could put in a fibre cable at the same time, so the dredging cost would be the same as if one is putting in one cable. We did that again in the Aran Islands in Galway years ago, when we put in electricity and water at the same time when the dredger went across. It dug the water trench and then it dug the electrical trench. The big cost is getting the dredgers there, not the actual dredging. I wonder if the Department has costed the cost to the State of providing the alternative of fibre to the offshore islands that at the moment will not be getting fibre, in conjunction with electricity and in some cases mainland water supply? Water supply is becoming a problem for some islands.

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

Of the 27 islands - the guys here can confirm - the majority of them, except for Achill which has a land bridge, will be done with full fibre, from end to end. Valentia, which is currently going through a design, is planned to be full fibre, except there is an ongoing discussion with Kerry County Council regarding Valentia Bridge because it opens, and putting a cable over a bridge that opens could be problematic. There is a question as to whether Mr. Hendrick's solution of the point-to-point link versus a cable to Valentia is an option. These are the things we go through in design.

From the point of view of the Department, Mr. Hendrick is right. The contract requires the service to be equivalent of Dublin now and into the future, and once that is delivered to all the residents on the island, that is the contract fulfilled. As part of that proposal, NBI would have given my colleagues their proposed options, and the option of bringing full fibre from the mainland to the islands was looked into from a cost perspective, and mainly a time perspective. The cost perspective NBI put in front of us suggested that the cost of building a subsea cable from the mainland to the Aran Islands could be at least five to six times the cost of the solution they put on the table for the same outcome. From a costing point of view and a value-for-money perspective for the taxpayer, the proposal of one option versus the other was a no-brainer in the end because the solution was going to be the same under the technical proposal that was put forward.

On the time front, if we decided in the Department that we did not like NBI's point-to-point wireless, and we wanted a subsea cable, we would work under the new subsea cable regime through the Maritime Area Regulatory Authority, MARA. I know it fairly well because I am involved in the international project that EirGrid is building to France. Other projects are getting set funding to build to France, Spain and Portugal. There is also a secondary regime through MARA, where one has to go to An Bord Pleanála for cables under water, and do a lot of appropriate assessments and environmental assessments. It is a significant risk to getting broadband to those islands in a timely manner. We recently agreed that of the 27 islands, we will bring forward to 2025 and 2026 seven of them, I understand, that were due for completion in 2027. In the last couple of months we agreed a 12- to 14-month acceleration to islands. Again, that would only be possible with the point-to-point link from the mainland. If we were going down the route of a subsea cable, I fear that we would go years beyond even 2026 to get broadband to the islands. I think that not just the cost but the time is a very significant consideration if it was decided that subsea cables were required.

In the context of co-operation on energy and water, we are not aware of EirGrid or ESB having a plan to upgrade the islands at the moment. I am sure they will have to, given whatever capacity requirements they have. The age of those cables can run from 25 to 30 years, so I am sure they would have a replacement policy. If in the event that they do, at that point in time, of course there will be a discussion to put fibre cables on the same build because the incremental costs will be very little. For example, when EirGrid is doing its connection from Ireland to France, it is putting multiple fibres on the energy supply to ensure we can use those fibres. Again, that is part and parcel of the policy to get from Ireland to Europe with the capacity on subsea cables. Islands would be no different where, be it water or energy, the Department and other respective Departments - of course for energy, it is our own Department - will be liaising with those to make sure there is the maximum amount of infrastructure from the build. If it was one ship building the same cable and putting in extra fibre, the incremental cost would be very little. We just do not have a plan from ESB or EirGrid to do those projects.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

What Mr. Mulligan said is right. I am not dreaming of stopping what is going. I would not in my wildest dreams. However, what I would also say is that Government has to be proactive, and has to go way beyond where the commercial company is going to go. The Government might have to directly fund it, as it did with NBI, and say, "Hang on a second. If we leave it to the commercial market, it ain't going to happen".

I want the Government, with the Department of Rural and Community Development taking the lead, to survey all the islands and see whether it would be optimal from the islands' point of view to improve electricity supply and resilience at the State's expense and to install fibre and water infrastructure and anything else that could be connected to the mainland at the same time. All of the islands should be surveyed and the Government should then provide a programme of fundamental infrastructure upgrades to islands over and above what commercial companies would prioritise. The Government should give the money directly to the companies to do the job, which is basically what happened in the case of National Broadband Ireland, NBI. Nowadays, that would probably have to be cleared as appropriate state aid and so on.

This is why the Department exists. Without it, after cost-benefit analyses, the islands would always be at the bottom of the pack. The whole idea of a Department responsible for the islands was to jump over such analyses and to use a special ring-fenced island fund to make things happen as soon as possible. That can be done in a cost-effective way by taking a cross-cutting approach rather than addressing things individually, such as through someone going in and putting in fibre alone. The islands division needs to drive this and to organise these upgrades. There are precedents for this in the past. European money was used to bring electricity to the islands and then the Department, when it was my Department, dealt with a few tail-end islands that did not have electricity: Inishturk South, Inishturbot, Coney Island and so on. We funded those works directly from the Department. Companies were left to do the distribution but we provided the point-to-point works from the mainland to the islands. We asked whether the companies would use the connections and, of course, they did.

An Cathaoirleach

I will ask Mr. O'Brien to come in on Deputy Ó Cuív's comment but, before we leave Mr. Mulligan, will he clarify a few things in the context of what Deputy Ó Cuív has said? Is there a difference between a fibre connection and a connection that is partly a wireless service from a latency point of view? That is the first thing. Is there a difference as regards contention? Is there variability in that regard? I have a question that Mr. Hendrick may wish to answer. If everyone on each of the Aran Islands signed up for a 2 GB service tomorrow morning, could that be provided at the same level as would be provided through a fibre cable? I suggest Mr. Hendrick be careful in answering that because I am sure there will be technical experts going through his response. However, I would like an answer to that.

I have two questions for Mr. Mulligan. He has mentioned the time perspective, leaving aside the cost, the technology and so forth. Time is a priority in this regard as well. We do not want to see the islands left behind. Looking at the matter purely from the perspective of time, is Mr. Mulligan saying in his evidence here this morning that because of the licensing regime now in place through MARA, it would be beyond the delivery date of 1 January 2027 that all of our island communities would have a high-speed broadband connection if we were to go for a subsea cable solution? Will he clarify that?

While the Department of Rural and Community Development can answer this question as well, is Mr. Mulligan also saying that, if there is a water or electricity connection going from the mainland to islands in the future, the Government will ensure that at least a duct will be put in to facilitate a fibre cable being provided to those islands, as is the case with the EirGrid cable between our own island and the mainland of France?

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

On the first question, I am not saying it is down to licensing. Licensing is one part of the issue. The thing with the subsea cable project is that it is a much bigger project than establishing a point-to-point link. As part of that project, NBI would have to hire the requisite expertise in the subsea cable industry, the relevant environmental assessments would have to be done and the relevant licensing would have to be approved. As it would depend on all of the inputs around environmental assessments, it would be difficult to say with any certainty when a licence might be granted. Due to that uncertainty, it would be very difficult for the subsea cable company that would have to be hired to book shipping and boats. I understand a ship could cost €200,000 a day. If you do not know when you are going to have a licence, you would not book a ship and it can be necessary to book ships up to two years ahead to have them in Galway Bay, ready to put cable down. While there is no one to blame, it causes a lot of uncertainty. I am sure the licensing system will deliver whatever is required but it is a very significant and complicated end-to-end project, as I have seen in other projects from here to Europe that I have reviewed. Subsea cabling is a big challenge. Regardless of whether it is just to an island off Galway or to France, it is a big project and very expensive. In this context, NBI has demonstrated to the Department that it is not necessary.

Exactly. It is well within the terms typically seen for any fibre network. It must be understood that the difference between the NBI network and many traditional networks is that we do not have a lot of active node points in the network. There are 227 deployment areas in which we have active equipment.

We hand back to the retail operators in 33 regional points of handover or two data centres in Dublin. Once we go into those broadband networks every point of exchange on their network also introduces some sort of latency. Even with all of that, let us call it optical to electrical transfer of connectivity, we are still talking about a sub-10 ms round trip.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Murphy indicated earlier and he is back with us online.

Senator Eugene Murphy

I had to cover another meeting. I am going to keep this very brief because some of the questions were probably answered when I was away.

First, I thank the Chair for his role when he was the Minister. In no small way his enthusiasm brought on this broadband project to the island and islands in leaps and bounds. I also acknowledge the officials who worked with him and those who are here with us today.

I do not really care who answers the question. We have brought the fibre line so far and then it stops and there are 4 km or 5 km left where people cannot join up. I am a victim of this myself even with my Oireachtas line at home and my neighbours are the same way. We have been told it will be four or five years more. I could give several examples. The Chair knows of this himself. Is there anything that can be done to speed it up for people who need broadband but because of the gap that has been left, there is no chance in most cases of getting it for four or five years?

I will finish with this second point. Firms are not realising their potential because of the lack of broadband. The Chair knows the firm we talk about in north Roscommon, the Hanly group with 120 workers, which is prepared to dig up an area, put down poles and do everything but its chance of getting broadband is three years down the road. Is there anything that can be done for firms like that? I spoke to the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, about this and he mentioned the hub. Realistically, a hub is not the answer to a business with 120 workers. There is no doubt that the company is losing out on business. They tell me they could be employing 30 more people if they had the broadband. They are my two questions.

Mr. Peter Hendrick

I thank the Senator. I will take the question about people who have to wait a number of years for high-speed fibre broadband. For commercial areas, if somebody today is on a greater than 30 Mbps service, it may be delivered on copper or a coaxial cable and once they are above 30 mbps they are not part of the national broadband plan. Based on the announcements from Eir, Virgin, Siro and others, we do believe that there is an intent for those operators to migrate off of those copper and coaxial cable networks onto fibre. Obviously they have got a roll-out plan and a timeline associated with that but we understand that is their intent.

On the NBP roll-out, the way our network typology works is when we do our survey and design we ascertain where all the homes in a deployment area are and we set a design threshold as to how far we can go. That has to take into account a number of things, namely the broadband speed we are providing today, the broadband speed we need to ensure we can provide over the next 30 to 40 years and then account for new homes that are going to be added in over that period in terms of the utilisation and capacity for those homes. There are a number of areas. It does get technical but it comes down to what we call the propagation loss of the light that travels down the cable. There is a certain limitation which we cannot go beyond. We have to stop somewhere. It might feel that where we stop the network is only 100 m or a kilometre away from somebody else, but members can rest assured that no home will be left behind. It may just be that they have to be served from another deployment area because of those limitations. It is not that we are choosing to take the easier homes or to move homes around. They are literally down to technical challenges. We need to ensure that we can deliver the speed, latency and availability over the contract period, which is 25 years but, equally, to meet the ten-year extension to which we have committed with the Department.

An Cathaoirleach

Could Mr. Hendrick clarify for me, based on the current equipment that is deployed, the maximum speed that is available on that network over the next 35 years, depending on demand?

Second, in terms of equipment that is potentially available today, to put at either end of that fibre cable, what is the potential theoretical capacity of that network based on current technology, if it was upgraded?

Mr. Peter Hendrick

When we started deploying the network we made a decision to go with the latest, best technology, which was called XGS-PON. That technology will deliver 10 Gbps to the home. Every white box that we install in the home today supports 10 GB of connectivity. In order to upgrade that, the next variant of that will be 25 GB, 40 GB and then 100 GB. We are dependent on the equipment vendors in the market that are developing this technology but the standards have been set and as networks require the demand for that bandwidth the equipment vendors produce the technology. The key point of our technical solution was the type of lasers we install in the equipment. In designing the network we made sure that the lasers that we installed were a certain class. Each laser has a different type of class. Basically, by the class we chose, we will be able to meet the speeds of 25 GB, 40 GB, and 100 GB to the home into the future based on the way we have designed the network in the technology evolution of XGS-PON, which is the foundation of the technology we use.

We have designed the network to ensure that we can deliver that. Typically, that is up to 25 km away from where our head-end location is - homes that are within 25 km of the cable route. We have got to remember that as the cable goes out to all the homes there are patch points and additional connections coming in. Every time we have one of those patch points in connections we have a loss on the cable so we have to calculate all of that in. Depending on how many homes are in an area, it might go from 25 km down to 19 km. It just depends on how many connections come onto the network at that point in time. In addition to the optical network we also have sufficient spare capacity in the network for any new homes connecting to the network over the full life of the contract.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Hendrick. Is there anything else Senator Murphy wants to ask or is he happy with the response? I know he is not happy with the response but is there any supplementary question?

Senator Eugene Murphy

No, I am not happy but there is probably not much that can be done. The Chair knows how frustrating it is to people who are a couple of hundred metres away from a network. There are a lot of houses grouped together and they cannot understand how it is down the road and it is going to take three or four years to get to them. Anyway, that is just the way it is.

Senator Mark Wall

I apologise to the witnesses as I got parked on the N7 on the way in, as did a lot of people this morning.

An Cathaoirleach

It is a pity Senator Wall cannot work remotely from Leinster House. We will have to change the Constitution in regard to that.

Senator Mark Wall

Yes, in fairness, we are working on that. A lot of people were caught on the N7 today.

I thank the witnesses. I am benefiting from fibre broadband in my area, as are my neighbours. It has made a difference. It is important to start off with that.

I apologise if my questions have been asked previously. There are pockets in the area where fibre has been delivered where for whatever reason some of my neighbours and constituents are finding it very difficult to get through and to get answers on. Is there a special email address? I know we have one but, unfortunately, I have not been able to get an answer on that as well for those people. I know some of them have been asking questions for a couple of months. I would appreciate if we got a reply.

My second question is as important. I raised this issue the previous time we met the witnesses. It relates to community groups and rural hubs.

I am specifically talking about my own area where we have recently converted an old school. Is there a process under which we can apply to have fibre broadband to allow some neighbours who may not wish to get caught up on the N7 to work from home or from a community hub? I compliment the broadband officers and the council. Are there plans to expand that scheme or where exactly are the broadband officers operating at the moment?

An Cathaoirleach

The final two questions are for the Department of Rural and Community Development. The first is for Mr. Hendrick and his team. To clarify, is Senator Wall talking about people whose neighbours are able to get a fibre connection but they are not?

Senator Mark Wall

To clarify, what is happening here is that there are some additional works needed in order to provide for these people whose neighbours are getting fibre broadband. They have been told these works will be provided. This is going on for a number of months and unfortunately we have not been able to get to the bottom of it. Their neighbours are getting fibre broadband, but because of additional works, these people cannot get it and they are finding it very difficult to get answers as to how long it is going to take.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Mr. Hendrick want to come back in on that? I will have a similar question on it in a few minutes.

Mr. Peter Hendrick

We have tried to be very open and transparent with communications around the deployment timelines but equally with homes getting connected to the network. If somebody is moved or is in a different deployment area, we will be able to answer that through our call centre or through the reps, as Ms Collins described earlier. I would be happy to take any of those specific requirements and requests and we will follow up on them for the Senator. If it is related to a connection, or if somebody who has placed an order is having challenges in getting connected, sometimes there are issues in connecting homes to the network. When we arrive out to do a connection, a number of issues can arise. We may have thought there was a duct already in place from where we have our equipment, whether that is when we are going overhead to underground or going underground from a chamber. We may have thought there was an existing duct and there may be no duct. It might be an existing direct-buried copper cable, which means we have to open up the road and get road-opening licences. Sometimes we need to apply for standing new poles to connect homes. Sometimes the route we had originally designed for the connection is not available. We may realise we are coming across somebody else's land and that wayleave or right to cross is not forthcoming, and we have to think about redesigns and redeployment of infrastructure.

I will give some sense of how we have approached this under the NBP versus how a commercial operator would have approached it. In our survey and design, we capture as much information as we can in the beginning of the programme, and as we go through the programmes, on all of the connections. We are looking at what existing infrastructure is provided to those homes in terms of a copper cable. If the copper cable is an old telephone line, we need to establish if it is underground. We look at the chamber and see if it looks like there is a lead-in duct going to the home. At that stage, we cannot try to rod and rope to see if every one of those ducts goes all the way to the home and is not blocked. That is one scenario. We know we are going underground; we just do not know what remediation works might need to be done. If it is overhead, it is somewhat easier because we are already on the pole network and we know we can go from the pole to the home. However, if we are transiting across somebody else's land, even if they have previously supported it with a copper network but they are not proposing to support it with the NBP fibre network, we may have to do redesign, redeployment and rebuild infrastructure. Looking at this for the 60,000 homes we have connected, because we have done the survey and design work upfront, our success rate in being able to connect is quite high on this programme compared to other commercial operators. What we see today is that approximately 5% of homes can take greater than 60 days to get connected because of some of these challenges. We are continuously working, based on the experience we have had, to try to improve on that. Given the types of scenarios with which we have had issues when connecting homes, we use the data we have to apply the right resources. We may need to apply more surveying resources at the time of connection because we have seen a similar scenario before, or we may need heavy civil crews. Ultimately, we still have to go back to the local authorities when we want to apply for road opening licences, traffic management for closing roads, and tree trimming for running cables for connections. We need to make sure we manage a number of parts closely with the local authorities, our end contractor and the end user. Ms Collins may want to come in on some of communications with end users.

Ms Tara Collins

Yes. I gather the Senator is talking about the end users who have placed orders and where there is a delay or they are waiting. We have a customer communications journey that has been designed between ourselves, our connects partner and our retail service providers, insofar as the end user gets regular text messages and communications from our operations call centre letting them know what stage they are at and what the issues are. We also have a huge amount of information online. We have worked closely with our retail service providers to ensure this information is available, for example, if a connection requires poles; if damaged poles need to be replaced; if new ducting is required for underground cables; if repairs, licensing applications or approvals are needed; or if trees need to be trimmed. We have been working really hard to improve on those communications. We have a customer communications journey and we are doing our best to communicate the issues on the ground in real time. In saying that, we appreciate that some customers are waiting longer than we would like and we are trying to keep them as up to date as possible.

An Cathaoirleach

Before we move on to the Department, I want to concentrate for a minute on the issue Senator Wall has raised and deal with both responses we have got. I will give an example. A constituent of mine placed an order in May. I have been on to NBI, which has been very helpful on this matter, but as far as it is concerned, the order was registered on 2 August. Clearly, the system whereby an order is made and registered with NBI is falling down. The order was registered with NBI on 2 August. I do not know why there was a delay. On 10 August, the connection was paused due to a redesign. Every single one of this person's neighbours has already been connected. The survey and design has been completed and yet we had to go back to a redesign. On five occasions, KN Circet has called out. The update that this family received was from the engineer who called out on the road. They did not get text messages or regular updates, but an update from the engineer. I have another case I will talk about later. The response from that KN Circet engineer was that the family should contact their local councillor or Deputy. There is something fundamentally wrong in the communication if the agents of NBI are telling the public to contact councillors or Deputies to try to find out when they are going to get a connection. That is the first issue.

The second issue is that raised by Senator Wall. We have targets in place for passing premises. Mr. Malone spoke about them earlier. It is hoped that we will be back on target by the end of next year. I know from my own negotiations that there are targets for connection times under the Eir contract. Under the national broadband plan, is there a target time for when an order is placed and when a connection to the door takes place? If so, what is that target? Is NBI meeting that target at the moment? If not, what is it achieving at present? This is becoming a more consistent problem. Senator Wall and I, and our colleagues, are receiving messages about it. I can understand that there are technical issues involved in this but people have already been paid to go out and map the thing. We know where the issues are. Given that 60,000 homes have been connected at this stage, if there is a problem with the survey and design, surely this must have been flagged up already and is being reorganised to ensure we can minimise these delays or the number of homes where this arises. Will the witnesses clarify that please?

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Perhaps, I will just answer that question first on the order from May to August. What happens is that 90 days before we release a deployment area for order, we allow a preorder window. All of our communications are around the preorder window and we set the live date. We will look into whether it is not being communicated to the end user. Certainly, when we communicate that there is a preorder window, the live date will not be until, for example, August. We set those dates and we communicate regularly and equally with the retail operators on that. We will check, look into that and come back to the committee on that.

I thank the Chair and the Senator. There are two questions on our side. The first one related to a converted old school linked to the work of a community group and what funding might be available. There are a couple of possible funding streams that we have in place at the moment. For example, funding can be provided under the scheme such as the town and village renewal or the rural regeneration and development fund, depending on what sort of project one is looking at. We fund a number of projects with regard to the use of buildings and many of them are developing digital services.

One of the things we are working on at the moment is our calendar for the 2024 schemes. This is about getting the timing for them correct. We release that then at the start of next year to ensure that everybody is aware of all of the different funding opportunities available for community groups. By and large, such schemes are delivered through local authorities and there is a requirement for local authorities to directly engage with community groups o the development of projects which might have potential.

If one is looking at something more focused on, for example, making a broadband connection point in a building, that process is actually closed at the moment but we have the possibility of substituting out a BCP for a new BCP. That is very much done in consultation with the local authorities.

On the role of the broadband officers, which is a key role for us, we have done some work on that recently and we spend a good deal of time keeping in communication with the broadband officers. I might just hand over to my colleague, Mr. Whelan, to give the most recent update on that.

Mr. Brendan Whelan

The Department co-funds the role of the broadband officer in each of the 31 local authorities. They tend to be the single point of contact for citizens, public representatives such as the committee members and telecoms operators who are trying to get work done. We provide the funding and require certain conditions to be met for that. They must be full time in the role, they must meet the requirements set out in the role profile and so forth. At this moment, we have responses from the local authorities that 22 of these officers are confirmed and that they have them in place. That is not to say that the other officers are not there; it is just that those local authorities have not come back to us to confirm it with regard to the funding at this point. We are pursuing them to follow up on that to see exactly where they are. A few of the local authorities are carrying vacancies for some time but the vast bulk of local authorities have a broadband officer in place.

An Cathaoirleach

If the local authorities were informed that the money could be lost for the staff, they would be very quick to come back to the Department and let it know what the current state of play is on it.

Mr. Brendan Whelan

That is exactly where we are.

An Cathaoirleach

Just on the connections and speaking about the local authorities, we had at the start of this project, particularly in the roll-out of the fibre cable, difficulty in dealing with challenges in some local authorities in terms of the Department. I know that some of the sub-contractors to NBI refused to tender for projects in some counties because of a difficulty in engaging with local authorities. What is the level of engagement now with local authorities in getting the civil works done from the pole to the door if additional poles or additional ducting are needed? I am talking about licensing from local authorities. How efficient is it that in delivering on these targets? What role does the Department of Rural and Community Development have with regard to the broadband task force, and what role do the broadband officers play in that regard?

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Mr. Malone may correct me if I am wrong. Typically, it can take anything up to 30 days to get specific licences approved but, in general, the programme and the engagement with local authorities have been quite good. I would not say there has been an issue with the local authorities around connections. There is a time within which we have to submit the licence and a time within which the licence comes back and is approved and the contractor commences work and mobilises a team.

Mr. T.J. Malone

In fairness, the local authorities, in general, are working really well with us. It took us a while to get them all on board and get used to this. I will not go into specific details as to what counties they are in, but there are still one or two local authorities that are slightly problematic. In general, however, they are working very well with us. It probably took us a while to get used to their systems and vice versa as regards the amount we were putting in. In fairness to the Department, it has put extra funding towards that and making sure they had the facilities within the local authorities. In general, it is less than 14 days, and in some cases they are turning around licences within a week. Part of the problem, as Members can imagine, is when we go out on site to do a connection. It is only at that point that we realise we need a road opening licence for that particular area, whereas on the build we will take a section of the build and apply for a T1 and T2 licence months in advance for that particular section. We could be allowed to excavate maybe up to a hundred blockages in that particular section under that licence, which we would have applied for in advance, but, in fairness, on the connections, we do not realise that until we actually get to the door of the house.

Mr. Hendrick spoke about the survey and design we do, which is unique. No other commercial operator will survey and design every premises for a connection, which we do at the point of the regional survey. It throws up only so much. We cannot go in and rod ducts the whole way through and understand exactly what it is. It is a matter of the time that takes. While the local authority might turn it around reasonably quickly, we have to take that back from site, prepare the application, submit the application, get that back and then put that back into the system to go back out. We are getting better at it all the time, but it is a process that needs a bit more defining now. It would be ideal if we did not have to apply for that road opening licence and could proceed straight away, maybe under a T3-type licence, an emergency-type licence, whereby we could potentially continue to excavate and then retrospectively put it in as a licence. Maybe that would help in the future. As it stands, however, for the system that is in place, the local authorities are, in general, working very well with us.

An Cathaoirleach

An Cathaoirleach

Good. That is positive and should be the case, considering that the taxpayer is paying a substantial amount of money for broadband officers and putting in an additional €2 million to address blockages. We do not want to see this not being properly utilised as public funding in some local authorities. I ask for clarification on that.

Have we dealt with all of Senator Wall's questions?

Senator Mark Wall

The Cathaoirleach has summed them up well. My concerns were about broadband officers and local authorities, so I thank him.

I will ask a follow-up question about BCPs. It was mentioned that they could be substituted, but is there a process for that? The local community I have in mind availed of rural funding, which was appreciated, but how would we go about substituting one BCP for another?

Mr. Brendan Whelan

It is mainly done through the local authority. The local authority would need to identify a particular BCP that was coming out of the system, as it were, for the other BCP to be swapped in. We have done it in a number of areas, but it would depend on a point in the Kildare area dropping out of the BCP programme and being moved to somewhere else. It would be done through the local authority.

An Cathaoirleach

Back to your broadband officer, Senator Wall.

Senator Mark Wall

As always. I appreciate the answers.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Last week, I received an email from someone running a substantial business on an offshore island about how the Department of Rural and Community Development had committed to delivering high-speed BCPs in digital hubs and schools on the islands. The person wrote that, tús áite do connection points, digital hubs and schools, breathnaíonn sé nach bhfuil aon phráinn le monarcha nó do ghnóthaí beaga ar na hoileáin. That is a fair point. This person is paying an astronomical amount – more than €7,000 per year – for broadband. Whether it comes from NBI or the Department, it would be useful if we could get an update on when the islands will be connected, particularly the major offshore ones. The list might specify whether the connections will be fibre or point-to-point. What number of premises on each island are covered by the survey? I understand the roll-out system and that the easy premises have been done, not because NBI wanted to take the easy pickings, but because doing so has allowed the roll-out to happen. What NBI will find out is that half the islands’ population are on the three Aran Islands, but there are also people on Clare Island, Inishturk, Inishbofin, Tory Island, Arranmore and Bere Island. I am not counting Achill as an island for the purposes of the exercise.

My question for the Department is wider than just broadband. Does the Department not have a dedicated islands fund? There is a subheading for oileáin in its Estimates.

Mr. Fintan O'Brien

Island capital funding is available.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

The situation does not seem to be quite how I understood it. I believed that that funding could be used for any infrastructural shortfall in, for example, piers, roads, coastal erosion, health, education, power, communications, recreation or community. It could be obtained in all sorts of creative ways, for example, co-funding, solitary funding, part funding, total funding or with the Department as the main funder, other than the community. Does the Department track what projects would have needed to wait much longer in the queue due to cost-benefit analyses by the various providers if we did not have an island fund that could be used in so many creative ways to push projects forward and make them attractive? Previously, 50% funding was provided for health centres, which made it attractive for the HSE to move to somewhere. A cost-benefit analysis would usually decide between an island with 300 people and an urban area of 3,000 people, but when money suddenly appears on the table, providers want to do things. I can understand that. That was the whole idea of the fund. Since the piers are not fishing piers, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is not interested, so they are effectively 100% funded by the Department of Rural and Community Development. There was a similar arrangement in respect of electricity, where the Department handled the point-to-point work, the networks and so forth for ESB Networks, commonly called the ESB. Is the Department’s islands division looking at all aspects of island infrastructure and asking how to move projects up the back list by using its money pot instead of leaving them low down on the list due to being awkward to get to? Is such a proactive approach being taken or do the agencies just do what they want and the islands must take their turn?

My final question is very much directed to the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. It is a simple question. If I set off from Clonbur in my area towards Finny and go to Tonlegee or Glentraigue, there is no mobile signal. If I go into the Inagh Valley, which some of the witnesses will have heard of, or go around the Kylemore area – not just the abbey section of it, as Kylemore starts way before that turn – or Inishbofin, mobile signal is very poor. You can be quite deep inside a valley and be nowhere near a mobile signal. What progress has the task force made in taking in what should have been part of the contract from the very beginning – we sold the thing for a bit of extra money and sold 5% of the population short – in the past four or five years and what progress is planned to be made to cover these black spots? The map shows the situation. The witnesses all know the famous map. They can see the mountainous areas in Wicklow, Connemara and Donegal – the Cathaoirleach is lucky in Roscommon, as there are not too many mountains in east Galway – and that they still do not have mobile coverage.

An Cathaoirleach

I will ask both Departments to respond. Before I do, though, I will say that it is because of the mobile phone and broadband task force that we actually have the map with its various shades of brown. Sadly, there are some weak brown areas in my constituency. I call Mr. Mulligan, Mr. O’Brien and Mr. Whelan.

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

I will address the Deputy’s questions on the islands and then pass over to my colleague. Owing to a delay of eight and a half months due to Covid, we went back to NBI at the start of the year to see what we could do to get the islands done faster. I am glad to say that we have come to an arrangement under which NBI has brought forward many of them. My colleague, Mr. Brown, will provide a rundown of the seven islands we have brought forward. There are 27 islands. Mr. Brown can give a rundown of exactly what is being served by a point-to-point connection and what is being served by fibre. The majority are served by point-to-point connections with the mainland. That has been the result of the exercise. We have specific timelines for when those people can order broadband. I will let Mr. Brown run the Deputy through those. We only agreed and contractualised the arrangement with NBI in the past month or two. We will now roll out a programme to tell the islanders the dates on which the service will be ready. To address the Deputy’s previous point, is it 2025-----

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

If Mr. Mulligan gave the information to us tomorrow, we would make sure the islanders knew. He need not worry about that.

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

The Deputy will have it today. I will give it to him now. Regarding 2025 and 2026, giving anyone a timeframe of 12 months is not appropriate.

This is an issue the committee needs to return to because it is a broader one and we do not have the relevant players in front of us, although I will come back to it later. Deputy Ó Cuív is correct about population coverage. Coverage of 70% equates to 322 towns and cities. That is all it is. Three Ireland is on 85%, which is a bit higher than that. Even so, we are ignoring 750,000 people who live in these rural areas and who will not get 5G coverage based on any of these targets. Of course, it is not just about mobile phone coverage. There is the question of emergency services as well. What happens if someone in this national park breaks a leg and has no coverage? The then Minister for Rural and Community Development, Deputy Ring, and I launched a number of years ago a service with Android phones that allowed for the emergency services to determine geographically where someone was if they had dialled 112 or 999, but that is not going to be feasible once we switch off the 3G service. If Deputy Ó Cuív thinks things are bad at the moment, it is going to get worse when the 3G service is switched off. It is an issue we need to look at.

Will the Department revert to us with a briefing note on coverage in terms of the deployment of 4G, the licensing conditions that are set in that regard, the switch-off of 3G and the implications of that, and the TETRA emergency response service, which is being decommissioned? The taxpayer is going to have to put a new network in place for our ambulances and Garda anyway, which will have to be on a geographical basis, and it would make more sense to piggyback on that. My understanding is that the industry has put forward proposals on this to the Government. We need to bring in industry representatives, the regulator and departmental officials on this, but that is a matter for another meeting. I will flag it. Mr. Mulligan might wish to comment on that.

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

On the 3G switch-off, my understanding is that is with Vodafone at the moment in the main and it is running a pilot programme in Limerick. ComReg will oversee that transition away from 3G to ensure end users will not be negatively impacted. That will be an orderly transition away from 3G, with minimal impact on end users, as I understand.

We will revert to the committee with a note on 4G. Again, the licence conditions were set by ComReg and are currently in a period of being complied with over the next couple of years. They are not at full coverage where they are. I understand they do, at a minimum, cover all villages, for example, in terms of when they get the full roll-out. Populated areas are, therefore, at least villages.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

Yes, but 30% do not live in villages-----

An Cathaoirleach

We will come back to this-----

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

ComReg and the industry will be better placed to answer those questions.

An Cathaoirleach

I want the Deputy to keep his powder dry on that because it is one we will come back to. I know well that students from County Longford will also be interested in questions about mobile phone coverage in north Longford.

I have a couple of questions, and I am going to start at European level and come back to local level. Legally, the definition of high-speed broadband is 30 Mbps, which is an absolute joke, and the problem with that definition is at EU level. The European Commission is talking about the gig economy and how everybody will have access to 1 Gbps of broadband by 2030, yet we are still looking at high-speed broadband being defined as 30 Mbps. What is the status of that and when are realistic figures for the definition of high-speed broadband going to be introduced at EU level? This has implications in Ireland for people who are not in the amber area and are theoretically in the blue area on the national broadband plan, but who are, unfortunately, getting only 30 Mbps or 31 Mbps. In fact, they are in the reddish-brown area, because they are not in blue or amber and they are caught in between the two. This cohort of people are usually on the edges of towns and villages and the NBI cable is outside their door, but they cannot legally connect to it because of a perverse EU definition of high-speed broadband at 30 Mbps. What is the status of the change in that? This has long been promised by the Commission to be changed. What are we as a country doing to push the Commission to come up with a realistic figure for the definition of high-speed broadband?

On that issue, Mr. Hendrick stated earlier that 669 schools have been connected by NBI, with the remaining three schools to be connected this month. Are any of them in Roscommon?

Mr. Peter Hendrick

I will come back to the Cathaoirleach on that.

An Cathaoirleach

I can tell Mr. Hendrick that there is one that is not on that list but should be, namely, Cloonakilla National School in south Roscommon. It is getting 4 Mbps at the moment, but it is blue on the national broadband plan, which means it is, in theory, able to get a high-speed broadband connection through the Open Eir network. Funnily enough, the houses on either side of the school are part of the NBI network and have had their connections made. The fibre is outside the door of the school but, for some bizarre reason, it is the only blue dot in a 1 km radius and, therefore, NBI cannot provide it with a connection. How this has ended up happening, I do not know. I know whatever has gone on here is the problem of the Department of Education, but Mr. Hendrick stated only three schools are remaining, yet that school, with hundreds of pupils and on the edge of the town of Athlone, is not getting a basic service at the moment because there is a wrong colour on the national broadband plan map. Mr. Hendrick might come back to us on the three schools and somebody might let me know what is happening with Cloonakilla National School in Athlone. It is not good enough that schools are being left like this.

Turning to the Department of Rural and Community Development, Mr. O’Brien stated the broadband connection points are now supporting communities in using digital services to provide local activities in rural areas, and that is commendable. We need to look at the broadband connection points and see how we can adapt and reuse them for other purposes as fibre-optic cable is being deployed.

The Department is looking at new opportunities. One of the big problems that this committee deals with on a regular basis is the levels of poverty among one-parent families, through the Department of Social Protection. It is a big issue for the Minister for Social Protection. Microsoft is involved in a project in Norway at the moment where cybersecurity skills are provided to migrant women thus giving them high-value employment. The great advantages of having a job in cybersecurity is that it can be done remotely, at different times in the day and it may suit child care, etc. We know that there is a huge level of under employment among one-parent families and there is a huge level of poverty among one-parent families. Here seems to be an ideal opportunity, in certain circumstances, to give people, mainly women, the opportunity of high-value employment while meeting the huge deficit of people with cybersecurity skills in the sector. We have the infrastructure in place to provide training in digital hubs and broadband connection points. Is there an opportunity for the Department of Rural and Community Development, working with the Department of Social Protection and the likes of Microsoft, to develop an initiative to address poverty that can be a win:win situation in both rural and urban Ireland? I will leave that with the witnesses.

Innovative digital projects have been mentioned. As the officials will know, I tabled a Dáil question asking when the next round of funding will be made available, specifically for a project in County Roscommon that has gone through phase 1 and now has huge potential to be upscaled but we need additional funding to get the project off the ground. When will the next round of funding for digital innovation projects and specifically for the scaling up of these projects?

On digital hubs, the Connected Hubs website is fantastic app. I am sure most of us use it when we travel to have connectivity, conduct meetings and so forth. However, there are only 330 of the 710 remote working hubs in the country on this website. Why have the rest of them not joined? I ask because public funding has been used to provide hubs so they should made available to the public. If a hub is not part of the Connected Hubs website then it is very hard for people to know that a hub is available. I see on the website that there are 29 connected hubs in my own county of Roscommon and just eight of them are on the Connected Hubs website. In County Galway it is nearly a 50:50 split where 28 hubs are listed on the Connected Hubs website but 31 hubs are not. What is the Department doing to ensure that all of the hubs are on the website and available to the public, not just the local community but people travelling, visitors and tourists visiting these areas? I ask because it is important that is made available.

I have another question for the Department about the work done by the broadband task force. What progress has been made to utilise public assets for the deployment of wireless broadband networks? Eurona is a provider based in County Roscommon. Eurona has a very proactive policy of taking customers off their wireless service and putting them on to the fibre service as soon as it becomes available. Eurona has equipment that was used for wireless networks that is now surplus to requirement. There are more peripheral areas in my county and in every other county that are at the tail end of the deployment of the national broadband plan that could get a wireless service in the short term if the equipment was redeployed. The wireless operators are telling me that the costs for them to source a site, put power into that site and erect equipment means the benefit would be quite limited. Water reservoirs, for example, are on isolated and high sites that usually have a power supply. Such sites are ideal locations to deploy wireless equipment in the short term and should be made available free of charge to any wireless operator that wants to provide a service and extend the existing wireless network pending the deployment of the fibre network. It does not make financial sense for wireless operators to invest in new capital because that will have a limited life span. If local authorities and the public infrastructure could be used then it would facilitate the provision of a basic service in areas pending the deployment of the fibre network. What is being done to facilitate that in the short term pending the delivery of the fibre network?

I have a question for the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications on Eir's legacy copper network. Eir's representatives are talking to the regulator about removing its copper wire as soon as the fibre network is deployed. We have two cohorts. We have the people in the reddish brown area whom I spoke about earlier. They have been abandoned because of the EU Commission's definition of high-speed broadband. There are also other people who have copper wires and maybe they are older people who do not see the benefit of fibre cable. What is the timeline for the removal of the copper wire? What will be done for customers who have a legal requirement at the moment for a phoneline? As Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment, I requested that that same legal requirement would be provided for broadband as well into the future. Is that now in place? Will those customers be able to access the service in a smooth transition but at the same price so they are not funding the additional costs into the future?

My final question is probably more an issue for the regulator but I ask the witnesses to indicate whether there will be a cost involved for the removal of the cable. It is very valuable cable. I would hate to see telephone customers being charged for the removal of the cables when it is very valuable material that could be used for other purposes.

At the moment, there is a 33% year-on-year increase in subscriptions. At the moment these guys are doing 3,500 a month. We understand between Eir and SIRO, there are 8,000 done a month. That is 12,000 a month getting connected with fibre. Fibre is now the dominant connection technology. It has surpassed cable, surpassed mediacell and every other technology. As of today, about 620,000 people are connected to fibre. In 2017, that figure was about 20,000. It is a phenomenal change.

To come back to the national school in County Roscommon, I am surprised a blue area is still there and we have not been told about it. I am taking that on today because we have changed thousands of premises that were blue into amber, as members know, so we will get to that straight away. If there is fibre on either side of it, that should be sorted very quickly. In fairness to Mr. Hendrick, he cannot address that, because if it is blue, it is not his problem. I will try to make it his problem next week, I promise.

An Cathaoirleach

Mr. Mulligan was not the only one who was surprised about it.

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

That seems like a communication gap. Why was it blue in the first place? There was misinformation. People told us it was connected and it was not. We will deal with that as soon as possible because we want every school done. The three that are left are just Mr. Hendrick's problem. He has promised me they will be done by the end of the year. I believe him.

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Next week.

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

That is in good hands. He has a fourth one now as I see it.

In regard to copper switch-off, I understand a decision has been made by ComReg on how that process should work for regulated products on Eir's network. One key distinction we need to make on copper switch-off is on copper removal. Eir has only proposed switching off the copper. There is no plan to remove it from any poles or from any ducting. That would be a concern to the Department. As part of the mobile broadband task force we will bring up over the next number of months the issue of what is the process to remove copper on poles. If as we understand, ComReg is to give a plan to Eir, because it has to do so, we do not believe there will be any copper switched off in the next two to three years. We do not know but that is the indication from ComReg. It could be 2026 before switch-off starts. It will be on a phased basis, area by area.

There is possibly a misconception that the removal of copper is going to be a windfall gain to whoever removes it. Copper is on these poles but it is a very small element of the cable and it is surrounded by a lot of steel protection. It will cost a lot of money to remove. Whether there is eventually a significant gain from removing it is yet to be seen and that again depends on the price of copper on any given day and spot markets and so forth. It is a very big project. One of the things we are going to look into with ComReg and through our own Department is how we actually get a communication process throughout the country so that people understand what this means. In the event that people are on copper and they need it for a cash machine, a pharmacy or indeed for medical devices in the home, we need to ensure the power does not go off. That is part of the ComReg job and it is part of the decision it published, that the consumer and the end user is not to be negatively impacted by the switching off or removal of copper and there is a seamless transition to the next available technology. Mary or Johnny Murphy should not see the difference. That is what the decision from ComReg says, as I understand it. On the cost differential, ComReg also said they should not see a cost, or certainly a cost that is overly burdensome, in that transition. That is what the decision says, as I understand it. That was published just a few weeks ago. It was notified to the European Commission and that is in place, as I understand it, in law.

The joint committee went into private session at 12.25 p.m. and adjourned at 12.31 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 22 November 2023.

Joint Committee on Social Protection, Community and Rural Development and the Islands debate - Wednesday, 15 Nov 2023

Roll-out and Delivery of Broadband in Rural Areas: Discussion

Mr. Fintan O'Brien

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Mr. T.J. Malone

Mr. T.J. Malone

Ms Tara Collins

Ms Tara Collins

Ms Tara Collins

Ms Tara Collins

Ms Tara Collins

Ms Tara Collins

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Mr. T.J. Malone

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

Mr. Fintan O'Brien

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Ms Tara Collins

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Mr. Fintan O'Brien

Mr. Brendan Whelan

Mr. Brendan Whelan

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Mr. T.J. Malone

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

Mr. Kevin O'Donoghue

Mr. Kevin O'Donoghue

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

Mr. Brendan Whelan

Mr. Fintan O'Brien

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

Mr. Gavin Brown

Mr. Gavin Brown

Mr. Gavin Brown

Mr. Fintan O'Brien

Mr. Fintan O'Brien

Mr. Fergal O'Brien

Mr. Fintan O'Brien

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

Mr. Fergal Mulligan

Mr. Peter Hendrick

Joint Committee on Social Protection, Community and Rural Development and the Islands debate -
Wednesday, 15 Nov 2023