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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION debate -
Tuesday, 16 Dec 2008

Constitutional Referendum Process: Discussion.

Are the minutes of the meeting of 9 December agreed? Agreed.

I welcome our guests and thank members for attending. The Joint Committee on the Constitution is currently undertaking a review of the constitutional referendum procedure covered in Articles 46 and 47 of the Constitution. This is the last in a series of meetings which the committee is holding with different organisations and individuals to hear their views and perspectives on how information is imparted to the public during the course of referendum campaigns. On the conclusion of this phase early in the new year we will present a report setting out the committee's opinion on this matter to the Houses of the Oireachtas.

I welcome Mr. Michael MacGrath, chairman of the Broadcasting Complaints Commission, and Ms Anne O'Brien, secretary of the commission. We are grateful to you for attending and assisting us in our deliberations. We also thank you for your written submission and the appendices. I must point out that members of the committee have absolute privilege but that same privilege does not apply to witnesses.

I note that there is an introduction to the submission and a number of appendices. Appendix 1 concerns complaints regarding the coverage of the Lisbon treaty and appendix 2 concerns advertisements which were to be inserted by the European Commission representation in Ireland.

We would be happy to hear your comments on your submission. Mr. Territt was before the committee two weeks ago and referred to the matter and we would like to hear what you have to say on the issue.

Mr. Michael MacGrath

I thank you, Chairman, for the invitation to Ms O'Brien and myself to assist the committee in its deliberations on a very important matter. In the introduction to our submission we refer to the areas which we specifically address in the submission, namely, the two areas of impartiality and objectivity in news and current affairs and we also deal with the advertising codes. I have attempted to follow as best I can the committee's deliberations and it is important to put in context the different potential areas of intervention by the BCC. These are two areas but there has been considerable reference to the Colgan case, which has been debated by the committee. The third area that has not been addressed, because it did not arise in the context of the last referendum, is uncontested debates, which were known as party political broadcasts under the previous legislation.

We are examining Articles 46 and 47 as they relate to referenda in general and not specifically as they relate to the last referendum. It does include all previous referenda.

Mr. Michael MacGrath

We do not specifically address the Coughlan case in our submission but, clearly, it has exercised the minds of this committee.

The BCC is complaint driven. In other words, we have no monitoring role. We receive a complaint from a complainant, which must be in writing and which must be made within a certain time of the broadcast about which a complaint is made. Under current legislation, that is a 30-day period. Thereafter, the broadcaster is given a period within which to respond and the response is then given to the complainant. If he or she accepts the response, it is deemed to be a resolved complaint and it does not go before the board. While decisions are published, other complaints are resolved and do not go to the board for consideration.

In the assessment of a complaint, the commission must consider it on its own merits and, in this regard, it is important for the commission in its work to look into many contextual factors. How does the complaint arise? What is the nature of the complaint? What type of programme is involved? Who are the participants in the programme? Is it a matter of public interest? Has a fair right of reply been provided? Has a fair representation of opposing views been expressed? It should also be borne in mind that the broadcaster decides who should appear on the broadcast and that is a fundamental right. It is up to the broadcaster to decide who will appear. It is important in the commission's assessment of a complaint to consider whether, in the overall contest of the broadcast, the subject matter has been treated fairly. I will return to this later.

While we have a general code of advertising now, previously various Acts dealt with advertising. The concept of advertising not being directed towards any religious or political end or not having any relation to an industrial dispute is not new, as it goes back to the Broadcasting Act 1960 when RTE and the RTE Authority were formed. Subsequently, when independent broadcasters were licensed in the mid-1980s, the concept made its way into the legislation covering them. This provision is nothing new.

I refer to the legislative provisions. Page 2 of the submission refers to section 24 of the Broadcasting Act 2001. The thrust of this section is synopsised in the second paragraph. We state:

These provisions require all licensed broadcasters to ensure that (a) all news broadcast by them is reported and presented in an objective and impartial manner and without any expression of the broadcaster's own views [that specifically relates to news] and (b) the broadcast treatment of current affairs, including matters, which are either of public controversy or the subject of current public debate is fair to all interests concerned and that the broadcast matter is presented in an objective and impartial manner and without any expression of the broadcaster's own view. Provided that should it prove impracticable in relation to a single broadcast to apply this paragraph, two or more related broadcasts may be considered as a whole if the broadcasts are transmitted within a reasonable period of each other.

Page 3 refers to adjudication of complaints — fairness, impartiality and objectivity. In the context of the constitutional referendum process, the current board of the BCC has adjudicated on complaints concerning the Lisbon treaty. We have reproduced at the back of the submission the details and outcomes of the complaints. Members will observe that one main argument relating to the complaints was that the "Yes" side received more favourable coverage than the "No" side. Of the 21 complaints referred to in the appendix, 20 alleged a bias in favour of the "Yes" campaign. All the complaints were considered. The main function of the BCC was to consider whether the subject matter had been treated fairly, which included considering whether views and opinions were sufficiently challenged and-or whether a sufficiently even handed discussion on all the main issues was facilitated. All the complaints assessed by the board were rejected. A total of 17 complaints went to the board while four were resolved before they came to the board.

I refer to an issue addressed to the committee, which is the question of the allocation of time by the commission in the context of a complaint about fairness, impartiality and objectivity. The committee has requested that the commission provides information on decisions made in 2007 concerning complaints against advertisements placed by European Commission representation in Ireland. I am conscious in making the submission of the nature of the due process the BCC undertakes and its independent role in decision-making. However, we are also willing to assist the committee in its understanding of our decisions.

In its decision, the commission considered the nature of the entity, which was the European Union, and the members concluded the EU was capable of having a political dimension or to be a political ideal. The commission also acknowledged in its decision that it was beneficial that a citizen would be aware of his or her rights and it was conscious of the fact that any decision it made on the complaints would not have the effect of impeding or restricting the dissemination of information on the rights of EU citizens. The commission also had to be cognisant of the fact that legislation prohibits advertisements aimed towards a political end.

The commission was of the opinion in regard to these decisions that the EU is capable of being considered a political ideal and that, therefore, advertisements directed in favour of or promoting such an ideal are capable of being considered political. However, an informational advertisement not directed in favour of or promoting such an ideal might not be considered political, thus, in the opinion of the commission, advertisements promoting the benefits of EU membership were capable of being directed towards a political end within the meaning of the advertising legislation and the prohibition on advertising of certain matter and, therefore, considering the text of the each of the nine advertisements, the commission had to determine whether, in its opinion, the content was informational or promotional in nature. An important High Court decision in 1988 dealt specifically with this topic. The commission had to be cognisant of the decision of Mr. Justice Philip O'Sullivan in the case of Colgan v. IRTC. Members will have seen the outcome of the various complaints in this regard. The BCI introduced a new advertising code in April 2007 but it reiterates the provision on advertisements in place before the introduction of the code.

I will make some general observations on impartiality and objectivity in current affairs. It is important to underline that the commission must have regard to the fair treatment of the subject matter. Sometimes people complain that "A" or "B" was not treated fairly, but the commission is primarily concerned that the subject matter is treated fairly. Both sides of a controversial issue or a matter of public importance must be given a fair hearing by the broadcaster. In the context of the Lisbon treaty referendum, the commission had to consider whether the major factual issues and opinions concerning the treaty were treated in an objective and fair manner, which included being fair to all interests concerned. The public was being asked to vote "Yes" or "No". Therefore, any coverage had to ensure both sides of the debate were treated in an impartial and fair manner and afforded sufficient opportunity to express views and opinions. This does not require that all main views be reflected in a single broadcast. The broadcaster must ensure a wide range of significant views are facilitated during the relevant period.

On the advertising codes, the commission must determine if an advertisement has a political end. If it does, the commission has no alternative but to apply the law and determine it to be in breach of the legislation which prohibits such an advertisement. While paragraphs (a) and (e) of section 24(2) apply to two programming formats, in arriving at its determinations the commission has to consider whethere there is a common thread and aim to ensure the democratic process is facilitated and supported. The right to vote in a referendum on the Lisbon or any other treaty is a constitutional right for all citizens. Therefore, one would expect both sides of the debate to be heard.

The decision in the case of Coughlan v. BCC concerned non-contentious debates in the presentation of almost a party political broadcast. The Supreme Court decision is clear in the application of principles to such a broadcast. Members of the committee will have considered that decision. It is important to remember that it concerned broadcasts in the context of a referendum, the special significance the Supreme Court afforded to the referendum process and the involvement of the people in it. On this occasion, because there were no such broadcasts we did not have to adjudicate on any issue under that heading.

I thank Mr. MacGrath for coming. At our last meeting I mentioned that I had found the decisions on the radio advertisements in question odd. Nobody disputed the facts in the advertisements; they were correct. As the advertising campaign did not take place between the passing of referendum legislation and the referendum, it was outside the referendum period. I found it difficult to understand how anybody could object to these facts, unless they wanted them to be suppressed, and how they could be held to be promotional rather than informational. That seems to be the nub of the issue for Mr. MacGrath.

Mr. MacGrath has said six of the nine advertisements could be considered to be promotional from the point of view of membership of the European Union. I have a difficulty in understanding this. Perhaps Mr. MacGrath might clarify the matter. We were not applying to become a member of the European Union. We are a member. Nobody has said we should leave the Union. Therefore, we were being given information on our membership which was not promoting the notion that we should join the Union. I could understand it if we were outside it and there was a view about promoting the idea that we should join. How could information on our membership be considered to be promotional since we are a member?

Mr. Michael MacGrath

I hope I can assist the Deputy. An advertisement does not have to be in the context of a referendum for it to fall foul of the provisions of section 10. On the High Court decision in the case of Colgan v. IRTC, Youth Defence, the pro-life group, had sought to place an advertisement which was prohibited by the IRTC. One of the arguments addressed was that there was no referendum but the High Court held that this was not germane. The nature of the advertisement was germane. The fact that it was not submitted during a referendum process——

But it was promoting a view.

Mr. Michael MacGrath

It was. I will read it out:

Project truth [the name of the people who placed the advertisement]. (Sound effects: muffled tiny heart beats on echo) Announcer: Her heart has been beating since she was 18 days old, at eight weeks she is perfectly formed, she sucks her thumb and she already has 20 milk teeth buds. (Sound effects: heart beat stops) Announcer: In another two weeks she would have had finger nails. She might have grown up to be a doctor, a scientist, a mother, but now nobody will ever know. Have you any conception what abortion is all about?

It was then stated this message was sponsored by project truth, a Youth Defence project. That was not in the context of any referendum or proposed referendum. The High Court found that the timing did not matter, but whether it conveyed a political message. As a commission, we are bound by the law. Last week one of the committee's contributors made a, presumably unintentional, reference to the BCC's ban on an advertisement. It is not our ban; it is the law. We apply the law. I hope that deals with the first part of the Deputy's question.

The second part of the Deputy's question concerns whether an advertisement is informational or promotional. It may be that there is a matter of degree and there may be a fine line between the two. I am conscious that the Chairman has not called me here to justify decisions we have made, but we took the view that the six advertisements contained positive messages about the European Union. One of the examples we gave was:

Did you know that since 1973 Ireland has received over €55 billion from the European Union? This money has supported Irish industry, supplemented farm incomes [etc.].

Mr. Michael MacGrath

Yes, I will come to that. The other example was, "Did you know that telephone calls and airfares cost less now than they did 15 years ago?" While these are all facts, they promote a positive message about the European Union. Let us suppose some party which is opposed to our membership of the Union decided to place an advertisement starting along the same lines as what we see here: "Did you know that since 1973 Irish fish stocks have been depleted by X%?" It goes on to say, "For more information, contact....." and a telephone number or website address is given. That is the flip side of the coin. It gives a negative political message. Our interpretation of the legislation and our application of the principles outlined in the Colgan case would cause such an advertisement to fall foul.

I take Mr. McGrath's point. Nevertheless, with regard to fish or anything else, people are entitled to know the facts.

Mr. Michael MacGrath

I give that as an example of a message being projected by what is being said.

I am reminded of the lines of Coventry Patmore:

When all its work is done, the lie shall rot;

The truth is great, and shall prevail.

I live by that. I have no problem with negative facts about the EU being advertised.

Mr. MacGrath said 20 of every 21 complainants came from the "No" side. They must have been watching every programme to find grounds for complaint. He will be aware of this committee's discussion on the application of stop-watch mechanics to impartiality. I would like to hear more from him on that issue. The original Coughlan decision referred to party political broadcasts and is not an issue, as they have been ended. I am concerned about the need for stop-watch impartiality. At a recent meeting of this committee, Mr. Anthony Coughlan accepted that there was nothing in the Lisbon treaty concerning conscription. I did not hear him say that before the referendum but he admitted it recently to this committee. Could the stop-watch not be put aside when total misinformation is being rebutted? Should a person promoting an objective in a referendum have to use a large part of his or her stop-watch time in rebutting outright lies?

Mr. Michael MacGrath

Deputy O'Keeffe may have noted from some of our decisions that we do not regard equality of time as a fundamental aspect of fairness. We ask if there has been fair treatment of the subject matter. I understand the principle of equality of time is applied by broadcasters in some countries. Our approach is to ask if, for example, the interventions of a broadcaster or the contributions of panel members on a current affairs programme have made for a fair debate or presentation of views. We are less interested in whether Deputy O'Keeffe was given 25 minutes and Deputy Penrose five, or whatever. Judging impartiality with a stop-watch might involve unfairness. That is why we are reluctant to use that approach. The Supreme Court took a different view about party political broadcasts because they are uncontested. The BCC does not use a stop-watch.

Mr. MacGrath says his remit is qualified. The commission responds to complaints rather than carrying out ongoing monitoring. Several years ago a series of advertisements announced that various national development plan projects were funded by the Government and the European Union. Would those have come within the ambit of this complaint? Is Mr. MacGrath saying no such complaint was made at the time?

Mr. Michael MacGrath

Ms O'Brien would have more information on that.

Ms Anne O’Brien

We only react when we get a complaint.

It would seem to be a similar principle.

Ms Anne O’Brien

We received complaints in this area before the European Direct advertisement, but not regarding the advertisements Senator Boyle mentions.

Several years ago in France, an election programme was broadcast in which every 24th frame was an image of Francois Mitterand. It could not be seen but it registered in the mind of the viewer. The same could be done with a Vote "Yes" or Vote "No" image in a referendum campaign. Has the BCC ever received a complaint about something of that nature, or would it be within the commission's remit?

If the image was not seen who would make the complaint?

It is seen subliminally.

Mr. Michael MacGrath

We have not received such a complaint. Senator Boyle has touched on a very important point. The BCC is complaint driven and we do not intervene unless a complaint is made. The BCC deals with the complaint as formulated by the complainant. We do not engage in a wide ranging investigation of a particular programme merely because a general complaint has been made. We deal with the specific complaint and the specific response of the broadcaster to it.

Was the BCC judgment in this regard made on the basis that facts were stated and then qualified in advertisement? What if it had simply said that since 1973 Ireland has received €55 billion, and stopped at that point? The advertisement went on to endorse the EU and its benefits for farmers and industry. That was the representational aspect of the advertisement.

Mr. Michael MacGrath

I am reluctant to deal with a hypothetical case. I am one of seven members of the commission and other members might have a different view of how the principles apply. It can be difficult to discern when an advertisement goes beyond being informational and becomes promotional. With the experience of dealing with complaints, one can judge when an advertisement passes that point. I am reluctant to use hypothetical situations, although I confess I used a hypothetical situation to illustrate the flip side of the coin.

Does the commission adjudicate on the basis of the facts as presented in an advertisement, although they may be from the wrong source? Some of the advertisements mentioned gave the impression that lower air fares and telephone calls were the result of European Union membership. Where do national government and policies come in? Can the BCC make a judgment that facts are being presented in the wrong terms?

Mr. Michael MacGrath

Generally, the complainant makes his or her complaint and if a fact is being challenged, he or she will address it by saying the information is wrong for certain reasons. The broadcaster responds and clarifies whether it is correct. If the matter is not resolved, it will go back to the complainant to obtain his or her views on the broadcaster's response. The complainant stating something as a fact does not determine the issue, as all sides are heard.

This is a very interesting case that highlights a serious problem. The nine items of information on the European Union that were the subject of the complaint which the commission upheld were designed to inform people about the Union. The effect of banning such advertising is to keep them in ignorance of it. The Lisbon treaty referendum polls show that 42% voted "No" because they did not have enough information. This shows a lack of general awareness of the link between people's lives and the Union.

It is absurd to classify the European Union as a political entity. That is like saying Ireland is a political entity because, like the Union, it pursues ideals set out in the Constitution. It is like suggesting Ireland, separate from its political parties, is a political actor. This premise is illogical. Another illogical aspect covers the contents of advertising. I have seen inconsistencies in this regard. For example, the eighth item which asks, "Did you know that European Union legislation ensures equality of treatment?", is considered promotional and fell foul of the commission. The ninth item indicates "the European Union has legislation to protect the environment", which is considered acceptable because it provides information. I fail to see the distinction between promotion and information. These are all facts.

It is the interests of the common good that people understand the system within which they operate and under which they are governed. It has been correctly pointed out in the decision that people are governed by the European Union, as they are by the State. The first issue relates to the analysis of the pursuance of political ideals and the other to the contents of advertising. It seems the commission may have been influenced by its introduction by Commissioner McCreevy who presented it in a particular way. However, that is an extraneous factor that is not germane to the contents of radio advertising. This is an issue the commission should address.

Another issue to be addressed is that of the background to changes in EU treaties. It is not the European Union that changes treaties but member states. Treaties amend existing treaties and the actors involved pursuing changes are the governments of member states. The judgment relied on by the commission in the case of Colgan v. IRTC states an advertisement has a political end, within the meaning of the Act, if it is directed towards seeking to change or counter a suggested change in the law, Government policy or decisions, either within or outside the jurisdiction. I do not see how these advertisements come within that category, although I appreciate the commission came to a different decision. There were serious flaws in its reasoning and the end result was an absurdity that placed a premium on not informing people of the legislative and governmental system within which they lived.

Mr. Michael MacGrath

Again, to be clear on my role, I will not justify a particular decision because I must be conscious of the independent role of the Broadcasting Complaints Commission. However, I will attempt to deal as best I can with some of the issues raised by the Senator. He speaks about the European Union. One of the advertisements at which we looked asked, "Do you know that since 1973 Ireland has received over €55 billion from the European Union?" Imagine if that advertisement indicated, "Since 2002 the Government has increased employment by X".

Mr. MacGrath is not comparing like with like, as the Government and European Union are not the same. They may be compared.

Mr. Michael MacGrath

Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree. I respect the Senator's view but think the decision we took was clear in its terms, regardless of whether one agrees with it. As indicated on the last occasion, if a person considered there was a fundamental flaw in that decision, he or she could have sought redress through a judicial review but that step was not taken. In terms of a judicial review and the availability of a remedy, committee members may recall that a previous board dealt with the Coughlan case and rejected the complainant's case on the allocation of time for party political broadcasts. That case was taken to the High Court and the Supreme Court which established the current position.

I thank the Chairman, Mr. MacGrath and Ms O'Brien. I am still at a loss regarding the definitions of "promotional" and "informational". Mr. Territt attended the last committee meeting and pointed out that while the advertisement dated from October 2006, the Lisbon treaty referendum was not called until April 2007. I cannot understand how the BCC can determine that an advertisement is political in nature when it does not suggest people should vote "Yes" or "No". The Taoiseach has indicated there may be another referendum in October 2009. Is Mr. MacGrath suggesting that if a party placed an advertisement today indicating Ireland has received €55 billion from the European Union, he would ban it?

Mr. Michael MacGrath

I am not suggesting a particular advertisement would be banned; the BCC does not ban things, it applies the law to given advertisements. The first point made by the Deputy deals with timing, an issue which I hope I addressed in my reply to Deputy O'Keeffe.

When the BCC considers whether an advertisement is directed towards a political end which is prohibited by legislation, it must consider every aspect of the advertisement, not just one or two lines. It must be considered in context and in terms of who is placing it. Such facts must be considered, as if a particular line is taken out of the overall context of an advertisement, it may not be the case that it would be banned. I cannot speak in advance because a person may make a complaint about a certain advertisement and they must be taken on a case by case basis. If an advertisement is informational, as some of the advertisements were, it is difficult to see how it could be deemed to be directed towards a political end.

Senator Regan mentioned the eighth item which asks, "Did you know that European Union legislation ensures equality of treatment?" My recollection is that the word "ensure" was on the minds of the commission at that time. If it had been phrased in such as way as to ask if people knew that European Union legislation was "guaranteed to" or "designed to" ensure equality of treatment maybe a different result would have emerged. It is a question of degree and whether the advertisement crosses the line between being informational and being promotional.

I gave an example in connection with the fisheries. As Deputy Jim O'Keeffe said, it qualifies as information but, when viewed in context, it clearly sends out a particular message.

Is Mr. MacGrath suggesting we need the Supreme Court to determine the definition of the words "promotion" or "information"? Did he know the EU gave us €55 billion? That is a fact and it is information.

I am prejudiced in this matter as I am clearly a "Yes" voter. I believe the EU has been good for Ireland and will continue to be so but I cannot understand the logic of the board in making a distinction between promotion and information. Promoting involves injunctions such as to "Vote Michael Kennedy", or to "Vote Yes" or "Vote No" but none of the advertisements in question mentioned the word "vote". In October 2006 the EU was giving out information.

The Broadcasting Complaints Commission presumed there would be a referendum and that might have been a logical thing to do, given what happened in respect of the Nice referendum. However, at the time the Government had not decided there would be a referendum. Does Mr. MacGrath accept that point? How does the Broadcasting Complaints Commission envisage the EU or any other body providing information that does not compromise its rules and regulations?

Mr. Michael MacGrath

I hope I dealt with the first issue on timing. The question of whether an advertisement is shown in the context of a referendum does not determine whether it breaches the rules or the law. I mentioned the Colgan case in that regard.

We made it quite clear that it was not the role of the BCC to prevent or ban information about the European Union from being transmitted to the public. Those who place advertisements should give some consideration to the manner in which the advertisement is formulated in the first instance. It is difficult to speak in a vacuum and I can only deal with decisions we have made but we have a statutory remit and must consider all aspects of a particular advertisement, including the question of who places it, its tone, content and tenor and the information being imparted. That is how we see our remit under current legislation.

A judicial review would be impractical for the majority of appellants, who would not go down that route because of monetary considerations, but if somebody appeals a decision isthere an arbitration mechanism whereby they can challenge the verdict or suggest the BCC did not consider certain factors?

Mr. Michael MacGrath

In general, there is no mechanism for an appeal on the merits of a decision by the BCC. The option of a judicial review is open to a disappointed respondent.

Does Mr. MacGrath think legislation should be changed to allow for such a mechanism?

Mr. Michael MacGrath

As I understand it the Broadcasting Bill 2008 is before the Dáil and does not make any provision for an extra layer in the process for that purpose.

I agree with Deputy Jim O'Keeffe that the situation is absurd. We are members of the European Union, it is our Union and we have decided as a country that we want to be part of it. From its outset, there have been people who objected and who looked for every mechanism possible to turn people against it. That is their entitlement in a free and open society. If somebody places an advertisement to inform people that fish stocks have reduced since we joined that is fair — as long as it is factual and not misinformation.

It is obvious to Members of the Oireachtas, who meet thousands of people, that nobody is impartial — everybody has a view on something. That is a good thing and we do not want to be like the Soviet Republics, which I saw in operation. People were told what they could do and say and one could not even say something was being done well. Openness and equal access are important.

We do not criticise the BCC but we are not doing a good job in this regard. We met people who were totally confused and did not know what the European Union had done for Ireland. Some €55 billion went towards construction of schools and other projects but people do not realise it and one of the European Union's problems is that it is not getting the information across. It has tried various ways and advertising is one of them. Taxpayers' money is paid into the European Union so the European Union has a duty to tell people where it is spent. If people do not agree, they can place an advertisement telling people their own version of the story, such as, for example, that fish stocks have gone down. The moment one says anything one takes sides but that is what politics is all about. It is important that people have the freedom to express their views.

Lack of information was a major cause of confusion during the referendum campaign but this decision ensures that there will be no good information. Information also needs to be lively, especially if people are not very interested in the subject. We must find a way of ensuring Ireland Inc. gets its message across while allowing anybody who wants to object to do so. Balance is a factor and there are factors relating to the size of particular groups but that is the same in respect of the courts. The ordinary man and woman in the street says it is impossible to take a case through the courts, notwithstanding the legal aid provisions. The commission will have significant funding available but there is a major onus on it to provide honest factual information. We must try to find a system that allows that to happen. Our broadcasting authorities are in the middle and they have a huge impact in getting messages across. I find these decisions extraordinary because for most of my life I have been trying to get information across to people that they do not have. They think they have it but they do not. One must use vivid and dramatic ways to get it across.

I refer to the current worldwide crisis. It was clear before the last election that we would have difficulties going forward for a variety of reasons but nobody knew how widespread and difficult would be the crisis. Many people still do not realise how bad is the scenario and how much we will have to do to get ourselves out of it but we will do that. Unless information is disseminated in many different ways, it does not impact on people and they do not take it in. If we start circumscribing the information, as happened with the EU in this case, I cannot see how one can get one's information across through powerful broadcast media.

If a referendum is run on the basis of the issues involved, there is no problem regarding the allocation of time and how presenters put the issues. However, when false issues are brought into the equation which are emotional and grab at the heart strings, such as those concerning conscription, abortion and neutrality, in a referendum that has nothing to do with them, how can complaints be made against the programme spending time on these issues, which are irrelevant to the main debate and topics under discussion?

Mr. Michael MacGrath

The Chairman is dealing with the question of fairness and objectivity as opposed to the question of advertising. There is an obligation on the broadcaster to ensure the debate is fair, which the broadcaster does in a number of different ways. It may be that only one person on a panel is interviewed and there is an obligation on the broadcaster in those circumstances to challenge the views being put forward. If there are different members on the panel, the broadcaster can do that. If that is not done fairly, there is a mechanism by which a complaint can be made. If, for example, somebody is allowed to make unfounded allegations that are not properly challenged, it is up to somebody else to complain. Initially it is up to the broadcaster to ensure that does not happen and, if it does, to redress the balance. If the broadcaster does not fulfil its function in that regard, a complaint can be made against it.

The BCC is a more reactive than proactive body in that we deal with the complaints as they arise rather than prescribe for the future, which is a matter for legislators.

This is an important matter and while we are discussing a decision the BCC has made, it may be relevant to our deliberations and for future decisions the commission might make. Mr. MacGrath referred in advertisement No. 8 to the concern the commission had that the EU legislation "ensures" equality of treatment. However, he allowed advertisement No. 2 on the basis it was purely information but it states there is EU legislation "to ensure that the food you buy is safe". In one case the advertisement is deemed to be promotional but the other is deemed to be informational. It is a fine line, as Mr. MacGrath said, but the problem is the facts themselves are promotional, such as Ireland received €55 billion, legislation is in place relating to the environment and food quality, and ERASMUS is a successful student exchange programme. However, the problem is the facts are promotional in that people are given information about the benefits of the Union. Mr. MacGrath said the commission jumps outside this and says "What if we have an advertisement which suggested the Union has not been so good for the fisheries sector?", but that has nothing to do with these advertisements. The commission changed the logic and reasoning of the decision.

Mr. Michael MacGrath

Advertisement No. 2 states, "Do you know that the European Union has legislation to protect the environment? Do you know that there is European Union legislation to ensure that the food you buy is safe?" We considered that to be informational in nature.

Yes, but not the other one, which refers to ensuring equality of treatment. The wording is practically identical.

Mr. Michael MacGrath

The commission took a different view because one says the legislation is there to "ensure" something while the other says the legislation "ensures" equality of treatment. The issue is what message is being put across by the advertisement. Does it espouse a positive or negative message about the EU or is it informational?

That is far removed from advocacy as laid down in the Colgan judgment, on which the commission relies. It is information about the EU and if it is correct, the facts speak for themselves. The commission looked for a reason to reject the advertisement, which is unfortunate, because it means there is a barrier to providing information about the Union. No body is better placed to do that than the European Commission.

Mr. Michael MacGrath

I would like to respond because I would not like it to be said that we looked for a reason to reject or accept anything. We consider the facts, the complaint and the broadcast and we make a bona fide decision.

I appreciate it is a bone fide decision but I disagree with it.

That is allowed. I thank Mr. MacGrath for attending and assisting us in our deliberations.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.10 p.m. until Wednesday, 7 January 2009.
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