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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION debate -
Wednesday, 23 Sep 2009

Electoral System for Dáil Éireann: Discussion.

This is the first meeting of the joint committee's review of the functioning of the electoral system for the election of Members of Dáil Éireann, as prescribed by Article 16 of the Constitution. By way of background, the Joint Committee on the Constitution has been appointed by the Houses of the Oireachtas to complete a full review of the Constitution and to establish areas where constitutional change may be desirable or necessary. In this current phase of its work programme, the committee has decided to undertake a review of the constitutional basis for the election of Members of Dáil Éireann.

This review does not solely concern constitutional change. Perhaps the most important part of our work will be assessing whether the current electoral system contributes to viable parliamentary democracy in this country. Since the foundation of the State in 1922, Members have been elected to Dáil Éireann under the system of proportional representation by means of the single transferable vote, PRSTV, in multi-seat constituencies. As politicians, we are keenly aware of the often repeated claim that the present system results in relentless competition not only between parties but also among members of the same party and diverts attention from parliamentary duties to a constant preoccupation with constituency issues. The electorate has broadly supported PRSTV. In 1959 and 1968, referenda were held on proposals to change from PRSTV to a first past the post system but on both occasions the proposals were rejected by the people.

However, the committee is also keenly aware that there are challenges confronting the political system today that require effective political institutions to address them. Therefore, the committee feels there are many good reasons to look again at the electoral system to determine if it remains fit for purpose in the current environment. For example, the body of legislation considered by the Parliament has increased significantly. There is a perception that Deputies must be released from the burden inherent in a multi-seat constituency in order to contribute effectively to the legislative process. Legislation that has not been properly scrutinised must be amended, or may even be challenged in the courts, repealed and need to be replaced with new legislation because of mistakes that could have been spotted and dealt with at the time of its passage through the Houses.

The legislative process itself may also need to be changed to allow greater input by all Members of Parliament. For example, it is usually the party spokespersons who are involved in debating and proposing amendments to the legislation, particularly during Committee Stage of the process. Backbench Members, whichever party is in government, get little opportunity to make constructive contributions to this process.

This review, therefore, will allow an up-to-date examination of the functioning of the current system as well as an evaluation of potential alternatives in light of international experiences of electoral system reform. We intend that this review will inform the ongoing debate about politics and the political institutions and we do so in the full knowledge that any future change would require the consent of the Irish people in a referendum.

In the course of our review we will endeavour to provide objective information to contribute to this debate. We are inviting contributions from both inside and outside politics to inform our deliberations, and over the next number of weeks we will take evidence from expert witnesses, Members of the Houses of the Oireachtas, the academic community and other interested parties.

Today I welcome Professor David Farrell who is the chair of politics in the school of politics and international relations in UCD and also Deputy Michael D. Higgins, adjunct professor at the Irish centre for human rights at NUIG and former lecturer in sociology and political science. We are grateful to both for taking the time to meet with us today. I also thank them for their submissions, which have been circulated to the members.

Before commencing, I want to inform Professor Farrell in particular that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee, including him. I invite Professor Farrell to make a presentation.

Professor David Farrell

As the Chairman stated, the comments I will speak to have been circulated in advance. I will try to speak to my submission and I am happy to elaborate further on any questions that follow.

Given the stage of the work of the committee, I thought I would focus on two themes at present, first, the effects of electoral systems on constituency representation and, second, the question of large-scale electoral reform and any associated pitfalls. As I speak, the members of the committee might find it useful to refer to the tables and figure at the back of my submission. That might make it a little easier as I proceed.

To set the scene, it is worth reminding ourselves of where the single transferable vote system lies in the world of electoral systems. There is, in table 1, the most up-to-date record of the different electoral systems currently in use in the world's democracies. Table 1 looks at 178 democracies. It shows that the single transferable vote is used in just two countries. As I am sure the committee will be aware, Ireland and Malta are the only two countries on this planet that use the single transferable vote for their elections to their main parliament. It is the least used electoral system. I am aware the committee already has notes about all of the other electoral systems and I do not propose to waste its time talking about them; I just wanted the committee to be aware of them.

Table 1 also shows the most up-to-date figures on the usual sort of aggregate trends in terms of the consequences of electoral systems. In terms of measures of disproportionality, the table shows how unfair certain electoral systems can be to small parties. The figures show pretty much what one would expect, that the non-proportional systems like the British single member plurality system, also known as first past the post, has a very bad record on disproportionality whereas, by contrast, the single transferable vote has a very good record. The single transferable vote produces the sort of result one would expect — a good proportional election result.

The final column — not wasting time on this unnecessarily at this stage because the committee will discuss it later — looks at the record in terms of the representation of women in the House. In general, the more proportional systems tend to do better in terms of the representation of women. There are particular issues to do with the single transferable vote that the committee will be discussing, and I will not go into that at this stage.

Those are the sort of trends that one would expect to see in terms of the electoral systems that are used today in the world and how they perform in terms of general aggregate measures. However, the question I wanted to consider first is the question of constituency representation because this is one of the principal issues the committee wanted to discuss, as the Chairman summarised in his opening remarks.

Figure 2 in my submission is an attempt to conceptualise how different electoral systems look in terms of ballot paper design. When one is looking at the constituency representation, the most important factor is what we call "the ballot structure", how much choice voters have when they go into the polling booth and make their election. Figure 2 shows, at the bottom left, what we call "closed list" systems. This is a summary of the European Parliament's electoral systems. At the bottom left of figure 2 is Spain, which is an example of a closed list system where when the voters go into the polling booth, literally all the voter can do, if he or she is a Christian Democrat voter, for example, is vote for the Christian Democrat list, and the order in which the politicians are elected is determined in advance by the parties; the voters have no say over that. At the top right of figure 2 is the other extreme, the single transferable vote where, as we all know, the voter can rank-order the politicians and determine the fate of each of the members in this room in terms of their individual representation of voters. The grey arrow in figure 2 is an attempt to conceptualise the range of options available in terms of ballot structure and the argument is that as one moves up the arrow, one increases the emphasis on individual constituency representation by politicians. As I stress, it is a conceptualisation, not a serious plotting of anything.

However, in the research my colleagues and I have done, we have tried to measure the extent to which ballot structure design affects the representative role of politicians. We carried out a large-scale representative survey of Members of the European Parliament in the then 25 member states, which included the Irish MEPs and those from countries using systems not unlike single transferable vote. What we found in our statistical analysis is that there is a relationship. There is evidence that the nature of the ballot structure design can affect the representative role of politicians and can cause a greater emphasis on constituency representation. It is summarised in my submission to the committee.

There is a debate in the academic literature about whether the electoral system or the political culture is causing this, and the fairest conclusion to draw is that the electoral system is able to facilitate a greater emphasis on constituency representation. If there is something about the political culture of a particular country or the way in which the political system operates in a particular country, if the electoral system is of a certain type, like single transferable vote, it is more inclined to facilitate a higher emphasis on constituency representation by politicians. That is really what the summary of the literature would state at this stage. Therefore, if, for example, one was thinking of shifting from the single transferable vote to an open list system, such as that used in Finland, it is likely that one would see very little effect in terms of the representative role of politicians in this country and it would still continue to be much the same. That is my first point.

My second point, after which I will stop, is the issue of large-scale reform. I understand that one of the questions the committee must consider is whether to recommend full-scale electoral reform — a shift away from the single transferable vote. All I would say is that before embarking on any large-scale electoral reform, it would be well to note two points. First, there is no such thing as a perfect electoral system, which is obvious but it is worth stressing and, second, electoral reform may actually be the wrong answer to the right question. Let me elaborate on both of those points quite quickly, starting with the first of those.

Table 2, the last of the tables in my submission, summarises the results of an expert survey that my colleagues and I carried out a few years ago. This was a survey of political science electoral systems experts from the American Political Science Association, the International Political Science Association and the Political Studies Association of the United Kingdom. This was about as good a sample as one could get of, supposedly, experts on electoral systems. We forced these experts — with some difficulty, I admit — to nail their colours to the mast and state which was their favourite electoral systems. With all of the warnings that academics like to give about there being no perfect electoral system, we held a gun to their head and asked what was the system they would most recommend if they really had to recommend one system. As can be seen from the table, the system that comes out on top is the German mixed member proportional system, also known as the AMS system. Coming in a very strong second is the single transferable vote. We have the ironic situation, therefore, that the single transferable vote may be the least used electoral system, but among electoral reformers and electoral systems experts it is one of the most popular. However, the point I want to make is that we were forcing the experts to nail their colours to the mast. Many of them refused to answer that question on the survey and those who did wrote all sorts of rude remarks on the side of the questionnaire to indicate they were only doing so because we asked them to do so.

In other words the real answer from the experts is that if one wants to know what the electoral system for one's country is, the answer is that it depends. It depends on what people want. If they want an electoral system that encourages the election of small parties, they will want proportional representation. If they want an electoral system that gives a strong role to the parties' selectorate in determining which candidates go to parliament, they will select a closed list system. If they want an electoral system that encourages and facilitates constituency representation, such as we have in this country, then they will probably want something like the single transferable vote. However, it all depends on the details people want for their political system. When giving real world advice there is no such thing as a perfect electoral system.

My second point is that electoral reform may be the wrong answer to the right question. If it is the concern that Deputies are paying too much attention to constituency representation, perhaps the solution might be to deal with institutional reform in other areas of Irish governance. While I know the members know this point, it is worth stressing. Perhaps the question should be reform of local government or reform of Civil Service practice or in key Departments like the Department of Social and Family Affairs. In other words perhaps the issue is less to do with the supply of local constituency service by Deputies and much more to do with the demand on Deputies by their constituents. That might be the better way to address the issue.

I say it might be the wrong answer to the right question because other countries have attempted electoral reform. In recent times there have been other cases of large-scale electoral reform. However, in truth since the early 1990s only four countries have engaged in full-scale electoral reform of their systems, namely, Israel, New Zealand, Japan and Italy. In two of those cases they reversed the decision years later. Israel reverted back to its original system. Italy has reverted to a variant of its system — there are details about that but none the less it changed its system again. I understand New Zealand is once again considering the possibility of changing its electoral system and may revert back to where it was. Of those four cases, one can only talk of the system bedding down in Japan. Perhaps this might give pause for thought as to whether full-scale electoral reform and a move away from the single transferable vote is the right answer. The question might be to consider institutional reform in other areas of Irish governance or perhaps the issue is to consider adaptations, improvements and fixes to the single transferable vote system.

I thank Professor Farrell for his interesting thoughts, which raise many issues.

I appreciate the invitation to be here. I will begin where Professor Farrell left off. Lest I lose the train of thought, let me make the assertion that changing the voting system would not necessarily improve the legislative process. I will explain why I hold this view in a few moments. Before I do and in order to make a connection with what Professor Farrell said, let me say that the Irish political system including its electoral system occurs in a political context. My work from 30 years ago and earlier comes from a tradition of political anthropology rather than a much later emphasis in political science on voting studies. One therefore sees traces in the Irish political system that it has inherited. It reflects a certain amount of continuity in its institutional structures about which Brian Farrell, for example, has written in the past. To some extent people presented this as a benefit, but it also has in the contemporary period some significant disadvantages.

The decolonisation experience in a political institutional sense was not homogenous across the board, even where the same colonising country was involved. An example would be the British relationship to India not being the same as its inheritance to Egypt, Sierra Leone or the mandate in Palestine. In other words consciously the departing power very often had to make a choice between elites in different countries. In the Irish case — in the country that was closest to it — it had inherited a certain kind of structure. The Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898 had changed local politics and had also introduced different groups of people into the political process. It was that process that gave rise to the overrepresentation of shopkeepers and publicans — it comes from that period — for very definite reasons. In that first election in 1898 the contest in rural areas was between grazier shopkeepers and non-grazier shopkeepers.

I do not want my work of 20 or 30 years ago to be misrepresented because I have now changed my position owing to circumstances and historical changes. When writing from those earlier years at the end of the 1960s and 1970s I was writing very much out of a literature that could be summarised under patrons, clients and brokers. I could identify very clearly the role of abuse of credit, for example, in electoral advantage. Today I would describe the literature I wrote then as most useful in terms of brokerage systems.

I will now make my major point. The Irish system is not clientelist now. Quite some time ago corruption defeated clientelism. There have been very few empirical studies dealing with clientelism. It is rather like the Irish suggestion, if I were going down the road of reform I would not begin from here. One needs to be very careful about assuming one will get the effect — one must specify the effect one would get — from reforming the electoral system. The bigger challenge is reforming the legislative process. There seems to be a very dangerous reluctance to deal with this. The inherited cabinet system needs to be looked at. Is it possible to claim to have an effective committee system while maintaining the monopoly of the Cabinet in the introduction of legislation? Is the role of the committee a residual one — one of scrutiny — or is it one to provide a platform for advocacy as in a number of cases? The system, for example, in the Scandinavian countries, is one where committees have the right to initiate legislation, amend legislation and can also block legislation and so forth.

Therefore, the committee system that has been introduced is weak and its weaknesses are not addressed only on other things, because I have done some comparative studies on foreign affairs committees and human rights committees, which are generally underfunded. Our committee system is not separate from the Government in power. It does not have, if one likes, that arms length distance that other committees have. Therefore, there are issues about Cabinet.

There is also an unspoken notion that one must not question the role of the Department of Finance in the Cabinet handbook. Those of us who have had the privilege of being in Cabinet will know that Ministers are required to consult with colleagues in Cabinet, except for the Minister for Finance who does not have this requirement even in the latest version of the Cabinet handbook. In theory therefore, where is the hegemony of the Department of Finance? I can only conclude, even when I look at Professor Fanning's work, that because the Treasury got away with it in former times, it was logical that the Department of Finance would get away with it after independence. The alternative, in Scandinavian terms, would be to make an allocation to a Department, to devolve a great deal of discretion, transparency and accountability, and link committees to it that would have the power of initiation, amendment, reform, blockage and so forth. However, we are not seriously considering this. Therefore, we come to the next part. I will quickly go through what I have distributed in a moment.

When I look at the reforms that are suggested, apart from those on which we have been invited to speak, I see them as technocratic. In a way, there is always a tension in political science between those of us who support the normative theory, which is the way politics should be, and those who follow what one might call the pragmatic rules that Bailey wrote a long time ago — how things get done. There is a collision between how things get done and how they ought to be. If we want to address the political disconnect in the population, we may in fact need to consider strategies of deepening democracy and political participation. I am thinking, for example, of the elections to parents' committees and so on in the United States, which are very much down on the ground. It may be at this level that we should deal with the problem. Otherwise, what is the point? We might well see, coming from the base, political developments that take as their starting point a devaluation of the political representation component. There are already very strong tendencies that devalue politics, for example, the notion of the political class. Very few media people will feel free ever to describe politics in terms of the right or the left. They like to say "the politicians", which is as evasive and cowardly as one might get. There is a problem with the current deep commitment to the notion that representative democracy itself is under attack. I believe it is.

I will quickly run through the headings I have given. When I began writing and teaching in political science, this was the way Professor Chubb approached it in his distinguished contribution. He described the features of the Irish political system as follows. He said that the characters of both the major parties were vertically integrated into class alliances. There is a lack of serious ideological differences between these parties; a comprehensive localism in national politics; a statistically tested extremely low degree of public confidence in the ability of ordinary citizens to collectively influence local or national governmental action; an absence of interest groups or public campaigns in national politics; and a dominance of national and local politics by the personal clientele of politicians. He saw it as something that was on its way to being modernised into something else. I reject that entirely. The modernisation model has no status in the intellectual work of contemporary political science. It had to do with the disposal of resources.

Professor Chubb also wrote a famous article called "Going about persecuting civil servants". That was his first article and it was his description of public representatives at the time. The thing is that everything has changed. I do not believe blocks of voters are the clientele of politicians. There has been widespread use of telephones and so forth. The people who have studied this — for example, Mark Bax in Tipperary — suggest that in the period in which Professor Chubb wrote, he probably had a basis for his suggestions. Paul Sacks wrote about the Donegal mafia. Peter Gibbin and I argued from an anthropological point of view. Something comes out of the work of these people, including Ellen Hazelkorn and Lee Komito. Valerie Kelly did some empirical work in 1987 on the procedures in my own office, and she found that political interventions did help, but only in specific circumstances, such as where the wrong information had been supplied or where the inquiry needed to be directed at the right source. In other words, it was not about pulling strings but rather clarifying the applications. One could say, therefore, that an increase in citizen capacity or in the State's dealings with citizens would help enormously.

What has come out of the other studies? There is much in the work of Komito. There are three phases to the political system. There is an early period in which there are resources in the State that one can affect, and there is evidence that this happened. There are only one or two cases in which a person who was not blind received a blind pension, for example. There are areas in which one could abuse the system, although they are few. One then moves on to where that is vaporising, where we have fictional sources. This is the notion of the person going up to Dublin. I recall a councillor saying to me about my dear colleague Bobby Molloy, "Bobby never came down from Dublin without something for Galway in his pocket." This was her view rather than being based on anything real. Then there is the last, contemporary phase — I have seen this in empirical studies — in which a person holds an enormous number of clinics or advice centres for the sake of keeping up his or her reputation.

Parliaments are weak all over Europe and are sinking in support, with the exception, curiously, of the European Parliament, which is receiving more support. If one is considering weak parliaments, it is probably due to the large number of economic decisions that are now, under globalised conditions, going outside parliament altogether. Then, parliaments have consciously ceded responsibility in a number of areas, so their areas of responsibility are shrinking. Finally, there is the arrival of the predominant market model of the economy, which values private rather than public intervention, namely, the role of the State.

I will finish where I began. If we take the British model of disengagement in terms of how it managed transitions, what it was dealing with was strong, complex societies and weak states. Professor Migdal has written well on this. In other words, the society can defeat the state. In the Irish case there was — Chubb was right about this — a deep distrust of the State. If I was revising my work in 2009 I would be influenced by the work of James C. Scott. I will provide all these references if the committee is dealing with it. There is an awful lot to peasant cunning. People, instead of being dominated by parliamentarians, are, quite cutely and in a cunning way, willing to play along as they did with the landlord in the old song about praising the landlord's daughter's beauty. There is such a notion as strategies of defence, which are all over the place in the anthropological literature about societies dealing with those who represent them.

I warn against the danger of piecemeal reform. The committee should consider improving the legislative process. I would have begun at that end and gone through Cabinet, Parliament, the public service, the local state — the notion, for example, of the patriarchal, hierarchical, inflexible absence of discretion in decision making in the public service is the source of many representations to parliamentarians. Finally, I will give one tiny piece of advice which applies in many cases. If there is a shrinking of democracy in Ireland and a disconnect between people and politics, it is important that those who at least have had the courage to stand for election should not beat themselves up for being the primary source of that. There are many sources.

We have representatives of the media present. There is not a tradition in Ireland — in fact, such a tradition has declined — of essays on politics. It exists in El País newspaper in Spain and in the Latin world, where there are regular discussions of political options. In many cases responsibility for the absence of ideological discussion, theoretical suggestion and political science, in the normative sense, is not the function of Deputies who, admittedly, are excluded from the legislative process by bad machinations. That position exists because the people who discuss and comment on politics have not raised their game.

I thank the Deputy for his illuminating and interesting contribution.

I am happy to provide the secretariat with the references to which I referred.

The secretariat will take the Deputy up on that offer and I am sure the people engaged in researching this issue will also be in touch him.

I invite questions on the review of the system and I am sure members will also wish to comment on it. Obviously various members will wish to make retorts, but I ask them to confine themselves to questions as much as possible. I call the Vice Chairman, Deputy Jim O'Keeffe.

We are fortunate in having had an elegant discussion at an intellectual and practical level on the issues we want to confront. We are lucky to have with us Professor Farrell, the new professor of politics at UCD, who has wide international experience on this issue which he brought to bear in his contribution. I have known Deputy Michael D. Higgins for many years, but I had not fully appreciated what a treasure we have in our midst. I appreciated his contribution.

I have two questions. One of the issues that attracted me to the broad discussion of our system is the under-representation of women in our Parliament. I would like the two representatives to comment further on such under-representation. Did I gather from Professor Farrell that he considers our system is as good as one could get from the point of view of encouraging representation by women? He might comment further on that point and on whether any changes, constitutional or otherwise, could remedy that deficiency in our system.

The second issue, which might be more appropriately addressed to Deputy Higgins, concerns the reference to committees and the weakening of the role of parliament. I have been a Member of this Parliament for a considerable time and I have seen here and in other countries a diminution of the role of parliament generally and an increase in the centralisation of power in the executive at national and European level. What are the views of the representatives on how we could strengthen our committee system, if it is felt, as I believe, that it would be one way we could strengthen the role of Parliament by it giving it an improved function as watchdog and a stronger role in scrutinising the work and decisions of the Executive and of many of the other bodies that have such an important role and influence in our economy and society?

We have heard two interesting contributions which would stimulate considerable thought and could give rise to considerable discussion with all members present.

Professor Farrell referred to the problems associated with clientelism and how it relates to the demand from constituents and he questioned whether it could be solved by institutional reform. I believe a large chunk of it can be. The other side of this issue is that it is from this process that the ideas come. These are the people the representatives serve. If one is not close to the people, one does not know what is happening. One might think one knows, but one does not have a sense of conviction about that. Such a sense of conviction should be built into one's thinking. There are many books and views on issues, but what is important is a representative's conviction about the needs of the people having regard to their circumstances. From my dealings with many representatives internationally, I have found that they are not in touch with the views of the people. The former are engaged in a process that is above that level and, consequently, many citizens are frustrated.

Professor Farrell asked if this issue can be solved by institutional reform. Much of it can but it is a continuing process. I set up the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS, which grew from the basis of next to nothing. I did that out of a sense of conviction on the basis of what I was asked to do. In setting it up I had to tie in with the local community welfare officer, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, the bank and the credit union to solve the problem posed. I asked myself why others, namely, some of the people employed to provide these services, were not doing this. That led to a conviction that this was a service we should develop and that is what we did. Other developments were established along the same lines. Considerable improvements have been made in the systems and in the way people are served by the public service, but this process will continue and much of the work that was involved for representatives has been removed.

Deputy Higgins is always full of ideas and has considerable practical experience. In regard to the two contributions, I am of the view that the Irish system of the single transferable vote and proportional representation is the most competitive and customer oriented electoral system in the world. That is my view, having seen it work here and elsewhere throughout the world and having been involved in politics from many years. As a representative, one must always be on one's toes. If one is not and is not in touch with the views of the people, one will not be elected on the next occasion. While it is convenient if one's party puts one on a list and one is placed in a certain position on it because of the number of degrees one has attained or for some other reason, that is a very different system. That is something we must keep in mind. It is part of the system. However, it is not greatly appreciated by the media but, in some ways, that is not surprising.

I agree with Deputy Higgins that the legislative process must be strengthened and supported. The power of the Department of Finance is strong as long as that is not done, but there is the issue of balance. This brings us back to the issue of the lack of support for Deputies and committees in doing that work, which is the subject of considerable criticism. That is quite scandalous and that position still applies today, although it has improved considerably in recent years. If we want a democracy that is vibrant, competitive, not only in business terms but in terms of social services, and that keeps abreast of developments on all levels, we must properly service those who represent the people. Whatever we come up with must come from that type of base.

Senator Boyle and Deputies Howlin and D'Arcy wish to contribute and I now call Senator Boyle.

I was quite taken with both contributions. I agree fully with what Deputy Higgins said about the need to change the culture underpinning the system as well as embarking on wholesale reform of the system. Part of the nature of clientelism is not so much what he referred to as peasant cuteness, which I presume is an anthropological term rather than a political one, but the expectation that anyone who is a representative is fair game for the voters at any time. In this respect, I refer to a meeting held in Cork recently. Cork County Council is badly handling a proposal to put cycle ways through the large town of Carrigaline on which a local residents group held a meeting. It was attended by four Members of Dáil Éireann, two Members of Seanad Éireann and six elected members of Cork County Council. The town has grown in recent years and it should have its own town council. Technically, another nine people in elected office could have been in attendance at that meeting. Some 25 residents were in attendance. This concerned an issue that should be dealt with at a local level, but the expectation is that everyone and anyone in elected office should respond to this issue and the competition exists between elected representatives. That is one of the problems of the multi-seat system. How to overcome that and maintain the proportionality that exists under the single transferable vote proportional representation, STVPR, system is one of the challenges we must examine.

I would like to ask Professor Farrell a few technical questions on foot of his contribution. I understand that the STVPR system has been introduced for local elections in Scotland. It seems, to some degree, to be growing in popularity. One of the problems with it, in terms of proportionality and that which we appear to have suffered from, is a tendency on the part of various boundary commissions to introduce a greater number of smaller seat constituencies. The number of three-seat constituencies is now far higher than previously in terms of the number of five-seat constituencies. In the past, we had nine-seat and 11-seat constituencies and may even once have had a 13-seat constituency. Obviously, the larger the constituency the better the proportionality.

On the options presented to us today, to what extent is an attempt made to mix and match particular systems? The German system, which appears most popular, operates a straight vote for single-seat constituencies, which is not particularly proportional. Has there been discussion in political science terms in regard to having an STV vote for a single-seat constituency? The Australian system, in terms of its Parliament, operates an alternate vote system, which is one other option. Is that system improved with an STV system?

Has the matter of the degree to which lists can be opened and closed, where the performance in individual constituencies determines whether a person would be significantly high on a list should his or her party receive a proportionate vote, been discussed in terms of ongoing research in this area? As in the four countries mentioned, it may be that it is not that our system is bad and others are better but that a combination of systems could make our system work better. I believe this is an issue which the committee needs to consider.

I thank Professor Farrell and Deputy Higgins for their fine contributions. I believe we need occasionally to talk about the structure of politics. We are often so engaged in the practice of politics we do not talk about its structure.

I would like to ask the same question which Professor Farrell said he reluctantly asked of the experts he had corralled, namely, is our current system fit for purpose? In terms of the answer presented, I believe the answer is that it is. The question I now pose to Professor Farrell and Deputy Higgins is whether there is a better system to meet the needs of a changed Ireland.

I would like to make an observation in regard Deputy Higgins's contribution. I strongly agree with him that we cannot take a piecemeal view of this. While I do not believe that the system will be put right by addressing only one part of it, equally I do not believe that legislative reform alone will do it. As regards having a much more powerful legislative committee system initiating and reshaping Bills, in my experience — I am here more than 20 years — there is not a huge preponderance of Deputies who want to spend an enormous amount of their time doing that. There must be a political value attached to it and one cannot obtain that unless one addresses the system. We all know of colleagues who will suggest we should look after the legislative matters while they mind the home turf. Deputy Higgins may recall a colleague who spoke often of the challenge of the strong curate. One needs to be careful about the home base. It is an issue.

I do not agree with much of the comment that Parliament has somehow diminished itself in the last while. My experience in the past 20 years has been that we are far more productive than we ever were. When I became a Member of the Dáil all Stages of all legislation were taken in the House, often for weeks on end. One Bill often occupied the time of the Dáil for a month. We can now deal with four Bills at the same time, namely, Second Stage of one Bill in the House while Committee Stage of up to three other Bills is taken in committee. That level of productivity and input, often including extraordinary debate — I and the Chairman had the good fortune of being members of the Select Committee on Justice, Equality and Law Reform — on complicated Bills, sometimes for weeks on end often gains little attention. The question that arises is how we get value for the real legislative work which we believe to be important. Everybody pays lip-service to all legislation having a value.

I have a final question for Professor Farrell and Deputy Higgins on a matter which came to mind during my time as Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government when trying to bring about reforms in local government. The famous purple book was produced by me at that time. How do we balance directly-elected representatives, namely, councillors, with representative groupings? This has happened at national level and most elected representatives resent the power of the representative sections, including trade unions and farmers who also have a validity. They too are an aspect of democratic action as they are elected within their own systems, namely, farmers elect leaders to speak on their behalf and trade unionists elect leaders to speak on their behalf. Do they not have a role to play and is part of our democracy not sharing that role as we try to structure it at local level, although I confess not that successfully? What we have done at national level with the partnership structure has impacted on the power of Parliament. The balance is certainly not one that I would accept. I would like to hear the witnesses' view of the directly-elected democratic structure and how it will blend with the representative democracy and whether it has a place.

The next speaker is Deputy Jimmy Devins who I welcome as a new member of the joint committee. Deputy Devins replaces Deputy Thomas Byrne. I take this opportunity to thank Deputy Byrne for his work as a member of the committee.

I thank the Chairman for his welcome. I am delighted to be here. I was a member of this committee during the last Dáil and found it one of the most interesting and productive committees in the House. I take this opportunity to thank Professor Farrell and Deputy Higgins for their contributions.

I believe there is a difficult task facing this committee. What is interesting is that while we are here as Deputies and Senators, we are also individuals, most of whom are members of a party and we represent the country. This will at times be a difficult task, depending on which hat we wear, in terms of the production of a final report. This is an appropriate time, given the huge challenges facing the country, for us to examine all our institutions in terms of whether they are fulfilling their mandates.

Deputy Higgins made an apt and appropriate comment in regard to the increasing role of Government vis-à-vis the diminishing role of Parliament. That is a reflection on the Members of Parliament be it in the Dáil or elsewhere because ultimately every Government exists with the will of the Parliament. Each parliamentarian has a vote and should he or she allow that government — I do not refer in this instance to the Irish Government — to usurp their authority then that is a direct reflection on them.

I have two brief questions for Professor Farrell. Today's meeting is an open session. While we all have a certain amount of knowledge of the electoral system, many members of the public do not have a clue about what happens in here. They simply cast their vote in the polling booth and that is it. I believe it would be helpful if Professor Farrell could furnish the committee, and it could make public, a brief summary of the different electoral systems throughout Europe or the world. It would also be helpful if Professor Farrell could explain what is meant by the term "closed" and "open" voter as set out in table 1.

On Professor Farrell's summary of the electoral experts as quoted in table 2, has a survey been undertaken of the general public's view of the operation of systems in other countries and which system they think is best?

I found both presentations interesting. I have long held the view that the PRSTV is not as transferable as it once was. My logic for this — I do not know the percentages — is that 18 out of 20 seats are filled on the first count. Given that so many votes go from one part of the political spectrum to the other for whatever reason, whether geographic or otherwise, transfers are less relevant now than heretofore. Will the delegates comment on that?

I have described our electoral arrangements as a bottom-up version of politics versus the list system which is a top-down model. There has been much debate as to which is better. A colleague of mine, an Oireachtas Member, told me that he attended a meeting at which a running mate gave what my colleague described as perhaps the best presentation, lasting some 25 minutes, he had ever heard on the health service. After the speaker sat down, the first question the chairman took from the audience was a query about who was responsible for removing silage wrap from farms. The reality is that politicians must prioritise according to what the electorate dictates. Another reality is that if there is no electoral benefit to us as professional politicians, any particular modification to the electoral system is unlikely to happen. Our currency is votes. If we do not have some mechanism to improve our vote, proposed changes are unlikely to obtain sufficient support.

I thank Professor Farrell and Deputy Higgins for their contributions. It is always an intellectual pleasure to listen to the latter. One of my particular focuses in the broader discussion of the electoral system is the challenge of improving the participation of women in politics. Table 1 indicates this participation is at 11.7%, the lowest under the various electoral systems examined. There is a social deficit inherent in an electoral system which returns so few women to the Oireachtas. That number declined following the last general election, and there was a similar decline following the recent elections to the European Parliament.

If we are talking about a disconnect from the public, we must pay particular attention to how this affects women. Women are breaking through some of the historic obstacles to their success in business, with a significantly higher proportion of female participation in business than in the Oireachtas. My colleagues will understand when I say it would not do to be a shrinking violet in parliamentary politics. It is an intimidating environment for anybody and the fact there are so few women makes it particularly so for the latter. It is a matter of serious concern to me that half of our society is not adequately represented in the Houses of Parliament. I am due to deliver a speech at the end of November at which one of my themes will be that the poor female representation in the Oireachtas is an indication of a faulty democracy. As a business person, I am firmly of the view that any policy or situation must be constantly reviewed and improved. The current electoral system may have been adequate for a simpler society but times are changing. Any organisation and any policy must be monitored on a continuous basis and nothing should be carved in stone. We must seek to identify improvements to the electoral system that will serve to improve female parliamentary representation.

Like Deputy Woods, I am from the school of conviction politicians. We are here to represent the people no matter how awkward they may be in their demands and so on. Our purpose as elected representatives is to serve the public. One of the problems with our political system is the competing demands placed on Ministers and Ministers of State. They must deal with an incredibly competitive system at constituency level at the same time as coping with the demands of office, keeping their eyes and ears on the electorate while getting on with the responsibilities of their ministerial portfolio. From an efficiency point of view, our over-competitive system makes it difficult for Ministers and Ministers of State to do their job effectively. Modern government is a complex job, with Ministers obliged to manage large Departments while also minding their constituencies. I am convinced that if people knew how physically, mentally and emotionally difficult the job of Minister is, they would want to change the system. I assume Ministers and Ministers of State are obliged to study their portfolios morning, noon and night. At the same time, they are competing against colleagues from their own and other parties within their constituencies.

I will conclude by reiterating my two main points. First, the representation of women in the Oireachtas is very poor. We all know men and women think differently. As a Senator, I have produced social oriented documents on such issues as child care, ageing, ageism and suicide. Women's minds are on different issues. Second, the complexity of modern government is in conflict with the over-competitive system of constituency politics. I do not know how Ministers and Ministers of State do it. Ministerial office is incredibly demanding and I am aware that many of my ministerial colleagues are workaholics. The public might not agree but it is the truth. I am passionately of the view that nothing should be carved in stone, whether Government policy, a particular institution or an electoral system. There must always be scope to review, evolve and innovate according to changing circumstances. There is a strong case for a change to our electoral system to reflect the realities of modern government.

I thank Professor Farrell and Deputy Higgins for their enlightening presentations. I have some questions regarding the electoral systems in other countries. I agree with Deputy D'Arcy that the priority for constituents is usually local issues. I have first-hand experience of this; if one is not willing to entertain local concerns, all the presentations in the world on national issues will be of little use when it comes to the next election. It is a question of the particular concerns of particular cohorts of constituents at a given time. Such concerns may change from day to day but they must always be addressed as they arise.

Under our current electoral system, aspiring politicians must endear themselves to the public by working their way up through the ranks of the local authority or by some other means. Under the list system, one is obliged to endear oneself to certain influential persons within one's party. This is hardly a superior arrangement. It is not acceptable that a small number of people who have influence through whatever mechanism and retain it over a long time should decide who has the opportunity to be elected to the Oireachtas and who is promoted to Cabinet. What are the delegates' views on how such issues are dealt with in other jurisdictions?

I am convinced our electoral system is as good as any in existence elsewhere. What is the delegates' view on an arrangement where, say, one Deputy would be elected per council ward? Instead of having three, four and five-seat constituencies for election to the Dáil, if the existing constituencies were divided into wards, similar to the structure of local government wards, would we achieve a better system? That would mean a change in the ratio of the electorate per TD. There is cross-party support in debates for getting every person involved in the democratic process. In the current debate on the National Asset Management Agency both Opposition parties are proposing it be debated in the House rather than by the Select Committee on Finance and the Public Service. I do not have a personal difficulty with that per se, but I see a conflict with the suggestion that all legislation should be debated in select committee where there is a more free debate that is not necessarily dictated by party influences——

Ignore the problem.

——when it suits us. All political parties are guilty, my own included. When it suits Members we adapt the system to meet our requirements. Are we flexible enough to do what Parliament wants and Parliament comes back to the majority on the day?

I am a Member who supported the single-seat constituency, similar to the system that operates in the United Kingdom. There are swings and roundabouts in politics but if we want to rid the system of political clientelism and clinics, we will have to adopt a system similar to the UK. Depending on the size of the constituency, four or five TDs must be on their toes. I read a recent profile of a very prominent former TD, who had spent 90% of his time on constituency work. This shocked me as he was an intellectual type and I did not think he would have had time for the ordinary Joe Soap who would be running to the clinic about a medical card, a pothole or some other problem. I think the single-seat constituency is the way forward, even though we shudder from taking that option. This option was put to a referendum on two occasions but failed on each occasion. It is time to look at this option again. I would support such a system.

I disagree with Deputy Howlin's point on debate in select committees. I am finding in recent years that the general public are coming to my clinics and telephoning me about measures that were enacted that I or they did not know about. When issues were debated in the House, one could see the progress of the debate in one's office and, knowing what elements of the Bill were relevant to one constituents, one could go down and make a contribution. Many Deputies, who are not members of a particular committee, do not attend the meetings of the select committee because, on occasion, it has happened that the Chairman will only allow members of the select committee to participate. I have reservations about the operation of the select committee in that respect because all legislation is relevant to every constituency. One often gets all-party agreement, where there is no division on highly controversial issues. That issue should be examined as well.

I thank all the members for their interesting comments and questions and for their interest in this subject.

I invite Professor Farrell to comment on the issues raised and on matters to which he wishes to respond.

Professor David Farrell

I may not have sufficient time to deal with all the points raised in the stimulating questions.

Professor Farrell does not have to address all the points, but will he address the points that are of particular interest and importance to the proceedings of the joint committee?

Professor David Farrell

I am happy to do that, but I would be very happy to respond to individual members should they wish to contact me afterwards. Members should feel free to get in touch with me.

May we feel free to use Professor Farrell as a resource person?

Professor David Farrell

Should Deputy Devins want it, I have a very good textbook on the different electoral systems.

I presume it is in the Oireachtas Library.

Professor David Farrell

I commend it to members. There is a great deal to get through but the Chairman will forgive me if I do not get to address all the points.

Deputy Jim O'Keeffe and Senator White raised the issue of the representation of women in parliament. I know the committee will be considering this issue on another day, so all I will say is that I do not think that the single transferable vote is as good as it gets in addressing the representation of women, it is quite the opposite. I would be happy to elaborate further but I will not delay on it now.

I will begin by nailing my colours to the mast and state where I stand normatively, which is not particularly unique in the area of electoral systems. Proportional representation is good, so I would not agree with Deputy Ned O'Keeffe's view that single-seat constituencies might be a possible resolution to the Irish system because one will go to an unproportional system by that very act and that will kill off any chance of the representation of smaller groups in society. It will also kill off any possibility of representation of women and minority groups.

If the question is, as Deputy Higgins put it, the issue of the disconnect, I have done presentations such as this in countries around the world — I did one in Israel at about the same time last year — it is a fact that politicians worldwide are concerned about the issue of connect with voters. The one thing one can say about the single transferable vote system — good and bad as it is in all sorts of ways — is that it is probably the closest system one is going to get to a good connect with the voters.

My second normative view, as expressed in table 2 at the end of my contribution, is that I have a preference for the electoral systems that are at the top end of the arrow, certain types of open list systems and the single transferable vote system.

Will Professor Farrell deal with the issues rather than the individual questions?

Professor David Farrell

A number of issues have been raised on whether the single transferable vote system is fit for purpose in modern society. As I was trying to say towards the end of my remarks, members have one possible solution which is to drop the single transferable vote system and go to an alternate vote, a list system or some other choice. I urge members not to do that. If the view is that there are elements of the single transferable vote that could be fixed, then when the deliberations turn to areas of possible fixing of the single transferable vote system, one might look again at the counting rules, by-elections and — this might raise a wry smile — computerised counting, because if done properly one might be able to fix certain things about the counting rules that are fixable. I will be happy to elaborate on that at a later time. Issues such as the alphabetised list of politicians which gives them a rank order on the ballot paper could be fixed if one had computer counting because one could randomise politicians on the ballot paper.

There are a number of features of the single transferable vote system that could be fixed, for example, the district magnitude and the number of seats in the constituency. Ireland has one of the lowest average district magnitudes of all the single transferable vote systems. One of the members referred to Scotland. The single transferable vote system is used right across Australia. There are jurisdictions in Australia where the district magnitude, the size of the constituency, compares favourably with the list system and the single transferable vote system operates perfectly well there. There is no particular reason that Ireland must keep a small district magnitude which does mean that proportionality, the overall aggregate proportionality of the electoral system, is not as good as it could be. Therefore, one could improve the representational groups in society if one increased the average size of the constituencies.

In response to Deputy Devins's question on what voters think, we tried to explore that. I have lived in Britain for the past 20 years and members may remember that when Tony Blair came to power in 1997, one of his manifesto proposals was reform of the British electoral system. At that stage, a number of us decided to try to see what voters on the streets thought about the single transferable vote system. One might as well be asking voters whether they prefer PC compatible computers or Apple Macs. It has just as much meaning to the average person on the street. That is the quandary when one tries to measure this in a quantitative survey. The solution is focus groups. We carried out some focus group work in the UK in the late 1990s where we brought groups of voters into a room, provided as objective a set of educational tools as possible to bring them up to speed on alternative electoral systems and then tested what they thought about the different systems that were available to them. It was quite revealing and the main conclusion we drew from the analysis was that at the start of the process when we asked the focus groups whether they liked the British electoral system, pretty much all of them did. At the end of the focus group discussions we asked the same question and pretty much all of them said they would prefer to change. There was no agreement as to what they should change to, which is the important point. They just agreed that there were better alternatives and they would like to explore that more.

In parts of Canada and British Colombia, in particular, citizens' assemblies have been carried out, to give the citizens of those provinces the possibility of designing their own electoral systems. That is an extremely fascinating process to observe. In the British Colombia case they came up with the single transferable vote as a solution and in the case of Ontario they came up with the German mixed member system. There is no definite outcome from that but what is clear is that the citizens change their opinions.

However, I shall finish at the point at which I ended my presentation, which is to say that if this committee was to come up with any recommendations as regards the Irish single transferable vote electoral system, I would be urging it strongly to think about fixes or improvements rather than a radical overhaul to a new system.

I shall be brief and I will just concentrate on the themes because I will have an opportunity to meet colleagues again. I very much agree with what Professor Farrell is saying as regards where one should begin. If asked how I might do this, I would begin with a legislative process. Let me fire out some quick comments as I go through it. I have always found it extraordinarily difficult to understand how slow the drafting of legislation is and how limited is the amount of expertise for the drafting of legislation in the Irish system. This, to some extent, is a legacy again of the Westminster model.

When the State was founded there were 29,000 civil servants who had been in the previous system and who moved into the Irish system. I believe the concept of political culture as it was used in Irish political science is not so valuable anymore. What is useful, however, is to use the world "culture" in terms of bureaucracy. There is no doubt whatsoever that most of the problems lie within the legislative process and in its bureaucratic tendency. I still do some academic work, but relatively little now. When I last looked at this I found that this was a problem which had actually been identified in European political science, namely, that Max Weber's iron cage and the cold nature of decision making that is turning up in one study after another within European political systems is responsible for the disconnect.

If one began by changing the electoral system, I suggest one would have begun in the wrong place. Moving back down through the question of the initiation and drafting of legislation and then its discussion there are very good reforms as regards the availability of services to Members of Parliament, both Dáil and Seanad, but there is another interesting side to it, namely, where the technology can capture the normative tendency in politics. For example, many people with different political views have come into politics which requires them to reflect and remember. If one has put all one's speeches onto one's computer recently and if somebody asks about something, one is inclined to say that one has said something on that recently. Therefore, much time is being spent on cutting and pasting instead of thinking.

When I came into politics first I had some very significant opponents, some of them with first class intellectual ability. I am thinking of the late Deputy John Maurice Kelly and people such as that. They regularly needed time to make their case about democracy, and a very valuable case it was. I recall the late Professor Kelly being very depressed about a version of politics in which people were continually attacking the State for benefit, and so forth. However, one needed time to do that. What happened was, and this will get me into some trouble, I suppose that, with the changes in the media, the arrival of press offices and the shortening and sharing of time, people tended to stand up for three to five minutes with repetitive meaningless statements, as for example, congratulating the Minister for the 15th time on what the civil servants had written for him or her. There is an absurdity to that.

If one wanted to do something really radical to restore Parliament, one might ask whether it was necessary for Ministers to travel all around the country manifesting themselves as making political announcements. It would be a good idea to start bringing the citizens from around the country into a central place where the Minister made the announcement where the decisions were made — in Parliament and its environs. These questions are being discussed and thought about in different political systems in various parts of the world. At my age I am entitled to say that the idea that Ministers are required to waste their time travelling around, probably drinking weak tea instead of hard drink in these straitened economic times, is absolutely absurd.

The other side of this relates to questions that were raised. There is no doubt that whereas there was a logic to ending the dual mandate, for example, between councillors, Deputies and Senators, this has actually shrunk democracy at local level by enhancing the powers of managers. City and county managers are far less open now to questioning by councillors than under the old system. This raises the issue of the balance between the central State and the local State.

In case I misrepresented Senator Boyle in my reference to strategies and peasant cuteness, in the literature this is referred to in James Scott's work as "matist" or "wisdom", so it is there. One of the things that is interesting which we did not discuss is what we would not want to think about. The case for the straight vote, for example, is usually made in terms of stability of government. There is no doubt whatever that we have had stability of government with the other system. The case for PR is usually made from a representativeness standpoint, but within each of these there are geographic bailiwicks. In a behavioural sense the studies in political geography show that while in fact a five-seat constituency is being represented, there is a division, geographically. I know the Chairman is under pressure, however, so we can come back to all of these things.

My suggestion is to take bureaucracy as the principal target, begin with legislative reform, work from the Cabinet down through the institutional structure, and most importantly, there is a need for a very strong view to the effect that political ideas matter. I entirely agree with Deputy Woods as regards a system where political representatives stop listening to people, because it is very important to do so. However, I want to offer one cautionary note as regards what I believe is emerging, namely, the idea that there could be a modified list so that some people might be elected directly for the constituencies with other people on a list. I could be wrong, but some of the evidence I have seen in political science suggests that those who come from the list seek to assure their future existence by becoming popular in constituencies. Equally, on the other side, those in constituencies perceive themselves as having an "underlabourer" role as regards the legislative process, and this does not necessarily increase involvement in the processing of legislation through the committees of the House.

I thank Professor Farrell for coming along and giving of his knowledge and expertise. We will surely be calling on him again. We thank him for offering himself as a resource to the joint committee. I thank Deputy Higgins for his tremendously interesting contribution. He completed the circle and finished where he started. I look forward to his attendance and contributions at future meetings.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.05 a.m. until 9.30 a.m on Wednesday, 7 October 2009.
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