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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION debate -
Wednesday, 3 Mar 2010

Electoral System Review: Discussion

I welcome the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy John Gormley, to this part of the committee hearings. The committee continues its hearings on the review of the electoral system and in the first part of today's meeting will consider with the Minister the proposed establishment of an independent electoral commission in Ireland. In the second part of the meeting the committee will consider the related matter of constituency boundary revision with Professor John Coakley, professor of politics in University College Dublin.

I welcome the Minister and his officials and thank them for attending. The matter we are discussing is of particular interest to us in the context of our ongoing review of the electoral system. The presentation is being circulated to members. I call on the Minister to begin.

I thank the Chairman and welcome the opportunity to address the committee. Perhaps I might talk a little at the end about electoral systems as that is a matter in which I take a personal interest.

The work of the committee is directly relevant to the electoral reform elements of our proposals for an electoral commission. I appreciate that although there has been some mention of the commission in the committee's deliberations it has not been an issue of concern in these discussions and, therefore, this is a good opportunity for me to outline our plans and hear members' views on the relevant aspects.

The 2007 programme for Government envisaged that an independent electoral commission would take responsibility for electoral administration and oversight, implement modern and efficient electoral practices and revise constituency boundaries. The commission would take charge of compiling a new national rolling electoral register, take over the functions of the Standards in Public Office Commission related to electoral spending and examine the issue of financing the political system. To assist in consideration of the issues involved, in 2008 I commissioned a report by an expert group from UCD. I published that preliminary study only 12 months ago. The response to the consultation was somewhat disappointing and may have been due to the very busy electoral year we had, with local and European elections, two Dáil by-elections and the Lisbon treaty referendum. While the formal closing date for written submissions has passed, I still welcome and will consider any views and observations which are put forward by this committee or other interested individuals and organisations.

The preliminary study prepared for me by the UCD group gives an overview of the current arrangements for electoral administration in Ireland and an examination of the position in other countries. It suggests options for, and conclusions on, an electoral commission in Ireland, including its membership, functions, funding and relationship with others involved in electoral policy and administration. It makes recommendations concerning approaches to the modernisation and consolidation of legislation in the context of the establishment of an electoral commission. The report also covers issues such as the registration of political parties, the electoral register, constituency revision, running elections and referenda, funding and research and awareness activities.

The key findings of the UCD report are that the proposed electoral commission should be responsible for maintaining the register of political parties and assume responsibility for the electoral register with a view to introducing a rolling, individual register, and that the functions currently carried out by the Constituency Commission for Dáil and European elections be transferred to the electoral commission. I understand the committee will consider the matter of constituency boundaries for Dáil Éireann with Professor John Coakley later this morning. I look forward to hearing the committee's views on his recommendations as he was part of the UCD team and the feedback of the committee will provide an important input to my further considerations. The study notes that current Irish arrangements for the administration of nominations, polling schemes, the polling process and the counting of votes have several distinct advantages. It recommends that the devolved character of the process is the key to its success and should not be tampered with. We could therefore, even with the establishment of an electoral commission, still have a situation whereby electoral administration is the responsibility of a number of bodies.

The report recommends that, pending the outcome of a review of the law relating to the regulation of party and election funding, a single body should combine the functions currently performed by the Standards in Public Office Commission and by the register of political parties, and that the final powers and functions of the electoral commission in relation to party and election funding should be determined by the Oireachtas following a review undertaken by the commission and the Oireachtas review of its recommendations in that respect.

The report recommends that an electoral commission be given the power to conduct and commission research. It notes that the electoral commission would be independent in the performance of its functions but that any such provision should not preclude an appropriate degree of accountability on the part of the electoral commission to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and to the Oireachtas. It recommends certain specific policy-making functions should be reserved to the Minister, for example fixing the date of polling, deciding whether to approve a specific form of electronic voting recommended by the commission or proposing changes to the electoral system. In those specific cases, the role of the commission would be to advise the Minister.

The report considered which ex officio membership would be most appropriate for an electoral commission and concluded it should comprise a chairperson who shall be a judge or a former judge of the Supreme Court or the High Court and ordinary members, including the Comptroller and Auditor General, the Ombudsman, the Clerk of Dáil Éireann and the Clerk of Seanad Éireann.

In the October 2009 renewed programme for Government we have added to the mix by further clarifying our intentions and ambitions for what an electoral commission would do. Taking an overview of the two programmes, what we are committed to can be set out in two parts, one being the reform of electoral administration and the other being electoral reform. On electoral administration, it is intended that the new electoral commission would take responsibility for electoral administration and oversight and implement modern efficient practices for the conduct of elections. It would become a standing Constituency Commission for the revision of constituency boundaries and decide the constituency boundaries. It would take charge of the compilation of a new national rolling electoral register, administer the voter registration process and run voter education programmes. It would assume the functions of the Standards in Public Office Commission in regard to electoral expenditure and would provide the new commission with enhanced powers of inspection.

On electoral reform it is intended that the new electoral commission would examine the issue of financing of the political system and recommend revised guidelines on the declaration of donations for political purposes. It would advise on mechanisms to increase the participation of women in political life, including the use of additional criteria for public funding to encourage more women and less well represented groups to participate. It would make recommendations on the feasibility of extending the franchise for the election of the President to the Irish abroad and make recommendations on the possibility of extending the franchise for local elections to those aged 16 or over, something to which I have referred in the past.

The new electoral commission would be invited to examine and make recommendations for changes to the electoral system for Dáil elections, including the number of Deputies and their means of election. It would be invited to outline new electoral systems for Seanad Éireann. It would advise on the basis for European elections to reflect the new realities of the role and influence of the European Parliament, including consideration of moving towards one national constituency and using the list system. It is also my intention to mandate the new electoral commission to set minimum standards for the taking and publication of political polls within the State to ensure fairness and accuracy.

The establishment of an independent electoral commission is not an insignificant move. New legislation will be required to establish it. Amending legislation will be required to transfer to the electoral commission a range of roles and responsibilities, including those assigned to the Standards in Public Office Commission in electoral law, the roles and responsibilities of the Constituency Commission and the roles and responsibilities of the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. This will require changes to more than 20 primary Acts and to the associated regulations.

The UCD study recommends an electoral commission should be established through the enactment of an electoral commission Bill which would amend and consolidate the law in this area, bringing together in one Act the law relating to referendums and elections to local authorities, Údarás na Gaeltachta, the European Parliament, Dáil Éireann, Seanad Éireann and the Office of President of Ireland. This will be a major task. We need to be mindful of the importance of effectiveness and value for money in delivering on structural and organisational change, such as the establishment of an electoral commission. It will not simply be a matter of pulling a few existing bodies together.

If an electoral commission is to achieve the objectives we have set out in the programme for Government, it will have to be adequately resourced and adequately supported by all stakeholders. While putting in place the necessary groundwork for the electoral administration remit of the electoral commission will take time, I do not want to see the electoral reform agenda delayed unnecessarily. For this reason I am considering establishing an electoral commission on a non-statutory basis to report on the electoral reform agenda set out in the renewed programme for Government. I would be very interested to hear the committee's views on this approach.

It is normal practice for those presenting to Oireachtas committees to take questions following their presentation. I will gladly do that. I want and need to hear the views of the committee, but before that I want to put some questions to its members. I would be glad to hear their response today or in the coming weeks. I would very much welcome the input of this committee to my considerations for the establishment of an independent electoral commission in Ireland with the electoral administration and electoral reform roles I have outlined. What are the views of the committee on the recommendations of the UCD report? What are the views of the committee on the proposed responsibilities of the electoral commission as set out in the programme for Government? What should be the membership of the commission? How independent should an electoral commission be? Should it make decisions or should it make recommendations on matters?

I thank the committee again for inviting me to speak before it. I wish to depart from my speech and speak about an issue which has been the focus of the attention of the committee, that is, electoral reform. With the indulgence of the committee, I would like to throw in my tuppence worth. I believe, as do all Deputies, that we have a system which lends itself to a particular type of politics. It is a type of politics which operates on the ground and engages with people, which is a good thing. On the other hand, there are occasions when I envy my colleagues in the German Green Party who find the concept alien. It is in Parliament to legislate. It has a system——

The Minister can address that point as well.

Perhaps that is a slight exaggeration. It has a system of direct elections which comprises one-seat constituencies and a list system. They have a 5% hurdle, which the committee would need to examine. It is a system that works. There is still that engagement. In a small country of this size we could usefully learn some lessons from them.

Part of an approach to changing the entire system must include local government. We need some form of proper regional government and to reduce the number of Dáil seats to about 100. Perhaps 50 of those could be directly elected and 50 by the list system. One of the disadvantages of the list system is that the party apparatchiks choose the list. I believe we could use PR-STV. That would mean it is fair and proportional and that there continues to be that engagement. It means also that people are not making a massive shift.

The question then is how would the list be chosen. It could be chosen on the basis of the highest number votes for individuals. In that way one is not getting away from the individual candidate or allowing the party apparatchiks to decide on the particular list. It is still the people who will decide on who gets into Dáil Éireann. That is the way forward and I hope the committee will consider this aspect. Unfortunately, because of the system in place, the Irish people would be reluctant to get rid of the current system, a point we all need to bear in mind. Perhaps with the half-way house that I am suggesting, they would be ready to embrace this change. As a result there would be a slimmed down and more effective Dáil but it must go hand in hand with changes at local government level. I suggest a form of regional government, which is outlined in the renewed programme for Government, and that will be part of the new White Paper which I will introduce. Those are my thoughts on the matter. I am happy to hear the views of the committee.

I thank the Minister. The recommendations of the UCD report and its views on the electoral commission are matters we will consider before our report is concluded. What is the timescale for the formation of this electoral commission and will it be during the term of this Government?

It will happen in the term of this Government. As the committee may be aware, that section of my Department is working very hard on the mayoralty legislation as well as a number of other initiatives, including the White Paper that I just mentioned, and we are dealing with the aftermath of the electronic voting system. The franchise section is slightly over-burdened but it has assured me it is on course to deal with this issue, after it has dealt with those matters.

I join with the Chairman in welcoming the Minister. It is important that we have some shared thoughts on all the matters set out. It strikes me that both the executive summary of the UCD report and the Minister's presentation is an agenda as opposed to a decision for change. It is an agenda that has been in the public domain for years. We probably need to move away from simply having an agenda for somebody else to make decisions to the point of making decisions.

In terms of the role of the electoral commission, the Minister said it is to implement efficient electoral practices. What does that mean? It is to include the functions of the Standards in Public Office Commission. A good deal of work went into the establishment of the commission in the first instance, including a very close analysis of how similar bodies worked elsewhere. Are there specific changes that the Minister considers are not captured by the current legislation or is it the intention to simply transfer the existing functions?

The Minister described the electoral register as a rolling individual register. What exactly does that mean? By way of observation, the ex officio members of the commission recommended, and the Minister did not demur from it in his presentation, that while they are listed, none has an important qualification that they actually stood for election. It is similar to a medical commission with all the ex officio people not required to have any medical experience. It seems odd that would be the case.

On the issue of votes for 16 year olds at local elections, the Minister may be aware that the head of the UK commission looked at that issue and was less than enthusiastic about the results of such a proposal. Has the Minister or his officials had an opportunity to examine it?

With regard to the Minister's regional government proposal — his off-script comments — most of us who look carefully at regional government in Ireland would be reluctant to have yet another administrative tier. We have good county level government because that is the normal focal point of most people, whether the GAA or otherwise. We have very poor regional synergies, which we need in terms of major issues such as waste management and so on. Is it better to co-operate with lower-tier counties rather than another super structure in what most people regard as an already over-governed country? The notion of town, county, regional and national government would be a tier too many for most people. Most people operate on a regional level with the ad hoc regional structures in place, basically they go with the county flag and are not interested in anything beyond the county.

My final point is what my former colleague, Michael Moynihan in Kerry used to call the strong curate issue. If one wants to delineate the work of councils from the work of parliament how does one stop the popular councillor constantly replacing the Deputy at every election?

I am pleased Deputy Howlin asked specific questions and I ask other members to take that as an example. As the Minister has a time deadline, I ask members to be as brief as possible.

I welcome the Minister and thank him for his presentation. I have a number of questions in respect of the membership of the commission. It retains the status quo of a High Court judge, the Clerk of the Seanad, Clerk of the Dáil, and a Department official. In the context of recent reviews it appears to be a mathematical exercise that Deputies are elected on the basis representing a given number of people. The last review breached county boundaries and in my constituency the town of Swords was divided into Dublin West and Dublin North. Is it the case the people with practical political experience such as a county manager, a former Taoiseach, those on the Council of State and those who know the system should be members of the commission? It is not a matter of getting four or five people into a room and deciding there must 25,000 people per Deputy, and in the event of a constituency not having the required population that part of another county is included or, in the event of the population exceeds that number that part of the constituency is removed? Does the Minister consider it appropriate that a person with political experience and knowledge of the geography of constituencies should be included, such as county managers or former Taoisigh?

On the proposals on the electoral commission, some of the decision making process will be retained by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I am not saying that is not a good idea——

Will the Deputy repeat that as I did not hear him?

Under the reform being considered by the Minister, some of the decision making process will still be retained by the Minister of the day, such as possible electronic voting and changes to the electoral system. Why does the Minister, on the one hand, recommend that an electoral commission should have responsibility for the recommendation process and, on the other, he will decide whether electronic voting will be introduced or the electoral system needs to be changed? Does he believe it should be one or the other? I am seeking the Minister's opinion; I am not saying that should not be the case.

In terms of the last electoral commission, does the Minister accept that breaching county boundaries, where part of the Kerry electoral area is transferred to the Limerick electoral area or vice versa——

I did not do that.

I know that. I am merely seeking the Minister's opinion as he has clearly given a great deal of the thought to the system. Does the Minister believe that transferring parts of the Meath electoral area to the Louth electoral area is a reasonable proposal?

I ask members to keep their telephones away from the microphones.

Along with other members I welcome the Minister. We are charged with carrying out a review of the electoral system. Other issues that have arisen in recent months are reform of the Dáil and Seanad, which I believe are antiquated; voting rights to those aged 16 years; local and regional government reform; and this proposed electoral commission and the drawing up of constituency boundaries. All of those issues are of major importance but time is of the essence in this area. When is it proposed that the White Paper will be published?

I thank the Minister for the presentation. All of the elements before us are ideas, some of which have been doing the rounds. At a previous meeting of this committee in Trinity College the issues of extending the electoral register for presidential, Seanad or other elections were raised. Moving the furniture around, however, does not solve any problems. For example, if responsibility for the electoral register, which currently lies with the local authorities, is transferred to an electoral committee it does not change anything. Every time we have an election problems arise such as polling cards in the names of deceased people being sent to homes and people getting multiple voting cards. On that one area, which is a fundamental problem in our system, I do not see any proposals as to how to address that. I refer to where there is no obligation on anyone to register or one cannot be registered without giving one's consent. We have a database but the system is flawed. It is not a question of who is responsible for the administration of it; it is the mechanism by which the electoral register is constantly updated. I do not see any specific proposals before us but are there any specific proposals from the Minister or his Department on that area that might be put in place before the next general election?

Also, the question of the PPS numbers.

I welcome the Minister. Apparently, we do not talk any more. I want to ask the Minister about his proposals on regional government. I presume that is in the context of reducing the size of the Dáil and a rationalisation of the current ad hoc arrangements, which do not have any accountability attached to them. Also, we have different ways of dividing regional systems of government in that the Garda the health system and the justice system have different boundaries. A form of regional government would rationalise that in some way.

The Minister did not refer to what is contained in the programme for Government regarding the proposal for European elections.

I mentioned that in my contribution.

That the commission would be dealing with European elections.

Yes. I said that.

A single constituency, with a list.

That is what I said.

My apologies. My question then is the extent to which there is a move towards a common European system for those elections. Is there something we should be doing through a commission to work towards or anticipate that?

On the votes for 16 year olds, Deputy Howlin pointed the Minister to the fact that the British Government commission would not encourage it. I would point out to him the view of the Austrian ambassador about the success of implementing it in Austria. That is something this committee will consider when examining recommendations.

I thank the Minister for his presentation. What he spoke about is all well and good but there are no firm commitments in regard to it. We are all aware the appalling system regarding our electoral register. At the time of the last general election there were 800,000 errors in the register of electors. In my own constituency, an entire townland was removed from the register. The Minister can correct me if I am wrong but his own Department does not appear to have a handle on that. For example, in a parliamentary question I tabled to the Minister before Christmas I asked the number of polling cards that were returned undelivered to the local authorities and no one could answer that straightforward question. What practical measures will be put in place to deal with what is currently an unmitigated mess?

On the administration side, the issue of county boundaries arises because what we have currently are not boundaries divided on a county basis but butchery across the country. We have seen it in the case of county structures being divided and it causes huge problems from the point of view of the public representatives representing those constituencies, my own constituency being one of them where Leitrim is divided. The position is the same in Limerick.

On the Minister's suggestion of a 50-50 list system, should we not consider expanding the size of our constituencies? The Minister made a recommendation on the local elections, namely, that we should get rid of three seat constituencies. Should we not consider expanding the size of the constituencies to help deal with some of the anomalies that have arisen in the past?

The Minister mentioned local government reform. I had a full head of hair — the Minister probably had one too — when local government reform was first mentioned but nothing has happened in that regard. Better Local Government has been a disaster but the Minister also ignored the issue of Dáil reform. In terms of dealing with the issue of constituency work of Deputies, if they have a more significant role in the Dáil and more power, surely there will be less time spent and focus on constituency work and the public will be more focused on their role in the Dáil.

When responding the Minister might elaborate on the German system in regard to rotation. We might consider a similar system here, which we could call "Jigs and Reels".

We will have a meeting on Dáil reform next Wednesday at 2 p.m. which the members of the sub-committee on Dáil reform committee will attend.

Would Deputy Naughten elaborate on his point regarding Deputies doing less constituency work? How would that work under his system?

Since I became a Member of this House, Opposition or backbench Deputies have less of a role regarding legislation. When the Minister was first elected to this House, for example, it was far easier to get an amendment accepted than it is today. It might be an issue at present because Ministers have been in office for so long that they are over-reliant on their officials. I do not know the reason. However, if Members of the Oireachtas had a greater role in the decision making process, the electorate would be more focused on the decisions they make in Parliament rather than seeing the Dáil as nothing more than a rubber stamp, as it does at present.

I agree with Deputy Howlin about the membership of the commission. It is the first thing that struck me. It is a case of picking the same people all the time. They are supposed to be independent, so independent they actually have never had experience at any stage. That must be examined and broadened somewhat.

There are many interesting proposals in the presentation, one of which is to reduce the number of seats in the Dáil to 100, with 50 filled from a list and 50 otherwise. I do not believe that will be acceptable, and the Minister probably realises that. Some people suggest a small list rather than the 50:50 approach but even that might be controversial. If there are 15 Ministers, 15 Ministers of State and a Ceann Comhairle out of the 100 seats, that is 31 people gone, which leaves 69 seats. Let us say there are 15 committees, which means there are 15 chairmen and 15 vice chairmen. That brings the total to 61. That leaves 39 Members, some of whom might not be on any committee. I cannot envisage the system functioning in a broad or democratic way.

The Minister also said that our system lends itself to a particular type of politics and offered Germany as a contrast. The "particular type" is a particularly democratic type. It might be a nuisance but it is very democratic. I would be careful about that because it would then become a type of expert arrangement for one's democracy and there would be a good deal of resistance to that. However, it is an interesting contribution and we will have to give it a great deal of thought.

Deputy Woods has strong opinions on this matter.

I like democracy. I have seen how it operates in Germany and elsewhere in the world. I have worked with German Ministers and Secretaries of State who are not elected. We should acknowledge what is good in what we have and build on and shape it.

We are also joined by Dr. Gerard Hogan, our legal adviser. He has been very helpful to us and I am delighted he is here. Perhaps he might comment on the questions and the Minister's contribution.

Dr. Gerard Hogan

A number of members commented on how the constituency boundaries are operating. It is possibly under-realised how much this is a consequence of court judgments interpreting Article 16, starting with the O'Donovan case in 1961 through to the Murphy case in 2007. The consequence is that the margin for arithmetic tolerance has been de facto reduced. Therefore, when constituency revision arises, under the Constitution at present the county boundaries are just lines on the map. They have no significance. Where the boundary commission is tasked with dividing new electoral boundaries and there is a tolerance of only approximately 2.5% — prior to the O'Donovan case in 1961 there was a tolerance of more than 15% and perhaps even 20% — the commission is simply concerned with the figures and the county boundaries are just lines on the map. That is one factor to bear in mind.

With regard to the Minister's comment about regional government, and I am not saying it is a good or bad thing, the difficulty to which attention must be drawn is the fact that in other countries such as Germany, the United States or Switzerland there are bigger areas with recognised powers and functions. Take the example of Switzerland. It has one and a half times the population of Ireland but the cantons have been in existence for a very long time with their own independent regional government. It is a federal or quasi-federal system. The difficulty with some system of regional government, as Deputy Howlin mentioned, is that our mental allegiances are either to the State or to the county and, to a lesser extent perhaps, to the province. However, as I have mentioned to the committee previously, one possibility in the context of Seanad reform, if we intend to keep a Seanad, would be to dislocate it from the present electoral cycle and have some system of direct elections perhaps organised specifically around counties. There could be one Senator per county, with special allowances for Dublin and Cork.

Dr. Gerard Hogan

That is the other question. In a small country such as Ireland, the difficulty is to find a defined role for the Seanad. One cannot have it replicating the Dáil but perhaps one could consider certain functions and powers that an independent or quasi-independent body should have. There is widespread acceptance that the electoral system and current role of the Seanad are unsatisfactory. It is the single biggest institution in the Constitution that has not worked over the last 70 years.

It is unfortunate that there was not time for one-on-one questions and dialogue on this matter but that is how these committees work. Perhaps the Minister will respond.

If I do not cover everything, I hope I will be able to get back later to Deputies and Senators about their specific questions. I agree with Dr. Hogan about the Seanad. There have been many reports but we are making progress now. I intend to bring a memorandum to Government shortly with particular reference to the university panels. It is a relatively small matter in the overall scheme of things but I have given a commitment that it will be reformed. Greater reform of the Seanad is required but no reform has taken place. Nothing has happened through all the time I have been a Member of the Oireachtas and before that.

Members will be addressing questions to Professor Coakley about constituency boundaries. There is a good chapter in his report about delimiting constituencies and how one could have fixed boundaries and reduce the number of Deputies. That is his view but I believe there is merit in it. Regional government has been raised by many of the members. Deputy Devins asked a simple question about the White Paper. One of the reasons we are not in a position to publish it now is that we are consulting with the Deputy's party. His parliamentary party must be involved in this and the Minister who previously had responsibility for the environment, Deputy Noel Dempsey, has taken an active interest in it because the reforms we are proposing are quite radical and politically sensitive. For that reason we must get it absolutely right. I hope it will be ready before the summer but I am sure Deputy Devins will be hearing more about it. A number of groups are being set up around the country to consult about it. Of course, when they hear about regional government and changes, councillors throughout the country begin to get the jitters and think we intend to abolish the councils.

The White Paper has been somewhat delayed because we must take cognisance of what the McCarthy report says about local government. We have received a number of other reports, including the taxation commission's recommendations for extending the revenue base of local government. To answer Deputy Naughten's question on local government reform, quite a lot has happened. We have had the Green Paper, and the White Paper is on the way. The Dublin mayoralty elections are at an advanced stage. For the first time, we have set up a Limerick committee dealing with the boundary issues there. We have already extended the boundary once and I have appointed Mr. Denis Brosnan. I hope that will set a template for further boundary changes concerning gateways, which are essential when talking about regional government. It is a view that will be disputed, but I believe that gateways and cities give life to a region. There are people who disagree with that viewpoint, but that is my firm conviction.

The Minister should talk to the GAA about that before he goes any further.

Yes, indeed, I have taken on board the points made by Deputy Howlin concerning jerseys and allegiances. It is interesting to note that these lines all over the place were drawn by the British. If we were to start with a blank page, would we go about inventing local government along those lines now? I doubt it very much. We are now approaching this in a new way and we must think differently. It is difficult, absolutely, but modern Ireland is a very different place.

Why change it just for the sake of doing so?

I am not changing it for the sake of changing it, I am changing it for the better.

The Dublin mayoralty election is a waste of time and money. The Minister is going to fund it for no reason.

Unfortunately, Deputy D'Arcy was not here to ask a question earlier. The Minister has the floor.

I am sorry, Chairman.

There will be a queue of Fine Gael candidates around the corner when it does come up. The Deputy's party will be contesting this election, even if he considers it a waste of time and money.

We contest all elections.

That is what political parties do.

It is what democracy is about.

Yes, but I can say that it certainly is not a waste of time. It is a very good investment. Once it is in place I doubt very much that the Opposition parties will undo it. If the Deputy's party is committed to the view that it is such a waste of time and money, will it undo all of that? I doubt if it will. Deputies have seen the heads of the legislation. More changes have occurred during this Administration's period in office concerning local government reform than previously, although doubt was cast on that.

That is all right but——

This is real reform, but the Deputy does not agree with it. That is the whole point. The Deputy does not agree with some of the changes I have been making. That is his viewpoint and he is absolutely entitled to it. There are also controversial issues involved. For example, how should local government be funded? I have put forward proposals on water meters. I do not know what the Deputy's party's position is on that. I would like to know. His party leader was asked about it and he did not have a position.

(Interruptions).

This committee has worked in a collegiate format and we have been trying to reduce or minimise party political squabbles.

The Chairman is right, but Deputy D'Arcy got his retaliation in first.

The Minister should restrain himself.

I am sorry about that.

No problem. I want to get back to the issues. We have to address the issue of regional governance. In terms of planning alone, we already have the regional authorities in place. They are not directly elected, but they are in place for the regional planning guidelines. We see the difficulties that can occur with planning. Sometimes, three planning authorities are trying to deal with a small area. That simply does not make sense to me. It is one of the reasons why we have to move in that direction.

I have spoken to the National Youth Council of Ireland about the question of 16 year olds having the vote. The council is in favour of that, but there are different views on the matter. The Austrians have been extremely enthusiastic and it seems to work. I have always believed that we should be getting more young people involved in politics. The youth sections of political parties are doing well. The more people we get involved at an early age the better. I am supportive of that proposal, but it ought to be done first and foremost at local level to see how it works there and what the participation rates would be. I have no doubt, however, that it would encourage greater participation by young people in the political process.

Does the Minister intend to introduce legislation on 16 year olds having the vote?

I will certainly look at it and, in the context of the White Paper, will make proposals on how it could be introduced. Following that, I think it would make sense. People should be aware that we are trying to introduce a lot of legislation in the Department. The mayoralty legislation is 200 pages long and is quite involved. It is a question of time as to where we can fit that legislation in.

I want to address some of the other questions. I have already addressed some of the issues that arose. The membership of the commission was raised by Deputy Howlin, as well as Deputy Woods and others, who suggested that we needed people with a certain political acumen.

No. I referred to electoral experience in dealing with an electoral system, which seems a bit clearer.

That is a valid point and something I could look at, but one must be careful. Who does one appoint and will those people be accused of political bias if they belong to a political party? One must be careful, particularly concerning electoral matters. One will always be accused, which is natural. If, for example, they are dealing with the sensitive issue of boundaries and a current or former member of a political party is on the commission, how does that person deal with that? If there is a contentious boundary, as there often is, does that person get the blame? I do not fix the boundaries; it is a matter for the boundary commission, which has done so in good faith. There has been no political interference whatsoever. We know what happened concerning previous Administrations and the sort of accusations that were made.

May I interject? The truth is that we all accept the independent boundaries by cross-party agreement, even when they are patently wrong.

That is not true, actually. I have people coming into the House saying this is a disgrace.

They have never been voted down. They have always been voted through——

——even when the Minister — it happened in my time in Cabinet — knew that it was wrong. Perhaps we need a two-tier system whereby, if there is a proposal and all-party consensus, we can adjust it at the margins.

Neither the Dáil nor the Seanad has the right to vote it down. That was my criticism. As regards the last boundary commission, both Houses said it was wrong for reasons A, B and C, but the Oireachtas did not have the right to change it. That is the issue I want to raise with the Minister.

We are going to have a discussion with Professor Coakley on constituency boundaries, so I ask members of the committee to hold off on that debate until then. Does the Minister have other matters to deal with?

I must wrap this up shortly because I am 15 minutes late for my next appointment.

What about the electoral register?

Yes, this is an important point. There is, and has been for years, a great deal of discontent about that matter. The rolling electoral register, as proposed in the UCD document, would ensure that it would be updated regularly. It would be professionalised and people would have the ability to make changes on an ongoing basis. There would then be the potential to incorporate other references across the board for identification purposes. The Chairman mentioned the PPS number, which will require further consultation. The whole idea behind the electoral commission is that it will professionalise this operation. That is the whole purpose of it.

Senator Boyle mentioned the European elections and there is a case to be made there for a single constituency. Deputy Naughten raised the idea of having larger constituencies. I have no difficulty with that but changing to directly elected for some constituencies, 50:50 as I put it, is a better option. If that cannot work, to get greater proportionality, one should have larger constituencies.

Deputy Woods mentioned that if there were 100 Members in the Dáil, one could not have the same number of Ministers, junior Ministers and committees. Obviously, one would have to slim down proportionately.

We would not be involved internationally. We depend on being everywhere internationally and if we are not there, we will not be in the game. If exports were not as good as they are — I know indigenous firms have problems at the moment — we would be in really serious trouble. We must have that number of Ministers who will represent us and they must have junior Ministers.

The committees are now having a better effect than they have had over the years. They are also better serviced than they have been over the years. We are really beginning to get into things, and somebody else raised that issue. We will need people for committees.

This is a small country and that is why people talk about 100 Members. I think there are 635 Members of Parliament in Britain, so it could reduce the number. However, if we start to reduce the number, we will reach a level at which we will not be effective. That is what I would be afraid of. I am thinking about Ireland in the future.

I cannot really answer Deputy Naughten's question on the amendments, that is, that one finds one cannot get amendments accepted but that one could years ago. I do not have an answer to that. It is depends on the Minister. If Members table an amendment on Committee Stage, I might accept it on Report Stage. However, that varies from Minister to Minister. It is deeply frustrating if one puts much work into and scrutinises legislation and one comes forward with meaningful amendments which would enhance the legislation but they are simply cast aside. That is not the way to do business and we need a more inclusive system. I certainly agree with that point.

The Minister mentioned that the White Paper is due possibly in early to mid-June. Obviously, he will learn from the discussion today that this committee has very strong feelings about certain issues and we would like to have an input into the White Paper. When would be the latest point at which our deliberations might arrive on the Minister's desk? Is there a possibility that he might come back to us before June to hear what we have to say?

I would very much welcome any input from the committee on this because, as I said, the matters we are discussing are quite sensitive and we genuinely want to get it right. We do not want a situation when the White Paper appears where people will ask, "How did they manage to think of this or draw this particular line?"

I would like input from this committee. I am not saying one will reach a consensus because it is a very difficult issue on which to reach consensus. As soon as the committee has anything to input, I would very much welcome it.

We will liaise with the Minister's office.

Should we talk to Deputy Cuffe as well?

I thank the Minster.

We will now consider the drawing of constituency boundaries for Dáil elections. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Professor John Coakley, professor of politics in University College Dublin. We are very grateful to Professor Coakley for the time he is giving us and we thank him for the presentation and his written submission which have been circulated to members.

Before commencing I must inform him that members of the committee have absolute privilege but that same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it.

Professor John Coakley

I thank the Chairman and members for inviting me and giving me an opportunity to make this presentation. I covered two areas in my written submission. One was constituency boundary revision and the other related to the political implications of change in the electoral formula. At the committee's request, I will address only the first of these two areas.

I propose to make three points at some length. The first relates to problems with the current mechanism for constituency boundary revision. I will look at what I describe as the normal mechanism under proportional representation as practised in continental Europe. I will then look at the practical implications of a switch to the European mechanism in this country. I have outlined these arguments at much greater length in a set of articles in Administration in 2007 and 2008.

The first point relates to problems in the current system. To varying degrees, it seems that this system arguably alienates the public. It creates unfamiliar and unstable boundaries that breach those of recognised territorial units. Deputies already made this point earlier. There is some evidence that this causes significant electoral alienation. Colleagues, like Adrian Kavanagh in NUI, Maynooth, have made this point.

From the perspective of politicians, a certain element of irritation must creep in. The unpredictability of the future shape of constituencies, for example, is something that cannot be pleasing to those contesting elections. It arguably wastes the time of officials, it is an inefficient use of resources and it is expensive. I will try to justify this point in a moment.

The number of constituencies created since 1922 is enormous. The number is 348 and by my computation, we only needed 35 over that period of time. We could have started off with 25 constituencies in 1922. A few amendments could have been made since then resulting in ten additional constituencies.

These constituency boundaries are largely unfamiliar to voters and even to Deputies. The use of micro-level units, such as electoral divisions and even townlands and in urban areas imaginary geometric lines, must bewilder many people. Traditional boundaries are commonly breached. The case of Leitrim is the most recently celebrated one. These breaches are arguably often unnecessary. By way of illustration of this, I mention the case of Leitrim. Why not group it permanently with Sligo and have a constituency of Leitrim-Sligo or Sligo-Leitrim? Similar arguments could be made in respect of other counties.

We get extraordinarily long descriptions of constituency boundaries. The annexes to electoral Acts typically extend to something in the region of 3,000 words. Again, by my computation, 350 words would be sufficient if larger territorial units were used.

There has been only one extraordinarily stable constituency created in 1920 by the Government of Ireland Act, which was then King's County-Queen's County and is now Laois-Offaly. This is the only constituency that had unaltered boundaries over a very long period of time. However, it has fallen victim to the Electoral (Amendment) Act 2009 which has made a small change.

If one looks at the new definition of this constituency, it consists of the County of Laois and the County of Offaly, except for ten named electoral divisions which are being transferred to Tipperary North. If we look at these ten electoral divisions, even Deputies from that part of the country would have great difficulty recognising their borders. There is very good reason for this. They were last used for administrative purposes in the local elections of June 1914 — for election to the board of guardians of Roscrea Poor Law Union and to Roscrea No. 2 Rural District Council. These bodies are not recognised now. They are still used by the CSO for purposes of statistical reporting but they are otherwise unfamiliar to the public, and I believe, to Deputies.

How are boundaries drawn elsewhere in countries that use proportional representation? I emphasise the comparison I am making is not with the British system or the American system in which the committee has seen the number of constituencies where different issues arise, but with the continental European system. The typical approach is that territorial boundaries are fixed, they correspond with administrative units — for example, with the Swiss cantons and with the provinces in Belgium, except that one province, the central province of Brabant, is divided — and these administrative units remain stable over the decades. The target size of the chamber is defined and using a simple mathematical formula, seats are allocated periodically between these constituencies on the basis of population after each census. Over time, some boundary changes may be made to avoid excessively large or excessively small constituencies, but these changes are very infrequent and, typically, the new constituencies are instantly recognisable.

This is applied in all countries of continental Europe using proportional representation. There are some special cases such as Germany with its two-tiered system, Italy where there is no prior allocation of seats to the regions which have a function partly as constituencies, or the Netherlands where there is a single 150 member constituency covering the entire country. Obviously, in the case of single-member districts the system cannot work and boundaries must be continually changed to ensure that the principle of electoral equality is maintained.

My third general point has to do with the possible application of this system to Ireland. We immediately encounter a difficulty here, that is, that the single transferable vote system of proportional representation imposes a practical upper limit on constituency size. We cannot have 75 member or 150 member constituencies under this system because it is unrealistic to invite voters to rank the large number of candidates that would then result.

However, in the past in this State we have had relatively large constituencies. For example, in the Senate election of 1925 there were 19 vacancies, 76 candidates and 67 counts. Unfortunately, the count went on over three weeks. It discredited this system, perhaps unfairly, at the time. However, there have been other instances of very large constituencies: Galway, from 1923 to 1935, and several other constituencies up to 1947. In the Northern Ireland Assembly, from time to time there are relatively large constituency sizes.

In showing how this system might be applied in Ireland, I assumed a minimum of constituencies with three members and a maximum size of nine to show what this would look like. Essentially, the counties would become constituencies with certain exceptions. Some small counties would be merged involving familiar enough combinations such as Leitrim-Sligo, Cavan-Monaghan and Carlow-Kilkenny. Cork and Dublin would have to be divided. Under a list system, it would not be necessary to divide them but were we to impose an upper limit of nine Deputies per constituency, these counties would have to be divided. The 1923 Act came close to having this kind of pattern. It stuck closely to the existing county boundaries. Then one would need a decision on the overall size of the Dáil, whether it is to have 166 Deputies or some other number. Then seats would be allocated in a simple mathematical process. Typically, in other countries an official the equivalent to the director of the CSO would make this allocation.

I worked out carefully the result of this and the committee will find it in an appendix to my written submission where there are four tables where I look at what the outcome would have been had this system been in operation since the 1920s. With stable boundaries certain counties where population was dropping would see a fall in their number of Deputies. For example, Mayo would drop from nine to five over this long period — it would now be a five-seater having started off as a nine-seater.

Constituencies near Dublin would see an increase. Kildare would have risen from three to seven seats, and both Meath and Wicklow would have risen in seat numbers. Some would have remained stable and there would have been very rare changes in constituency boundaries. Dublin would have required four changes, in 1936, 1961, 1979 and 1986, because of the rapid process of population expansion there. Roscommon would have fallen eventually below the threshold for being a three-member constituency and I suggest in my simulation that this would be linked to Sligo-Leitrim following the 1971 census.

An assessment of this system shows it would be relatively stable, predictable and efficient. It would result in some large constituencies, and a nine-member, an eight-member or even a seven-member constituency would cause certain political cultural problems because since 1947 we have been accustomed to the notion of five-seat constituencies as the maximum size.

However, it would ensure greater compatibility with the Constitution. It is easy to forget that the Constitution stipulates, not only the single-transferable vote but proportional representation. With an average constituency size of four members where the electoral threshold is 20%, one could argue that a party with 15% of the vote which is spread nationwide would end up without any seats and that this is not proportional representation. It might result in slightly larger deviations from the present Deputy-population ratio, possibly resulting in conflict with the Constitution. This would depend on how the Constitution is to be interpreted.

I summarise in a slide in my presentation the kind of spread that would have existed under the system I suggest here over time — a range or deviation of 17%, which is quite high, in 1991 to 29% in 1971. This refers to the spread between the lowest and the highest Deputy-population ratio. The current system has ranged from 8% in 1961 — the lowest ever — to 28% in 1947. Allocation would be much quicker than under the current system. It might require a constitutional amendment; this is unclear.

In my presentation, I summarised the effects of this system on the Deputy-population ratio. The red bars refer to the system that I have simulated in my submission to the committee and one will note that the deviation from the average can sometimes be quite high. However, one may compare this with the existing electoral Acts, which are shaded in green, and the presentation shows the 1923 Electoral Act based on the 1911 census; the 1935 Electoral Act based on the 1926 census, and so on, where the deviations were often quite high too.

I remind the committee that I have double-checked the underlined portion of this text because the implications of this seem to be devastating, and I will read it carefully. Of eight constituency commissions since 1979, not one saw its recommendations translated into legally defined constituencies which were used at a general election before the next census intervened. Admittedly, in 1980 and in 1998, the results of the new census were not available, but a population census had taken place. What I mean by this is that if we look at the first electoral commission, reported in 1980, the results of which were based on the 1979 census and enacted in legislation in 1980, the first election under its terms took place in June 1981, but a new census had already taken place, in April 1981. The two elections of 1982 both took place under 1979 census data, not under 1981 census data. This pattern has been repeated ever since.

Where is the fault in that? There must be a balance between practical numbers and people being familiar with where they will vote.

Professor John Coakley

The lapse does not need to be so long so that the gap between the date of the publication of preliminary census results and the allocation of seats need not be as great as it is at present. It is very large because of the meticulous care with which constituency commissions must go through this process.

Here is a man speaking who does not have to serve a constituency. People must be given some scope to familiarise themselves with what will be the new position if the boundaries are to change. It cannot be done on the basis of a census conducted three months before.

Professor John Coakley

I am suggesting the boundaries should not change.

That is the general thesis.

Professor John Coakley

Yes. It seems the case for moving to the system that is normal under proportional representation is very strong, with or without constitutional change. Such change may be necessary. The argument for doing so would be irresistible under the new system. There would be no point, under a list system, in retaining the current system. I thank the Chairman and members for listening to my presentation.

I thank Professor Coakley for explaining his interesting point of view so well.

There are two matters of concern to me. Under Professor Coakley's fixed-boundary proposal, there would be a range of constituencies with between three and nine seats. In reality, those representing minority parties would have much less chance of being elected in a three-seater than they would in a nine-seater. The chances of a member of the Green Party or some smaller party being elected would be entirely determined by geography. The differentiation now is between three and five-seat constituencies. A system comprising three to nine-seat constituencies would place smaller parties at an acute disadvantage.

The second issue to which I wish to refer is a practical one, of which working politicians are seized. Mayo is a large constituency. However, a nine-seat constituency would be extremely difficult to serve as a Member of Parliament. In addition, there would be a great deal of duplication if nine Deputies were all to work on the same important local issue.

Professor John Coakley

The Deputy's first point relates to the spread between three and nine Deputies per constituency. I do not see any difficulty in this regard. As he pointed out, the current range is from three to five seats. In the past, the range was three to nine.

Professor John Coakley

In parliaments throughout continental Europe the spread can be much greater than this.

Is that a top-up?

Professor John Coakley

In some countries provision is made for a top-up.

However, Professor Coakley is proposing it without a top-up.

Professor John Coakley

Yes.

In such circumstances, representatives of small parties would be at a huge disadvantage if seeking election in a three-seat constituency. The position would be different in a nine-seat constituency.

Professor John Coakley

As is the case at present. There is an easy answer in this regard, namely, not to have three seats as the minimum. Why not, for example, increase the minimum size to five?

Is that what Professor Coakley is proposing?

Professor John Coakley

No, I am merely providing an example of the way in which it could be done. The limits I have set run from three to nine seats. However, these could be varied and could run from five seats to seven. This could make matters difficult, however, because the upper limit would be too small. It could, therefore, be five seats to nine or six to nine.

However, the populations of the counties would have to fit in with it.

Professor John Coakley

Counties would be combined, where necessary.

The Deputy's second point relates to the implications of nine-seat constituencies. In the case of proportional representation, 50-seat constituencies are common.

I am merely providing the practical example of what is now the case.

Professor John Coakley

If it is the case that people are anxious to move away from the notion of Deputies having an excessive burden of work, this burden does not increase as one moves from a three-seat to a nine-seat constituency.

Professor Coakley — a man who has never sought election — should try that one out.

The point is that the burden would increase. The population base for a nine-seat constituency would probably be over 250,000. This would increase intra-party rivalry. If three counties were combined for electoral purposes, the supporters of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, the Labour Party, etc., would expect the Deputies from their parties to attend campaign events. Professor Coakley's proposal would increase rather than reduce Deputies' constituency workloads.

Professor John Coakley

What I am suggesting is simply a variant of the existing system. It would have the effect of increasing overall constituency size. There are always trade-offs in circumstances of this nature. The trade-off in this case would be that we would end up with much more stable boundaries. We would, therefore, solve the Leitrim problem. That problem would be solved by having small segments of one county included with another.

It is, unfortunately, a problem for those who live in that county. Should there be an impact on the remainder of the country——

Professor John Coakley

No, the Leitrim problem applies——

A number of other members are offering and I wish to facilitate them at this stage. Senator Boyle will be next to contribute and will be followed by Deputies Kennedy, Naughten and D'Arcy. Deputy Woods who has seniority in this matter can intervene whenever he wishes.

The thesis of fixed boundaries has an attraction, if only in the context of voter identity. The current system changes too quickly. In Cork city the natural boundary is the River Lee, although this does depend on the branch of the river chosen. When I was elected to represent Cork South Central, I was living in Cork North Central. This was despite the fact that my home was located approximately three quarters of a mile south of the river. The way we parcel areas and reconfigure constituencies has not helped and has probably been one of the factors behind lower voter turnout. I refer in this regard to the uncertainty among voters in areas that have been moved between constituencies.

Another variable that enters the equation is the ratio between population and the number of elected members which the system allows in the defined geographical area. If the latter is too large, it is difficult for people to represent those who live there.

Another factor that gives rise to difficulty is the variation between three and nine-seat constituencies. I accept that Professor Coakley is arguing against it. The only other country that uses the PR-STV system is Malta. One of the better variants in that system is that all the constituencies in Malta are the same size. That is what is lacking in our system. In the past, the former constituency of Dublin County was, I believe, an 11-seater and that of Donegal a nine-seater. There have, therefore, been large constituencies.

My preference would be that boundaries, if they were to be defined, be linked to the population ratio and a defined geographical area. In addition, constituencies should be the same size. If there is a variation, that is where the inconsistency enters the equation.

The preliminary census figures often provide an accurate indication of what will happen. In the context of my constituency, I am concerned about Swords town, not just the county boundary being divided. In the light of current population figures, Dublin West would be ripe to be converted to a four-seat constituency without the necessity of transferring a segment of Dublin North into it. Would it be possible to use preliminary census figures as the basis for establishing constituencies for the next election? It is usually the case that outdated statistics are used in respect of electoral constituencies. That proved to be the case with regard to Dublin West.

I do not know if Professor Coakley was privy to our conversation with the Minister on the membership of the boundary commission, in which a non-professional politician is not involved. Does the professor have views on how we might change the position in this regard?

People with administrative experience — as well as former politicians — could also be involved with the commission. Professor Coakley states the unpredictability irritates politicians. All of the politicians present are elected representatives. Our experience is that the unpredictability irritates voters. There are major examples in that regard such as the position relating to counties Sligo and Leitrim. In addition, little pieces of constituencies in Dublin are forever being chopped and changed. Such a piece might only constitute 3,000 votes. However, the people involved become extremely frustrated because they must change the location at which they vote and also because they can no longer vote for the individual who previously represented them. Did Professor Coakley examine the more micro side of it? That is the side that affects our circumstances. I am inclined to agree with people who say we need at least four-seat constituencies to provide good representation opportunities to all parties.

There are good arguments for the normal system to be applied.

Professor Coakley's presentation has been very interesting. The shift in boundaries is more of an issue in the Dublin constituencies and my two colleagues here would be more conscious of that. There have been shifts in boundaries in Cork also. Speaking from my experience, since I entered the House in 1997, I have dealt with three separate health boards, three separate tourism bodies, five local authorities, while representing three counties. It is a difficult situation when there is so much change. Our boundary has changed again for the next election. If the next election is based on the current adopted boundary report, we will see dramatic changes — greater changes than in the past 30 or 40 years. As I mentioned earlier, constituencies have been literally butchered and county boundaries have been completely ignored.

There is an argument for Professor Coakley's proposal on the basis that if we accept it we should also reform all of the institutions of the State along the same lines, so that our health authorities, tourism authorities and regional administration for local government fall within the same boundaries. The argument made with regard to Connacht east as a constituency is interesting. I would not favour that personally, but there is logic in the argument because it would be an ideal five-seat constituency which would be preferable to the current division of County Leitrim. This is something the committee will have to examine, particularly in the context of some of the other submissions that have been made and the suggestion I made earlier about increasing the size of constituencies. There are practical difficulties with doing this and once established, how easy would it be to make the necessary changes to put regional structures on the same basis?

The Minister seemed to indicate earlier that he was considering revising boundaries for local authority elections on the basis of the spatial strategy, which would ignore county boundaries. If we were to put that structure in place, could we continue to have a county structure for Dáil elections or would we end up with an unmitigated disaster and great confusion for the electorate?

Deputy Howlin raised the issue earlier of the "jersey" and the county. It is not so many years since the interprovincial Railway Cup finals on St. Patrick's Day were nearly as important as the All-Ireland finals. In rugby we also see people wear the Munster, Connacht, Ulster or Leinster jerseys. The fact the jersey can change implies we could see a similar effect with regard to constituencies and that a larger constituency would be acceptable in time.

Professor John Coakley

To deal with Senator Boyle's point, if we want to have constituencies of the same size, such as four or five-member constituencies, and we also want to have defined, stable geographical areas, something must give. We can have one or the other or some kind of compromise between the two, but we cannot have both. Either we must go for constituencies of the same size and continually change their boundaries, or we go for fixed constituencies and vary the number of Deputies per constituency.

With regard to the use of census data, Deputy Kennedy suggested that the preliminary census data was fairly close to the final data. It is not "fairly" close, but "very" close to the final data. I compared preliminary census data with final census data. Preliminary data was used on one occasion in constituency boundary allocation. I suggest the preliminary data should be used, because on the date it is published it provides a significantly more accurate description of the distribution of the population than the final report does. The final report is an historically more correct document. It reports what the population was on the date of the census, but by the time it has appeared — normally 15 months later — the population will have moved on. I suggest, therefore, there is a strong case for using preliminary rather than final data.

On the point made by Deputy Woods, the changing of boundaries undoubtedly irritates and annoys individuals. I come from County Mayo and when I was growing up people still remembered the loss of Ballaghadereen in 1898; it was moved to County Roscommon. It was felt this was a great injustice to the people of Mayo. County boundaries matter to people, as do provincial boundaries. There are times when they must be sacrificed, but often the sacrifice is unnecessary. Nevertheless, if a Deputy suspects — in areas like Sligo, Leitrim and Roscommon they must suspect — that the boundary will change again in a future election, this demotivates the Deputy in servicing the constituents he or she may lose in a future election. From a Deputy's point of view, there is an interest in stability, all other things being equal.

Deputy Naughten raised the idea of rationalising all the boundaries. This makes a lot of sense. Why should different systems of regional administration have different boundaries, for example, local government, the health services and Dáil constituency boundaries? There would be practical difficulties with any kind of new system. However, the system I propose presents fewer practical difficulties than the current system. It is much more straightforward and the system follows the logic pursued generally in continental Europe. It may pose certain constitutional difficulties, but it is straightforward and simple.

A question was raised about the representation of politicians on former constituency boundary commissions. There may be a case for this. What has probably happened — if we look at the process over time — is that the notion of involvement by politicians got a bad name, particularly following the Act of 1959, which was held to be unconstitutional and the Acts of 1961, 1969 and 1974, which were extremely controversial and wasted significant Dáil time. I calculated the 1974 Act took about 80 hours of Dáil time. This helped to discredit the process of involvement by politicians and, specifically, the Minister in this process. Perhaps there has been a move to the opposite extreme, to altogether excluding politicians or ex-politicians. They may be a case for representation.

I hope I have dealt with all the queries.

Yes, I thank Professor Coakley.

As a footnote, while we gained Ballaghadereen, we lost Ballinasloe and Athlone.

The meeting with the sub-committee on Dáil reform will take place next Wednesday in the early afternoon rather than 9.30 a.m., due to the unavailability of the Chief Whip prior to the Order of Business.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.10 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 10 March 2010.
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