The next item on our agenda concerns fire services in Bray, County Wicklow.
Bray Fire Services: Discussion.
I realise it is somewhat unusual for a Minister of State to be present when a delegation is making a presentation but with the permission of Chairman, the members and the delegation, I would like to stay to hear it. Obviously, I will not take part in this section of the meeting but as a courtesy to the people from Bray, who I have met previously, I would like to hear the presentation first-hand.
That is agreed. There are two aspects to our discussion. We will meet representatives of the Bray campaign and then the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Killeen, who has responsibility for the fire services. Members will recall the tragic deaths in Bray last year of two part-time firefighters while attending a fire. On my behalf and that of the committee, I formally extend our sympathy to the families of Brian Murray and Mark O'Shaughnessy on the tragic events, of which everyone in the country is aware.
Since then the people of Bray have started a campaign for a full-time fire service and some of the group are with us to make a presentation on the matter. I understand we are joined by Hazel O'Brien, Mary Murray, Loman O'Brien and Gerry Walshe who are all very welcome. Eamon O'Shaughnessy, Joanne Murray, Darren Murray, Jackie Kelleher and others are in the Gallery.
We will invite the group to make a presentation which will be followed by a discussion involving members of the committee and some Deputies from County Wicklow who are not members of the committee but who wish to attend because of their special interest in the topic, which I appreciate. Following that, we will invite the Minister of State with responsibility for fire service to address the meeting after which there will be a question and answer sessions involving the Minister of State and committee members.
Before we begin, I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that members of the committee have privilege when speaking but this parliamentary privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are advised of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
Ms Hazel O’Brien
I will begin by introducing everybody. I am the girlfriend of Mark O'Shaughnessy, one of the firemen killed in Bray in September. I am accompanied by Mary Murray, the wife of Brian Murray, the other firemen killed in September, by Loman O'Brien, a retired station officer at Bray fire station, and by Gerry Walshe, a retired firefighter at Bray fire station.
I will speak briefly about the political side of things and what gains the campaign has made over the past few months. Mary Murray will take up other aspects of that. Loman O'Brien and Gerry Walshe will talk about their area of expertise, namely, the fire service and the shortcomings they see in it.
Last October the Labour Party tabled a Private Members' motion in the Dáil on the subject of the Bray disaster. The motion called for the establishment of a national fire authority, the provision of a full-time fire service in areas of high population and an independent inquiry into the deaths of Mark and Brian. The motion was amended by the Government to the extent that it bore no resemblance to the original text and the two main provisions were deleted. In the end, it consisted of a series of condolences. I have received condolences from people across the world. If the Government thinks offering me a few more in place of real action is satisfactory, it is sorely mistaken.
I take issue with a number of points raised by the Minister of State, Deputy Killeen, during the debate on the motion in order to show how the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and those with responsibility for the fire service are making a mockery of our emergency services. The Minister of State indicated that "The Department's fire services capital programme is designed to put in place the infrastructure, including stations and fire appliances, to enable firefighters to do a good job". A few weeks ago in Bray the station's second appliance, a truck that dates back to 1985, had to be replaced because one of the ladders fell off while the vehicle was being driven down the road. It could no longer be used and was replaced with another truck dating from 1985.
During the debate to which I refer the Minister of State also said "we have a modern communications system". Why then are the firemen's alerters which beep to alert them when called to a fire unreliable? Why are there are certain parts of Bray in which they will not work? For example, Mark could not go to the cinema in Bray because his alerter would not work within the building, nor could he walk beyond a certain point on the seafront because it would cease to operate. On one occasion while out walking with me he saw his colleagues driving to a fire on Bray Head. When he telephoned one of them to see what was going on, he was told that they were wondering why he had not shown up for the call. His alerter had not gone off.
I have heard many times the types of speeches made in response to our arguments by the Minister of State, Deputy Killeen, the Minister, Deputy Gormley, and even the county manager. They are carbon copies of each other and fail to address the real issues. Last October I sat through a speech in which the Minister of State discussed smoke alarms for far longer than was necessary. With respect, I hope I will not have to do the same again today. I accept that those who deliver such speeches are trying to get across the idea that they are pumping money into the provision and maintenance of equipment. I hope the examples I have provided illustrate that this is obviously not working as well as they would have members believe. The speeches try to show that fire prevention is the key to saving lives, hence the Minister of State's enthusiasm for smoke alarms. Fire prevention is crucial but, regardless of the effectiveness of one's fire prevention programme, it is clear fires will still occur.
The Minister of State referred on previous occasions to major emergency management and the advances made in this regard. How can a major emergency plan be acted upon if there are only five firefighters available and if the individuals concerned are not even waiting at the station?
During the debate on the motion last October the Minister, Deputy Gormley, proudly informed us that, under the fire services change programme, there was a new template in respect of fire services safety statements. Why has Bray fire service not had any safety statement for 13 years? Why, four months after this was discovered, is the station still in operation? The Health and Safety Authority has the power to shut down the station but has not yet done so. This proves that the Minister is woefully out of touch with what is happening. What use is a template for safety statements when a station does not obtain one over a 13-year period?
Since the debate last October, the families met the Minister and Minister of State and representatives of Wicklow County Council. We were disappointed following our meeting with the Minister. After great effort on our part, we finally received further correspondence from him to the effect that he would not be making any decisions until after the investigations concluded. Part of what we discussed with him was the possibility of finally establishing the national fire authority, which is six years overdue. Why he needs to wait until the investigations into the tragedy are concluded before reaching a decision on a national fire authority is beyond me.
We have called for the establishment of a national fire authority because there are no national standards. An authority could possibly create such standards. I am mystified as to what could come from the investigations into the Bray disaster that would help the Minister in this regard, with the exception of hammering home the message that a lack of standards and coherency results in the loss of life. The Government approved report on the fire services made it its key recommendation six years ago. However, the Government continues to run away from the issue. Some 94% of firefighters who voted on this issue on the National Retained Firefighters Association website agree the authority should be established. The only people I have encountered who are opposed to the idea are Deputies in government.
The Minister of State and the Minister love to inform us about their new risk-based approach to emergency cover. Cover is determined on the basis of risk. This is a fairly basic and logical idea. Why is this concept not being applied in Bray? The primary European route from Belfast to Rosslare runs adjacent to Bray. This road, the N11, is one of the busiest commuter routes in the country. Statistics have shown it to be the second most dangerous road in the country. This seems like a major risk. What happens if the fire brigade is obliged to respond to a major incident on the N11? For a start, firefighters would be massively delayed in getting to the station to attend at an incident because any such incident on the N11 results in huge traffic jams in the town.
Bray is one of the main centres for nursing home care in the country. A major incident in a nursing home is a huge risk, as proved only recently when gardaí and firefighters attending such an incident were hospitalised following it. According to the Bray Town Council website, Bray town and its extensive hinterland have a population of 35,000. The fire service is obliged to provide cover for the entire area. Bray is home to numerous industrial parks and large factories, including those owned by a number of pharmaceutical companies. It is the third largest town in Ireland. I could discuss this matter at length but do not know how many risks I need to highlight before the Minister of State's risk-based approach will finally be applied to Bray.
There are no national criteria regarding when an area should have a full-time service. As stated, this is a major problem. People, therefore, base their decisions on various criteria such as risk, population and the number of calls attended. It was stated in the Dáil that the number of calls necessary for a full-time service was in the region of 1,000 per year. This is yet another statement which is untrue. In Drogheda and Dundalk, both of which have a full-time fire service, in the region of 600 to 800 calls are received each year. A system of call vetting has consistently kept Bray fire brigade's call attendance at a level far lower than it should be. Is it not peculiar that the fire service in towns such as Drogheda and Dundalk which have populations similar to that of Bray is attending 600 to 800 calls per year, while according to the figures presented by Bray's chief fire officer in the feasibility report he published last year, the fire brigade in Bray attends only 280 or so calls? This massive discrepancy cannot be wholly explained by good fire prevention. No fire prevention programme is that good. Since taking responsibility for the control room away from Bray with the arrival of the Dublin CAMP system, the brigade's call outs have risen substantially. Fewer calls to attend mean less money to pay and fewer arguments for a full-time service - another matter in respect of which money is the key.
There are other discrepancies in the study, one of which is the claim that there are 15 firefighters - a full complement - stationed at Bray. This is not true because there are only four to seven firefighters at Bray station, some of whom are on long-term sick leave.
It is no surprise that, six years after publication, the key recommendation in the Farrell Grant Sparks report has not been implemented. This was the only recommendation in respect of which the provision of a great deal of money would have been required. A national fire authority was recommended as the "optimum means of achieving coherent national leadership and development for the Fire Safety and Fire Services regime". A unified structure to deliver national guidelines and criteria would be for the best. Perhaps one unified body would be prepared to examine the level of risk in Bray and apply a risk-based approach.
The Fire Services Act 1981 states it is the responsibility of local authorities to establish and maintain fire brigades. I do not believe the system which obtains in Bray could be described as maintaining anything. There is not even a health and safety statement for the town, despite the fact that those in authority are supposed to be responsible for the health and safety of people living in the town.
In January the families involved, ex-firefighters and union representatives from Ireland and the United Kingdom met the five Deputies for County Wicklow. Together we drafted a statement calling for an independent inquiry into the deaths of Mark and Brian and emergency fire cover for the town as a result of its substandard service. This statement was signed by all who attended, including the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Roche, and Deputies Behan, Timmins, Doyle and McManus. What else do the Minister of State, Deputy Killeen, and the Minister, Deputy Gormley, need before they will accept that the fire service in Bray is operating in dangerous conditions and, as with other services, is in need of a major overhaul? Government Deputies are of the view that the situation in Bray is untenable. Are their colleagues going to ignore them as well as ourselves?
I wish to conclude by reading a section of one of the many e-mails received by our campaign from a concerned resident from Bray who felt compelled to offer us her support. She inquired as to whose interests were "best being served by continuing on with what has proved to be an outdated and underdeveloped mode of fire fighting, which has proven to be detrimental to the very lives of the brave men and women who risk all to keep us safe?"
I thank Ms O'Brien. Ms Murray will now make her contribution.
Ms Mary Murray
Brian Murray, my husband, was killed on 26 September 2007. He had been sub-station officer for approximately seven of the ten years he had served in Bray. During his time working there he witnessed the discrepancies at Bray fire station. He brought a number of matters to the attention of the chief fire officer, Mr. Dunphy, but action was not taken in respect of them because no one seemed to care. Call vetting was going on at that time and everybody knew this. The people in the station knew it, Wicklow County Council knew it. If Brian were here he would tell the committee that this situation contributed to many deaths in Bray and probably also to loss of property there. I still believe that call vetting went on the morning Brian and Mark were killed.
What is meant by call vetting?
Ms Mary Murray
Call vetting is not like a call back system whereby a caller dials 999 and is telephoned in return to ensure that the call is not a hoax. Call vetting is where the caller is told to wait for a few minutes and then to call back, perhaps in half an hour if the situation is growing worse. If that was a house fire that had been reported, people would be dead because along with that delay there is the delay in setting off the alerts so that firefighters can be despatched when they come from their homes or workplaces.
That system was used for years in Bray and this was admitted by Mr. Brian Doyle, the director of services in Wicklow County Council. He specifically stated that call vetting had worked well and had gone on in Bray for more than 30 years. At a meeting in Wicklow County Council in December, the county manager, Mr. Eddie Sheehy, stood up in front of several politicians and said that call vetting had worked very well in Bray.
In 2005 Brian took his crew out on a day of protest over call vetting. Nobody cared and nobody listened. Brian's main concern was the overall structure. I am sure that it would also have been the concern of Loman and Gerry when they were working in the station. Stress problems were caused to firefighters even before they left the house. The moment the alert went off stress set in, because of traffic, worry about the number who would turn up and whether they might make it, worry because of dealing with young people who had recently joined the fire service.
Familiarisation was something Brian really wanted and had asked for on numerous occasions. I know that another member of the fire service, who is absent through sickness at the moment, requested this practice just as much. By familiarisation I mean detailed knowledge of nursing homes, factories, apartment blocks, schools. The retained firefighters acting in Bray at the moment do not have familiarisation with any of these buildings, nor with disused buildings, of which there are several in Bray. Firemen will be lost. If there are young people in such buildings, drinking or whatever else they might do, they will die.
In Bray there is a complement of about eight firefighters. Two of these are drivers. Three have been in the service for only one year and are not experienced enough to enter a blazing building, be it a house or a factory, if persons are reported to be within. When the Minister, Deputy Gormley came to Bray to meet the firefighters, Mr. Jim Dunphy told him that Bray had a complement of 15 personnel. When he met the firefighters and asked how they were getting on now that they had 15 people, they told him this was not the case. They gave him the correct figure of eight. Mr. Dunphy had counted in the cleaning staff and the office staff.
Why do we need so many fire chiefs in the south of Ireland when in Northern Ireland there is one chief. Why do we need so many senior assistant chief fire officers with all that money going out on wages? Most of the money designated for Wicklow County Council is going on high wages. The firefighters' money is next to nothing. They offer a full-time commitment to the people of Bray and they are not being looked after. Nor have they been looked after since the day of that fire. They were given one hour of counselling.
I accept the sympathy offered by everybody here but that is not why I am here. I am here because I want an independent inquiry into the death of Brian and Mark.
I ask Ms Murray to repeat what she said about the counselling. What were the firefighters offered?
Ms Mary Murray
They were given one hour of counselling. The men who were at the scene on the morning that Brian and Mark were killed, who took the bodies from the building, got one hour of counselling. They were back on duty a day after the funeral. That is appalling. Dublin fire department asked to assist and offered their services. Wicklow refused because they felt that if the Dublin firefighters came in, they would never get them out. If the house of any committee member was burning would he or she care what colour appliance turned up at the door? Members would not care where it came from.
An independent enquiry must be put in place because Wicklow County Council, as the employer, cannot investigate itself. Those people know their shortcomings and they know that I know what these are. They know that I will not let them sweep any dirt under the carpet. It would be so simple if we walked away from it all and said nothing. It is impossible to have an investigation focused on that building on that day without taking account of everything else that happened. It was like a domino effect. It started off long ago and it stopped on 26 September. When Brian and Mark were killed, that was the end of the road for Bray Fire Station. How could the Health and Safety Authority allow a fire station that is so important to the public to operate for 13 years without a fire certificate? A building site operating in those circumstances would be closed down. I do not know why that fire station is still allowed to operate.
I have approached the chief there, Mr. Jim Dunphy, on many occasions. He is a completely obnoxious man.
He is not here to defend himself. I am allowing latitude but he should not be insulted.
Ms Mary Murray
I know he is not here but I had to say that.
In fairness to the man, he is not here to defend himself.
Ms Mary Murray
He has treated my family very badly in recent days.
Is it understood what I am saying? People are not here.
Ms Mary Murray
I understand. I am here today, and I know that Hazel will back me on this, to ask for an independent inquiry. We cannot have Wicklow County Council investigating itself. We need an independent inquiry made up of people, not from this country, not from England but from Europe, who will ascertain where the discrepancies are, and establish where the trouble lay, what happened, and the reasons two men died. On the morning of 26 September, a duty officer in a room made a decision to send a one-pump turnout, which is a single appliance, to a factory fire. There were five men on board. One of those men was only ten months on that brigade so he could not enter the building. There was a sub-officer, a station officer and Mark, a firefighter. Options were seriously limited. When they got into trouble and when everything happened, the man who had only been in the fire brigade for ten months was obliged to go inside searching for bodies.
Bray has 35,000 people but Bray Fire Brigade does not service Bray alone. It goes out as far as Glencree. North Wicklow has 160,000 people. We cannot have Greystones backing up Bray and Wicklow backing up somewhere else. If a critical incident broke out there would be nothing there to cover it. There is no plan. For years Brian pleaded for day-time manning on its own, or for night-time manning. Bray has hours of heavy traffic which builds up particularly in the evenings, so even if there was day-time manning it would be something. As Loman will report, if there is a call to a house fire with persons reported inside, perhaps children, the firefighters will still have to sit in traffic to get to the station to get ready to go to that fire. The firefighter cannot speed or go through a red light. When the alert sounds, the options are seriously limited. On arrival at the station, it is not clear how many will turn up as somebody may not have been alerted.
On joining the fire brigade a firefighter is trained as part of a team of six on an appliance. For years they have been forced to turn out with a minimum of three. That must be addressed by Wicklow County Council and I want the council to answer those questions.
Mr. Loman O’Brien
I am the ex-station officer of Bray fire service. The recent fire tragedy in Bray highlights the need for a full-time service for Bray and north Wicklow. It also highlights the need for a national fire authority with national standards, as recommended in the Farrell Grant Sparks report. Why is this?
I started with Bray fire service in 1983 and retired 15 years later in 1998. In 1983 the fire service had 11 firefighters plus a sub-officer and a station officer. That was a complement of 13 men. Response or turnout times of six to seven minutes were acceptable. In the past 25 years the town population has grown from 19,000 to 35,000, not counting the number of foreign nationals. In the catchment area stretching to Glencree there are two more towns Enniskerry and Kilmacanogue, where the population has also nearly doubled.
Over 25 years, the risks have increased. There are new housing estates and industrial estates. There are multi-storey buildings such as hotels and apartments. There are nursing homes; Bray is the centre of nursing homes on the east coast of Ireland. There is also the N11 with thousands of cars passing just outside the town daily.
Yet the only service that has not grown but has deteriorated is Bray fire service. Manning levels are lower now than in 1983; 25 years on there are between eight and nine staff.
Response times are longer now. During the day response times average 12 minutes, which is unacceptable. I can expand on this if necessary, but it is mainly due to traffic congestion and traffic lights. Bray is a built-up area and it is nearly impossible during the daytime for firefighters to access the station. In counties bordering Wicklow the number of calls has risen but in Wicklow it has fallen. However, since CAMP has come in and the watch room has closed in Bray, the number of calls has suddenly risen.
Can Mr. O'Brien explain what CAMP means?
Mr. Loman O’Brien
CAMP stands for "computer-aided mobilisation project". Calls go to a central headquarters and are then dispatched.
Where is that located?
Mr. Loman O’Brien
Tara Street.
I am sorry for cutting across, it is so that we understand everything.
Mr. Loman O’Brien
If there are questions, cut in.
We will take questions afterwards.
Mr. Loman O’Brien
In counties bordering Wicklow the number of calls has risen but in Wicklow it has fallen. However, since the watch room in Bray has closed and CAMP has taken over, the number of calls has risen. This raises concerns about call vetting.
No matter what kind of logic is applied there is something dreadfully amiss, that 25 years on Bray fire service is in a condition worse than ever. It is more vulnerable now after losing two firefighters. In all Government services there is PMDS - performance management development system. One element of this system is what is known as key performance indicators to show how well a service is functioning and fulfilling its role. Here is a real key performance indicator for Wicklow Fire Service: two firefighters dead. One was Mr. Mark O'Shaughnessy, a young man of 25 with his whole life before him; the other, Mr. Brian Murray, a father of 15 children and a young man at 47. If a fire service cannot protect its own people what chance has the town and its people? The town and area has out-grown the present fire service. Something needs to be done now. Thank you.
That concludes the opening presentation so I will open the discussion to members of the committee. The Deputies from Wicklow may have a special interest.
I welcome the delegates, some of whom I met last September when the Labour Party put through its motion on private members time. There were three aspects to that motion. First, to establish a national fire authority; second, to put in place a full-time fire service in areas of high population and third, to put in place an independent inquiry into what happened in Bray. Sadly nothing has happened since then.
The delegation is right to come before the committee this evening and feel anger. One outcome of the mooted inquiry should be the implementation of the Farrell Grant Sparks report. That report should be implemented for many reasons, whatever about the local issues of what happened in Bray.
The three previous Ministers for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, along with the current Minister, have had that report on their desk. The first two Ministers praised the content of that report. For some reason the third Minister, from the previous Government, sent the report sideways. No one knows where that report is now.
The response of the Minister, Deputy Gormley, to the Labour Party motion was that he was keeping an open mind on this matter. There is only a limited time for which one can keep an open mind; eventually one must take action. It was the Labour Party's position then as now that the three pillars of that motion are necessary. The Labour Party supports the delegation's call for an independent inquiry. There are 34 local authorities in Ireland. Each has its own fire service and operates to different standards and call-out mechanisms. Even those with similar call-out mechanisms are issued with a different standard of paging equipment. If we operated a police force in the way we operate the fire services here there would be a revolution. There would be crime and bedlam everywhere. Considering the dangers that men and women of the retained fire services face every day on our behalf, it is unacceptable that several months after this tragedy there has been no progress.
I welcome the content of the presentation. As somebody who represents the people of Bray, I pay tribute, first of all, to two brave men who served our community and lost their lives. We are very proud of our fire service and the people who work in it. The fact that so many people turned out in the streets of Bray to protest over what happened and seek improvements was a great tribute to the two men and of the fire service. What has been outlined is a description of a system that simply cannot work. Mr. Loman O'Brien has made the point that the town has outgrown the service. Whatever about the past, it is simply inadequate for the present and for the future. I welcome the fact that the Minister of State has stayed on here. However, I must express my disappointment, as when this terrible tragedy occurred and we debated the issue in the Dáil, I had hoped there would be an appropriate response from the Government. That did not come and since then more and more evidence has emerged, essentially because those closest to the two men have stayed loyal to their memory, kept up a campaign and given us the evidence needed to build the case for a full-time service and for a national fire authority, so that other communities can also be well-served.
We were invited to a meeting organised by the families. I do not believe I have ever attended a meeting where there was such a degree of consensus right across the board. The trade unions, North and South, were represented. There were representatives from the fire service, the community and the families present, as well as Members of the Oireachtas, and in one voice we all sought an independent inquiry. That was unusual, and I appreciate that Government Deputies were there and signed their names to that call. It shows just how serious this issue is.
We all understand money has to be found if a full-time service is to be resourced. It seems to me, however, that the first step must be an independent inquiry. To be fair to the county council, the idea that an authority can investigate itself is ridiculous. It is not even fair to the people within the authority. It makes no sense and such a proposal should not have been initiated. The responsibility lies with the Minister of State, Deputy Killeen, to set about establishing the independent inquiry. Do the members of the deputation envisage an independent inquiry as the first step towards reaching the goals they have outlined?
Ms Mary Murray
I most certainly do. From an independent inquiry will come a national fire authority - and from that a full-time service for Bray. An independent inquiry is an imperative. Everything must be brought into the open. One cannot keep matters locked up in the hope they will never be disclosed. What happens if two more fire fighters are killed today, tomorrow or the next day? Will we still sit here, in a year's time, saying the same thing? If we get an independent inquiry, then a national fire authority can be enabled to police matters. From that, the people of Bray should get the service they deserve. Perhaps my colleagues here agree. Otherwise, matters will just continue to go from bad to worse. It will be 22 weeks tomorrow since the tragedy, and nothing has been done. In 22 weeks from now, nothing will have been done, either. The fire fighters have been very lucky in Bray, but that will not continue forever. That is my concern, as well as to bring matters into the open so people can appreciate how much stress and trouble former fire fighters such as Mr. Loman O'Brien and Mr. Gerry Walsh had to cope with, in doing what had to be done. That must all come out and it cannot be kept secret any longer.
This is 2008. We cannot pretend this did not happen. It did, and an independent inquiry will move matters on. Such a body must come, say, from Europe, but at any rate it must be totally independent. We, the families, can help as regards agreement on the terms of reference. We will not be able to tell the independent body what to do, but we need to know what is going on. The Health and Safety Authority, HSA, has not been very helpful. In today's article the HSA says there will be two files. A week ago it was to be one joint file, between the Garda and the HSA. That worries me, somewhat, because the Garda has done a brilliant job and should be commended for what it does. The HSA worries me, somewhat, and I believe it works hand in hand with Wicklow County Council.
We need an independent inquiry so badly. This is the one chance we have before we get to speak to the Taoiseach, on 6 March - and I am asking all the Members of the Oireachtas to please give us the independent inquiry we need so badly.
I join the Chairman and other members of the committee in welcoming the deputation. I welcome in particular the fact that this committee has facilitated the deputation and an in-depth discussion of all the circumstances surrounding the terrible events that took place in Bray, last September. As somebody who has served as a councillor for 23 years in the Bray area, I can attest the whole question of fire cover. Fire tragedy is something that, unfortunately, we have had to face on several occasions in the past. The greatest irony of all is that we have a huge fire station building in one part of Bray, very close to a council housing estate, where there have been some serious fires in which several people have lost their lives, including children. On St. Stephen's Day 1989, almost an entire family was wiped out in a fire - within two minutes' walk of that fire station.
Bray people have always been conscious that while we have a building we do not have the full fire service we need and definitely deserve. I had no difficulty in signing the letter to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, referred to by the deputation, calling for an independent full open inquiry into all the circumstances - not just the fire, but into the events that led to it, and the structural situation that has evolved in Wicklow County Council and the fire service generally.
I pay tribute to the Minister of State, Deputy Killeen, who has come here today. He did not necessarily have to be here for this part of the debate. He has met the families already, and it is a tribute to him that he is willing to listen and take on board again the points that have been made. The Minister of State knows my views on this quite well, because I have expressed them to him on more than one occasion.
It is essential that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and his Department facilitate a full independent inquiry into all the circumstances surrounding the fire. I have said this on more than one occasion and written to the Minister, accordingly. I am disappointed that request is not being facilitated. Senior officials of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government are in the public gallery. I cannot understand what the difficulty is within the Department towards facilitating such an independent inquiry. I have serious concerns about the situation within the fire service in County Wicklow, and particularly in the Bray area, given that after the fire several men were not available for work. The Greystones retained fire brigade had been serving the Bray area, as well as Greystones, for several months, particularly in the critical period around Christmas, and thank God there was not a major incident in that time.
Such tragedies often have taken place during this period in the past. However, the present position is not sustainable. I wrote to the county manager at the same time I wrote to the Minister about this issue and about Bray in particular. Dublin Fire Brigade operates from Dún Laoghaire and the county manager's response was that a protocol had been arranged in respect of house fires to the effect that there would be co-operation or that the fire brigade stationed at Dún Laoghaire would be called on.
The joint committee should explore this issue. While it is not in my gift to make proposals regarding a joint committee of which I am not a member, I suggest that in addition to considering the request from the witnesses for an independent inquiry, an invitation should be issued to the county manager, the director of environmental services and the chief fire officer to address the joint committee in future. In particular, they should explain how they perceive the cover being provided for Bray and the north Wicklow area in general at present.
When chairman of Wicklow County Council, I instigated a feasibility study by the county council and the chief fire officer on the provision of a full-time fire service in the north Wicklow area. This is possible and should have been acted on by members of Wicklow County Council. Unfortunately, a catch-22 situation obtains in this regard. While the county council will state the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government must pay for it, the Department will assert it is a matter for the council to do so. The buck is being passed between them and I believe this has led to highly unsatisfactory fire cover in the north Wicklow area.
I reiterate my full support for the provision of a full-time fire service in Bray. Ms O'Brien, Ms Murray and Mr. O'Brien already have observed that Bray has a large population. I do not understand the reason Bray cannot have the same full-time fire service that Drogheda and Dundalk, which are of similar size and population, have enjoyed for several years. At the least, consideration should be given to the provision of daytime manning of a fire service in the Bray area because this is when traffic is at its peak and it is almost impossible for workers or fire service personnel to get through the town to get to the fire station when called out in emergency cases and so on. This is essential and must happen. I again call on the Minister to consider, even on an exceptional basis during this critical period, the provision of funding by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to allow Bray and Wicklow County Council to establish a daytime manning service in Bray.
I will continue to support both the provision of an independent inquiry and the provision of a full-time fire service for the north Wicklow area. I am a Government party Member and voted with it on the Private Members' motion because I stood for election as a Fianna Fáil candidate and I accept the democratic decision of the Government party of which I am a representative. At the same time however, I will not desist in my efforts to convince either the Minister of State, Deputy Killeen, or the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government that two steps should be taken. I refer to the provision of a full-time fire service for north Wicklow and a full independent inquiry into the events that led to this tragic fire, which resulted in the loss of the lives of these two brave men.
Mr. Loman O’Brien
While I agree with what Deputy Behan has just said, everyone appears to be missing the point that there is no fire cover for north Wicklow at present. The service is more vulnerable now than ever before in its history. At best, nine men are looking after a population of 55,000. We should get real. Everyone hopes that lightening will not strike twice but what happened a few months ago easily can happen in the morning.
The last time I spoke to the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Tony Killeen, in Leinster House, I pointed out some risks to him, one of which was that Bray is the centre of nursing homes on the east coast. An article appeared in the Irish Independent yesterday on how people are sedated in such nursing homes because they are less troublesome and so on. Two weeks after I spoke to Mr. Killeen, a fire broke out in a nursing home. While it was not a major incident, 12 people, including gardaí and fire fighters, were taken to hospital with smoke inhalation. The number of personnel one needs to evacuate a nursing home is one to one, at least. As 30 or 40 nursing homes are located in Bray, this is a ticking time bomb that will go off sooner or later. I hope we are not caught out again. Something must be done immediately. Someone needs to grab the bull by the horns and make a decision. There is no fire cover for Bray or north Wicklow at present.
The witnesses have made a strong direct and forthright presentation that has pulled no punches. Members appreciate what they have heard. I invite the witnesses to take their seats in the Visitors Gallery while the Minister of State takes his seat. I have been impressed by what I have heard and I have a number of questions for the Minister of State, Deputy Tony Killeen, and the Department on issues that arise from the position in Bray. The joint committee will return to this issue and will revert to the witnesses. They should understand that while members are neither the Minister nor the Department, the joint committee is a platform and can reach a view on the matters brought to its attention. Members will meet in support of the case put before them at the next available opportunity.
We will suspend the sitting for one minute to allow the witnesses to take their seats and to permit the Minister of State to come in to talk about fire services.
Ms Mary Murray
I thank Deputies McManus, Ciarán Lynch and Behan for supporting our call for an independent inquiry. This means a lot. It will mean a great deal to the people of Bray, who voted in these representatives. We greatly appreciate that they are on our side.
Ms Hazel O’Brien
I thank the joint committee for agreeing to meet us today.
Ms Mary Murray
I also thank the Minister of State, Deputy Killeen, for meeting us today.
Sitting suspended at 4.37 p.m. and resumed at 4.38 p.m.
I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Tony Killeen, and his officials to the meeting. I thank the Minister of State for his attendance and copies of his opening remarks have been circulated to members. This section of the meeting will involve a presentation from the Minister of State to be followed by a question and answer session with members. Inevitably, questions may be asked about which the Minister of State does not have information readily to hand. In such cases I will ask the Minister of State to arrange for replies to unanswered questions to be sent in writing to the joint committee.
I thank the Chairman and the joint committee for the invitation to attend this meeting.
Members will be aware that when I was invited to appear before the joint committee, the emphasis was on setting out the present position in respect of fire service in Ireland, the developments, if any, that have taken place since the production of the Farrell Grant Sparks report and on trying to outline, in a general manner, the options available to us in future. While the presentation was not prepared with the intention of dealing with specific matters raised by the Bray families, I appreciate the opportunity given to me by members and the people from Bray to listen to what they had to say. I have heard most of the points previously but, of necessity, my presentation is couched in general terms rather than in the specific context of Bray.
At the outset, I wish to pay tribute to the members of the fire service, both retained and full-time, for the excellent job they do in protecting people, infrastructure, property and the environment. The public is extremely fortunate to have a fire service on which it can rely and which never lets it down. Over the years, the challenges facing fire fighters have become ever more diverse and complex. As well as fighting fires, the service deals with a range of non-fire emergencies such as road traffic accidents, incidents involving hazardous materials, flooding and rescues, including water rescues. The fire service continues to face new and ever-more challenging incidents, and it is a sobering thought to recall that last year three of our fire fighters, Michael Listen in Foynes and Brian Murray and Mark O'Shaughnessy in Bray tragically lost their lives carrying out their jobs in the service of their communities. Members of the fire service, both retained and full-time, do a difficult job. The service exists to serve the public and the fire fighters serve it well. I wish to record my thanks and that of the Government for their selfless public service.
Local authorities provide fire services in Ireland and the job of Government is to ensure that the legislative framework is sound and to develop and support the fire services throughout the country. Some 3,400 people work in the fire service. More than 1,000 full-time firefighters work in our major cities and more than 2,000 retained staff respond to protect their own communities when needed. Some 170 senior personnel lead the service, including professional staff, who examine all building plans for fire safety and carry out inspections of premises. Both full-time and retained firefighters have top quality equipment and are trained to high professional standards. The Government has played its part in ensuring that the service continues to develop through greater investment in infrastructure and equipment, more staff, better training, improved communications and the legislation was updated most recently in 2003.
The annual running cost of fire service is now of the order of €230 million and approximately €100 million for Dublin. Since the early 1980s in excess of €260 million has been expended on capital funding on the fire services nationally. Out of a total of 200, 157 new or refurbished fire stations have been provided. A record ten fire stations were completed in 2007. More than 540 fire appliances and other fire fighting, emergency and rescue equipment has been purchased and made available to fire authorities. More than €173 million has been invested since 1998, with almost €24 million being allocated this year. Significant investment is being expended in enhancing training facilities for fire personnel, including €25 million for the O'Brien Institute, which is the Dublin Fire Brigade training centre.
Six years ago the Government decided that it was time for a critical examination of the fire service as a whole. Farrell Grant Sparks was commissioned to carry out the review and its report, Review of Fire Safety and Fire Services in Ireland, was published in 2002. The review was seen as necessary to take into account the changing role of our fire fighters, the increased knowledge and expertise internationally regarding rescue services and the economic and social development that had taken place in Ireland in the previous 20 years. Farrell Grant Sparks made a series of recommendations as follows: the establishment of a national fire and civil protection authority; more focus on fire safety, including the introduction of community fire safety initiatives, enhancement of fire safety legislation and better enforcement of building control regulations and fire safety, including "during performance" inspections; the adoption of a new risk-based approach to determining emergency cover; the introduction of new approaches and structures for major emergency management; the introduction of a competency-based approach to recruitment, retention and career progression and a competency based training regime; the enhancement of the service through continued high level capital investment to improve infrastructure; further development of safety, health and welfare arrangements; better co-ordination of resources between neighbouring local authorities; and more flexible deployment of staff at all levels.
Following consideration by Government of the Farrell Grant Sparks report and consultation with the principal stakeholders, the fire services change programme was launched in February 2005 by the then Minister, Deputy Roche, to advance the key fire safety and fire services recommendations of the report in the following four priority areas: community fire safety; a competency-based approach to recruitment, retention and career progression; an enhanced safety, health and welfare programmes for the fire fighter; and development of a risk-based approach to emergency cover. The change programme was designed to achieve the widely accepted changes recommended by Farrell Grant Sparks, but it was not about institutional change. It would provide an opportunity for all stakeholders to show commitment to a modernisation process to achieve best delivery of fire and emergency services in Ireland, and depending on the outcomes of the process, the question of how to build the structures necessary to support and embed change on a more permanent basis could be considered. I will return to this point later.
The change programme, together with other initiatives spearheaded by the Department, particularly in regard to amendments to legislation in what became the Fire Services Act 1981 and 2003, a separate review of the major emergency management framework and initiation of the Major Emergency Development Programme 2006-2008 addressed the major policy recommendations in the Farrell Grant Sparks report. Considerable progress has been made in each of the key priority areas.
Under the community fire safety programme, the primary schools fire safety programme is being delivered by local fire fighters to every third class in the country. Some 56,000 children are being educated about fire safety and they, in turn, bring the message to their families. It is expected that 17,000 homes will benefit from the community smoke alarm scheme. The scheme is being funded by the Department and rolled out by the local authorities in partnership with the voluntary sector. The Department's fire safety promotion activities are raising awareness of fire safety. A television, radio and outdoor media campaign took place from October to December 2007 and plans are being put in place for this year's media campaigns. Strong links have been forged with the Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service, which is a leader in this field. A pilot programme is being developed with the Health Service Executive to train public health nurses on fire safety and, if successful, it will be rolled out nationally.
In regard to competency, development of a competency-based system means career progression within the system, irrespective of point of entry, will be based on recognised competencies rather than on academic qualifications. It is not only about career progression. The fire fighter needs to know that he or she has the proper training to deal with incidents when called out. They need to know that the person in charge is competent. The competency-based approach for the fire service is concerned with the continuous development of people and organisations to established standards with proper examinations, testing and review of achievement. It is about putting in place a comprehensive set of national standards that can be applied to local needs.
The fire service competency-based system is being aligned with the national framework of qualifications. The Department is working with FETAC on the recruit fire fighter training programme. The building blocks necessary to support such a system have been identified and are being put in place. Nonetheless, completion of these steps is still expected to take at a minimum two further years of solid work.
An updated ancillary safety statement template for the fire service to comply with the 2005 health and safety legislation was developed and circulated to all fire authorities. A new national incident command system is being rolled out. Revised breathing apparatus guidelines were provided to local authorities. A critical incident stress management system to assist fire fighters in dealing with the aftermath of traumatic and stressful incidents was provided to local authorities.
The procurement for the supply and installation of a software utility is under way. When the process is completed and a contractor in place, fire authorities will have assistance to carry out a risk analysis in their functional areas in accordance with the system, which will assist them in the determination of emergency cover and the allocation of resources.
Fire authorities have implemented, on a phased basis, a new computer-aided mobilisation project, CAMP, referred to earlier. The Department has funded the project. Three mobilisation and communications centres in Limerick, Dublin and Castlebar to handle all fire brigade emergency calls have been developed to cover the country on a regional basis. The three centres provide the public with a professional response to 999/112 calls. The CAMP is an efficient, cost-effective and reliable mobilisation and communication system. Depending on the location and nature of incidents, the system ensures that the most appropriate fire brigades are alerted and mobilised promptly to respond efficiently to call-outs.
The Dublin Centre is operational, catering at present for 11 of the fire authorities in the Leinster region. The regional control centre in Limerick is fully operational and provides services for all of the Munster fire authorities. Provision of the mobilising and communications infrastructure is now complete in the regional control centre in Castlebar, which is serving the fire authorities of Connaught and Donegal.
I would like to mention briefly the progress that has been made in the area of emergency management. A separate review of the major emergency management field resulted in the development of a new major emergency management framework in 2005 and the initiation of the Major Emergency Development Programme 2006-2008. I might add that the work we are carrying out in this area has gone well beyond the recommendations of Farrell Grant Sparks in this regard.
Major emergency management is a key challenge and a priority issue for Government. The roll-out of the new framework will bring Ireland in line with international best practice in this area. The purpose of the new framework is to put in place arrangements that will enable the three principal response agencies, the local authorities, the Garda Síochána and the Health Service Executive to prepare for and make a co-ordinated response to major emergencies. The framework is the foundation block for the development of a new generation of major emergency plans by the principal response agencies. It sets out the mechanisms for co-ordination at all levels of major emergency management - on site, at local level, and at regional level with links to national level major emergency management architecture, when required.
I wish to acknowledge the place of local authority fire services in major emergency management over the years and the work of city and county managers and senior fire officers in the development process. The Major Emergency Development Programme 2006-2008 is currently being rolled out to implement the provisions of the framework. It is the objective to have the new format plans, including exercises and testing, completed by the autumn of this year.
The Fire Services Change Programme completed its two-year programme of work last July. Committee members will be aware that my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Gormley, on taking office last July, asked the Department to carry out a review of the progress achieved under the change programme and to present proposals for options for further development of the service, including examining the need for structural changes such as the establishment of a fire authority.
In carrying out this review, we must consider the lessons learnt from the fire services change programme. The change programme provided a vehicle for advancing priority projects in the selected key areas. The approach was designed to avoid adding bureaucracy or administration to service delivery but also to yield real improvements in capability and service and, thereby, result in real changes on the ground. It was especially important to make progress on the programmes being developed to protect the fire fighter and the public and, as I outlined earlier, significant results were achieved in this regard. As with any such programme, implementation difficulties arose in some local authority areas. These difficulties arose for a number of reasons including management priorities, resource issues, stakeholder resistance and change overload. In reconsidering structures to embed change on a more permanent basis, it will be necessary to ensure that the model will provide for better co-ordination at central level in order that consistent change can be achieved at local level. It will also be imperative that delivery of the service continue to be cost effective and provide value for money.
The establishment of a national fire authority was considered prior to the fire services change programme and has again been the subject of debate since the Bray tragedy. There are a number of different views on the merit of a national authority. As part of the review process, I have been consulting with the key stakeholders to ascertain their views on the lessons learned from the change programme and their views on the way forward. I am also grateful for the views of Bray families and the crew, the local authority management and public representatives in Bray and Wicklow, all of whom I have met in recent months. The lessons to be learned from the reports of the three investigations into the Bray tragedy will be also important as we continue our deliberations.
The success of any modernisation programme depends on the level of support that is received from across the service. I am determined to hear the views of all the parties as I consider the options for building a world class service. I have had meetings with SIPTU, representing both full-time and retained firefighters, the chief fire officers, the County and City Managers' Association and the Fire Services Council. I have sought their views on how they see the service being delivered in the future. I also intend to seek the views of locally elected members through their representative bodies.
In considering all the options, the Government must have regard to the needs of the fire service and the greater public interest. Irrespective of the way we move forward, the priorities will remain the same. The fire service is about protecting people, including the firefighter, infrastructure, property and the environment from fire and other emergencies by the provision of quality fire safety and emergency services. Ultimately it is not institutions that matter but people and my focus will be on ensuring that communities can look with confidence to fire services in which fire fighters are proud to serve. The completion of the review is a priority for Government and it is being progressed as a matter of urgency.
I thank the Cathaoirleach and the committee members for providing me with the opportunity to update the committee on these important fire service matters. I am in the process of meeting the various stakeholders. I intend to have a number of other meetings. I had hoped to have a follow-up meeting with SIPTU this week. I intend to hold a number of meetings over a short period. I would welcome the views of the committee on how the particular issues might be progressed and how we might address the difficulties outlined by the Bray people and which have been outlined to me by various members. At the end of this process I intend to put forward proposals to the Minister and to the Government which will improve the quality of the service for all stakeholders and take account of all their views. I also intend to take account of developments since the Farrell Grant Sparks report was published. I have outlined the number of developments. There are elements to the recommendations of Farrell Grant Sparks which go quite a long way beyond the fire service and these must be taken into account as we move to the next step. I accept the urgency but I acknowledge that progress can be made only with the co-operation of the key stakeholders which I have been trying to establish in a series of meetings in the past few months.
I thank the Minister of State for his presentation. We all appreciate that he has a national obligation and responsibility but for my part, this is not the reason I am attending this meeting. What we heard was a presentation about a town that suffered a tragedy. Five months ago, two men lost their lives serving the community. Quite apart from the tragic effect on their families, it affected the community and in a way blew a hole in the local fire service from which the service has not yet recovered.
The Minister of State listened to the previous presentation. My first question refers to the current situation in Bray and north Wicklow where it is quite clear, whatever about the deficiencies in the past, things have got worse. Who is responsible for setting a fire service standard for the people I represent and upon which they can rely? We have heard about staffing deficiencies, about call vetting, about appliances being defective. Is this the responsibility of the Minister of State? The grand plans and the framework are all very well but who provides the safeguards, if not the Minister of State? It is vital that those deficiencies be addressed now. It is not a matter of consultation but rather a matter of putting in place safeguards and standards. There has not been a safety statement for 13 years and this shows up the kind of risk that nobody can tolerate and which must be addressed now. What will be done about this in the short term, in the now and quite apart from what must be done in the future?
The second question relates to the independent inquiry. I have spoken privately to the Minister of State and he has received a formal submission from right across the board, including from the County Wicklow TDs. Will we get our independent inquiry?
Deputy Behan made a reference which I took to mean that somehow civil servants were a problem. I believe the Minister of State can make the decision, in consultation with his senior Minister, to enable the holding of an independent inquiry. I ask the Minister of State to explain if there is some difficulty in the background, because I do not see it. It would be most regrettable if somehow the officials were blamed for something that is a ministerial responsibility as I see it. I ask the Minister of State to give an undertaking here that there will be an independent inquiry. That is what we are here for. I hope the response will be positive.
My last point is a point also raised by Mary Murray. Why do we need so many chiefs when in Northern Ireland there is one chief? While it is not perfect, that system seems to be a much more modern and advanced system than ours, in terms of staffing, structure and organisation. How long does this consultation go on? Six years ago, the Government appointed consultants to come up with proposals. They made very clear recommendations and a key recommendation was a national fire authority. Nobody has come up with a coherent argument against that and yet the Minister of State seems to be of the view that he must consult and consult. I am aware this is also a pressing need in the Minister of State's own constituency. Some kind of structure in the form of a national authority is required to get the system working effectively and to ensure that risk is minimised.
I thank the Minister of State for his presentation. It goes without saying the presentation was made in the context of the earlier presentation. The Minister of State referred to the change programme which has many positive aspects, the most obvious being the introduction of a competency-based system. This clears up one anomaly to do with how managerial appointments are made in the fire service. It seems that a third level graduate can be appointed to quite a significant position in the fire service without ever having picked up a hose in his or her life. Other aspects deal with regional control centres. There is no full-time fire service in the whole of County Mayo. The second biggest county in the country which has a control centre does not have a full-time fire service and this raises a question in itself.
There seems to be a time leap in one critical part of the Minister of State's presentation. The Minister of State, Deputy Roche, was not in the Department at the time. There were two previous Ministers, Deputies Dempsey and Cullen, both of whom are on record in this House as being categorically in support of the report's recommendations. While the change programme takes on board a number of aspects of the Farrell Grant Sparks report, the key recommendation of the Farrell Grant Sparks report is the creation of a national fire authority. Is this concept still on the agenda or was it sent sideways by the then Minister, Deputy Roche, in the previous Administration and is it now out completely? When we debated this matter in the Dáil in the autumn, the Minister, Deputy Gormley, said he was keeping an open mind on the matter. The impression I am getting this afternoon is that there is considerable fudging and hedging on the issue and that the key recommendation of the report will be considered further down the line while we consider some of its lesser aspects.
I believe all these matters are related. The need for an independent inquiry into the events in Bray is crystal clear and has been reinforced this afternoon. What I said to the group that made that presentation, I say again now to the Minister of State. As was the case in the Stardust and other inquiries, and as per the key recommendation of the Farrell Grant Sparks report, if an inquiry is carried out into what happened in Bray its recommendation will be to establish a national fire authority. Has the concept of a national fire authority now disappeared? Will the Department now - several months later - move to establish an independent inquiry?
I am sorry I missed the presentations by the Bray Fire Services Campaign. However, I am aware of its issues. To pick up on what Deputy Ciarán Lynch just said, I believe the findings of any inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the tragedy in Bray would state that we need a national fire authority. The Farrell Grant Sparks report identified a national fire authority as the primary recommendation, which was accepted by the then Minister, Deputy Dempsey. However, I believe an inquiry would go one step further and have some of the work done for the national fire authority. We have ludicrous county boundaries. For instance there is a roundabout in the northern part of Bray, which I believe is in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown and which is to all intents and purposes the boundary line. By protocol a fire tender cannot go from one area to the other as the first call.
The following change will cost money. We have fire tenders in different local authorities with different kinds of tap head equipment - that may not be the correct term - which are not compatible with each other. We do not have fluid capabilities to bring in reserves from other areas. It is not that straightforward and it should be. If more tenders are needed they should be supplied from other districts, if districts come into being. It needs to be a streamlined and seamless service. At the moment it is crazy for a small country. We needed to nationalise a health service from having 11 area boards into one, which I believe was a mistake. However, to have 43 separate fire services is like something from the Dark Ages. It was established before we had motorised transport. We need to review that. Apart from the exact circumstances that led to the tragedy, much of what should be in place is very simple.
The other inquiries will do their job, but none of them will establish what went wrong on the day. They will establish the results of what went wrong but not what went wrong, why it went wrong and how it can be prevented. There was unanimous cross-party agreement after a long meeting with the families of the fire fighters in the Bray area that we would send a request for an independent inquiry. As the representative from the area where the tragedy occurred, I would like to see a proper response to take on board the cross-party support for this inquiry.
I extend my sympathy to the O'Shaughnessy and Murray families on the shocking deaths of Mark and Brian. Like Deputy Doyle, I am sorry I was missing earlier. I had another appointment to which I must return shortly. I cannot see the logic of not having a national fire authority as has been recommended. In its absence the only conclusion I can come to is that the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government wants to retain control of the fire services throughout the country and does not want an independent body to manage them. The Minister of State may argue that his Department does not have any control of local authorities. In my view the Department does control it but does not have any responsibility. Nor does the local authority have any responsibility because a provision in the Fire Services Act 1981 basically gives immunity from prosecution to the authorities for a failure of the authorities to provide an adequate fire service. That section of the Act needs to be repealed as a matter of urgency. It is a cop-out and I do not know how this House passed it.
The 1981 Act gives power to the Minister to establish an independent inquiry, which is the only answer here. Nobody ever likes to pre-empt the result of an inquiry. There is not confidence in the ability of the three ongoing inquiries to come up with answers regarding the tragedy in Bray, irrespective of what the results might be. It will not cost a significant amount. It is in the interest of the local authority and the fire service in Bray to have a full-time service. Members from this side of the House plead with the Minister of State to establish an independent inquiry, which will need to happen at some stage and might as well be done now.
I will try to address the issues as best I can. I take the points made by the Wicklow Deputies regarding the appalling impact on the Bray service of the deaths of the two fire fighters and the impact on their colleagues. Among the issues raised by Deputy McManus was the allegation or belief that there was no safety statement for 13 years. Of course that matter is specifically covered under the Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act 2005. It is the responsibility of the Health and Safety Authority. It is not an issue for second-guessing; it is an issue to be dealt with by it and it is one of the authorities undertaking an inquiry at the moment. I will come back to that matter regarding the independent inquiry.
Virtually everybody also made the point about the quality of the service and the co-operation across county boundaries. Unfortunately the point made by Deputy Doyle, not just for this geographic area but also for many areas of the country, is true. It was pointed out in the Farrell Grant Sparks report and there is considerable evidence that there could be far better co-operation across county boundaries to improve the quality of service. In the Bray area there has been considerable co-operation with the Dublin service in recent months.
Deputy McManus posed the question as to why there are so many chiefs and made a comparison with the Northern Ireland service. In a sense, that is central to how we move towards the next phase of managing and delivering this service. Under the provisions of the 1981 Act, there are 34 local authorities with separate fire authorities and fire chiefs. To some extent, the Farrell Grant Sparks report deals with that, but not to the extent that I could comfortably put forward a model for a national fire service that would deliver on all the key points outlined by Deputies and the Bray delegation. That difficulty must be faced to get to the next stage. It is all very well for people who are not charged with these responsibilities to say that it is a cop-out to speak to or listen to the stakeholders. Unless I am prepared to speak to or listen to them this matter will go nowhere. I will need to get them on board and it is not open to me to act as a dictator and tell them I am wiping out or amalgamating particular services. I will get stakeholder buy-in and I am happy with the responses I have received from--
I am sorry to interrupt the Minister of State but it sounds a bit like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas. He would be having a different discussion with them if he stated "I am the Minister and I intend to establish the authority. Now let's talk about it." He is not saying that, however. He is just saying "Let's talk about talking about it".
Surely he needs to provide leadership on this.
I am speaking to them and listening to them. I am saying this is how far the Farrell Grant Sparks report went, these are the priorities it sets out, and this is how far it goes on the model for a national authority. It does not set out the necessary level of clarity that would enable me to click my fingers and deliver it. If it did, it would be a simple issue. To respond to Deputy Ciarán Lynch's point, the national authority is on the agenda. It seems likely to be the best resolution from what is currently a difficult situation. It is not a resolution I am prepared to trumpet as a cure-all when I know it is not. I am not prepared to say "Hurray, I'm a great fellow. I'm delivering a national authority that everybody wants", while knowing in my heart that there are inherent difficulties, resistance and issues that must be addressed if I honestly want to do that. I want to get the best quality service possible. I have no vested interest, one way or the other, apart from obtaining the best quality service for the community, including the fire fighters. It is not an easy job to do but I am putting a great deal of work into trying to achieve it. I appreciate the engagement of the Chairman and other members of the committee, particularly those from Wicklow, including the Bray area, who have been very forthcoming with their views. On this occasion, it is not a "click your fingers and deliver" solution but I will put as much work as I can into it. If at some stage I find that a key stakeholder or anyone in the area is blocking my attempts to deliver such a service I will say so publicly. I will tell the committee exactly what I have come up against. My current view is that all the stakeholders are prepared to co-operate with me and I am prepared to give them some time to tease out the best solution and format for dealing with this at national level but delivering it at local level, as it must be. There are quite a number of problems, however.
Deputy Ciarán Lynch mentioned the Castlebar call-out and the fact that there are no full-time services in Mayo. The call-out service does not really differentiate between whether it is a full-time or retained service. It is getting the best service most quickly to deal with the situation as it arises. That is in everybody's interest.
Just for the record, the second largest county in Ireland does not have a full-time fire service.
Yes, but it is entirely a matter for the local authority to decide how best--
And it is a control centre for a province.
It is for Connacht and the counties of Ulster. In so far as I have had considerable dealings with this issue, the views on the call-out service are pretty positive. There have been some difficulties in roll-out but that is gradually going in the right direction. Deputy Lynch also thinks that the independent inquiry would recommend the establishment of a national authority. I am sure it would be helpful if they could tell us exactly how to do it, taking account of the points made by Deputies Doyle, Timmins and others about delivering it.
It is also important to bear in mind the point made by Deputy McManus. I listen to the advice from departmental officials but I am faced with a situation where three inquiries are currently under way. There is a Garda Síochána inquiry, which is limited but is statutorily based. There is an inquiry by the local authority under the 1981 legislation. It is required to make that inquiry, not because I say so or because any of us think it should or should not do so. It is required to do so because the legislation passed by the Houses of the Oireachtas says so. There is also the inquiry by the Health and Safety Authority which, because of my previous job, is the one I know most about. There is no question but that this inquiry will be independent and that it will pursue every issue to the ultimate degree. The Minister, Deputy Gormley, and I have consistently said that while three inquires are under way - all of them dealing with particular aspects and one of them, by the HSA, operating under legislation I brought through the Houses, and which will be wide-ranging and thorough - it would be very difficult to establish terms of reference to set up a fourth inquiry going over much of the same ground covered by the other three inquiries in advance of their reports. It does not stand up logically but if at the end of the process I can be persuaded that there are sufficient deficiencies in what is made available from the reports, I will re-examine the possibility of a fourth inquiry. That is where I stand, quite independently of what officials might think. The Department does not want to hold control.
I will examine Deputy Timmins's point on that section of the 1981 Act. It is important to remember that the Farrell Grant Sparks report clearly says that in its view legislation would be required. It regards it as a medium-term project. Naturally, in that context, if I have legislation the committee will have an opportunity to table amendments. Full account will be taken of all the existing legislation and any shortcomings members may feel it contains. A strengthening of the provision for co-operation by authorities is urgently required. In addition, deficiencies in the current remit, as outlined by members of the committee and the Bray delegation, must be addressed in terms of the responsibilities of whatever kind of authority or national plan emerges for the fire service.
I will make a few observations, some of which arise from what has been said in the presentations but they have broader implications than the Bray situation. I had not heard about the vetting issue before. Is it still in existence and, if not, when did it cease? The second issue that was mentioned concerned counselling for members of the fire service. The departmental officials might wish to consider those comments.
I understand from members of the fire service in County Laois that while the ambulance crew, HSE staff and others who attend a fatal accident will subsequently receive counselling, the same is not true for firefighters. It is mandatory within the HSE that all staff who attend the scene of a fatal accident attend counselling. However, there is no requirement within the fire service that firefighters receive such treatment. All emergency workers who are called to fatal accidents should be treated equally in this regard and such provision should be available on a nationwide basis. It is unfair that firefighters should not receive the same counselling that is available to their colleagues in the Garda, HSE and ambulance service. At the scene of a fatal accident, it is often the fire service personnel who have the heaviest work to do in cutting people out of vehicles and so on.
What is the position in regard to fire certificates and safety statements for fire stations? While we were told that this is covered by legislation, is it not the case that many public buildings do not require fire certificates? I understand, for example, that Leinster House does not have a fire certificate. Many older public buildings are managed by the Office of Public Works and are exempt from these requirements. Will the Minister of State confirm whether there are exemptions for large categories of buildings to which the public has access?
Reference was made to the cost of the fire service. I noticed recently that fire service call-out fees have increased phenomenally. After a recent house fire, constituents of mine were presented with a bill for €5,000. They had to pay extra for equipment and wages because the fire took place at the weekend. The clear message from my local authority was that if one must have a fire, one should make sure it happens during office hours when firefighting services are cheaper. I do not mean to be flippant.
One should be sure not to have a fire during rush hour in Bray.
On the funding of the service, is there a requirement in general for local authorities to recoup as much funding as possible?
I understand different local authorities charge different call-out rates, so one might have to choose one emergency service over another to ensure the fire is extinguished at a cheaper rate.
I accept that where buildings or vehicles are insured, it is only right that the insurance company should contribute to the cost of extinguishing a fire. That is the purpose of insurance. Will the Minister of State give a general indication of the position in regard to fees or undertake to send us the information in due course? It is up to each local authority to set its fees but I am sure they are not all operating in a vacuum. I assume some guidelines have been issued to them. Any information the Minister of State can offer now will be appreciated and the rest can follow.
There have been allegations in regard to call vetting and those allegations are undoubtedly pertinent in the context of the Health and Safety Authority inquiry. I am sure they will be examined as part of that inquiry. I am assured that under the computer aided mobilisation project, CAMP, system, every call received results in a call-out.
I will return to the Chairman with detailed information on counselling services. I understood the service was considerably more robust and helpful than was outlined by the Bray delegation.
Fire certificates and safety statements are separate issues. There is a fire certificate provision relating to public buildings and I will forward the details of that to the committee. Safety statements are required in all workplaces.
To the best of my knowledge, it is a matter for the local authority to set its scale of charges for call-outs. It is crucial that there is some balance between the independence of local authorities and the need to ensure a high quality service universally in terms of training and delivery.
Has the Minister of State any information on when the reports will be ready?
I have no definitive information.
I thank the delegation from Bray, the Minister of State and his officials for attending the meeting. It was helpful to have the Minister of State here and I am grateful he sat in on the earlier part of the meeting. The committee will return to this issue in due course to ascertain whether we can make any meaningful input.
A proposal was put before the committee earlier in the meeting. Can we leave this item on the agenda for discussion at the next meeting?
I do not propose to take any formal decision today. We will consider it at the next meeting.
The joint committee adjourned at 5.25 p.m. sine die.