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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Tuesday, 17 Feb 2009

Annual Report and Accounts 2007: Discussion with RPII.

I welcome Dr. Ann McGarry, chief executive, and directors, Dr. Tony Colgan, Dr. Barbara Rafferty, Dr. Tom Ryan and Mr. David Pollard, from the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland to discuss its annual report and accounts 2007. As this is their first appearance before the joint committee since 2005, they are particularly welcome. The format of our meeting will involve a brief presentation on the work of the RPII followed by a question and answer session.

Before we begin, I draw attention to the fact that members of this committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Dr. McGarry may proceed with her presentation.

Dr. Ann McGarry

I thank the Chairman and the members of the joint committee for the invitation to the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland to attend this meeting. We are pleased to have the opportunity to brief the committee on recent developments in the work of the RPII. Our chairman, Professor Eugene Kennedy, regrets that he is unable to attend today's meeting but he and the board would be very happy to meet the committee at a future date if the members would find it useful.

The aim of the RPII is to protect people from the harmful effects of exposure to ionising radiation. We do this by regulating all those who use ionising radiation in Ireland, by monitoring the levels of radiation to which Irish people are exposed and by providing advice for the Government and the public on radiation hazards and the measures needed to protect people. As the joint committee members will be aware, ionising radiation is emitted by man-made sources used both in industry and medicine and by natural radiation sources present in our environment, such as radon gas and cosmic radiation.

In May 2008, the RPII published a comprehensive study, Radiation Doses Received by the Irish Population, which detailed the radiation sources to which Irish people are exposed and the average level of exposure from each source. This study updated our existing data and it was the first time that all sources were assessed together, thereby providing a baseline against which we can measure changes in radiation exposure over time. The study showed that the estimated average annual radiation dose in Ireland from all sources of radiation is 3,950 units of exposure or microsieverts. Of this total exposure, 86% is due to natural radiation sources, about 14% is due to medical sources and the remainder of less than 1% is due to artificial sources. I will explain each of these in turn in a little more detail.

The natural radiation sources to which we are all exposed include radon and thoron gas in buildings and cosmic radiation. We also receive a radiation dose from small amounts of natural radioactivity in the food we eat and from the natural radioactivity that is present in the ground. Radon is by far the largest source of radiation exposure and it contributes about 56% of the total. Cosmic radiation, thoron, food and the ground each contribute between 6%and 8% of the total.

In our study we also estimated the radiation doses to Irish people from widely used medical techniques such as X-ray, CT scanning and nuclear medical examinations. We compiled data from Irish hospitals on the number of examinations undertaken each year together with the average radiation dose associated with each examination and used these values to estimate an average dose to each person. This was estimated to be about 540 microsieverts or 14% of the total radiation exposure.

We also looked at exposure to artificial sources of radiation to which Irish people are exposed. These include fall-out that is present in soil following the Chernobyl accident and the nuclear weapons testing conducted throughout the world in the 1950s and 1960s. Radioactivity present in the Irish environment as a result of discharges from Sellafield and the use of radioactive sources at work also contribute to the radiation dose from artificial sources. We estimated each of these individual components and they give rise to a total radiation dose of 15 microsieverts or 0.4% of the total radiation dose.

I have briefly outlined the average situation with regard to radiation doses received in Ireland. In its work the RPII takes account of the average doses, but it also seeks to address individual doses which can be very different for exposure to both natural and artificial radiation. In addition to minimising actual exposure, an important aspect of the RPII's work is to prevent unnecessary exposure. I will now briefly outline the main areas of the RPII's work.

I have already highlighted the very significant contribution arising from exposure to radon in buildings. This exposure to radon represents a serious risk to the health of Irish people and RPII estimates that between 150 to 200 lung cancer deaths in Ireland each year are linked to radon exposure. The number of lung cancer deaths can be reduced if the radon level in every home is measured and if remedial action is taken where a high level is found. To date only 36,000 houses of a total housing stock of about 1.75 million have been measured by RPII. Of these houses, 4,600 or 13% of those measured have been found to have radon levels above the reference level of 200 Bq/m3, with 452 having levels above 800 Bq/m3. In summary, only about 2% of the national housing stock has been measured for radon and we are aware that a very small proportion of those houses found to have high levels have been remediated.

RPII is continuing to proactively engage with all of the relevant stakeholders, underlining the need for each to play their part in developing a national approach to address this serious public health issue. In particular, in the follow-up campaign to the extremely high radon level found in a workplace in Mallow in mid-2007, the RPII worked very effectively with the Health Service Executive from a public health point of view and with the Health and Safety Authority from an occupational health perspective. The RPII has also welcomed the very proactive and positive initiatives undertaken both by Cork County Council and Mallow Town Council in measuring radon in social housing in their areas. This work is continuing in 2009 and the RPII has already made two presentations in Cobh at the invitation of the town council. We are due to publish a joint statement on radon with the HSE and are working with several local authorities to address the radon issue in their area. We are also working with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to see if funding can be made more widely available for radon measurement and remediation in social housing.

X-ray equipment and radiation sources have very many beneficial uses in society today, particularly in medicine and industry. In Ireland, for example, radiation sources are widely used in the diagnosis of disease and the treatment of cancer. Such uses bring positive benefits to individual patients and to society in general, but because of the inherent hazards associated with ionising radiation, radiation sources must be properly regulated and controlled. The RPII devotes significant effort to ensuring that all enterprises using radiation sources are licensed and that they have appropriate procedures in place to manage the radiation hazard. The RPII's regulatory programme includes inspection of licensees and the inspection process has recently been accredited to the relevant ISO standard. At the end of 2008, more than 1,700 licences were in force. The principal challenges in the regulatory area have been rapid increase in the number of private hospitals seeking a licence to use radioactive sources for medical purposes and the increasing complexity and sophistication of the techniques being employed. The expansion in the delivery of radiotherapy services by public hospitals as part of the national cancer control programme will also be challenging from a radiological protection perspective and will require a step increase in the availability of suitably experienced medical physics staff to support the programme. We are working closely with those involved to ensure that these new facilities are properly managed and staffed from a radiological protection point of view.

The joint committee will be aware that the RPII has for many years highlighted the lack of a national facility for storage of radioactive sources and materials that are no longer in use as a significant gap in Ireland's radiation protection infrastructure. The current situation whereby such sources are stored on site by some 80 individual licensees raises serious concerns about their long term safety and security and is out of line with best international practice. We are very pleased that a high level Interdepartmental committee chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Kitt, has been established to address this issue and we are participating actively in the committee to bring about a solution. In the interim, we are undertaking joint inspections with officers from the National Crime Prevention Office to ensure that the security arrangements put in place by individual licensees are of a high standard.

In the RPII we are very aware of Government and public concern about the activities at Sellafield. When we were last before this committee in 2005, we set out in detail the findings of our visit to Sellafield the previous year. At that time, we highlighted our concern at the practice of storing highly radioactive liquid waste in tanks on the Sellafield site. Since 2005, mainly due to operational problems with the THORP plant, the volume of this material has been reducing at a faster rate than had been indicated, with a consequent reduction in the associated risk to Ireland. We are continuing to enhance our in-house arrangements to respond to a nuclear incident abroad and are actively engaging with other organisations under the framework for major emergency management.

While we have always maintained a good working relationship with the UK nuclear regulators, these contacts have intensified in recent years with an increasing flow of information to us. During 2009, representatives from the RPII have been invited by the UK Environment Agency to participate in a review of discharges of radioactivity from Sellafield and by the nuclear installations inspectorate to participate in a review of their regulatory infrastructure.

We continue also to give priority to our monitoring programmes as they are the basis on which we are in a position to provide advice for the Government and the public. During 2008, we carried out a major study of marine habits along the north east coast to ensure that our marine monitoring programme continues accurately to assess the exposure to the population from radioactivity in the marine environment. For 2009, we are planning a major strategic review of all our monitoring activities by international experts to ensure that our programmes continue to be in line with best international practice and to meet the needs of the Government and the public. That completes my presentation to the joint committee.

My colleagues and I will be very happy to take questions on our work on radiation doses received by the Irish population or any aspect of the RPII's work.

I thank Dr. McGarry for her interesting presentation. She stated that exposure to radon in buildings represents a serious risk to the health of the people and estimated that as many as 2,000 lung cancer deaths in Ireland are linked to radon exposure. She also said that only 36,000 houses of a total stock of approximately 1.75 million have been measured by her group. What is the reason for this? Is the need for the test widely advertised in local newspapers? We do not hear much about it.

Dr. McGarry also referred to Cork County Council and Mallow Town Council. They have been involved in measuring radon in social housing in their areas. What is the uptake from other councils throughout the country? I was a member of a county council for a long time but I never heard this matter discussed at a council meeting or by officials. Is enough being done by the State and local authorities? If not, what can we do to highlight this issue? Should the Minister or his officials address the committee on this matter? If there is a charge for the test it would be unfair to expect householders in social housing or single parent families to meet that cost. Perhaps there is no charge for the test. Could Dr. McGarry enlighten me as to the action taken by local authorities on this matter?

Can Dr. McGarry expand on the contents of the joint statement on radon, which the RPII and the HSE is due to publish? Previous documents issued by the institute say 200 deaths per year occur because of radon poisoning. Does Dr. McGarry have more up to date information in that regard?

The RPII action plan on radon of 2006 refers to studies of householders who, although their houses have high radon levels, do not install radon remediation measures such as radon barriers. The studies investigate why this might be. It is my understanding that this is due to the cost of installing these measures. Dr. McGarry, in her presentation, seems to propose a grant scheme to assist people to install mediation measures. There is such a grant scheme in Northern Ireland. Does the RPII support the provision of such a grant?

Are the new building regulations effective in ensuring that houses have lower radon levels? Have any studies been done on this question and what are their results?

Dr. McGarry stated that during 2008 the institute carried out a major study of marine habits along the north-east coast to ensure that our marine monitoring programme continues to accurately assess the exposure to the population from radioactivity in the marine environment. Does Dr. McGarry have results of that study and was anything unusual found?

I note that the RPII has four directors and one chief executive. What is the responsibility of each director?

Builders now take action to prevent radon in new houses. Has the institute plans to highlight the danger of radon in older houses, particularly local authority houses? I know there have been information campaigns but I have not seen one in the recent past.

I believe the institute carried out a drill for action in the event of a leakage at Sellafield and plans were put in place for the possibility of that happening. What plans does Ireland have to cope with such an eventuality? Does the Government have a plan of action? Does the institute have training programmes to make people more aware of the dangers of radiation and radon? How much annual funding does the RPII receive and how much of it is allocated to promoting the organisation and the work it is doing? Is the institute satisfied that the emergency services are adequately briefed to deal with a nuclear incident?

There are 80 licensees for storage of radioactive material. Does the RPII issue these licences? I do not wish to know exactly where the sites are, but is the institute satisfied that security at the locations is adequate?

Dr. Ann McGarry

I thank the Deputies for their questions. I apologise for not introducing my colleagues at the beginning. I am accompanied by the following: Dr. Barbara Rafferty, director of corporate services; Dr. Tony Colgan, director of advisory services — the group within the institute which provides advice for the Government on a range of issues, including radon, nuclear safety and emergency preparedness — and also responsible for the communications programme of the institute; Dr. Tom Ryan, director of regulatory services — the service which licenses all users of ionising radiation; and Mr. David Pollard, director of radiation monitoring and measurement services — the service which deals with monitoring radiation in the environment. Members may have noted in our annual report a number of services we supply to persons using radiation sources in Ireland. I will address the questions in a broad sense and then ask my colleagues to provide more detailed information.

Deputy Brady queried the reasons he had not heard more about the radon gas issue. The Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland began working on the issue in the late 1980s when it was first recognised internationally that radon may pose a health hazard to people living in their homes. At the time the institute conducted a national survey and the level of radon was measured in houses in every county in Ireland. The measurements were conducted for free, on foot of which the institute produced a radon map which showed the areas most affected.

In the early 1990s and since the institute has conducted a number of campaigns to inform people about the hazards of exposure to radon in their homes. The institute provides a radon measurement service at a cost of €50 per householder. It has been working with a number of organisations and agencies to try to improve the position in measuring the level of radon in people's homes and, once high levels are found, to engage in remediation. We have had limited success in this regard.

What has been noticeable in recent years is that the institute is securing a higher level of engagement from the local authorities. That experience is not unusual internationally.

Deputy Tuffy mentioned the radon action plan. Members will see that there is a problem in getting people to understand radon could pose a hazard for them. The first objective is to get them to measure the level of radon gas and once there is a hazardous reading, to get them to act on it. The institute has worked extensively on its own to try to raise the profile of the issue but recognises — this is the experience in the United States — that if various bodies work together, particularly with those working on public health issues, the general public is more likely to be concerned if they hear about the problem from a number of sources, not just from the institute, a specialist technical agency which is dealing with a subject that is seen as unusual. The institute is working with various Departments and agencies, as well as the local authorities in this regard.

Dr. McGarry misinterpreted the point I was making. I stated I had never heard of council officials making an issue of their housing stock. We have heard about the problem of radon gas in schools and the tremendous work done by the Department of Education and Science in that respect. My point is that the county councils do not seem to be as concerned about having their housing stock tested.

Is it now a condition of all planning permissions that radon barriers must be included at construction stage?

Dr. Ann McGarry

A radon sump must be included in all new houses and in areas where there is a high incidence of radon a radon barrier must be included.

What is the purpose of a radon sump?

Dr. Ann McGarry

One needs to understand how radon gas gets into a house in the first place. It comes from the ground beneath a house. Essentially the sump is a space under the floor of the house, like a box with holes, attached to a pipe. By using a fan one can draw air containing radon out from under the house before it enters.

Where is the exit pipe?

Dr. Ann McGarry

It is usually placed on the outside wall of the house. I am afraid I am not a construction expert.

I have seen sumps but in most cases did not see an extraction pipe.

It should be found on every subfloor of the house.

Dr. Ann McGarry

I will ask Dr. Colgan to fill in the details on current activities.

Dr. Tony Colgan

I thank Dr. McGarry. One of the points raised was that there was a low up-take. There was a reference to the national survey conducted between 1992 and 1997 when the uptake rate was 25% and there was free testing. There are several firms which take measurements and we must charge because they charge. As a consequence, the uptake rate is much lower. When we found extremely high levels in 2004, we wrote to 2,500 householders, of whom only 350 had measurements taken. Therefore, the uptake rate will always be extremely low. The view of the RPII is that it would like to reach the stage where radon measurements are taken when homes are bought and sold, that such a measurement would form part of the requirements to be fulfilled. At that stage if radon levels were high, they would have to be reduced. That is the view internationally. The experience internationally is that if people are left to their own devices, they will not have radon levels measured. When measurements are taken, it is usually following the carrying of an information item and there is an instantaneous response. Nobody thinks through the implications if readings are high. This is in line with experience internationally and explains the reason remediation rates are low. People have not thought through that if the radon reading is high, they will have to spend more money. That is the reason the RPII has recommended the provision of aid. One must think carefully about the costs involved. The experience of RPII staff is that when a Government grant is available, the cost of the work increases by the value of the grant. The other aspect is that one must build in a guarantee that the work done will be effective. This is an important point.

One of the issues for staff of the RPII is that all the specific skills required to deal with the issue do not reside in the RPII. Radon poses a health risk and the RPII does not employ medical staff. That expertise is to be found in the HSE. I do not think members will hear anything new in what the HSE and the RPII have to state, but it underlines the fact it is not only a radiation safety issue but a health issue also.

What is the cost of having a test carried out on a house?

Dr. Tony Colgan

The cost is €56 when the RPII carries it out. The cost ranges from €25 to €90.

I apologise for missing most of the presentation but I had to absent myself owing to a vote in the Seanad.

As the environment spokesperson for Fine Gael in the Seanad, I follow the radon issue closely. I come from the south east and there are high radon levels in that area. I agree with Deputy Brady on the level of engagement with local authorities and I feel there is a problem in that regard. Some time ago I phoned various local authorities off the cuff to ask who could advise me on radon levels; I did this as a test. In eight out of ten phone calls I got nowhere.

I am aware of the good work done by the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland and attended a very good seminar it held before Christmas on Kildare Street. However, the seminar mainly involved policy makers, professionals and those directly involved in the area of radon. Much work must be done in raising awareness of radon issues and I do not expect the institute to do this on its own. Local authorities are best placed in this regard because they are in every county and city and have staff, including engineering staff, and offices in every area. Local authorities are closest to the constituents and areas that may be affected. The committee should recommend to the Department a statutory role for local authorities in monitoring radon; I do not expect the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland to take responsibility for the whole country. The institute has the necessary technical and advisory staff but more people are needed in local areas to inform the general public on a day to day basis and local authorities have the infrastructure to do this. Provision should be made in budgets and legislation to ensure local authorities carry out this function.

Regarding radon awareness generally, am I correct that the last national survey was conducted in 1999?

Dr. Ann McGarry

It covered the period 1992 to 1997.

The schools were surveyed in 2004. Will another survey be undertaken? Mapping was mentioned and it is a great help that any member of the public can access the website of the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland to see this. However, the mapping is too broad and is not definitive enough; a whole block coloured red could cover ten square miles and there could be much deviation in that area. Many places within that block may not be at any risk of radon exposure while others may be at quite a high risk. Much work must be done to make the mapping more specific and to help raise awareness levels among the general public.

I compliment the speakers on their informed and interesting presentation. In late 2006 the World Health Organization issued a report that estimated that more than 200 people die in Ireland every year due to exposure to radon gas; this highlighted the lack of action by the Government. I raised the issue in the Seanad because I was a Senator at the time and I was shocked at the response of the then Leader of the House, an experienced politician. She said people throughout the country should open their windows and that was her solution to the danger. It was a flippant and wrong response because at that time the Government axed the small grant that had existed for testing equipment and so on.

Currently more than 100,000 homes in Ireland are at risk of exposure to poisonous radon gas and it is a serious situation for all of us. Some 13% of deaths from lung cancer in Ireland have been attributed to radon gas and this should cause alarm bells to ring. Action must be taken on this issue soon. Like previous speakers, I looked at the relevant map of Ireland that shows especially high levels of radon gas in Counties Longford and Westmeath and across the midlands. More than 10% of houses are thought to have radon exposure above the acceptable level and in some areas more than 20% of houses register high levels of radon gas. We must prioritise in this matter because some areas are worse hit than others. It is essential that people are made aware of the dangers of radon gas. The general public needs more information and items like monitoring kits should be made available through the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland. The institute has facilitated people who requested such things but local authorities should play a greater role in this area as they are central to completely eliminating the risk of radon gas.

It is disgraceful that more than 200 people die because of exposure to radon gas in Ireland every year. That figure is reliable because it comes from the World Health Organization and has not been contradicted.

What kind of money is available to the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland to make progress on the issue of radon? What is the institute's budget for this year and what will it achieve?

The delegates seem to suggest that there should be free radon measurement. Dr. Tony Colgan seemed to say there would be a higher uptake if there were free radon measurement and that this would be ideal. I had the measurement done and it cost €79. I can see how the cost might put people off. Thankfully the level in my house was very low — around 50 becquerels.

The delegates did not answer my question on new houses. New houses are built according to the new regulations, which should ensure that radon remediation is carried out in the building of houses. Are these regulations being complied with?

Dr. Ann McGarry

I will follow up on one or two questions and then hand over to Dr. Tony Colgan. I thank the Deputies and Senators for encouraging local authorities to get involved in this issue. It is fair to say that when the RPII began contacting local authorities five years ago initial contact was made by letter. We would explain the situation in writing and ask local authorities to do something about it. We realised, however, that we got very little traction by just writing letters. Senator Coffey already highlighted the national radon forum last November. We found it extremely useful to allow local authorities to use their experience to explain to other local authorities what they had done. This was what we did in Cork, for example. By taking this approach and using the example of certain local authorities we are getting better engagement from other local authorities. It is important that we continue to do this. Some verbal feedback suggested local authorities did not know what we expected of them and much work lies in giving them an example of how they need to proceed. The support and encouragement this committee is giving us is very helpful for local authorities. If the committee is interested in pursuing this issue, perhaps through the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and local authorities, we would be happy to assist.

Senator Coffey also raised the question of follow-on surveys. The survey was extremely expensive and was conducted over several years. We considered using a smaller grid, as was done in the UK. Our grid for the survey was 10 sq. km. Within a 10 sq. km grid there can be quite widely varying radon levels. However, we fully understood that ultimately everyone must have his or her house measured. Unfortunately, we have found that even if my house is fine my next door neighbour's may not be. There is no point in doing very detailed surveys; one may as well just encourage people to have measurements carried out. Rather than embarking on a more detailed survey for the whole country — although I see there may be value in doing something like that in Dublin, for example, where there is a very high density — we found that it was better to devote our resources to encouraging and working with various groups to measure radon.

Deputy Tuffy mentioned the question of resources and asked whether we had enough money available for this programme. Members will have seen the budget of the RPII in our annual report. It is relatively small given the broad remit that we have, and we certainly do not have an enormous amount of money to devote to a large national information campaign similar to the Power of One campaign. We did raise in our radon action plan the possibility of having a major information campaign, but the response was that in view of the current financial situation it was not likely to go ahead.

There are many different activities to be carried out. Unfortunately, it is not the case that one avenue can be taken to sort the problem out. We need to work with local authorities but we also need to have information campaigns. We have found that going to an area, having a radon roadshow, staying and talking to people and helping them to understand the issue seems to work. We certainly have good engagement in small areas but obviously there is a whole country out there.

I will ask Dr. Colgan to come back in on the question of new buildings and so on.

Dr. Tony Colgan

I will mention once again the issue of maps. In the RPII there are many staff who share the view that has been expressed that we need more detailed maps. Dr. McGarry has explained why we feel this is not the best thing for now. However, there is an important point: we have never found an extremely high radon level in any area outside the high radon areas. From that point of view we can have a very good estimate of risk even though we would like to have more information.

The national survey was done between 1992 and 1997, and we used the census data of 1999. At that stage we had 1.3 million homes; we now have 1.75 million. The question is what the radon levels are in those homes. This leads on to the new building regulations that came into operation in July 1998. We surveyed new-build homes in Ennis, Tralee and Kilkenny between 2001 and 2003, and our experience was that there were still several homes with radon levels above the national reference level. The overall situation was much better, but the new building regulations on their own did not guarantee that a particular home would be below the reference level. That is also, I am sorry to say, the experience elsewhere.

We feel more ought to be done. In particular, after every new home is occupied it should be measured. There should be some way of ensuring this happens. As of now, however, our experience is that everybody who moves into a new home in which a radon barrier or radon sump has been installed thinks that radon is not an issue, but that is not the case.

With regard to the risks and the costs, we mentioned a figure of 180 deaths per annum. Accidents on the road gave rise to around 400 deaths in 2005. The amount spent on reducing the number of road accidents at that time was €25 million, while the only expenditure on radon was what was spent by the RPII. That would indicate that we may need to spend more time considering this risk area.

The other interesting point, which is linked to the answer I gave on the HSE earlier, is that 90% of those deaths are among people who smoke. The risk from a given radon concentration in one's home is 25 times higher if one also smokes than if one does not smoke, and this is added to the risk from the cigarettes themselves. This is one of the key messages that we have to get across. Radon is a risk, but if one smokes it is a much more serious risk. That is an important point.

The National Radon Forum used the model of Cork County Council and Mallow Town Council and how they dealt with their high radon issues. I found this beneficial. There is a model there that can be rolled out in any local authority. I looked at the delegates that were listed for that day. Of the 58 delegates, only six were from local authorities. I am sure they were all invited — I ask the witnesses to confirm whether they were — and, if so, it proves that they are not engaging with the RPII when it outlines the risks involved, never mind with the public. Six local authority representatives, out of 58 delegates, attended a forum to which they were all invited. That is why there is a role for this committee to recommend, through the Department or otherwise, that local authorities be given a statutory role to deal with this serious issue. Until this is done, I suspect local authorities will not give it the priority it deserves. This is reflected by others who have spoken here. Radon cannot be seen and the public are not talking about it. It is not like the pothole on the road. However, it deserves attention. This was evidence of poor engagement at the RPII's forum.

Dr. Ann McGarry

As I said, we would be supportive of any initiative this committee might take to improve the response from local authorities. Senator Coffey has confirmed that we have a good model for working to support local authorities in addressing radon in their areas. We would certainly support such initiatives.

Were all the local authority representatives invited?

Dr. Ann McGarry

Yes, they were all invited.

One or two other questions were raised which perhaps I could ask my colleagues to address. One was the question of security of radioactive sources and the licences issued by the RPII, and the other was about the marine habits survey.

Dr. Tom Ryan

Deputy Fitzpatrick asked about the 80 locations at which disused radioactive sources are held and the state of security at those locations. I will give some background on this. Today, if an individual or company wants to acquire a radioactive source for use in a legitimate enterprise, it will do so by acquiring a licence from the RPII. Part of that licensing process will be that it puts in place what we call a take-back agreement whereby the supplier of the source enters into an agreement with the user to take back that source after its useful life. Thus, in acquiring the source the waste management issues are dealt with, by and large. That works reasonably well. In the past, however, that was not the case. What has happened is that older enterprises that were using radioactive sources and now no longer need them have nowhere to bring them and must store them on their own sites. We are left with about 80 locations around the country where radioactive sources that are no longer needed by their owners are being held. They are held under licence and part of that licence puts an onus on the holder to provide adequate and appropriate security.

The RPII inspects those facilities regularly. In recent years, particularly last year and, it is planned, this year, we have been working with the Garda Síochána to ensure that the appropriate level of security is in place at those facilities. However, the current situation is not best practice and this is something about which the institute has been advising for many years. Most European countries have a central storage facility where all these sources are brought together and the security and safety aspects are addressed centrally.

A high level interdepartmental group has been established, chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy Michael Kitt. There is active engagement in trying to resolve the issue. We are constantly trying to satisfy ourselves that the security in those facilities is adequate and appropriate. We would like to move away from the current situation and have these sources centralised.

Mr. David Pollard

To assess the exposure to people from activity in the environment, we need to know how much direct radioactivity is present and habit data, such as how much fish a person eats and how much time he or she spends on the beach. We spend much time measuring radioactivity in the environment through our monitoring programmes. Until recently, we used notional data for habits. As we did not have sound scientific basis for that data, last year we carried out an extensive survey which involved interviewing many hundreds of people. It turns out, thankfully, that our guesses were quite good and tallied. The results of that have been very helpful in focussing our monitoring. It also gives the reassurance that the work done to date has been quite sound.

Following Senator Coffey's suggestion, is it agreed the committee writes to each local authority to establish their position on radon gas protection measures? Agreed.

From the report, it seems County Sligo is most affected by radon gas. Will the delegation elaborate on the tables presented concerning the highest indoor radon levels?

Dr. Tony Colgan

The institute has measurements made in approximately 31,000 homes. These tables refer to the 50 locations with the highest levels of radon gas. County Kerry, for example, has 14 locations.

How can remedial works be done on older houses such as one built 20 years ago in which a barrier would be difficult to install?

Dr. Ann McGarry

There are several remediation companies and various remedial methods that can be used to reduce radon levels. Some involve installing a sump after the building of the house, which is very effective. A barrier, as the Deputy pointed out, cannot be installed after the house is built. A radon sump is an effective alternative. It depends on the extent to which the radon level measured is above the reference level of 200 bq/m3.

Does improving ventilation make a difference? Does opening a window, say, make a difference?

Dr. Ann McGarry

Radon comes into a house from the ground. The Irish reference level is 200 bq/m3. If the radon level is slightly above that, obviously increasing the air flow through the house may reduce the radon level. It would not be a guaranteed method, however.

It is often said that opening windows may reduce radon levels but that is not effective. With the past several weeks' weather, one would not encourage people to reduce radon levels by having their windows open.

A long-term effective method of reducing the level is needed. A radon sump is one method and other sophisticated techniques include fans that can be positioned in the attic to blow air through the house. Radon building contractors are familiar with the various means of reducing radon and can advise a householder on the best method for their dwelling.

Are they regulated?

Dr. Ann McGarry

No, they are not regulated, as far as I am aware, and certainly not by the institute. The institute does not have a role in the remedial side of radon gas protection as it does not have expertise in building. Its expertise is in the effects of radiation and in promoting information about radon and encouraging people to remediate and measure.

Concerning remedial measures, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has produced an advice booklet for householders.

Houses are checked for non-compliance with planning permission such as a window on the wrong side of the house but not for the installation of a radon barrier, which comes under planning regulations.

Dr. Ann McGarry

That is correct but we do not have expertise in that area. We undertook surveys in areas before new houses were built and then measured radon levels in the new houses after the sumps and the barriers had been put in. We found some overall reduction in the radon levels but it was not a fix-all solution. We would not have the expertise to check whether the barrier or the sump was properly installed.

Does any agency certify radon barriers? Is there a certification process for contractors who install these barriers?

Dr. Ann McGarry

No, not as far as I know. The radon barrier is certified by the Irish Agrément Board. The installation, however, is not certified. Several years ago, FÁS had several training courses for installers but there was no post-certification per se.

I note County Kerry had an incident with 49,000 bq/m3 recorded when the average should be 200 bq/m3.

Dr. Ann McGarry

Yes.

There is a serious problem there. County Sligo, while not as high, has an average of 3,000 bq/m3.

Dr. Ann McGarry

There are houses in which we have found extraordinary high radon levels.

Should the local authorities in these top 50 locations be notified to make residents aware of these high levels?

Dr. Ann McGarry

The house with the extremely high levels in County Kerry was located in Castleisland. On foot of that finding, we wrote to 2,500 householders in the immediate area informing them of these high levels and encouraging them to measure their own levels. In that case, only 10% to 12% of those contacted followed our advice. It is difficult to get the measure across to people that this is a serious hazard. As Dr. Colgan and I outlined, we feel that working with the health authorities, which the public are used to hearing on health issues, is the best way of getting the message across. We had a campaign with GPs some years ago to encourage awareness of radon gas. As Dr. Colgan noted, people may not hear about radon gas for the first or second time as a result of an information campaign. Such campaigns must be sustained and use channels on which people are used to hearing discussions about health. This will encourage them to address the relevant issues.

The installation of a radon barrier or a sump probably creates a false sense of security. Owners of houses built since the introduction of the regulations 12 or 14 years ago will have a false sense of security because they will believe everything is fine.

Dr. Ann McGarry

The Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland has always stated in its literature and on its website that the installation of a barrier or sump does not provide a guarantee that radon levels will be reduced. One must measure the levels when one moves into the house.

There is no guarantee the sumps or barriers have been correctly installed.

Dr. Ann McGarry

Correct.

Dr. Tony Colgan

If installed correctly, the barrier or sump will work. To take international experience, the British authorities have found that on-site inspection during installation helps a great deal, although it is expensive in terms of staff time. In Scandinavia the authorities have concluded that radon barriers are not guaranteed to work and have not, therefore, been included in their schemes. They have opted for other approaches.

Did the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland find many cases of non-compliance with the regulations when it checked newly built houses? Did many builders ignore the regulations? Does the RPII have information in that regard?

Dr. Tony Colgan

When we asked householders whether a radon sump had been installed, most of them were not certain. Some indicated one had been installed, while others stated one had not been. Subsequently, when we spoke to the Department, it issued advice that the radon sump outlet pipe should always be marked.

What was its advice?

Dr. Tony Colgan

It advised that the outlet pipe should be marked to make clear that it was a radon sump pipe.

The pipe is supposed to come out from the barrier, sump or both to eave chute level.

Dr. Tony Colgan

Some would be at that level, while others would not. In some cases, the pipe has been installed beside one of the main windows of a house. As a result, the gas from the sump enters the house again via the window. These facilities must be properly installed. When installed in new homes, most of them do not have a fan affixed but consist of a pipe protruding from the lower reaches of the house. If installed in a house which is known to have high radon levels, the pipe is often installed high up on the house because it looks better.

One hears that the introduction of new building regulations will result in more energy efficient homes. Is information available to show whether builders are in compliance with building regulations such as those pertaining to radon gas installations?

Dr. Ann McGarry

We are not in a position to answer the Deputy's question because we have not examined issues of that nature.

We will pose that question in our letter to the local authorities.

I have some general questions on emergency preparedness. I realise the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland has a responsibility in the unlikely event that there is a nuclear accident in the United Kingdom. I note from the scenarios presented to us that the institute carried out an exercise late last year based on a hypothetical scenario of an accident on a nuclear submarine. Is the RPII satisfied other State agencies engage it with it properly and give it the serious attention it deserves? For example, did other bodies and agencies, including local authorities and the fire service, respond to the exercises in an adequate fashion when the various scenarios were presented to them?

Radiological material is widely used in the medical field. What reporting procedures are in place in hospitals to ensure radiological systems or machinery are properly managed? Do they report to a higher body? If a degree of slackness is identified in the medical field, which body or agency has the power of sanction or enforcement?

Dr. Ann McGarry

On the Senator's question on emergency preparedness and the level of engagement with other organisations, as members will be aware from reading our reports, the worst possible scenario would be an accident at a nuclear installation in the United Kingdom, the closest country to us. Based on the studies the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland has conducted, it is unlikely such an eventuality would have a major, immediate health impact for people living in Ireland. However, contamination of the environment would occur and restrictions on certain foodstuffs, etc., would be possible.

Our emergency preparedness arrangements include a national emergency plan for nuclear accidents, for which responsibility rests with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. The Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland is a key player in this regard in that it advises the Department on what counter measures would be appropriate in the event that there is an accident. We are also responsible for the first alert in that event. The institute has a network of monitoring stations around the country which continuously monitor the level of radiation in the environment. My colleagues are on an on-call rota which operates 24 hours a day, 365 days of the year. In the event of an accident taking place, we hope the first notification would not be of an increase in radiation levels in Ireland. We have notification arrangements in place with the European Union and the International Atomic Energy Agency in Vienna. We also have bilateral notification arrangements with the United Kingdom and good contacts with our counterparts in France.

The institute has a particular role to play in the national emergency plan for nuclear accidents. In terms of the exercises which have been conducted in recent years, in the past we did not proceed much beyond the first step, which involved assembling the relevant parties at the national emergency co-ordination centre and starting to make decisions on what counter measures were appropriate. In terms of the exercises we conducted in the past year, we have had a number of table top exercises, as it were, with the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food which is a key player from our perspective.

We have had very good engagement with outside bodies. For example, we recently signed a memorandum of understanding with Met Éireann. Weather conditions have an important role in determining how quickly the environment would be contaminated in the event of an accident taking place.

Members will be more familiar with the new major emergency framework being developed for all emergencies, including nuclear incidents. This has helped to bring together the various agencies involved in emergency preparedness and develop synergies on particular responses. In terms of emergency preparedness, while one is never as well prepared as one would like at any given time, the level of resources devoted to dealing with nuclear emergencies and the response thereto has been solid in recent years. The Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland has invested significant efforts in state-of-the-art response systems. However, we are not complacent and have a good level of engagement with other organisations.

I ask Dr. Ryan to address Senator Coffey's question on which body has responsibility in the area of radioactive sources.

Dr. Tom Ryan

The Senator's question was framed in the context of medical facilities. All medical facilities which use ionising radiation, whether a simple X-ray unit or a more sophisticated nuclear medicine facility or linear accelerator, may only do so under licence from the Radiological Protection Institute of Ireland. The licence conditions are tailored for the particular facilities. A sophisticated facility such as a radiotherapy facility which has linear accelerators must be designed in accordance with specifications the institute provides in a design code of practice. All such facilities must comply with the code. The facility will have to be designed so that doses to members of the public and workers will be kept below a level specified in the regulations. There will also be specific reporting requirements in respect of those facilities so that if something goes wrong in an area of a facility which comes within our remit, the authorities at that facility will be obliged to report to us. Provision is also made in this regard in the licence conditions.

We are not involved with regard to the protection of patients. The protection of and clinical decisions relating to patients are governed by separate regulations. The Health Service Executive and the Minister for Health and Children both have roles in this regard.

Dr. Ann McGarry

Dr. Ryan and his colleagues conduct regular inspection of the facilities licensed by the RPII. We are sure, therefore, that the arrangements in place are appropriate. We also have the power to prosecute, if necessary.

Is it correct that a person who wishes to have his or her house checked should write to the RPII, which will then forward a test kit?

Dr. Ann McGarry

Yes.

Is the kit then returned, accompanied by the fee and whatever else is necessary, to the RPII?

Dr. Ann McGarry

Yes.

Is there any other business?

Would it be possible to leave No. 348 of 2009 on the minutes list for the next meeting?

Yes. I thank our guests for attending.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.55 p.m. until 3.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 24 February 2009.
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