JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate

Local Government Management: Discussion with County and City Managers Association.

Chairman

Members will recall our discussions last year with a number of local government associations regarding the Green Paper on local government. Last year we met the Association of Municipal Authorities of Ireland, the Association of County and City Councils and the Local Authority Members Association. As part of our continuing engagement with organisations which manage local government, we are delighted to welcome the County and City Managers Association and I thank the delegation for coming. I welcome the following: Mr. Eddie Sheehy, chairman of the organisation and Wicklow county manager; Mr. Ned Gleeson, vice chairman and Limerick county manager; Mr. John Tierney, Dublin city manager; Mr. Martin Riordan, Cork county manager; Mr. Michael Malone, Kildare county manager; Mr. Hubert Kearns, Sligo county manager; and Ms Anne O'Keeffe, director of the Office for Local Authority Management. I am pleased to see two former county managers from Laois, Mr. Riordan and Mr. Malone, with the group. I did not know they were arriving until this morning. Various members will be familiar with the different managers. I thank the delegation for ensuring such a strong representation of county and city managers.

The format of the meeting will be that there will be a brief presentation by the delegates on their work, which will be followed by a question and answer session. Before we begin, I draw attention to the fact that Members of the Oireachtas have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses of the Oireachtas or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I ask Mr. Sheehy to begin.

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for the invitation to the County and City Managers Association to meet them. We appreciate the important work being done by the committee and its relevance to the sector in which we work. We look forward to an interesting and useful engagement with members and will be happy to respond on any matters on which they may wish to obtain further information. The Chairman has introduced the members of the delegation. The managers comprise what we call the executive of the association and I thank the committee for having us.

In the presentation which will be brief I hope to outline to the committee some of the main areas of interest to members at this time. I will start by outlining what the County and City Managers Association does and how it operates. Essentially, the association is a network of all the county and city managers in the country. It brings together the views of managers as practitioners in the local authority service. In representing these views we are cognisant of the fact that we fit into an overall context in which local government operates. Development of national policy, including in the local government area, is a function of the Oireachtas. These days, in the areas of environment, heritage and local government it is frequently reflective of European Union policy, emerging in directives and transposed into national policy.

Local government has an important place in our democracy and at local level we, as individual managers, have a role and function which takes account of the clear power and role of local councillors, both in relation to their representational role in articulating local needs and issues, and their policy making role which is clearly defined in law. Essentially, local government operates as a partnership at local level and is supported by the recently created structures of strategic policy committees and corporate policy groups. Local elected members have a specific role on important issues, including the formulation of the annual budget and review of development plans. Locally, managers individually work in that context and at national level our association takes account of this reality in the work we do and how we do it.

As to our work, we start from the position that we recognise that each local authority is independent and different. We continue to make the point that while there is a uniform system of local government, each local authority has unique features and faces unique challenges. However, in many areas it is useful and cost-effective to have consistency in the interpretation and implementation of policy. It is in these areas that the County and City Managers Association plays a key role. Members bring their local experiences and concerns to a central forum, enabling a collective view to be formed on how policy is being implemented at local level. This view is then conveyed, as appropriate, to policy makers at national level. Essentially, therefore, the County and City Managers Association forms a collective voice on issues of current interest to local government as they are being experienced on the ground to ensure the issues can be addressed or, at a minimum, brought to the attention of those who can do something about them.

Members will be aware of funding difficulties being faced by local authorities. While these problems are not new, they have been exacerbated in recent times. CCMA members have a great deal of information and insight on how this is playing out across the country. We assemble this information and try to convey its implications accurately at national level. In this connection, as an association our formal position on local government funding has been presented to the Commission on Taxation most recently and previously to other studies on local government, including the Indecon study.

On the manner in which the County and City Managers Association works in practice and how it is structured, we are organised through a number of committees, each focusing on the work of local authorities on the ground. Members will be familiar with the concept of programme groups and will know that each local authority delivers services under a number of agreed headings, for example, housing, water, waste, etc. The CCMA has a committee dealing with each of these programme groups. These committees access the considerable expertise of senior local authority staff and have a regional basis to make sure the experiences of local authorities, large and small, urban and rural, across the country are accessed and relevant information is being fed in on an ongoing basis. Through this structure, we tap into the experience of people working on the ground, difficulties being experienced and good practice being developed. We ensure all of this is co-ordinated and made available, as appropriate, to other parts of the system.

There is tremendous value to be gained from ensuring that the good work and experience from one authority is spread to others to avoid reinventing the wheel and maximise value for money. This is especially important in the current climate. This is really what sharing best practice is about and many relevant examples are available. We can also identify opportunities to share services and expertise among groups of authorities, including regionally. This type of arrangement, namely, an association of managers, is the norm internationally and members may be familiar with our counterparts in the United Kingdom, an organisation known as SOLACE, the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives.

It might be useful to set out some ideas under different headings, the first of which might be "particular issues". Recent examples include the introduction of the joint policing committees and closed circuit television systems, in respect of which the policies were brought forward by the Government. However, how they would play out in practise was discussed in some detail with the CCMA representatives to ensure that as far as possible a practical approach would be adopted.

The topic of water, in terms of compliance and capacity, is one with which Oireachtas Members will be familiar. Ireland is obliged by the European Union under various directives to achieve particular targets on water quality. At the same time demands for water from an economic development and a housing point of view are substantial. Members will be familiar with the scale of investment made and that needs to continue in the years ahead and the impact of this on national Government and local government finances. Local authorities are obliged under the water pricing policy to provide a significant percentage of the funding required for new facilities. In recent years the CCMA has been engaging on the issue to try to ensure the twin objectives of compliance and capacity are addressed in a manner which takes into account national and local priorities.

Other major issues we have been tackling are environment matters, including climate change and waste management generally. In these deliberations we engage with Departments and often with relevant agencies such as the Environmental Protection Agency, the Road Safety Authority, the Health and Safety Authority and the National Roads Authority.

The third strand of our work involves seeking the collective views of managers as practitioners in the service. This is in addition to the consultation which takes place with other groups such as those representing local authority elected members. Examples are where a national commission or group is established by the Government to which we are invited to express a formal representational view. As I mentioned, such examples would relate to local government funding which, as members will be aware, has been the subject of a number of studies during the years. When invited to do so, the CCMA formulates and puts its views on record. These documents are frequently made available on websites, including that of the Commission on Taxation, and are essentially, therefore, in the public domain.

A fourth example of the work we do is the ongoing liaison or linkage with a range of key stakeholders which impact on local government and local authority work. These would be primarily Departments, in the main the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, but increasingly a range of other Departments, including the Departments of Transport, Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Education and Science, Enterprise, Trade and Employment and Justice, Equality and Law Reform. From time to time we are invited to meet senior staff or a Minister from these Departments. Most recently, we met the Tánaiste to discuss the important role of local authorities can and are playing in economic development and job creation. A follow-up meeting has been arranged which will take place in the next couple of weeks.

We also link with and have positive relationships with a number of agencies and representational bodies, including those mentioned and representative business organisations such as the Chambers Ireland and IBEC. While a number of these agencies have effective linkages with elected members and managers at individual local authority level, they believe it is useful for the national perspective to be discussed to supplement the views of their members locally. We also engage, where appropriate, with councillor associations.

On our engagement with Oireachtas Members, members will be aware that at individual local authority level there are in place liaison arrangements which recognise the role of locally elected members and Oireachtas Members. We engage with individual Oireachtas Members on an ongoing basis and a number of more formal meetings are held annually to brief Oireachtas Members on developments in particular local authorities. In addition, at national level the CCMA has been invited to attend and has made submissions to various committees, including on the issues of housing vacancies and the integration of local government development. We also prepare an annual report through the Local Government Management Services Board on the performance of each local authority, which is entitled a service indicators report and which is lodged each year in the Oireachtas Library. The report is of considerable relevance in examining the performance of each local authority under a wide range of headings. We would be interested in hearing from committee members how they think these arrangements are working and how they might be strengthened or structured differently.

I draw the attention of members to some of the issues the CCMA is addressing collectively at national level, including the agenda emerging under the "transforming public service" heading. This follows on from the OECD report on the public service. It has identified a number of priorities, including several of relevance to the local government area. The CCMA is working closely with the structures set up by the Government to take the necessary action.

The merger of the Local Government Management Services Board with the Local Government Computer Service Board is the result of a Government decision and is being implemented. It will be delivered and completed by the end of the year.

Most importantly, we are also working together to deal with the situation arising from the reduction in funding both from central and local resources. This has resulted in our taking action to cut costs and reduce numbers. Between 2008 and 2009, staff numbers in the sector have been reduced by 1,800. It is expected the figures will fall by a further 700 by 2010. In overall terms, at the end of March 2009, staff numbers in local authorities were 150 lower than the figures sanctioned by the Government in 2002. Inevitably, however, the reduction in resources will impact on our capacity to deliver services in the years ahead.

I hope I have covered the areas of interest to members. Local government is a complex and challenging sector. It is a crowded stage, with many agencies working at local level. As managers, we believe in local government and the capacity of local authorities to lead economic development at local level. Local government plays a key role in our democracy that has been strengthened in recent years. We are conscious that in the current difficult financial climate it is extremely important that the concepts of joined-up thinking and inter-agency working are translated into practice. Local authorities have proved themselves to be adaptable and capable of taking on an increased range of services, while maintaining a cap on staff. The County and City Managers Association, through its work, contributes to ensuring the local government system continues to thrive and maximises its input to the economic development of the country.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Sheehy for the presentation.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I welcome the delegation from the County and City Managers Association. I know most of them and have heard of one or two of the others. It is important that we meet because they are the people at the coalface, implementing the programmes, while we try to help them to do it. We are strong supporters of local government while it implements its plans to help the country to escape from its difficulties. It has a major role to play in that regard.

Is there a collective view on local government reform and the Green Paper? Is that available to us? The reference to a directly-elected mayor of Dublin is one reform that crops up. Has that proposal been thought out by managers in terms of the role of the manager vis-à-vis a directly-elected mayor of county or city? If the rash was to spread, how bad would it be from the managers’ perspective in terms of their powers and influence, or is it merely a token position?

I note the managers have documentation and submissions made on the matter of funding of local government. There have been many reports by Indecon and others over the years. I suppose funding is coming down to a matter of survival in many local authority areas. What impact is the borrowing limit having on their work programmes for the current year? They would have made an estimate at the beginning of the year on what they were likely to receive in development levies. Would they have an estimate in the middle of the year on what they are likely to be short in that regard? What are the reductions in expenditure that the county and city authorities are likely to implement over the next couple of weeks to meet the targets in their 2009 Estimate? Those are the three main areas on the funding side.

The presentation mentioned the number of agencies and that there is a crowded pitch. I could not agree more. It is a very crowded pitch. Has the CCMA submitted proposals that would co-ordinate that pitch a little better to achieve a better outcome in the context of the current financial climate?

Planning legislation was published recently. Can CCMA comment on that? In that context, the Minister seems to want to micro-manage all development plans, whether they be local area plans or development plans. He has built into that legislation a significant amount of additional requirements before a development plan is approved. He is leaving it all up to the managers to sort out if the local councillors do not behave in a particular responsible and constructive way and, ultimately, he might end up doing it himself. We have got a bit of the action in the form of the planning Bill published, but we note that the Minister has other proposals that he will bring forward in the context of the passage of the Bill through the Oireachtas. Has CCMA been consulted on that and does it have views on measures in that Bill?

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I will try not to cover the ground covered by Deputy Hogan. I welcome the delegation. It is good to have it here. It is a fine body of men and women. It is fair to say that county managers are doing a good job nationally.

I question the role of Better Local Government as it is currently. I served on a local authority under the old system and I served under the new system. I question the new system Better Local Government. Does it deliver a better service to the communities?

When they speak of the role of the elected members in representation, in development plans and in other statutory areas, is the role of the elected member being eroded in favour of the manager or is CCMA satisfied that the elected members' role is adequate for the job they do?

I would be interested to learn whether the CCMA has a policy on climate change. Different Oireachtas committees have heard from the Environmental Protection Agency on its role. It would appear that the EPA is taking over some of the roles which were formally carried out by the local authorities. Where possible, we should keep these roles local and they should continue to be the role of the local authority rather than have them transferred to the EPA.

The Green Paper on better local government that is currently under way is something to which we all will make a contribution. I wonder at this stage whether the CCMA has discussed it and whether it has any views on it.

We all welcomed the delivery of better infrastructure such as roads over the past number of years but as we move forward into a new era where we speak of issues such as CO2 emissions and climate change, will the role of major road infrastructure in the future be as important? Living in Kildare, I am involved in what I suppose is a suburb of Dublin. Looking to the future, public transport and rail in and around Dublin will be the main mode of transport. It is sad to see in this day and age that when one drives into Dublin any morning each vehicle carries one passenger. That is why we need these major road improvements. If we could get these people onto public transport, it would be more beneficial to all of us and to the environment.

On involvement of communities with local authorities in delivering what is best for the communities, as the CCMA stated in its presentation there are now many agencies and they are operating on the same playing field. Has the role of local communities been eroded as a result?

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Like the other members of the committee, I welcome the CCMA. One of the peculiar aspects of being a Member of the Oireachtas is that when one tables a question to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government about local government matters, he tells one that it is a matter for local authorities. I would see this meeting as an opportunity to pose questions to the CCMA on which we do not necessarily get answered from the Minister on a regular basis.

A number of questions come to mind. In the presentation there is a strong offer of opening up communication lines and looking at existing communication lines between Oireachtas Members and local authority organisations, particularly the city and county managers. This is an area on which I would like to see further improvement. I have found from experience that if I write to local authorities on issues that I cannot get addressed here or in the Dáil, some local authorities give me exemplary answers and others might give an acknowledgement and when I get something back it can be quite vague. There does not seem to be uniformity. There is one particular such issue, which I will use in my conclusion, and which is quite a significant issue to be debated at this meeting.

I am not sure how the CCMA works on setting standards or guidelines across the local authority services. Deputy Hogan mentioned local government reform. The general public, on hearing the word "reform", interpret that as a good but reform is not necessarily good in all occasions. If one was to use the HSE as a case in point of health reform, some would certainly question what type of reform, productivity and positivity came out of that. I would be keen to hear the CCMA's views on the net outcome and benefits of the White Paper on local government reform. Ultimately, is it about addressing executive and representative balances in the council or is it about the citizens of local authorities getting a better service? What we want to achieve from local government reform is a better service that is more efficient, more effective and more accountable to local populations.

For example, there seems to be quite a disparity between different local authorities when it comes to housing inspections. Under existing legislation, every private residential tenancy must be registered with the Private Residential Tenancies Board. A fee is paid to the board as part of that registration process and there is an inspection to carried out by the relevant local authority. However, some of the latter have an appalling record in this regard. I understand some of the councils represented at this meeting carried out no inspections in particular years, although inspection rates have increased recently in some local authority areas. Landlords are paying for this service to be carried out and the money is ring-fenced by the Department as new premises are registered. Why is there still such a poor level of inspection in some areas?

Will the delegates comment on the long delays in turning around local authority housing stock? As a member of local government, this was something I could never understand. A house that came back into the possession of the local authority might not be made available for rent for six months, 12 months or two years. I do not know whether this issue is covered in the service indicators report, but it certainly should be. The process should be quite simple. An engineer or other person designated by the local authority should apply a grading to any premises being returned to the possession of the authority according to whether it requires minimum, moderate or major repair and a timeframe should be assigned, as appropriate, within which it must be returned for renting. Moreover, some penalty should be in place for local authorities which fail to meet these timeframes. A vacant house is an indication that somebody on the housing list is not being accommodated. In addition, rental revenue for the local authority is being lost. In some cases, vacant houses may lead to higher maintenance costs because they attract anti-social behaviour. This is an area in which the management of local government should see significant improvement.

I have spoken to some of the delegates about my concerns regarding the affordable housing scheme. I understand the Minister has distributed a letter of advice to local authority managers as to what should be done with the current stock. I am interested to hear the delegates' views on how these units can be shifted. There is an expectation that 4,000 affordable homes will be vacant by the end of the year. The new incremental purchase scheme that will be introduced under the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, currently going through the Houses, will lead to further difficulties in this regard. A person would have to be certifiably insane to purchase a home under the old affordable housing scheme in advance of implementation of the new incremental purchase scheme. The stock of affordable housing units will inevitably increase in the coming months. The Minister has offered a range of advice, from moving this stock to lease, renting it as social housing or even boarding it up. Have any of the delegates gone back to developers to ask for a reduced price for these units? Are local authorities finding that applicants are unable to obtain mortgage approval to purchase homes at the designated affordable price? I am aware of cases where this is happening.

At the beginning of 2008 the Comptroller and Auditor General's report showed that €1.5 billion was held on account by local authorities throughout the State in respect of development levies. This was a substantial amount, even in the last days of the Celtic tiger. In the current economic climate it is a massive sum. The Minister was subsequently unable to inform me how much money local authorities still held in development levies. This, he said, was a matter for the local authorities. For this reason, I wrote to each of the city and county managers to ascertain how much they had on account and, to be fair, some of them supplied the information requested. Subsequently, a circular was issued to the local authorities stipulating that they were not to spend a single cent of development levies accrued up to 31 December 2008. I understand the County and City Managers Association entered negotiations with either the Department of Finance or the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government or both on the matter.

To return to Deputy Hogan's question, the only development levies local authorities may spend are moneys accrued this year. How much of the money held on account by local authorities are they not permitted to spend? What is the position of the County and City Managers Association on the matter? Did local authorities borrow money on the basis of income they expected to generate from development levies? If that is the case, such loans were unsustainable.

How is the directive contained in the departmental circular impacting on plans made by local authorities in 2008? Approximately €1.5 billion was to be spent on local infrastructure projects. How have these plans been affected? Have projects which have reached early tender stage been abandoned or frozen? Have projects planned in 2008 and scheduled to proceed in 2009 been dropped? Given the role of the County and City Managers Association in negotiations with the Department, for how long does the association expect moneys from development levies to be locked in and local authorities prevented from spending it?

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

Mr. John Tierney, Dublin city manager, will respond to questions on a directly elected mayor for Dublin, the White Paper and so forth. Mr. Michael Malone, Kildare county manager, will address issues raised in the area of transport, roads and climate change, while Mr. Hubert Kearns, Sligo county manager, will address housing issues.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

What I am hearing reminds me of the cart and the horse. If the information had been given before the freeze or an interim arrangement had been put in place, the funds could have been ascertained by the Government and the moneys would not have been frozen. If two thirds of the development levies held on account at the end of 2007 has been spent, it means some €500 million is held on account, which is similar to the figures given of between €200 and €400 million. If we had found out the figure the balancing exercise could have been done.

Mr. Martin Riordan

No, I do not see it in the same way. The general Government borrowing requirement comes from the Department of Finance to parent Departments. It is produced at central government level and does not reflect a lack of knowledge at local level. The impact on the local authority sector was felt on the ground but it was not the case that more information would have yielded a different figure.

Mr. John Tierney

A question was asked on the Green Paper, on which we have made a submission which is available to any member who wants a copy. A question was also asked about directly elected mayors. Our submission advised that empirical evidence shows only mixed success with such systems but the CCMA did not take a definitive position, one way or the other.

Deputy Phil Hogan

There was no collective view on this matter.

Mr. John Tierney

There was not. I am quoted as saying that a directly-elected mayor for Dublin would be a good thing. I have also stressed the importance of the context of how such a system should be introduced. Our collective belief is that reform of local government should be based on form, functions and finance. We should decide what kind of system we want and how we can fund it.

On the Green Paper, there are several issues still to be clarified on how the directly elected mayor proposition is to be implemented, and we await that as part of the White Paper to see how that will be introduced.

There were other questions about reserved and executive functions. The position with the managers is that we are obliged to implement whatever functions are devolved to us by law and that is what we have done over the period. I am sure there will be a bigger debate around this as part of the White Paper and on what the appropriate division of functions should be.

We were asked if the revised system delivered a better service. We must cast our minds back to the past ten years and the considerable pressures that were put on the system. Certainly, the new system played an important part in that, including the strategic policy committee system. I quote the example in Dublin city of when the area committee system was introduced. Local councillors point to that as being one of the most successful modifications introduced.

On the issue of the role of the manager versus the role of member, and whether it is being eroded, obviously, the elected members have a particular view on that. If we look back, I suppose there were reasons decisions were taken. However, the managers do not decide what becomes a reserved function. They must deal with the reality on the ground and take on the particular function.

The CCMA has certainly produced a number of papers on climate change policy. In my case, in Dublin city, we have adopted a climate change policy. Last night we got approval to go to public consultation on an energy action policy as part of that. There is major interest in the issue of the climate change strategy.

On communications, the local authorities have regular meetings with the TDs and Senators which are proving worthwhile. As part of that, many local authorities have a system of questions which are answered as part of that system so that there is always a completely up-to-date system in terms of responding to questions. That initiative has worked well. We are conscious that, since the dual mandate ended, providing reports for TDs and Senators is an important part of the system.

Chairman

There were some transport issues.

Mr. John Tierney

We very much welcomed the fact that there was a greater Dublin transport strategy as part of Transport 21.

Mr. Michael Malone

Further to Mr. Tierney's comments on climate change, I support Deputy Fitzpatrick's comments on the provision of public transport in an effort to alleviate pressures on the traditional road transport systems. The committee will be aware of the policy document on sustainable transport recently launched by the Department of Transport. In essence, that is very much about trying to get people away from the use of cars.

We have interacted with the Department of Transport on this issue directly. Several managers in the mid-east area met the Joint Committee on Transport to discuss the provision of park and ride facilities. The committee had specifically the area of bus transport in mind, but our emphasis has been on park and ride facilities generally for public transport.

Deputy Fitzpatrick will be aware of the work ongoing in Kildare on the enhancement of parking facilities in and around the railway stations. We support the notion of this. As we mentioned to the joint committee, we need early intervention to ensure that the planning stages of it are right. When development plans are being drawn up, the relevant State and regional agencies need to contribute to the process. In other words, we need to make provision at the earliest possible time for buses and all of the other necessary forms of transport.

I agree with the Deputy that one would get them now. The figures for re-letting this year are better. We are conscious of the need to do better. The value of the housing stock needs to be secured and we need to meet the needs of people quickly, but it is important that the house we let is a good product.

Inspections of houses in the private rented sector are carried out, but I can only speak with conviction on the procedures in my local authority area. Most councils have a target number of inspections to do every year which are conducted by the housing technical staff on a schedule of a certain number a month. What we find in our area is that it can be quite labour-intensive work because we target the houses in the poorest condition. Then it is a matter of correspondence and follow-up inspections and court work.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

If I may correct Mr. Kearns, I have read the reports dating from 2004 and very few follow-up inspections are being done. In fact, in situations where inspection failures have taken place, no follow-up inspection has taken place. One of us is reading the report incorrectly. Follow-up inspections are not taking place. One could also be of the view — Mr. Kearns is absolutely correct in this regard — that in some local authority areas, properties are being cherry picked for inspection because they were built in the last three or four years and are thus likely to sail through the inspection process. It is the older properties that should be targeted. I take exception to Mr. Kearns's comment that follow-up inspections are taking place nationally. The figures indicate very few are taking place.

Mr. Hubert Kearns

I cannot speak with conviction on the picture nationally because I do not have those figures. We will certainly relay the Deputy's comments to our colleagues and emphasise to them the importance of this issue to the committee.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Will Mr. Kearns respond to my query about a possible reduction in the purchase price of affordable houses?

Mr. Martin Riordan

I will answer that question. We all recognise that we are at a particular point in the housing market. In many cases, there was initially significant resistance to the delivery of affordable housing from the development sector. We now have the opposite situation where affordable units are rolling in at a rapid pace. There are currently several problems in this area. Fundamentally, the entire market has gone in a certain direction, with the result that affordable units are flowing into local authorities at a rate not previously achieved. There is uncertainty in the market such that potential clients are wondering whether prices will drop, whether the clawback will be removed and whether they will they able to secure a loan.

The mortgage approval aspect is certainly an issue in the sense that many of the clients we have seen in Cork who have shown an interest in purchasing under the affordable housing scheme are finding it difficult to secure finance. Changes in the loan limits were recently circulated to the local authorities, increasing the loan approval to some €220,000, and a process for credit approval for those cases has been initiated. We have yet to see whether that will have an impact, but there is evidence of movement locally. Many people are now opting for a local authority mortgage. The objective is to ensure that solid clients are able to secure the finance they require. The problem currently is that there is an oversupply of stock, but that will smooth itself out in time.

In regard to reducing prices, there is a limit to how far one can go. Reductions in price will have to be offset out of the local authority's coffers. The benchmark we apply is that we seek to set our prices approximately 20% lower than the market. The difficulty is that the market is currently so uncertain. In some cases, we find that while we are providing a good, affordable offering, the developer on site is now offering even less in order to get units sold. The market is very uncertain.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

I am aware that Cork County Council pursued the Part V obligation to the High Court. As a result, the council is in a very difficult situation, having maximised the social and affordable end of development in recent years and built up large stocks. The council has been a victim of its own success and is in particular difficulty. Ultimately, however, these house prices were agreed two years ago in an entirely different market. We all know those prices are entirely irrelevant to the current market. Unless prices in the affordable sector are reduced proportionately, via negotiations with the developers with whom the agreements were made, it will be impossible to sell these units throughout the State. Mortgage approvals will not be granted for overvalued properties. Moreover, the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill which is going through the Oireachtas this week will more or less abolish the clawback provisions and introduce a shared equity arrangement, which will make these properties even more difficult to sell. Have local authorities gone back to the developers with whom prices were agreed 18 months or two years ago and made the case that in the absence of price reductions, the product will not sell?

Mr. Martin Riordan

The price is arrived at based on a formula set out in law in terms of the cost of the site. Therefore, it is difficult to go back to a developer to change the calculation of the site cost. In the case of Cork County Council, there is a benchmark for the cost of providing for a house, and in the case of default, one can go to arbitration. It is difficult to renegotiate costs for projects when an agreement has been entered into 18 months previously. Given that the costs are based on a site cost and a cost to build, it is difficult to see how one would renegotiate the build cost of a project, particularly if the developer does not want to engage in the process. What can happen is that a developer may wish to negotiate the mix of houses or a financial contribution or he or she may default in the matter of the land. This type of engagement is having an impact, certainly in Cork, on the flow of houses that will arrive in 2011, rather than housing in 2009 and 2010. The problem we have experienced at local level is that a logjam arose as a result of the High Court case. As soon as the case was resolved, many developers reduced the number of social and affordable houses but, as the market went the other way they became more than anxious to provide them.

I still believe we are securing good value. People will see there are still good, affordable houses available. The problem has been on the banking side, namely, in obtaining a mortgage to secure a house. The new loan limits should help facilitate genuine clients who wish to purchase an affordable house.

Chairman

Before I suspend proceedings for a division in the House, I will make one comment in response to Mr. Riordan. Last week, a builder informed me that the price of the affordable housing he is selling to the local authority is based on the costs of construction, namely, the costs arising from paying the rates contained in registered employment agreements plus a 15% profit. He stated the affordable houses are being sold to local authorities at a higher price than the market value of the same houses in the same town or estate. Mr. Riordan stated the price paid is based on a formula laid down in legislation as opposed to market value. A problem is coming to the fore because taxpayers will ultimately pay a price for this.

Mr. Martin Riordan

The builder's profit does not have to be 15%.

Chairman

We must suspend for a division in the Dáil.

Sitting suspended at 5 p.m. and resumed at 5.30 p.m.

Chairman

As I indicated, I will call Deputy McCormack, Deputy Scanlon, Senator Coffey and Deputy Tuffy in that order.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

I join in the welcome to the representatives of the city and county managers for this useful exchange of views between the managers' representatives and elected Oireachtas Members.

A number of issues I wished to speak about have been raised but one point that has not been raised so far arises from Mr. Sheehy's reference to engagement with Oireachtas Members. He stated that there is engagement with individual Oireachtas Members on an ongoing basis and more formal meetings are held annually. Mr. Tierney referred to that as well and how successful they are in Dublin.

From my experience, there are one or two token meetings a year with managers, and they are not very fruitful meetings. I am speaking as one with experience, having had the privilege of being a member of two local authorities in Galway for a long number of years.

We got all types of assurances from the then Minister, Deputy Cullen, that Oireachtas Members would continue to have the same rights as councillors when the dual mandate legislation was going through the Dáil abolishing the rights of Oireachtas Members to stand for local authorities. Then that became law and Oireachtas Members had to forgo their places on local authorities.

There are pluses and minuses attached to the abolition of the dual mandate. A minus is that the service I get as an Oireachtas Member from any of the local authorities on which I served is a long way short of the service I got as a councillor. I speak from my point of view and perhaps other members have different experiences. It is nearly impossible for me, as an Oireachtas Member, to deal with my constituency business because my representations to the local authorities are simply ignored. I have spent time on the telephone being put through to answering machines and being referred to other answering machines, leaving a message, and then hearing the line go dead and being forced to go through the entire process again of telephoning the secretary in the office or somebody else to ask when such a person will be in again. Generally the staff do not know when the person concerned will be in again and I do not know when I will telephone again because I never get answers to my calls. It is very frustrating for an Oireachtas Member.

I hope that something good will come of this. This is my first time addressing the managers' association. I do not know what feedback the association gives to its members, but I hope it would bring back the message that Oireachtas Members — I speak in a personal capacity — would be treated with a little more respect than I am treated with by local authorities.

In my early time on the local authorities when I corresponded with a manager I always got my correspondence dealt with by the manager. Sometimes — only sometimes — I now get an acknowledgement that my query has been passed on to the director of service, and I never hear any more about it. I am giving the facts. It is very frustrating for an Oireachtas Member. If I was dealing with my constituents the way I am dealt with by managers, I would not be in my job after the next election.

I do not know what recourse the managers' association has in this matter or whether there is a diplomatic sanction for managers who are not carrying out that part of their duty. I will give an example, and I have the facts and copies of my letters to back up this. It is extremely frustrating.

I spent four months both telephoning and writing to one of the local authorities of which I was a member for a number of years with a question on housing. I got no replies, despite several telephone calls and writing to the manager. The person coming in to me about this problem every Monday in my office was so frustrated in the end that he went to a councillor of the opposite party and within three days that person had information that I had been seeking for two months. I will stand over that anywhere I go, and I have the letters and no evidence of replies to my correspondence and representations. It is nothing short of scandalous the way I, as an Oireachtas Member, am being treated in my dealings with the local authorities. I do not know of the experience of others, who can speak for themselves.

I could have much more to say about this but I will refrain from saying any more. Do the representatives of the city and county managers ever receive complaints like mine or do they ever liaise with their managers to state that it is enshrined in the local government Act which abolished dual membership that Oireachtas Members would be treated as they were, and enjoy the same privileges as councillors because that is certainly not my experience in both of the local authorities of which I was a member for a long number of years?

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

I will be brief because many of the issues I intended to raise have already been raised. Following on from Deputy McCormack, I deal with two local authorities and I have never been treated with anything but the height of respect. We give out and complain from time to time, but it is important to state that we are well treated, although perhaps we do not always get the answers we want.

I thank Mr. Sheehy for his presentation. On listening to it, I was struck that we are all in the same job. We are there to improve our local communities, whether economically, environmentally or whatever, and that is the job we try to do. Many issues have been raised and I will not go back over them. I would like to comment on some of them but time is moving on.

There are a couple of issues that the association may be able to address, one of which is boundary revisions for local elections. I do not know whether the association is consulted in that regard, but I would like to see it have some input into what happens in local boundary situations.

In my own area, following the recent revision in my home town, the local doctor who lives 30 yds out the road must now drive eight miles to a rural polling station to vote. At the other end of the area, the town of Ballisodare finds itself on an island between two other electoral areas and people must drive ten miles to vote in that case. It is ludicrous. I make the point about my area only because I am familiar with it, but it is the same in other areas as well. I wonder whether the association might make some suggestions in that regard so that common sense prevails in boundary revisions.

The other matter relates to An Bord Pleanála. It is a matter I raise at different times and I take this opportunity to raise it. Recently, we had a presentation from the Western Development Commission which put together a substantial plan on the provision of energy in the north west. The plan it put forward shows that we can produce enough energy on the west coast, from Limerick to the top of Donegal, to provide Ireland with enough electricity and also to be in a position to export electricity. That would create many jobs and certainly be of great benefit to the economic life of this country.

People must become realistic about An Bord Pleanála. I am aware of decisions that have been taken by An Bord Pleanála which do not make sense to me, where an inspector from An Bord Pleanála visits a particular site and goes back to recommend either a grant or a refusal, and the board overturns it. These are faceless people who would not even know where the site was never mind anything else. It annoys me considerably.

If we are to go ahead in a green environmental way to provide this energy, we will have to put up windmills in certain places. We cannot have them everywhere but, where possible, they should be allowed to be put up and it should be made that little bit easier. Somebody mentioned earlier that it is important when these people start producing electricity that they are also able to sell it on, and that is another issue.

Deputy Lynch raised the issue of the Private Residential Tenancies Board. We should have that board come before the committee. It is another issue, but I am aware of certain cases where it also needs to lift its game. It does not seem to be working well.

Senator Paudie Coffey

I welcome the delegation and the interaction we are having here today. It is timely. It is important that we continue this type of process so that we can exchange views for the betterment of the people we serve, whether on an executive level or on an elected representative level.

I do not envy the challenges for local authorities. I was a member of a local authority for seven years and I can understand how difficult it is, with the obligations the managers have, to service the counties and cities. Ultimately, we are operating with limited resources and I do not envy councillors and managers trying to balance the books in the coming years. However, those challenges exist and it is something to which we must face up.

I acknowledge the involvement of local authorities in the positive initiatives they have undertaken in recent years. Local authorities have largely moved away from the traditional areas of infrastructure provision. They are now involved in matters such as economic development, tourism development and cultural development. I welcome such development. It enriches our communities and should be continued.

In general, there is good co-operation between executive staff and elected members. I want to focus on some areas about which I have concerns. Mr. Sheehy mentioned in his presentation the unique nature of local authorities. There is a danger that, with all the national policies and regional plans coming down from central government, the unique aspects can be lost where we will end up with a bland local authority model developing. The managers use best practice and duplicate it in other local authority areas and that is to be welcomed, but the unique aspects of local areas and local authorities should be protected. Obviously, that will come. Local councillors will certainly fight to protect any unique aspects, whether it is culture, heritage or whatever. Managers should be aware of such unique aspects and not try to centrally manage everything. I am from County Waterford. We have unique characteristics that other counties will not have. We certainly do not have characteristics that Sligo or elsewhere might have. That needs to be acknowledged at a managerial and executive level so that we do not just take directives from central government and ignore the unique aspect of our areas.

One area I am concerned about is the use of consultants in local authority managerial functions, whether in the production of development plans or reports. I listen to councillors and elected members right around the country and I am told that a significant tranche of all of the budgets is taken up in consultancy fees. I am not too sure whether the same level of expenditure was evident in the past. I am asked on almost a weekly basis how come local authorities cannot manage such matters in-house because they have in-house expertise. The local authorities have qualified engineers and technicians on their staff but yet seem to farm out much of the work involving such expertise on developments plans and the like.

An example of this where county and city managers are involved is the regional waste management plans. I understand that in recent years the regional waste management plans are progressing, but in each of those plans there is an incinerator allowed for in each region. The national strategy states that there is not a need for so many incinerators. Could Mr. Sheehy tell me why somebody does not just stand up and say, "Stop, we are going down a blind alley that is not sustainable? We all are managers of our own individual authorities but we are part of a wider regional strategy that is ultimately not tying in with the national strategy." I seek clarity on the matter. Are those regional plans still progressing and at what level?

In addition, some members have mentioned the interaction of local authorities with the public representatives. Much of it comes down to understanding and attitude. I do not want to be ageist but some of the older staff in local authorities have the utmost respect for public representatives and seem to know how to deal with them, whereas newer staff do not seem to have the same respect. It might be put right by training and communication skills but it is important that staff respond when we have a query. We do not always expect to get the answer we want but we certainly want more than an acknowledgement and vague replies. If we ask a question on behalf of our constituents we want detail and we deserve that. Local authorities should take that into account.

I have looked for meetings with local authority representatives where they have already made the decision and they refuse the meeting as a result. Those instances could be communicated in a better way and there would be more co-operation if that was done. I suggest the delegates take that point on board and discuss it as a body.

I agree with Deputy Ciarán Lynch's point about re-letting vacant houses. The delays in re-letting around the country are a disgrace. They are counterproductive because waiting lists are expanding while houses lie boarded up for months. This is a problem and it needs to be communicated to the Department. The Department should be told that authorities cannot control the situation and need more resources. We have to become more efficient and responsive in the services we provide.

My last point has been a bugbear of mine for some time and relates to the performance-related bonus schemes for managers and directors of services. I do not begrudge anybody a bonus provided the scheme is fully transparent and meets the specified targets. I stand to be corrected but I understand targets are set out at the start of each local authority year for directors of services and managers. If they achieve the targets the county manager signs off on a performance-related payment. That provides an incentive to improve service and implement efficiencies but I have a problem with the lack of transparency because corporate policy groups, mayors and members are not privy to the targets and objectives set. These targets and objectives directly affect the delivery of services to elected members who represent the taxpayer and the constituency. What are the delegates' views on that? It is a source of huge frustration to elected members that they are not made privy to the targets involved. They affect services.

Deputy Joanna Tuffy

I thank the delegation for its presentation. I was not present to hear it but I have read the document. In response to Deputy McCormack's point, I was a councillor on South Dublin County Council and now represent that area in the Oireachtas. It is the council with which I have the most dealings and I get a fairly good response from its staff. The picture is probably mixed and Members from different areas seem to have different experiences of their local authorities. In my experience, councillors work well with officials. The latter often come up with good ideas and both groups work in partnership, as do members of the ruling group with other members. County managers also seem to have a good relationship with councillors. On the other hand there is a perception among politicians, myself included, that county managers work closely behind the scenes with the Minister. That is not good for local democracy because it can work against the interests of local councillors.

The most important issue we face is the economy and, more particularly, jobs. Everybody seems to agree on that and it is reflected in the document. However, some issues need to be emphasised more. The approach should not just be about cuts. The document is explicit that cuts in funding are having a detrimental impact. It states that managers are working together to deal with the situation arising from reductions in funding and cuts in staff. Earlier, it mentions the difficulties faced by local authorities relating to funding and states that, while not new, such difficulties have been exacerbated in recent times. The delegates said they had assembled information and tried to accurately convey the implications of the reductions in funding at national level. They appear to have made a case against funding cuts by highlighting to the Minister how badly services were being affected. Can they give the same information to members of this committee? It would be useful to us as parliamentarians. Is it available publicly?

Has the delegation argued that a different approach be taken? It said the sector had been reduced by 1,800 staff and that there would be a further fall of 700 by 2010. Are those people on the dole? What happened to them? It is not a good thing that people have lost their jobs. In Lucan, where I live, the grass in Esker cemetery is overgrown and it is very distressing for people visiting the graves of deceased relatives. The council said that, because of cutbacks in resources, it could not provide the same level of grass-cutting in cemeteries as before and had to spread the work around. It had been able to employ students in the summer but this year it could not. Surely unemployed people could be put to work on that type of work. What is the role of local government in creating jobs? It could employ extra staff or get involved in community employment schemes or graduate schemes for such work.

When the council spends money it helps local businesses and thus provides an economic stimulus. If it is spent on the right projects, whether they be swimming pools, community centres, parks or playgrounds, it helps to get businesses going. What are the delegates' views on that? Deputy Ciarán Lynch and I prepared a document for the Labour Party for the local elections in which we put a strong emphasis on the role of local government in creating jobs. Some of our ideas were informed by the work being done by county councils such as my own and that of Deputy Lynch. South Dublin County Council has effectively made the county development board a local jobs task force and has worked with FÁS and other agencies to create jobs. Do the county managers act in a political way with the Department? I do not mean that they should act in a party political way but suggest there is a different way of doing things. Instead of cutting jobs and services they can help the economy by doing the opposite.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

I welcome the delegation and apologise for missing the presentation, which I looked forward to hearing. My experience of dealing with my local authority, Cork County Council, is quite different from that of Deputy McCormack. If what he has said is the case it must be very frustrating for him but different authorities operate in different ways. Perhaps that should not be the case but it appears to be so.

I have a good relationship with my county manager and I can meet him at any time by request. He encourages us to request meetings if we have matters to discuss. I find that helpful and it can be helpful to both sides of the House. It must be frustrating for them to have arranged a major programme of work with their officials much of which is now on hold due to lack of funding or cannot be carried out to the extent they had envisaged.

I can see there must be cutbacks if one's budget is limited. However, one thing that worries me where I come from in west Cork is the hedge cutting programme, which might be a small thing but is very important for the areas involved, in which there are narrow roads and people are trying to get from A to B under what are already bad road conditions without having the added difficulty of having the hedgerows coming out on to the road. I cannot speak for other councils but this is a serious issue in my area. The amount of money involved is not huge by any standard. For example, in the Skibbereen council area, it cost between €70,000 and €80,000 to cut the hedges last year, but that has now come down considerably because tenders have been reviewed in the meantime. This is one small thing which is important. It is probably the councils that should bring this forward but this is a significant issue for those who come to my clinics and whom I meet on a regular basis.

Another issue raised earlier was that of houses that are not coming back into the system as fast as they should be when they are vacated. This is something that should be investigated. The manager delegates work and is ultimately responsible. If one delegates work to somebody he or she is the person charged with doing the work. In my experience, there may have been a few occasions on which some official of the council might not get back to me as quickly as I would expect, but I can understand that we all have failures and are only human. By and large, working with Cork County Council since I was elected has not hindered representation. I hope this will continue. The manager we have at the moment — I am not trying to flatter him — has had a positive effect on the structure of Cork County Council since his appointment and I hope this will continue. I will most certainly let him know if it does not.

Chairman

Before we conclude I have a few points to make to the witnesses, to which I ask them to respond. A variety of issues has come up before the committee, one of which is waste collection. The ombudsman did a report on this issue and came before the committee. The essence of the report was that it was about waivers. Some counties are able to operate a satisfactory waiver system, while others do not want to know. The second thing this report showed was that many counties have privatised collections, but where there was a privatised service and a local authority service available within one county, the local authority service tended to be more expensive to the customer. That is the impression I got.

Are the managers satisfied that the people they have brought on to the audit committees — the members elect some and the managers nominate others — are sufficiently strong and independent of the managers to do their job, or are they people from other local bodies that will not say too much to the managers if they feel they have an issue? Are they happy with the strength and independence of the people they have brought on to these committees? The witnesses might comment, if they can, on the voluntary early retirement scheme. Do they have any indication yet of the numbers that will avail of it?

To return to the issue of re-lets, I ask the managers to talk to the Department of Social and Family Affairs as a group. This morning I was told of a case in which the Department is paying rent supplement of €200 a week to a family, which is €10,000 a year. This amount of money would pay for large repairs on a house to get a family in and the council would be in receipt of rent — even if it were only €60 per week, that would be €3,000. The Department is spending €10,000 per annum on rent supplement and the local authority is losing €3,000 per annum on rent foregone when a house is not re-let. That is a loss of €13,000 to the taxpayer, while the cost of repairing the house might be a fraction of that. If the local authorities were paying rent supplement out of their own coffers they would re-let these houses much more quickly. Perhaps it does not bother them so much because the money is coming from the Department of Social and Family Affairs. I ask the managers to talk to the Department in this regard.

One issue that has affected and is currently affecting many counties is the major motorway construction project throughout the length of the country, although this is to be welcomed. Are the witnesses satisfied that they will get sufficient money to repair the damage to local roads once the contractors have the motorways open? I cannot think of any county in which this will not be a burning issue. In the next 12 months many projects will be completed, but I hope this is not at the expense of local roads due to the heavy construction traffic. I know there is a fund for this, but I ask the witnesses to tell us whether there is anything we can do to make progress on this issue. It will be a local issue in all counties affected by the building of new motorways.

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

Mr. Gleeson will answer a number of the questions, but first I must say I am disappointed that Deputy McCormack feels he is getting less of a service than he would expect. This does not seem to be replicated in the experiences of the other members, which I welcome. We regard Oireachtas Members as a valuable resource. They do the same sort of work as us, trying to do the best for their own counties and communities. We do everything possible to support Members: we give them all the documentation and reports that local councillors get; we brief them on specific issues; and we have formal sessions in which I bring in all the directors and we give them updates on what is happening and on the key issues and how they can support us. I am disappointed that Deputy McCormack feels he is not getting a suitable service but equally, I am pleased other members are happy with the service. We will raise this issue with the general bodies and members.

Deputy Tuffy mentioned our contacts with the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Obviously we have significant contact with the Department, which determines national policy while we have the job of translating that into effective action at local level. We give information, data and advice to the Department but our first loyalty is to our counties and the elected members of our local authorities, by whom we are employed. We try to get the balance right.

Senator Coffey spoke about the uniqueness of local authorities. That is what the CCMA is all about. Although there is a uniform system of local government, the challenges and opportunities vary throughout the country whether one is in an urban or rural area or a large or small county. We try to respect and protect the uniqueness of our authorities while talking about issues we have in common and formulating the best possible responses. Where we come up with good individual responses we try to replicate them throughout the country so everybody can adopt good practices.

With regard to the independence of audit committees, the system for appointing outside members is that we must first select people and then discuss our choices with the cathaoirleach of our local authority, following which they must be approved by the elected council. We do not appoint them but we advise the council on suitable people. In Wicklow the three outsiders consisted of two chartered accountants with their own practices and a former senior bank official. They are very independent but, equally, the audit committees do very valuable work; they look at matters with fresh eyes, make recommendations and report to the elected members periodically. It has been a useful innovation in local government and in my experience my committee works independently.

On waste collection and waivers, we have looked at this and feel waivers should be dealt with through the social welfare system; there should be a common approach to this as there is a common approach in the social welfare system to the provision of electricity, television licences and various other facilities. As the Chairman said, cost can vary because waste collection is privatised in some cases and is dealt with by a local authority in other cases. We have made a submission to the ombudsman and this can be made available to the committee. We have asked that the matter be addressed through the social welfare system.

Mr. Ned Gleeson

I am delighted to have the opportunity to address the committee. Many issues have been raised here through quick fire questions. We would be more prepared if we had advance notice of some of the questions as they cover a wide range of local government issues.

I will address the relationship of An Bord Pleanála with local authorities and developers in the context of critical infrastructure, like electricity. We agree with what has been said but everyone knows the planning system is a minefield regarding the steps that have been taken from the start. The key lies in pre-planning discussions and good initial plans. It is necessary to clear the ground before the statutory procedure takes off. In a major infrastructure proposal, like that relating to electricity, this is how things should proceed. We are in consultation with An Bord Pleanála because we hear the same issues being raised relating to delays at that body as this committee hears — the same applies at local council level also. In the good times An Bord Pleanála had a long waiting list. In a recent discussion with the chairman it emerged that at one time there was a backlog of some 4,000 applications. This backlog has been reduced in recent times to around 1,900 due to the economic downturn. An Bord Pleanála is coming to grips with the backlog, though some of the major issues are very complex. It aims to deal with major developments within four months and we have asked that this be strictly adhered to. An Bord Pleanála has referred to new submissions, additional information required and the quality of submissions and this all relates to good pre-planning. We will try to assist that organisation in meeting the four-month deadline for decisions.

We have been directed by the Government to cut the use of consultants by 50% and this has happened, to a large extent. The figures paid to consultants are often misleading because they are required for some of the major projects we undertake. We do our best on major infrastructure and regional offices do much design work for major projects around the country. Members of staff are seconded on a shared, regional basis. However, some major projects are taken on that require expertise which is not available in local authorities such as a tunnel under the River Shannon in my area. Issues relating to compulsory purchase may go before the Supreme Court and we need experts to match opposing experts when we go to defend such cases. Consultants are required and will always be part of the process relating to major infrastructure. However, we can save on consultancy costs relating to the everyday work of local authorities. We have cut back to a large extent. There is a staffing surplus in some areas, particularly engineering, and some smaller jobs will be done in-house. The economy dictates less use of consultants in future.

On employment, Deputy Tuffy asked about cuts and these were achieved through an embargo on recruitment, the termination of contracts and by not filling vacancies. This will impact on non-core services. We spoke earlier of how local government developed a wide remit outside core services during the good economic times. These services related to softer issues that involved the use of staff on a contract basis and it is regrettable that they will be affected by the cut in staff numbers. The Government directive means cuts must be made, given the amount of money available to us.

It was introduced as Mr. Gleeson stated as part of the review body recommendation. When you translate that into what has happened on the ground it means that those staff took the equivalent of a 10% pay cut in 2008 and in the current year if you take account of the pension levy, the rate of deduction for those people is of the order of 17.5% to 19.5%. That is not commonly understood.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Chairman, I apologise, I must leave the meeting.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I do not expect the managers to have the information to hand, but I would be interested to know the amount of the regional and county road budget allocated to health and safety. Travelling around the counties one sees many safety measures being put into effect when road improvements are being done. This is new in recent years where health and safety has become a big issue. Could we get figures for the percentage of the allocation from the Department which was used for health and safety in 2007 and 2008?

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

It is vital that we do all of our work in a way which protects both our employees and the public. I do not have an overall figure for the cost of specific health and safety requirements in projects but it is significant. We have been gearing up our responses under health and safety in recent years and, undoubtedly, they have led to an increase in the cost of the works we do. Equally, from our point of view, as managers, it is vital that everything we do is done as safely as possible and that we avoid injury to either members of our staff or of the public.

The other matter that concerns us is that there has been a very substantial drop in the amount of funding for non-national roads from the State. It creates a very significant gap. With the financial challenges facing us at local level, we have not been in a position to increase the amounts we provided for non-national roads to the extent that we would have liked to. In recent years, we made great inroads into improving our roads when compared with the way they were ten or 15 years ago. It would be a pity to see that huge investment that we have put into non-national roads in recent years undermined by the drop in funding. If it continued for several years, we would be very concerned. The drop is fairly significant.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

On employment by the local authorities, it is a fine aspiration to employ people. Value for money is very important, especially in the current age where there is only a certain capital allowance available to local authorities. Local authorities must look at contracting out more work rather than taking on more people. My friends here might not agree with that. It is a fine aspiration to employ more people, but in the present circumstances we must look at value for money which is very important. I want to make a couple more points on planning, which has been the bane of my life since I went into public life. As the manager would be aware, I do not think we have ever had a meeting to which I did not bring planning problems or issues to him. As there are so many managers here together, I would like to ask how the planners are vetted when they apply for positions in planning and what criteria are set down. It is my experience that they differ greatly, there is no consistency. How are they vetted? Who vets them? Is it the manager, or who goes through the process with them? It is my experience from meeting them from time to time that they differ greatly. One is pro-development and another is anti-development. This is the way I look at it and this is my experience. Perhaps one of the managers would care to comment.

On hedge-cutting, we spoke earlier about health and safety and Deputy Fitzpatrick brought it up. Hedge-cutting is a health and safety issue. I refer not to the national roads where there is plenty of width, but to the local roads where it is a health and safety issue.

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

I welcome Deputy Hogan's suggestion that we should meet on an annual basis. Certainly, we would be delighted to meet the committee in this sort of engagement. Indeed, if the committee was able to signal in advance some of the topics it would like us to discuss, we would be in a position to give more detail.

Chairman

I acknowledge we did not give the CCMA much of a briefing. It was our first such meeting.

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

We are delighted to assist the committee. If there are any particular topics on which the committee wants to engage with us, we would be delighted to do that.

The point made by Deputy Christy O'Sullivan about value for money goes without saying. In the present climate we are determined to provide the best possible value for money to the taxpayer and to the ratepayer and, obviously, we need to drive costs lower, etc. We do not have any ideological preference for either direct labour or going out to contract. It may vary from local authority to local authority and from project to project, but in each case we need to provide the service in a manner which provides the best possible value to the ratepayer and the taxpayer.

On hedge-cutting and the planning system, Mr. Riordan might appropriately respond.

Mr. Martin Riordan

The allocation for hedge-cutting in west Cork is more than adequate. In terms of other parts of the county, as the Deputy will realise, the legal requirement for hedge-cutting lies with the landowners. There is that traditional problem, namely, if it is not done, who does it and how does one recover the costs? The general view we, as a local authority, would have is that hedge-cutting should be done where it is a health and safety issue and the local area engineer would have a certain contingency fund available for cases that arise. It is always important to remember that in the current climate when one is looking for value, hedge-cutting is the responsibility of the landowner and there is a need to get that balance right.

One could spend much time discussing planning and different planners views of planning policy. I would refer back to a previous comment by Senator Coffey, namely, that staff who are a long time in the game understand how the policy is translated on the ground. That may apply in some cases to newly-appointed planners who, I suppose, come out of college with a clear view as to what is the professional view of planning. However, we all realise one starts with a county development plan and then tries to interpret it on the ground.

As I have stated to my council on a number of occasions, the plan which is adopted by the members cannot cover all of the eventualities and a local judgment is what we want at local level on planning issues. Some planners take a while to understand the translation of a policy statement to an implementation on the ground and, as the Deputy will realise, that is always a work in progress. Some people take a view on a matter and others take a different view on it. It is a case of making sure that planners fit into a system and that we have a management structure to ensure we are getting the best results. In Cork we have just gone through the process of adopting the development plan and I got a clear idea of what members felt about its implementation. It is an interactive process and we will improve as we proceed.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

"Interpretation" is the key word and it is also the problem. Planners and councils interpret plans differently and we must work on this.

On hedge cutting, I thought this meeting would conclude without disagreement but that would not be right.

Mr. Martin Riordan

I will look for more money.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

This is another grey area and it is unclear where responsibility lies. I understand hedgerows are the responsibility of farmers when they are on top of or hang over a fence. However, I understand the cutting of verges is the responsibility of county councils. Can Mr. Riordan comment on this?

Mr. Martin Riordan

Normally we would make a judgment at a council meeting having seen the ditch or verge in question.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

We can supply photographic evidence anytime.

Chairman

We will conclude because this meeting started at 3.30 p.m. and has gone on for a few hours. This has been very helpful for the committee. Do the witnesses wish to make final comments?

Mr. Hubert Kearns

Deputy Scanlon asked about the electoral commission. It is independent and we are not involved in its functions, which is probably correct. However, the Deputy rightly identified a major difficulty in Sligo and some local knowledge would have assisted in preventing this. This is not within our domain but we understand the Deputy's point.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

On a point of information, UCD is carrying out a review of the electoral commission on behalf of the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy John Gormley, and submissions must be in by this Friday. It could be recommended, in this regard, that county managers should have an input into the draft stages. There is a mechanism in place.

Chairman

I thank all the members of the delegation for their contributions and assistance. It was a useful meeting and the suggestion of annual meetings is worthwhile, from our perspective. I hope the delegates will also benefit from such an arrangement as it would give them an opportunity to raise issues.

We will deal with the Private Residential Tenancies Board and related topics at the next meeting.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.40 p.m. until 3.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 30 June 2009.

JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate - Tuesday, 23 Jun 2009

Local Government Management: Discussion with County and City Managers Association.

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

Mr. Ciarán Lynch

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

Mr. Martin Riordan

Mr. Martin Riordan

Mr. Martin Riordan

Mr. John Tierney

Mr. John Tierney

Mr. John Tierney

Mr. Michael Malone

Mr. Hubert Kearns

Mr. Hubert Kearns

Mr. Hubert Kearns

Mr. Hubert Kearns

Mr. Martin Riordan

Mr. Martin Riordan

Mr. Martin Riordan

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

Mr. Ned Gleeson

Mr. John Tierney

Mr. John Tierney

Mr. John Tierney

Mr. Ned Gleeson

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

Mr. John Tierney

Mr. John Tierney

Mr. John Tierney

Mr. Martin Riordan

Mr. Michael Malone

Mr. Michael Malone

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

Mr. Martin Riordan

Mr. Martin Riordan

Mr. Martin Riordan

Mr. Hubert Kearns

JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Tuesday, 23 Jun 2009