JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Tuesday, 14 Jul 2009

Burren Life Project: Discussion.

Chairman

We will now deal with item No. 3 on our agenda, which is the BurrenLIFE project. Members will recall a request at last week's meeting by the Burren Life Project to make a presentation to our committee on farming for conservation at the Burren, County Clare. I welcome a delegation from the project including: Dr. Brendan Dunford, project manager, BurrenLIFE; Dr. Sharon Parr, scientific co-ordinator, BurrenLIFE; Mr. Ruairí Ó Conchúir, finance and operations officer; Mr. Seán Regan, environmental programme manager, Teagasc; and Mr. Michael Davoren, chairman, BurrenLIFE, IFA.

The format of our meeting will involve a brief presentation from the representatives on their work, followed by a question and answer session. Before they begin, I remind our visitors that Members of the Oireachtas enjoy legal privilege but the same legal privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members of the committee are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House, or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I now call on Dr. Dunford to proceed.

Dr. Brendan Dunford

I thank the Chairman and other members of the joint committee for inviting us to attend this meeting. It is a great privilege to address this committee. It is particularly nice to be here with a fairly positive story amidst all the doom and gloom. We are happy to be able to present that story today. Our story is a very old one that has been going on for more than 5,000 years, but I will focus on the past ten years during which we have been involved in the genesis of this project. Our project is about the Burren which is a most extraordinary landscape. If members of the committee ever have a chance to visit the area, they will fully appreciate it. While the presentation is about the Burren, it is relevant to each and every constituency because I am talking about farming, the environment and landscape.

I have circulated a two-page sheet which is a summary of what I will talk about. We will be happy to elaborate with answers later on. It is important to start by celebrating what is an extraordinary heritage in this country. We are very blessed. I was lucky enough to be in Kerry last week and Clare the week before during the Willie Clancy week. Our country is steeped in heritage. It is important in terms of our national identity. It is who we are, but it is also important in terms of our economy and the rural economy in particular. We have an important environment and heritage, which are priceless resources. They define who we are and form the social and economic basis of many rural communities.

The Burren is a classic example of this. It is Ireland's flagship heritage landscape and has a unique geology, which members will see in the image. It has a phenomenal archaeological legacy — the richest in the country, if not in Europe — and it contains most of Ireland's native flora and fauna species. It is good to appreciate it there right now. The Burren is a national treasure which goes beyond local, regional or national boundaries; it is an international landscape. I was curious to hear the committee discussing world heritage sites because the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy John Gormley, has publicly proposed that the Burren should be one of our next world heritage sites.

Heritage is an aspect of the Burren which underpins farming, tourism and recreation. The problem is that our heritage and that of the Burren is under grievous threat. In a recent report to the European Commission by the National Parks and Wildlife Service we saw that there is a decline in the conservation status and quality of many of our habitats, including those in the Burren. We can see that every day in the Burren. Mr. Davoren is a farmer in the Burren and every day he sees scrub encroachment on his land, which is eroding his livelihood and the heritage we all appreciate.

According to a survey by Dr. Sharon Parr, about 15% of the Burren is currently covered in scrub and it is increasing at an alarming rate. One sees this in other places as well, including the Comeragh Mountains in County Waterford, with bracken encroachment and under-grazing of mountains. It is also happening in Kerry and Connemara. This is a huge threat to the future of our national heritage and in particular the Burren's unique heritage. We have a legal obligation to address this under the habitats directive, but we also have a moral duty. This is our national heritage and what we are, so we have a moral obligation to look after it. The question is how we do it. There are no easy answers but BurrenLIFE has come as close as possible to finding the solution. When one thinks about it, our countryside is a farmed landscape. The only part of it that is not farmed is that which is under water. If we want to maintain this landscape and the heritage that goes with it, we must maintain the farming systems and the farmers who manage this heritage. They have done so for more than 5,000 years. Designating the landscape as a special area of conservation, SAC, or natural heritage area, NHA, is an important step. However, it is only the first step. Management represents the greater challenge.

As project manager, I am proud to state that the BurrenLIFE project is the leading model in this regard in Ireland. We spent five years devising and testing a blueprint for how farming and conservation might operate side by side in the Burren. It is a five-year project which commenced in 2004 and which is 75% funded by the EU life-nature fund. The balance of funding comes from the project sponsors, the national parks and wildlife service, NPWS, Teagasc and the Burren IFA. This is a unique partnership. The project concludes on 1 September next. I take this opportunity to highlight the strong support we have received from the Department, from the Minister right down to the park rangers, since the inception of the project.

What is so special about BurrenLIFE as a model for the future of our rural landscape? There are a number of key points in this regard. As I drove to Dublin this morning, I listened to "The Pat Kenny Show" on which there was a discussion in respect of the suspension of REPS. Some of the comments from the public were to the effect that, in the context of the environment, REPS has never proven its worth. The approach of BurrenLife is that we must show results and provide value for money. We have a detailed programme of research — led by Dr. Parr and our absent colleague, Dr. James Moran — which involves careful monitoring in order that we can show that our work is effective and provides real value for money.

The other important aspect of the BurrenLIFE project is that it is targeted at the Burren. The Comeragh Mountains, from where Senator Coffey comes, have specific management histories and needs. The position is the same in Connemara and the Burren. A national scheme will not address the needs of these various places. There must be a targeted, focused approach which is built on local knowledge, ideas and skills. This is the approach that we have adopted. We built on the knowledge and skills of local farmers and members can see, in the picture on the left-hand side of page 2 in the document provided, four farmers involved in part-time conservation work. They maintain the walls, remove scrub and keep the Burren as it should be kept. Farmers have been doing this for 6,000 years. However, in the current economic climate, support is required in order that this work might continue. BurrenLIFE offers them support through its research, monitoring, etc. However, further support must be secured.

Most of all, the BurrenLIFE project is very inclusive. It is one of the few projects in the country where the NPWS — which is charged with the conservation of the landscape — farmers and organisations such as Teagasc work hand in hand. It has a massively positive impact and provides a very good model of partnership. The project is drawing to a conclusion but we are extremely proud of what has been achieved through the partnership of farmers, conservationists and ourselves, as researchers. It is the only project of its kind in Ireland. It has been a pioneering project.

The good news is that amid all the genuine doom and gloom relating to the announcement in respect of REPS last week, the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food announced that he is allocating €1 million per annum to BurrenLIFE for the next three years. This money will go to the farmers in the area in order that they might continue their important conservation work. In light of the current economic climate, this represents a huge endorsement of the work of the project, of the farmers and of the partnership during the past five years. It is a major investment in the future of the Burren at a critical juncture for the region and its people. This is extremely positive news.

The story does not end here. Allocating money is one thing, ensuring it is wisely spent is quite another. It is important to ensure that the momentum we have built up during the past five years is maintained. We must also ensure that we have the resources to administer this funding, that it will be allocated in respect of active work on the ground and that detailed monitoring occurs with regard to the impact of such work. In three years time, we want to be in a position to prove that this major allocation of funding has had an impact on our rural environment, on the Burren's heritage and on the incomes of the people who are managing the land. We wish to ask for the support of the committee in ensuring that this takes place. Specifically, we would like the committee to recommend to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government that he should continue to support the work of BurrenLIFE.

Members can see a picture of the Minister, Deputy Gormley, and some of our conservation farmers on the right-hand side of page 2 of the document provided. These individuals are pioneers. The Minister has paid us visits on two occasions in recent years and is a major supporter of the project.

The Burren may be unique, but its problems and those of farmers are not. The loss of farmers from the land in areas along the west coast where there are many SACs, constitutes a huge threat to the future of these areas, the heritage relating to them and the communities who live there. We are of the view that the BurrenLIFE model can work in and be applied to the areas to which I refer and can bring about a real and meaningful impact in respect of the future of these areas and the farmers who live in them. This is a particularly important point with regard to the uncertainty being experienced by these rural communities at present. Uplands, islands and wetlands are some obvious examples of the areas to which I refer. Research work is taking place in respect of high-nature-value farming projects in places such as south Kerry, Connemara, the Aran Islands and the Comeragh Mountains.

I am sure everyone present agrees that Ireland's rich heritage is a dynamic, living resource. We must accommodate this heritage and be accommodated by it. An important point to remember is that people and heritage are not incompatible. In reality, they are inseparable. BurrenLIFE is built on this principle. We cannot manage the landscape without farmers, who are a major asset. Likewise, farmers need our expertise and the support of the NPWS to ensure that the landscape is managed in the best possible way.

BurrenLIFE shows a viable way forward for the Burren and other areas as well. It is an inclusive model which supports and empowers local communities to become the leaders in the conservation of their heritage. It is important that BurrenLIFE succeeds, not just for the Burren but in order to show other areas that there is a future in managing our heritage and the rural landscape. It must be remembered that those involved are paid for doing so. We ask the committee to continue to support us in this important initiative, which relates to both the future of the Burren and that of our national heritage. I thank the committee for receiving us today.

Chairman

I thank Dr. Dunford. I apologise for the fact that, when making introductions earlier, I forgot to mention that we are also joined today by Mr. Ciaran O'Keeffe from the national parks and wildlife service of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Mr. O'Keeffe will also be making a presentation.

Mr. Ciaran O’Keeffe

I am here to provide an endorsement, on the part of the national parks and wildlife service, in respect of the work that has been done during the past ten years. Members will be aware that a major debate is taking place at global level with regard to the loss of biodiversity — the very web of life on Earth. We tend to think of this happening in countries far away from Ireland, such as those in Africa and South America, and involving the clearance of the rain forests, etc. However, the bottom line is that every country has responsibilities so we must think globally and act locally.

One of the key steps that is being taken across the globe is to try to provide spaces in which nature and wildlife will be maintained in coexistence with humankind and its activities. It is common sense that this should be done, but it has been given legislative effect in most countries. The committee will be well aware of the difficulties that can arise in respect of designating such areas. In that context, I may be coming before the committee again next week in order to discuss the issue of bogs.

As members know, we have obligations under EU law to designate certain areas throughout the country which can serve as habitats for different species of flora and fauna. Achieving this is never easy because one is obliged to engage farmers, landowners, agricultural experts, scientists, planners and State agencies in order to drive the process forward and make it work.

The BurrenLIFE is, as Dr. Dunford stated, a singular example of how partnership can succeed in bringing together different objectives, ambitions and perspectives in an area which is outstanding in the context of its cultural and biodiversity value. With the knowledge, stewardship, pride and work of farmers — encouraged and supplemented by the project team, Teagasc and the Department, through the efforts of the national parks and wildlife service — on one hand, and funding from the EU, on the other, the entire project gave rise to a synergy which has worked well and which, I hope, is a fantastic example for the future.

Agri-environment schemes — REPS was mentioned in this regard earlier — are coming under scrutiny in Ireland and across Europe because administrators and politicians are seeking value for money. The BurrenLIFE project is an example of where the work has been carefully thought, costed and monitored and in respect of which targets have been set and delivered upon. It is a good model. The difficulty is that projects of this nature only attract funding from the EU for a particular period. Then the money runs out. The project was 75% funded by the EU and that it will now die a death because that money is gone. There is a perception that one cannot continue with a project — even if it is successful — if funding is no longer being provided.

The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, and the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Smith, have had discussions on the matter and there is a memorandum of agreement between the two Departments in respect of the promotion of farming for conservation measures in the Burren and the development of a programme for the sustainable agricultural management of priority habitats there.

The announcement in recent days by the Minister, Deputy Smith, is fantastic. We are working to try to ensure that funding will carry through, particularly to support the administrative, scientific and agronomist input to the work.

I will offer a final thought because I know members will return to these issues. One of our key problems is that the designation of areas in an effort to protect them makes obvious demands on those who own that land. While everyone wants farming to continue in a sustainable manner, it costs money. There are costs associated with carrying out work like clearing scrub, restoring bogs or whatever. We have discussed this with officials of the European Union, whose response was that we should find the money in the rural development fund. As members are aware, the rural development fund is completely taken up at present with existing costs. Ireland has work to do to reach the stage at which we get value for money on an environmental level to the satisfaction of the European taxpayer, who in general will fund three quarters of this work. This can give us a long-term future in which we do what we wish in respect of retaining our heritage and in respect of satisfying our obligations under EU law.

Chairman

I believe members will allow Deputy Dooley to contribute first, because he is from County Clare. Other members may come in thereafter.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I welcome the delegation and emphasise how impressed I was by their presentation. I have met most of the players over many years and compliment them in this forum on the work they have done. When Dr. Dunford started out in the Burren, he had a difficult job. Some people thought he was crazy and it took a little time for them to be convinced of what he was about. As he now is a national hero, one can see how he has transcended first impressions. He has done so through a close and co-operative approach to working with local farmers, to which I believe Mr. Davoren will give testament. He has done his work in a way that has brought the local community with him. He has shown the farming community the importance of protecting the heritage and landscape there and has convinced some scientists from the outside who initially may have thought that the way to protect the Burren was to take cattle from it and to try to maintain what they had, not recognising that the encroachment of scrub over time would have destroyed a natural asset.

Dr. Dunford has produced an interesting body of work, without which the destruction of a national treasure would have occurred. Consequently, the farming community of County Clare and a much wider group of people should be thankful to Dr. Dunford for his success. When one considers Dr. Dunford's scientific work, his capacity to bring people on board and his capacity to work with Departments and European agencies to fund this project, it constitutes a major achievement, of which he and his team should be proud. As a Clare person, I am delighted he has succeeded to such an extent. However, as Dr. Dunford noted, the Burren project should not be seen in purely local terms. It is an international heritage site that rightly is protected by the Administration and has succeeded in gaining money from Europe. I wish the project well in its endeavours and believe it is well on the way. The funding recently announced by the Minister, Deputy Smith, is very welcome. It is not without strings and other communities are disappointed in respect of REPS but that is for another day. Today we must compliment the Minister on seeing the merits of the proposals Dr. Dunford has put forward.

Moreover, I have spoken to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, about this project several times and given his interest therein, I hope his Department will not be found wanting in ensuring the administrative and scientific component of this important project is adequately funded to ensure its continuation. I wish Dr. Dunford well and compliment him and his team, namely, Mr. Ó Conchúir, Mr. Davoren and Dr. Parr. I also recognise Dr. O'Keeffe's input, as well as that of the many others who work with and around Dr. Dunford. One should recognise this is not simply a job for Dr. Dunford but is his life. His family also are engrossed in it and I see his involvement on a regular basis.

This really is a fantastic project and while it has been well documented, perhaps it has not been documented quite as well as it should have been. The national and international media should pay closer attention to it because it will go down in history as being very far-sighted. Moreover, it will reap significant benefits for many generations to come, which in large part is due to Dr. Dunford and his team. Thanks also are due to the farmers. Coming as I do from a small farm, I am aware of the difficulties associated with getting farmers involved in scientific projects of this nature. They like to continue doing what they do at present and the concept of an environmental approach does not always reflect their desires. However, they have willingly participated in this worthwhile programme and I congratulate all the witnesses.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

I also welcome the deputation before the joint committee and it is great that it now is widely recognised that traditional grazing on the Burren is helpful and not harmful to the area. I am very familiar with the region. I am intrigued by the establishment of the Burren Beef and Lamb Producers Group. From my knowledge of the Burren in years gone by, while it probably was possible to have finished lamb from the Burren, it never was the tradition to have finished beef from the region. One could not produce finished beef from grazing on the Burren without supplementary feeding. How has that obstacle been overcome? When I was involved in the livestock business, the tradition of the Burren was that cattle were grazed there in the winter. Such cattle became highly sought after as store cattle, having grazed outdoors there in the winter. This was done without supplementary feeding, not even hay, as the cattle lived on the natural habitat of the Burren during the winter. In the marts and fairs around Gort and County Clare, such cattle were greatly sought after by farmers from the midlands and the east of Ireland for fattening, because they had such a thriving quality when they went to those parts of the country.

If beef now is being produced from the Burren, it is quite contrary to the practice of 20 or 30 years ago, when store cattle were produced there and winterages as they were called were much sought after. Some larger farmers from elsewhere in the country even rented large areas of the Burren, solely for the purposes of wintering store cattle. When such cattle were transported to the midlands and the east, they thrived much better than did the ordinary cattle that were wintered in other parts of, or by other methods in, the west of Ireland. From that perspective, the Burren played an important role in the entire livestock industry. How does one reconcile the change from such traditional farming to the production of beef from the Burren, which is not consistent with the type of grazing that exists there?

Senator Paudie Coffey

I thank the delegation for attending and for sharing the interesting information members have been given today. Undoubtedly, further challenges both natural and financial lie ahead. That is an ongoing fact of life with which everyone must deal and the witnesses have outlined some facts today. I was impressed by one thing in respect of conservation. To a great extent, the experience has been that whenever conservation has been mentioned, pertaining to buildings, landscapes, SACs or whatever, there automatically is a disconnection between the public and such conservation. Through their project, the witnesses have shown that by proper communication and engagement with communities, involving collaboration with all stakeholders, one can have a conservation project that has involved such stakeholders in a positive sense. From the perspective of the joint committee, there is something to be learned with regard to special areas of conservation, SACs, buildings or otherwise, which is that early engagement with stakeholders and proper communication is vital for any successful conservation project. I compliment our guests, as they have displayed this in a real and tangible way. They have engaged with all stakeholders, from farmers to departmental agencies.

I refer to the BurrenLIFE model. Every conservation area is unique, but how can the information gained from this project transfer to other areas? I am not claiming that they would require money. Dr. Dunford mentioned the Comeragh Mountains, a matter in which I have an interest. However, could knowledge be transferred to, for example, Waterford Institute of Technology, which might have students engaged in a particular field? Without going into the detail derived from the number of years BurrenLIFE has worked on the project, can our guests supply advice to others with an interest in this regard via, for example, their website or seminars? In terms of best practice, how could local authorities learn from BurrenLIFE's engagements?

I agree with BurrenLIFE's approach, that is, people and heritage are inseparable. Conservation is a double-edged sword, namely, preserving what is there but preventing others from enjoying it. Contrary to this, it can be a management of change over time, as it is important that heritage be a living environment. I welcome that the BurrenLIFE project operates in this sense. Have objections to our guests' work been made by An Taisce or other bodies?

Last week, I read an interesting article in the Irish Independent or the Irish Examiner on invading species. It referred to the rhododendron, the grey squirrel and so on. What challenges does the Burren face in this respect and has the matter been researched?

Mr. Davoren is the farmer present. Are farmers happy with the project and that they have been consulted and engaged with well? They are living, working and were probably reared in the area. How have they accepted the project and would they recommend it for other areas?

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I am not as au fait with the Burren as Deputies McCormack and Dooley, but I welcome our guests and congratulate them on their work in conserving it. It is nice to learn that all parties are co-operating with BurrenLIFE in its work and that it has overcome the serious types of opposition that would have been obstacles ten or 20 years ago. Conservationists need a bit of luck on their side and our guests have had that. Long may it continue that the Ministers for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Agriculture, Fisheries and Food see the benefit of BurrenLIFE’s work. I am from County Kildare, which was lucky several years ago when a former Minister, Mr. Patrick Power, saw the benefit of Pollardstown Fen, the source of the Grand Canal and an important national heritage area. It is also important that the Curragh plains will be cultivated.

I congratulate our guests on their work and wish them well. I have not been on the Burren, but I might visit soon. It is nice to be a member of the committee and have people appearing before it praising the Government for its assistance. Only too often we hear the opposite side of the story. This is a good story and I am glad the guests are present.

Deputy Johnny Brady

I apologise for being late, but I was held up at another meeting that I needed to attend. I believed that it would have concluded long ago. I did not hear the presentation either but, having read through some of the literature, I compliment our guests on their marvellous work.

I saw the word "conservation". A conservation farming group has appeared before my committee several times in the past year or two, most recently a few months ago. In my part of County Meath and in counties Westmeath and Kildare, it is traditional now to grow potato crops and the like without ploughing the land six inches deep, although people seem to get the same returns. My committee intends to visit some of those farms later this year to examine the great work being done.

As with Deputy McCormack's tale of his time as a young fellow, the large fatteners and finishers in County Meath used to go to Clare to buy. Getting the right type of cattle was important. Grazing land is of a better quality in Meath than it is in the Burren or the west, although the west has some great land. I was in that part of the country last weekend. All of that aside, the cattle thrived and fattened rapidly. During spring, they came down from the mountains to the good pasture. There were no such things as slatted sheds or meal feeding in those times. This tradition should be kept alive.

The annual newsletter states that, for thousands of years, farmers have grazed livestock on the Burren. Traditionally, they grazed in the lowland fields during the summer and moved up to the hill pastures during the winter, which our guests view as being the key to conservation. This type of farming is challenging and I am sure that the decline in winter grazing is of concern for our guests. What objections are there to small farmers who want to use grazing land in the Burren or other mountainous areas during winter? Like Senator Coffey, I am sure that there are objectors. They are everywhere nowadays. However, tradition should be kept alive.

Sheep numbers are in decline in some mountain areas and they have been prohibited from grazing, but it was fantastic that they used to control the weeds. In Donegal, mountainous areas or the west, ragwort is returning strongly. When as many sheep as a farmer wanted could graze, that type of weed never had the chance to grow because the sheep ate it. Its return is worrying.

I compliment our guests. At some stage, this committee could visit the Burren. It would be a good exercise, as we would learn much. If one is on holidays in County Clare, one drives around the Burren and can see it at first hand, but walking through the Burren would be a good exercise for the committee. Will the Chairman consider this for later this year or early next year?

Chairman

Some of our guests might choose to respond to the comments. A question was addressed to Mr. Davoren specifically.

Dr. Brendan Dunford

I thank members for their feedback, in particular Deputy Dooley for his high praise. I emphasise that I am just one cog in a wheel and that I have had a strong project team for the past five years. One of my colleagues, Dr. James Moran, is missing. It has been a team effort.

I refer Deputy McCormack's points on the Burren Beef and Lamb Producers' Group to my colleague, Ruairí Ó Conchúir, but some families, such as the Brutons with whom everyone is familiar from political circles, still have land on the Burren for store cattle.

I thank Deputy Coffey. Over the project's course, we have placed a strong emphasis on communication because other parts of the country can learn lessons from BurrenLIFE. Regarding transferability, the Comeragh Mountains or Connemara are pastoral landscapes and have been shaped by grazing animals over 5,000 or 6,000 years. If we want to maintain them, their plant life and the habitats, we must continue those grazing systems. BurrenLIFE will have figured out the best ways to graze and feed cattle and to provide them with water and access. These aspects are immediately and obviously transferable to places like the Comeragh Mountains. What is a sustainable number of sheep? How are they fed when they are on the mountains? What resources must one provide? That farming in such areas is no longer viable is the greatest challenge. Farming loses our farmers money all of the time. If we want to keep them farming we must help them with infrastructure and support to provide resources to do it. It is easily transferable. The Heritage Council has a pilot project that includes the Comeragh Mountains that examines the use of the uplands. We would be delighted to offer any support or help we can offer to farming for conservation in areas such as the Comeragh Mountains. Members can contact us at the project office. We have had no objections to the work we do. The only problems in dealing with 20 pilot farms over the past five years were that 100 farmers wanted to get into the scheme but we could only accommodate 20. In the future we hope to accommodate many more. I will refer the comment on invasive species to Dr. Sharon Parr, scientific co-ordinator. Mr. Davoren can comment from the farmers' perspective.

Regarding Deputy Fitzpatrick's welcome proposal to visit the Burren, we would be delighted at this and members will not have a more educational visit in their time in the Houses. They would see how this works on the ground. We have had delegates from all over Europe visit the Burren. They are blown away by the fact that farmers, some of them in their 70s, still climb the mountains and herd cattle. On these mountains, one finds rare species and unusual habitats. It is an extraordinary story that we would love the committee members to hear.

I thank Deputy Brady for his comments and his proposal to visit. We have had no objections to the grazing of the land. The only problem with grazing the winterages is the viability. The biggest challenge is to persuade young farmers that, although this takes time and is a lonely existence, it is worthwhile. We would love to see grazing on the uplands. It is in rapid decline for socioeconomic reasons. We would like to think there will be more of it in the future. I have not spoken to many of the farmers since last week but they all see that farming for conservation can pay and is part of the future. I hope the message will resound far and wide to farmers elsewhere, who might be struggling and who see a glimmer of hope in the BurrenLIFE project.

Mr. Ruairí Ó Conchúir

What Deputy McCormack outlined is still the reality. The 18 members of the Burren Beef and Lamb Producers' Group are finishing cattle on the improved agricultural grasslands on the fringes of the Burren. We are targeting an upper end, niche market such as the Doonbeg golf club and other high end hotels. We also sell directly through farmers markets. It is low level production and a high end market.

The key lessons and successes of the past five years and the degree to which they can be transferred were addressed by Mr. Dunford. The key element is the durability of the partnership created. Mr. Davoren represents the IFA in the Burren and this organisation has been a key partner. Dr. O'Keeffe represents the National Parks and Wildlife Service. The other key partner, not represented today, is Teagasc. The most important partner has been the farmers, who constantly tell us that we have given them a voice. They took control of the project and own it. They have taken responsibility for farming for conservation in the Burren. Trust and partnership has been built between the project team and the farmers. There are many elements in rural and community development and building that trust. The model is recognised by the European Commission. Dr. Micheál Ó Briain has taken many cases against the Government and the State for breaches of various habitat directives. I am sure Dr. O'Keeffe knows him. He regards the type of model developed, where farmers are the key partner, as the blueprint for how this should be done in Ireland and across Europe.

Dr. Sharon Parr

I will address Deputy McCormack's concern. Farming in the Burren has changed. Store cattle are no longer the predominant enterprise. There has been a shift towards suckler cows and suckler beef production. This has had an impact because suckler cows have a continental system in respect of feed requirements. This has changed the pressures on the farmer because one could leave a store animal on the winterage for the winter and visit it every now and then but an animal coming through pregnancy and calving on the winterage produces a range of difficulties that must be addressed by the farmer. Farming for conservation must take into account the fact that one cannot fossilise farming. One must adapt traditional practices to what best meets farming requirements for the day. Suckler beef, with calves going to the weanling trade, is the only practice vaguely viable for Burren farmers.

Regarding invasive species, the grey squirrel has not got across the Shannon but areas of the Burren have problems with giant hogweed and Japanese knotweed. None of these alien invasive species are a problem. There are potential problems in the future with cotoneaster, which is spreading from people's gardens. If they are addressed quickly, this can be managed. The problem in the Burren is with one of our native species, hazel. Most of the scrub we talk about is hazel scrub, a native plant. Dr. Dunford stated that 15% of the Burren is covered in hazel scrub. At least 5-10% of the orchid rich grasslands and limestone pavements are scrub affected. If nothing is done, these will be lost. We are supposed to be keeping these as orchid rich grasslands. We had a few people expressing disquiet at hazel removal. This is where communication is important. It is not a matter of removing all hazel in the Burren. It must be targeted. We are considering opening up paths so that farmers and stock can move around. We must get in early to protect the grasslands. It costs €9,000-€12,000 per hectare to remove hazel. That is not viable but if one can stop it early it costs a fraction of that. We must target these matters. Alien invasives are not an issue but we must recognise that there can be native invasives as well.

Mr. Michael Davoren

I thank the committee for inviting us. It is great to be on this hallowed ground. We never thought we would see the day. We are absolutely thrilled with this programme. A picture paints a thousand words and I hope members of the committee will visit the Burren. It is much easier to explain if members see what is there.

One must look back 15 years to see where we came from. The Burren has evolved over thousands of years, like everywhere else. Farming is a part of that evolution. When SACs came in, everything was frozen in time. During that period, Burren IFA, the local branch of a national organisation, got involved. We saw that the Burren would go to wilderness if it was left frozen. While Dr. O'Keeffe's organisation and Burren IFA locked horns for many years, it was only when Dr. Dunford's study, which earned him a PhD, identified the problems that Burren IFA, Teagasc and the National Parks and Wildlife Service worked together. From a farming point of view, the most important term in all of this is "equal". We came on board as equal partners in the management of the project. That is the first time farmers were recognised as equals. That was very important because farmers could then throw in their tuppence ha'penny worth when sitting around the table. Each farm was planned with the planner and the farmer. A plan for every field on every one of those 20 farms had been worked out and adjusted throughout the five years of the project until the farmer was happy that he could work the plan which delivered species-rich grassland in that field.

In some cases a roadway up the side of a mountain, which would not have been dreamt of ten years ago because of the restrictions, became a necessity and was developed. Previously, not alone could farmers not have afforded to do it but they would not have been allowed to do it even if they had the money. That was a big achievement; now farmers can sit into a four wheel drive or a tractor and get to the cattle in five minutes rather than taking an hour to walk there. The supplementary feed specifically designed to meet the needs of the animals out on the mountain could not be brought to them without a vehicle. These are the nuances that made the project work and why farmers bought into it. It is not that we will earn serious money for the work we do but that we can earn a living doing what our forefathers did.

What Micheál Ó Briain stated is correct and the buy-in from the farmers caught his imagination. Every problem on every mountain and SAC has a solution and the farmer knows it. The scientist's role is to work on how to marry that with the environmental needs of SACs. This is what must be done in every other area. Our model can be used and Burren IFA will inform any other area on how we established it. It is all about negotiation. We must identify the problem and the solution and how that solution can be implemented by the farmer.

Chairman

I have looked at the section on scrub control in the Burren in the newsletter that was circulated. It states that most of the scrub removal was carried out using chainsaws, which was very labour intensive but that there was no other option because vehicles cannot access the area. On most farms the cut stumps were treated which successfully killed many and limited growth in the rest. Small hazel and blackthorn bushes were wiped with the herbicide. Will the witnesses explain whether chemicals were used.

Dr. Sharon Parr

Yes, they are chemical products.

Chairman

Pragmatism versus environmentally friendly weedkillers and herbicides comes into this.

Dr. Sharon Parr

This is called practicality.

Chairman

I thought that.

Dr. Sharon Parr

I never thought I would tell people to use a herbicide because they are always the big baddies.

Chairman

Why has the hazel become such a big problem?

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

It spreads.

Chairman

It has been spreading for thousands of years. Why is it a problem now?

Dr. Sharon Parr

It is multi-factorial and nobody can give a straight answer as to why it is spreading. According to the 1651Book of Survey and Distribution, 2.5% of the high Burren was covered in shrubbery, probably even then mainly hazel scrub. Documentation from immediately prior to the famine refers to scanty growths of hazel. It was then heavily used by the human population as one of the only fuel sources available. A raft of changes has occurred in grazing practices and intensity, people pressure and climate which means almost every year is a mast year for hazel. It has started to return. There is a slow build up over time until it reaches a point at which things just take off and we are at that stage now. Hazel is a brilliant habitat in its own right and the hazel in the Burren is no ordinary hazel, it is an Atlantic hazel woodland which is a very rare habitat. We do not want to get rid of all of it but we want to protect the other rare habitats also. It is a balancing act in those terms.

If hazel in a sheltered spot is cut down but not treated, after 18 months it will be as tall as I am. It grows more after being cut than it does if it is left. It grows 5.5 ft. to 6 ft. in 18 months after being cut; if it was left it might manage 10 cm or 20 cm but it would produce nuts and spread out. Therefore something must be done about the stumps. We examined all of the chemical options available and we are using one of the Roundup products which is glyphosate based. The herbicide glyphosate is not particularly toxic to humans or mammals and does not really build up in the environment. The problem is that what is put into it to make the droplets the right size for spraying is much more toxic than the drug. We have been using the most modern version which has a newer surfactant. It is still more toxic than the glyphosate but it is much better than many of the other products.

We must be very careful in this environment and with the thin soil. Glyphosate binds to soil and breaks down quickly. Products such as Grazon 90, which are far more selective, have a very long half-life and remain in the environment. They wash through into the water and they do not bind. Chemicals are not totally ruled out but the best way forward must be found. Unfortunately it is the more expensive way forward because it is a newer product.

Chairman

The purists probably have a slightly different view on it.

Mr. Michael Davoren

It is also put on with a paintbrush.

Chairman

I understand that it is painted on to the stump after it is cut.

Mr. Michael Davoren

One puts on a very minute amount and it does not involve a sprayer.

Chairman

What happens to the cut hazel? I imagine that in previous times it was burned as firewood. Is it used environmentally or is there a use for it? There is quite an amount of it. Is it allowed to be burned in a fireplace?

Dr. Sharon Parr

If one can get it out, yes.

Chairman

Can one just leave it there?

Dr. Sharon Parr

The problem is the same as that which requires it to be cut with a chainsaw; there is a lack of access.

Chairman

Can it be burnt on site?

Dr. Sharon Parr

In some cases it is and in others it is left as a habitat pile; many invertebrates and fungi use dead wood as a habitat. In some places it is not suitable to burn it because some of the soils in the Burren are quite peaty as they are mainly from vegetation. There are only a couple of centimetres of soil and it could be burned away so the wood must be left to rot down over time. It is collected and piled. One of the advantages of getting in early to the small bushes encroaching on to grassland and wiping them is that it avoids the problem of large amounts of disposal. The way we do it now means we do not tend to take out large amounts. We have been liaising with local people who have the idea of getting in a chipper to where there is vehicle access and chipping the material and using it in community heating schemes, for instance if a school installed a wood chip burner.

Deputy Johnny Brady

Dr. Parr spoke about painting on the herbicide. Is the hazel killed for life or does it come back again? Many of these sprays only last for a period of time. Dr. Parr also stated that the hazel seems to have grown much better in recent years. Does it grow much quicker in moist years than in dry years? That would be natural enough.

Dr. Sharon Parr

It has more to do with lack of cold winters. We are getting much milder winters which means it is leafing a bit earlier, probably producing more nuts and growing later into the back end of the year. This means it has a longer growing season and is putting more nutrients into its own system.

In terms of killing it dead, a proportion of it is killed and one will have to go back. Hazel appears to be a bit of a Lazarus; some which were cut three years ago put up no growth for two growing seasons and have put up a small amount of weak growth this year. It is a continuous job and one must keep going at it. It is like feeding cattle; one cannot feed them once and stop. One cannot cut hay once and stop. One must keep an eye on the hazel. One brings it back to a manageable level and keeps it there. It is a long-term commitment.

Deputy Johnny Brady

There used to be a spray called Brushwood and it was supposed to kill everything for life.

Dr. Sharon Parr

It kills everything.

Deputy Johnny Brady

Is it still around? I never used it but I heard about it.

Dr. Sharon Parr

It has gone. It was a mixture of things.

Chairman

How many hectares are covered by the project? I did not pick that up.

Dr. Brendan Dunford

The entire Burren covers about 70,000 ha., but our project focuses on about 2,500 ha. of that. Ours is a pilot project.

Chairman

Does that affect the farmers?

Dr. Brendan Dunford

It covers 20 farms. They are quite large farms.

Chairman

They are quite large — an average of 100 ha. per farm.

Dr. Brendan Dunford

Yes. Our smallest is about 40 acres and our biggest more than 200 ha., so we have all sizes. The upland areas are extensive and there is good-quality grazing but not much of it. Thus, the farms tend to be quite large.

Scrub cutting is one aspect of what we do. We advocate acting before the scrub becomes a problem. For example, we have come up with a way of feeding cattle which encourages them to eat more grass and saplings so we will not have this problem, which results in a cost of €9,000 to €12,000 per hectare, in a few more years. By investing in farming now we are offsetting that cost for the future. The focus of BurrenLIFE is to work with farmers now as a resource to make sure we do not have intractable problems such as scrub encroachment.

Chairman

Is there any other animal that could be introduced to the area and eat some of the scrub — for example, goats?

Dr. Sharon Parr

Hazel is not very palatable. Most animals will nibble at it. It would be the ultimate masochist that would eat the whole thing. The one time we found wild goats choosing to eat a hazel plant was two days after we had wiped it with a herbicide. This made it more palatable.

Chairman

At least the witnesses are answering our questions.

Deputy Johnny Brady

The Chairman should go down and see it for himself.

Chairman

I have been there.

Deputy Johnny Brady

It was all there, but we never went through it.

Chairman

No, we did not go in as tourists.

Deputy Johnny Brady

That is why I would like to be shown the area and have it explained in detail.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

Is the area covered by BurrenLIFE open to tourists?

Dr. Brendan Dunford

Some of it is privately owned and some is public. For the privately owned land it is at the discretion of the farmer, while the publicly owned land is open to the public. We have demonstration events on all our farms to which we invite the public so they can see the work taking place. We also have signage on some of the farms explaining the work we do.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

What about the interpretive centre in the Burren?

Dr. Brendan Dunford

It never happened. That is a different issue. There is a dearth of information being provided in the Burren for visitors. We are talking about farming for conservation but we must understand that tourism is a major industry in the Burren. Tourists come to see the flowers and the monuments but it is the farmers who keep those monuments and flowers in situ. That is what makes BurrenLIFE so fundamentally important to tourism. On the question of interpretation, we do not really have an interpretive centre, although we have some on-line facilities.

Chairman

One issue that always comes up is insurance. What happens with regard to public liability insurance? Who pays for all this? That is the reason given for stopping most projects. How did BurrenLIFE overcome this?

Mr. Ruairí Ó Conchúir

It is not a concern to us at all. Most farmers have public liability insurance on their own farms. It has not arisen with regard to our demonstration events on State land, where we also work. The key issue, and one of the main reasons we are here today seeking the continued support of the committee, is that all the work outlined by Dr. Parr — scrub removal, enhancement of livestock management facilities, wall work and so on — in which we have been engaged over the past five years is undertaken by farmers or by local workers in the immediate rural economy. We have set up a register of about 110 workers to undertake scrub work, wall work and so on. Out of the initial budget for the pilot phase of €2.2 million, more than 60% has gone directly back either into the farmers' pockets, in payment for work undertaken, or to the contractors on the register of workers. It is showing that conservation is an expensive business, as Dr. Parr outlined, but it is also creating a link between conservation and payment and supporting the rural economy. This is critical and it is how we hope to go forward.

The €3 million announced by the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food last week over the next three years — that is, €1 million per year, starting in October of next year — is in the form of direct payments to farmers for work undertaken. What is not secured — this is one of the reasons we are here seeking the support of the committee — is the operational aspect. A budget has been secured for the roll-out of farming for conservation, which is important, and we are delighted the Minister has committed to this. However, there is as yet no operational budget. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is deeply committed to the project and we hope the committee will support the Minister in securing a budget. With the skeletal staff we have, who work hard, we are talking about €500,000 per year, roughly, as an operational budget. That is the minimum that would see the project rolled out to the 400 farmers of the Burren. Any support the committee can give in this regard would be very welcome.

Chairman

We will formally contact the Minister tomorrow on behalf of the committee requesting that he work on the provision of funding for the operational budget.

We will conclude what has been an interesting and informative meeting. It was beneficial to us as we are not as familiar with the project as the witnesses. We can all see the enthusiasm of those involved, for whom it is not just a job but almost a vocation. I thank the witnesses for appearing before the committee today.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.55 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 21 July 2009.