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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Tuesday, 20 Oct 2009

Nitrates Directive: Discussion.

We welcome officials from three organisations on whose work the 2006 nitrates directive, as amended in 2009, has had an impact. We thank the delegations for attending. We are joined by the following officials from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government: Mr. Damien Allen, principal officer; Mr. Pat Duggan, senior adviser; and Mr. Tim Morris, assistant principal officer. We are also joined by officials from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food: Mr. Paul Dillon, principal officer; and Mr. Jack Nolan, agricultural inspector; Mr. Dara Lynott from the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, and members of the Irish Farmers Association, IFA, Mr. Derek Deane, deputy president; Mr. Pat Smith, general secretary; Mr. Pat Farrell, chairman of the national environment committee; Mr. Colm McDonnell, chairperson of the national green committee; Mr. Tim Cullinan, chairman of the national pigs committee; and Mr. Thomas Ryan, the environment officer.

The format of the meeting involves brief presentations by the officials followed by a question and answer session. Before the officials begin their presentations I draw their attention to the fact that Members of the Oireachtas have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that Members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses of the Oireachtas or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

We will start with the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, followed by a short presentation by the EPA, then the IFA, after which we will open the floor to questions and answers. I call on Mr. Allen to begin.

Mr. Damien Allen

I will give a short presentation on the implementation of the nitrates regulations. I thank the joint committee for this opportunity to discuss the implementation of the European Communities (Good Agricultural Practice for Protection of Waters) Regulations.

To put the regulations in context, the story begins with the nitrates directive. Council directive of 12 December 1991 concerning the protection of waters against pollution caused by nitrates from agricultural sources was adopted in 1991 and has the objective of reducing water pollution caused by nitrates and phosphorus from agricultural sources and preventing further such pollution, with the primary emphasis being on the management of livestock, manures and other fertilisers. The nitrates directive generally requires member states to do the following: monitor and identify waters that are polluted or are liable to pollution from agricultural sources; identify the area or areas to which an action programme should be applied to protect water from such pollution; and develop and implement action programmes to reduce and prevent such pollution in the identified area or areas. Action programmes are to be implemented and updated on a four-year cycle and member states must monitor the effectiveness of the action programmes and report to the EU Commission on progress.

In implementing the nitrates directive, Ireland adopted a whole territory approach rather than the designation of nitrate vulnerable zones. The whole territory approach was deemed the most appropriate as it addressed a wide range of impacts likely to arise from agricultural activities, for example, eutrophication of freshwater and estuaries due to excessive inputs of nitrates or phosphorus, health-related risks due to elevated nitrates in drinking water sources and biological contamination of drinking water sources. The adoption of the whole territory approach was also consistent with the requirements of the water framework directive. Following extensive consultations with interested parties, including the main farming organisations, a nitrates action programme was established in 2005 which was given statutory effect in the European Communities (Good Agricultural Practice for Protection of Waters) Regulations 2005, which is generally known as "the nitrates regulations". The regulations have been amended several times since but the basic model of implementation has remained the same.

Putting in place the nitrates regulations was critical in the context of responding to an ECJ judgment and followed prolonged negotiations with the European Commission. Ireland was the last of the EU 15 member states to make and implement such regulations. Following a comprehensive consultation process conducted by the Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, and Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, revised and consolidated nitrates regulations were made by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in March 2009. These regulations came into effect on 31 March 2009.

The revised regulations were developed by both Departments primarily for two purposes. The first was to provide the legal basis for the operation of a derogation under the nitrates directive granted to Ireland by the European Commission. The second was to provide for strengthened enforcement provisions and better farmyard management as part of a number of measures introduced in response to an adverse ECJ judgment under a related directive, the dangerous substances directive. This significant and wide-ranging judgment dating from 2005 held, inter alia, that agricultural installations are foreseeable sources of discharges, for example, phosphorus, into waters and as such are subject to an authorisation system for the purposes of the dangerous substances directive. Measures were also introduced on foot of this judgment in respect of waste water treatment plants, aquaculture installations, forestry and marine installations.

As an alternative to the introduction of an authorisation system, Ireland argued that the nitrates regulations provide a stricter level of protection for waters. The European Commission was willing to accept this approach, subject to the putting in place of requirements of a more specific nature regarding the enforcement duties assigned to the relevant public authorities and improved farmyard management. Accordingly, the main new features incorporated in the regulations this year were strengthened enforcement powers for local authorities, enhanced cross-reporting arrangements between local authorities and the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food requirements for improved farmyard management and provisions relating to making an application to the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food for a derogation.

In October 2007 the European Commission granted a derogation to Ireland under the nitrates directive which allows farmers, subject to certain conditions, to operate at levels of land spreading of manure — effectively stocking levels — above the standard limit of 170 kg of nitrogen per hectare per annum but not exceeding 250 kg. The derogation is being operated on the ground by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. The 2009 regulations gave legal effect to this arrangement and the requirements imposed by the derogation. This derogation expires on 17 July 2010 and over the coming months Ireland will set in train a process to secure its renewal.

Primary responsibility for implementation of the nitrates regulations, including the carrying out of necessary inspections of farm holdings, has rested with the local authorities since 2005. In carrying out this role, local authorities act under the supervision of the EPA. More than 42,000 routine planned water related environmental inspections were carried out by local authorities in 2007, of which approximately 10% were farm inspections. During 2008, more than 62,000 such inspections took place with a proportionate increase in farm inspections. Inspections on a similar scale are being undertaken during 2009.

The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food also plays an important role in the carrying out of nitrates inspections. First, it has primary responsibility for derogation holdings. Some 3% of derogation holdings are selected annually by the Department for field inspection in line with the terms of the Commission decision of 22 October 2007. Second, the Department carries out cross-compliance inspections against a range of requirements under the single farm payment scheme, one of which relates to nitrates. EU provisions require that 1% of farm holdings be inspected for compliance annually. In 2007, 1,414 nitrates inspections were carried out under full cross-compliance. In 2008, there were 1,652 inspections.

Discussions are ongoing between the Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and local authority representatives to rationalise the existing arrangements and to put in place a robust regime that brings benefits to the State and the farmer. These discussions are progressing well and the aim is that the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food will commence inspections on behalf of local authorities for the purposes of the nitrates regulations early in 2010. In the meantime, the existing arrangements continue to apply.

To assist farmers in meeting the additional requirements of the nitrates regulations, a revised farm waste management scheme was introduced in March 2006 and closed for new applications at the end of 2006. The principal changes to the scheme included the introduction of a standard grant rate of 60%, with 70% being available in counties Cavan, Donegal, Leitrim and Monaghan, for animal housing and slurry storage. The previous standard grant rate for such work was 40%. Other changes include an increase in the maximum eligible investment ceiling from €75,000 to €120,000 per holding and the extension of the scheme to include horses, deer, goats, pigs and poultry and mushroom compost. These sectors were not previously eligible for grant aid under the scheme.

A total of 48,580 applications were received by the closing date and almost 43,000 approvals to commence work issued to farmers under the scheme. The remaining applications were either withdrawn, did not receive full planning permission or are explained by the receipt of multiple applications from a single farmer. Under the terms of the EU state aid approval for the scheme, all work needed to be completed by farmers by the end of 2008.

By the time payments are finished being made under the scheme, the State will have paid out approximately €1 billion in grant aid and farmers will have invested €1 billion. This represents a substantial investment by the State and farmers in terms of upgrading the quality and capacity of storage facilities to meet the standards required by the nitrates regulations.

Good agricultural practice involves the land spreading of slurry as early as practicable in the growing season to maximise the uptake of nutrients by crops and to minimise pollution risks to ground and surface waters. In accordance with the requirements of the nitrates directive, the regulations include provisions regarding periods when the land application of certain types of fertiliser is prohibited. All member states are obliged to operate a closed period. In addition, the regulations prohibit such application at any time of the year when the ground is frozen, waterlogged or heavy rain is forecast.

The nitrates regulations provide for a review by the EPA of progress made in implementing them. The EPA is required to submit a report to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government by 31 December 2009, with the results of the review and with recommendations as to such additional measures, if any, as appear to be necessary to reduce and prevent water pollution from agricultural sources.

In preparing its report the EPA is required to consult the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the co-ordinating local authority in each river basin district and other such persons as it considers appropriate. In accordance with the regulations and following consultation with the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and other interested parties, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government will prepare and publish a new nitrates action programme by 30 June 2010. Any adjustment to the current action programme will require the agreement of the European Commission.

We will be happy to elaborate on any aspect of this statement or any other matter pertaining to the implementation of the nitrates regulations and to answer questions. Officials from both Departments and from the EPA are in attendance for that purpose.

I thank Mr. Allen for the presentation. I invite Mr. Lynott to make an opening statement on behalf of the Environmental Protection Agency.

Mr. Dara Lynott

I thank the committee for its invitation to discuss the nitrates directive. I will be happy to answer questions. If I am unable to provide answers today I will arrange for the relevant information to be forwarded to the committee.

The agency is an independent statutory body, established in 1993 under the Environmental Protection Agency Act, and it has a wide range of responsibilities, including the regulation of large-scale industrial and waste facilities, monitoring and reporting on the state of the environment, overseeing local authorities' environmental responsibilities and co-ordinating environmental research in Ireland in addition to regulating Ireland's greenhouse gas emissions.

Nitrate is a natural constituent of water and as in the case of terrestrial ecosystems, it is one of the primary nutrients required for growing plants. However, artificially high levels in surface and ground waters used as a source of supply constitute a public health risk, due in particular to changes which such levels may induce in the oxygen-carrying ability of the blood haemoglobin in infants. Excess nitrate is also of concern with regard to eutrophication, especially in marine waters where it may act as a growth-limiting nutrient. While phosphorus enrichment is usually the trigger for eutrophication in fresh waters, the greatest effects in terms of excessive plant growth are likely to occur only where nitrate enrichment is also present.

The concentrations of nitrate in river waters have been monitored on a systematic basis in several areas of the country since the late 1970s. The coverage has grown in recent years to encompass all the State. Measurement of nitrate concentrations are now made at 2,000 sampling stations on rivers at a frequency of four to 12 times a year. The water quality of lakes is based on monitoring of 300 water bodies out of an estimated total of 6,000. Currently ground water is sampled twice per annum at 300 locations, at times of high and low levels. The results of water quality monitoring carried out to date show that artificial enhancement of nitrate concentrations have affected many natural waters in the State over the past 25 years. While the risk of this enhancement is, in most cases, not high enough to constitute a health risk in waters abstracted for potable supply, there are some instances, particularly in ground waters, where the nitrate concentrations reach unacceptable levels in this context. In addition, the lower levels of contamination in surface waters may be a factor in promoting eutrophication, especially of estuaries. It is clear that the elevated levels of nitrates are associated with the areas of the State where the most intensive agriculture activity is centred, particularly the east and the south east.

The nitrates regulations provide strengthened statutory support for the protection of waters against pollution from agricultural sources, for instance, by nitrogen and phosphorus. The nitrates regulations also provide for better farmyard management and strengthened enforcement provisions to address the issues raised by the European Court of Justice in relation to Ireland's failure to comply with Directive 76/464/EEC. The new responsibility assigned to the EPA in SI 101 of 2009, is set out in Article 29 of the regulations which states:

The agencies shall, as soon as may be, but no later than 8 April 2009, make recommendations and give directions to a local authority in relation to the monitoring and inspections to be carried out or other measures to be taken by the authority for the purposes of these regulations and may revise such recommendations and directions at such time thereafter.

In accordance with these provisions the EPA issued a direction to local authorities to undertake monitoring, inspections and other measures, including enforcement and reporting, in accordance with six conditions. These six conditions require local authorities to undertake farm inspections, to report incidence of non-compliance to the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food as soon as practicable after they are detected and to take appropriate enforcement actions. These actions include monitoring, follow-up farm inspections, the issuance of warning letters and section notices and pursuant prosecutions. The local authorities are directed to maintain a register of farm and other inspections and provide information annually to the EPA on their enforcement activities.

The existing monitoring programme undertaken as part of the water framework directive is considered appropriate at present having regard to the monitoring of what is specified for the purposes in Article 29.6. This direction is effective from 8 April 2009. I would be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

I thank Mr. Lynott. I call on Mr. Derek Deane to make an opening presentation on behalf of the Irish Farmers Association.

Mr. Derek Deane

I thank the committee for the opportunity to outline the financial, bureaucratic and day-to-day farming challenges which the nitrates regulations have placed on farmers. I introduce my colleagues, Mr. Pat Smith, IFA general secretary, Mr. Pat Farrell, IFA national environmental committee chairman, Mr. Colm McDonnell, IFA national grain commission chairman, Mr. Tim Culinane, IFA national pigs committee chairman, and Mr. Thomas Ryan, environment executive secretary.

The agrifood sector is the largest Irish-owned productive sector, accounting for almost 50% of exports from Irish-owned manufacturing. The sector employs more than 270,000 people, representing one in seven jobs in the country. The gross value added of agriculture and the agrifood sector is €12 billion annually. The IFA estimates that the sector has the ability to deliver an additional €2 billion in exports and 16,000 jobs.

Excessive regulation is impeding the sustainable expansion and further job creation of the industry. The duplication of inspection on the same farm by numerous regulatory authorities is a wanton waste of taxpayers' money and is inexcusable in the current economic climate. This excessive regulation does not benefit the environment but places significant farm management challenges and stress on farm families.

Farmers have shown by their actions that they are committed to protecting the environment and farming in a sustainable manner. This can be seen by the fact that farmers have spent more than €2 billion upgrading and developing farmyards to comply with the requirements of the nitrates regulations. In 2009, farmers will recycle more than 19,000 tonnes of farm plastic, some 92% of lakes are classified as unpolluted, and some 65,300 farmers participate in the rural environment protection scheme, REPS. The substantial investment in storage facilities and farmyard improvements has increased total farm borrowings to more than €5.5 billion, a 67% increase in the past five years. Farm families' incomes have dropped dramatically by 40% in two years and farmers are now struggling to repay these very substantial debts.

The recent closure of the REP scheme has been a major blow to farmers, who often forgo output, yield and earning potential from the land to farm more extensively. It is vital the REP scheme is reopened to the thousands of farmers who show an environmental commitment over and above the norm and have suffered significant income loss because of the ending of the scheme.

The agriculture sector is delivering its requirements under the nitrates regulations and the parent directive, the water framework directive, ahead of many other sectors. For example the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, continues to issue licences to local authorities to operate waste water treatment plants despite the fact that they fail to meet the requirements of the urban waste water treatment directive. Since the introduction of the nitrates regulations in Ireland in 2006, every farmer has had to meet all the requirements of the regulations or face prosecution. However, a more lenient approach seems to be shown to county councils. These same county councils have been identified by the EPA as the most likely cause of the majority of serious and moderate incidence of pollution in Ireland's rivers.

The IFA will outline in greater detail the issues to be addressed and will provide some workable proposals. Ireland's livestock and dairy industry is typically a grass-based production system. In the case of dairying, the grazing season length is approximately 250 days. The most economically efficient means of operating is to turn stock out on grass as early as possible. A survey conducted by Teagasc of 600 dairy farmers supplying milk to Connacht Gold, Glanbia and Kerry, found that the biggest limiting factor to early spring turnout was not grass availability, but soil conditions. This fact comes as no surprise because in recent years rainfall levels during the open period when slurry is permitted to be spread continue to rise.

Members of the joint committee can see the tables. In contrast to this, as can be seen from the table below, rainfall levels during the closed period, when slurry is not permitted to be spread continue to fall.

Weather patterns change on an annual basis. A snapshot of farming on the impermeable gley soils of the Teagasc research farm in Kilmaley, County Clare — which is typical soil type found in Clare, north Kerry, Mayo, Sligo and parts of Donegal — shows that low rainfall levels in May and June 2008 allowed almost full grazing days. Deteriorating weather conditions thereafter led to a significant reduction in evening grazing. However, in 2009, a different pattern is emerging where, because of favourable weather conditions and grass growth during the autumn months, the number of grazing days has increased in the month of October by 44% compared with 2008.

However, because the nitrates regulations require slurry to be spread by 15 October, slurry was spread and good growing grass was spoiled. This grass is an essential and cost-effective fodder. This is a ludicrous situation. The nitrates regulations ignore grass growth rates and the fact that farmers have experienced three unusually wet summers and are facing into severe winter fodder shortages. This grass cannot be grazed again for a further four to six weeks.

Failure to extend the slurry spreading date until the end of October to give farmers the chance to graze off paddocks, represents an economic loss of approximately €35 million to Irish dairy farmers. In autumn, every day extra at grass is worth about €2.10 per cow per day, or €2.3 million a day to the sector.

Slurry is a valuable resource which farmers should be allowed to use and manage based on best environmental and agronomic conditions. The decision not to extend the date when slurry can be spread beyond the deadline in the regulations must be reversed immediately. The cost burden now imposed on farmers who have to house stock because the nitrates regulations have forced them to spread slurry on lush grazing ground is excessive and unworkable, particularly at a time of such significant commodity price pressure.

From an environmental perspective it is illogical to insist that farmers should spread slurry during an open period, when rainfall continues to increase, and not to spread slurry during the closed period, when rainfall has declined and soil and air temperatures are favourable.

The Government has recognised flaws in the regulation by extending the date when slurry could be spread in 2008, while extending the date when fertiliser could be spread this year. These changes acknowledge the fact that desk-based regulations, which ignore good farming practice, are simply unworkable and environmentally unsound.

The regulation is clear that fertilisers cannot be spread when land is waterlogged, flooded or likely to flood, frozen or snow-covered, or heavy rain is forecast within 48 hours. The IFA proposes a move away from this strict closed period definition and replacing it with a sensitive period whereby, based on the best information available from Met Eireann and Teagasc, farmers are permitted to spread during this sensitive period, once the conditions when fertilisers cannot be spread are adhered to and soil and ground conditions are appropriate. The role of Teagasc, as the advisory authority, is essential to provide direction and guidance to farmers in this area.

I will now discuss the duplication of inspections, which is wasteful of taxpayers' money. When the revised nitrates regulations, S.I. 101 of 2009, were introduced earlier this year, the association highlighted the fact that the instrument would lead to the wasteful duplication of inspections by county council and departmental officials. This duplication is in breach of an agreement between the IFA and the then Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Dick Roche. The agreement is that the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food will carry out the inspections. On 22 April the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food issued a statement on the matter in which he confirmed, "Department of Agriculture Inspectors will Undertake Nitrates Regulations Inspections."

In addition, most of the county councils have passed motions calling for an end to this wasteful duplication. Regrettably, to date the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has failed to write to county councils confirming the role of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. Failure to do this has led to confusion. Can we afford these inefficiencies in the delivery of public services at a time when the Government deficit this year is projected to be €21 billion or 13% of GDP? Ireland cannot afford this inefficiency in the delivery of public services. Farmers will not accept this excessive level of bureaucratic gazing. The IFA calls on the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to issue a circular to all local authorities immediately clarifying that the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food will undertake all nitrate regulatory inspections.

The nitrates regulations designate a range of buffer zones upon which manures cannot be spread. This has resulted in significant production loss and asset devaluation for the farmers affected. One example is where a county council exceeded the requirements of the nitrates regulations and imposed a 300 m buffer zone on a farmer's land, affecting almost 11 acres. The combined production loss and asset devaluation in this case amount to almost €70,000. To date the Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the county council have failed to recognise the impact of their decisions on farmers. The IFA proposes that buffer zones be decided based on best scientific and environmental evidence and that a process of engagement commence immediately with landowners and the IFA to agree a package to compensate farmers for the losses incurred. This issue must be addressed as a matter of urgency.

The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is proposing to introduce a groundwater regulation that will include a threshold value for nitrates in water of 37.5 mg/l. This ignores the fact that the nitrates regulations and the EU groundwater directive state the nitrates standard is 50 mg/l. In addition, this proposal ignores the lag time between the introduction of measures in the nitrates regulations and the delivery of outcomes. Research produced by Teagasc has shown a response time of 20 years between the adoption of measures to reduce nitrates and phosphorous loss and improvement in water quality. The nitrates regulations were introduced three years ago and must be given an opportunity to work. It is excessive, premature and unjustified to introduce more stringent threshold values on a farming community which is both economically and environmentally adjusting to the nitrates regulations. The IFA proposes that the threshold values in the groundwater regulations be set at the EU standard of 50 mg/l.

The nitrates regulations reduce the competitiveness of Irish cereal production. I acknowledge and welcome the move by the Minister to bring forward by more than six weeks the ploughing date for spring cereal crops. The green cover requirement-ban on winter ploughing for spring crops under the nitrates directive was eroding Irish grain growers' competitiveness by up to €60 per hectare. It threatened the future viability of grain production, given that Irish grain prices trade at world price levels. Approximately 300,000 hectares of cereals, oilseeds and proteins are grown in Ireland each year. In more than two thirds of the area spring crops are sown. Historically, Irish grain farmers have consistently achieved the highest grain yields across the world. This yield advantage has enabled growers to compete even in the most difficult seasons.

The competitiveness of Irish cereal production has been reduced since the introduction of the nitrates directive. Cultivation and associated mechanisation costs have increased, while restrictions on nutrient use are negatively impacting on crop yields. The IFA proposes that the regulations be reviewed with a view to restoring the competitiveness of our sector.

The unusually wet weather during the past three summers has resulted in widespread varying degrees of compaction. While moving forward the ploughing date is positive, the restrictive nature of the regulations impedes normal work flows and prevents farmers from taking remedial action in the autumn to restore soil structure where compaction has occurred.

The IFA proposes that the regulations be revised to allow for remedial action, such as sub-soiling and-or early ploughing of compacted soils, to be undertaken where needed. Natural weathering of ploughed soils reverses damage due to compaction.

Europe is increasingly moving towards integrated pest control management, which relies heavily on cultural control measures, yet the Irish nitrates regulations promote the abandonment of such practices, for example, breaking the green bridge — green cover. The green cover requirement encourages the proliferation of volunteer cereals, resulting in a high carryover of disease innoculum into the succeeding crop. This not only creates unnecessary disease pressure but also increases the risk of mycotoxins developing in harvested grain. DG Sanco, the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and Teagasc, among others, are advocating the adoption of practices that would reduce the risk of mycotoxins.

The IFA proposes that the regulations are amended to allow for the use of cultural control measures such as the timely destruction of carryover volunteer cereals or green cover.

The current nitrogen recommendations applicable under Irish nitrates regulations, based on standard yields, will lead to the rapid depletion of organic soil nitrogen and result in reduced yields as time progresses, particularly in a continuous cereal situation.

In the United Kingdom, for instance, growers can apply 220 kg of organic N based on a standard yield of 8 tonnes per hectare, which is approximately 27.5 kg of nitrogen per tonne of grain. However, Irish growers are limited to 190 kg of nitrogen per hectare based on a higher standard yield of 9 tonnes per hectare, which is 21.1 kg per tonne of grain produced.

The comparison for spring cereals is even starker in that UK farmers can apply 150 kg per hectare based on a standard yield of 5.5 tonnes per hectare, which is approximately 27.3 kg of nitrogen per tonne of grain. The Irish figure is 135 kg based on a higher standard yield of 7.5 tonnes per hectare, which is 18 kg of nitrogen per tonne of grain produced.

IFA proposes that the current nitrogen application rates be raised to match total crop requirements, as current rates result in depletion of organic N, reduced crop yields and competitiveness.

On the nitrate vulnerable zones in the UK compared to Ireland, the UK recently revised legislation and implemented rules commencing on 1 January 2009 applying to nitrate vulnerable zones. There are major differences between the Irish and UK rules.

First, no green cover is required over the winter. Second, there is no closed period for ploughing. The UK Environment Agency actively promotes winter ploughing and sub-soiling, particularly where compaction is a problem, to minimise nutrient loss and soil erosion. Third, nitrogen recommendations for the main crops are considerably higher under the UK legislation at lower yield levels. Members should refer to Table 1. Fourth, the UK system is more flexible as it takes account of practical situations, for example, incorporation of straw initially leads to higher N requirement in the first two years. Ireland does not recognise this increased need and that will slow down the move to min till. Fifth, nitrogen availability from organic manures is calculated at higher levels than in the UK. That discourages and restricts the use of organic manures on tillage land in Ireland and reduces their attractiveness. Sixth, where organic manures are applied in consecutive years, the N index for that tillage crop moves from Index 1 to Index 2. That does not apply in the UK.

On the pig and poultry sectors, several anomalies in the regulations have already been brought to the attention of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food through the intensive livestock working group set up in October 2006. However, I wish to highlight a number of concerns to the sector. The transitional arrangements have been of benefit to pig and poultry farmers since the nitrates regulations were amended to include them in 2006. These amendments arose because it was accepted that unless some provision was made, pig and poultry farming would be decimated and a valuable source of fertiliser would be lost. In the current regulation, a customer farmer is not entitled to avail of transitional arrangements for phosphorus if any chemical phosphorus is applied to his land. This is unnecessarily restrictive.

It is vital the transitional arrangements for organic manure are extended beyond the December 2010 deadline considering the number of jobs that are dependent on the industry, the economic pressure that has been put on the sector in the past three years and the value of pig manure as an organic manure.

Maximum fertilisation rates for nitrogen and phosphorus are the limits above which farmers are not allowed spread organic fertilisers. The Department should not seek to replace this system as proposed in the farmers' handbook.

No amendment has been made on the issue of soil nitrogen indexing. The use of the word "dressings" lacks clarity in the amount used. The build of organic nitrogen from liquid manure versus farmyard manure or solid manure from residual nitrogen loading is not justified. Research work is being carried out on that in Oak Park. The number of years that should elapse before the land is rated under index 2 when liquid pig manure is applied should be extended beyond the current two-year period. The method of calculating the contribution of phosphorus from stored livestock manure must also be amended to eliminate the disadvantage the present method creates for farmers in zones B and C.

The nitrates regulations have had a profound impact on the way farmers manage their holdings. The regulations have put extreme financial burdens on farmers, who have spent in excess of €2 billion in complying with the nitrates regulations.

The recent closure of the REP scheme has been a major blow to farmers, who often forgo output, yield and earning potential from the land to farm more extensively. It is vitally important that REPS is re-opened to the thousands of farmers who show an environmental commitment over and above the norm.

The nitrates regulations are flawed in that they remove the ability of the farmer to manage the farm based on best environmental and farming conditions. Instead, a farmer must adhere to illogical calendar farming requirements, have lands sterilised and have the threat of a duplication of inspections imposed. In addition, the pig and poultry sector have significant concerns, in particular with the extension of the phosphorus transitional arrangements.

I seek the committee's support to make this legislation more workable for Irish farming and to end the excessive costs, duplication and bureaucratic burden associated with this regulation.

Thank you, Mr. Deane, for a comprehensive presentation. I welcome members of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

I welcome the delegations to the discussion on this important subject. Does Mr. Allen from the Department accept Mr. Deane's view that the EU groundwater directive's nitrates standard is 50 milligram per litre rather than the one adopted of 37.5 milligram per litre?

Mr. Damien Allen

We know about this because the IFA contacted us about it. On Friday next we will have a meeting with Teagasc and next week we will meet the IFA. The figure in question is not a threshold. It is a rather technical area and I will ask my colleague, Mr. Pat Duggan, to expand on it.

Mr. Pat Duggan

This is a requirement that arises out of the new groundwater directive. It is a technical issue. There certainly has not been a proposal to change the standard of 50 mg per litre which already exists for drinking water. That standard is already set out in the new groundwater directive and will be incorporated into the groundwater regulations. The figure of 37.5 mg is a threshold value. There is a technical difference between the terms "standard" and "threshold value" and it appears that the issue arises out of a misunderstanding of the consultation document which issued a number of months ago. The threshold value in the groundwater directive and the forthcoming regulations refers to a trigger value which is built into the requirements of the water framework directive and recognises the connection between ground and surface water. Essentially, when the threshold value is reached, the draft groundwater regulations trigger further investigation into whether actual damage is being done to associated surface waters or protected areas. It is not a standard as such and the investigation will focus on whether, for example, water leaving a groundwater body contains phosphorous or nitrogen and how much this contributes to an associated estuary, river or protected area. In many instances, there will be no effect and the threshold value will mean nothing. If there is an impact on the receptor from the threshold value, real damage will have been done.

How does Mr. Duggan's interpretation of these matters compare with our neighbours in Northern Ireland and the UK?

Mr. Pat Duggan

They are identical. Similar values have been used in the UK, Northern Ireland and Scotland. We are aware of that because we have worked on the regulations in association with our counterparts. The values vary slightly because the nature of groundwater hydrogeology in England is different from that of Scotland and the south but the overall approach is the same. Ultimately, it comes down to the question of whether real damage is being done by water leaving a groundwater body and entering a receptor. That measure is not determined by the figure of 37.5 mg but by the actual damage done to the receptor.

Does Mr. Duggan accept that the definition of "groundwater quality" is a moveable feast? His interpretation may differ from that of the European Commission. Can an agreement be reached?

Mr. Pat Duggan

There is an element of agreement. It depends on the groundwater body and the associated surface body, which could be a river or lake, and will vary according to the amount of flow and the degree of connectedness. It will ultimately be determined by the proportion of, for example, a river's flow which comes from groundwater. That is a question of physical composition, in other words, the way of nature. However, there is agreement on how the effect is to be measured. In the case of an associated river, for example, standards have already been established in regulations introduced in the summer on surface water quality. Ultimately, the impact on an associated river or lake will be measured in terms of breaches of these standards. These are a real measure of the damage done to a receptor.

Are Mr. Duggan's standards the same as those of other member states?

Mr. Pat Duggan

In respect of surface waters, the standards have been developed across the EU. Again, they are complex and technical standards for a different range of elements. The ultimate measure is biological quality. These standards and approaches have been calibrated across the EU and consistency and similar threshold values have been determined. There is, therefore, consistency on that basis.

Chemical quality standards, which have been laid down for surface waters, have been established at European Union level. We are doing nothing more than implementing common EU standards. Standards for phosphorous and nitrogen are simply established. They vary nationally and among water bodies. They have been established on the basis of the relationship between biological quality and physical chemical quality. A consistent approach has been taken in this matter.

Stakeholders have been consulted in drawing up river basin management programmes or action plans, which will be proposed for adoption in local government in the coming months. What contribution will these programmes make to the standards about which Mr. Duggan spoke? Would the best way to achieve these objectives not be to incentivise people by re-introducing a REPS scheme? As public representatives, we know that incentivisation is often part of the process of ensuring one meets objectives and standards.

Mr. Pat Duggan

I will make a few comments on the river basin planning. A standard is a standard. It is a scientific fact and if a standard is breached, a certain amount of damage will be done. This is pure science rather than a socioeconomic consideration or other issue to be considered in river basin planning. There is provision within the river basin planning process to defer objectives and set less stringent objectives based on precise criteria set out in the water framework directive. Mechanisms are available to take these types of steps, which essentially involve setting targets as opposed to standards. What one aims to achieve in terms of meeting these standards is a somewhat different issue from the issue of standards as such.

In terms of what is required to deliver the standards this relates to the programmes of measures. The structure of the water framework directive and what we are legally obliged to deliver in the river basin plans is full compliance with basic measures, including the nitrates directive, urban wastewater treatment directive, IPPC directive, and other existing EU legislation. In the context of measures for river basin plans under the water framework directive we have no option under EU law but to fully implement the nitrates directive along with a range of other basic measures.

The Deputy referred to an option in the event of basic measures not being sufficient to deliver the water quality objectives within the timeframe that has been set. This is where flexibility arises. It is open to member states to consider what are the most effective, cost-efficient and possibly socially fair methods of delivering the objectives. However, this is a different discussion from the discussion of standards.

I have a couple of questions for Mr. Lynott. What studies has the Environmental Protection Agency carried out on the main causes of damage to the quality of groundwater? Who are the main culprits? Local authorities have been cited. Does Mr. Lynott have figures on who does most damage to groundwater? Is it farmers, industry, local authorities or householders?

Mr. Dara Lynott

The EPA's state of the environment report published last year contains specific information on this matter. The report divides river quality into "seriously polluted", "moderately polluted" and "slightly polluted". I refer the Deputy to the chapter on river quality which details every stretch of river that is significantly polluted and sets out the source of the pollution. I also refer him to page 97 which features a list of seriously polluted river locations and their length. It sets out the municipal, agricultural and industrial sources of the pollution as well as other discharges which may be unknown. This information is produced in reports and on the back of comprehensive sampling done by our chemists and biologists who, when taking samples from rivers, note if there are point sources or diffuse sources nearby. In general, the difficulty with nitrates is that while they occur naturally, any elevated levels are anthropogenic or man-made. If there is no obvious source point nearby and it is an agricultural area, the conclusion is drawn, particularly in the south east, that agriculture is the main source of nitrates. We have very good figures on the production of nitrates, and agriculture is one of the main producers of nitrates and phosphates in the environment.

Have those figures been updated since 2008 in any study?

Mr. Dara Lynott

Yes. In the next month we will produce an environmental indicators of water quality report, which is a year-on-year addition of the data. We can present that to the committee.

Please send it to the committee.

Mr. Dara Lynott

Yes.

There is much concentration today on the nitrates directive as it relates to agriculture. However, there are standards of water quality which the agency imposes on local authorities. On the one hand the EPA has jurisdiction in terms of imposing its will on local authorities but, on the other hand, the local authorities require the Minister to provide them with the money to meet the EPA objectives. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government tells the local authorities they must do X to achieve certain ground water objectives and gives the EPA additional powers to enforce that, but he does not have enough money to give to the local authorities to do this. What level of investment is required to meet the water framework directive under the water and waste water services investment programme up to 2015? The State does not have an open-ended cheque book at present. I am aware that a review is being carried out with a view to prioritising; but have we any chance of complying with the water framework directive based on the present level of investment?

Mr. Dara Lynott

There are two main schemes we are trying to deal with for meeting the water framework directives. One is the licensing of waste water treatment plants. The agency was given that authority in 2007 for the first time, and we are in the process of licensing the larger waste water treatment plants. The licensing of waste water treatment plants is the main response to the dangerous substances directive, in which the EU Commission has asked member states to regulate the input of dangerous substances into the environment. Waste water treatment plants are one of the major inputs of dangerous substances, and phosphorous is treated as a dangerous substance. However, the Commission also realised a significant investment was required in waste water treatment here. Most of the investment to date has been in the coastal areas, where there are the biggest populations. That reflects the urban waste water treatment plant directive which basically said that the larger the plant, the sooner were the standards required to be implemented in it.

We have an opportunity now with the water services investment programme, which is now reaching the end of its cycle in 2009 and is being re-prioritised for the coming years. We have worked on two risk-based approaches that we discuss with the Department. One is the remedial action list on drinking waters. On the basis of health, that is having regard to e.coli, cryptosporidium and materials such as THMs which are potentially carcinogenic, we have put together a list of 339 facilities which we believe are the first priority or the highest risk that must be dealt with under the water services investment programme. In addition, as part of our work with the Department, we are putting together a risk based approach to investment in waste water treatment plants. Those risks will be on the basis of where we indicate that waste water treatment plants are causing significant pollution in rivers, breaches of the bathing water directive or breaches of ground water standards associated with abstractions, with a view to the money that is available going to the highest risk area.

This is a case of using a sledge-hammer to break a nut. The EPA and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government are culpable, as is the Minister by giving the agency additional powers that cannot be used. He is charging the agency with responsibility to carry out a job that it cannot do because the Minister does not have the money to give to the agency to ensure it meets its obligations by cleaning up the municipal waste water treatment plants that have been a scandal for so long. That also applies to sites, about which Mr. Lynott is well aware, that are potential contaminants of groundwater and require remediation. In my opinion, agriculture highlights the problem in microcosm. It is a very small part of the overall problem with which the State must come to terms in order that we might meet our obligations under the water framework directive. The State has decided to elevate the importance of dealing with one sector but is failing miserably to deal with between 75% and 80% of the difficulties in other sectors.

I ask our guests to bear this in mind when reaching conclusions regarding the level of water quality required. I also ask them to indicate that the latter will not be over and above that which applies in Britain or other European Union member states.

Mr. Dara Lynott

We have no discretion in respect of the standards. The State will be obliged to make a choice with regard to whether it should meet a standard set by the European Commission and whether it should make the financial investment appropriate to deal with that challenge. We are stating that the source of pollution in our rivers is split 50-50 between municipal and agriculture. There is going to have to be a prioritisation of the moneys available. If such moneys do not prove sufficient in the context of meeting the standard, the State will be obliged to decide whether it should breach the standard set or invest the appropriate amount.

The EPA's role is to ensure the licensing is done in accordance with the relevant regulations, to publish reports that indicate where the standard is either being met or not being met and to suggest possibilities for either accelerating current activities or initiating different activities to meet the standard.

Local authorities are covering their backsides in respect of the 2015 deadline. When they become subject to litigation, they want it to be seen that they have done the best they can within the resources available to them. The fact that they cannot obtain resources at present is an obvious factor which must be taken into account.

I wish to inquire with regard to land sterilisation and buffer zones around public water sources. What is the exact position in this regard? Some local authorities indicate that such zones should run up to 300 m while others state that it should be 200 m. Does the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food or some other Department take account of the losses incurred by farmers whose lands are sterilised and who cannot use such lands for the purposes for which they were intended? People incur huge losses as a result of the creation of buffer zones. It is fine for our guests to state that a buffer zone of 300 m should apply in respect of a particular water source, but that amount of land might constitute most of a man's farm. Who is going to compensate farmers for the losses they incur in this regard? Has there been any discussion of this matter within the Department?

It was stated that farmers are the major polluters. Farmers and the Government have spent billions on farm waste management. However, our guests state that they remain the biggest culprits in respect of pollution. Are they satisfied that their figures are in order?

Mr. Dara Lynott

The nitrates regulations actually state that land spreading should not be done within 200 m of a well. The EPA did not make the decision in this regard. If a local authority wants to move a buffer zone closer, it is required to consult the EPA. We are starting to receive requests from local authorities in this regard. The EPA has indicated that 200 m is far too great a size.

In some cases the buffer zones are above 200 m.

Mr. Dara Lynott

It is a matter for the local authority to protect its water supply. If nitrates flow straight into an abstraction well, the main health issue that arises is blue baby syndrome. A local authority that is trying to protect the health of citizens who are drinking water obviously takes whatever precautions it can. However, the main issue in respect of determining the length is the quality of the well. If a well is well sealed, one almost can go right up to it. The guidance the agency now is giving to local authorities indicates that one can go much closer than 200 m. It is open to local authorities to come to the agency to request that advice. I cannot deal with the issue of compensation as it is not within my remit.

Can Mr. Lynott direct me in the right direction?

Mr. Dara Lynott

Yes. We are going much closer to wells on the basis of science and the guidance that now is available to local authorities.

As for our facts, we have been monitoring the environment since the 1970s and are satisfied in respect of the extant statistics. However, the Deputy has raised an interesting point, namely, that significant investment has been made by the farming community in farm storage. The benefits of so doing will be seen this year, next year and the year after. This ties into some of the aforementioned research whereby the likes of Teagasc must tell us how long it will be before the environment benefits from this massive investment in farm storage. Were slurries to be held over the winter period, it would have a massive effect on the quality of our groundwaters, particularly in respect of nitrates. Science is telling us that if nitrates are spread in winter periods when nothing to take them is growing on the land, they go straight to surface waters. Given that €2 billion will have been invested in this area this year, last year and next year, we should see dramatic results in this regard.

Mr. Damien Allen

I wish to add briefly to that response. As for the second point made by Deputy Christy O'Sullivan, the nitrates directive must be seen as one of a suite of directives, the implementation of which the State must do anyway. There are 11 such directives, including the nitrates directive, the urban wastewater treatment directive, the habitats directive and the birds directive. Some of these directives are 20 to 30 years old and the nitrates directive itself dates from 1991. As the name suggests, the aforementioned water framework directive simply is a framework directive and the key means by which the objectives of that directive will be met will be through the implementation of each of those constituent directives. While the farming sector certainly has its role to play under the nitrates directive, so does the local authority sector in respect of urban wastewater treatment plants and so on. A range of legislation applies right across the sectors.

Mr. Pat Duggan

I wish to make one further comment on this issue. There has been much discussion at this meeting about slurry, buffer zones and similar issues. The issue of time and when the benefits of this work will be visible was raised by both Deputies Hogan and Christy O'Sullivan. However, this also must be considered within a slightly wider context that goes beyond the issue of managing slurry. In Ireland, over many years, we have applied excessive nutrients to land. There was a reason for this and if one goes back 20 or 30 years, soil nutrient levels were deficient and agricultural output was not being achieved. However, we then overshot in this regard in some places and this now is being corrected by the nitrates regulations, which basically pertain to nutrients planning.

However, recovery in this regard will take a number of years. Soil nutrient levels are excessive in many areas of the country and even where corrective action is taken and proper nutrient management is put in place immediately, it could still take a considerable number of years to see improvements in water quality. This is a technical aspect to this subject and it is where the river basin planning process comes in. That is where work must be done and where we are doing work at present. Mr. Allen mentioned the need for input from Teagasc. We have asked the local authorities to bring into the finalisation of river basin plans a technical review by Teagasc, which will consider such aspects, including recovery aspects and the reduction of nutrient levels in soils that will delay delivery of the environmental objectives for a number of years in some places. All these factors must be built into the process. A real consideration of all the practical aspects of this must feed into this process.

This leads me to the point about farming by calendar and how ridiculous it is. Unlike other European countries, where there are long periods of wet weather or dry weather, weather changes by the day in Ireland. It is crazy that farmers cannot spread slurry after 15 October even if the weather is perfect for it. Our climate changes and farmers cannot be expected to spread slurry over a given period because the weather may not suit this.

Mr. Pat Smith

I support Deputy O'Sullivan and would like an answer to the question of who pays for these sterilised zones. The farmer cannot afford to pay and this question has not been answered. Regarding excessive nutrients, long before the nitrates directive was imposed farmers were reducing the amount of phosphorus and nitrogen used on farms. One of the problems we will have very soon is that because of the cost, the competitive nature of farming and the financial pressure farming is under, we will have an undersupply of nutrients and production will be hit.

The point has been made that if a point source of pollution cannot be found, farming is assumed to be the cause. That is guilt without proof and it must be addressed because it is very unfair. It is a startling statement. Farmers are assumed to be guilty unless another source can be found. That is a serious issue that must be addressed.

Some have referred to the difference between 37.5 mg/l and 50 mg/l as if it is no problem. There is a debate going on today on the radio about 80 mg per 100 ml and 50 mg per 100 ml. The Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is telling farmers that the level is 50 mg/l but that farmers will be pulled in at 37.5 mg/l and investigated about whether they have had enough drink. It is crazy. The level of 50 mg/l is where it should be at and the idea of 37.5 mg/l should be taken off the agenda.

Mr. Derek Deane

I refer to the source of pollution. The report shows that of serious pollution incidents, some 21% comes from the municipal side, 9% from agriculture and 4% from industry. Agricultural pollution is substantially lower than pollution from the municipal side.

The south east is the most populated part of the country when one compares the south east and the south. Agriculture is more predominant there but the south east is clearly more populated.

Regarding discharges from county councils and sewage plants, in 2006 and 2007, non-compliance rates by very large secondary waste water treatment plants that dealt with 15,000 people or more was almost 50%, increasing by 16% over the previous reporting period. There is a substantial increase in the problems with larger population areas and linking all of them to agriculture is unfair and excessive at this point.

Mr. Allen was asked a direct question by Mr. Smith about compensation for loss of production.

Mr. Damien Allen

Any issue of compensation must be considered in the context of the situation in similar circumstances where earning potential is affected by a particular regulation or course of action. It is under consideration by the Department.

Is it that the principle has been agreed but specific cases have not been dealt with?

Mr. Damien Allen

I am not even stating the principle has been agreed. I am stating the issue has been brought to the attention of the Department.

Mr. Allen is stating the door is open. Will Mr. Lynott tell the committee what municipal facilities have been closed to date owing to pollution?

Mr. Dara Lynott

I wish to refute something Mr. Pat Smith of the IFA stated. The EPA does not, in not finding a point source, blame farmers. Taking that view is naive in the extreme.

It sounded like that was what Mr. Lynott stated.

Mr. Dara Lynott

I will clarify the matter. I refer the IFA to page 83 of our state of the environment report. The information we compile is on the basis of chemists and biologists walking the river. The main clue used in determining the source of pollution is the level of ammonia. Where there are very high levels of ammonia, it suggests point sources because of the massive quantities detected. Where there are low levels of ammonia, a combination of the observations of biologists and chemists on the river bank and the main activity in the area forms the basis of the opinion. I would not like to have it recorded that an exclusionary view is taken by the EPA.

Has the EPA closed any local authority facility? What has been done with offending local authorities?

Mr. Dara Lynott

Local authorities are given a direction to correct. Under the legislation, this is what the EPA is able to do. We have issued directions to Galway County Council with regard to the Clifden wastewater treatment plant which was found to be directly causing an issue with regard to bathing water. We prosecuted the county council on the basis of a direction we had issued because it had not taken the identified actions to correct. We have not closed down any facility because we do not have the ability to do so under the law. We have the ability to issue a direction and monitor compliance with it.

When a farmer is found guilty of an offence under paragraph 26 of the 2009 statutory instrument, he or she can be fined €5,000 and if the matter is not dealt with, he or she can be fined up to €500,000. There are fines for farmers but polite letters to local authorities.

Mr. Dara Lynott

No, there are fines for local authorities also. Prosecutions were taken last year against Galway County Council. In my opening statement I said enforcement actions taken against farmers included letters indicating the issue, appropriate time periods to allow for these to be corrected, warning letters, additional monitoring, additional inspections and, only as a last recourse, prosecution.

Mr. Colm McDonnell

I will come back to Mr. Duggan's comment that we have common EU standards. We may have common EU standards for groundwater but we do not have common EU regulations. We have pointed out that the regulation for nitrate allowances on tillage crops is completely different in Great Britain and parts of Europe from what it is in Ireland. We have the longest growing season in Europe where most harvests are finished before we start. Our crops are still growing at that stage and it takes more nitrates to keep them going. However, we have the lowest standards. Even the amounts of organic fertilisers allowed are much lower than in Great Britain. We are very uncompetitive because of the regulations and it is beginning to be felt in agriculture. If this continues, we will have to cease producing grain crops in Ireland because we will not be able to compete. This issue needs to be addressed urgently.

I will try to be brief because I know many other members want to contribute. I want to give a general view on the water framework directive.

Mr. Lynott referred to the 50-50 breakdown between the municipal and agricultural sectors. The agriculture sector is very productive, contributing significantly to our economy, whereas the municipal exists and services our economy. The State needs to get its priorities in order. This is an easy decision for the State as Mr. Lynott said. It should target the municipal sector first and get its own house in order. We all know towns and villages where sewage is going directly into water courses. I and others around this table can cite them. That contributes significantly to pollution.

Another issue is the legacy of landfills run by our municipal authorities and private industrial sites. I live almost next door to one in Portlaw. Deputy Ferris would know it well. There is a 3 acre contaminated site within 80 m of the River Clodagh where the water intake for Waterford city is located. That has been lying there for more than 30 years and nobody, neither the local authority nor the EPA, is addressing it. In effect people are turning a blind eye to it. This contamination leaches directly into our water courses. The State needs to get its house in order, by giving the local authorities the resources to deal with those problems. Contamination will fall significantly if we invest in the appropriate and proper places.

There is serious concern about bureaucracy and over-regulation in farmyard inspections. Multiple inspections take place on farms around the country, by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the local authority under EPA guidance, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the wildlife services. The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Deputy Smith, and other Ministers and Department officials have said that an attempt would be made to rationalise these inspections to avoid duplication. What follow-up has been made on that commitment? Has the Department put a structure in place to rationalise these inspections and to combine them into one inspection, giving farmers proper notice? That clarity is needed. The farming organisations and committee members have said that. Progress is also needed. There is no good simply talking about it, especially in the current economic climate when we talk about finding savings. This is one area in which great savings can be made, if we can rationalise inspections and bring them to a serviceable level that farmers can understand and with which they can co-operate.

I welcome the delegations. What effect are septic tanks having on the ground water in the north Cork area? In recent months I have received many complaints from constituents about their septic tanks overflowing. I believe this is affecting ground water across that area. Is the country zoned for spreading slurry and fertiliser based on the stone, whether redstone or limestone, or based on the soils in an area? Many pig units are licensed while poultry and dairy units are not.

There is conflict between the county councils and the EPA about investigation and inspections. One has tried to blame the other. I come from an area near the Rivers Blackwater and Fuinseann in north Cork. I did not see much advantage in extending the spreading of artificial nitrogen from 15 to 27 September because grass generally stops growing at that time. It is ridiculous that in respect of the spreading of slurry in my area of north Cork we must close down on 15 October and open up again in mid-January when there can often be much heavier rainfall. I would like to see a change in that. I suggest to Mr. Lynott from the EPA, the expert in that field, that slurry be spread up to 31 October and that we open again on 1 February in that area. There has been no proper investigation of scientific work done in this area because of rainfall and so on. The other point is that since there is no sugar beet crop there has been difficulty in the farming community because farmers are not able to get rid of slurry. Sugar beet was a heavy user of nitrogen, phosphate and limestone. Regarding aquifers, how effective are they and what problems do they cause in ground water in certain areas? How much soakage is there?

We heard Mr. Duggan present the scientific side. Many of us got a bit of agricultural education. If we did not go to college we met the students coming home. Regarding zones, we were always advised that a soil analysis was very important before one spread fertiliser. In the past 30 years the agricultural advisory service did a great deal of work. In Teagasc we have an excellent advisory service. It is the best in Europe. Soil samples were taken and it was standard practice that for grain one fertilised at the rate of 10:10:20, the parts being nitrogen, phosphate and potash. That was the practice over 30 years. The delegates now state it was excessive. If I were to grow grain continuously over three to five years, putting in those levels of fertiliser, how can the delegates say the fertiliser is not depleted, leached out or taken up by the crop? Those are my few questions and I thank the Chairman for giving me the opportunity to raise them.

I will take Deputy Sherlock and then return to the delegates.

The second-last paragraph on page 3 of the IFA submission stated that because the nitrates regulations require slurry to be spread by the 15th of the month, the slurry was spread and good growing grass was spoiled. Such grass is an essential and cost-effective fodder.

On the science of prescribing a specific calendar date with regard to this cut-off point, can the delegates say, in all good scientific knowledge, that after the 15th any slurry spread will definitively fall into the water course or table and act as a pollutant? If the answer is "No", is there now scope within the nitrates action plans — which presumably are to be negotiated next year — for a re-jigging of the system to allow for a greater degree of flexibility to offset the prohibitive nature of these so-called prohibitive periods? It makes absolutely no sense to spread slurry at certain times of the year, given our weather patterns, especially this year, as speakers noted. Such weather makes the spreading of slurry impossible.

Are we now suggesting there must be a State slurry storage facility if we are to adhere to the rules and regulations, or will there be scope in any renegotiation of the nitrates action plan with the Commission to extend the deadlines or come up with some other system based on common sense?

Deputy Scanlon made the same point.

I totally agree with Deputy Sherlock. Earlier this year, before the January start date for spreading, there was good weather for spreading slurry. Then the weather changed and people had to wait for three weeks which caused them great hardship. Cattle were standing up to their knees in muck and dirt in sheds because farmers could not get the slurry out. We had the same conditions this year at the end of the term. Last week was a great week, good and dry after two weeks of reasonably good weather. In the north west where there is a great deal of rainfall many farmers were affected, particularly this year. We had three wet months. July, August and September were extremely wet and farmers could not spread slurry. If they had done so they would have spread it on to good grass. Deputy Sherlock made the same point. Can common sense not prevail? The three groups are present today, namely, the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the Environmental Protection Agency and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Could common sense prevail and farmers be allowed to have an escape valve of perhaps one week? If weather conditions were suitable, that might be all that it would take to allow them to spread slurry. As Deputy Sherlock asked, what would be wrong with 16 as opposed 15 October if weather conditions were right? People should sit down together to try to solve this ongoing problem.

Can the delegates deal with this issue? It has been raised several times but not been addressed.

Mr. Damien Allen

On the issue of dates, they are called the good agricultural practice regulations and as such are meant to encapsulate good practice. My understanding of the rationale for them which has not changed since the directive was first introduced is that at certain times of the year nutrient take-up from crops does not occur. This is part of the cycle of nature. As a general rule, one does not apply nutrients to land during the winter months, the prohibited period chosen in the State. All member states have prohibited periods. Deputy Sherlock asked us to speak about the science — this is my understanding of the situation. At certain times of the year one does not get value from slurry. The IFA hit the button when it stated slurry was a valuable product, not just a waste product. Finding the best use for it forms part of the consideration of the closed period.

Mr. Allen has addressed the idea behind it, but we are wondering about the rigidity of the closed period.

Mr. Pat Duggan

I will take the point raised by Mr. Allen. Let us step back and consider what the nitrates directive is about, namely, nutrient management, storing manure for a certain period and putting that manure on land to optimise the recovery of nutrients and use that resource properly to grow crops. The directive is not about the spreading of slurry. Rather, it is about managing nutrients, protecting the environment and getting optimum recovery of the nutrients in farm waste. The nitrates regulations state one may not do something beyond or before a certain date. We discussed this issue with the scientists in Teagasc and the universities. I can tell the committee with absolute confidence, given the knowledge of the situation in Ireland, that applying nutrients to land outside the dates in question has no agronomic value — end of story. What we are talking about is putting stuff on land and not getting the full benefit. That is scientific fact and the basis on which we started. If we put slurry on land at the wrong time of year when soil is saturated, there is an increased risk of nutrient loss to waters. We would be taking an unnecessary risk of increasing the level of water pollution with no beneficial agronomic value. Is that what we wish to do? That is the reality.

Let us consider the recovery rates of nutrients from manure, as covered in the regulations. We have started by assuming there is a 20% recovery rate, a relatively low value. It is phased upwards over a period of years, reaching a figure of 25% in 2010. Denmark is aiming for a 70% recovery rate of nutrients in manure. We are way behind the game. It is about management, the efficient use of nutrients and adding nutrients to land to optimise crop production; it is not about the spreading of slurry. It is also about protecting the environment.

I accept what Mr. Duggan is saying. The land in the area from which I come was drier last week than it was in July, August or September. That is a fact.

Mr. Pat Duggan

The land may be dry but there will be no value from the nutrients in putting slurry on it at that time. I contend a farmer is better off. He or she can put slurry on but he or she will not derive value from it. Is a farmer not better advised to put the slurry on in early spring when there will be recovery of nutrients? It is a question of being cost effective, being efficient in the use of resources and being a good farmer.

A farmer may not have the capacity to do so.

I wish to respond to Mr. Duggan's contribution. I presume his reference to recovery relates to growth.

Mr. Pat Duggan

Nutrients in manure are being converted in growing crops or grass.

It is to ensure growth.

Mr. Pat Duggan

Yes.

I have seen good growth in late October and early November.

Mr. Pat Duggan

There will be growth in October and November but that will happen because there is sufficient nutrients in the soil. One does not need to apply fertiliser to land in October or November because the rate of growth is not sufficient to warrant the application of nutrients.

If a farmer is compelled to spread slurry on a grass base that is a source of food for cattle or on whatever is being treated, it will destroy whatever is there for four to six weeks. It would make a lot more sense to complete grazing, put on the slurry in the right environment — I am pro-environment — that is, the right weather or climatic conditions, and achieve growth. That would be beneficial. There could be two or three inches of rain in February or March and a farmer would be in a position where the slurry tanks were full but he or she would be unable to spread the slurry and there would be no way of getting rid of it. The farmer is tied to a calendar. It also depends on the part of the country in which he or she is farming. Along the west coast there is a much milder climate and a farmer may be in a position to spread slurry but farmers in other areas may not be able to do so. There must be realism in this discussion. If slurry tanks are full and there is no place to where it can be brought, what does a farmer do?

Deputy Creed has not had an opportunity to speak.

I asked about the prohibitive periods and the negotiation of the nitrogen action plans for 2010. Based on the answers we have received from Mr. Duggan, I am assuming there will be no change in the State's approach to the issue; I assume the status quo will remain in terms of our position on the matter.

The close-down date is 15 October and the restart date is 15 January. I remind the committee that January is a winter month, while October is an autumn month. Why can an extension not be permitted? We should make the dates 1 February to 31 October. January can be a horrendous month, while we can have dry weather in February. How were the dates arrived at?

We will come to that issue.

I would like an answer to my question about clarification. Is progress being made by the Department on the rationalisation of inspections?

I thank the Chairman for giving me the opportunity to ask questions as I am not a member of the committee.

I am staggered by the certainty with which Mr. Duggan can state slurry can be spread on 15 October and one can get an agronomic return but that cannot get a return on 16 October. I was interested in the observation made by Mr. Lynott when he spoke about growth indicators. Is Mr. Duggan familiar with the concept of climate change and the process by which one is scientifically proving the fact that our winters are longer and milder and that on this basis there is ample global evidence of that certainty? That presupposes the existence of potential growth indicators post-16 October. What we need is a practical solution to a problem that manifests itself on every farm at some stage during the year. For some, it manifests at a time when it is possible to solve it, by getting up on the tractor and spreading. For others, it is not an option for reasons of soil, climate and local variables that are not taken into account by the certainty with which a date is prescribed for the entire country, that is, 15 October. This is becoming clearer to me. I am very pleased officials from the Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the EPA are present. The penny is dropping very quickly.

Earlier, Mr. Deane quoted from the Minister's press statement of 24 April 2009, which I have in front of me. The document states that the Minister, Deputy Brendan Smith, confirmed a Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food inspector would undertake nitrates regulations inspection. The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food confirmed that arrangements were being finalised to ensure cross-compliance inspections undertaken by his Department would meet the requirements of the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government under the new nitrates regulations. He said it was essential that the duplication of on-farm inspections was avoided and went into further detail on the matter.

It is obvious someone sold the Minister a pup. Issuing that statement was probably related more to the local elections which took place in June. On 13 October last the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government informed me that primary responsibility for implementation of the nitrates regulations has rested with local authorities since 2005 and discussions are ongoing between his Department, the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and local authority representatives to rationalise existing arrangements. It is clear why this is the case and I seek a response from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food on this matter. What is the problem with rationalising the arrangements?

I appreciate that the IFA has stated this is something the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food should cover. I am not preoccupied but I seek a solution that would minimise the intrusion on farmers and that is informed by good science. Farmers have invested billions of euro in terms of their on-farm facilities because they recognise they are dealing with a resource too. They are not keen to throw it out for the sake of throwing it out on 16 November or 17 November, or, for that matter, on 26 December or whenever is appropriate.

We must take into account that climate change is a factor. There are growth indicators. Good farming practice in many areas I represent may include extended grazing seasons and all year round grazing in certain circumstances. Where there are growth indicators, this enables farmers to sustain such farming practices. The Dutch may be getting 70% but I do not know the circumstances under which that is achieved. Most farmers seek to ensure they receive the maximum return from their resource and have invested significant amounts of money accordingly.

Will Mr. Duggan deal further with the certainty with which he can state that after 15 October one will get no return, but before that date one may, when one takes into account progressive farming practices which deal with extended grazing and all year round grazing in some circumstances? This explains for me why negotiations which have not reached agreement on the matter have continued since April between the two Departments. Farmers are being asked to carry the can for the clash between local authorities, the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. This is not acceptable in today's environment. The duplication and triplication of inspections is ridiculous. If this were an isolated case it would be fine but there is also the stand-off, not especially relevant today, which is costing jobs in coastal communities.

I refer to the stand-off between the fisheries section of the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government over Natura 2000 sites, special areas of conservation impacting on the aquaculture sector of the country. The sector has quantified that it can create thousands of additional jobs and Bord Iascaigh Mhara has approved projects for grant aid but we are not in a position to develop these because of a stand-off between the same two Departments, namely, the green Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, run by Deputy John Gormley, and the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food run by Deputy Brendan Smith. The stand-off is over how to deal with such issues as Natura 2000 sites, the birds directive and so on. This is an ideological clash and the losers are the citizens, the taxpayers and people who cannot avail of export opportunities and new job opportunities as a result.

If we were dealing with an isolated example, that is, the nitrates directive, it would be more palatable but is unacceptable as it stands. This is a continuation of a turf war between two Departments in which the losers are the citizens, the taxpayers and people who seek jobs. I wish that would inform some of the thinking, including a practical approach to things.

I now call Deputies Doyle and Sheehan. I will come back to other Deputies who have not yet contributed. We will also come back for further clarification of all the issues raised.

I thank the deputations for attending the joint committee. It is important to thrash out this matter properly, which is why so many members of the committee are present. I will go through the issues quickly because many of them have already been raised. Mr. Allen said that all member states are obliged to operate a closed period. Can he specify the minimum that closed period must be for? In addition, what regulations govern conditions such as frozen and water-logged? He also referred to recommendations concerning additional measures in the review of the nitrates directive. Is there any provision that, apart from additional measures, a review of the existing measures can take place?

Mr. Lynott said that appropriate action was taken on sanctions, including monitoring, reporting and warnings. The same applies to local authorities where a fine is not necessarily issued on day one. In addition, he said the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food would be informed under the cross-reporting measures. In that context, a sanction is imposed straight away by way of a single farm payment reduction. It may not be Mr. Lynott's responsibility, but it is what happens in effect. Therefore to say that farmers are treated in the same way as local authorities is not exactly true. It may not be from the EPA's point of view, but it is an effect of the current standards.

Notwithstanding what Mr. Duggan said about the closed period, I disagree with him in so far as there is a value in putting nutrients out at a lower rate, which is appropriate to the existing growth indicators pertaining at any time. Every week in the Irish Farmers’ Journal there is a graph which shows current growth patterns compared to last year. One can quite easily monitor it, so it should be possible to put out nutrients or slurry at an appropriate rate per hectare. Apart from that, on 15 October, a reduced stocking rate came into play, as if it was winter. That has nothing to do with the potential to absorb nutrients per se. It has more to do with the available growth of feed cover.

Deputy Creed referred to extended grazing. Over 20 years, Teagasc and the Department have carried out extensive experiments and promotion of extended grazing seasons to cut down on costs, so we could match the New Zealanders. Furthermore, and something which has never even been considered in REPs, there are practices for stands or wintering pads which have a percolation area similar to some sewage treatment plants. We also have reed beds to absorb all the nutrients that are released and they work effectively. No effort is being made by anybody here to recognise those. They never did in REPs. It seems that neither the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government nor the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food are interested in them. These are practical ways in which agricultural production can be cut down so that we can compete.

Mr. McDonnell made the simple point about grain production. We can produce grain in a long-growing season as cost-effectively as anyone if we are allowed to compete, but at the moment we are being forced to compete with both hands tied behind our back.

Some sound rational thinking should be brought into the review of the nitrates action programme. Nobody in the farming world wishes to pollute and I am sure that municipal authorities do not either. Much of the pollution that took place since the 1950s was on foot of expert advice from people who did not know any better at the time, in the same way that we did not know it was dangerous to smoke. We should put this in context. A reversal of this has taken place.

Where Mr. Lynott has no conclusion to draw other than agricultural practice caused the pollution, the EPA should carry out pilot studies in different areas to ascertain the effect of the nitrates directive. The eastern region river basin study of the River Avoca, which passes through the Avoca mines and the municipal waste facility, discovered two adits, one under the tailings at the mine and one that had not been plugged at the dump site. When they were rectified, trout and salmon travelled much further up the river beyond those points, which they had never done previously. The IFI site was further downstream but it had been dealt with. There were many other reasons for that but it was only on foot of a comprehensive study that these adits were discovered. I appreciate I am not a member of the committee and I apologise for going on but this is important.

The Deputy is welcome.

I thank the Chairman for the invitation to attend the meeting. It clearly has been evident over the past decade that farmers are getting the thick end of the stick regarding water pollution, but facts speak louder than words. Farmers have spent more than €2 billion upgrading and developing their farmyards to comply with the requirements of the nitrates directive. A total of 92% of our lakes are unpolluted and, therefore, the focus is clearly shifting to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Duplication of inspections is a waste of public funds. The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food has put its house in order, farmers have put their farmyards in order and it is time the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government put its house in order.

Since the introduction of the nitrates directive in 2006 every farmer has had to meet all the requirements of the regulations or face prosecution. However, a more lenient approach seems to have been adopted towards county councils. They have been identified by the EPA as the most likely cause of the majority of serious and moderate incidents of pollution in Ireland's rivers and seas. What about the sea lettuce problem in the Courtmacsherry-Kilbrittain-Clonakilty coastal area? Why are the local authority and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government not putting their houses in order? I sent a letter to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government more than two months ago requesting him to investigate immediately the sea lettuce problem, which has extended along the south-west coast. There are substandard treatment plants in this area and anyone who drives to Courtmacsherry will see the result of this. Courtmacsherry, Timoleague and Kilbrittain do not have effective treatment plants. The tide is not sufficient to carry the sea lettuce into the Atlantic Ocean. Farmers and county council officials are being driven off their heads because the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the EPA will not investigate the matter to get to the root of the problem. We will face similar conditions along the entire seaboard from Donegal to Cork if the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government does not take steps to get the money from Europe. It should put its own house in order and not blame the farmers. The farmers have done everything possible as far as their end of the commitment is concerned.

Calendar farming is environmentally unsound and unworkable. Nobody can predict the weather. It is so changeable one cannot predict when or where a downpour will occur but every farmer knows their own land and they should be the architects in terms of the way to spread nitrogen. Regardless of the time of year, nitrogen should be applied when the weather is suitable. Otherwise, one will not get the correct solution to that problem.

In addition, failure to extend the slurry spreading date until the end of October to give farmers a chance to graze off paddocks represents an economic loss of €35 million to Irish dairy farmers. How long more can that section of our community endure that loss? That should be borne in mind by departmental officials.

I intend to question the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in the Dáil very soon about the problem in the Courtmacsherry and Kilbrittain areas because Cork County Council cannot afford to deal with the problem. The problem must be addressed. In terms of the cause of the problem, it is clear the local authorities have fallen down in addressing that problem.

The other main areas were covered by previous speakers but I wish to make one or two final points. The IFA proposals move away from the strict close period definition and replace it with a sensitive period whereby, based on the best information available from Met Éireann and Teagasc, farmers are permitted to spread during this sensitive period. As far as I am aware, the farmers in Northern Ireland have no trouble spreading nitrates up to 1 November and I cannot understand why that cannot be incorporated here.

I will be brief. I apologise for my late arrival at the meeting. We are discussing the way the nitrates directive operates in practice. I believe farming is at a serious disadvantage and conflicting evidence arose today between the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. There are issues that must be resolved in the best interests of our rural communities in particular, where our farmers mainly come from.

In recessionary times we should try to do anything we can to take farmers out of the disadvantage they are in currently in terms of this directive. I appeal to the officials, because while they are not being hurt financially, the farming communities are being severely hurt as a result of this directive. We heard the strong comments from the public representatives who are dealing with this issue day to day. I appeal for something to be done to relieve the impasse that has occurred.

Mr. Jack Nolan

To return to Colm McDonnell's points, Teagasc is monitoring the effectiveness of these measures in a mini-catchment programme. The results of those will be available over time but there are a number of catchments selected throughout the country where the measures are being monitored. The first matter referred to was the nitrogen allowance for tillage crops. One Deputy complimented Teagasc on how good an advisory service it is. All the nitrogen and phosphorous rates in the regulation are based on Teagasc advice and came from the Green Book. These are based on the nitrogen response curve where one can go up to 220 kg per hectare and get a good economic response. If a farmer went above that, he will not get such a response. This is allowable under our regulation.

If a farmer uses organic fertilisers two years in a row, he moves to index 2. Before the revision of the regulation in 2006, that would have been index 4. It was revised downwards after advice from Teagasc to allow farmers more nitrogen.

The issue of ploughing and the difficult farming year has been raised. Subsoiling is allowed because it does not remove green cover. The reason ploughing is allowed from December 1 this year is to cater for the exceptional circumstances that have occurred over the past three years and on advice from Teagasc that there will not be a problem as regards nitrates leaching because of the cold weather in December and early January. It should be acknowledged the EPA has published a report by Michael O'Neill that shows there is 40 times more run-off of nitrates from ploughed ground and grassland, 80 kg per hectare as opposed to 2 kg per hectare.

Another issue raised was that availability figures were too high for organic manures. These are negotiated figures between the Commission and the Irish delegation. Mr. Pat Duggan already outlined the high figures used in other countries. The Commission is attempting to encourage farmers to use nitrogen and slurry at particular times of the year, such as spring, when they will get more nitrogen from it.

As regards excessive nutrients on Irish land, 25% of Irish land has a phosphorus-index rating of four. The index system goes from one, a deficiency in phosphorus, to four, too much of it and posing a danger to the environment.

One Deputy claimed there was no advantage to the extension for spreading chemical fertiliser date in September. He is correct because growth slows down at that time of year. That is why slurry cannot be spread later in the year. It has been acknowledged that spreading chemical fertiliser later in September is not required.

The data of 30 years rainfall were examined with Met Éireann to arrive at the decision that October to December are the wettest months on average. Grass growth rate slows down and once the temperature goes below 6° Celsius it will stop. As a result, there will be little uptake of nutrients with an increased run-off of nitrogen. The directive calls for prohibited periods for spreading in all member states. These are the most opportune months in Ireland.

One Deputy said he used 10:10:20 fertiliser for years and asked why he could not use it now. This would be putting out 30 units of phosphorus when Teagasc says he should only use 20 units. If we continue putting out three bags of 10:10:20 per acre without any soil tests, we will end up with excess nutrients.

No one has claimed that on 15 January that something magical happens and that it is safe to spread slurry. These are negotiated dates, based on Teagasc advice and research that show that if slurry is spread when lands are saturated and the water table, highest, nitrogen will be lost.

If a farmer puts in his cattle in November when the tanks are empty, he will not have to spread slurry again until next March when the growing season will be in full swing. The fact that farmers have invested up to €2 billion in slurry storage will make a large difference to slurry being spread in the winter. There have also been changes to spreading slurry in the spring. There have been open days in Moorepark and four supplements in the farming press about spreading slurry in the spring using trailing shoes and other equipment to get as much nitrogen from it as possible.

The storage requirements in the UK are 20 weeks and in the North, 22 weeks. The mini-catchments will review the effectiveness of the programme. Reduced storage was a concession. If a farmer out-wintered he would not have to provide all the storage required by the regulation. It was a concession agreed with the Commission for extensively stocked farmers. Stand-off pads and earth-banked tanks are being built on Irish farms. There is also a working group examining how effective reed beds will be on Irish farms. Farmyard manure can be spread until 1 November, although slurry spreading finished on 15 October.

That is very helpful.

Mr. Derek Deane

It is interesting to listen to the debate but confusion is a common element to all its strands. Interpretations of reality differ widely. The confusion with which I am particularly concerned is in regard to the Departments, Mr. Duggan and Mr. Nolan in particular. The past three years were the wettest on record. Farmers have had to house their cattle, at significant expense, for 12, 14 and 16 weeks during the summer to avoid pollution and soil erosion. They were allowed to spread slurry during the open period but their land was not traversable. Everybody recognised that difficulty. It was disingenuous of the Departments to prohibit an extension into autumn given the horrendous weather and unique circumstances we have experienced.

One can draw up any regulation by date but it may not work in practice. That we have been getting derogations from the man above since this regulation was first introduced three years ago is an indication of the difficulties that arise in respect of it. The matter needs to be addressed proactively. Farmers are trying to produce on their lands and they obviously do not want to damage the environmental heritage from which they make their living. However, it does not make sense to stick rigidly to a date without understanding the difficulties caused by weather. We can have storage periods of 12 or 16 weeks but if we have to house our cattle over abnormal grazing periods, we will need to add substantially to our stores to comply with the views taken by the Departments.

In an attempt to bring common sense to the matter, the IFA proposes to replace the strict closed period definition with a sensitive period based on the best information available from Met Éireann and Teagasc within which farmers are permitted to spread once the conditions preventing the spreading of fertiliser are met and soil and ground conditions are appropriate.

In recent days, farmers have been working around the clock to take advantage of such conditions. Last Thursday evening I spoke to the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food regarding this issue and at 1.15 a.m. that morning, I encountered a vacuum tanker in Ballymahon. That is the reality for farmers but it is not being addressed by the Legislature or the people who are in charge of these matters. It is not practical to draw black and white rules when one deals with nature. As Ireland has a higher mean temperature than the rest of Europe, we should have a shorter closed period. We also need to be practical in addressing the environmental issues.

Mr. Deane set out the IFA's proposal on sensitive periods but if an extra fortnight had been allowed for slurry spreading would his organisation have agreed to commence a fortnight later at the other end?

Mr. Derek Deane

The Chairman has to realise that the primary issue was the weather during the summer. Cattle were housed at a time when they normally would be outside.

I understand.

Mr. Derek Deane

The storage capacity is not available to deal with that issue. We are facing a serious fodder shortage because of the short grazing season and the need to house stock all summer. We are now being asked to put slurry on grass that could be grazed and if we do not put it out, we cannot take in the cattle. In obeying the law, one finds oneself in a vicious circle. The other options are to forget about the law or else work at night, but these are not adequate solutions.

I call Mr. Pat Farrell, chairman of the IFA's environment committee.

Mr. Pat Farrell

On the issue of land sterilisation, golf courses are exempt from spreading fertiliser during the closed periods. There are cases of wells within the proposed buffer zones. On the proposed ground water regulation, the World Health Organization clearly states that 50 kg per hectare is acceptable and safe. No other figure should be used.

Mr. Tim Cullinan

I represent the pig industry and the intensive sector. When the nitrates directive was introduced in 2006 it was regarded as highly restrictive. An intensive livestock working group was established by the then Minister for Agriculture and Food, the Tánaiste, Deputy Mary Coughlan, to deal with the issue. Although we made submissions to the group, it did not produce a report or findings.

At the time, a transitional arrangement was agreed for a derogation on phosphorous until the end of 2010. This arrangement should be extended for a further three to four years. We have examined alternative means of dealing with pig manure, for example, treatment, but no progress has been made because the Government has not provided funding. To compare the position here with that of the United Kingdom, the price paid for electricity produced using anaerobic digestion is 12 cent here and 22 cent in the UK. We are at a serious disadvantage. The transitional arrangement should be extended until this matter is rectified.

Mr. Lynott described the buffer zone from water supplies of 200 m as excessive. He also indicated the Irish Farmers' Association had asked local authorities to revise the distance. Will he elaborate on this?

Mr. Dara Lynott

Under the regulations, the buffer zone must be 200 m. Our advice suggests this distance is too large. The regulation allows for local authorities to seek advice on this matter from the Environmental Protection Agency. We are proactively issuing this advice and it will be available to all local authorities. The biggest function of the distance is how secure the seal is on the well as opposed to the land spreading issue.

Does the buffer zone apply to chemical and organic fertilisers?

Mr. Dara Lynott

It refers to land spreading of organic fertiliser.

Mr. Jack Nolan

The buffer zone distance is 1.5 m for chemical fertilisers.

That figure refers to open water courses. The directive states that chemical fertilisers shall not be applied to land within 1.5 m of a surface water course. This refers to an open vein or an area in which water is flowing. Section 17 then deals with organic fertiliser.

Mr. Jack Nolan

It is only organic fertiliser.

Where in the directive is it stated that chemical fertiliser may be spread——

Mr. Jack Nolan

The directive does not specifically exclude chemical fertiliser, referring only to organic fertiliser.

In that case, one can spread organic fertiliser up to within 1.5 m of an abstraction point.

Mr. Jack Nolan

That applies to chemical fertiliser. One can utilise the land for grazing and plough it but one cannot spread organic fertilisers within the distances specified.

One can spread chemical fertiliser.

Mr. Jack Nolan

Chemical fertiliser can be spread up to 1.5 m from a water source.

As Chairman of the joint committee, I must be straight with the Department. I have listened to Mr. Nolan's comments on the various dates. The Department stated these dates were negotiated. Is that correct?

Mr. Jack Nolan

Yes, but also based on——

Teagasc appears to move forwards and backwards and has different zones. The scientific evidence cited by departmental officials before the joint committee never appears to stand up. I will give several examples. Broad areas along the banks of a number of rivers were proposed as special areas of conservation. We were told there was scientific evidence but when they were put to the test, they were dramatically reduced in several places. I am aware that is the case with the River Nore and other areas in the midlands. What was quoted as scientific evidence did not stand up when put to the test.

Now we have the legal doctrine of 200 m. It was probably based on somebody's scientific evidence a while ago but now the EPA has stated for the second time that the distance is not merited. When the 200 m distance is put to the test, it does not stand up. That is based on scientific evidence. Every time the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has quoted scientific evidence as the basis of a decision it has implemented in recent years, when push has come to shove that scientific evidence has not stood up to scrutiny and different decisions have been made. The representatives must give members — all members of the committee will receive the transcript later — some confidence that when the Department quotes scientific evidence, there is a basis for it. We have not seen it, especially when representatives of the EPA tell the committee today that the 200 m distance should not be specified. Perhaps Mr. Allen will respond. Does he understand my argument?

Mr. Damien Allen

I do. I intended to clarify the regulations. The figure of 200 m is the radius of the exclusion zone mentioned, but the regulations have always included a provision, in the same article, that in some circumstances it would not be appropriate. That is the point Mr. Lynott was making. We are not saying it is absolutely cast in stone at 200 m. The regulations have always recognised that sometimes it would not be appropriate. If there are sound grounds as to why it is not, there is a mechanism in the regulations to reduce that distance. That has been the case since the regulations were introduced in 2005.

Can the same not apply to the dates? If there is flexibility on distances, why not have flexibility on dates?

Mr. Damien Allen

My understanding is that the dates were arrived at in 2005 following a massive consultation process involving all parties——

It was a compromise.

Mr. Damien Allen

There was a heated debate at the time, as members will recall.

Mr. Damien Allen

The dates were settled on at that time based on the discussions and the best scientific advice available.

Mr. Jack Nolan

Due to the wet weather in the summer many did not have a second cut of silage. They cut silage in September when the weather was dry and there were opportunities to put slurry on that ground. Teagasc are advising people to close off paddocks from 8 October to ensure there will be good grass cover next spring. There are other areas where slurry could be put. Some even tried to make hay last September, and did so. People put in winter crops. They are being told to use organic manure on oil seed rape. The weather has been exceptional.

To refer back to the science, grass growth is reduced at this time of year more than any other. That is a fact. Based on 30 years of evidence, it is the time of the highest rainfall and there is a higher water table. These are facts, as Teagasc research has proved. That is the reason the dates — October, November and December — were decided.

Mr. Pat Duggan

I wish to make a further comment on the point made by Mr. Allen about the buffer zones, rather than leave the committee with the view that there was some drawback in that regard. The origins of the buffer zones listed in the regulations are in an earlier document, a voluntary guidance document called The Blue Book, which was a code of good agricultural practice. It was produced as a requirement of the nitrates directive and to be implemented on a voluntary basis by member states. It was jointly produced by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and Teagasc. The difficulty we faced when we eventually got around to making the regulations was that the directive strictly required that we incorporate into the regulations what was included in The Blue Book regarding buffer zones. In our negotiations with it the Commission insisted on maintaining these buffer zones in order to close the court case at the time. We were conscious of the fact, even then, that these limits were probably excessive in many cases. It was for that reason we included a provision in the regulations whereby a local authority, on the basis of a site-specific judgment could modify them in consultation with the EPA. We would like to have seen a stronger roll-out of that provision of the directive by local authorities. However, that has not happened to the extent it possibly could have. As Mr. Lynott stated, as a result of this the EPA is now taking the initiative of developing guidance so that local authorities might provide that facility in a more meaningful way.

The review of the nitrates action programme is ongoing and I am aware that the Department is obliged to consult only other Departments and local authorities. Is the IFA formally part of the review process?

Mr. Damien Allen

A public consultation process, to which the IFA can contribute, forms part of that review process.

It can make a submission but it is not part of the formal review process.

Mr. Damien Allen

As a matter of course, we meet representatives of the IFA to discuss all issues that arise relating to water.

Has progress been made with regard to the rationalisation of inspections within the Department, as outlined by the Minister last April?

Mr. Damien Allen

Yes, progress has been made. We have had a number of meetings in the interim with our colleagues in the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the local authorities. It is not just the two Departments that are involved in this area, local authorities have a key role to play. We must ensure that we bring the local authorities with us in respect of this matter. We have reached the stage where we are examining the detail of the criteria that need to be agreed among local authorities, the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and ourselves. Effectively, the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food will carry out inspections on behalf of local authorities.

I will not go into much detail but I wish to provide an indication of some of the complexities that are involved. The kind of criteria the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food would use to inform its inspection regime under cross-compliance would differ from those local authorities would apply for water inspection purposes. It is a question of ensuring that all the details are agreed by the different parties so that everyone will know what we are doing and will be satisfied with the system.

Is there an industrial relations issue to be dealt with in this regard?

Mr. Damien Allen

No industrial relations issues have arisen.

Is Mr. Allen in a position to indicate when a final report containing recommendations will be available?

Mr. Damien Allen

Our target is that inspectors from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food will begin carrying out inspections on behalf of local authorities early in 2010. If all the details are agreed prior to that, inspections will commence at the earliest date.

Mr. Derek Deane

The IFA insists that it should be part of the delegation relating to the review of the nitrates directive. In addition, it hopes a common-sense approach will be taken on this occasion.

I am glad Senator Coffey referred to the issue of joint inspections. It is incredible that two Departments cannot reach agreement in respect of a simple issue. Our clear understanding has been that the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food will carry out inspections and that if there is an incidence of pollution, that will be an issue for the relevant local authority. I do not believe that the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government has a role to play in respect of environmental inspections, particularly in view of the fact that the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food will have responsibility in this regard.

This matter must be resolved. People read their statements into the record earlier in the meeting. However, there still appears to be a reluctance on the part of some Departments to clarify the issue once and for all and to take a common-sense approach in respect of it.

Is the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government investigating the problem in south-west Cork?

Will the officials from the Department issue a written reply to the committee in respect of that matter? When we receive that reply, we will forward it to the Deputy.

Mr. Colm McDonnell

I welcome what Mr. Deane stated. It is vital the industry is involved in the negotiations relating to the next round. While I welcome Mr. Nolan's report, there are questions to be answered. For example, why is 40% of fertiliser allowed from slurry in England while only 25% is allowed here? Why are 230 kg per hectare allowed across the water or on a farm just 60 miles down the road, while a farm beside it is only allowed 190 kg? Our tillage crops and yields are being depleted because of the regulations and it is vital that the IFA is part of the next round of negotiations.

Unless any one else wishes to contribute, we will conclude. We have had a useful discussion which lasted nearly two and a half hours. I thank everyone who appeared from the Departments of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, the Environmental Protection Agency and, in particular, the delegation from the IFA. It was useful and the witnesses saw many Deputies and Senators during the meeting. While they could not all remain here for the duration of the meeting, they participated in high numbers thus demonstrating this is an important issue. The joint committee will meet representatives from An Bord Pleanála at our next meeting.

The joint committee adjourned at 6.15 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Wednesday, 28 October 2009.
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