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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Wednesday, 25 Nov 2009

Local Government (Charges) Act 2009: Discussion with Departmental Officials.

Members will recall from our last meeting the matter of the Local Government (Charges) Act 2009 which introduced the annual €200 charge for non-principal private residences payable by the owners of such residences to the local authority in whose area the properties concerned are located. The joint committee had asked the officials in the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to appear before the committee to discuss anomalies arising in the application of this charge. I welcome Mr. Des Dowling, assistant secretary, local government division, Mr. Laurence Kelly, assistant principal, local government finance, and Ms Deirdre Fanning, assistant principal, local government finance. The format of the meeting will involve brief presentations followed by a question and answer session.

Before proceedings commence, I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Mr. Dowling to commence his presentation.

Mr. Des Dowling

I thank the Chairman and members of the committee for the invitation to appear before the committee today to discuss the Local Government (Charges) Act 2009 and for the opportunity to make a brief statement. The Act came into effect in July of this year. As members will be aware, its purpose was to give effect to the Government's decision announced in the 2009 budget to introduce an annual charge on non-principal private residences. The charge has been set at €200 and liability for it falls, in the main, on owners of rental, holiday and vacant properties. The intention behind the introduction of the charge was not only to help close the gap between expenditure and revenue but also to broaden the revenue base of local authorities. Proceeds from the charge are being paid to and retained by local authorities and are being used to fund the provision of local services.

In advancing this measure the Minister has drawn attention to the fact that this was a significant new step and the first for some time in which a dedicated new source of funding for local authorities was being put in place. In this context, the committee will be aware that the need for local authorities to have access to additional sources of local finance has been a topic of regular mention. It has been observed that by international standards, the revenue base of local authorities could be viewed as being relatively narrow with local authorities here being disproportionately dependent on central government funding. The Act is important in that it seeks to introduce a relatively stable, local source of funding for local authorities that will not, among other things, be subject to the volatility associated with the transaction-based activity. As such, it represents an important step change in how local government is financed.

The Act provides a relatively short and straightforward legislative measure. Essentially, owners are liable to pay a charge in respect of properties that are not their sole or main residence. Owners are liable to pay an annual charge of €200 to the local authority in whose area the property is situated. Liability arises each year on a point-in-time basis. Ownership of a relevant residential property on a specified day, known in the Act as the liability date, gives rise to the requirement to pay the charge. The date of 31 July was designated as the liability date for 2009. In 2010 and onwards, the liability date will be 31 March, which will fit somewhat better with the overall annual financial cycle of local authorities. The committee will appreciate that in the first year of the charge and having regard to the time associated with preparation and enactment of the legislation, it was necessary to opt for a liability date in the second half of the year. For future years, however, the approach taken has been to build in a liability date at the end of the first quarter.

The legislation provides that payment of the charge falls due two months after the liability date and there is then a further one month's grace before any penalties for non-payment commence. Penalties will mount at the rate of €20 per month so there is a strong incentive for the owner of a property which is liable to pay the charge promptly. The charge can be viewed as a type of self-assessment measure because it is for the owner of the property in question to assess in the first instance whether there is a liability to pay the charge. Given the relatively modest level at which the charge is set, it was considered important to minimise the costs associated with its collection. Accordingly, local authorities are not required to issue bills or invoices for the charge.

The Local Government (Charges) Act is structured with a starting position of a universal liability for residential property in respect of the charge and goes on to exempt certain buildings and owners from this liability. To put it another way, it identifies what is not liable within the totality of residential buildings rather than taking as a starting point buildings and owners that are liable. By far the most important exemption relates to where a property is the owner's sole or main residence. The residence must be suitable for use as a dwelling to come within the meaning of the Act and be situated in the State.

Owner-occupied residences account for 70% of the entire housing stock so straight away we can say that more than 70% of properties are exempt from the charge. The more important of the other exemptions include property which is let directly or indirectly by local authorities or voluntary and co-operative housing bodies for social housing, property which is the subject of shared ownership arrangements with local authorities and certain properties considered to be of heritage or architectural interest. Other exemptions to the charge are provided for people who, while moving house, may own two residential properties for a short period and for residential properties owned by charities. There is also an exemption for a situation where, following a divorce or separation, a spouse lives in a property owned by the other spouse. Exemptions are also included where a person has to vacate his or her home because of long-term physical or mental infirmity and for property where a relative of the owner lives rent-free, as long as that property is within a certain distance of the owner's home.

In putting the new charge in place, the view taken was that an annual charge of €200 is a relatively modest one. This view was underpinned by a recognition that it is payable by people who own a property other than that in which they live. All in all, in enacting the legislation, it might be concluded that the charge does not represent an unduly heavy burden on those required to pay it. The Act has placed the collection of the charge under the care and management of local authorities.

In the nature of any new charge, a variety of cases have come forward and a wide range of queries relating to the applicability of the charge have arisen. In some cases this is a cause of concern for the individuals involved. This has been represented clearly to the Minister by public representatives.

Local service delivery is a matter of close interest to this committee. The Department has sought to respond as clearly as possible to all cases raised with it. The guidance provided to local authorities is relevant in this regard. On the treatment of individual cases, it is a matter for local authorities in the first instance to interpret the legislation for those cases.

The committee may wish to note that up to 23 November 2009 some €48.3 million had been collected under the charge in respect of just over 240,000 properties.

Payment of the charge is accepted on behalf of any local authority through a website designed and constructed by the Local Government Computer Services Board, which is broadly similar to the motor tax on-line system. The revenue accruing is relayed automatically and at intervals to the bank account of the city or county council in whose area the property is situated. While payment is also accepted locally in local authority offices, local authorities have been asked to use the website for their own convenience and to minimise the costs associated with the administration and collection of the charge. To date, some 75% of transactions have been completed on-line.

The revenue stream which this Act has introduced is immensely important, not just in terms of the amount of money it has generated but in that it has established a new funding source for local authorities, one that is genuinely local in that it derives from revenue raised locally and that it is expended for local purposes.

In putting the new charge in place, the following broad principles were involved: the need to put in place a new additional source of funding for local government; for that to be reasonably modest in its level with an objective of making this as straightforward an application and administration as possible; and to incorporate appropriate penalties to incentivise timely payment.

In the nature of the charge the yield will vary from one city or county council to the next but given the total yield so far and the pressure on local funding generally, it must be counted as an important initiative. Its practical implementation is good evidence of local authorities adopting a shared services approach in keeping with the policy of achieving a more integrated public service.

I thank Mr. Dowling. Members are invited to ask questions. I call Deputy Scanlon.

I am aware of a case involving a couple who lived in Limerick but who for work reasons had to move to another county. They tried to sell their house in Limerick to allow them buy a house in Sligo. Unfortunately, they were unable to sell their house which meant they had to rent a house in Sligo. In the meantime they also had to rent their house in Limerick. That couple own only one house but they have been told by the local authority that they are obliged to pay the €200. That is unfair. The charge was not introduced to target people with one home. It is wrong that these people who are trying to sell their house to move to the area where they work are charged this €200.

I see the renewal date is being brought forward by nearly six months to March 2010. That means people will pay twice in seven months. That is unreasonable also. It is fine to say some people can well afford to pay for a second house but I know people who have converted a single dwelling into three or four flats. In my own area it is difficult to rent flats because there is such a supply of new houses. Where there are three or four flats in a house the owner is obliged to pay €200 for each of them, which can amount to €800 or €1,000, even though the flats are unoccupied.

Is the funding collected by the local authority less or plus the rate support grant?

I thank the officials from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government for attending and making a presentation on this issue.

On page 5 of the presentation it states that until 23 November 2009 approximately €48.3 million has been collected in respect of 240,000 properties. That does not mean there are 240,000 people with second homes. There are people who own a house in my county and constituency of Longford-Westmeath but who, because of problems that arise in the winter, choose to rent a property in Dublin where they work. They are liable for the tax. They own only one house but they have to pay this tax because they live in rented accommodation while working in Dublin, which costs them approximately €500 to €600 per month. That is not fair on those people. There should be some exemption for people in that category. It is an issue on which I would like some clarification.

When the legislation was brought forward initially it was aimed at people with second homes but people in hospital for a period of time have got an exemption. Those who are forced to rent in the area where they are employed should not be liable for the charge if they own only one property. In most cases those people are paying a hefty mortgage on the property they purchased in what we call the boom years. They are under enough pressure without being liable for this property tax.

Mr. Dowling might deal with those questions. I will call Deputy O'Sullivan after that. Deputy Scanlon and Deputy Bannon have raised a particular problem. We have the same problem in Galway. People in Galway whose job moved to Dublin had no option but to rent a property in Dublin while they tried to sell their property in Galway, which is almost impossible now no more than anywhere else. They are now liable for a levy of €200 on the property in Galway if they rent it and they must pay rent on the property in Dublin. Deputy Bannon will not rent a property in Dublin for €500 or €600 a month. He would have to double or triple that figure in cases of which I am aware. However, Mr. Dowling might deal with the principle of the question.

Mr. Des Dowling

The questions are related. Individual cases are a matter for the individual local authority to interpret but I appreciate that there is a range of cases which are of a similar nature and we can comment on them.

The intention of the legislation is to provide a source of funding for local services. In terms of some of the terminology that has been used, people have spoken about a charge on second homes. That is not the approach taken by the Oireachtas to this in enacting the legislation. Essentially, the legislation starts from a position that there is universal liability but then exempts property that is one's sole or main residence. To take that point further, it would say that a person can only have one sole or main residence. The Oireachtas did not attempt to identify the reason one might not live in one's sole or main residence.

We fully understand the difficulties people may face when they have to travel to work in another location and must rent accommodation but the legislation passed by the Oireachtas did not seek to examine the reason somebody does not live in his sole or main residence. There is a range of reasons that might be the case. In a different market position that sole original house may be rented out or subject to some other commercial benefit but the main exemption is that if it is one's sole or main residence one does not have to pay. If it is not, the liability arises. In the cases mentioned, the individuals are not living in the house and their sole or main residence is the property they rent. Therefore, the house, whether it be in Limerick or Longford——-

What is the position if a person returns to that house at the weekend?

Mr. Des Dowling

The property in which the person lived originally is the one that falls liable under the terms of the Act.

What is the position if a person had a room in the city but returns to his or her house at the weekend?

Mr. Des Dowling

One would be reluctant to interpret individual cases but it comes down to which house is the individual's main residence and a person can only have one. A combination of factors might be used to judge that. A place where a person only spends weekends probably would not fall into the category of being one's main residence. A property one owns and uses occasionally could not be viewed as being one's main residence, notwithstanding the fact that there are different motives in this respect. We expect local authorities will be flexible as to how they determine what is a person's main residence. The approach in the legislation is consistent with the general approach taken in other law, for example, taxation law, and with the approach used by the Revenue Commissioners, for example, in regard to capital gains tax where the key issue is whether a property is one's sole or main residence.

Mr. Dowling referred to the owners of habitable houses being liable to the charge. When a person applies for planning permission, he or she may say that a house is habitable when in point of fact it may be an old, run-down farmhouse. Who makes the determination that such a house will be liable to the €200 charge? In many such cases, a family would have built a new house and moved out of the old farmhouse. A son or daughter of that family, when applying for planning permission, will state that the farmhouse on the land is habitable to smooth the passage of his or her planning application. Would the €200 charge apply to such a farmhouse?

Mr. Dowling mentioned that buildings of an architectural or heritage value will be exempt from the charge. If a caretaker lives in part of a house, or if a stud farm owner has a grooms' house and the grooms live in that house, will that be counted as a second house owned by the stud farm owner?

Has the Department yet decided how and on what the money collected on foot of this charge by the county councils will be spent? Will it be spent on the day-to-day activities of the county councils? Will it be used with a broad brush or will it be spent on designated areas?

Mr. Dowling mentioned the liability date will be 31 March and that there will be three-month period within which a person can pay the charge and after that a set levy will apply. It appears this charge is being introduced on the cheap in that landlords will not receive notice of when the charge is due. I do not know if that is a good idea. All of us need to be reminded from time to time of our responsibilities and commitments. If a person is running over the date by which the charge is due and it is into the second month, the local authority should be asked to issue a notice to remind the landowner that the charge is due. In some cases, the landowner could have moved and the charge payable would be payable by a new landowner.

Mr. Dowling said that exemptions to the charge will not apply to people with a physical or mental infirmity and for property where a relative of the owner lives rent-free, as long as the property is within a certain distance of the owner's home. He might clarify what he means by that statement.

There are a few grey areas in the scheme with which I will deal shortly. Local authorities apply high development charges to new buildings. This property charge is yet another levy on top of those charges. I envisage serious problems will arise with the rolling out of this measure. For instance, if a man in a townland marries a woman ten miles down the road, he will automatically have a second house. If that woman's father and mother live in the house to which they have no call in terms of ownership, they will be further than the distance of 2 km or 3 km to which an exemption from payment of the charge will apply. The position applying to liability to this charge in the case of a man who lives in a house that is 10 km from his own house will be the same as that applying to a man who married his next door neighbour. What is the liability to the charge for people in such circumstances? The same position applies to both individuals except one man would live 10 km from his own house and the other man would live within 1 km or 2 km of his own house. Mr. Dowling might clarify that aspect.

Another issue is where the money collected on foot of this charge will be spent. I have a problem in that respect.

Who decides when new houses are habitable or inhabitable? If a new house is built, it can be finished but there may be no beds or chairs or in it. Who will decide when such a house is habitable? Where is the line drawn? Part of the kitchen may be fitted in a new house but the work may not be completed. Mr. Dowling might clarify that aspect.

The principal concern I have in regard to this measure relates to holiday homes. I do not mean holiday homes in the sense of a person who lives in Dublin who has a holiday home in west Cork which he or she uses for his or her own purposes. I do not have a problem with the charge being applied to the owners of such houses because as I have said for many years, a charge should apply to such holiday homes and the revenue derived should accrue to some organisation, preferably the local authorities. A small farmer in my area has done up an old house which he rents out and from which business he derives part of his income. He pays tax on his turnover. He is bringing people into this country who generate money for the economy. Under this measure, that man will be penalised for doing that. Rather than encouraging him, giving him a grant and aiding him to bring people into this country, he will be penalised by the imposition of this €200 charge. The charge may not appear to be significant, but if one runs a tight ship, the charge can have an effect. I feel strongly about this aspect. This person has gone out of his way to generate income for the local economy by providing accommodation for people in this house he did up and which business is part of his income but for doing which he will be penalised. Mr. Dowling might address that aspect.

Before Mr. Dowling replies I have one question for him. The law provides that all rented property must be registered with the local authorities, but that law was never strictly enforced. Many rented properties are not registered with the local authorities. How will the owners of those rented properties be brought into the net? It is easy for local authorities to trap the person who obeys the law and registers his or her property, but how will the people who have not registered their rented properties with the relevant local authority be traced?

Mr. Des Dowling

I will reply to one or two questions Deputy Scanlon raised on which other Deputies followed up and I will deal with the questions in that order.

The renewal date is obviously a concern to people because, as Deputies said, the initial liability date is at the end of September and for future years it will be the end of March. This brings those dates more proximate. The Oireachtas would have set the earliest date it could in 2009 to allow people to become aware of what the liability was, in the first place, and to allow time for the legislation itself to be passed.

It is charging a person for a year and charging again for part of the same year. That is ridiculous.

Mr. Des Dowling

The position is that liability occurs at a point in time.

It occurred in October this year and people registered and paid their €200. They expected that to cover them for a year at least. Now the Department wants to charge them for the same year again.

Mr. Des Dowling

I understand the point, Deputy. The funding goes to local authorities in respect of 2009.

I am not concerned about the funding in local authorities at all. The Department, which is implementing this scheme, charged people €200 and they paid it in October, covering themselves for a year. That was when the legislation came into force. It was relevant from October. Now the Department wants to charge the same people for part of that year again from March. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

Mr. Des Dowling

The legislation as passed by the Oireachtas states there is a liability in each calendar year. The date chosen in 2009 was to give time for the legislation to be passed——

That could be challenged.

Mr. Des Dowling

——and for people to have time to be aware of it. The earliest it could be done was the end of September, bearing in mind that the legislation was passed at the end of July.

It was not made clear to people when they were paying the €200 in October that they were only paying it for three months.

People are actually paying a charge of €350 for the first year.

Mr. Des Dowling

The position is that one pays in respect of a liability date in each calendar year. In 2009, it is the end of September and for future years it will be at the end of March. That will cover the entirety of 2010 and we assume it will follow in subsequent years.

This committee should make a formal protest about that to the Minister. One cannot double charge people. It is unacceptable and will lead to people refusing to pay in 2010 when they have already paid for the year. They will be justified in doing that.

Mr. Des Dowling

I can see where that view comes from.

People could be credited for €150.

We will let Mr. Dowling reply to the other questions and return to that before we conclude.

Mr. Des Dowling

It is like other taxes which occur in a calendar year. Motor tax is a case in point, where a car is taxed for the full calendar year. This is similar. The car must be taxed for the entire year unless it is off the road.

That does not make sense. It is not relevant.

Mr. Des Dowling

There is a variety of taxes or charges which apply across the calendar year. This is the approach the Oireachtas has taken.

We will return to that. Perhaps Mr. Dowling would continue on the other questions.

Mr. Des Dowling

The liability date was the end of September. Deputy Scanlon made a point about several flats or units in a single house. Each of those is potentially liable if they are not a sole or main residence of the owner.

There is no restriction on how local authorities use the funds from this. On other occasions the committee has discussed the need for sufficient funding of local services and has given its attention to particular issues that arise at local level because of constraints on funding. Those requirements occur across all of 2009, 2010 and future years. The benefit to local authorities is to get a return on the services delivered locally for those who have these properties. There is no restriction on how city or county councils use the funding. It goes into their main current revenue and the council determines how it chooses to spend it.

Is it in addition to the rates support grant?

Mr. Des Dowling

There is no specific connection between the two. This is collected as a separate charge by the local authorities. The rates support grant or Exchequer contribution and motor tax receipts which go into the local government fund are allocated separately from this, which is received locally.

This is on top of the local authority's normal income from the Government.

Mr. Des Dowling

It is additional to funding from the local government fund. That reinforces the point that services are being supplied by local authorities and among the beneficiaries of those services are the individuals that have been described in the various cases mentioned here.

Deputy O'Sullivan mentioned the self-catering or other forms of accommodation which bring business and activity to these counties. However, one could argue, and this would have been the thinking behind the legislation, that people can operate these businesses in part because of the services that local authorities provide in terms of local road and water infrastructure and other services. The purpose of the charge is to provide income to local authorities to assist them in supplying those services.

With regard to the question of the dwellings being habitable, the charge results from self-assessment so it is up to the individual to make a judgment as to whether they are liable for it. Again, we would expect a degree of flexibility to be used in these cases. Under the guidelines that have been given to local authorities one could certainly consider issues such as the structure of the building, whether it has a sound roof, if it is affected by dampness, whether it has sanitary facilities, a water supply and so forth. These are the normal commonsense things one would consider. These factors would have to be taken into account in deciding whether the dwelling is habitable and therefore subject to the charge. I accept there will always be a variety of cases and Deputy Fitzpatrick mentioned some of them, particularly on farms and so forth, where houses might have been used as dwellings but were changed to another purpose after a new house is built. In passing the legislation it was intended that only houses which were clearly habitable would be caught by the charge, not houses which were subsequently used for storage or some other purpose and were not habitable.

There was a further question about the distance involved. This issue was given close attention when the legislation was going through the Houses. The final version of the legislation sought to accommodate some of the points raised with the Minister at the time. One of these points was that people often provide a home for a relative and do not charge rent for it and, as a consequence, the charge should not apply to the owner of that home.

On that point, it often happens in rural areas that there is an old residence when the family builds a new residence. For sentimental and other reasons, they maintain the old residence, be it a thatched house or whatever. The family is now working away from home but return at weekends and stays in that old house which is used for no reason other than family purposes. Is that house liable to tax as a second residence? The sons stay there and play matches with the local team at weekends. Because of overcrowded accommodation they use the old house.

Mr. Des Dowling

The basic rule is that we start from the premise of whether the house is a sole and main residence. If it is not, it is potentially liable, then one has to look at the potential for further exemptions. If the house is habitable it is potentially liable. If a relative is living in rent-free and it is within 2 km of the owner's property then it is not.

That conflicts with what Mr. Dowling said in his presentation that exemptions are also included where a relative of the owner lives rent free, as long as that property is within two kilometres of the owner's home. The property is within two kilometres, it is in the farmyard, it is rent free and is used by a relative. Can Mr. Dowling explain?

Mr. Des Dowling

There are a couple of aspects. The other condition is that it must be habitable. I assume it is habitable.

Yes, it is habitable.

Mr. Des Dowling

The further point is that the relative should be living in it full time. This rule was not developed uniquely in this legislation but it is consistent with the approach used by the Revenue Commissioners in regard to the carer's allowance and was trying to reflect the support which individuals give to a relative. The assumption is that the relative is living there and that is why the care is provided in this house which has been provided rent free. The two kilometre rule came from the ruling which Revenue has used which is that to be able——

I am not arguing about that at the moment. He has other questions to answer.

Please clarify a point in regard to the scenario I have outlined where the individuals were living 10 km away. If a man gets married and his wife is 3 km away that rules him out.

Mr. Des Dowling

It does.

This points to the fact that this is rushed legislation that is not working and will not work. Just because a man married a lady who lived three miles away from him he automatically has to pay.

Mr. Des Dowling

There are cases where this will not be particularly attractive to individuals but the purpose of the legislation is to provide additional resources to supply local services. Judged against that——

Allow Mr. Dowling to finish. Then we shall get back to the double payment which we have to deal with.

In his presentation Mr. Dowling said that this money would be expended for local purposes. In another contribution he said it is up to the councils to decide where to use it. Which is it? Will the money generated be spent locally or is it up to the local authorities to decide where to spend it?

I shall give Mr. Dowling one more chance to answer that question and then we shall move on to other questions.

Mr. Des Dowling

It is to be spent locally on local services to be determined by the individual city and county councils. Each gets a certain portion and collects a certain portion. I have provided the total figures. We can supply the up-to-date figures that each council has collected so far if that is helpful to the committee. It is up to the individual councils to spend it as they wish on——

The people that I mentioned with holiday homes have absolutely no sewerage or water facilities and no services provided by the council.

Mr. Des Dowling

When I say services in this case, it is the totality of services that are available to anybody supplied by a local authority in their area. That obviously covers the normal road services, water supply in the towns that people access and all the things with which we are familiar that local authorities provide locally.

As the Ceann Comhairle would say, the Deputy will have an opportunity to raise that on the Adjournment or by tabling a question.

We should come back to this issue again because it is very important.

We should pursue the matter.

Mr. Des Dowling

To clarify, is the concern in regard to how the money is spent locally and who is the beneficiary of the services? What is the precise concern we are trying to deal with?

The beneficiary of the service is what I am talking about. Given that he has no mains water supply or mains sewerage what has he got for his money?

Mr. Des Dowling

We are talking about the generality of local authority services, in other words, everything from planning services, community services, library services, fire services, the whole panoply of local authority services that are available in the county and the locality concerned. The charge is to contribute to those services. That is not to say that it is specific to——

Sorry, Mr. Dowling will have to respond to the other questions. Deputy O'Sullivan will have to pursue the matter in another way because, unfortunately, we are not getting any further with it here. Members asked other questions.

Mr. Des Dowling

I hope we have come to a conclusion on the two kilometre rule.

I asked about the non-registered properties and how they are working.

Mr. Des Dowling

That is an issue. As the Vice Chairman identified, the legal position has changed. Previously properties which were rented were registered with local authorities but since the passage of the Residential Tenancies Act they are now registered with the Private Residential Tenancies Board. Such rental properties would have been among those which would have been identified originally as part of those properties to be liable to the charge. Local authorities have access to the Private Residential Tenancies Board——

I asked about the properties that are neither registered with the Private Residential Tenancies Board nor the local authority. How is the Department dealing with those?

Mr. Des Dowling

Liability falls on the individual concerned to pay the tax and the charge.

How are they being identified?

Mr. Des Dowling

There is a significant penalty if one does not pay.

No penalties have been imposed. How is the Department dealing with those who have not registered?

Mr. Des Dowling

The penalty remains as a charge on the property in the event of the property being sold. There is a very significant incentive for those in that category.

Therefore, they can only be clapped when the property is sold.

Mr. Des Dowling

That is certainly a part of it. We would expect local authorities to use their local knowledge to try to identify some of these properties. We live in a society where the first obligation is a self-declaring one to minimise the administration. I know the committee is concerned with administration and collection costs. It was never the intention that a €200 charge would be seen to be imposed on any potential property but rather to put the liability on the owner and then to incentivise payment and declaration by the penalties incorporated in the Act.

We must get back to discuss how to deal with the double payment. It is ridiculous to ask a person to pay the tax for a year and charge for nine months of the same year again. One cannot get away with that? How can we as a committee deal with that issue? Where was that provided for in the legislation?

Mr. Des Dowling

I understand the point the Chairman made about the frequency of payment within a number of months. The practical position was that the Oireachtas took a view that this charge arises on a calendar year on a certain liability date. Section 3(2) sets out the appropriate dates that arise.

Section 3(2) of what?

Mr. Des Dowling

Section 3(2) of the 2009 Act sets out the liability dates. The Oireachtas made this judgment.

That definitely slipped through without anybody here seeing it and without anybody in any party seeing it. It is a sleight of hand and will be counterproductive. The people who fully co-operated will be most aggrieved to be charged again for nine months and they simply will not pay. I have no doubt whatsoever about that.

Mr. Des Dowling

I hope the committee will encourage people to follow the legislation.

I am not encouraging anyone to do anything. I am only pointing out the reality. I am trying to find a way for the committee to deal with the problem that will arise when people are billed again. I will not encourage anyone to break the law.

I am trying to establish whether there is a specific date in the legislation by which the money has to be paid. Is it 31 March?

Mr. Des Dowling

For the full year of 2010, section 3(2) of the Act sets 31 March as the date.

That is amazing.

This bears out the theory that rushed legislation is bad legislation. The legislation was rushed through the Houses of the Oireachtas. Mr. Dowling indicated on page 2 of his presentation that owners are liable to pay an annual charge of €200 to their local authority. We have heard today that there are two conflicting dates. People have already paid €200 on 240,000 properties. They will be again liable to pay on 31 March. That means they will be paying €350 in total for the year.

Mr. Des Dowling

Yes.

That is the way I read it.

We know the situation. What does the committee propose?

Mr. Des Dowling

Can I offer another view? It takes time to put legislation together. The normal practice on budget legislation is that it is passed in the year in which the charges or changes arise. Those charges and changes in, for example, the tax system relate to the full calendar year of the year in question. The important issue is the calendar year. A certain regime applies in 2009 and a certain regime applies and in 2010. One can have a variation in dates within the system.

We understand what Mr. Dowling has said. What are we going to go about it?

What date was the legislation put in place?

Mr. Des Dowling

July of this year.

Does Mr. Dowling have a date?

Mr. Des Dowling

It was 14 July.

The charge was not to be enforced until September.

Mr. Des Dowling

The liability date was 31 July and the payment date was the end of September with a month's grace. It was well promoted. People knew about it from the budget and there was an intensive communications exercise during the period after the legislation was passed by the Oireachtas to alert people to it. There is a nine-month period.

What I want to try and find out is whether the Department will accept the situation as per section 3(2) of the Act. In what manner does the committee wish to follow it up? Do members wish to seek clarification from the Minister?

Yes. We should seek clarification from the Minister and express our concern.

The Minister is being invited before the committee next week.

He is coming to discuss another matter, namely, wetlands.

Mr. Des Dowling

Could we try to narrow down the concerns of members? When the legislation was passed it was identified that the charge would arise in each calendar year.

The concern of the committee is clear. The law expects people to pay for a good part of a year that they have already paid for. That is the concern of the committee and that is why we seek clarification. We object to the imposition of another charge to be paid by March.

People have three months to pay the charge. In the current year, 2009, people paid the charge by the end of October. People did not expect that payment would be due again until the end of October 2010. The problem is that people will incur a penalty for July, August, September and October if they do not pay. That is why I ask the question. Will people incur a penalty next year if they do not pay the charge until October?

Mr. Des Dowling

They will, but again this will be communicated clearly. It was communicated and that will be obvious from the——

I am concerned that people might incur a penalty.

Mr. Des Dowling

I hear the committee's view but the Oireachtas determined the legislation and this is the approach for the next calendar year.

To clarify, will the amount of money collected by each local authority be shown in its budget? Is it management only that will have a say in where and how the money is spent, or will councillors have a say?

Mr. Des Dowling

It would be part of the norm.

When the levies were imposed by local authorities, councillors decided——

I take it that the committee will have to write to the Minister to make its protest on the matter. Do members believe that should be done?

I am asking a question about a separate issue.

We will have to deal with this first matter and then we can address the next question. Is that agreed by the committee? Agreed.

Mr. Des Dowling

I ask the committee to consider the totality of the issue, which is to ensure sufficient funding for local services.

Mr. Dowling should not worry his little head about the committee. We will handle our own affairs in whatever manner members wish. I thank Mr. Dowling for his advice.

I agree with the Vice-Chairman's suggestion.

Is it agreed to contact the Minister to express our very grave concern about the fact that people will have to pay double for 2010?

Mr. Des Dowling

The individuals will not have to pay doubly in 2010. There is a charge in 2009 and another charge in 2010.

We will fight our own corner and see how we get on.

In fairness, people paid in 2009. Let us be honest and fair. They know they will have to pay again in 2010.

We made a decision on the matter.

People fully expected to pay again in September or October 2010.

The question I was asking was about the amount collected by each local authority. They are now doing their budgets. Will that money be shown in the budget of each local authority and will the members have any discretion on how the money is spent or is it for the officials only to decide? The example I gave related to planning levies. A decision was made in my local authority that a certain amount of it was for the county at large and another portion was to be spent in the local areas to which it applied. Will this charge be treated in the same way?

Mr. Des Dowling

It will be a matter for individual local authorities to determine. I assume the income will be included as part of the overall budget for the year. They will make a judgment as to what they expect to receive from the charge and they will incorporate it as part of the revenue. There is no restriction from a legal viewpoint as to how the income is treated. It will be part of the reserved function of the authority to make its budget and to make an assumption on the funds that will be available to them from that source. There is no restriction as to how local authorities spend that income within the current budget.

I take it that managers will take it into account in presenting the budget and allocate it as they see fit.

Mr. Des Dowling

For approval by the members.

Nothing changes when that happens.

There are local authorities around the country with a low rate base, for example, Leitrim and Longford. They derive 7% to 8% of their income from commercial or business rates. Anomalies will arise in terms of smaller counties as less revenue will be generated in such counties. Will a fair system be in place? Will the revenue go back to a central fund and then be distributed equally per head of population?

Mr. Des Dowling

That is the other side of the question asked earlier as to whether authorities have full control over the funds, which they have. By virtue of that, some authorities receive more than others. The legislation does not provide for the Minister or anybody else to say the funds collected in one authority should be re-channelled or distributed to another. The Deputy is correct that some authorities, particularly those in whose jurisdictions there are many rental properties, will derive more from the charge than others. The latter include those responsible for more rural counties. This is clear in the returns received from county councils. The Deputy's county did not benefit as much from the charge as others because it does not have the same number of liable properties. If we were to get into the business of redistributing the funds, it would run counter to the principle of raising and spending revenue locally.

I apologise if my question has already been asked and for missing the start of the meeting. In respect of how many properties has the charge not been paid? What amount is owed?

Mr. Des Dowling

We cannot determine that with precision because it is the responsibility of the owner of a property to determine liability. When the legislation was being passed, we envisaged at least 100,000 properties would fall to be liable. We know on the basis of the funds collected thus far that there are at least 240,000 properties covered, and there may be more. The CSO identified vacant properties but it is impossible to say whether all of them will be liable. We have been reluctant to determine the end point because of the imponderables, namely, the responsibility of the owner to determine liability and the fact that there has not been a property tax of this kind in the past. We have not had reason to have information at local level on the number of properties. We are ahead of the original estimate, which is good in terms of raising funds. We hope that as people become familiar with the system, we will build on the performance of local authorities.

That concludes our questioning. I thank Mr. Dowling for his informative presentation. Before we adjourn, I will clarify what we are doing. We have decided to write to the Minister to express concern over the impression that is being given of a double charge.

To be quite honest, people are not expecting this.

There is no way people will pay twice for the one service. We have decided that when people paid their charge to the end of October, they were only paying for the period to that date. They will be liable in March for all of 2010. We are protesting against this and seeking clarification from the Minister. Is that agreed?

On that point, the fee should not be made payable until the date on which it was paid this year, given the penalties that are to apply.

That is the argument being made by the committee but not the one Mr. Dowling was accepting on behalf of the Department.

We will adjourn until 2 p.m. next Tuesday if the Minister is available. The meeting at 3.30 p.m. will proceed as normal.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.45 a.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 1 December 2009.
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