JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Tuesday, 15 Dec 2009

Business of Joint Committee.

Chairman

The minutes of the meeting of 1 December 2009 have been circulated. Are they agreed? Agreed.

The first item of correspondence, No. 678 of 2009, is a note from the parliamentary legal adviser on the powers of committees in the event of public inquiries. I suggest that it be noted. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. 682 is a newsletter from GLOBE International. It is noted.

No. 683 is a list of decisions taken by the Joint Committee on European Scrutiny. No action is required by us.

No. 684, from An Bord Pleanála, is a reply to queries raised at a meeting with the board on 28 October 2009. It lists the details of the decisions and appeals of all 88 planning authorities, including urban councils. We do not need 88 separate planning authorities. I will leave my comments on this for Second Stage of the planning Bill. There is useful information in the reply if members want to look at it. It is noted.

No. 685 is a letter from the Joint Committee on Transport. Deputy Frank Feighan requested the assistance of our committee regarding a bridge at Castlereagh. We will refer the document to the Department for a response.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

Those concerned are desperate for help to get a bridge repaired and operational. The community is desperate for somebody to do this.

Senator Paudie Coffey

The correspondence states it is a matter for Iarnród Éireann. Perhaps we should ask it for a response also.

Chairman

And Roscommon County Council.

Senator Paudie Coffey

Yes. Between them they should sort it out.

Chairman

We will write to Iarnród Éireann and Roscommon County Council for a response. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. 686 is on electoral reform. It is an invitation to a meeting in UCC to discuss electoral reform in the context of local government elections.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

This letter from UCC follows on from a recent visit to UCC by the Joint Committee on the Constitution about three weeks ago. It was a very successful evening. The committee held a meeting at the university in open session. There were several reports by different experts in the field and the relevant department in the university provided student submissions.

The evening was extraordinarily successful and very beneficial to the campus. It is very beneficial to the Houses of the Oireachtas for a committee to visit an institution such as UCC and have a larger audience than it usually has at its meetings. The visit to Cork provided very informed and meaningful insight into how people outside mainstream politics view politics. I suggest we respond to UCC. The department that wrote to us is possibly the leading department in the country with regard to local government reform and it has produced several major publications. We should move towards putting a schedule in place for 2010 to accommodate another visit.

Chairman

Would it be in UCC?

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

It would be in the Aula Maxima in UCC.

Chairman

Is the Deputy proposing that a cross-party representative group from the committee visit?

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

Yes.

Chairman

We will try to organise a visit.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

The last visit was held on a Thursday evening in UCC and was extremely well organised. It began at approximately 8 p.m. and finished at 9.45 p.m. The members of the committee gave their views on what they had heard over the course of the evening. It was one of the most enjoyable committee meetings I have attended as a Member of the Dáil. It was very engaging and informative.

Chairman

Did many attend?

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

It was the week of the floods in Cork, yet there were approximately 80 people in attendance. UCC was opened specifically on the evening to accommodate the committee and would have been closed otherwise.

Chairman

Did many Oireachtas Members travel to the event?

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

There were four or five. Members from the local constituency were all invited. Members of this committee could make up a quorum at the next meeting.

Chairman

Is it agreed that we write to UCC along those lines? Agreed.

No. 687, concerning the National Waste Report 2008, is in reply to our letter on waste packaging issues. It is noted. I am sure the matter will be on our work programme again next year.

No. 688 concerns the environmental enforcement report for the period 2006 to 2008. It is noted. We can raise the matter with the EPA when it is next before the committee.

No. 689 is a reply in respect of queries raised by Deputy Christy O'Sullivan regarding the appointment of returning officers.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

We have received a fairly comprehensive report on this matter but unfortunately the issue I raised has not been addressed. In the case of County Cork, the county sheriff is the local returning officer who appoints presiding officers for polling stations. To whom is he responsible? The report states they are independent in the performance of their duties. Does that mean they are accountable to no one?

Take a small village in west Cork where someone has been presiding at a polling station for 20 years and, for no reason, he or she is dropped from that post. Rumours go around about them having done something wrong. In that particular instance, the person would have no recourse to a hearing or given a reason as to why he or she was dropped from the post.

Chairman

The committee could write to the sheriff to outline the procedures for appointing new presiding officers. However, that might be unhelpful in this case.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

At this stage I do not want to mention anyone in particular.

Chairman

It may have happened in other places as well as in Cork.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

Obviously, the sheriff would be responsible for all of Cork county. How does he decide someone can be dropped as a presiding officer and appoint someone else? If he can do so without giving any reason, then there is something seriously wrong. No one should have that kind of power and be a law unto himself.

Chairman

I presume the only sanction is that as the Minister appoints returning officers, he can withdraw their appointment.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

Who appoints the sheriff?

Chairman

I think the Minister appoints the sheriff as the returning officer.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

That has not been clarified in the response we got from the Department. The Department claims it has no responsibility whatsoever when it comes to elections, presiding officers and returning officers and anyone else involved. Who appoints the returning officer?

Chairman

Nobody.

Deputy Johnny Brady

There was a time when the Government of the day appointed them. Now, I understand an interview is held.

Chairman

The county registrar automatically gets the job in our area.

Deputy Phil Hogan

Usually it is the country registrar for a Dáil election and a local authority official for a council election.

Deputy Johnny Brady

It involved the county secretary but there is a new name for that now.

Deputy Phil Hogan

The committee could write to the Department seeking clarification as to whom a county registrar is accountable.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

The sheriff in this case is the local returning officer. I want to establish how he was appointed.

Chairman

That will involve writing to the Department of Finance.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

Second, to whom is he responsible when appointed? How can he justify dropping an experienced person from his panel without reason?

Chairman

We will go back to the Minister again on that. We will also write a similar letter to the Minister for Finance. I know that at the end of each election the returning officer gets paid by the Department of Finance.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

To follow on from Deputy O'Sullivan's point, the appointment of polling clerks and presiding officers should be more transparent. I have always noted the same people in these roles in the elections in my area. They usually are officials of the local authority and health board. Maybe we should focus more on the unemployed and those on social welfare getting these jobs. It would be a good day's salary for them.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

As far as I am aware, I have never heard yet of a presiding officer being interviewed for the job or drilled in what they are supposed to do at a polling station. I am also concerned about this issue and it should be included in correspondence to the Department.

Why can there not be a list of possible candidates rather than this closed shop?

Deputy Phil Hogan

There is no harm in having one's name on the list.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

Rumours begin when someone is dropped having been in a position for 20 years and never found to have done anything wrong.

Deputy Johnny Brady

There are many good people unemployed for the past year or two. It is a pity, as Deputy Fitzpatrick said, that those kinds of people and third level students, who used to get summer work, cannot earn a few bob from doing this job. As Deputy Fitzpatrick said, the same people are doing it all the time, many of whom already have jobs.

Chairman

We will take it up with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government and the Minister for Finance.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

Are we also writing to the Cork county sheriff about this?

Chairman

If the Deputy wishes but I will write to the two Ministers first.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

Whatever the Chairman believes is appropriate.

Chairman

We can but it may be getting too specific about this particular sheriff. I would like to get my facts from the Department of Finance before I contact the sheriff.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

I have no problem with contacting the sheriff now.

Chairman

Let us get the reply from the Department of Finance on its dealings with the sheriff. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The following items will be noted: European world newsletter, the European urban network knowledge; an 18 month programme for the future Spanish-Belgian-Hungarian Presidency of the EU; ministerial press release on the spending of €2.3 billion in the Department; press release on the establishment of a review group on cost-base expenditure on numbers employed in local authorities; and a request by Deputy Noel O'Flynn to hold a meeting about the recent flooding in Cork with the ESB and city and county councils to review their emergency plans.

I propose that the first meeting in January will deal with the flooding issue, and we shall include this in that meeting. The next item is a reply to a letter dated 22 September, where we requested the Minister to put a system in place whereby his Department is automatically notified of all central government notices issuing to the local government authority sector, and this reply is unsatisfactory. We have a system in place with the Department to the effect that a copy of all statutory instruments circulated to local authorities should be copied to the committee, and that is happening. However, we discovered last year that other Departments such as the Department of Transport were also issuing circulars to local authorities, and we asked the Department to ensure we got copies of all these and to introduce a system whereby it would get copies of material being circulated to local authorities. It transpired the Department did not even know what was going to their own local authorities, so we suggested it might be worth while putting such a system in place and giving us copies. The Minister has replied saying he has requested the Department to write to all other Departments to highlight the issue, and inviting them all to write back to the committee. That is nonsense. The onus is on the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to be aware of all circulars issuing to local authorities and we want a copy. That is the Civil Service gone utterly mad. A letter is sent to 15 Departments and it is forgotten whether it happens or not. They will forget about it and staff will change.

We shall write back to the Minister saying that we want him to implement what we requested in the first place.

The next item is circular FYI- DAU 1/09, submission of development plans, local area plans, variations and material amendments to both and associated draft plans to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.

Deputy Phil Hogan

On that item, there is a great deal of confusion in every local authority about what was sent out to them by circular in terms of population targets. The planning legislation will come back to the Dáil at the end of January. Could we get some detail for all local authorities on what population targets were sent out by circular to each of them. If we could get this information well in advance of the planning legislation, it would give us a fair idea of the consistencies and inconsistencies that exist and the problems that are likely to arise in the adoption of regional planning guidelines.

All regional authorities are meeting at the moment to discuss draft guidelines. They are operating in a vacuum and do not know of the existence of these circulars. Before they are adopted by the regional authorities in January or February we might be able to assist these people to come to some rational conclusion. If it goes through in the present formation, as public representatives we shall have a great many problems in planning terms.

Chairman

We will agree and we shall ask for those details to be sent to the committee as quickly as possible.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I will give the committee members an example. Carlow county council SPC came to see us recently and met all the Oireachtas Members from Carlow-Kilkenny and Wicklow. The initial view of the Carlow County Council officials was that only 67 houses would be allowed to be built outside Carlow town over the next seven years. That is something I would not agree with and neither would most Members of the Oireachtas. If that is the type of policy perspective that is being replicated around the country based on population targets, then many of us are not aware of the detail. I rang my county manager in Kilkenny and he tried to fob me off as regards having to give information to the Minister, so a special meeting between the council and Oireachtas Members has been arranged for 8 January to discuss the implications of the Bill based on the circulars that have been sent out.

If this committee needs to have amendments on Committee Stage we need to know why we are proposing them and to have full and transparent information. I suspect a good deal of information is being sent to local authorities behind our backs that we are not aware of in this matter. I know the circulars are being distributed, but they do not give the specific details on the allowed population targets, gateways, hubs, villages, towns and so on over the next seven years.

Chairman

They are probably based on the planning guidelines for each of the regions.

Deputy Phil Hogan

We all know public representatives on the regional authorities and they can be bamboozled by a great deal of the material that comes before them. They are getting general principles and broad strokes but what is important are the implications of each local development plan. As Oireachtas Members we are trying to untie a knot that has been tied without our knowledge and we need to head this off if we can.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

I support that and believe this is serious. This committee should be able to get all that material, just as councils get it. It is important for the committee to be on top of events. At the moment we are not getting that type of information.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I support what Deputy O'Sullivan says. The directors of services and planning were brought together on two occasions in the past three or four weeks and these Department officials shifted ground, big time, because they were being challenged by the assertions on the implications of the population targets. It is fine for major urban areas, but if one lives in an area where there is a gateway and a hub, the situation is different. Kilkenny, for example, has a hub status, but the gateway is Waterford, so part of the county development plan's population target has to give ground to Waterford. The same will happen in Meath, Kildare and Wicklow, so we need to have a little chat about these matters. I do not believe people are aware of the implications.

Deputy Johnny Brady

I support everything Deputy Hogan said. Shoving everybody into bigger towns will eventually mean there will be very little development in villages and small towns. I have seen this in my area, where schools were almost closing down because of the lack of development. The four-teacher school in my village now has only 27 students. Now, because of new development it recently had a new extension, but this will present a serious problem for a great many schools in rural Ireland, and public representatives including councillors and Oireachtas Members should ensure this does not happen. Years ago planners wanted everybody in rural Ireland to go into the local town. They did not want rural planning, yet if we did not have it, many of those areas would be dead by now.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I want to make a final point without labouring the issue. The people who will ultimately get it in the neck are the members of this committee and the councillors will be wondering what we were doing. Also, national policy will be micro-managed from the Customs House down to local authority level unless we put in the necessary changes now to ensure that this will not happen. Regardless of who the incumbent Minister is, the model of a Minister and departmental officials operating as a one man band while enshrining in legislation a national spatial strategy and the regional planning guidelines, will not work in terms of the flexibility needed in every county or region as regards the local area plan or the local development plan. The councillors will wonder where we were. We are now aware of the situation, so it would be great if we can do something about it.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I welcome Deputy Hogan's comments on his local authority and the fact that a meeting is being held to discuss the issue. This is very important and perhaps it is a message that should be sent to all local authorities. They should meet their Oireachtas Members to tease out these significant issues. There are villages in my constituency now classified as settlements. When that was done in the last development plan everyone believed these were being earmarked as potential areas of development, whether housing, industry or whatever. Now, however, with this new thing on population growth, that is not the case. People have bought land within these settlements, and I am not speaking about developers. One local man with a small holding of land, saw the opportunity to build a few houses and sell them. Now he can do nothing, however, and is broke.

We will lose out as well in so far as there was some community gain from such developments in these settlements and they were providing the infrastructure needed. It meant that a rural village in Kildare that did not have water or sewage treatment plants got the opportunity under this plan to get them. If the Minister's new guidelines on population are enforced, however, such places will not get water and sewage treatment plants and neither will they have the schools or anything else. This is a much bigger issue than people realise.

Chairman

Is that agreed? Are there further comments?

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

I agree. Many of these issues should be teased out a little further rather than arrive on the desk as a fait accompli.

Chairman

Is Deputy O'Sullivan agreed? Grand. We are all very much in agreement and will proceed to ask for that information as quickly as possible. The next item is circular No. LGP 1809, a release on the second instalment of the national disability strategy. Next is EL 16/2009, a circular to local authorities about subsistence allowances for travelling abroad. The next item is EL 15/2009, about worksharing and social insurance contributions.

Before we finish correspondence I draw members' attention to the Association of Municipal Authorities of Ireland, AMAI, spring conference in Sligo next February. At our last meeting we agreed to attend the conference and seek estimates of costs. I understand from the convenors that Deputy Lynch and Senators Coffey and Glynn are interested in attending. Is it agreed that the three members should represent the committee, with the clerk? Have we an estimate? The estimate for travel is €549, to include hotel, subsistence and registration — which is the main part of the cost — and mileage allowance.

On the subject of travel, the working group of committee Chairpersons has agreed to sanction the attendance of two members at the Vancouver conference in March 2010. However, this sanction is contingent on economy class flight tickets being used and arrangements will be made on that basis. I believe that is agreed.

The next item is 2010. I will take the short cut here and ask anybody who has any suggestions to forward them to the clerk or make them now. The plan is to start our first meeting with the subject of the recent flooding and to deal with issues that arose as a result of the floods. We may have a couple of meetings on that subject.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

To kick the ball off, we have a fair bit of work to do if we deal with issues relating to flooding and planning and development.

Chairman

That will keep us going until spring.

Deputy Phil Hogan

We have a great deal of work.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

An international review of waste policy was published recently which, depending on which way the Minister decides, will have implications for waste collection and management in each local authority.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

There is also to be the publication of the White Paper on local government. We expect all these before June or July.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

There are planning issues and appeals to an Bord Pleanála, especially recent appeals where the goalposts were changed with regard to decisions that were made.

Chairman

By whom?

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

These were by the inspectors and the board. There have been split decisions. I shall give an example. They are now looking at planning applications for houses that are two or three miles outside a village and refer to unavailability of lighting and footpaths as a reason for not granting the permission. I have one such letter in my possession. It is absolutely ridiculous.

Another point to consider is the make-up of An Bord Pleanála and who sits on that board. It is my understanding that nobody on that board now represents rural Ireland. These are issues we must tease out because they will have serious implications for people living in rural Ireland in the future.

Chairman

The planning bill allows for a quorum of only two board members to make decisions on many issues. It is in the legislation.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

We should get some details on how these people are appointed to the boards, where they have been in their past life and what they were doing. It is very important.

Chairman

We will obtain that information, definitely.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

The entire area of planning and planning development charges must be looked at very seriously. I am aware of a situation in Sligo where development took place. A car park was built, with perhaps 25 shops, which is currently coming under pressure. The developers want to put food outlets into the centre and although the car park is only used to 20% or 25% capacity except on Saturday when there is 70% capacity, they are being asked to pay a parking contribution of €500,000 to amalgamate about seven units and turn them into a supermarket where food can be sold. In the present climate any bank would laugh those people out the door.

Chairman

How many spaces are there?

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

There are 370 spaces.

Chairman

They are there already.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

They are there already but the supermarket activity is a change of use and probably would require extra parking. The parking is there and not even being used at present, apart from two hours. The proof and evidence for that is there, yet these people are being asked for a €500,000 parking contribution because of a change of use.

Chairman

Was that in accordance with the approved scheme in the county, or is it a special levy?

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

I understand it is a special levy.

Chairman

They can be appealed to An Bord Pleanála as special levies and the board is very good at throwing special levies out now. Unless the special levies are approved by the members they are very quick to throw them out.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

It is very unfair to ask people for a contribution because of a change of use when there is an existing car park, provided by the very people who face a parking charge of €500,000. That is half a million euro.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I support Deputy Scanlon here. This issue has come to my attention also, in my local authority area. The local authorities are going out of their way to gather an income on the basis of change of use and interpret the planning Bill quite narrowly to achieve that objective. It is exactly along the lines of what Deputy Scanlon describes. Because it is a change of use, even though there are existing car parking spaces the authority wishes to charge again for all those spaces because a different proposition is going in. We should look at the development charge programme and have a little bit of consistency in terms of being pro-employment. No developer will go into a bank now with a bill of €500,000 for development charges. They would not be long before being told where to go.

Chairman

This will kill it.

Deputy Phil Hogan

It is happening not only in Sligo. It is an area in which the county and city managers association should take a more proactive role. They should tell their officials to be a little more flexible in the present climate to create opportunities for employment and maintain existing employment.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

It is not that we will start working on our work programme today and go into every section and part of it. I understand we need scope and that we need not book every committee meeting on to a work programme leaving ourselves without flexibility to deal with issues as they arise. However, there are some matters that will pop up next year. There is the review of the Residential Tenancies Act concerning which I believe the Minister of State, Deputy Finneran, proposes introducing legislation towards the end of next year. As a committee we should have a role and input into that review. Perhaps in early or late spring we might ask the Minister to present his thinking on the issue and have a report.

In the budget last week there was mention of broadening the tax base, much of that to come by way of local authorities becoming the revenue-raising entities in question, whether for property tax or water charges. We should ask the relevant Departments to update the committee on how their views on broadening the tax base are developing so that we may examine how those issues are proceeding.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I shall be very brief. I welcome the work programme which is very good. If we get through half of it in the current year we will do very well. I would like to add something to be part of our programme. As the Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, we should ask the officials in that Department how we might highlight the issue of provision of jobs by the Department. Concerning heritage, for example, in bygone days there was FÁS, and AnCo before it, which did tremendous work. To this day, the work they did, such as the restoration of buildings and walls, is still there. There is still a great deal of that type of work to be done and we are losing our heritage by not doing it. It would create employment that might bring in a very worthwhile income for low-income families. We should question the officials in the Department on how we, as a committee, might highlight the job potential in these schemes and programmes.

Deputy Johnny Brady

Deputy Scanlon raised a question regarding An Bord Pleanála. My colleague from County Kildare, Deputy Fitzpatrick would know about this even though it concerns County Meath and is no longer in my constituency. An Bord Pleanála refused a ten-year commission for constructing a "smart park" to comprise education, research and technology use, with employment, residential and associated site works. That would have created thousands of jobs in the area which is located in County Meath but is on the Kildare border, very close to Maynooth College.

It is outrageous given this is something that will create a great deal of employment. An Bord Pleanála has no interest in jobs any more or the need to create jobs, especially now. I read about the matter in the local newspaper. Last week, I spoke to a local councillor, Mr. Brian Fitzgerald, in the House. He was here with a delegation to meet various parties. It annoys me very much to see such applications being refused outright. No consideration was given to the number of young people who will be affected. This morning at 8.30 a.m. I dropped off my son in Maynooth and I saw many young people there coming to the end of their full time education. They are looking for jobs. This proposal would be very beneficial to counties Meath, Kildare, Westmeath and Dublin. It is outrageous that An Bord Pleanála has not taken into consideration the need for jobs in our county and others.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I support the remarks of Deputy Brady. I was briefed on that decision last week by Councillor Fitzgerald and the development company. It is a joint venture between NUI Maynooth and Carton House. From what I have been informed, it appears rather disturbing. Something has changed in the policy of An Bord Pleanála in the past 12 months and it is rather disturbing. We used to believe Deputy O'Sullivan was too hard on the organisation, but he is not. There is scope for reaching an outcome with regard to this application and it could serve as a litmus test for the policy change. I understand the application was turned down on the grounds of heritage. In my experience, if it is a case of interference with heritage, one should seek further information from the client with a view to ensuring heritage policy and buildings of heritage are suitably addressed, or that there is compatibility in terms of the treatment of heritage by the project. However, from my perusal of the matter the refusal does not appear to have much to do with heritage, it appears to have something to do with other disturbing policies.

We should consider the contents and the main points of the decision should be sent to us in correspondence before the next meeting with a view to examining the real reasons for the refusal.

Chairman

They can be taken from the website.

Deputy Phil Hogan

The material should be put with correspondence for the next meeting. That would allow us the opportunity to hold a brief discussion on the matter.

Chairman

Should we make the inspector's report available?

Deputy Phil Hogan

Yes.

Chairman

I will ask one of the members who is familiar with the case to give the details to the committee staff. Once the reference number is available we can print it from the website and have it for Members.

Deputy Michael Fitzpatrick

I have an interest in this case as well. Not only did it involve a partnership between the university, industry and local business, but it also involved a partnership between two local authorities. While the facilities were mostly in County Meath, the services were to be provided by Kildare County Council and it was a real breakthrough for us to be given these services, which were limited enough in Kildare, by Meath County Council. This was the best project of 2009 and there was great interest in it. The university was linked to the project and I am concerned those behind this project will be gone if it is not dealt with very quickly. I would welcome any intervention by this committee to resolve the issues. It would be wonderful if we could do something; it would be a great stroke for everyone.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

From glancing through the papers there appears to be a great deal of detail and that makes it all the better. I refer to the matter of statutory instruments. The papers indicate the joint committee will endeavour to monitor statutory instruments and it is vital that this is the case because we do not know what will come down the line. It is very important we do so.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

I refer to An Bord Pleanála and the scheme referred to. While political correctness is fine and great we must begin to consider people, jobs and finding work for people. It annoys me that an inspector can inspect a particular planning application and recommend granting it. Then, a board which has no experience of the area and which has not seen the site — although it may have examined the plans — can overrule the inspector who visited the site. The inspector may recommend granting permission but the board can overturn his decisions and refuse it. That process is wrong. In fairness to the people applying for planning permission, the process is very expensive at the moment. Costs include paying the architect, those who put together the application, charges and everything else. It is a shame for such a proposal to be turned down. It could create 500 or 600 jobs in the coming three or four years. We cannot afford such nonsense any more.

Deputy Christy O’Sullivan

There is a similar situation in my neck of the woods. There was a planning application for a yachting marina. Permission was granted for 192 berths by Cork County Council. An Bord Pleanála then recommended it should be scaled down to 100 berths. The problem is that there are already 100 boats using the facilities. It would not be a viable proposition if permission is not granted for 192 berths. It is another case of the board not taking anything else into consideration, including the implications for jobs. In west Cork and Courtmacsherry we are completely dependent on tourism. A perfectly viable proposition has been shot down for trivial reasons.

Chairman

We will certainly have dealings with An Bord Pleanála in the coming year.

Deputy Johnny Brady

An Bord Pleanála takes advice from An Taisce rather than from such people as us and those interested in creating employment in our counties. That is the problem.

Chairman

This is simply a discussion on the work programme and we will consider finalising it in the new year. When the committee returns we will meet Mr. Seán Hogan, national director of the fire and emergency management committee, to discuss flooding along with officials from the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. I propose several meetings to discuss flooding in January. I have not met the man. I have only seen him on television in recent times.

Deputy Phil Hogan

He is no relation.

Chairman

I wish everyone a happy Christmas and new year.

The joint committee adjourned at 4.25 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 12 January 2010.