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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, HERITAGE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT debate -
Tuesday, 30 Mar 2010

Dog Breeding Establishments Bill 2009: Discussion with Canine Breeders of Ireland.

Item No. 3 is the Dog Breeding Establishments Bill 2009. Members will recall a request from the Canine Breeders of Ireland to discuss with us concerns regarding the dog breeding legislation currently before the Oireachtas. I welcome Mr. David Hamilton, secretary of the Canine Breeders of Ireland, Mr. Michael McKay, chairman, Mr. Paddy Dooley, treasurer and Mr. John Cosgrove, member.

We will take a brief presentation from witnesses after which there will be a question and answer session. I remind the delegates that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same legal privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. I remind members of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Mr. David Hamilton

I thank the Chairman. My presentation is on the Canine Breeders of Ireland, CBI, and its role in the industry. With over 600 members representing an industry estimated to be worth over €300 million annually to the economy, we consider ourselves the largest organisation of our kind. At present our membership is mostly made up of commercial dog breeding establishments. We have been overwhelmed by the interest from breeders, politicians and the media and we hope to launch our website in the very near future. This is expected to boost membership significantly and to bring up many more topics about which breeders are concerned.

We intend to use the CBI to promote a code of ethics which members must abide by and, through engagement with dog breeders, we will improve our industry and make it more open and acceptable to the public. Currently, if a dog breeder wishes to become a full member of the CBI he or she must have his or her kennels certified by a veterinary surgeon. The CBI has met extensively with relevant groups and enjoys the support of both the IFA and the Irish Kennel Club, IKC.

The term "puppy farmer" is a derogatory term. It has been interpreted for us by a leading charity worker as meaning "an ongoing and serious abuse of animal welfare" and operators have been characterised as being "unscrupulous exploiters of animals". The same source has said "puppy farming is an abuse of animals for profit". We hope the committee members will understand that they are not meeting puppy farmers and that we find this term offensive. As dog breeders, we rely on our dogs to feed our families. It is ridiculous to suggest that one can abuse animals and run a successful, profitable kennel. Like many others, we detest animal cruelty and wish to see prosecutions where possible. We do not appreciate media stories which further the causes of animal rights activists but do serious damage to the image of Irish dog breeders. Trial by media is not justice. The public is of the opinion that our country is littered with puppy farms where animals live in squalid conditions and that dogs should be purchased not from licensed breeding establishments but rather from what we would term "hobby breeders". This is a nonsense and we intend, together with the media, to dispel that myth.

There is a perception that it is wrong to breed a dog for profit. However, we regard it as one of our fundamental rights to be able to breed a dog and sell the offspring. Breeding a dog should not have a negative effect on its welfare. The vast majority of dogs produced are bred in commercial breeding establishments where operators specialise in dog breeding. These are people with expertise and experience who know how to breed dogs well. The latest protocols are used and our members are at the forefront of quality dog breeding. Increasingly, dogs in the general population are neutered and are domestic pets that are not bred, nor would their owners know how to breed them. Pet production is being centralised to breeding establishments where animals are bred to meet the market's needs. This is the correct course and better regulation would ensure a more professional industry with fewer problems for the public from amateur breeders.

While many breeders already keep their animals and their premises to a high standard, it would be helpful to have broad guidance so that a breeder can move forward with his or her business secure in the knowledge that he or she is acting properly. Many kennel owners throughout the country are preparing for new legislation but have no guidance as to what this might mean. In the meantime they can only use best practice. With a lead-in time of three months, we have serious concerns. The 2005 report by the working group on dog breeding establishments stated:

The group recommends that the new dog breeding registration system be introduced on a phased basis using an improvement notice model to avoid the creation of a surplus of dogs caused by the closure of substandard dog breeding establishments. This lead-in time would allow dog breeding establishments to meet the necessary standards and avoid the problem of having to dispose of a number of unwanted dogs.

This seems like common sense but the Minister has chosen to ignore it.

Many industries are supported and regulated by the Government and we question why we are treated differently. Our members have built an industry with little or no input from Government. Licensed premises could be assisted with improvements to marketing, kennelling, veterinary and isolation facilities which would benefit the welfare of the animals. Surely this is an area where grant funding would be both deserved and appropriate.

The surplus of strays reported is something which causes surprise among our members. There is no surplus of pedigree or desirable dogs. There is a ready home for quality pets and they have a residual monetary value. We question the figures presented for strays in Ireland. Are these figures taken from solely Government-owned and run kennels? We are aware of a massive movement of dogs between different charity and rescue organisations. When charities release figures for the numbers of dogs rehomed, do they also count those which they sell on to other charities? Which breeds of dogs are most likely to be euthanised in dog pounds? From our own experience, it seems predominately to be mongrels, collies and greyhounds. These are dogs with a very low or no monetary value which are not bred commercially.

With a dog population of 690,000 and an average lifespan of 13 years, that leaves 50,000 Irish dogs dying of old age every year. The Government figures tell us that 10,000 dogs were euthanised in Ireland in 2008 in both Government and charity-run kennels. Many dog owners use the dog warden service as a cheap way of disposing of unwanted or old dogs. We have included a table in our document setting out the Government figures. I draw members' attention in particular to the figures for dogs surrendered and collected and for those put to sleep.

The number of dogs reported as being destroyed each year is abhorrent. Given a dog population of approximately 700,000, 10,000 dogs being destroyed is one dog in every 70 annually. Dogs Trust in Ireland must be particularly commended on its excellent work in rehoming suitable dogs. Its policy of no euthanasia is an excellent one and the CBI hopes to work with such groups in the future.

Commercial dog breeders do not accept responsibility for Ireland's strays. Our dogs have a monetary value throughout their lives and if they are unlucky enough to find themselves in a dog pound, they are usually very quickly rehomed. In 2006, Mr. Mark Beazley of the ISPCA stated, "Another problem is that with working dogs, owners are often hoping to breed the perfect sheep dog, though of course that doesn't happen, and I would estimate that 70% to 80% of those that end up in pounds are collies or crossbred pups".

The island of Ireland has a population of some 6 million compared with a population of 60 million in Great Britain. It is entirely logical that we would meet the demand created by such a volume of people. Britain does not breed enough of its own dogs to supply its markets. We have a rural economy particularly well suited to dog breeding and it is in the best interests of the Irish economy that these exports continue not only to the United Kingdom but worldwide. Charities freely admit shipping dogs to the same market, that they receive funding for same and that there is a shortage of dogs in Britain. By our estimates, Britain needs 500,000 puppies per year to maintain its existing dog population. We have estimated commercial dog exports from both Northern Ireland and the Republic to be around 45,000 annually. This does not count those exported by charities and sanctuaries.

The market in Great Britain is supplied by several sources. There are home bred dogs which in many cases are sold with endorsed pedigrees at a premium price. Our main competition is from Welsh dog breeders. The Welsh Assembly Government saw fit to advise farmers to diversify into dog breeding with the result that Wales became a main centre for dog kennels. This may be where the term "puppy farmer" originated. We supply home bred dogs to licensed premises throughout Britain and we face tough market conditions at every stage. We demand better regulation and thus protection so that we might advertise our dogs with some sense of pride about the country in which they are bred. If we do not supply these dogs, someone else will. We would like to openly state that our dogs are bred in Ireland and that this would be a strong selling point.

Dogs are living animals and puppies are baby animals. The CBI has been looking into figures showing the percentage of problems in puppies sold to the public from commercial kennels. By our estimates, problems range from 0% to 5%, 5% being the top end of the scale. By contrast, a Queen's University study showed 53.7% of dogs had an ailment after being bought from the USPCA. It is clear who the professionals are. We have circulated these reports along with our presentation. Dogs bred by our members are not bred for show but for health and functionality, so abnormalities are not bred into the stock. That function is to be a healthy and happy pet.

We cannot spend enough time explaining the issue of protectionism and discrimination to the committee. Many dog breeders in Great Britain are territorial about breeding dogs. They sell dogs at a premium and endorse pedigree papers. Our exported dogs sell on quality and on price. When our dogs are offered for sale in an area they will usually bring freedom to the market, allowing the public to obtain pets on much more reasonable terms. However, existing breeders who have enjoyed a free rein prior to this usually become very militant and protectionist, demanding of local authorities that these imported dogs be removed immediately, that they must have been mistreated and are cheap and therefore interior. This is a nonsense. It is not that the incidence of problems in exported dogs is any greater than in locally-bred dogs but that these breeders cannot take the competition. They are assisted in this by many media-friendly charities which dovetail across the Irish Sea and also compete with us to supply dogs, both adults and puppies, to the British market.

Dogs have been exported from Ireland for generations. There is nothing wrong with breeding and exporting dogs provided suitable welfare standards are applied. Never in our history has this job been harder. We can only sell dogs based on our own reputations. Once a dog is identified as coming from Ireland it is immediately labelled as a cheap and inferior import. This was not always the case. At one time it was a major selling point that a dog was bred in Ireland. We as an industry are being constantly damaged at home and abroad by charities and animal rights activists who highlight the failures of a few while damning an entire industry and obtaining donations and legacies as a result of the media storm created. Due to this perception, many of our breeders are hesitant to reveal their occupations. The vast majority of commercial dog premises are operated under strict veterinary guidelines but this fact is often ignored. While there have been cases where poor standards have been applied and bad practice used, this is an extremely small minority which has been used by our competitors to tarnish an entire industry.

We desperately need support and guidance on how to proceed. We must bring dog breeding out of the shadows and ensure it is recognised as a legitimate business and an honest and respectable profession. The Government should support our exports and support a business which pays tax, provides employment and is a source of revenue throughout the economy. We are proud of our produce and we want everyone else to feel the same.

At present, breeding establishments are inspected by dog wardens and county vets from the local councils. In some cases wardens do a very good job but most seem to be thoroughly under-qualified and overwhelmed. To be asked to police both a pet owner with one dog and a commercial establishment with possibly hundreds of dogs is unreasonable. We have heard reports of some wardens coming to inspect licensed premises accompanied by the local charity worker. This is totally unacceptable as charity workers have no role on Government-licensed premises and most are fundamentally opposed to the breeding of dogs for profit.

Some wardens are openly activists and this is a major issue for members of the Canine Breeders of Ireland, CBI. We expect and deserve a fair and even approach throughout the country. Dog wardens must be trained and must not be allowed to further the agendas of animal rights activists. The CBI regards the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food as the only appropriate authority to effectively regulate commercial dog breeding. The Department's unbiased veterinary surgeons are the only people whom the CBI recognises as being qualified to advise or testify on animal welfare issues. We recommend that Department veterinary surgeons be made ultimately responsible for breeding establishments.

The Department has these vets in every county office throughout Ireland. The system needs to be in place where they can be called on to attend licensed premises where there is a question over welfare or where prosecution is necessary. We do not need to explain to the committee how the livelihoods of entire families depend on these decisions. We recommend that when a kennel applies for a licence, the application and kennels must be certified by a veterinary surgeon just the same as our CBI membership. This would vastly simplify the process and instil confidence in dog breeders.

Improvement notices are a very good idea but it is understood that in some cases seizure may be necessary. It is unacceptable that the same charity which decides to seize animals also gets paid for their kennelling and can then proceed to sell them and keep the money. This is a severe conflict of interest. Animals when seized or rescued need to be placed in the care of an approved licensed kennel. The Department must regulate these kennels and its representatives must be able to visit any kennels, licensed or otherwise, 24 hours a day without notice. This must include animal shelters. We need licensed premises to tender for kennelling of dogs and transportation of dogs. These animals must stay in these kennels and responsibility must lie with the kennel owner in whose care the animal was placed.

As we have stated, Department vets must be involved. Breeding establishments must have a licence certificate which carries weight in the eyes of the public and which gives protection to our dogs. We want to restore public confidence. Improvement notices are welcomed but notices must be reasonable, justifiable and issued by a competent person such as a Department veterinary surgeon. We suggest a licensing system for dog exporters, guidelines on how to transport dogs, inspection and approval of vehicles for transporting dogs.

The CBI fundamentally opposes an increase in the licence fee for breeding establishments. It is obvious that there are thousands of breeding establishments in Ireland but the Government only licensed 440 in 2008. Raising the fees will not make these kennels obtain a licence and open up to regulation, instead it will drive them further underground. Fermanagh is a great example of an effective system. In that case, a premises with three unsterilised bitches becomes a licensed breeding establishment and the licence fee, which is currently £12.50, is reasonable. The Minister responsible for these matters has carried out consultation and proposes to raise the fee to £32. The dog warden hunts down and licenses kennels which are then open to inspection and regulation. This one small county has 55 licensed breeding establishments. The proposed fees of the Minister, Deputy Gormley, are going to be the highest in the world.

Fines are necessary but we are staggered at what is being proposed with €100,000 and five years in prison. Muggers, robbers and rapists do not receive such penalties. The Minister runs the risk of dog breeders being so intimidated by the system that they may decide not to engage at all. There can be no exemptions as a dog is a dog regardless of where it is held, be that a breeding kennel, boarding kennel, hunt kennel or rescue kennel. Its welfare needs do not change because of location or ownership.

It is agreed by the CBI and its membership that microchipping is good practice and that it should be a licence requirement. Most CBI members have already microchipped their dogs for their own records. They microchip puppies on a regular basis and it would seem good practice to extend this to all dogs. We agree with the Government that if done properly, microchipping would simplify the stray dog issue. The CBI is somewhat mystified as to why it is proposed that only "authorised implanters" can perform this simple and inexpensive task. The Irish Kennel Club has already tried this and found dog breeders were exploited and overcharged by veterinary surgeons in private practice.

We are fearful of what impact microchipping will have on dog exports and the knock-on effect on the home market. We suggest that a microchip should be a requirement of a dog licence and that this will ensure all dogs in the population are both chipped and licensed. It has been suggested by one of the CBI directors that a logbook system should be used to maintain the legal ownership of a dog. This would work like the logbook for a car, with legal ownership being in the name of the registered keeper, which should be held on a national database maintained by the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food.

According to the official figures, 220,000 individual dog licences were issued in 2008. This leaves 470,000 dogs which were not licensed, a massive shortfall in revenue of over €5 million. It would seem natural that councils would work with dog breeders to ensure puppies sold from licensed premises are licensed by their new owners. It seems shocking that this is not addressed in the new legislation. There should be incentives to neuter and licence reductions for those on benefits or the elderly.

There are a number of items in the proposed legislation which we believe will cause major welfare problems. By arranging licence fees subject to the number of dogs there is a constant pressure on kennels to euthanise or hide dogs and it will prohibit the expansion of successful kennels. By making those with five or fewer bitches exempt, it encourages the hiding and further abuse of dogs and by licensing a four-month-old puppy as a breeding bitch it is encouraging what would be a very serious abuse of animal welfare. In attempting to limit litter numbers and frequency the Minister has shown a lack of basic knowledge or veterinary advice on this issue. We suggest reasonable breeding guidelines which can be overwritten only by veterinary advice on an individual animal basis.

The CBI and its membership are not against charity and we commend the massive body of good work done by charitable organisations. Good sanctuaries and rescue shelters have an essential role to play throughout Ireland and the UK. We would relish the opportunity to work in partnership with welfare charities and hope that through the work of the CBI this would be possible in the future. We see our role as improving the welfare of animals, the standards of breeding kennels and the organisation of dog breeders so that our industry can be regarded as something of which to be proud.

We thank the committee for its patience and for meeting us to discuss these complex issues. We feel these matters need urgent attention and we thank the committee for recognising this. We will be making ourselves available to discuss the presentation. We have a document with proposed amendments which we would be happy to discuss with the committee.

I thank Mr. Hamilton for his very thorough outlining of the position. We will now take questions from members. There is a document containing suggested amendments attached to the presentation, which will be useful to members. The Bill has not yet come before the Dáil but I understand it will do so shortly.

I welcome the witnesses and thank them for the presentation outlining their position in great detail. We could have a very profitable industry in this, which would be welcome from an economic perspective. Perhaps it is an opportune time for this to be taken on board with regard to revenue and employment. The number of jobs involved in the industry was not mentioned by the witnesses but perhaps they could enlighten me on that issue later.

We all recognise that regulation is needed and the proposed Bill will provide it. The issue is how the Bill will be put together. There are quite a few players involved, with the CBI representing a section of the commercial side of the business and another group being those who follow country pursuits in hunting and other sports.

Mr. Hamilton said that all groups should come under the same umbrella but I see them as different. The CBI represents the commercial side and those who breed dogs for commercial purposes, an activity with which I have no problem as long as it is properly regulated. Hunting has been established as long as there have been dogs but its practitioners do not operate for commercial purposes. They operate for the purposes of sport and country pursuits.

Mr. Hamilton said that dogs were bred for export and England was the main market. Are dogs from CBI kennels neutered before they are sold? Does the CBI expect the customer to carry out neutering or can the customer order a neutered dog? Many people buy a pet without going into such matters in any great detail. Many have no interest in breeding so neutering should be considered. At the moment pets are being left to run wild, which leads to unwanted pups all over the place and that is a major problem.

From the first time I met the representatives of CBI and they gave me an insight into their business I could see they were part of the solution. They have expertise, gained from having been in business for quite a while, and they represent the more respectable side of the industry. At fairs and functions throughout the country I have seen the poor condition in which some animals are sold and this creates a very bad picture of people in this country.

There are aspects of the Bill with which I have problems. The provision for fees, as highlighted by the delegates, is outlandish and must be looked at again.

Is the Deputy aware that we are constrained for time?

It is seldom I take much time but this is an important issue.

It is very seldom I am in the Chair to give the Deputy so much time.

I welcome the CBI and compliment its representatives on their informative and interesting presentation. I totally disagree with the proposed new licence fee as it is ridiculous. I wish the Minister would reconsider as the fee in the North, at £12.50, is perfectly reasonable. I agree with microchipping as it is a good practice. As a farmer I fully understand the importance of traceability. I like dogs but my sheep flocks have been attacked on occasions and identification of the culprits would be helped by microchipping.

Mr. Hamilton referred to a lead-in period until the implementation of the legislation but what lead-in period does he suggest? The amendments put forward are thoroughly researched and well thought out. I agree that the Minister has shown a great lack of knowledge of the industry and that the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food should be the main responsible body. I served on a local authority for 19 years before coming into the Oireachtas and a designated Department vet is attached to each authority. That person is the most appropriate to deal with this issue on a county-by-county basis.

The presentation also referred to the Control of Dogs Acts 1986 to 1992. The number of stray dogs seized varies from county to county. In my own county of Longford, with a population of 31,000 the most sparsely populated in Ireland, 299 dogs were seized and 366 put to sleep. Is this because the ISPCA headquarters are in Longford and there is more activity in that county than elsewhere in the country?

I would like to see a common sense approach to this issue.

I thank Mr. Hamilton for his presentation. The lead-in time of three months is not satisfactory as it will take longer than that to get a premises up to scratch. Licence fees are another issue about which the CBI is concerned and we should have a look at that. I gather that the CBI would prefer the inspections to be carried out by inspectors from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. We will take that on board as well.

Dog breeding is a substantial industry and when I met the delegation in Buswells I was shocked to be told that it was worth €300 million per annum. It is an industry worth protecting as many people rely on it but it needs to be brought out of the shadows. I know very little about dogs but when people see television programmes about puppy farms it does not create a great image. I hope the Bill will change that. I am sure there are positives in the Bill, as well as negatives, but we will try to deal with the matters raised by the CBI.

I was surprised to learn of the number of dogs collected by dog wardens and I was even more surprised by the number reclaimed or passed on to good homes. I thought all dogs collected by the dog warden were held for a week and then put to sleep but it is good to see the service working successfully in this way.

I apologise for being late for the presentation but I have read much of it and I am quite familiar with the CBI's proposals. I compliment the organisation on the way it has done its business. It has made its arguments in a reasonable, constructive and logical fashion. That is appreciated by legislators on all sides as it is important that legislators are properly informed.

I have spent considerable time on this legislation in the Seanad in recent months. We all agree that puppy farming has given a bad name to the whole area of dog breeding. We all accept the requirement for standards and regulations, and this Bill will go a long way towards addressing that. I agree with many of the points made by the delegates to the effect that the Bill is too restrictive for those who have good intentions in terms of standards and proper licensing and regulation in the industry. We all agree we must stamp out malpractice and cruelty. It is about how best to formulate the legislation having taken into account the views of stakeholders such as Canine Breeders of Ireland.

My party submitted several amendments to the Bill in the Seanad in order to address some of the concerns referred to by the delegates. One simple and practical proposal of ours was to increase the lead-in time of the legislation from three to 12 months, or at least something greater than three months if the Minister was not willing to accept an extension to 12. Unfortunately, the Government parties were not willing to support that proposal. It is not too late for members on the Government side to take on board this reasonable argument. There may be planning or other implications for the owners of breeding establishments in seeking to get up to standard and they will need sufficient time to ensure their compliance. This reasonable amendment should be taken on board.

Was the CBI involved at any level in the working group set up in 2005 and from which the Minister has taken much advice on this matter? If it was, to what extent were its views taken on board by the group and by the Minister? Mr. Hamilton noted that no dogs are exempt under these provisions. However, some breeds of dogs are also regulated under existing legislation. As a legislator, I do not wish to see the introduction of grey areas as a consequence of legislative duplications. It seems the greyhound industry is already legislated for under the Greyhound Industry Act 1958. That legislation states clearly that the controlling authority for the breeding of greyhounds is the Irish Coursing Club. There is a stack of regulations which apply to that legislation and which may or not be adequate. I am of the view that these existing provisions are adequate but the Minister says they are not. Why are the delegates of the view that there should be no exemptions? Do they agree there should be double legislation for certain breeds where there is already relevant legislation?

The delegates suggested that this Bill could cause major welfare problems. Will they elaborate on that and indicate clearly, in layman's language, the system of registration and licensing which they contend would work better and have a better buy-in from breeders? The last thing any of us wants is for overarching legislation to drive dog breeding underground where nobody knows what is going on and practices are hidden.

The delegates are experts in their field and have been involved for many generations in the breeding of dogs. They are reputable representatives and have spoken in a constructive language. The Minister indicated to me in the Seanad that he had been advised by experts that a bitch can breed at four months and over. I still cannot find out from the Minister who these experts are. Will the delegates indicate whether this is a reasonable definition for a breeding bitch or whether the Minister and his Department are totally off the wall? I had assumed it would be much further along in the natural cycle of a bitch. Will the delegates clarify that?

Mr. David Hamilton

I thank members for their questions and comments. My colleague, Mr. McKay, will deal with the question on the number of employees involved in the industry.

Mr. Michael McKay

We do not have exact figures although we are working on that. I am probably more qualified to answer this question than some of my colleagues because I am an exporter and meet breeders from all over the country on a daily basis. Most are part-time breeders, many of them farmers who have diversified into breeding dogs as another part of their farm business, with their spouses often becoming involved. There are breeders working in dog food companies, pet shops and veterinary surgeries — the list is endless. We are beginning to take the view that the estimation that dog breeding generates €300 million for the economy is conservative. The more we look at it the more we find there is much to be added to that figure. It is a massive industry, much larger than we realised and employing thousands throughout the country.

Mr. John Cosgrove

Dog breeding is a natural outlet for the offal and fallen animals that are disposed of throughout the country. We had a situation not so long ago where carcasses were sent to Germany for incineration for BSE reasons. Why not take a positive approach and develop an industry which consumes this unwanted matter? I am not sure of the figures but that would provide an amount of employment. Our major concern regarding this legislation is that it is framed against a philosophy that is anti-breeding. As long as that attitude prevails, we will not get the effective and constructive legislation that is required. As Mr. Hamilton pointed out, we should have a positive attitude to dealing with these matters.

Deputy Christy O'Sullivan asked about neutering dogs. In most cases, a dog cannot be neutered any sooner than ten months of age. It is out of the question to neuter pups that are being sold on to people as pets. It is up to owners to ensure the animal is neutered, if they do not intend to breed from it, and they are strongly recommended to do so by the breeders who sell the animals. Most buyers will ask when they can neuter their dog and where they should go to get it done, so I give them details of vets I recommend and so on.

In regard to selling dogs into the open market, that is what most of us are about. People come into our premises and want to see the mother and father of the dog in which they are interested and the conditions in which the animal is being raised. They are at liberty to report us if we are not maintaining the required standards. We have nothing to hide and are pleased to open our premises to the public in this way. Not once have I had somebody complain that the animals were not being treated correctly.

Mr. David Hamilton

To conclude that point, a vet certainly would not advise the neutering of puppies. What we are saying is that this issue is missing in the legislation. We want to fix the problem of strays, but that problem is not coming from the commercial breeding establishment where we are breeding pedigree animals that are valuable and are bred under professional control. The problem stems from dogs in the general population which mate without control and are bred by people who do not know what they are doing. Those are the puppies that will find themselves in the pound or mistreated, where people do not know about the latest veterinary protocols in terms of vaccinations and so on.

There must be an incentive in this regard. We spoke to a vet the other week who said he would charge €120 to neuter a bitch. That is ridiculous. The Minister is proposing to raise the individual dog licensing fee to €20. There must be some incentive to encourage owners to neuter dogs. As far as we are concerned, the current system is not working and raising the fees will not make it work. Part of the problem is that the applicable fee is categorised in parameters where, for example, if one has five dogs, one is completely exempt, one is eligible for the fee if there are six dogs and if one increases the number from 12 to 13, the extra dog will cost €400. In the case of a kennel with 100 dogs, an increase in the number to 101 will see an additional cost of €1,600 in licence fees. That system may encourage owners to cull or get rid of animals. A successful kennel which is expanding — it is natural for it to do so — will face a prohibition. At every juncture it would give rise to the hiding of dogs and the suffering of animals. People will say they only have five dogs and put five dogs on one farm, another five up the road and another five down the road. The implications this practice has for welfare and our industry are extremely serious. We will not fix this problem until dogs are licensed and open to inspection.

The Minister has said the Bill is not about fees but is about animal welfare, which is excellent. The problem of fees should be stopped and the fee should be a flat fee. If a person registers and is licensed, he or she should be open to inspection and regulation. That is how the industry can escape the problems. Once people from the Department are involved, the position will begin to right itself. The primary objective should be to get premises licensed. If the stipulation is for three unsterilised females, it would take in everybody. The people should not be hammered in the pocket in the licensing process as the problems can be sorted out then. That is the only way of proceeding in a constructive fashion.

There was a question on the lead-in time. The recommendation of the working group was 12 months, which we believe is a minimum. We do not want a position where thousands of kennels are closing and depopulating, creating all kinds of welfare issues. That will not serve the interests of anybody. There must be a reasonable period and our argument is that it should be at least 12 months. With this, kennels can understand the new rules and make some attempt to address them. If parties decided to go out of the business, there would be some time to depopulate in a manner that will not affect animal welfare, which seems like common sense.

That was suggested by Fine Gael.

Mr. David Hamilton

I have finished answering that question but there was a query on the figures. The Deputy also mentioned Longford ISPCA. I would not like to comment on the ISPCA in Longford but there is an issue in these figures. If a person has an old dog and asks the dog warden to take it away, he or she will do so free of charge and it will go to the pound. If another person wants to take it, the dog will go to a new home and if this does not happen, it is euthanised. There is no charge for that.

If the person takes the old dog to the vet, there would be a fee involved. I am not sure what it is but I can guarantee the vet will not act for free. With 50,000 dogs dying of old age every year, there is a direct correlation in what we are seeing. People are saying that Ireland is full of puppy farms that destroyed 10,000 dogs last year but that has nothing to do with professional dog breeders. The animals we breed are commercially valuable in later life. A Cavalier dog in a pound would be the first pick of everybody as it would be a pedigree animal. People know what it is worth. The mongrels and collies will struggle to find a home, and that is how dogs come to be euthanised, which is wrong. We do not want to see that but it is the reality.

Mr. Paddy Dooley

This Bill will not deal with the issue of stray dogs. A business holding fewer than five dogs does not have to microchip them so all dogs will not be microchipped. Those dogs will cause the problems associated with strays. They will be left out and will mate with other dogs, producing surplus pups that nobody wants. We need every dog to be microchipped in order to control the stray dog population. Unless there is a proper database and system of ownership transfer, microchipping will be of no advantage.

Why should our establishments be the only premises that must microchip dogs? Every dog should be microchipped and that will solve the problem of strays. The owners could then be held responsible.

Senator Coffey raised an interesting question which was not dealt with. Was the Canine Breeders of Ireland consulted by the Minister, who claimed in the Seanad that he had consulted interested parties?

Mr. David Hamilton

The CBI was not involved in the working group. We were told there was some representation from dog breeders but from the legislation it seems it was not listened to. There does not seem to have been any input of value. We have tried extensively to meet with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley, to put these proposals to him and he has refused to do so.

Is the witness saying the Minister refused to meet with the CBI?

Mr. David Hamilton

Yes.

To correct the record, the Minister stated in the Seanad that he was interested in meeting with all stakeholders to consult with them before the Bill is finalised. That was only a couple of weeks ago and it is on the record. If the Minister is refusing to meet stakeholders perhaps the committee should consider the matter.

Mr. David Hamilton

We asked for a meeting and were refused. We have again asked for a meeting. It is vital that the Minister listens to us and understands that we are not trying to hijack the Bill or hide from it. We are asking that the process be done properly so that the problem can be fixed once and for all, which is what is required.

When we conclude the debate we will ask the Minister to meet with the group. The committee can arrange that.

Mr. David Hamilton

We still have a number of questions to deal with. Senator Coffey asked why there were no exemptions, as he was concerned about overlapping. I take the point. As dog breeders, we see a dog as a dog. The animal must be licensed, inspected and there must be some form of regulation. It is up to the committee to decide what form is adequate but a breeding establishment, sanctuary or rescue shelter should be under the remit of statutory bodies which can inspect them. Until that happens, we will continue to have problems. I hope that answers the question.

Does the CBI recognise the existing legislation under the Greyhound Industry Act 1958 to cover the breeding of greyhounds? It specifically states the controlling authority for the breeding of greyhounds is the Irish Coursing Club. There is an agency working under a Department already in existence that is covering the breed. That should be acknowledged but was not in the presentation.

Mr. Michael McKay

Mr. Hamilton was also referring to the welfare of the animals. There must be some access to kennels which are not accessible at present. Some of the sanctuaries, in particular, do a wonderful job but some are simply not up to scratch. Vets from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food must have access to those properties.

There is only 15 minutes left in the slot.

Mr. John Cosgrove

There was another question from the Senator.

What is the expert opinion on the definition of a breeding bitch?

Mr. John Cosgrove

Under kennel club laws, it is not allowed to breed a bitch under 12 months. In most cases, no potential breeding bitches will come on season any sooner than nine or ten months. One could not register a bitch with the kennel club if she went to a dog before she was 12 months old.

Mr. David Hamilton

For example, a miniature Yorkshire terrier may not be presented for sale until it is four months old because it is so delicate. If it is given to a member of the general public he or she will not be able to look after it. Some Chihuahuas are the same.

The legislation indicates to a breeder that having paid the licence for a four-month-old breeding female, it can be bred once it breaks season. The fees are structured in a way that once the hundreds or thousands of euro are paid, the dog can be bred. That is unethical and ridiculous. As a policy, we argue that a dog should not be bred until its second season and it should certainly be over 12 months at a minimum.

The legislation is encouraging a serious breach of animal welfare. If a dog breeder is of a mind to breed a female on which a licence has been paid, the legislation indicates there is nothing wrong. If that happened on purpose, I would argue for the person to be prosecuted because the action is unethical. We have heard arguments that a vet could not tell the difference between a female who is ten months old and one which is 12 months but the vet could do so with a four-month-old bitch. It is ridiculous. A four-month-old animal is a pup.

This is a fundamental definition related to licensing and the number of dogs registered. According to the experts present, a bitch should not be considered for breeding before she is 12 months old. However, in the Seanad the Minister said he had been advised by experts that a breeding bitch was defined as one who was four months old or above. It seems nonsensical.

It depends on who the experts are.

I thank the CBI for attending. I would be grateful for clarification on one issue. In his presentation, Mr. Hamilton said that dog wardens must be trained and must not be allowed to further the agenda of animal rights activists. What experience does he have to back up that statement?

Mr. David Hamilton

A charity or an activist will operate in a certain area. For whatever reason, the Government official, in the shape of the dog warden, will start to act in partnership with that charity or activist. Most animal sanctuaries and charities openly state that it is wrong to breed an animal for profit and are fundamentally opposed to it. However, that is the core of the industry so we have a problem with their stance. Providing the breeding of a dog does not have a negative effect on its welfare it is a perfectly natural thing to do. Unless one gets rid of western democracy and the practice whereby people use money to buy food and keep a roof over their heads, dogs will always be worth money.

The biggest danger is that the industry will be regulated by people who are not qualified and who do not answer to the relevant bodies. If a person tells me a kennel is too small but is not qualified to do so we will have serious problems. That person makes decisions which affect my livelihood and the welfare of my animals and I am within my rights to challenge the qualifications held by him or her. The only person with the authority to say what has to be done is a veterinary surgeon and the veterinary surgeon has to be unbiased. The only person we will accept is a veterinary surgeon from the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food because he or she does not have an agenda on behalf of one side or the other. Department vets are part of a Government body and have a code of ethics. They can be struck off if they do not follow it.

I am anxious to bring the debate to an end because we have to deal with another item before 2.30 p.m.

The ISPCA is the charity we are discussing. I am sure most of its members are decent people but Mr. Hamilton seems to be saying there is a hidden agenda in some organisations, based on a particular view of animal rights. If a person is allowed to go onto a person's premises, whether or not he or she has a legitimate argument about the welfare of animals, what can that person do? To what authorities can he or she report?

I welcome the fact that the CBI has suggested amendments to the Bill, which is always handy. It gives an indication of how the organisation sees the Bill being improved, though I am aware that it is broadly supportive of the overall intent of the Bill.

Mr. Hamilton spoke of a €50 flat fee regardless of the size of the kennel operation. Does he see that as entirely equitable? It means a small breeder and a substantial breeder will pay the same fee per year. How does that square among CBI members?

Mr. David Hamilton

Deputy Hogan asked about the problems with people coming into kennels. Under this legislation, these people will have the power of entry and the power to look at documentary evidence even where no dogs are present. The only place they cannot go is into a person's home. The legislation sets a precedent in Irish law in giving people from a charitable organisation, outside Government, the power to enter smallholdings and premises where all kinds of animals are present and hand out fixed-penalty tickets of up to €2,000, among other things. This is a dangerous precedent and we fundamentally object to it.

Some charities may be able to do the job more cheaply but a kennel puts money into the economy, rather than taking it out. The €50 is an administrative fee. When dog breeders sell a puppy they take the money, put it into the bank and pay the tax. Then they go to the vet and have the puppy vaccinated and wormed, which costs €100. Then they go to the pet store to buy a bed and food. If they go on holiday they put the dog in a kennel and pay €100. While the administrative fee means the large breeder pays the same as the small breeder, the larger a breeder is the more he or she puts into the economy.

The Minister said it cost €5.7 million to police dogs in Ireland but that costing is not based on commercial breeding establishments. Dog wardens spend their time running around towns and cities looking for the unwanted litter or answering the complaints of people whose neighbour's dog fights or barks all night. They do not spend their time at commercial breeding establishments. At those establishments they will see 20 or 50 dogs and it will not take them long. They can approve the kennels or give improvement notice but will not spend much time there. The €50 is a simple administrative fee for kennels to be licensed, regulated and inspected.

Mr. Paddy Dooley

The fee set by the Northern Executive is £35 and, as a Southern breeder trying to compete with breeders in the North, I will have to pay €3,000 for 100 bitches, putting me at a disadvantage.

Mr. David Hamilton

A breeding establishment in Northern Ireland is charged a £12.50 fee, regardless of size. The Minister for Agriculture and Rural Development in the North understands that this is an administrative fee and not a form of tax. She has carried out wide consultation and is proposing to raise it to £32. She will not raise it to high levels as the system works successfully. It is cheaper for the kennel to pay a licence fee in this way and their owners are very happy to pay it. Nothing is hidden and that is the essence of the system.

Mr. Hamilton spoke about what it cost at the moment. I believe local authorities received approximately €2.5 million last year and charities received something similar. That is absolutely crazy. What are we getting for that money? I do not know how many charitable organisations there are but I have heard there could be up to 100. Clarification on that matter would be helpful.

A lot of good work may have been done in the past but we must move on. The Bill must put the industry in a position where it can be regularised. There is no room for anybody but a professional person to inspect a premises and I would like a provision to be put into the Bill to that effect. I thank the delegates for their informative presentation.

Mr. John Cosgrove

Deputy Hogan asked what the problem is with allowing animal rights activists onto one's premises. There is every reason to deny them that access. The documented evidence in Britain in regard to all aspects of the regulation of dogs and other animals shows that the industry has been crippled in terms of hunting and so on.

On the domestic scene, there is plenty of evidence, including an impending court case, that animals have been confiscated without permission. It is pure skullduggery. Timid people have had their animals confiscated and sold on. That has been going on for years and is well documented in the 2005 submission to the Minister which included input from several organisations, including people who later became members of Canine Breeders of Ireland. An amount of work went into that. It is about time the Minister undertook to meet CBI. We have requested such a meeting on numerous occasions but it has not happened. The Minister should be pulled up strongly on that.

I thank the delegates for their participation in this informative discussion. I am sure members will take their concerns on board when the Bill goes through the Dáil.

Is Senator Coffey's proposal that we write to the Minister asking him to meet with dog breeders agreed to?

The Minister should, prior to the finalisation of the legislation, meet with all stakeholders, not just CBI, which have representation and have made submissions.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

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