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JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE ENVIRONMENT, TRANSPORT, CULTURE AND THE GAELTACHT debate -
Tuesday, 11 Oct 2011

Supply, Storage and Disposal of Water: Discussion

We are in public session and we will now consider the topics of providing an efficient infrastructure for the supply and disposal of water, alternative sources of supply, storage and disposal of water, and the administration cost involved in the supply and disposal of water. We have representatives from the County and City Managers Association, the Association of County and City Councils and Engineers Ireland.

I welcome Mr. Jack Keyes, Cavan county manager, Mr. John Tierney, Dublin city manager, Mr. Adrian Conway, project manager at Dublin City Council, and Mr. Tom Curran, Kerry county manager, all here on behalf of the County and City Managers Association. I welcome Councillor Michael O'Brien, president, Councillor Hilary Quinlan, vice-president, Councillor Phyll Bugler, Councillor Pádraig McNally and Mr. Liam Kenny, who are here on behalf of the Association of County and City Councils. I welcome Mr. John Power, director general, Mr. Jerry Grant, managing director, both of RPS Group Limited, and Mr. Kevin Murray, chartered engineer, on behalf of Engineers Ireland. I thank you all for coming.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they are to give to this committee. If witnesses are directed by the committee to cease giving evidence in relation to a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. Witnesses are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Before I call on the witnesses to speak, I would like to make a few preliminary comments. I remind the witnesses that the committee has invited them to address it, not on behalf of any particular local authority but as representatives of organisations that represent all local authorities. The provision of water is a national issue and the problems and challenges faced by local authorities will vary across urban and rural areas and different parts of Ireland. I ask witnesses and members of the committee to bear this point in mind when addressing the issues. With that said, I call on Mr. Keyes to make his opening statement.

Mr. Jack Keyes

I thank committee members for giving me the opportunity to discuss this most important topic today. We have a brief presentation, which I assume will come up as we go through it. I have two comments to make which summarise what we will say about water in the next ten to 15 minutes. First, local government has played a pivotal and proud role in the provision of water services in Ireland over recent decades. The records speak for themselves. The performance levels have been very high, and incidents such as last year's freeze showed the value of having a responsive local government system working in this area. Second, funding for water services has been playing catch-up. In spite of significant investment over the past ten years, which began to bridge the gap, we have been coming from a very low base by European standards and we still have a long way to go before we could claim to be at a First World standard of water services.

Local authorities play a pivotal role as water services authorities. There has been chronic underinvestment, with significant improvement over recent years. A capital investment lag of €600 million has been identified by the Department, but we believe it is significantly in excess of that because the Department only lists the readily identifiable schemes that need to be done. The quality of water in the public supply is excellent overall. Considering the treatment plants we have and the background I have outlined, that is a very good performance. The efficient and responsive delivery by local government is well known.

We have 950 public supplies producing 1.6 billion litres of water for a network of 25,000 km of pipes, so that is a very large network. That figure is interesting because that is much larger than the per capita European norm. In other words, we have many small supplies in Ireland producing our water. There are 1 million domestic and 160,000 non-domestic water consumer connections. The majority of drinking water comes from surface water in Ireland - the rivers and lakes are very important to us - and of the remainder, 10% comes from ground water and 8% from springs. Again, that is a bit lower than the norm across Europe.

We have no domestic water charges at the moment, but we do charge non-domestic customers and that substantially covers the cost of provision, although there would be a gap in the area of waste water. Current expenditure on the provision of water services is not sufficient. It takes a lot more money to run water plants because they take higher levels of skill, the provision of chemicals and so on. We reckon there was a deficit of €453 million in 2010 on current expenditure, and this has been accepted by the Department. We get that by taking it from our local government fund, which we would like to use for many other purposes at local level. That is where the money that keeps our system going comes from. A total of €600 million is provided annually in capital investment, including €100 million for the rural water programme. We put up €100 million of that €600 million ourselves. We will look at the sources of that in a moment. Development contributions have been the major source of our contribution to capital investment, but unfortunately these have been greatly reduced from previous levels.

In summary, our income comes from development levies, non-domestic water charges, significant water user contributions, loans with the approval of the Department, and rates. Over recent years, we have had to borrow huge sums of money, and this is increasing every year, to fund the capital investment in water, whereas in previous years, development levies covered a significant amount of that.

This slide shows the summary of the capital investment, with the major figures in black between 2000 and 2010, during which €4.2 billion was invested by the Government. The rural water programme received €990 million, so about €5.2 billion was invested by Ireland Inc., which is very significant.

The next slide shows the figures for the water and waste water increases in population served. There has been a huge increase in the pink line, which is essentially the waste water investment. This signals that a huge amount of investment has gone into waste water, which is on foot of European Court of Justice judgments to which we have had to respond. The bottom blue line represents the gradual increase in water supply investment and the populations being served. That is another positive story.

On the financial difficulties, under the water services investment programme, WSIP, we must come up with a share, which is up to 40% in some cases. That is a near impossibility because of development levies, unless one gets loans. However, one must repay them over several years so one is putting off the evil day to a degree.

There is an investment backlog of approximately €1 million to which I alluded earlier. The costs of compliance are increasing significantly because, for example, new wastewater licences are being issued by the EPA. An amount of work must be done even on good existing plants. We have a figure of €17,000 associated with each of these licences as an additional cost, so there are major financial challenges to be addressed concerning water.

I do not want to go through the whole legislative framework with the committee but members will be aware of the pivotal role local authorities play in producing high quality water services. Local authority officials can potentially have a criminal liability for anything that goes wrong with water, so it is an onerous task for the individuals and corporate bodies involved.

The EPA has significant powers and we interact regularly with it. It can give us enforceable directions to do something and once the EPA says something must be done we then respond. The oversight of actions taken by water services authorities continues to meet the relevant water standards. They keep an eye on everything we do. The monitoring we carry out is overseen by the EPA. The audits are increasingly onerous but are being done in a satisfactory manner. In addition, the EPA gives us guidance to assist with compliance and therefore has a pivotal role.

The compliance performance is satisfactory. The EPA reports every year on the results of water quality monitoring. The key figure is that compliance with chemical standards was extremely high at 99.2%. That is a very high compliance and the few non-compliances would largely concern relatively insignificant issues.

The next slide shows the number of non-compliances which shows a positive drop in water supplies where E.coli was detected at least once. When E.coli is detected it does not necessarily mean there is a problem with the water, although it is a rough indicator. The graph shows the improvement in quality between 2004 and 2009.

Members are familiar with this slide which shows the whole water cycle. The collection rates for commercial water charges have fallen from 66% in 2006 to 53% in 2009. There are various reasons for that but it is largely due to the introduction of metering, coming from a fixed charge situation to a per-use one. Due to the economic recession there is huge pressure on businesses at the moment. Being close to the customer, local authorities have to deal with that challenge in a sympathetic and sensitive way.

It should be noted that the 53% figure is more of an accounting term than the real measure of collection, which is higher. Under accrual accounting there are certain rules. We carry over many deficits and arrears from earlier years, which go into that calculation every year. It is therefore an unfair reflection because, in effect, the collection rate is higher than that. Ireland's water charges are some of the lowest in Europe. A number of years ago, a Forfás report illustrated that point. Some countries have more than twice the Irish rate for water charges.

The bullet points refer to the unprecedented pressure we are under, especially concerning the business environment. We are also trying to reduce business costs at all times. We are pulled in two directions: one is the increased cost of water provision, while the second concerns the pressures that businesses experience locally.

We must balance the efficient collection of charges against the real economic challenge out there. We have many links with business organisations including DETI, IBEC, Chambers Ireland and the Irish Hotels Federation. We interact with them in an ongoing dialogue to try to hear their side of the story. We then respond and try to explain many facts. For example, one thing that always surprises businesses when we meet them is that we have such a low cost compared to Europe although some business elements, such as hotels, are particularly hit.

From this slide, members can see the range of water charges across Ireland. Our charges are lower than those in the UK, but not significantly different. One can see that there is a good range in Ireland between the minimum charges of 90 cent to a maximum of €1.50 for water. There are various reasons for that, including the fact that an enlarged conglomeration can have one or two plants with low running costs compared to a small county with many different plants producing water. It just takes more money to produce per cubic metre. Even the cost of €1.50 is relatively cheap by European standards. Likewise, with waste water, one can see a similar pattern emerging. Wastewater charges may need to be raised to get to the economic cost if we get to that level.

We call leakage "unaccounted for water". The current level in Ireland is 41%, which is high by international standards. Members might remember an earlier slide which showed major investment going into waste water. It is only in recent years that Ireland has started to put significant resources into addressing leakage. In that regard, there are three phases in any wastewater conservation programme. Most counties fund the first two phases, which are about establishing where the network is, getting it metered and getting all the measurements done. It is a slow and methodical process. We now find that the figures are starting to fall as we get into phase three, which is effectively the replacement of mains. Dublin went down that road several years ago and its leakage rates are in the 20% range. Mr. John Tierney will give us the exact figures on that.

The picture is improving significantly. This figure includes leakages on the customer side. In our experience, there is significant leakage on the customer side. We argue that it is as much as one finds in the public mains. Obviously, if water metering was introduced it would focus people's minds on the amount of water that - totally unknown to them - is disappearing underground. We have no way of knowing that at the moment. While the overall figure of 41% may appear high, when one looks at all the elements involved the situation is improving.

We find that the level of investment is improving. The other issues include per capita consumption figures, industrial demand profiles, the urban demographic profile and the length of the pipe network. All those things have pushed that figure up a little bit.

Most members of the committee, especially those from rural Ireland, will be familiar with the great role that group water schemes have played in water provision. They have a close relationship with local authorities which oversee their work and monitor their performance. The quality of group water schemes was the subject of European Court of Justice cases against Ireland. A huge investment has been made in a co-ordinated way. An efficient delivery has taken place and many of the schemes were bundled together. The compliance rates for group schemes are now improving rapidly. I guess that within two or three years they will be approaching public water supply levels. That is a good news story because it came from a low and unacceptable base.

We have been designated as the supervisory authority in respect of private water supply schemes, which include group water schemes. We can now issue directions to water suppliers to prepare and implement action programmes. In the same way as the EPA can direct us, we can direct group schemes to do certain actions. Likewise, we may issue directions to secure compliance with the relevant water standards.

These slides show the old and the new. That was a scene members might have seen more frequently some years ago. That is where we have come from - a small hut on the side of the road with basic chlorination of the water supply. One chlorine pump was the norm, with no stand-by. It was a simple and cheap supply of water. Those were the days when our raw water was perhaps better than it is now, but also the standards were not as high as they currently are. We have now moved to a very different level. The slide, dated 2011, shows an example of a modern plant with three slow sand filters. It shows what has become the new picture of water services in Ireland. Another slide shows the type of technology we are now dealing with. Very complex, high-skilled work is taking place in these areas and it involves instrumentation and rapid gravity filters. I refer also to other modern plants in Kerry.

Water services in Ireland require significant capital and revenue investment. While I am saying this in a time of great shortages, this is the reality.

Local government performance has been very good. I worked in the private sector for approximately ten years before entering local government and can put my hand on my heart and state that local government's performance in water services has been really good. We work very closely with the private sector. It is not like other countries where all the work may be done by the public sector. We work hand in hand with consulting engineers and private sector contractors and we engage in public private partnerships. The two sectors are very aligned in the delivery of water services.

The status quo is not viable. We cannot remain as we are in terms of water provision because things change so much and standards increase. In particular, investment needs must be met.

The County and City Managers Association, which we represent today, looks forward to continuing to work closely with central government to manage whatever changes will inevitably come down the tracks to face us.

Councillor Michael O’Brien

We are delighted to have this opportunity to participate in the committee's deliberations. The documentation the committee supplied to us states water supply is of major concern and that this is the kernel of the issue today. None of us is here to reinvent the wheel. One must examine a number of practices that have crept in over many decades, one of which pertains to the condition of the current network of supply. There is clearly a need for considerable investment in that network. If we concentrated on this, there would not be a loss of treated water to the environment of up to 50%.

On behalf of the Association of County and City Councils, we are delighted to be here. We have furnished to every member a copy of our submissions on the various areas about which we speak. Members will deduce that our presentation is based on the fact that we would attract the odium of the public over whatever shortfall exists in the public water supply. We are very conscious of this in our submission.

We recognise privatisation of the water supply is regarded as a possibility. Ours is not a philosophical argument invented by me or anybody else; it is an argument that came from our 102 members and it is based on problems with privatisation in other countries. We are not trying to reinvent the wheel; suffice it to say there is plenty of evidence elsewhere of what happened in other countries on foot of the privatisation of the water supply. Given that we manage our network and that the centralisation of any public facility can be dangerous because it does not allow the people who elect us to have an input into service delivery, we make the case that there is really no reason to take any drastic action here.

Members will have seen in our written submission that there is within the system expertise in dealing with water supply and maintenance. If there had been proper investment in water supply, we would not have had the difficulties experienced recently, particularly during the more inclement winters over recent years.

We did not come here in an argumentative frame of mind because we accept it is part of the programme for Government to create Irish Water. However, we do not want – excuse the pun - to throw out the baby and the bathwater. We have something that is worth retaining if we build on it.

Since we represent such a wide variety of local government units around the country, from the smallest local authority to the largest, we are very conscious that the smaller local authority units or smaller county councils are likely to be at a disadvantage in the context of competing for resources to satisfy their needs. We would be concerned about cherry-picking if there were privatisation. As we see every day in the context of the refuse collection system, people whose number is not large enough to constitute a viable collection area are suffering greatly as a consequence. This is unfair and wrong and we should do our best to ensure it does not occur with regard to the supply of water, the single most important resource anyone could have.

I call Councillor Phyll Bugler, who is on the national rural water monitoring committee and who is a member of our executive, to add to what I have just said.

Councillor Phyll Bugler

I will concentrate on the complexities of water supply in Ireland. Sometimes people under estimate the diversity of the system. The system services apartments, townhouses, many gated communities and remote rural households. The water network, therefore, is much more diverse and complex than a road network or electricity network, for example. We need to take this on board.

The drafters of the IMF-EU-ECB memorandum might have considered the Irish system to be a little bit similar to that of a major urban centre. This is not the case as our system is very diverse and complex.

Let me concentrate on the metering regime and the reduction in leakage. At the time of the last census, there were 2.5 million dwellings in Ireland. The cost of installing meters will be very high. I have heard a figure of €1 billion. I wonder whether the opportunity could not be used to retrofit some houses, use some grey water, modernise pipes and, in some cases, reduce leakage. Let me cite an example from my county council, North Tipperary County Council. In 2007 the council's water conservation programme was introduced. Between 2007 and 2011, we were able to reduce leakage from 60% to 38%. That is a massive reduction, achieved through metering, sub-metering and telemetry. We need to consider both retrofitting houses and metering.

The comprehensive databases built up by metering agencies such as ESB Electric Ireland cover all properties in Ireland. Rather than reinventing the wheel and starting over with a new database, perhaps we should look to these bodies for assistance.

I am speaking from a local authority perspective and believe local authorities have done very good work in water provision and ensuring water quality. I cite the case of North Tipperary in the context of leakage reduction. Changing from a local model to a national model does not always result in improvement. I cite a case from last year. During the winter of 2009 councils were responsible for the distribution of salt. As somehow it seemed to be deemed unsatisfactory, we transferred responsibility to the National Roads Authority. Lo and behold in December 2010 there were reports and criticisms to the effect that the new arrangement was not the be all and end all of everything. We should be careful and consider what we have. County councils and other local authorities have done a good deal of work and expertise has been built as far as water provision is Ireland is concerned.

I call on Mr. Power, chartered engineer, to make his opening comments on behalf of Engineers Ireland.

Mr. John Power

As director general and on behalf of Engineers Ireland, I thank the Chairman for the invitation to meet the joint committee. My two colleagues are Mr. Jerry Grant and Mr. Kevin Murray who are both chartered engineers. The committee will note that their biographies, as well as mine, are contained in the main statement in the document provided.

Engineers Ireland is the authoritative voice of engineering in the country and one of the largest representative bodies on the island, with more than 24,000 members. It is not a trade union. Our membership incorporates all disciplines of the engineering profession in Ireland, including industry, the public service, semi-State organisations and academic institutions. More specifically, we have many members working in the public and private sectors in the provision of water and wastewater services. Also, we award the professional title of Chartered Engineer, the gold standard for engineers working in Ireland. This professional badge of excellence, awarded following a rigorous assessment process, enables Ireland's engineers to hold their heads high on the global stage and compete with their international peers.

Engineers Ireland firmly believes any engineering project with an environmental dimension such as water services should only be authorised by a chartered engineer to ensure the highest standards are maintained and clear accountability is upheld in that position of responsibility. The Chairman's letter referenced efficient infrastructure and alternative sources, as well as administration and costs. While these may encompass many aspects, we will seek to cover as much ground as possible in the presentation and any subsequent discussion.

As a developed country rebuilding its economic base, Ireland requires a first class water service with appropriate capacity for growth and contingencies. Quality water supply and wastewater services are considered basic necessities in a modern society and a fundamental requirement for economic growth. Most nations will face a crisis in water supply in the coming decades and many also face the challenge of rising sea levels. These are global issues and Ireland is better placed than most to meet them. However, the country must defend these natural advantages.

The Government intends to establish a new State-owned water company, Irish Water, to lead the development of Ireland's water infrastructure. This is a fundamental departure from the existing structure of water services and it should be recognised as an opportunity to position Ireland's water services to face the challenges of the future.

Mr. Jerry Grant

In speaking for Engineers Ireland I am conscious that we are speaking for a significant number of engineers, including the great majority of professional engineers in water services in the public and private sectors. Increasingly of late we embrace within Engineers Ireland water scientists and environmental specialists and consultants. This is a particular interest.

As stated, the public and private sectors have played a significant role in delivering high quality water services in Ireland, often under considerable pressure in terms of resources. The joint committee set out a three item agenda, including efficient infrastructure which we take to be infrastructure that will deliver quality and quantity reliably, and alternative sources which we understand to mean the provision of new water sources. This is a significant challenge and it is clear the committee recognises that where there are many competing interests and environmental pressures, bringing on new water sources is a major challenge. Nevertheless, it is also vital to remember that the time from when one conceives of the need for sources of water to the time one brings water to the tap can be up to 20 years. On the basis that demand keeps growing even in difficult and bad economic times and when economic recovery and growth are taking place also, one could go quickly from crisis to crisis unless there was a strategy in place for sustainable water resources. The topics of administration and the cost of water are also important in the sense that it is clear there is not enough money available as the presentations to date have demonstrated.

Engineers Ireland carries out a good deal of work on technical reports using the expertise of its members. The state of infrastructure in Ireland is being examined, as are the requirements for a 21st century water service. In terms of gradings from A to F, we put the water supply at grade C. This recognises that great numbers of committed professional people work on the front line of water services delivering a good service against significant obstacles in terms of funding, the historical age of much of the network and its condition, and the challenges presented by new regulations and standards which are coming all the time. We will try to summarise why we believe this to be the case.

I wish to make a brief overall comment on water provision. It is extraordinary that the service must meet a requirement for a constant supply, 24 hour a day, seven days a week, while always meeting quality and quantity for the domestic customer. In addition, in terms of industrial processes and the production of goods where water is a raw material, it is altogether unacceptable for industries to be without water because this could put jobs at risk and so on. This is a significant responsibility discharged by local authorities. The committee will be aware that it is generally the case that there are few breakdowns in this service.

I wish to make a point about the economic trade in water. It is not generally understood we import huge quantities of embedded water, for example, in food from arid countries. The production of oranges or corn in dry countries consumes huge amounts of water. Similarly, in the case of animals, we export huge quantities of embedded water in meat.

Will Mr. Grant explain what he means by embedded water?

Mr. Jerry Grant

It is the water required to grow products or, in the case of industry, the water required by Intel, for example, and other industries to produce products. In the shipping of goods throughout the world there is a huge amount of water passing from one country to another. If one considers it in this way, one begins to get a sense of the economic power of a country that has adequate water in a world in which vast populations do not. Practically all of south-east Asia is water-stressed, with much of Africa. Australia is also seriously water-stressed, although it is a First World economic power. Our ability to compete in such a world should be enhanced by the fact that we have sustainable water resources. This is an important point to make in terms of how we appreciate water.

The committee has heard good summaries of the nature of water services in Ireland. We reckon that in recent years the capital moneys available have been reduced by approximately 50%. We believe 5,000 jobs have been lost in the water sector, probably mainly in the private sector but not exclusively because the public sector has had to shed jobs also. In a situation where water provision is a socio-economic priority this is a serious matter.

The committee will have garnered a sense of the complexity of the issue from the previous presentations. Scotland is probably the best parallel to Ireland in that it, too, has high density urban centres and widely dispersed rural communities for which it is difficult and costly to provide water services. It is a major challenge. Let us couple this with the regulatory environment, something we discussed previously. In the early part of the 20th century the requirement was that drinking water should be wholesome and aesthetically satisfactory. This meant that if it tasted, smelled and looked okay, then it was okay. Today local authorities are subject to several hundred parameters, including physical, chemical, biological and ecological parameters, to which they must measure up and with which they must comply legally. The fact that we have succeeded in doing this for the most part means we are doing a great deal right, in spite of the pressures.

The Royal Commission Standard for wastewater discharges was set down in the 19th century and remained applicable until the 1970s when the EU requirements took over. The complex reality facing a water undertaker today is incredibly challenging compared to what it was previously. In this context, we will consider each topic one by one and will be as brief as we can.

In terms of efficiency and efficient infrastructure, where are we now? The reality is that after 50 years of high level investment, we still have large chunks of the old Victorian infrastructure, especially in towns and cities, and most of the money invested in water services went into two particular areas. The first was to meet new demand because it was growing faster than we could bring sources and supplies on board, and the second was to meet EU standards that were being imposed. Many of those standards were necessary because water quality was deteriorating in Ireland but, thankfully, that has been addressed to some extent.

The legacy issues have been touched on but high leakage and the risk of failure of supply are clear problems. It is also a fact, unfortunately, that there is a significant deficit in quality in some developer-led work. A lot of water infrastructure has been adopted from schemes put in place by developers. A number of decades ago, certification was removed in favour of self-certification. It has not worked in large measure and, therefore, it is rather unfortunate that we have the problems of antiquity while we also have problems of quality arising from some of the work that has been done more recently. All of that has contributed to limited security and flexibility to provide a 21st century supply. There are ongoing environmental challenges because the regulations continue to tighten. The lead standards and so on are coming down the line and they will apply more pressure.

In terms of how we might move to efficiency and have a strategy to get there, the first requirement, which is covered in the Water Services Act 2007, is to have asset management planning based on rolling five-year strategic plans with a 20-year vision, which is the absolute minimum we need. This is one of the problems with water. One cannot plan water services for two or three years because it takes so long to bring projects through. One must have at least a 20-year view, which is difficult to do. We propose regional strategic plans based on the river basin district regions for the most part. These would be subject to public consultation and strategic environmental assessment and there would be engagement with stakeholders, all of which would test them and should lead to plans which would be supported by good records of the systems and a good cost model that would underpin what it would take to meet the strategic objectives in terms of capital and running costs. Previous speakers referred to the telemetry and the improvement in records through the water conservation projects.

At the heart of that is the need to look at the funding as one entity rather than two. A huge part of the difficulty is the separation of capital and operational funding, which makes it difficult to plan integrated delivery in an efficient and effective way. A regional approach would give the benefits of scale, which is demonstrated in some regions where there is a high level of co-operation and a degree of common management and procurement, and it would provide a more direct career path for professionals in the water services area who would stay in that discipline and become genuine experts. There are many water services experts in Ireland but there could be more if there was an opportunity to stay in the discipline.

One cannot get away from the question of having enough revenue to do the things one needs to do, make up for the backlog and encourage demand management. There has been some mention of the waste water treatment challenge in particular, which has been met to a large degree but not entirely. The modern waste water treatment plans dotted throughout the country are high technology plants by any standards. They required new levels of process design and technology. For local authorities to have taken those on board would have been a high risk strategy and, therefore, they were done through design, build and operate, DBO, procurement where the risk of operational performance has remained with the private sector. They are controlled through payment mechanisms that require performance and they have in-built capital replacement funds to keep the plants in proper order. The problem is that they lock in expenditure for local authorities which is no longer flexible for any other part of the system, but it is difficult to see how one can get away with high quality technology plants when one has large towns and small receiving waters. I instance Portlaoise, in which I was involved, which was opened in the past 12 months. It is a large town on a small river and, thankfully, after 12 months of operation, the fish are back in the Triogue and it is in good condition. However, that was a €25 million plan for the town and members can extrapolate that throughout the country.

In terms of the operation of the networks, the leakage challenge is interesting because people think it is horrendous to have 40% leakage, but the reality is that leakage is a difficult to problem to solve in an old network. Reference has been made to reducing leakage to 35% of the network and it is accepted that it can be done at a certain level of investment. The problem is to move from 35% to 30% to 25% and, ultimately, to 20%, which would be an enormously challenging objective and would be progressively much more expensive. The difficulty is one comes up against the concept of the economic level of leakage. In reality, reducing leakage reduces the cost of water supplied, but only marginally because all that is saved is the cost of chemicals and perhaps energy. The staff and systems are broadly the same, large-scale investment is not impacted and, therefore, the environmental cost of water and the capital deferred cost have to be considered to see the true benefits of reducing leakage. I find in discussion that the extent of the difficulty in getting leakage down to 20% is underestimated. In 20 years of large-scale investment in Britain, they are still not at 20%. They say they are but that is debatable. We have a parallel challenge on the private side of the stopcock where we know we have large-scale leakage and it is difficult to get those leaks identified and then fixed promptly.

Energy will remain a huge challenge for the water industry which absorbs high levels of energy and is, therefore, at huge risk in terms of the cost of energy in the long term. A great deal is being done and all local authorities have undertaken efficiency programmes. They probably need to look at renewable energy sources in conjunction with major schemes.

I refer to demand management in terms of reducing demand at household and industry level and involving other use of water, in other words, using rain water. This requires a range of options, starting with education. That is happening and I am sure members are all familiar with the information available. Information on the volume of water lost is also valuable. Studies in the Merrion area of Dublin have shown that one leak under a driveway is equivalent to the water use of 50 houses. That is a startling figure but it demonstrates that if we had that information, smart metering and knew where the water was being used, we could target it. The question of customer leakage protocols and how to deal with them is difficult because, even though there are many powers, local authorities are slow to shut off a customer if he is losing water. The questions of subsidised crews to fix leaks and liability if one enters a private property to do the work on behalf of a person need to be considered because we know an awful lot of water is lost on the customer side of the stopcock.

One then moves on to consumption-based charges. Our experience, from looking at information, particularly from Britain and northern Europe, is that customer charges would probably reduce consumption by 10%, certainly no more than that. There is a point where people will save and then will regard it as economical. A lot of tools are needed in the bag as well as a grant system to promote rain water use, because it would be expensive to get people to convert.

With regard to the sources issue, water demand has mirrored economic growth for 60 years and it has averaged between 1% and 2% per annum. It was flat in previous recessions and then it took off again. Growth of 1% to 2% means that for a 20-year plan, demand will increase by 30%. Over the next 20 years, we will get that to some degree from leakage savings and perhaps metering, reducing demand and other methods, but the rest will have to come from new sources. The frightening thing might be that if we cannot make the 20% target and we cannot reduce householder demand, we will have a bigger problem because the requirement we will have from sources will be lower. At the same time, sources will be under pressure from climate change and from the water framework directive requirement to improve quality, which may mean reducing the abstractions from certain rivers. In all that, we have to provide for peak. Most European countries have between 10% and 20% residual capacity for peak and contingencies. In parts of our systems, we have 2% if we are lucky.

We, in Engineers Ireland, support the broad thrust of the Shannon project for Dublin. We do this on the basis that we recognise that it is possible to find new sources of water and balance all of the community concerns, such as the ecology, amenity, climate and so on, provided one includes factors such as storage and being able to do without abstraction in low-flow periods by storing it in the high-flow periods. We see there is a solution to the water problem in the east but we recognise absolutely that it cannot be at the expense of another catchment somewhere else or the community in that catchment and that it must be on the basis of using the ability to store the water initially in a lake, and also large-scale raw water storage. Subject to those, we would strongly support the view that it is critical from a socioeconomic point of view that we make provision to be adequately supplied with water throughout the country over the next 20 to 30 years because that is the only way we will be able to get back on to and sustain a growth path.

I will not get involved in the discharge issue, which was listed in the committee's topics. It involves the same set of issues of trying to find where to discharge effluent and where to locate treatment plants in a way that does not impact on communities. We as engineers would say that it is possible to achieve a balance whereby these facilities can be located satisfactorily. Many of the modern plants being built are satisfactory from an odour, visual and noise point of view and meet the standards of discharge. Obviously, it is much more cost effective if one can get to the open sea than if one must go to a small receiving river or lake. I suppose the only difference between dealing with water and sewage is that it is not really possible to pump sewage very long distances because it goes septic in the system and creates an awful lot of problems. It must be dealt with relatively proximate to the source.

We have a brief word on septic tanks. It would be easy to overlook the fact that 30% of households in the country are on septic tanks. Of those, 25% are causing problems. These have a significant impact in terms of ground water risk and the framework directive objectives. Septic tanks must be registered and assessed by qualified chartered engineers.

On the question of administration and cost, there should be an approach in the long term - we think it will take a quite a number of years - towards a dedicated water utility which would provide for the delivery of drinking water and the disposal of waste water under strict regulation. The key characteristics would be accountability of that utility under regulation, responsibility for public policy objectives set out by Government, a commercial focus and the ability to look at the funding from a whole-life point of view, balancing capital and operational revenue from water charges that would be sufficient to fund the operation, and a significant timeframe for transition to another structure during which the expertise and skills would be managed and accommodated within that structure.

In terms of management, Engineers Ireland recognises that the Government will have an important role in terms of public policy and social protection, the Financial Regulator will have a role in terms of driving efficiency and getting the value for money objectives achieved, the environmental regulator will have a role in terms of managing the environmental aspects and protecting public health and the environment, and local authorities will have an important role in terms of planning, catchment management, environmental management, environmental protection, storm water management, flooding, fire and many other areas. All of those must be accounted for in any plan because matters such as staffing and funding can easily be overlooked. A simple example might be that the abstraction of water should have a cost and that money would fund the regulatory side of monitoring sources.

We agree that an organisation like this should have largely a regional focus with a relatively small central management component. That is the appropriate approach, with the central management focused on strategic planning, standards, policy and support services such as interaction with the regulators and the overall management of the investment process, and the regional bodies presenting the opportunities for economies of scale and the more effective use of resources, probably within the river basin district type structure.

Like others, we briefly looked at some of the prices for water around the world. The prices in northern European cities seem for the most part to be in the region of €3.50 to €6, with €5.90 being the highest we noted. Australia's prices are approximately €2.65 to €3.70.

Is that per cubic metre?

Mr. Jerry Grant

Yes. It is worth noting that there have been significant increases in the cost of water in Australia and in many countries where they have had to introduce desalination as an option. It is an expensive option and it is reflected in significant price increases. These increases are giving rise to many political problems and issues around the world. It is not merely an Irish issue. The price in Paris is approximately €2.90. Glasgow's price, interestingly, is €4.30. Glasgow had many of the problems that Irish water authorities have in terms of an old network. As late as 15 years ago, the city had an old cast iron network with significant corrosion, because its water was corrosive, and many residual legacy issues with which it had to deal.

In the United States, water seems to be cheaper. We make the point that elements of public subsidy are obviously applicable in many jurisdictions. In the case of the German examples, it is likely that there is no public subsidy because that is the EU principle. It is also clear, that Germany, for example, has a high rate of renewal of mains. They replace 1% to 2% of their network every year. That is astronomical compared with what we do. That means they can be down to, perhaps, 10% leakage. To have such a high level of replacement is the only way of getting to it.

Are those the for sale prices per cubic metre, not the manufacturing cost per metre?

Mr. Jerry Grant

Those are the charges to the customer.

Would it be possible for Mr. Grant to furnish the committee at some future date with the corresponding manufacturing cost per litre and for sale price per litre?

Mr. Jerry Grant

It is difficult to get. I am assuming the for sale price is the cost, for example, in Australia, because they are public authorities. If they are private bodies, it is a different story, but then one will not get the information.

The manufacturing cost of water in Ireland is approximately €2.60, according to the earlier presentation.

Mr. John Tierney

That is for combined water and waste water.

Mr. Jerry Grant

The concern we would have about quoted prices is the extent to which the capital cost is factored in, in other words, having a revenue stream that will generate capital to invest in as well as run the system. They are separate in Ireland. We can certainly reference a number of papers that provide information and I will send the committee those.

Our broad view is that Ireland needs a fit-for-purpose organisation that has the capacity to deliver 21st century water services. It must have a sustainable funding basis that can meet the needs of the whole-life or true costs of water and it must be able to deliver this with appropriate security and strategic capacity in order that the planning objectives of the country can be met and to avail of any industrial or economic advantage opportunities.

I thank Mr. Grant, Mr. Power, Councillor Bugler, Councillor O'Brien and Mr. Keyes. I now open up questions to members of the committee.

I welcome the delegations. It has been quite an informative presentation. They set out clearly the future of the water project for this country over the coming years.

I want to pick up on a couple of points. They seemed to think that the local authority representatives are concerned to some extent about the privatisation of water and, in particular, the loss of control of that water. There seems to be some divergence between Engineers Ireland and the local authority representatives. I will ask a couple of questions and they can answer in due course.

How can the local authorities continue control on an individual basis, recognising the overarching difficulties with the demand predicted by Engineers Ireland? Do they see a role for the local authorities working collectively on a strategic plan and, therefore, being in a position to compete with the notion of a private enterprise or the privatisation of water? Is it incumbent on local authorities to get together and indicate, through their associations, that they can solve this issue without outside influence or without potentially handing control over to the private sector, which has happened in other areas?

I wish to ask the representative from Engineers Ireland about some contentions he raised about the sustainability of the water supply. He referred in particular to the finding of alternative sources. He identified the project in which Dublin City Council had been involved, that of taking water from the River Shannon. Historically, the contention was that the water would be taken from north of Lough Derg. Will he indicate his view on that? Can he explain why one proposal has provided a better option than the other, or did it come down to there being local objection to the proposal? Was it due to the fact that there was a strong lobby group in the Lough Allen-Athlone region which effectively rejected that proposal? I do not believe the representative mentioned this but I noted as I read through the presentation that his group believes the extraction of water from Lough Derg will have no impact on the resource or services in place there, with particular reference to boating, fishing and the tourism potential of that lake. That all feeds into the work of this committee.

Does one of the witnesses wish to respond first on those points? If the exchanges and responses are brief, we can proceed quickly and members can speak again.

Councillor Michael O’Brien

What Deputy Dooley said is the kernel of the issue. We had been concerned for quite a while about the difficulties that have arisen in recent years on foot of the building boom. I will give an example. Kilkenny County Council has been twinned with Leicestershire in England for the past 25 years and not a single one-off house was built in Leicestershire in the past eight or nine years but houses were built everywhere here. We had a problem in that respect ten years ago but we have a much bigger problem now. The Deputy was right in identifying that the issue relates to investment in the infrastructure. I am being parochial in mentioning that even in Kilkenny city, the condition of the water supply network, which has been in place for almost 100 years, is very serious. As a body that represents the city and county managers, we have a fairly balanced view on the distribution of public resources and we assist in their distribution in a fair and equitable way. The amount of money being spent in the towns dotted around the country - what is happening outside the towns is out of sync with what is happening in the towns - is accentuated by the amount being spent on the public water supply network in those towns. In other words, we cannot even attempt to do something for the remote rural parts of Ireland. We are spending money mainly in the built-up areas and some of those areas have developed around towns which have had a public water supply for the past 100 years. The main issue is the lack of investment and it is much worse now compared with a few years ago.

I ask Councillor O'Brien to be concise in his replies.

Councillor Michael O’Brien

The members share the concern we have on the issue of privatisation. We have seen what has happened in other countries. While our organisation represents seven cities, including Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford as well the county councils-----

I ask Councillor O'Brien to give precise answers.

Councillor Michael O’Brien

-----we as a nation have a major problem and we are told the only way we can raise the necessary funds is through the establishment of Irish Water, but we would have a concern about the issue of privatisation.

Mr. John Tierney

We do not support privatisation in any form. We would see any new model, if there were to be one, remaining in State hands. We are advocates of local government but we have been moving, particularly in the Dublin region, towards a shared services basis in recent years. With issues such as the moratorium in place, we have to examine a greater sharing of services, even in the short term.

The issue of funding needs to be addressed. In any new model that is brought forward, some system will have to be found to attract private sector capital funding because there will a deficit of public capital funding. That must be addressed. We hope that any new model, and we will work with whatever proposal comes forward, would draw on the strengths of the current system and would be delivered through the local authorities, whether locally or regionally, to address the funding issue.

I have a number of questions. In terms of the €453 million that one of the representatives said would have to come directly out of the local government fund, presumably if Irish Water were set up, a similar amount would be transferred to it rather than such funds being retained in the local government system. One could take a decent gamble on that happening.

In terms of loans for water facilities that have been taken out by local authorities, do the representatives expect that they also would be transferred to Irish Water, or would the local authorities have to continue to pay those?

It is obvious that there is a difference of opinion within the local administration and the local government system. We have councillors and management representatives who have opposing viewpoints, which is very obvious.

It must be budget time.

There are parts of the county where there is a problem with the water supply in the winter and in the summer and there is the potential to have a metering system. How do witnesses envisage the problem could be overcome in circumstances where there is no security of supply? I would be interested to hear the answer to that question

We have a managed system in terms of the River Liffey. Seven local authorities draw water from the River Liffey. They pay one or two local authorities to purchase the water and they negotiate when there are shortages and so on. The system works and it is perfectly possible to manage such a system. I would not be against the Shannon system as long as it would take account of local concerns.

I am conscious of the issue of levies. How would levies be amalgamated? Do the representatives consider that the levy system should be retained to provide an income stream for the development of infrastructure? If so, how would that be decided among all the local authorities nationally? That would be quite difficult to do when there would not be a return for a locality and where the decision on development levies would be retained locally. That would be quite a serious hurdle to overcome. If the levy system were not retained, that would represent a loss of a major income stream.

I note Mr. Grant wants to respond to a point and I will then call the representatives of the managers and of the ACCC.

Mr. Jerry Grant

I wish to respond to the questions I was asked by Deputy Dooley. In regard to privatisation, Engineers Ireland has no interest in that. We see a publicly owned body as being the basis of managing the delivery of water. We recognise that the private sector, of which we are a part-----

(Interruptions).

Mr. Jerry Grant

Absolutely, and that has been our history. Deputy Murphy hit the nail on the head in terms of the ability to manage water and resources. Lough Derg is capable of being managed very exactly between the various competing interests - between Ardnacrusha and any abstractions - without changing the levels in the lake. Because it is capable of being managed to levels that have been defined and agreed, which do not have to change in the future any more than they did in the past, there is a basis for doing it with no impact on the operating conditions. That could be copperfastened by not abstracting in low flow periods. It is on that basis, and one cannot say that about any of the other parts of the Shannon system. It is not capable of managing the other parts of the Shannon system to that extent and therefore we would never be able to show definitively that we would not have an impact whereas, subject to the planning process, it is our view that can be demonstrated for Lough Derg.

Mr. Tom Curran

To answer the Deputy's question, regarding the €453 million, we are saying that is the shortfall in terms of what it is costing us to provide the services as against the income streams we are getting in. We would be cognisant that we would not lose that €453 million. What we are saying is that out of our local government fund a contribution or portion of that €453 million is going towards the cost of water services. If the entire €453 million were taken off the local authorities it would have a serious impact on other services.

In terms of the loans and liabilities, that will be a major issue if a national utility is set up in that if they are taking all our assets, which again would be an issue for local authorities. They would also have to take all the loans and liabilities and issues regarding wayleaves and ownerships would have to go with them. We could not be left with part of that if we do not have an income stream to deal with those issues on a long-term basis.

There is always an issue on the question of metering where there is not a resilient or guaranteed supply of water or where water is cut off from time to time. All we can say in response to that is that if someone is paying on a meter basis they are only paying for the water they use, not for the water they are not getting. We accept that where people are paying for water we must ensure that we are giving a regular and proper supply.

In terms of the levies, currently each local authority draws up its own levy scheme. That is based on the water pricing policy in terms of the cost of providing the infrastructure. If they are all transferred and the capital infrastructure is being provided at national level, more than likely the levies would transfer over to the national utility and there would not be a need to generate local levies for water services for something we are no longer providing.

Councillor Michael O’Brien

Deputy Catherine Murphy's question on the levy is interesting. From the discussions we have had in our organisation what we are talking about is the level of excess above and beyond what is needed in a household or business. If we have a scientific method of determining a fair level of supply to a household the issue of excess is what we are talking about levying. That is why we mentioned earlier that the investment in the network is important. We are a constituent body of the congress of local and regional authorities of the Council of Europe so our members have access to what happens in other parts of the world. Most European countries simply cannot understand how we could spend so much money raising, treating and transporting water to feed animals as that is unheard of anywhere outside of Ireland. If a levy is imposed it will control the excess. The major concern here where we have lots of water may not be a concern if we have control over the water the taxpayer provides and if it is used in a way that treats water the way it should be treated, as a basic necessity for people. Engineers Ireland have said also that we can bring down the level of wastage through investment. If we control the excess of drinking water the country will not be in as bad a position as we think it is now. That is the conclusion of the organisation.

In regard to the presentation from the three groups, I welcome the fact that they appear to be unanimous on the issue of privatisation. However, I take seriously the views of the general council of county councils because this is the group with the democratic mandate. Not wishing to take from the other two groups, at the end of the day engineers are a sectoral interest as are county managers but the general council of county councillors-----

Councillor Michael O’Brien

We agree now and again.

-----has a democratic mandate. A concern of Irish Water is privatisation, that is, that one unit of an organisation can be privatised. Obviously I am opposed to that. The other concern is in regard to the delivery of services and value for money. The county councils are in place, however imperfect, and a level of expertise has built up. There is also local knowledge. Those of us who served on local authorities know the local water-keepers and the engineers. The longer they are in the area the better they know every twist and every value in the pipes and their weaknesses.

I recall the past couple of winters and compare the response here with that in the North. Our colleagues in the North had major problems with Northern Ireland Water which the British Government put into the hands of a single unitary body prior to the setting up of the Northern Assembly. The current political parties had no part in this but that is what they inherited. However, they had huge difficulties to the point that Louth County Council exported water into Armagh and south Down. That was cross-Border traffic going in the other direction. The point I make is that the unitary system showed up a fatal flaw. If the system is not responsive and if the local area engineer and local water keeper cannot be contacted and if there are not regular area meetings of county councils where local members have a direct input the system will not work. There is a rush to centralise all services. If it is set up as one large body to control, direct and operate the system it will be more expensive and less responsive. We can have shared services and combined tendering within a number of local authorities but we are heading towards a huge block that will be difficult to manage.

Various points were made in regard to group water schemes. We saw the hut and the new system - we are all for modernisation. Is Engineers Ireland seriously telling the committee that local authority staff cannot be trained in the operation of a small computerised system? The car we use to travel home this evening and the washing machine have got computerised systems. I am sure most people present can use a washing machine. They are not much more complicated than the water treatment system. Local authority staff are capable of doing this. The Portlaoise waste water treatment plant cost €22 million and sucks almost €2 million per year out of a small local authority budget. Therefore, it comes at a very high cost. The costs can fluctuate depending on new directives from the EU in respect of waste water. Is Engineers Ireland saying that local authority staff cannot be trained to operate those facilities on a design and build model instead of a DBO?

Thank you, Deputy Stanley. The first question is directed at Mr. Grant and then on to councillor Phyll Bugler.

Mr. Jerry Grant

Specifically on the DBO, the point I make about a plant such as the waste waster treatment plant at Portlaoise, is that this is the true cost of running the plant. There are two issues for a local authority if it was handing that plant over on commissioning. It would have to meet that cost anyway because it is the cost of sustainably operating the plant and replacing the parts over the 20 years. That cost has been built into it and is inescapable. The second point is the ability of the 34 local authorities to take on these plants. The managers have already referred to the cost of doing so. To take on the operation of these plants and the risk of the design and construction, which is inherent in them, and deal with that one year after construction is a very substantial risk. From a value for money point of view it is certainly most cost effective to build that type of facility through a long-term DBO.

There are many other treatment plants. By and large, water treatment is not as difficult in technical terms and there is a long tradition of it being done in this country. All of the plants are assessed on an individual basis. In the case of extremely sophisticated water treatment plants, however, because one is going into the marketplace and buying technology from various sources, one wants the person who is selling it to guarantee that it will work for 20 years. That is what local authorities are up against in this regard and they are obliged to take huge risks. It is a case of horses for courses. Meeting the standards that apply in respect of the River Triogue in County Laois will be an extremely expensive business. Ensuring compliance with these standards will eat up a great deal of money, regardless of whether the project is undertaken on a private or a public basis.

Councillor Phyll Bugler

I am in complete agreement with the Deputy on the fact that the infrastructure and staff resources built up by the county councils for many years should remain with them and that Irish Water's remit should relate to the co-ordination of major cross-country improvement schemes. County councils are of they view that they have complementary services available under the one roof. If, for example, a water pipe bursts, not only will we dispatch water services personnel to deal with the problem but we will also have road maintenance staff on hand to instigate traffic diversions, while local fire brigade staff will be present if there is a need to pump excess flood waters. Such co-ordination and flexibility will be absent if the infrastructural and staff resources to which I refer are taken away from county councils.

Mr. John Tierney

I point out to Deputy Stanley that we are sectoral representatives of local government and are very proud of this fact. I would not swap the staff in Dublin City Council's water services department for anything, as they are excellent. I could not contemplate a new system being put in place without this resource being utilised. If the new system is to be really effective, it will certainly have to include that resource.

I remind members that the purpose of these proceedings is to obtain information to assist us in compiling a report. We all have our own value judgments which can be fed into the commentary. However, the critical point in asking questions is to obtain the benefit of the knowledge of the experts brought before the committee rather than making a series of value judgments. We can list these judgments when we are composing the conclusions to be included in the report.

I thank our guests for their presentations. Deputy Stanley referred to washing machines. There is never a difficulty in turning on the washing machine in our house. Problems only arise in hanging out the washing and ironing it when it is dry. I suppose that could be described as the administration element of the process.

The major concern for both domestic and industrial users is that water will be available when they require it. As a result of bad weather during the past two winters, people lost their water supplies and came to the realisation that water was a necessary resource which had to be managed and financed in a proper manner.

I wish to concentrate on three areas. We have taken water supplies for granted in the past. The local authorities have done an excellent job in providing such supplies. How important is the supply of clean and copious amounts of water for multinationals and others seeking to establish industrial operations here and also for indigenous entrepreneurs seeking to set up their own businesses and create employment? Major employers have informed me that a good supply of water is rated at the same level as a good power supply.

I am concerned about the fact that planning for the provision of water supplies - our guests touched on this matter briefly - contemplates a period of 20 to 30 years. Up to now, it has been a case of crisis management. The view has been taken that if the pipe network is still intact and water flows when taps are turned on, we can push back remediation works for a further five years or so. In other words, we have not been replacing pipes, etc. It was stated between 1% and 2% of the pipework should be replaced each year. Is that the norm and do the figures provided include the built-in cost in this regard?

As Councillor Bugler stated, there is joined-up thinking on the part of the local authorities when dealing with burst pipes, etc., because they can have water services, road maintenance and fire brigade staff on hand. We have the capability to match up in respect of that element. One of the concerns in the context of linking Irish Water with the local authorities relates to local development plans and the prioritisation of areas for either industrial or residential development. How can we ensure areas chosen for development by local authorities will be serviced by Irish Water? How can we lock matters down in this regard?

There is a need for huge investment in the development of water supplies - whether they come from the River Shannon or elsewhere - for the 11 or 12 counties in the eastern region. When will the decision on this matter need to be made? If we do not make it by the middle of 2012 or 2014, for example, when will the impact be felt in the eastern region? I refer to the cut-off point at which we will not be able to meet the demand for water and when job opportunities relating to foreign direct investment will begin to be lost.

Mr. John Tierney

The Deputy raised a very good point on employment. In the context of its servers, etc., Google is locating in this country because of our climate. Ireland is an extremely stable place and has a huge number of things going for it terms of education and a range of quality-of-life factors. If we could factor in water capacity of, as Mr. Grant stated, between 10% and 20%, it would make Ireland one of the best locations in the world. Emigration is at a crazy level. Would it not be better to have the people who are being obliged to emigrate working somewhere in Ireland and remaining close to home? That is one of the major reasons for ensuring there is proper capacity within the system. The Deputy referred to a cut-off point. Depending on economic and population growth in the interim, we will begin to encounter difficulties between 2016 and 2018.

The Deputy also referred to development plans. This is an aspect that will have to be taken into account in any strategic planning undertaken by Irish Water, which will be obliged to identify where the demand is throughout the country and how it is going to deal with it on a priority basis. It will be obliged to consider that matter. If it is established, there will be a need for it to engage in a huge amount of co-operation with local authorities in order to ensure that dealing with demand proceeds in a planned way.

Councillor Michael O’Brien

Deputy Humphreys is correct. If we invest a figure of 2%, that represents a great deal of money but it would still only be a 50-year plan. New technology relating to the composition of pipes, etc., is coming on stream. However, in the rush to build houses in recent years, inferior materials - container loads of plumbing fittings and so on - were imported into the country and used in construction. The inferior quality of these products has not yet become apparent in some instances. In my county, however, difficulties are already becoming apparent.

The Deputy identified an issue in respect of development plans which we had not yet identified, namely, how a privatisation element relating to this matter would be contemplated within the plans. The committee will be obliged to deal with this matter when it is compiling its report. It must be remembered that in addition to delivering public services, local authorities act as development agencies.

Mr. Kevin Murray

Deputy Humphreys' point on security of supply was very well made. He is correct in stating proper finance must be available in this regard. In the context of how Ireland treats its water service, it is critical that there be a sustainable funding model in place for all parts of that service. We are blessed with a natural advantage with the water we have on this island and we must reinforce that and realise it is one of the features that helps us to attract industry here. To give an example, there was a major pipe burst in Cork city recently which made one of the multinationals in the city a little nervous about whether that could happen again and it could have a break in supply. That turned its mind to the cost of water in Ireland compared with the cost in the UK or elsewhere in Europe. We must ensure we are always capable of providing water at a competitive price with security of supply wherever we have inward investment.

Can I clarify one point? Unfortunately, Mr. Tierney has left. He mentioned the period from 2016 to 2018. Is that when there will be a supply of water to the eastern region or when the decision will be made? Whatever technology is decided upon, there will probably be a five year run in. If a decision will be made in 2016, the first drop of water would probably come on stream in 2021. What are the figures in that respect for the eastern region?

Mr. Jerry Grant

That is a real problem. In terms of the period 2016 to 2021, 2021 is the latest date by which water would be needed or that we would run out of water. We have to work back from that through a construction period of probably five years, a procurement period of perhaps two years and a planning period of two to five years. In reality, we would say we need to move forward now with planning to be sure it can come on stream in time.

I welcome the local authority representatives and those from Engineers Ireland. Mr. Tierney, who has left, said he could not envisage those dealing with a system of a national organisation who would not use the expertise of the local authorities. I do not believe there is expertise in the area of water anywhere in the country like that which we have in the local authorities because no other body in the country has a supply of talent dealing with it on a day-to-day basis, however that will be utilised. We must recognise there will be change to have integrated economies of scale and there is the issue of how that can be merged.

Councillor Bugler said there is no point in reinventing the wheel, that we must utilise the different agencies in place, which should work together and we should gather their information. The nuts and bolts of how it will be done is a matter for another day. A marker that could be put down today is to say that we do not have to go outside the country to seek more expertise. If we have expertise in the country, we should use it and not, as Councillor Bugler said, reinvent the wheel both in terms of manpower and the facilities that are in place.

The Engineers Ireland presentation listed only three roles for local authorities, namely, strategic economic development and planning, catchment management and aquatic environmental protection and the third one of storm water collection and flood control, on which I have a question. It relates to the question Councillor Bugler raised in that rapid response management is needed on the ground. The representatives will know that councillors are telephoned the minute a person discovers he or she has a burst water pipe, it is not the water authority wherever that will be based. There is the question of how this will be integrated on the ground. The representatives of Engineers Ireland may have an answer. I am not sure what their reference to "catchment management" means, if it does not mean how the service will be managed in each local catchment area. Another member asked a question on the security of supply.

I was interested in the information given in the table setting out the cost of water in different cities. I note our nearest neighbour, the UK, was not included. Is that because the cost there is higher? It would be interesting to have that figure included.

I apologise for having missed some of the proceedings as we had to leave for a vote in the Seanad. Mr. Tierney mentioned the figure of €2.60 per cubic metre, which was the cost of production for supply and that is for combined water and wastewater, and the Chairman asked a question on this. I would like to get the cost for them separately. Eventually water will be metered and we will have to pay for it. We will need all the details before any decisions are made. I thank the representatives for the information they gave us.

Mr. Jerry Grant

With regard to local authority resources and so on, we are in agreement that the technical capacity to deliver first-class water services is available in this country and we are also in agreement that it is the current local authority staff who will do that. Our points relate to the need for a regional planning approach to get scale, economies and organisation in this regard. We recognise that no matter how this is organised, there is a raft of things that will have to be organised between the local authorities and Irish Water or whatever it will be. I said at the beginning that strategic five-year plans would have to be the basis for the way in which water services are planned and administered. They have to relate to and satisfy the needs of the development plan. That is important.

Before Mr. Murray replied Mr. Grant made an interesting comment about a company in my city that had a water supply problem during the Christmas period. A number of companies were affected, one of which was a brewery, which I mentioned at a previous meeting. I wish to tease out two points and I direct this question to the representatives of the managers and Engineers Ireland. It has been consistently said that the vast majority of leakages occur between the main system and supply to the household. That is where the main loss of water in the piping system occurs. Is that the representatives' analysis and, if so, what do they consider to be the contributing factor for why the leakages occur there? Is it due to the materials being used, the development of driveways, extensions, cars being parked in driveways or some other factor?

I have a further question and if the representatives do not have this information I ask that they forward it to us because it is critical. It follows on what Senator Keane said. With regard to the production of water privately, how do we rank internationally? How much does a company pay for a cubic metre of water in Ireland and what is the comparable cost in other European countries? How do we rate in terms of supply and guarantee of supply? Do we have a good supply record? As Mr. Tierney said earlier, we will have to put on the table not only the price of water for the business sector but a guarantee of supply. How do we rate in those two areas?

Mr. Kevin Murray

The Chairman touched on a number of important points, the first being the leakage question and the debate about how much of the leakage is on the consumer side of the connection. There is not enough data to be able to say conclusively how much leakage is on the consumer side and how much is on the local authority side. That is the first point to make. We can look at the private group water schemes where they have examined this issue because they have done near universal metering in some of them and many of those would not be too dissimilar to many of the smaller local authority schemes.

The figures for customer site leakage that I have seen have ranged between 15% and 85%. What we can learn from that is that the spread is so large it is difficult to be conclusive about how much it is. One can say on average it is probably 50%. An interesting study by Dublin City Council examined a district in the inner suburbs in the Merrion area. It examined about 220 houses and a few small businesses. It found that no matter how much mains rehabilitation it tried to do, it could not get the unaccounted for water down below 19%. I believe Mr. Leahy has talked to the committee about this. It was when it found that one house in 50 had a leak as large as 50 houses put together that it started to identify the problem. I would not say this could be said to be a customer problem. The customer has not been asked to pay water charges. There was no indication that this water was disappearing. We must find a way of dealing with these issues by working with the consumer rather than penalising him or turning him into some sort of enemy or victim. One suggestion is to develop systems where the water authority or utility can offer some grant assistance to consumers who find leaks but equally there is a responsibility on the consumer if a leak is identified to take steps to deal with it. This is a problem we must resolve together.

The Chairman asked how much the companies in Ireland pay for water and about security of supply issues. By and large, businesses in Ireland are fortunate in terms of security of supply. There are isolated incidents, for instance when we had extreme bad weather during which the hospitality sector suffered through disruptions but by and large the Irish water sector has been able to provide water. The pharmaceutical sector in Ringaskiddy would not be able to survive if not for a great big pipe that connects it to the Inniscarra supply of water. We must not lose sight of the fact that we have a tremendous natural advantage with the raw water we have at our disposal.

Mr. Jack Keyes

I will add some comments from a Cavan County Council perspective and give similar responses to those important questions. Regarding leakage from the public mains versus those within the boundaries of houses, we estimate that overall the figure for leakage inside the boundaries of houses is less than 50%. If we take the group scheme example, a figure of 50% would not be a surprise. Anybody who has walked the roads of rural Ireland will have seen troughs leaking over the years, and the leaks stopped suddenly once the meters went in. It was amazing to see the transformation. We reckon the percentages could be between 20% and 30% but we do not yet have adequate data.

Regarding the Merrion area studies, the pipes going into the houses in an older area are probably old lead pipes that have been in place for 100 years or whatever. One hopes it would be very different to a new estate. I take on board what Mr. Jerry Grant said earlier that, unfortunately, some of the quality of the work done by developers during the boom is not quite up to standard. That is an unfortunate legacy we have to take forward.

Regarding production supply, the record so far has been phenomenally good. We certainly know about it when somebody's water runs out. Electricity can be cut off but water is the one service people will scream about when the supply stops. There were some problems in the freeze last year during the exceptionally cold weather but from an industry point of view the record is good.

If we are talking about the major industry in Cork or wherever the aim would be to have resilience of supply, similar to broadband. Ideally, if there is a crucial industry in an area it should have at least two sources of water to ensure it can never run out.

We are due to deal with the pyrite issue at 5 p.m. and I want to give Deputies a short break before we begin that discussion. I will composite the next series of questions in the following order - Deputies Ellis, Daly, Flanagan and Corcoran Kennedy.

I thank everyone for their presentations. People always talk about metering but it does not make sense to examine metering when there is water loss of 41%. As far as I can recall the figure is much lower in Dublin city but if 41% of water is lost through leakage we must rectify that. People have said it would cost €500 million to €1 billion to meter every area. That money would be better spent trying to address the water problems throughout the country.

The Engineers Ireland representative stated that 5,000 jobs have been lost over a period as a result of the cutbacks and so on. That is an area we could examine with a view to creating more jobs. Other jobs would flow from the use of that money and we would put it to better use than putting it into installing meters.

Everyone here appears to agree with a public system but underlying that are charges in terms of the local authorities. I have always opposed charges; we all pay enough taxes. Everyone says he or she is in favour of a public water system and there will be charges as a result of what some of the managers have done. Dublin City Council is planning to privatise the waste management service, which will affect bin charges and so on, and, therefore, there is a price to be paid in terms of the way the local authorities examine the issue.

If we opt for a metering system my fear is for the many large families who will be affected. It is one thing for businesses to be metered. They are commercial enterprises that make money but there are very big families in working class areas and how will we deal with the issue of waivers for those people? They will not be able to afford it.

I thank everyone for their contributions. An investment in technology is important because we have had instances where people have been out searching for water leaks. I dealt with a local authority recently where it took a long time to find the leaks. We need more up to date technology to deal with leaks.

When we talk about the need for an enhanced water supply the issue of wastage and dealing with water not accounted for is critical. I have two questions for Engineers Ireland. There is a contradiction in some of the information given regarding the British example. The point was made that despite massive investment the leakage level had allegedly only decreased to 20% whereas in reality it had probably decreased to not even that level. The German example was then cited whereby through continuous investment on an ongoing basis leakage levels of approximately 10% were quoted. I thought best international practice was approximately 15%. If the Germans have got it down to 10% fair play to them but I would like to know how they did it. We have got it down to quite low levels - South Dublin County Council in particular - without metering. I would like some more information on that. From a technological point of view it is entirely possible to reduce that figure below 20%. I ask the representatives to deal with that in more detail. Is it because of the nature of the pipework?

Evidence was also given, which I have heard previously and believe to be accurate, that the best impact on consumption of the introduction of individual metering is a reduction of 10% initially but that then begins to diminish. The best immediate impact, therefore, would be a 10% reduction in consumption following which it will start to fall off. What would we get for an equivalent investment of €500 million to €600 million? That is the cost of installing domestic water meters which will have at best a short-term 10% reduction in water consumption? What packages could be put together to facilitate and subsidise a grey harvesting water system in households? That would have a far greater impact in terms of much lower consumption. What would we get for that money in terms of water conservation measures?

My last point is about privatisation. I missed the start of the meeting but it appears everybody disagrees with privatisation. Some of the evidence I heard accepted a huge degree of privatisation in the continuation of the design, build, operate, DBO, model and that level of privatisation that is already in place, particularly at the capital level. I would like more information on how we can save over time, if that is a cheaper model. That is an important consideration.

Everyone here seems to agree that the depth of knowledge of the council staff is phenomenal. Everyone here seems to agree, although I could have got this wrong, that privatisation would be a bad idea, due to the problems associated with co-ordination and so on. However, we have this Orwellian situation where everyone agrees with this position, but local authorities seem to be going headlong down the route of privatisation through design, build and operate. How can privatisation be a disaster and at the same time be essential? I cannot get my head around that. The privatisation of some of these water treatment plants dumps the knowledge of the people who currently work in local authorities. That is the case in my local authority in any case. It is an absolute and utter disaster for co-ordination. Can someone please explain how no one is in favour of privatisation, yet at the same time the local authorities want privatisation?

I thank the delegation for the presentations. It is nice to see some friendly faces from my time in local government.

Where does the delegation see the future of group water schemes in the context of local government and Irish Water? In areas where there have been outbreaks of cryptosporidium or any other E.coli, what were the deficiencies that allowed these outbreaks to occur and create mayhem?

Apart from seeing water as a valuable resource, we also need to look at it as a commodity. This country has a lot of water and our own supply is certain, even though we might need better management of it to ensure we have it in drier seasons. Has anyone in Engineers Ireland or in local government looked at the potential use of water as a commodity? I am thinking of the practice years ago where people would leave out their cans of milk at the end of the lane and they would be picked up and brought to a central location. Is there any potential in harvesting water on our own sites and selling it on to a central location? We are talking about how to fund local government services in the future, so is there some way that this could be diverted back to local government? I wonder if anyone is thinking along those lines because I think the potential exists.

I know it might be new and the delegation may not have an opportunity to look at it - although perhaps Engineers Ireland might be doing so - but has anyone looked at the impact that fracking might have on our water supply? We are very heavily dependant on our ground and surface water. I know the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources has asked the EPA to examine it, including the impact it might have on the environment, especially water. I would like to hear any thoughts on it.

If there is a national water scheme, how do the various groups present see their organisations linking into that? What role do they see for their organisation such a scheme?

I welcome our visitors. The CCMA document refers to the high level of compliance in water supply from local authorities, and that the group schemes are not as good. Like other colleagues, I wonder about the future of the group scheme movement, which is very significant in rural Ireland. The question of wells could be more important if water charges rise. There are limited grants for wells, but could someone tell me the situation in respect of some help for people who want to put down individual wells?

There have been two pilot schemes on water harvesting and storage in Mayo and Meath, and I hear they were successful. Perhaps someone from the delegations might be able to give me more information and maybe we could expand it, as Deputy Corcoran Kennedy has said.

When answering the questions, I would like the witnesses also to make their concluding comments. We will begin with Councillor O'Brien from the ACCC, followed by Mr. Grant from Engineers Ireland and then someone from the CCMA.

Councillor Michael O’Brien

There is a healthy tension between ourselves and the CCMA, but we share it. We presented a document here today, after a great deal of thought, so we ask committee members to look at it because it contains our considered conclusions. My good friend who used to be on Dublin City Council, Deputy Ellis, is around a good few years in the system. He, like everyone else, knows all about the origins of local government and why it is there. It was not something someone invented overnight 150 years ago. It was an organic development, where a group of people living in a settlement got together and provided combined services that they wanted for the group. One of the things we can agree on is that they must have been very careful in those days about waste. No one wants to see a waste of anything. The point we were making earlier is that the information we receive from our 102 members in each city and county council tells us that once a supply is secured for a household, they should pay for anything beyond that, such as washing their car or watering their garden. Like some people here, I cannot agree with spending money on meters either but I cannot see an alternative, given the fact that every other country that I know of does this.

Quite a number of consumers do not have respect for the water supply, which is the single most important item provided to any household in life. Most people in Ireland do not appreciate it as much as those abroad. I lived for ten years outside this country so I have a small bit of knowledge of that which I try to bring to our organisation. There are difficult questions to be answered but if the management of water is examined with a small bit of investment, then the kind of critical argument we have at the moment about the future of the water supply might not be as serious as we are making it out to be. That is basically the point we are making.

If there is to be a proper national waiver system to protect the interests of those who need that support, then it has to come from the funding of social welfare rather than local government. It is a social welfare issue. When this committee comes to its conclusions, we ask its members to ensure waivers do not reflect on local government and on the delivery of local government services, something which we simply cannot deal with, and to ensure they are shared with the social welfare budget.

Councillor Phyll Bugler

We spoke earlier about grey water. We would be in favour of the retrofitting of homes to encourage the use of grey water. We see no point in not using grey water for toilets and feeding cattle. Retrofitting is a major project that can be carried out to encourage that. There is no point in using treated water for areas where we do not have to use it.

In answer to Senator Landy's question, we would contend that the infrastructure and staff resources built up by county councils and local authorities should remain intact. Irish Water should be limited to the co-ordination of major cross-country capital projects and programme schemes.

Mr. Jerry Grant

I would like to touch on metering first. We take the view that in the medium to long term, metering is the right way to go in managing water. Like some of the people who have spoken, the idea of taking €500 million and prioritising metering over other things that must be done seems unrealistic at the moment. If we come to a leaking service or a service that is difficult to find and water is being lost, are we simply going to install a meter or will we try to solve the problem with the particular service? We have many back garden services and common services behind terraced housing. We have many problems, some of which will be very expensive to solve if we have to prioritise and get a proper revenue base. Our overriding point is that we need more money to deliver effective water services for the capital and operating costs. We do not think capital cost will come from Government in the quantities required and, therefore, we need more money. If we are to put that off until we have metering, we will spend an awful lot of money on metering - maybe much more than €500 million - and we will have to do many other things along the way. We agree that chasing down leakage is the priority and it is the only way. When we talk about Dublin and other places surviving for the next 15 or 20 years without new major sources, it is because we assume they will recover the leakage and drive it down to about 20%.

The German figure of 2% per year means that their systems are no more than 50 years old. It means they have modern, well policed systems. They are charging double the cost of water that we envisage and are putting huge resources into chasing down any leakage. The problem of leakage below 20% is that we are talking about small leaks that are hard to find. It is simply impossible to get around to finding them quickly enough to get below 20%. It is not realistic for us to think of lower figures than that.

The United Kingdom has effectively taken the approach, which we are inclined to favour, that we should monitor as best we can where leakage seems to be happening on the private side. We should force metering on people who seem to use too much water. We can also offer people the opportunity to install a meter if they think they can get away with a lower charge than the fixed charge. That is another way of doing it because people who think they are managing water well will take the meter and we can gradually build up the meter stock. The problem is that given the cost of water, the cost of reading meters and billing people is significant. It looks to us as if getting leakage down and conservation management are higher priorities currently.

Does Engineers Ireland have a position on charging for water? Does Mr. Grant's organisation accept charging for water but that metering is not the way to do it?

Mr. Jerry Grant

Our basic point is that there has to be a substantial increase in the amount of revenue available for water. That means charges.

Mr. Grant is ducking the bullet.

Mr. Jerry Grant

No. Absolutely not. We are saying we believe there has to be charging for every household. We fully agree with the point.

Does Engineers Ireland feel that metering is not the way to do that?

Mr. Jerry Grant

Our view is that metering would be the better way to do it in the long run. However, it is not practical either to wait for it or to achieve it in two or three years. We think it will be a ten-year process. We fully support the view that those who cannot afford water should be dealt with through the social welfare system. The cost of water is the same for every household and must be faced up to, but there is clearly a social dimension that has to be catered for. We fully support that. Water is a commodity and ironically it is a huge business in parts of India because it is so vital to life. In terms of economics, we are not yet at the stage where it would be viable to trade in water either within the country or elsewhere. The value of water is a huge issue. The reason we are having issues with things like cryptosporidium and so on is largely to do with plants under stress. Where we are pushing more water through plants that were never designed for it, we are putting real pressure on them. In addition, we are not getting the residence times or the treatment efficiencies. It is also related to surface water protection and keeping our sources as clean as possible to begin with.

Does Mr. Murray wish to add to that?

Mr. Kevin Murray

Yes, please, Mr. Chairman. I wish to address a point by Deputy Daly who asked whether, if we had €500 million, we would spend it on water meters. The real issue is that this is all for the consumer and trying to decide what is in the customer's best interests. If we had €500 million and all the other things we have to spend money on, such as leakage, we would have to try to get the right mix of installing meters - because they help to control leakage on the customer's side - and controlling leakage on the network, side. As regards that mix of what is the right amount, in the context of an Irish water regulator being in place, we believe the regulator should decide what is in the best interests of the consumer in terms of expenditure. Eventually, the consumer has to pay back the cost of expenditure on meters, which might be more than they save in managing their consumption.

On social protection, we do not accept that the free allowance of water should be introduced. That would be unfair, difficult to administer and costly. It costs about €2 per week to provide water for a child in Ireland. A simple way of giving a free allowance of water to a family is to add €10 to child benefit each month. It is much simpler to administer and does not add the cost into the service.

The knowledge that has been built up in local authorities is fantastic. It is important to organise that knowledge in the context of Irish Water and provide it with a sustainable funding model that will give it the scale of resources to do the necessary job in future.

A question was asked about what type of privatisation we liked or did not like, but that depends on the circumstances. In the catchment we have a raw water resource which is in the ownership of the people or the State. Local authorities are perhaps best placed to practice as custodians of that water in the long term. When we talk about water as a utility service or in the pipe it may be something where Irish Water will start to look at a national utility authority or company that can deal with the matter as a national utility service. That would have to be a State-owned company. A privatisation element would be like any other thing where there are specialist activities or services - if one can get good value from the private sector one would use it. It must be remembered that one third of people engaged in water services are in the public sector but two thirds are in the supply chain, be they providers of materials, contractors or consultants. That supply chain has been decimated in the past three years because half the jobs have gone.

A question was raised about water as a commodity, which includes energy recovery from water. The manager will confirm this, but in County Kerry they are putting turbines into gravity mains to recover energy from falling water. Therefore, as well as losing energy in pumping water, as it is coming back down the hill they are recouping some of that energy, which is the sort of thing I would expect from Kerry County Council.

I will now call Mr. Power followed by Mr. Curran.

Mr. John Power

I will make one brief point in reply to Deputy Corcoran Kennedy who asked if engineers were doing anything on the fracking issue at the moment. We are not doing anything and, frankly, it has not been our intention to do anything, but it is something we will certainly look into. In the not too distant future, we will be issuing a report on septic tanks, which should be of interest to the committee.

Perhaps Mr. Power can forward a copy of that report to the committee when it is completed.

Mr. John Power

I will.

Thank you very much. I now call Mr. Curran.

Mr. Tom Curran

Water metering and water charges go hand in hand. If it is a Government decision to bring in water charges, then the argument would be that water metering is probably the fairer way to charge for water, with fixed charges, but what should the fixed charge be? There are two areas to examine with regard to what savings would be there: leakage on the one hand and water wastage on the other. Unaccounted for water is classed as leakage and wastage combined. Sometimes it is difficult to divide the two. By charging for water on a metering basis one can deal to a large extent with the wastage end of it. If one is on a fixed charge, it does not matter how much water one is using, so waste just continues. That is the dilemma for the Government in terms of the policy and how to take it forward.

Deputy Luke 'Ming' Flanagan raised the issues of DBO and privatisation which, in some ways, come down to horses for courses. I would certainly have some concerns about the use of DBO universally. I would try to retain local expertise in small local authorities with small schemes, but a great deal comes in terms of efficiencies. We, as local authority people, are being asked to drive efficiencies in the local government sector. Many of the efficiencies are made by bundling schemes and bringing in technology so one can manage schemes remotely. If one looks at some of the old schemes primarily, we have many sources of water. We showed some of the slides with a small pumphouse where the guy comes in and pumps chlorine. Modern plants have automatic samplers, pumps and chlorine monitors, with which one can operate remotely. It does not require a caretaker to be at the plant, as used to be the case. It is a question of redeploying and having a gang of staff to manage four or five plants together, partly remotely, and who will only respond to issues that arise.

This gives rise to the argument about the merits of the DBO system as opposed to a conventional plant system. We are very much in the early stages of obtaining DBO statistics for Ireland, but the tender prices we see are substantially lower through the DBO scheme than through the conventional arrangement. This must be balanced to some extent. When the Celtic tiger was roaring, costs increased greatly, but they are now far lower. However, even a DBO arrangement at the early stage would show the figures are coming in much lower. It does tie up local authority funding and forces local authorities to create the early sinking fund for the replacement of a plant, which money was taken from our general accounts heretofore.

Senator Landy asked about the national water utility company and the role of individual agencies. A lot will depend on the role of the utility company when formed. Will it take over the total operation of water and wastewater systems or will it just deal with the capital end? As we said from the start, we have expertise in the local authorities. If the entire wastewater operation was to be transferred to a national utility company, it could not be achieved without local authority staff. It is perhaps a question of local authority staff transferring to the utility company, if that is to be the Government's decision. That said, there will be considerable industrial relations issues in this regard. Staff may not want to transfer to the utility company if it is decided that they should. This must be taken on board and dealt with in any decision taken when determining how the national utility company will work.

There is a future for group water schemes. Deputies Seán Kenny and Kitt asked about the group schemes. The biggest challenge for the schemes is presented by how they will maintain the quality of water where they are using their own private sources. Where they are using public sources with local authorities, the responsibility is not as onerous. Where they are generating the water, they have a legal obligation to ensure quality. Water is food and one could be criminally liable if a scheme was not managed correctly. As members will know, many group schemes involve voluntary members. They carry the can if there is a problem with the quality of the water supplied.

A question was asked about cryptosporidium which we have probably always had in our water. Rivers and streams from which we drank when growing up had an element of it, but, as Mr. Grant stated very well, if the water looked, smelled and tasted right, it was okay. We are now testing for everything. If we tested within many other parameters, we would find many other elements we might not want to find in the shorter term.

Outside of what Mr. Grant mentioned, there is a huge cost in over-pushing plants. We have many plants that have no barriers to deal with cryptosporidium. There is basic chlorination of water coming from mountain streams. It is good, healthy water, but one will find an element of cryptosporidium in it if one looks for it. Consequently, we need to address this issue. One of the cheaper ways of doing so is through slow sand filtration. However, if one was to start pushing the water through this system, one would defeat the purpose of the barrier. Cryptosporidiumis present in our water.

I have addressed the main points raised. If I missed any, Deputies may revert to me.

Mr. Jack Keyes

Fracking was referred to. I am based in a county in which it has been proposed. I am not an expert on the subject; none of us is because it is at a very early stage. All we can say at this juncture is that it must be examined with care. I am aware that the Government is taking a very proactive role, which is welcome, but it is very important that we do not rush to conclusions. If there are resources we can harness in a safe way, we should do so. As it is easy for people to become scared of new phenomena, there is an onus on us all to ensure the debate is balanced. If it is possible to extract natural gas without exposure to undue danger, we should not run away from that option either.

We have undertaken some studies of water harvesting. While it is great in theory, it is a question of economics. A full bottle of water would cost 0.1 cent if one were to be charged for it. Water is very cheap for businesses and the consumer. If one was to replumb a house to take in roof water, even into urinals, it would involve considerable expense that could take decades to pay back. It all comes down to the cost-benefit analysis.

I thank the delegates for assisting us in our deliberations. We would certainly appreciate receiving the follow-up information requested. Members and I are very grateful for the delegates' assistance.

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