JOINT COMMITTEE ON THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE GOOD FRIDAY AGREEMENT debate -
Thursday, 17 Nov 2011

Role and Functions: Discussion with Parades Commission

Chairman

Apologies have been received from Lady Sylvia Hermon, MP, and Dr. Alasdair McDonnell, MP. As members are aware there is a meeting on the budget in Northern Ireland today, so many people have got tied up with that. I remind people to turn off their mobile telephones. It is no good just putting them on silent. They must be switched off as they interfere with the audio systems.

The minutes of the meeting of 13 October 2011 have been circulated. As there are no matters arising are they agreed? Agreed.

The main item on the agenda today is the work of the Parades Commission of Northern Ireland. I welcome the commissioners, Mrs. Delia Close, Mr. Peter Osborne, Rev. Brian Kennaway and Dr. Michael Boyle. I understand Mr. Robin Percival is currently in a taxi and will join us later. A new Parades Commission was appointed by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Mr. Owen Paterson, in January 2011 and it has now completed its first parading session. The Parades Commission is responsible for issuing rulings relating to contentious parades throughout the year in Northern Ireland. Members of the Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement identified parades as a key priority for the committee when we discussed our work programme for the current year at a meeting during the summer. We are keen to hear about the commissioners' experiences with the most recent parades and would welcome their views on how they went.

Before asking the delegates to contribute, I must remind them that they have absolute privilege in respect of any utterances they might make to the committee. However, if they are directed by the committee to cease making remarks on a particular matter and they continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to a qualified privilege in respect of their remarks. They are directed that only comments and evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings are to be given and they are asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any Member of the Oireachtas, person outside the House or any official by name or in such a way as to make them identifiable.

I invited Mr. Peter Osborne to make his opening remarks.

Mr. Peter Osborne

Thank you, Chairman, for the welcome and introduction. I thank you and members of the committee for inviting us to this meeting. It is much appreciated that the committee has such an interest in parading in Northern Ireland. We recognise the important work that individual members of this committee and Deputies and Senators have undertaken in Northern Ireland in recent years.

We are now joined by Mr. Robin Percival. There are another three commissioners on the commission who are unable to attend this meeting, Dr. Catriona King, Mr. Douglas Bain and Mrs. Frances Nolan, and they send their apologies. Dr. Michael Boyle is a director in the organisation. The seven members of the commission and the secretariat bring a huge range of experience, background, knowledge and skills to bear on the parading issue through the work of the commission. Commissioners will refer to some of that as we make the initial presentation because all of us will make opening remarks, with your permission. More importantly, we are looking forward to the questions and discussion at the committee this morning.

The commission is a cross-section of society in Northern Ireland. There is a full breakdown of people's experience and skills, given the different backgrounds and the work of different people on the commission over many years. What we are doing with regard to parading in Northern Ireland is simply our best to manage what is still a highly contentious part of how our society works. We do our best, with others, to resolve parading where contention still exists and to help better manage parading.

This is my second term on the commission. When I was on the commission previously, I served with another commissioner, Reverend Roy Magee, whom many of the members will know. Through the 1980s and 1990s Reverend Magee did a great deal of work in the peace process and in building peace in Northern Ireland, especially within the loyalist community. One of Roy's favourite phrases was that this was a parades commission, not a no parades commission. That is something we are very aware of as we do our work.

There are approximately 4,000 parades in Northern Ireland every year. The vast majority of them occur from March to August, but essentially our work is ongoing every week of every month of the year because parading happens continually. The bulk of the parades pass off without contention and do not raise any issues. We are happy with that. What we have on our minds is not just the 4,000 parades but the parades that are contentious, and I will touch on that later.

With 4,000 parades each year, parading is part of the cultural fabric of Northern Ireland. We are very aware, and I know the committee is, of the forthcoming decade of commemorations. How we commemorate over the next ten years will say more about how our society is now than it will about how our society was 100 years ago. Similarly, how we parade in Northern Ireland at present and the issues surrounding parading reflect how our society is now, and there is still work to be done.

I am pleased that this year the number of contentious parades in Northern Ireland dropped below 200 for the first time since the establishment of the commission. That goes back to the issues that arose in the 1990s, especially around the Drumcree dispute. Of the 200 parades that were contentious in the past year, 50 specifically refer to an ongoing weekly notification to parade on the Garvaghy Road in Portadown. If one omits that 50, there are approximately 150 contentious parades and locations.

Over the summer there are between 1,700 and 1,800 parades in the space of a couple of months. The commission issued determinations on 2% of those, which is an indication that many of those parades pass off without contention. Obviously, however, we apply ourselves, particularly to that 2%. The situation is getting better, given the fact that there were fewer than 200 contentious parades this year, but there is still a great deal of work to be done.

My colleagues will mention some of the outreach and communication engagement work in which the commission has been involved. In doing that work, I certainly get the feeling that people in Northern Ireland want to move on from the particular difficulties and contention around parading. People want to resolve and move forward on parading as an issue in specific areas, but it is a hugely complex and difficult matter. People have many different emotions and views in those areas. We have a difficult role as it is a difficult job to help communities to move forward.

I wish to emphasise that while the number of contentious parades has dropped this year to fewer than 200, that might change over the next year, especially as we move into that decade of commemorations. It would be remiss not to suggest that the Parades Commission has played an important role in helping to reduce contention in different areas, in building relationships, in making people aware of the issues that are important where contention exists, in bringing people together and facilitating mediation and issuing determinations where they were necessary, determinations that are increasingly being accepted in many areas as a fair and balanced way forward.

The commission has been hugely important but an equally if not more important role has been played by leaders in our society at local and regional level - political leaders, community leaders, clergy and parading organisations in local areas. When that leadership is applied in a constructive way it has led to results that have reduced contention if not resolved parade disputes. We acknowledge that very important work, very often on a voluntary level at interface areas and sensitive locations.

We have a number of goals for our three-year tenure until the end of 2013. As a commission we are clear that we want to make progress at certain locations and to resolve parades where contention still exists. A small number of locations occupy a lot of media attention, cost a lot of money to police and raise emotions considerably during the parading season. Those occupy us a lot although we should not ignore the many other locations where parading exists and where there is contention. We want to move those areas forward if not resolve the contention that exists in association with the local leaders who have played the most important role. In doing that we want to facilitate negotiation and mediation processes and in the last ten months of this commission, we could point to six or seven areas where the commission in different ways has supported those efforts, some of which have paid off and others are ongoing.

It is important where such processes exist to recognise some of the core parts of what makes a successful process. Motivation is important. The parties to the dispute must be motivated and want to find a resolution and face up to the difficult issues. The relationships and trust building between people are important, as is leadership from the political arena, the community, the parading organisations clergy and others. People must have the capacity to deliver. Robin Percival will touch on some of these issues when he talks about some of his experience.

We also wish to strengthen some of the outreach, promotion and engagement within communities between ourselves and others and between people within communities. It is about promoting the needs around rights and responsibilities in parading and helping people understand the role of the commission in balancing those rights in making the decisions we take equitable, fair and balanced.

We want to review our processes, looking at every aspect of how the commission does its business. The body has been reviewed constantly over the years and some of those reviews have contained interesting suggestions that we wish to incorporate. We also want to engage with the Orange Order, Apprentice Boys, Ancient Order of Hibernians and other stakeholders to hear how they think the commission should do its work.

Before I hand over to Mrs. Delia Close, I will summarise our key issues: motivation, relationships, trust, leadership, capacity to deliver, issues on the size of parades, the intent of those parading and effect of parades and protests on local communities. These are the issues that we wish to help people recognise as issues and needs at the different locations and with support from Deputies and Senators, political leaders in Northern Ireland, clergy, parading organisations and community representatives, we will make progress in those areas.

Chairman

I welcome Mr. Mark Durkan, MP, to the committee.

Mrs. Delia Close

My name is Delia Close and I live in Ballymena, although I grew up in Derry in the 1950s and 1960s. Those who remember what Derry was like at the time will not be surprised to know that I became politically aware at an early age.

I then moved away, however, got married and went to live in County Antrim. I spent the Troubles teaching in a school near Ballymena. My early retirement coincided with the infamous Harryville protests in the late 1990s, when loyalists harassed mass goers every Saturday night for many months. Unintentionally I became involved in publicising the views of the parishioners. Some years ago I was then appointed to the district police partnership in Ballymena, a town that is predominantly Unionist and where sectarian division has always run deep.

Through the DPP I got to know one of the main organisers of the Harryville protest, the late Billy McCaughey, who had served a lengthy sentence for UVF-related crimes, including murder. I realised that Billy was on a journey and was now keen to improve community relations. Through him I got to know other ex-paramilitary community workers whom I and a few others met with regularly to try to defuse tensions surrounding loyalist parades in the town. We had considerable success and, to cut a long story short, in the past year Ballymena has had its quietest parading season in memory.

My experience of tackling the parading issue locally emboldened me to apply to become a member of the Parades Commission in January. That prior experience has proved to be useful and I feel I have some understanding of the thinking of the loyalist community, its culture of parading and its feeling that its culture is always under attack, that it is always losing in the zero-sum game.

There are now over 400 marching bands in Northern Ireland. Many of them have a very responsible attitude and are well organised and disciplined, with a ban on alcohol during parades and no involvement in anti-social behaviour. Organisers will point out how joining a band gives the young people something useful and enjoyable to be involved in. Unfortunately, however, not all bands behave in a disciplined way. A lot remains to be done, especially in areas where parades are contentious. It is the hope of the Parades Commission that we can improve the parading situation by engaging directly with those involved on all sides and trying to build relationships with them and, hopefully, between them. To that end, we embarked on seven roadshows in March and April, visiting the larger towns and cities in Northern Ireland and issuing an open invitation to anyone interested in parading to come to talk to us in an informal setting. A few hundred people attended these outreach gatherings and we feel it was a useful first step and we intend to repeat the exercise in the new year.

In conjunction with the Community Relations Council in Northern Ireland, we are planning a series of workshops. There are two coming up next month, and all stakeholders will be invited to send representatives. The themes for those workshops are commemorating the past and codes of conduct for parading organisations and protestors.

Last year, I spent a week in Messines in Belgium. I have an uncle buried in northern France from the First World War so I had an interest in going there to see the grave of my father's oldest brother. Mr. Mark Durkan will be aware of the war memorial in Derry and my uncle's name is on that. We were a diverse group of community members from Ballymena, including many of my friends from the Harryville partnership. Our relationships and friendships were consolidated as we visited the tragic battlefields of Flanders, a truly shared space.

Another such community trip is being planned by the International School for Peace Studies, which is run by Mr. Glenn Barr. This group is from the area that includes Rasharkin where there have been ongoing problems with the annual band parades. We can only hope that barriers will be broken down eventually to the point where parading will become uncontentious and the Parades Commission will not be required to adjudicate in future on the competing rights of residents and marchers.

A positive and constructive engagement at local level is the key to resolving or at least ameliorating societal tensions. To summarise, from my Ballymena experience I suggest that all parts of our society have a cultural identity, which is important to them, and as we look towards a shared society we all need to try to understand each other and, to quote another famous Derry person, Mr. John Hume, to celebrate our differences.

Rev. Brian Kennaway

My name is Brian Kennaway. I am a Presbyterian Minister and I come from that broad Unionist tradition. I was brought up in what people often call loyalist north Belfast. The world "loyalist" in my day growing up had certain different connotations from what it might have today. I am conscious of how society has changed but I am also conscious of the kind of conflict that still exists around north Belfast and the different perspectives on it.

I joined the Orange Order in 1964. Therefore, I have an interest in the parading tradition. It is a tradition that I hold dear. I see it as part of the whole cultural fabric of our society and hence my application to be a member of the Parades Commission. The commission consistently engages with all the parading organisations. In case there is some confusion, as I know quite often there is, that includes those from the Orange tradition. We constantly engage with numerous people from the Orange tradition.

In 1998 the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland decided not to engage with the Parades Commission but that, however, has not prevented people on the ground from engaging, that is, those who actually organise parades. The Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland does not organise parades. It may organise one next year to commemorate but it does not generally do that. It is local districts and counties and private lodges who organise parades and we engage with those people on a regular basis. I say that to emphasise the fact that the writ of the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland, which says not to engage with the Parades Commission, does not run throughout the entire institution. We engage with the Orange Order in various situations especially, of course, in areas of contention.

As has already been said, the commission is reaching out on a regional basis with the various workshops and roadshows throughout Northern Ireland. We have been very encouraged by the number of Orange men who are engaged. I think there was only one roadshow where Orange men did not turn up but in all the others Orange men came along to try to learn what the Parades Commission is all about and to make a contribution in general discussion. We were very grateful for that and we hope to continue those roadshows next year.

The commission is also reaching out in particular areas of dispute. We are doing this in a different way from previous commissioners, by being paired. For example, I am paired with Mr. Robin Percival in north Antrim which would include areas such as Dunloy and Rasharkin, and I am paired with another member who is not present, in Fermanagh and Tyrone. We are going around particular areas of contention to see if by involving ourselves and talking to local people we can find some way of ameliorating the disputes and try to find some kind of resolution. That has been a very rewarding experience but, unfortunately, as with all experiences, it has a downside, part of which is to see on many occasions how, on both sides of the community, there is still a deep-rooted sectarianism which we find very hurtful, even at this stage. Again, we have discovered that this is at the root of many of the parading disputes.

The commission is also involved along with the Community Relations Council. We are promoting another series of workshops, investigating the broader sense and the broader themes as we approach a decade of commemorations. I am sure that is the interest of this committee as well.

As already stated, as part of our remit, the commission is reviewing its process. We are examining how we have operated in the past and we are endeavouring to see how we might improve our process. We are more than willing to listen to any suggestions from any interested parties. We may eventually have to make some recommendations to the Secretary of State.

Given the tradition I come from I want to say with some personal conviction that the parading tradition is secure in Northern Ireland. The Parades Commission exists to regulate those areas where there are competing rights and confrontation. We are interested in those areas to see if we can ameliorate the difficulties.

There is a traditional right to parade. It is a civil right. The Parades Commission respects that, not only respects it, but we also wish to champion those rights. However, as we know, no right is absolute. Therein lies our dilemma when we listen to competing rights in areas of conflict. However, I am very happy with the first year as a member of the commission. I look forward to making steady and incremental progress in the years to come.

Mr. Robin Percival

My name is Robin Percival. Though originally from England, I live in Derry. I am glad to see my Member of Parliament here. I will be careful in what I say. I have lived in Derry for approximately 40 years, not long enough to develop an Irish accent, but certainly long enough to develop loyalties, friendships and commitments.

My main interest has always been in the field of human rights. I am a founder member and chair of the Pat Finucane Centre, which is an all-island human rights group. We have offices in Derry, Armagh and in Dublin where Justice for the Forgotten is a project of the centre. I am also secretary of the Bloody Sunday Trust and the Museum of Free Derry. Last year I had the honour of accompanying family members on a trip to Dublin, the day after the publication of the Saville report, to present a copy to the then Taoiseach, Brian Cowen.

More relevant, perhaps, to parading I was a member of the Bogside residents group. In 1995 I was elected secretary at the initial public meeting in the Bogside. I resigned my membership on my appointment to the Parades Commission.

The Bogside residents' group, uniquely of all the residents' groups in the North, has met with and negotiated accommodations concerning parades in Derry with all three loyal orders, most notably the Apprentice Boys but also the Orange Order and the Royal Black Preceptory. Derry has many loyalist parades which pass through the city centre. The smaller parades were never a source of contention but there are large-scale parades. The Apprentice Boys parade is the largest single loyalist parade in the whole of Ireland. In the 1990s there was serious sectarian behaviour by some Apprentice Boys who had gathered on the city walls and abused people who were living in the Bogside.

The agreements reached between the Bogside residents' groups and the loyal orders are often referred to as the Derry model. It shows that engagement can work and that loyal orders can meet with residents, especially Nationalist residents, on the basis of equality and mutual respect. It can also lead on to further things. The engagement between the Apprentice Boys and the Bogside residents occasioned a wider encounter between the city and the Apprentice Boys and there is now a maiden city festival which is supported by the city council. There is also a high level of support, for example, between the Museum of Free Derry and the museum of the Apprentice Boys. This engagement has facilitated the Apprentice Boys to celebrate an important historic event in a manner which can be both inclusive and also allow Unionists to be Unionist.

For me, the Derry model has been about protecting human rights and affirming equality and respect for others. It affirms the right to parade, especially in the city centre but it is also about safeguarding the rights of minorities. In Derry, it is the Unionist community which is the minority and particular attention must be focused on protecting their rights in the city to celebrate their culture. In other areas, the model might be about protecting the rights of small Nationalist communities.

The irony of all of this is that the Parades Commission had little to do with Derry. It provided support for one of the first engagements between Bogside residents and the Apprentice Boys and, currently, the commission supports engagement between the business community and the Apprentice Boys because although there is agreement, this does not mean there are no issues. Issues remain around a lot of trade in the city and around unacceptable behaviour. However, that said, the model shows that when the focus is on protecting the rights of minorities and on accepting compromise, solutions that work are possible.

The nature of parading in the North is changing. After the Drumcree stand-off, many Orange parades were opposed because the attitude of the Orange Order was seen as unacceptable by many of the communities through which it paraded. The right to parade is not an absolute right and with it goes the obvious obligation to show respect to and engage with those who have real issues with these parades. The divisiveness of the loyal order parades is diminishing over time, but legacy issues remain arising from Drumcree. In my view these could be easily resolved with limited goodwill on everybody's part. However, there are new issues which increasingly take centre stage.

I refer in particular to banned parades. These parades are often very large and take place late in the day or at night. They can be enormously disruptive of civic life and are associated sometimes with sectarian and anti-social behaviour. It is the job of the commission to issue determinations on some of these parades and we do so against a background of shrill noise, which suggests once again that the only way these parades can be regarded is in terms of "us" and "them" and "not an inch". Banned parades raise issues which people in Northern Ireland need to address, but it may be more helpful to address these issues in terms of a framework which puts improving community relations and minimising the negative impact on civic society at the heart of the process rather than "my community, right or wrong". The commission is very concerned about the issue of banned parades and some time in the future we will organise a much broader seminar and workshop on the issue, along the lines of the two already referred to by Mrs. Close.

Chairman

Does Dr. Boyle wish to speak at this stage?

Dr. Michael Boyle

No.

Chairman

I will open the floor to questions. Four Deputies have signalled their intention to contribute and I will take them in the order they indicated they wished to speak. I suggest we take questions from two members at a time and then take the response. We will begin with Deputies O'Reilly and Feighan and then follow with Deputies Ó Ríordáin and Ferris.

Deputy Joe O’Reilly

I warmly welcome the members of the delegation to this meeting. It is great they are here and important that we are having this engagement. I congratulate the Parades Commission on its work to date. What it has achieved is of enormous significance in the context of, to paraphrase Austin Currie, "from whence it came". Looking back at the position when the commission started, the achievement is enormous.

As Mr. Osborne or Reverend Kennaway said earlier, the parades are deeply embedded in the culture in Northern Ireland. While the parading tradition still exists in the area Deputy Conlan and I represent, Cavan and Monaghan, which is also represented by Deputy Smith who has just left, it is very much a Northern feature and we do not have the same parade culture throughout the rest of the island. Parades are a particular Northern culture and tradition and the commission must deal with their management. Reverend Kennaway made the point that there was good engagement by the Orange Lodges at local level, but that there was not always a willingness to engage at top level. Does he think there will be an improvement in that regard and that soon the top level will also engage?

In the context of the banned parades, we met the Rasharkin group here and were very struck by their concerns and experience. It seems the residents spend half the year recovering from the previous year's parade and half the year in apprehension of the upcoming parade. Is that an extreme example? How would the Parades Commission equate how the parade went off this year with their experience?

Will the delegates make further comment on the banned parades as they seem to create particular difficulty? It is a contradiction in terms that music, which is wonderful and peaceful in essence, should be the subject of controversy. What is the position with regard to banned parades and where does the commission stand on them currently? I understand the point made that in these instances the commission must make determinations. How successful have the commission's determinations been and to what degree are they accepted? Are they widely accepted and how does the commission enforce them? The commission would obviously prefer to avoid having to make determinations and would prefer a conciliatory process but it must resort to determinations in some cases.

I was very impressed by what Mr. Percival had to say about the Derry model and how well it works. That is a great example of what can be done. Are many areas picking up on that and to what degree is it being emulated?

Deputy Frank Feighan

I welcome the Parades Commission members to this meeting and am delighted to have met most of them at various functions over the past few years. The commission has made huge progress in implementing peaceful parades. As Deputy O'Reilly mentioned, residents from Rasharkin visited this committee. I am heartened that this year's parade went off somewhat peacefully and this augurs well for the future.

The next ten years are vital in the context of how we approach commemorations and all aspects of our shared history. We have this committee here, the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body also has one as does Stormont. What kind of joined-up thinking is being done by the Governments and the Executive? We need to bring those people together. Everyone is working diligently on the ground but we need to start working together with all the groups. I speak as someone who comes from Boyle in Roscommon which is the home of the Connaught Rangers. I remember the first time I went to the Shankill Road to explain that people from my area fought alongside people from that area in the Great War; it was the first time people realised that.

We visited Alexandra Park and Limestone Road a few weeks ago with the Chairman. Much work has been done by courageous people in the community who have shown great leadership. We saw the gates that had been put into the wall in Alexandra Park. My concern is that we are dealing with anti-social elements in society. We have them in Dublin and in every small village around the country. We had them in the UK where huge riots took place. In many cases it may not have anything to do with sectarianism; it is to do with the breakdown of society. We have rights and responsibilities. The Love Ulster parade took place in Dublin and riots took place in the UK. Is it time to use a heavier hand to tackle those who cause much of the trouble? Is it truly sectarianism - I accept that is an aspect of it - or is it just society breaking down? When the Love Ulster parade took place three or four months later the Garda went to homes with video evidence and people were charged. Most of the people put their hands up and said they did not know what the riot was about. Is it time now for using the carrot and the stick or just using the stick?

Mr. Peter Osborne

I will start but Reverend Kennaway will wish to comment on the Orange Order and other issues. Mrs. Close and Mr. Percival also may wish to comment. If I may, I will leave the questions on the Orange Order to Reverend Kennaway.

Members will understand that we do not wish to go into great detail about specific areas. A particular area has been raised. We have spent a great deal of time in the area and discussing it. We have attended at least two public meetings and we have met all of the parading organisations, the band and residents on more than one occasion. Through those meetings we are aware of the emotive nature of the issues around that parade which come from both sides of the community. There are stories to be told and many important things have been said to us about that parade and its impact. We are very well aware of them.

This year's parade in Rasharkin was still contentious and there were many issues around it. In a general sense it went better than in 2010. I suspect there are a number of reasons for that. We are very conscious that the way forward is to build relationships, to facilitate mediation and see if there can be local accommodation. We are actively trying to do that. We tried before this year's parade and we tried to do it immediately after the parade. On behalf of the commission I wrote to both parties on 30 August just after the parade. We are currently trying to get a process under way. There are other relationship-building initiatives that Mrs. Close has mentioned as well.

Ultimately, we do not wish to issue determinations in any area. It is a failure of local leadership and local people to reach accommodation when the commission has to issue a determination. We have issued determinations in that area and in other areas this year. We may have to do so again next year. Who knows what will happen the year after? We will continue to make efforts to try to bring both parties to the table to work things out between them but it is a difficult issue. We do not wish to issue determinations. We did so this summer on approximately 2% of parades. The main work for us is to try to facilitate mediation locally and for local leaders to work out their problems and find an agreement. Unfortunately, sometimes we have to issue determinations. Over the years what we have found in many areas that have gone off the radar is that those determinations are being accepted as a fair and balanced way forward. It may be that in some areas notifications still come in for the traditional route and determinations have to be issued but they are probably, increasingly, accepted by both parties in different areas.

We are very aware of the decade of commemorations. We are aware of the potentially large parade in Belfast in May and again in September of next year. I hope everyone in Northern Ireland is aware of the importance of those parades, especially in May, in setting a tone potentially for the rest of the summer. It is important that Governments, institutions and organisations do their best to ensure those commemorations happen in a way that is fitting. How we commemorate reflects our society today rather than our society 100 years ago. It will be interesting to see how that works. There is a limit to what Governments and others can do because inevitably there will be community and street commemorations as well. We will need to manage that as well as we can. It is part of the reason we want to have a workshop in the next few weeks with those trying to bring the Orange Order, the Apprentice Boys, the Hibernians, the Royal Black Preceptory and residents and community organisations and some of the political parties together to start to talk about responses to the decade of commemorations coming up. I am conscious that we are talking a great deal and questions are important but colleagues wish to comment as well.

Rev. Brian Kennaway

In response to Deputy Joe O'Reilly's question, I do not know whether he wants the short answer or the long answer. The question was whether I think there is likely to be engagement from the leadership in the future. The short answer to that is "No" but I am sure he wants some explanation of that. The longer answer has to do with the structure of leadership. A survey of members was carried out in October and November of 2000 when questions were asked such as, first, whether the membership believes we should engage with the Parades Commission and, second, whether the membership thinks we should engage with residents groups. My understanding is that the overwhelming response with reference to residents groups was "No", but the response to the question on the Parades Commission was "Yes". I am afraid that survey died in the water then. Members can come to their own conclusions on that.

Parading is inextricably linked to the Orange Order but it is not essential to orangeism. Orangeism exists apart from parading. The difficulty is that there is no blue sky thinking. Therefore, when people talk about commemoration or celebration the immediate response is to have a parade. There does not seem to be any blue sky thinking as to how events in the past can be commemorated apart from parading. Members must bear that in mind. I hope that is helpful.

Mrs. Delia Close

Just a very quick comment from me on Rasharkin because I did mention it and I mentioned the Messines project. I am also a member of the PEACE III partnership in the north east region, which includes the Ballymoney, Rasharkin and Moyle areas. The allocation of money from PEACE III was given to Mr. Glenn Barr and the International School for Peace Studies only a few weeks ago so the project has not started yet. It is still at the planning stage but the intention is to involve, among others, young people in particular who may be involved in parading issues around the area. It is hoped that some sort of resolution will perhaps emerge from it. At least it will be useful and educational.

Chairman

Before I take the next question, Mr. Osborne mentioned next year's commemorations. Am I correct in stating the commemoration of the covenant will be at the end of September? What commemoration will take place in May?

Mr. Peter Osborne

The two main dates next year will be in May and September. The May event is a commemoration of Edward Carson's review, in April, I believe, of Ulster Volunteers in Belfast. The signing of the covenant will be commemorated in September.

Chairman

That is on 28 September.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I welcome the delegates. It is great to hear of the great work they are doing and to learn about the marching tradition. I have family in Cavan and Monaghan, where bands and parading are more common than in Dublin. People where I am from, Dublin, regard the whole marching practice as a complete and total oddity. That is not a reference to either side of the community. From an outside perspective, it seems to be a very strange tradition. It is one about which people from my area need to learn more.

From an outsider's perspective, I have always assumed we were dealing with two minorities in Northern Ireland, a nationalist minority within Northern Ireland and a Unionist minority within the wider all-Ireland context. Both minorities have insecurities, and culture they feel they must celebrate and promote. I understand that.

Let me consider the profile of the areas in which the delegates work. I always make this point because many of the images I saw from the flashpoint areas, such as those from the early summer or those from London, are similar to those from the very disadvantaged area of the inner city where I used to teach. I refer to disaffected, disempowered young people looking for something to get excited about and to become empowered by. Is the problem essentially one that arises in poorer or working-class areas? While we are dealing with sectarianism and people's desire to reinforce a culture they feel may be under threat, is poverty not a central element of the problem?

As the Parades Commission deals with various communities, is it potentially dangerous to designate them as Nationalist or Unionist, albeit unintentionally? Is the commission very aware of this? While integration and mutual understanding are very important in the longer term, do the delegates find themselves being very careful not to regard a particular area as having a certain religious or cultural background, which practice would effectively stigmatise that area and make any sort of religious or cultural tolerance almost impossible?

I congratulate the commission on its work. There is much more for us to learn. I will be interested in the delegates' work over the next ten years as the anniversaries occur. I was very taken by a documentary I saw on the beginning of the Troubles. It showed how the 50th anniversary of the Easter Rising began to stir emotions on either side of the divide. This was one of a range of events in this regard in the mid-1960s. Are the delegates keenly aware of this and of the importance and power of such occurrences?

We very much appreciate the delegates' attendance and certainly learned a great deal from their presentation.

Deputy Martin Ferris

I welcome the delegates and thank them for making the effort to attend today. We are all equally determined to seek a resolution to the problems associated with parades that are still contentious. It was stated that fewer than 200 are regarded as contentious. I assume approximately five or six are extremely contentious; at least that is what the Secretary of State, Mr. Paterson, told us at this committee recently. He stated that the few contentious parades were presented by the media as much worse than they are. Probably the most dangerous to the peace process is the parade in Ardoyne. This is being exploited by anti-peace process groups for their own agenda.

The delegates stated that the goals of the commission include facilitation and mediation to generate the dialogue and engagement required to achieve a solution. Another goal is to reach out to affected communities, or to the people at the coalface of the marches. The delegates also stated that they are reluctant to make determinations. I concur with that. Has there been any prosecution for breaches of determinations of the commission?

Rasharkin was referred to as contentious. This committee met residents from that area. I was not at the meeting but it was very obvious to those who were that a recovery period is required by the community after the parade. Much of this has to do with flags, emblems and bands. Some of the emblems and flags are overtly sectarian. There are flags, emblems and bands from an organisation that has been responsible for actions that took place in the areas concerned.

How positive a role have people who were involved militarily in the struggle over the decades - republicans and those on the other side of the divide - played in trying to find a resolution to the problem? The delegation referred to equating traditional rights with civil rights. Owing to demographic changes in the Unionist community over the years, traditional rights based on location may not be civil rights if they are imposed on a community without its agreement. Similarly, if republicans were having commemorations in areas that were now predominantly loyalist, they would be regarded as very contentious by loyalists. Owing to demographic and geographical changes, I do not accept traditional rights equate with civil rights.

I understand the Parades Commission was to have a joint meeting with the PSNI and the PPS. Has it taken place? Could we have feedback on the outcome? Has the commission ever considered the introduction of skilled facilitators in the most contentious areas to help everybody find a resolution, temporary or otherwise?

I commend the relevant authorities in Derry. The Derry model is an example to the other areas of the Six Counties in which there are contentious parades. Everything blew up in Derry in 1968 and 1969. There is now an almost complete recognition by the majority there of the traditional rights of the minority, which is testament in particular to the people of Derry right across the divide. I wish the Parades Commission well and accept good work has been done in the past. I also recognise these contentious marches are the biggest threat to the existence of the peace process. If they could be resolved, everything would be copper-fastened.

Chairman

Quite a few questions have been asked. Were Mr. Osborne to limit the answers to approximately five minutes, it would give members a chance to ask more questions because a number of other members wish to do so.

Mr. Peter Osborne

I will respond briefly, as will my colleagues if they so wish. These were all extremely good questions and I do not think we can do justice to answering them within a few minutes. From our end, we offer to come back before the joint committee or to engage with Deputies and MPs individually, either down here or up in Belfast, at a future time. A more thorough conversation might be useful if we do not answer all the questions adequately. To try to touch on some of them, I also have family in County Monaghan and it is extremely clear that complex relationships exist across the Border and these issues have an impact across the Border. The issue of just how those relationships work, especially in respect of parading issues, probably deserves a workshop of its own.

I was brought up in an estate in east Belfast called Ballybeen and regard myself as a working-class lad. While I no longer live there, one will never take the estate out of me in terms of who and what I am. As I am sure the Deputy is aware, it is unfair to brand people from working class areas as being the only people who are sectarian in Northern Ireland, as that is not the case. However, like some of the other manifestations of the conflict, where contention exists in respect of parading issues, very often it exists in or is clearer in those areas. Parading locations that are sensitive or that are at interfaces also tend to be in such areas. Consequently, dealing with such matters is a fact. Someone mentioned the work of Groundwork Northern Ireland and the opening of the gate and tremendous work is going on in this regard. While this comes back to leadership, it is important that such work is supported by people in leadership positions across the community in political, clerical and other spheres.

Is there a danger that parading and how parades are managed help to divide communities? Yes, there is such a danger. Is it something of which we are aware? Absolutely. As we work through the resolution of some of these parading issues, of which Derry again offers a good example, this is about trying to reinforce shared societies and a respect for all. Moreover, reinforcing diversity is something for which we should aim. It is not about balkanising Northern Ireland in any way as we certainly would be opposed to that.

The Parades Commission is greatly aware of the forthcoming decade of commemorations. I will throw one other element into the mix, which is that in six or seven years' time, we will be approaching a period of commemorating the 50th anniversaries of things that took place in Northern Ireland, which are alive for people who still are living and who lived through events from 1968 onwards. Some of those events will be extremely emotional and will add to that mix of commemoration and anniversaries. Everyone should be aware of this when considering how to approach this period.

As for the 200 contentious parades, 50 of them relate to Drumcree. There probably are approximately six areas to which we will pay special attention this year. However, there also are a number of other areas in which determinations have been issued that have the potential to flare up again. Part of our job, but this is also about local leadership, concerns trying to ensure this does not happen. However, there are five or six that are particularly important. Deputy Ferris mentioned Ardoyne, Mrs. Close mentioned Rasharkin and obviously Portadown and Newtownbutler are still around, as well as a few other places. At the outset, I stated we are aware of and wish to commend the voluntary efforts people put in on the ground. At interfaces in those areas where contention exists, this certainly includes ex-combatants and others within that community. A very positive role is often played by such community activists across the community divide. I wish to reinforce the respect for and appreciation of the efforts people put in across the community divide at such locations, which is highly important.

As for prosecutions and determinations, prosecutions obviously are an issue not for us but for the police and then for the Public Prosecution Service, PPS. While I believe there have been some prosecutions, I do not particularly want to get into it. It may be a matter for a private conversation, rather than under the present circumstances. While it certainly is an issue of which we are aware, it is not something in which we have direct involvement. A meeting between the Parades Commission, the PPS and the PSNI was due to be led by the PPS. It is an initiative in which we would be willing to engage and hopefully it will happen in the near future.

Mrs. Delia Close

If I may, I wish to add one sentence. It may seem strange, if one does not really understand our parading, that one person can say there are only six parades when we state there are 200. The problem is that within those areas that one may consider difficult, it is not just one parade per year. There could be seven, a dozen or whatever in each area and that is how they mount up to over 140 that are actually contentious.

Mr. Robin Percival

I am conscious that questions are being asked that perhaps are not being directly answered. I wish to make a general point before looking at some of the specifics. The general point is we must move the debate about parading to a level that is about civic society and human rights, rather than rights for one community as against another set of rights for another community. Historically, I am sure Deputy Ferris is aware of this, in Derry for example, civil rights movements and Nationalist parades were not allowed in the city centre. This was one reason the civil rights march on 5 October 1968 became an issue. There was another issue, which was the decision by the Unionist Government to describe the civil rights march as a Nationalist parade when it quite clearly was an attempt to bring together communities on the demand for one person, one vote. I acknowledge that was not the exact term they used in those days.

Yes, the issue of demography is changing. A tradition changes over time, as must all traditions. I always have stated, I do not think any of my colleagues will disagree, that if one wants one's tradition to be maintained in some shape, form or fashion, this can only be guaranteed in the long term by some kind of accommodation. If one's baseline is that one has a right to parade and no one has a right to stop one from so doing, very few societies concur. The only one I know of is the United States, in which they have this constitutional right whereby, for example, Nazis can parade in Jewish areas. Unless one takes this extreme view, which certainly is coherent and can be defended, the sensible view is that while one has a right to parade, it must be on the basis of acknowledgement that the other side has legitimate reasons for being uncomfortable with one's parade.

People talk about Orangeism. The aspect of Orangeism that does not get talked about and with which Nationalists have a problem is not simply the insistence of having a right to parade in the latter's areas but the anti-Catholicism which is associated with Irish Orangeism. It is not simply a society that celebrates Protestant culture but is also associated with what is perceived as being a very anti-Catholic dimension. Being Protestant is not necessarily the same as being anti-Catholic. If one takes the example of the Apprentice Boys, that organisation has moved beyond being purely or even partially anti-Catholic. I believe it perceives itself to be celebrating an historic event that was important for the city of Derry, for the island of Ireland and in a European context. The focus is on celebrating this and on celebrating religious liberty. We may argue about history and what exact relationship there was to the siege of Derry and religious liberty. I would probably have a slightly different take on it than an Apprentice Boy, but that is not the issue. What has happened is that the event is now being stripped of being seen as an anti-Catholic event to one where there is a positive celebration of a culture. That is the long-term future.

One Deputy spoke about the designation of areas as Nationalist and Unionist, and the problems associated with that. The truth is, however, that the vast majority of people in the North live in monocultural areas. Even though I am not religiously Catholic, I live in an area which is overwhelmingly Catholic and is likely to be so for the foreseeable future. If we move to a more integrated society that will be on the basis of people choosing to do so; it certainly will not be on the basis of people being compelled to live with one another, because one cannot do that. That relates to the parading issue. Ultimately, if one wants to defend and maintain a parading tradition, particularly when the demographics are beginning to change, the only long-term way of doing it is through accommodation. That means meeting people, talking to them and accepting that they have a legitimate point of view, and vice versa.

On the issue of class and poverty, parades are conducted by all manner of people - working class and middle class. I do not know if there are many upper class people left. Incidentally, I am middle class and have never been afraid to say so. My parents were middle class. I do not have any children but if I did I would certainly think and hope that they would be middle class too. Middle class people parade. I have gone on anti-war demonstrations. That is a parade and is part of the fabric of society. I have been on trade union demonstrations which are also part of the fabric, although they are not seen as being particularly contentious. Some contentious parades, such as Ardoyne, take place in areas that are clearly working class. Is Rasharkin working class? I do not know. As an ex-sociologist, I am fascinated by the class dynamics that operate within that. Loyalist bands are largely rooted in the working class, but a lot of the parading organisations are not, they are middle class.

Chairman

Does Rev. Kennaway wish to make a quick point?

Rev. Brian Kennaway

Yes, Chairman. I wish to clarify a few things. I used the phrase "civil rights". I did not use the phrase "traditional rights". Deputy Ferris raised the issue of skilled facilitators. An enormous amount of time and, dare I say it, money, has been poured into skilled facilitators, especially in Ardoyne. Let me be absolutely clear on that.

Rasharkin was referred to. I understand that the committee had a group from Rasharkin here. There are numerous groups in Rasharkin. We have been to two public meetings, both of which were well attended and gave two opposing points of view. The committee ought to bear that in mind.

Chairman

We have four more questioners. Before I call them, I wish to point out that we do keep a record of today's meeting. Therefore, if there are any questions that it is felt may not have been properly answered, the witnesses might send us some correspondence which can appear in the minutes of the next meeting. That would be helpful. We have four more speakers. I am conscious of the time and we also need to move into private session to conduct some business. I will call the four questioners together in the order that I received their questions, as follows: Deputy Seán Conlan, Mark Durkan MP, Deputy Joe McHugh and Deputy Seán Crowe.

Deputy Seán Conlan

I welcome the witnesses who have an important job to do. I can see clearly from their presentation that they have been successful over the years in reducing the number of contentious parades. Rev. Kennaway referred to the right to march and I certainly believe that people have a right to march. I come from an area in County Monaghan which has been traditionally mixed and still is mixed. In the 1930s and 1940s, people from the Unionist tradition probably felt under pressure not to march any longer. My main concern is that when people have the right to march it should be in their own areas. The difficulty will arise where one is marching in areas that are no longer predominantly inhabited by people of one's own tradition and persuasion. I would find it abhorrent if a Nationalist group was to march in a traditionally Unionist area in Monaghan.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin mentioned that he is from Dublin and he might see the parades as a bit of an oddity. In fact, in Monaghan and Cavan now they seem a bit of an oddity. Over the decades, there has been a divergence between what is in Northern Ireland and Ulster. People in the southern part of Ulster would no longer see parades as something they would participate in on a regular basis. There are small pockets of communities who still do but it is not a normal part of the culture any more, as such. It seems to have diverged from Northern Ireland in that sense.

The real problem with parades is that, although people have the right to march, it cements difference and promotes tribalism in the community. Hopefully, in the decades to come that will diminish. We need to try and move away from always looking to the past and commemorating it. We should try to live in the present and create a better future for all of us on this island. That is the key thing I would like to see, although I know it is difficult. It is probably easier in Northern Ireland where there is this monoculture, than in parts of southern Ulster where people still live in mixed communities. From 1968 and 1969 onwards, people in Northern Ireland wanted to live safely in their own communities so they moved into areas of one tradition or the other. It would thus be easier to ensure that people there did parade in their own communities and were not causing friction with other traditions.

The witnesses know the issue far better than I do, but it is helpful from my perspective to listen to what they have to say and learn what is going on at the moment. One group from Rasharkin came down here and said they had no problem with church parades, which were properly run. However, they had an issue with the band parades. It really concerned public order offences, such as people urinating in their gardens and doing things that any normal police service in any state would take action against and prevent from happening. Those public order issues seem to be the main ones. I do not know how they can be addressed but the matter was raised earlier by another member of the committee.

Mr. Mark Durkan, MP, MLA

I thank the Chairman. Given what we have heard today, we can reflect on the distance we have come concerning parades. Back in the early and mid-1990s, the North found itself convulsed during the summer and politics would be transfixed in and around parading issues. Even when the talks were taking place, George Mitchell parked them during certain sensitive parades, so politics stood still and everybody ended up getting caught on either side of all those issues. Therefore, we have come a long way. In that sense, our first response today has to be encouraged, but our more important response has to be encouraging of the Parades Commission and all the efforts its representatives have described.

As an entity, the Parades Commission has been a crucial part in making that difference. The existence of the commission and the way it has handled parades, separated three wires that were crossing dangerously every summer. The three were parading, policing and politics. It kept those three wires relatively separate, which is very important. It is why some of us had some concerns with some of the proposals about making changes on parades that could inadvertently lead to those three wires being crossed. That could be exploited by others who would want to make mischief and difficulties by exploiting the emotions generated by the anniversaries falling over the next ten years. Mr. Peter Osborne rightly made the point that we should not think of that decade as only being one where we commemorate things that happened 100 years ago. The cycle of history means that we will also be ending that decade with 50th anniversary commemorations as well.

By its existence and the manner of its engagement with others, the Parades Commission has helped to make a huge difference and allowed the rest of us to concentrate on bringing forward policing and political changes, instead of being constantly held back by parades. On the issue of handling contentions surrounding parades, the Parades Commission has found itself accused of being one-sided, high-handed etc. In the past, in some cases some people have tried to tell themselves or tell others that when the commission relied on skilled mediators, it was the Parades Commission standing back and not wanting to know.

How far does the current Parades Commission feel it has succeeded in convincing people that it is not merely asking them to have a conversation with others locally but is committed to that conversation and to all such conversations? It seems that is one of important way in which the Parades Commission might be having some success in reconditioning some of the no-go attitudes that there have been among some of the loyal orders on engaging with the commission and in trying to see every conversation as a trap to bring them up to a point where they must step back. It about knowing whether the Parades Commission feels it is making some headway in that regard, what support the commission needs to that end and when the commission needs the rest of us to stay out of the way so it can continue that sort of sensitive work so one can be heard in a different way and also so one can be seen to be listening in a different way.

Deputy Joe McHugh

I congratulate the Chairman for organising this meeting because this is important. It helps to give us a perspective and it also helps us to understand the dynamic of something we were not brought up with on a day-to-day basis. It is important to acknowledge that we all come from different perspectives shaped by our own experiences. My experience and somewhat minimal understanding of parades relates to 12 July. As a young boy growing up in a farmhouse bed and breakfast, we experienced a mass exodus of people from Northern Ireland to Donegal on that date. It was a negative experience because people were coming into our home and sharing their experiences and they felt they had to leave the North on 12 July. That sent out a negative message to me as a young boy and shaped a certain perspective.

Times have changed and the presence of the delegation is symbolic of that change. The change is immense. It has reconfigured our perspective, blinkered understanding, misgivings and misconceptions. I acknowledge their presence today because it helps our understanding.

We benefitted from an economic point of view. Our household was packed on 12 July. I recall my parents vacating their bedroom and sleeping on the floor in my bedroom and my brother's bedroom to facilitate a married couple from Northern Ireland on that date. As a county, Donegal benefited and, therefore, there is always a silver lining.

My first question relates to facilitating the future understanding. The commission is trying to do great work through the schools in Northern Ireland sharing best practice about parading. Does Mr. Osborne anticipate contacting the Department of Education and Skills to go into schools in the Border area? I am being parochial but that might address some of the negative perceptions. There are parades in Rossnowlagh and Manorcunningham, which I want to learn more about and to understand. The citizens of Donegal would share that opinion.

My second question relates to potential tourism benefits. Foreigners are intrigued by parading. Would the commission consider the future of parading as a tourist attraction? Has it engaged with Tourism Ireland?

Deputy Seán Crowe

I welcome the representatives. The expression, "The parade went off peacefully", does not give an understanding of the difficulties behind parading. The difficulty in many areas is that the parade goes off peacefully but tension remains on the ground and neighbours do not talk each other. I mentioned this to representatives from Rasharkin when they appeared before the committee. They said people get on well all year round but when the marching season arrives, they stop talking to each other, particularly if there is a contentious march. That creates difficulties in communities. While the parade may go off peacefully, underlying tension remains. If that cannot be confronted, that makes life difficult. It makes it difficult for people to move on or to have normal relationships with each other.

Some people from Rasharkin pointed out that they had no problem with some parades but they had difficulties with others. However, they also pointed to simple issues. For example, only two Portaloos would be provided for a parade of 2,000. This causes disruption with people on parade knocking on the doors of locals to use a toilet or urinating in gardens or public areas.

If the initiative does not come from the community to address these issues, it has to come from outside. The commission's role is central to coming up with initiatives and it must take up the slack in this regard. In areas where lines have been drawn and local politicians will not stick up their heads on these issues, the key is that people start talking to each other. In the other areas where problems were resolved, it began with tentative dialogue and people quietly having meetings. That is the way forward.

I welcome the work being done by the commission but people with goodwill have to be proactive on these issues if we are to move on. Deputy Ferris mentioned the danger of going back. We witnessed the events on the Short Strand last year and people using contentious parades for their own ends. That difficulty will always hang over heads like a sword unless we can move forward. We are all worried about how the sensitive commemorations coming up will be handled but, again, it has to be about inclusion in order that when something goes ahead, people will feel they have been consulted. That is why we need to set up those discussions now so that when the commemorations are held, people will feel part of them.

Chairman

I acknowledge Mr. Osborne has another meeting at 2.30 p.m. and if he does not get to reply to all the questions asked, it would be appreciated if he would come back to us in writing.

Mr. Peter Osborne

I was reminded during the contributions of Deputies Conlan and Crowe of a conference I attended a couple of days ago, while wearing another hat, about sectarianism, the impact of the conflict and the legacy issues that are still around. A debate was had about the difference between rural and urban areas in how these issues are approached. In one contribution, it was said that in rural areas for ten months of the year, farmers and others talk to each other, get on very well and help each other out and then this stops for a month or two before going back to normal in August or September. However, what has happened over the previous two months is not discussed by people. The issue tends to be ignored and managed but ignoring and managing it will not resolve sectarianism and the conflict and contention that parading among other things can bring into areas. There may be separate issues in urban areas in term of how it is managed as well.

There was also reference made to urination. We want to have a debate on those issues in terms of reviewing our processes. As we do that and produce a report, we will be able to do some things ourselves in taking things forward. It may be that we need to make recommendations to the Secretary of State, which require more thought and potential legislation, but toileting and litter are constantly raised with us as issues and, obviously, we are talking about major civic events bringing, sometimes, thousands of people to the streets. They are real issues and we need to have further conversations about how those are moved forward.

Mr. Mark Durkan, MP, talked about the three wires. The phrase "being wired up" came into my head in the sense of the change that happened in the 1990s which reconnected those wires and which was important. The police, among others, would ask not to go back to a situation where they have the sort of responsibilities over parading they had in the 1990s. The commission plays a hugely important role in taking the heat out and taking the decisions on parading and providing a degree of insulation to others who have other roles to play on the ground. The contribution of Mr. Durkan's party and others and their support of the commission over the years is very much appreciated.

We do not want to issue determinations. We would prefer if those issues were resolved locally but there is something important in a determination. It is important that we are prepared to make a determination that is moving things forward because sometimes processes of mediation can be used to have further processes of mediation and, at times, it is important that a body like the commission sends out a message to say it is prepared to move the situation forward. It is an important message that determinations have to play. The fact of them is an important thing. We need not to shy away from asking for the determination when it is needed. In the last ten months, we have done that on a few occasions and making those determinations in certain areas has helped the process where people take it more seriously that they need to reach an agreement, otherwise the commission might try to reach a position where we come forward with a determination where we think the area should be going.

We also in the determinations make comment and try to suggest the road maps forward which may help other people on the ground. Some of that comes back to the hugely important role for leaders to play at local level and we reinforce this issue. In some areas - I do not want to go into them because we cannot talk about them publicly - where there has been huge success, it has been about local people, political leaders, clergy, business people and parading organisations taking control of this and moving it forward. Unfortunately, in some areas, that leadership is not there and that approach is not taken. Where it is, it has a huge impact. Part of our role is to try to engage further with political and other leaders to try to get more people involved locally moving things forward.

I am pleased to hear businesses here benefit from the desertion of Northern Ireland in July. We do not want them to benefit anymore. We want people to stay at home and we want people from Donegal to come to Belfast and other places to spend their holidays. The impact of contention on the tourism industry is a hugely serious issue. Ardoyne this year was less violent than last year but there was still a day's rioting, which was dreadful for the communities involved and the police who have to manage that. It took up the second headline in the French national news the day after. Such coverage in international terms is not good for Northern Ireland or Ireland. While we do not have a duty to take cognisance of policing or other costs, it is important in terms of local communities and political leaders moving this forward.

We will take up the point about the Department of Education and Skills. We have some contact in the North; it would be useful in the South. Deputy McHugh raised this and it is relevant. We should look at the issue of families living either side of the Border and families from the South parading in the North.

Rev. Brian Kennaway

I appreciate what Deputy McHugh said. I assume most of the folks who went to his bed and breakfast were from a Nationalist background. I am only deducing that simply because at the height of the parading troubles, as many Orangemen left Northern Ireland but they went to Portugal, not Donegal. The story is told about two Orangemen who lay on the beach. One looked at the other and said, "It is the 12th, 32 degrees, the boys are having a great day back home."

Deputy Joe McHugh

We got a good mix in different parts of Donegal. Traditionally, my parish would attract more Nationalists but Dunfanaghy would have had more variety.

Dr. Michael Boyle

In mediation circles, people talk about BATNA, the best alternative to a negotiated agreement. Sometimes for communities that have yet to come to first base in dialogue and accommodation in reaching an agreement, a commission determination is a modus vivendi. It is something that they can live with and will help them build up their own community relations while they are trying to form these relationships, understandings and tolerance. It is not necessarily something to be seen as a bad thing. For us it is a bad thing because we consider ourselves as not just being human rights sensitive but human rights champions. Everything that is a determination is an infringement on somebody’s rights. We would rather people negotiated how they play out their own rights than somebody external deciding how they do that themselves.

Chairman

I thank all members of the delegation for travelling to the meeting. The committee is appreciative of their time. I also thank them for the open and helpful way they engaged with the committee. We all learned a great deal from hearing about their experiences. On behalf of the committee, I commend them on their work to date and wish them well in the coming years.

The joint committee went into private session at 1.30 p.m. and adjourned at 1.40 p.m. until 5.15 p.m. on Thursday, 24 November 2011