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Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement debate -
Thursday, 20 Oct 2022

Architects of the Good Friday Agreement (Resumed): Mr. Bertie Ahern

Apologies have been received from Mr. Stephen Farry MP. If it is agreed, we will continue the rota whereby we rotate and change the order of speakers for every meeting. The order will be Sinn Féin, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, SDLP, Green Party, Sinn Féin, Labour Party, Independents and Aontú. We will allocate 15 minutes to each speaker - I understand Mr. Bertie Ahern is happy with that - and at the end of 15 minutes we will move on to the next questioner. We will try to ensure that everybody gets a fair opportunity to ask questions. No doubt, our distinguished guests will have the opportunity to reply.

I will read the notice on parliamentary privilege that has to be read at every meeting. I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. However, witnesses and participants who are to give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts does, and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Witnesses are also asked to note that only evidence connected with the subject matter should be given. They should respect directions given by the Chair and the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should neither criticise nor make charges against any person, persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to that person or entity's good name.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirements that they must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House in order to participate in meetings.

Before I call Mr. Bertie Ahern to make his opening statement, I acknowledge the fantastic work he has done as Taoiseach and previously in bringing peace to our country, and that he is one of the main architects of the Good Friday Agreement. His insights will be very helpful to this committee and to the country as we face into a very difficult situation, especially in Northern Ireland, with no assembly meeting, no North-South bodies and difficult east-west relations. Bertie, if I may call him that, is very welcome. I invite him to make his address.

Mr. Bertie Ahern

I thank the Cathaoirleach and committee members. I am very grateful to the Cathaoirleach for the invitation to appear before the committee as part of the hearings it is holding in preparing a report to mark the 25th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement of 1998. The initiative it is undertaking is a very important one and most timely as well. At one level, its work is about marking and recalling the Good Friday Agreement as a historical document but at another it is, of course, about reflecting on the ongoing role of the agreement as a living charter that continues to impact significantly on relations within Northern Ireland today, between North and South in Ireland and between Ireland and Britain.

So, while its mission is, correctly, placing a focus on what happened a quarter of a century ago, it also has continuing deep relevance for all of us today.

The Good Friday Agreement was the work of many hands. It required the tireless efforts of international interlocutors such as George Mitchell, Harri Holkeri, John de Chastelain, Cyril Ramaphosa and Martti Ahtisaari, all of whom spent long periods away from their friends and families. Of course, the contribution of former US President, Bill Clinton has rightly been lauded. He was remarkable. The agreement also required the Northern Irish parties to work together, even when they could barely stand being in the same room with one another. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to them for ultimately rising to the challenge, an opportunity that the moment represented in 1998.

Leadership was shown. It was shown by David Trimble and his colleagues in the UUP in working through the risks involved for unionism in agreeing a settlement. It was shown by John Hume, supported by Seamus Mallon and their terrific team at the SDLP, in fashioning many of the concepts that came to underpin the agreement. It was shown by Gerry Adams, Martin McGuiness and their colleagues in Sinn Féin, in acknowledging that the future had to be driven by exclusively peaceful, democratic means, and working tirelessly to promote that reality. It was also shown by the Alliance Party, PUP, UDP, Women’s Coalition and Northern Ireland Labour group, all of whom made critical contributions during the long months of negotiation leading to Good Friday 1998.

I know that I am in danger of being accused of running off lists saying what I have just said, but today’s occasion is about the record, and I feel it is important for me to record my acknowledgement of the pivotal role played by all those I have mentioned in arriving at the historic outcome we achieved in 1998. Of course, the particular leadership role of David Trimble and John Hume, as the leaders of the two largest parties at the time, was internationally recognised by the awarding to them of the Nobel Peace Prize that December.

There is one other factor that I must mention, and that is the close collaboration of the British and Irish Governments. Without that, quite frankly, agreement could not have been reached. When I became Taoiseach in June 1997, I knew that my core priority was to find common cause with my also newly-elected British counterpart, Tony Blair. My observation of the evolution of the Northern Troubles from 1969 onwards was that it was only by the two governments working hand in glove that progress could be made on Northern Ireland. Luckily for me, I found in Tony Blair somebody of precisely the same view. Over the following ten months, we lived that shared view on literally a daily basis. In recording that, I also pay tribute to the tremendous support we got from our ministerial colleagues and the very fine officials on both sides, who worked might and main to deliver on the outcome, which was never guaranteed but which we all knew was worth straining every fibre for our being for.

And so, the settlement was hard won. As John Hume remarked, in his Nobel lecture, "There will be no victory for either side." The compromises on decommissioning, the release of paramilitary prisoners, and on changes to the Constitution were difficult. In some cases, we were asking people whose families had suffered personally in the conflict to accept the release of the person responsible for the murder of their brother, sister, father, or mother. The committee has heard from others of the huge challenges and flux of the closing weeks and days of the negotiations, particularly after George Mitchell announced his deadline of 9 April. Everybody was torn in pretty much equal measure between the scale of the risks involved in accepting the compromises required, and at the same time, the prize available if agreement could be secured. Things ebbed and flowed right down to the wire until the deal was finally done, a day late for George’s deadline, but providentially on Good Friday, 10 April 1998. Six weeks or so later, there was another red letter day when on the 22 May, the agreement was ratified by the people of Northern Ireland and those in this State in simultaneous referenda, a profoundly important feature of its terms.

Nothing about securing that agreement was easy. Members do not need me to tell them that nothing about its implementation has been easy either, but let nobody say that it has not made a difference, and a huge one at that. Today, almost 25 years later, we can look back on a generation of peace, a generation in which the guns have been largely silent and a generation in which a life unimaginable over the previous three decades has been possible for everybody in Northern Ireland. To paraphrase John Lennon, peace has been given a chance, and the results have been remarkable. By the same token, we have also learned that closing the deal, so critical in its own right, in many ways was politically just a beginning. The years since Good Friday 1998, while bringing many dividends, have also been characterised by continuing political turbulence, particularly over the past six years since the fateful decision by the UK to leave the EU, and as the implications of that for Northern Ireland unfolded. I am out of active politics for a long time now, so it is not for me to prescribe this or that strategy from the sidelines to those in office today. I remember how much I used to love when that happened to me in my own day.

I wish everybody involved today very well, the two governments and the parties. I do not envy them the task they have, but I hope, as an old-timer, that I can be allowed a few words of general advice, and I put it no more strongly than that. It seems clear to me that, as we approach the 25th anniversary of the agreement, we use the opportunity to remind ourselves why it was necessary in the first place and the principles that lay at its heart. That means focusing on continuing its work, building and strengthening its institutions, redoubling our efforts on reconciliation and mobilising the support of new generations around its promise. Above all, I suggest we must continue the focus on the agreement’s core value - the respect for, and accommodation of, difference. Shortly before his sad death in January 2020, Seamus Mallon published his fine memoir, entitled Shared Home Place. Those were his words to describe that principle that he and John Hume had been promoting for decades, that the only way forward is in solutions that work for everybody. That was the spirit at the heart of the Good Friday Agreement and it is clear to me that it must be the spirit at the heart of how current difficulties are resolved,whether one is talking about the Northern Ireland protocol, the restoration of the Executive and Assembly, legacy or the range of other challenges facing us. That will require leadership and risk-taking by everybody, and it will involve compromise.

Just like my generation was able to do nearly a quarter century ago, I feel sure that the leaders today will be able to rise to that challenge. I said, at the outset, that the Good Friday Agreement was a living charter. More important, it remains the settled will of the people of Northern Ireland, as expressed in that referendum of 1998. I have full confidence that those two realities mean we can all face the future with confidence, guided by the principles and spirit agreed nearly 25 years ago and that remain our enduring compass points. I thank the Chairman for this opportunity and I look forward to the conversation with the committee.

I thank the former Taoiseach. I remind members that the speaking rotation is as follows: Sinn Féin, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, SDLP, Green Party, Sinn Féin, Labour, Independents and Aontú. There are 15 minutes for each questioning slot. After 14 minutes, I will let speakers know that there is a minute left so that it is fair for everybody. There is no reason we cannot have a second round of questions if the former Taoiseach is happy with that. We will start with Deputy Tully and Mr. Mickey Brady MP.

I thank the former Taoiseach for coming in to the committee to share his insights on the negotiations leading up to the Good Friday Agreement. He paid tribute to the political parties in the North that took risks to ensure that an agreement was reached, and to the international parties who played a huge role as well. There is one point that the former Taoiseach mentioned that I want to focus on, which is the close co-operation between the British and Irish Governments. I suppose it is no secret that the current relationship between the two governments is far from ideal and is probably at its lowest ebb in a quite a number of years. Does the former Taoiseach think that the Tory Government is undermining the Good Friday Agreement, particularly the human rights aspects of it? It has resisted bringing in human rights legislation and it has also subverted aspects of the agreement concerning victims of the conflict. It has refused victims access to inquests in court and has given amnesty to members of its own armed forces. I ask the former Taoiseach to dwell on the importance of a good relationship between the two governments as co-guarantors of the Agreement, and to comment on whether he thinks the Tory Government is undermining the agreement with its legacy legislation.

Mr. Bertie Ahern

I do not think it is intentionally undermining the agreement, but it has clearly not been helpful during the course of this calendar year.

Introducing the legislation was something that proved unhelpful and greatly annoyed the Irish Government, and rightly so. The fact of the matter is that, since last October, the EU has been trying its utmost to propose comprehensive positions - they may not have been solutions, but at least they were positions - to the UK Government. That was a year ago. There were a few brief talks in February, but they did not come to anything. It has only been recently that we have seen some progress with the new ministers involved. I was going to say the "British Prime Minister", but I do not know who the British Prime Minister is. It changed on the way in. Whoever the British Prime Minister is, I hope that he or she will take a proactive position. What the British Prime Minister of yesterday said was not helpful. Whoever is there tomorrow might say something different. Yesterday, the British Prime Minister said that, even if there were negotiations, what was in the legislation would be the bottom line. I never tried to negotiate where I had declared what the bottom line was before going into the negotiations. That is clearly not going to solve anything.

That said, at least the British Government at official level, and some of the outgoing politicians before Mr. Steve Baker and Mr. Chris Heaton-Harris came to office, put together a comprehensive paper on what the EU was offering, what their position was, where the compromises might lie and where they would not compromise at all. At least that work has been done. The negotiations that started last week with Mr. James Cleverly and his people should be going somewhere. Let us be honest, though, the British Government's focus on anything over the past ten days has probably been poor. I hope to see developments in the coming weeks, but all that we have seen over the past week is the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland saying that he would call an election next week.

That is right.

Mr. Bertie Ahern

That is the only statement we have heard, regardless of whether it will happen.

It would be a pity. The EU did a good job last October. It was a good opening position, one on which we could have seen serious negotiation. I was at a meeting in Brussels approximately a month ago that was organised by Mr. Barry Andrews, MEP, and attended by all of the parties in the North. They spent a full day and the night before with Mr. Maroš Šefčovič discussing the issues. The EU had set out in good detail what it thought were fair issues. It had dealt with the issue of medicines - that was out of the protocol altogether - and it was prepared to make changes within the protocol. It had examined the trusted traders initiative whereby there could be a red box to try to deal with the internal trade position, which seemed to be the DUP's difficulty.

There are many positives, but to answer the Deputy's question directly, it takes two to tango. If the British Government does not enter into discussions, it is difficult to see an outcome. I hope the next British Prime Minister and the relevant officials can get down to the renegotiations. Realistically, though, it is difficult to see much happening before Friday week. We will have to see where that brings us.

What about the legacy legislation the British Government is discussing introducing?

Mr. Bertie Ahern

I am on the wings of this, but I cannot see that legislation being passed. It does nothing to help anyone. It is legislation that everyone is against.

Mr. Bertie Ahern

Imagine our Oireachtas trying to introduce legislation that every political party was against. It sounds extraordinary and I never saw it happen. If legislation that every political party is against is foisted on Northern Ireland, it will be unhelpful.

I have stated my position publicly many times. Deputy Flanagan was the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade during the Stormont House Agreement, which was an agreement between the parties, and I was a great supporter of it. It took great effort to achieve that agreement. As with much in recent years, though, everyone agrees until one group says "No, we are not having it" because the group has changed its mind afterwards. We have seen that from Boris Johnson, Secretaries of State and foreign ministers. Everyone agrees and then nothing happens. From the legacy point of view, I am still a supporter of the agreement that Deputy Flanagan achieved at the time.

Mr. Mickey Brady

I thank Mr. Ahern for his presentation and for the important part he played in bringing about the agreement. An important aspect of the Good Friday Agreement was the protection for unionists in the time ahead, where people had the choice to be Irish, British or both. That has played its part as time has passed.

Does Mr. Ahern believe that the Irish Government needs to set up a citizens' assembly now? There seems to be a rallying cry for that at the moment. It would play an important part in leading us towards the future.

Does Mr. Ahern agree that planning for a referendum on Ireland's future would involve inclusive and comprehensive planning for the time ahead? It is not something into which we can rush. It is something that needs to be dealt with in a very mature way. Consider the Brexit result in Britain. The majority of people may not have known what they were voting for and the outcome was based on racism, xenophobia, homophobia and whatever other phobia one might want to name. People were not aware of what they were voting for. The surprise on Boris Johnson's face when the result was announced probably said it all. I believe he was ambivalent on the question, but he was certainly surprised at the result of the vote. If we are going to have a referendum, people will have to understand what they will be voting for. The future of Ireland is important to every generation. What are Mr. Ahern's views in this regard?

Mr. Bertie Ahern

I have been saying for a number of years - probably before many people - that I thought that looking for an early border poll was the wrong thing to do. Everyone has now moved away from that. I agree with Mr. Brady that the work has to be done. It has now commenced. There is some good work being done academically. I know of at least three universities that are working their way through the question of how to bring a new Ireland together and how we would deal with the legislation. That is good. Much of the work is focusing on administration as well as on legislation relating to security and so on. Nothing is being done on the economic side yet, but I have learned this week that such work is to commence at one of the universities in the new year. There will be North-South collaboration on that. It is currently trying to pull together the resources to do that work. This is good and important. It is good that such work is being done academically because the universities have no axe to grind. They are doing the work professionally and in an academic way, and it will be used by everyone.

As the Scottish referendum proved, any of the SNP people you might talk to will readily admit privately if not publicly - I believe they admit it publicly as well, though - that, while the SNP got a great deal right, it did not address finances. At that point, the SNP was up against Gordon Brown and the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Alistair Darling.

It was buried on that issue and probably lost the referendum because of it. The financing end is not the only issue. There are whole lot of questions, such as how we would bring An Garda Síochána and the PSNI together, and how we would bring together the courts, local authorities, and the National Health Service and the HSE. These are all big questions but they are doable with work, preparation and planning. Otherwise, and not everyone agrees with this but I was asked for my view, if we hold a referendum while saying we do not know how we will deal with the National Health Service between the North and the South or how we will bring An Garda or the courts together, I will tell you now what the result would be and I will not charge anything for the advice; it will not have a hope in hell of passing. There are some people who think that it would. I do not because we would have a debate, we would be here debating it and people would see after a few days that it is illogical to do that.

I readily admit that the citizens' assembly has probably sorted out some thorny issues in this country in the past decade. Would I like to see a citizens' assembly of 100 people? I was before the citizens' assembly recently talking about an elected mayor for Dublin. I enjoyed the morning with those present and we had lovely tea and all that. I do not think we solved much but we will see what happens. I am not too sure about putting the national question we have been talking about for 100 years into the hands of 100 people. If I was one of the 100 I might have a different view, but I am not sure I want to hand that over. It should be debated within political parties and civil society, and at the annual conferences of all the organisations, but I am not too sure about handing that over to just 100 people and a chairman. I am not saying, "No way". Maybe when all the work is done, then we could hand it over to somebody. Personally, I would like to see Dáil Éireann having a role in that. I would like to think that the people we go to the trouble of electing will have a big say.

Mr. Mickey Brady

Does Mr. Ahern think the current Irish Government is doing enough to bring about-----

If Mr. Ahern agrees, we will extend this slot for another five minutes to keep the debate right. We will do 20 minutes per session. Is that okay?

Mr. Bertie Ahern

Yes.

Mr. Mickey Brady

The question is whether Mr. Ahern thinks the current Irish Government is doing enough. The other point is, when we talk about a citizens' assembly in those terms, it would have to be an integral part of the process. I am not suggesting for a moment that 100 people make very major and important decisions but we need to look at the context. We live in a country of approximately 6.5 million people with two of everything, none of which work particularly well. It would be relatively straightforward to sit down to talk about how these things may be brought about. When I was canvassing during the last northern election, a couple of people asked me about their pensions but transitional arrangements will be made for all that. The pension suppliers will presumably sort all that out. That is important.

I will finish on this question. I have come across this issue because I deal with the unionist population every day in my constituency office. It is my view that civic unionism is way ahead of political unionism. Does Mr. Ahern agree with that?

Mr. Bertie Ahern

As Mr. Brady knows, I am very involved with the George Mitchell institute in Queen's University Belfast and spend a lot of time there. I am up and down there like a yo-yo. I hear the views of all sectors. I definitely feel that on the ground people are frustrated, want solutions and want to move forward. They see the benefits of the Good Friday Agreement and the protocol. They readily admit there might be issues with the protocol that need to be addressed. Nobody wants people having to do eight pages of checks. We have to be realistic. These issues can be resolved. Business, trade unions and civic society in the North are certainly anxious. From what I detect, nobody particularly wants an election, certainly not in Christmas week, unless they are all mad and I do not think they are. It would not solve a lot either, for that matter. It is a case of Tweedledum and Tweedledee. We might get a few changes here and there but will it fundamentally change where we are? I do not think so. Mr. Brady is correct. People in society generally want to see progress and compromise.

I will go back to the point I made in my opening remarks. I am the first to say that despite the success of the Good Friday Agreement and the peace and progress it has brought, it has not reached its full potential. We all know that but of all the things that were achieved, the agreement was achieved because people who were of different views and who did not particularly like each other, for understandable reasons no matter what side they came from, were prepared to compromise and prepared to find the middle ground on the basis of goodwill. That is still necessary. The only way things will be resolved, as people in this House know, is by people talking, discussing, deliberating and trying to find solutions. If people do not sit down to talk, we will not find solutions. That is my worry. The success of what we collectively did 25 years ago, and for the ten years after that in dealing with these issues, was the fact that we worked together. It did not mean we all loved each other and we all agreed and so on, but people genuinely tried very hard. People stretched themselves, especially our northern colleagues, and worked extremely hard to carry people with them to find ways of doing that. We still need that, which is the big challenge as we go into the years ahead.

We will now move to Fianna Fáil's time. Senator Blaney has 20 minutes.

Mr. Ahern is most welcome. We are delighted to have him before us as part of the work the committee is doing. Senator Currie and I were adamant that we get stuck into this piece of work during our programme year. From my perspective, I have a strong sense that if we do not learn the lessons of the past, particularly around the Good Friday Agreement and the working up towards that agreement, and get an understanding of how hard that was to achieve and learn from the complexities involved, it will be very hard to get agreements in the future. This is a very interesting piece of work that will result in us putting together a great report. Some of Mr. Ahern's former colleagues who were involved across the different parties have given some great contributions.

I am coming from that perspective of going back 25 years ago and all the effort Mr. Ahern put into Northern Ireland and building relations. I ask him to give us a picture first and foremost of why he saw the need to do this. What was his drive? Did he believe it was just a moment in time where he could see an opportunity to make something happen? What was the thinking? I sat in a church with Mr. Ahern a couple of months ago at David Trimble's funeral. I will never forget that day because during his eulogy the clergyman talked about one politician, David Trimble, who was held in high esteem by Mr. Ahern. That gave me a certain insight into Mr. Ahern and the relationships he built over the years. It is very important for us as a committee to learn why it is so important to build those relationships. In Mr. Ahern's view, why did he put so much time into building relationships with individuals like David Trimble and other politicians, not just on the unionist side but on the nationalist side as well? Why did he feel the need to invest time in particular relationships? What rewards did it reap for him?

I was in Belfast last Wednesday night at the launch of Tommie Gorman's book, which was launched by Michelle O'Neill and Arlene Foster. Mr. Gorman is an individual like Mr. Ahern who has built relationships. It is unusual to see the high regard in which a journalist is held by politicians on both sides of the divide in the North.

People like Mr. Ahern have so much insight into those relationships. He referred to relationships a lot. Relationships are key because it is by developing them that we can find a way forward and start resolving issues.

Mr. Bertie Ahern

I remember sitting my leaving certificate in 1969 when the Troubles started. I also remember 1968 and the civil rights movement. We watched it all our lives from down here. We discussed it many times in this House. Many things happened. There was always that sense of hopelessness that if we did not get everybody on board, we were never going to get anywhere. I always thought that the Sunningdale Agreement in 1974 and what happened in 1985 were good efforts. I never want to take away from the people involved in both those efforts because they worked very hard to achieve them but there was a fundamental difficulty with them. They did not make a lot of difference in the end because everyone was not involved. They were not inclusive. If you did not have an inclusive position, you were never going to stop the Troubles.

What Tony Blair and I set out to do more than anything else was to try to stop the violence. In 1995 and 1996, when we were working together when in opposition, along with Mo Mowlam and others involved, such as David Andrews, we were trying to find a way to reach out to and work with everybody. That was a long path. The Downing Street Declaration was in 1993 while the ceasefire was announced in 1994. It broke down in 1996. All the time, we were trying to build up relationships and to understand the people. I always thought my job was not to blind them with science or tell them I was right and they were wrong. That was not it. We were trying to see where we could find common ground and make progress. Some people here know that it involved plodding along with all the parties trying to see what the issues were, where compromises could be found, what could be achieved and who could carry people with them. Many of these matters were very difficult. David Trimble and I ended up getting on and being great friends. I can tell the committee that the shouting matches during the process were unbelievable. I started from a very different position to that held by Mr. Trimble but we worked our way along. Much of the time, it involved talking to my Sinn Féin colleagues, bringing those arguments back, talking to loyalists, bringing those arguments back and trying to see where we could make progress. The reality was that David Trimble made significant changes. Martin McGuinness, as chief negotiator at the time, made significant changes. It was give and take. The negotiations were tough. The only way you could do it was to talk and talk.

This is what I worry about now. If a document was drawn up last October and there has been no meeting since then, what happens? We used to pass each other out having meetings but it was necessary to do that. It was necessary in order to analyse and comprehend where we could go and talk to people actively involved in the Troubles and people with different points of view. You could talk to the SDLP, which was against violence of every shape. Seamus Mallon would always give us lectures. He would give out to me for talking so much to the others and then we would talk to him. That was the name of the game. You had to try to bring people into an inclusive process, which was what we succeeded in doing. In my view, if the two governments and the parties did not continue this, a solution that left somebody out would not have worked in 1998 and it will not work in 2022. This is the difficulty.

I am often asked, particularly on UK programmes, whether I am saying we should bypass somebody and, if they are difficult, go ahead. You feel like doing this sometimes but it is not the solution. This tends to be frustrating and difficult. The reality at the moment is that the US President is on side, the British Government is kind of on side, the EU is on side, the Irish Government is onside and most of the parties are on side but one group is not but that is the challenge. The challenge is to try to convince it and see if you can get there. It can only happen if there is intensive dialogue. That is the issue. It will not happen if there is no intensive dialogue. The reason I spent such time is because that was the only way. There was no alternative. We would have failed in 1998. It was not Tony Blair and me; it was Tony Blair and me and everybody else. We were a group. The group represented the key people and backroom people of all the parties who slaved away. We did lose people in 1998. We lost the DUP. The DUP was out the door shouting at us from over the wall and we had to wait a good few years before we got it in but it was worth it.

This nation owes Mr. Ahern a debt of gratitude for his dedication and the work he put into the Good Friday Agreement and all the years working up to it. It has served this nation very well and has laid the foundations for us all to move on from here. His dedication - even the final week leaving his mother's graveside and heading back to Northern Ireland - was a sign of his commitment to the peace process for which we are entirely grateful.

Mr. Bertie Ahern

I thank the Senator. It was a collective effort. Any one of us was no use without the team and it was a great team. I am lucky enough to have ended up being good friends with nearly everybody on that team from every side. As Minister for Labour, I learned that if one side won and the other side, you are in trouble. The name of the game is a scoreless draw.

Mr. Ahern is very welcome. As somebody from County Louth, I thank him for his sacrifices. As someone who was 16 when the Good Friday Agreement was signed, I did not think it was possible but we had that day and that celebration. We made tough sacrifices. It was not easy. There were conversations around people's kitchen tables about changing Articles 2 and 3. It was not a simple "Yes" vote but people rowed in because it was the only game in town. It was the only path to the future. On a very personal level, my granny was in a hospital bed next to Mr. Ahern's mother. They had long conversations about the peace process before the Good Friday Agreement was signed. She was so proud of him and granny as a Fianna Fáiler and a republican would ring home every day and tell us about the conversations about Bertie and Bertie's mammy. She was so proud of him and the work he did for Ireland.

Mr. Bertie Ahern

She was a bit sceptical too.

All of us were sceptical because we did not think it was possible.

The sceptics were there. We were all there. Mr. Ahern mentioned in his opening statement the remobilisation of the youth and trying to get them back on board. In Ireland, we never like to take up awkward conversations and always let things go. However, I think we have now let things go a little too far. We need to ensure our youth remobilise behind the Good Friday Agreement in the same way that I, as a 16-year-old girl, was behind the Good Friday Agreement. Over 90% of those in the Republic of Ireland who voted were in favour of the agreement. What is Mr. Ahern's opinion on that?

I was glad to hear Mr. Ahern mention the ongoing research because it is the only game in town in respect of how we bring the two states together to ensure we have the necessary police force, courts, education and health systems. Much work has been done. Mr. Ahern was right in what he said about the shared island unit. The Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI; the National Economic and Social Council, NESC; and many other organisations and universities are being funded through the shared island unit by the State to do research. I am a big fan of that.

One problem that Mr. Ahern also mentioned in his speech is that we have failed to implement all aspects of the Good Friday Agreement. That is one of the sad points, 25 years later. I have a problem with people who other the North. People say the North needs to do this and that. They say that the Governments in Dublin and Westminster need to come in and do something. There is a great and growing independence of thought. There are still shortfalls in Northern Ireland. There is not an integrated education system or integrated communities. How can we support that from Dublin, for want of a better description, but not in such a way as to other Northern Ireland? We need Northern Ireland to come together in the conversation, for example through a citizens' assembly in Northern Ireland. We cannot dictate; we can only support. The 100-person citizens' assembly that Mr. Ahern mentioned earlier might say it would love reunification of the island - that all being well and good, it would be lovely. All of those on my side of the House would love that reunification. However, that is no good unless everyone in the North comes together. I would like to hear Mr. Ahern's thoughts on that point.

There are only approximately four minutes left in the Senator's time slot. We will have a second round of questions.

Go raibh maith agat.

I will be here all day. The Senator asked very good questions and I am sorry for interrupting.

Mr. Bertie Ahern

We all agree that the preliminary work is now being done by several organisations. The Senator mentioned NESC. There is also the work of the shared island unit and there is academic work. The work of all those groups and bodies is good and it all feeds in. Ultimately, it must feed into the centre. As the Senator suggested, the Government has to pull this together because it must form some cohesive programme along the way. That is the first point. It is crucial that Northern universities and bodies are involved in that work. It cannot be otherwise, academically, for fear that a particular view is being taken.

It is a sad reality that some of the things we hoped for did not come to pass. While business and tourism are good in the North, I still think it was a great pity that David Trimble did not agree, despite my best efforts to convince him, to put Invest Northern Ireland and the IDA together. We took a joint approach to tourism and I thought a combined effort would have worked well for business. Mr. Trimble saw the sense of it, in fairness to him. He was a politician but he was also an academic. He saw the sense in the argument but was unable to deliver it. Invest Northern Ireland is doing a review of its work at the moment, which is important. I know IBEC has also been doing a lot of good work. It is important that these bodies are there.

With regard to the analysis, I do not have the figures but I have read them. While the South has experienced difficulties in the past 25 years, including a period of recession, the reality is that if one compares the movement in the economies of the South and the North, the North is way behind. In terms of growth and development, Northern Ireland has done well but I would have hoped 25 years ago that the rising tide would have lifted all boats fairly equally. That did not happen. It is still a challenge. That point applies particularly to some areas, for example in Belfast but also in Derry, where people feel they have not seen the lift they should have seen. The United States remains very important because it can still have influence. We need to do that. We want nationalist, republican, loyalist and unionist communities to be able to see the benefits. That is a challenge that comes with the Government's work with businesses and trying to give them a break.

The Senator asked about the rising generation, which has got used to peace. They do not see it as a bonus because they were not around when there was trouble although they know about it. They have to see other benefits. They have to see benefits in their communities, including infrastructural benefits. They have to see Northern Ireland's place within the European Union, hopefully, as well as in the union or out of the union. That is why the protocol was so important. I say constantly at Queen's University that the reality for now is that Northern Ireland has the best of all worlds. It is, for all intents and purposes, in the European Union and the customs union. It has internal trade, which is so important to some politicians in the North. They refer to the UK internal market, so let us agree to that. Northern Ireland also has trade with the South. Let us also agree that there are still some difficulties that have to be ironed out with the protocol in terms of the form filling and all of this. The point that is always missed is that business nowadays is not a matter of trucks driving up the road with bananas or oranges in the back of them. Big business nowadays is technologically advanced. It is the movement of technology. All modern technology is making finance, insurance and trade operate. That does not involve a boat moving across the sea. As I continue to say, some people think there is a guy on a boat somewhere in the Irish Sea who has a flag and stops boats to check them. That is not what is going on. Trade is trade, and the opportunities are immense. For the rising generation, we must show that reunification would mean good jobs and education, and a good future. We must show that we can harmonise things as best we can on this island. We must show we will all look out for each other and develop ourselves. As was said earlier, there are now 7 million people on the island. We are no longer small. It is a big and significant country now. We have caught up with many of our European partners in the size of our wealth and opportunities. For the period ahead with the protocol, whether its terms are amended or not, the opportunities are immense. I have done my best in meeting loyalist and unionist groups to point out that fact. One gets so far before they stop and say it is a different matter. There are, however, enormous opportunities.

We have to convince the rising generation that this is good; that what we did 25 years ago, updated to now, is good.

There is another point that is very important. You often hear people misguidedly saying the Good Friday Agreement needs to change or that we did not think of this or that. There is a review clause in the agreement that if at any time the parties want to sit down and make amendments, they can do so. We did that with the St. Andrews Agreement 16 years ago. It has not been done since. People are mistaken to say this was forgotten about and we cannot do anything about that. Sometimes I even hear some journalists saying the Good Friday Agreement is finished and does not apply. If somebody has good ideas about changing it, that is all they have to do. They can review it and amend it and there is no big deal about that. That is what we have to do for the rising generation. Many people who are graduating this year with masters degrees would not have been born the year we negotiated the agreement. They are the ones who are now coming into the workforce as highly qualified people. There are opportunities to build on it, if we could get the political parties to get the Executive and the institutions up and running. I was delighted during the pandemic to see Northern Ireland did well. The Executive did well. It worked well. Its members dealt with the challenges. They had big challenges but they handled it well. There were a few spats but there were millions of spats down here. I thought the Executive did very well.

Okay. I am going to bring in Deputy Carroll MacNeill. I am conscious of the importance of Mr. Ahern's replies and the points he is making about people working together. Deputy Carroll MacNeill will be followed by Senator Currie, and Senator McGahon may wish to contribute as well.

I thank Mr. Ahern for coming in. We are very pleased to have him in and I thank him for the work he did.

A normal amount of spats is the normal type of politics Mr. Ahern and others were aiming to achieve in Northern Ireland in the 1990s, instead of what was there. He has said clearly the primary goal for him and for the British Government was stopping the violence in the first instance and building a set of structures that would enable reconciliation in particular. We get this sense from the conversations we have had over the last while that stopping the violence was a primary goal, as was reaching an agreement and that you must stop somewhere, as in you must stop talking and reach agreement at some point. Recognising that time pressure, was there anything else Mr. Ahern feels could have been brought in or is there anything he regrets about that stop point?

Linked to that is this question of reconciliation. Mr. Ahern has this morning described people straining every fibre of their being to try to reach a resolution with people they did not even want to be in the same room with. One of the fears we have, in particular the way the politics is constructed, is that it is directly contrary to reconciliation. It deliberately pulls people to the poles as opposed to the centre. The opportunities, as Senator McGreehan was talking about, for integrated education as the norm and for cultural reconciliation as integration becomes more and more normalised over a period of 25 years, do not seem to have happened in the way people hoped or expected they might. What is Mr. Ahern's view of how reconciliation has gone over that period? Does he have a view on how the politics is constructed and how the institutions are constructed and whether that enables or hinders reconciliation in any way?

Mr. Bertie Ahern

We were making good progress and in fairness the parties were making good progress on the institutional changes. For the record, I feel the institutions should be worked very actively. I do not want to say more actively or criticise what is happening but we went through a long period where the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference did not meet at all. There were maybe one or two meetings. The whole idea was the British Prime Minister was to turn up to those and I do not think Boris Johnson ever went to the one or two that were held. He did not attend at all and the idea was the British Prime Minister would be there. The British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference is vitally important. Sometimes I hear people saying we need a new model so we can meet, as the British are no longer in Europe. We do not need a new model; all we need to do is implement the model we have, which is the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference. It should be meeting regularly. It does not have to meet at Prime Minister-Taoiseach level. It could be four meetings a year: one quarter with industry people, one quarter with education and so on.

Our civil servants are not meeting and at one time they tended to meet every week. They used to meet at various committees in Europe. As the Cathaoirleach knows, there was huge close contact between our public servants and it is gone. It is the same with North-South bodies. I finally agreed with David Trimble what the North-South bodies were going to be. We always had a view they would be incremental and we did not have to write down exactly where we were going to have co-operation. The co-operation on cancer services works very well. I do not think that was ever written down, so there are lots of things you can do that you do not have to write down. It should be more active and if we get the institutions up, we need to be looking at other areas and new areas. As for the idea that 25 years ago we said these were the areas and 25 years later we are still saying these are the areas, I am sure the Deputy could think of 20 areas where we should be having North-South co-operation. It is vital to do.

The Deputy is right about where I felt things would have developed. I honestly thought we would have far greater integration of various organisations working closely together and making far more progress together. There are some people. Our farmers are great at North-South work. The only time the Rev. Ian Paisley used to ring me when I was Taoiseach was when it was something to do with agriculture. Then he would abuse me about something else. Anyway, our farmers have an incredible way of working together and that should be across many other areas.

On education, integrated education is probably working. I met a former principal of a Presbyterian school in Belfast and he told they were not changing their charter or any of their long-held views and rules but then he went on to tell me a third of their pupils were Catholic, so they are coming into the schools. They are not going to say it is an integrated education but they are now coming into the schools. That is a slow process but you have to keep on driving. I thought things like that would work far better.

The area I am most disappointed by is around the employment and training bodies. It is the reason I wanted Invest Northern Ireland and IDA Ireland to work together. I did the early negotiations with Intel and a lot of the companies way back. On all the trips and trade missions I went to, and I am sure it was the same for the Cathaoirleach or anyone else, none of the companies ever asked were Belfast and Dublin separate or were Derry and Buncrana separate. They saw us as a unit. We would never go in, even in the worst, early days, and say we are not going to help that Northern Ireland crowd. That never happened. I never saw an official or Minister doing that. I had hoped we would have seen far more investment into poorer areas and into ones that did not feel they had benefited. That is something we still need to do. I am aware there are some initiatives now, there is some progress and efforts are being made but you must get the person on Sandy Row and on the Falls Road to see this is really good for me, that this is progress for me and that I have a better chance of a job.

Unfortunately, people in loyalist areas, as distinct from nationalist areas, think that they did not get the benefits from it. If that is case, then it is our job to prove to them that there are benefits. Until we do that, people will be linking themselves to paramilitary groups and the wrong kind of society. I have seen it in my own constituency down the years and I have seen how it can change. For example in the International Financial Services Centre today, there are children of people who at one stage came in as cleaners and doormen, and are now working as economists. It can change. The challenge for us is to make people in Northern Ireland see that. That means enabling reconciliation and being positive in the message. It means people of all political persuasions must hold out the hand of friendship to the other side to help them. If you only hand it out to those on your own side, it does not work.

I thank Mr. Ahern for coming today and for his undeniable contribution to peace and progress on this island. As he has said himself, the progress that has been made is remarkable. In my view, all roads lead back to the values of Good Friday Agreement, no matter what the future holds. For us, this project is about really getting under the hood of the Good Friday Agreement 25 year later and looking at the good, the bad and the ugly from where we are at the moment. There is lots of good and lots of bad and there has been lots of ugly too. I have a few questions and I will try to be as quick as I can.

A lot of attention has been focused on what happened after the women's football team's success a few weeks ago. It is an awful pity for them that their success has been overshadowed but in my view, it reflects on where we are 25 years on from the Good Friday Agreement and the lack of progress when it comes to reconciliation or the understanding of it. To me, reconciliation is about empathy for other views, situations, backgrounds and history. Where does Mr. Ahern believe we are in relation to that side of reconciliation? I do not want to focus on what happened with the women's football team. On where we are and people's mindsets around reconciliation, does he think we need to have a conversation about what reconciliation actually means? It strikes me that people have different perceptions of what reconciliation means and that is a problem in itself. Not only are people coming from different viewpoints about what might have happened in the past but now we have new generations with different understandings of reconciliation. Do we need to have a conversation about that?

The former Taoiseach mentioned the St. Andrews Agreement. People point to that agreement as a reason for there being entrenched silos in Stormont. When Mr. Ahern was working on the agreement, did he anticipate that? Would he change the agreement at this moment in time? Through this process, I have come to see that the Good Friday Agreement was never supposed to be about putting all of our eggs into one basket in respect of power sharing but about working the three strands equally, like the three legs of a stool they are. Has it become apparent, since Brexit, that we just did not invest in those strands enough for that stool to stand as firm as possible?

We talk about the relationships with the British Government and their importance but fundamentally, the UK is on a different path to us at the moment. It is on a path that is about deregulation, divergence and disintegration, rather than convergence. How does the former Taoiseach see the relationship developing on that basis?

Finally, if social media had been around at the time of the Good Friday Agreement, would we have had it?

Mr. Bertie Ahern

The last question is easy to answer. I doubt it. It would have been very difficult. I am not sure how members do anything these days with social media. I wish them well.

Going back to the Senator's other questions, the UK is on a different path. The big difficulty was Brexit, albeit not so much the vote itself, which was bad enough. I think it was in her Lancaster House speech when Theresa May said the UK was leaving the Single Market and was against the European Court of Justice. We all knew that. However, in the same speech she stated for the first time, and it had not even been debated, that she was against the customs union and wanted to pull out of it. It is the customs union bit that has created the problem in the North today. I would hope that somewhere along the way, Britain will come back into that because it can be out of the Single Market but in the customs union. They were separate issues. I think Theresa May is a good person and she did a lot to try to be helpful in her proposals but that one was not helpful. Since then, they have been on a track and we have all seen what has gone on in Britain over the last five to six years. The politicians are very slow to admit that this started with Brexit. Some day, some of them will be brave enough to say that it was Brexit that created their difficulties. I do not expect them to change their minds and to join the European Union tomorrow but they could start co-operating and integrating things that are in their interests, which are in our interests as well. I think that is where that could happen.

On the issue of the North-South bodies and the institutions, I agree with the Senator's point. The three strands of the agreement should be worked very actively. I have mentioned the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference already. It is in all our interests to put time and effort into that. It has not moved at anything like the pace that I would have expected. There should be far more action and interaction. I know that is not easy when one side does not want to turn up to meetings. It has been disappointing. Hopefully, we will get the institutions up and running.

On the St. Andrews Agreement, it goes back to the issue that I mentioned in response to the Chairman's question. We can make changes to the agreement at any time. The reasons that we made changes at St. Andrews was because we were trying to get the DUP on board. I remember Martin McGuinness bending over backwards to try to help ensure that the positions of First Minister and deputy First Minister would be on an absolutely equal footing. It is funny to see the DUP now being so interested in trying to convince people that they are different, when the whole argument was to ensure that they were on an equal footing. At one stage, I had a list drawn up which set out all of the tasks of the First Minister and of the deputy First Minister. We tried to see if there was any distinction between the two, other than the title of the office. Perhaps we should not have used those titles. Ms Gildernew will recall that Martin McGuinness even offered using the same title for the two offices but that offer was rejected. As I said to Alliance people recently, if changes are to be made all we need is a review. Proposals can be put forward. I must say that 25 years ago I did think that we would ultimately see government and opposition, which would grow incrementally. I wondered how we would get government and everyone in opposition working together. The Chairman can imagine trying to do that in these Houses. It would be difficult. Now is not the time to do that nowt. We cannot do it now because it would cause more problems than it would solve. Hopefully, we can do it further down the road, if the institutions are working. I emphasise the point, however, and it is important to put on the record, that if people have difficulties with the agreement or see something in its workings, all that can be dealt with in a review. You do not have to change the basis, structure or the fundamentals of the agreement.

I will not speak to them all, but I can think of about five or six things that should be changed, but time will tell. Maybe we should have a fixed-term parliament where one you can only pull out after 15 years or so, and where everyone has to stay working together.

Does Mr. Ahern believe we need to have a national conversation about reconciliation and what it means? It has been that part of the agreement where, in my view, we have not seen enough progress.

Mr. Bertie Ahern

Sometimes when you go to the North, you meet groups who do not get much credit for the huge amount of action that is going on. The women's groups are working very hard to get over issues and to make progress. It has to come from within. People have to feel they want to reconcile. I would like to see more and more. Imagine a position here in these Houses, whereby for some reason or another we were not sitting - other than during a pandemic - and we were a non-functioning Government. The parties would definitely be working themselves to try to make these things happen. It is a pity that all of these years on, and sometimes with people who maybe should know better, they are not prepared to get into those discussions to try to find solutions. We cannot expect to sit around here waiting for Maroš Šefčovič to find solutions, or whoever the next British Prime Minister is to find solutions, or for the Government down here to find solutions. All the parties in the North have to try to do this. This happened in Christmas 2019 and Christmas 2020, when Mr. Julian Smith, the Minister, Deputy Simon Coveney, and the parties got together for intense discussions, and they got the institutions up and running in early 2020. I would like to see that kind of intensity again, but some people do not want to engage at the moment.

I welcome Ms Claire Hanna.

Ms Claire Hanna

I thank Mr. Ahern for his participation and, as others have said, for his years of positive input in this area. It is really useful in this project to have someone who was there for the negotiation and the implementation. I apologise that I have missed parts of the meeting and that I am not there in person. Unfortunately, it is all moving very fast here today. It would be nice to be in a parliament that does not use physical coercion, as has happened in the one I am sitting in today.

I want to pick up on some of the questions I heard from others. There was a point that nobody has really come up with a better solution to the challenges in Northern Ireland than partnership and compromise and the architecture to deal with those. Some of the change and evolution that has happened to the institutions has been for good and for ill, and while the St. Andrews Agreement has not necessarily all been positive, the creation of an opposition is one of several things that can lead us to move to a more constructive politics. How does Mr. Ahern believe it would be best to manage some of that review? We have not had a structured strategic review built in. There are mechanisms within the agreement but there has not been a timetabled way that we collectively look back at what can be improved. Generally, it has happened on the basis of crisis and perhaps has been done as a kind of side deal and over the heads of the people rather than taking a more co-ordinated look, including some of the things that could improve operation and could remove the veto culture. What is Mr. Ahern's view on how we could best approach the reviews that might happen if, for example, we find ourselves unable to form an Executive in another few months?

Did we miss in the early years of the agreement the structures as a way to address legacy of the Troubles and as a way to put in place mechanisms for justice and for support for those people?

This committee is seeking ways to engage constructively in the conversation around constitutional change, and genuinely to curate that, as envisaged in strand three, as a contest of ideas of two legitimate constitutional aspirations rather than potentially as a committee diving towards one outcome and maybe undermining the intent in that. What does Mr. Ahern believe would be a useful way for this committee to progress the conversation about constitutional change in a way that brings in different voices and which does not give the impression we are only interested in that part of the agreement, which is the part that would result in constitutional change?

Mr. Bertie Ahern

On the first question, if I was there today I believe I would get the institutions up and running before I would have the review. If we start the debate on the review we could be here for God knows how many Christmases. It is better to get the institutions up and then try to deal with that issue. As I pointed out, it is 16 years since there was a review. Times change, views change, and circumstances change. I do not believe there is any problem with having review if the institutions are up and running. The review could look across the three strands.

On the third strand, which is the east-west one, there is a change because the United Kingdom is no longer in the European Union and because there is not the attention or the close contact since 1973 there was between the Irish Government and the British Government, and that certainly is something that now must be looked at. It is different now. One thing we never discussed in 1997 and 1998 was the United Kingdom not being in the European Union. We discussed everything else, up every chestnut tree and everywhere about every issue, but we never spoke about that. The context of that dramatically affects strand three. Given there is not the interaction and the contact between the Irish Government and the British Government, clearly that is an area that should be looked at. I spoke earlier about strand two that we never said 25 years ago we were just going to have North-South bodies for these areas and then no change. There are so many other areas that should be looked at.

On legacy, I made the point that I was a big supporter of the Charlie Flanagan initiative with the Stormont House Agreement, and I still am. That is in the document. I supported it then and the parties worked very closely at that time. The parties all agreed with it then, and I believe they agree with it now. That blueprint is there. Somewhere along the way the British Government decided that was not something it was prepared to implement. The parties did work very hard to agree it and to achieve it at the time. I still believe the legacy and justice issue is somewhere close to the Stormont House Agreement, and certainly not bringing in legislation that nobody agrees with, because does not get anywhere.

I should mention, just as an historical fact, that we did look at the South African models in 1998. We looked at the idea of having the truth and reconciliation commission. We looked at that but there were no takers for it in 1998. It is not that we did not think of them. I floated the idea but nobody wanted it at the time. Maybe it was just too early.

My view on constitutional change is that we should not put the cart before the horse. The ongoing work with various groups - the shared island initiative, the NESC and the universities - and the academic work is at least under way now. Perhaps more people will be pulled into those discussions from all sides and from civil society. At the moment it is very much people from the academic world who are getting involved in the discussions, and that is good. Experts from abroad are involved. That is good. I spend a fair bit of my time on UN stuff nowadays. Several hundred constitutional changes have happened around the world. There is a great database as to how those changes happened and how they were brought about and brought in. I spent three or four years working in Papua New Guinea, where a constitutional referendum occurred. I looked at the UN stuff. There is a really good database of information, so we do not have to reinvent the wheel now that the academic institutes are bringing this forward. It is far better they do it because we cannot blame any political party then. It is brought forward and can be debated from there.

Ms Hanna probably missed the point I made earlier about the broader debate and consultation involving everybody and the views of these Houses and the views of Westminster. Let people set out their views, but I am not convinced about citizens' assemblies. I am not saying anything against them but I am not convinced.

Ms Claire Hanna

I thank Mr. Ahern. I appreciate that. I have an eye on the time. There was a lot to agree with there.

I will make just one point before we go into our second round. Some people are joining us online and I will bring them in in the second round. One point that strikes me is that some of us were recently in Belfast talking to community groups. They were not political people. They were in places like Turf Lodge. The people there tell us that the discussions have ended, there is increasing isolation of the two communities, nothing is moving on the ground and that, perhaps because of the attitude of some leading unionists, there is hostility there now. There are all these great ideas and all this wonderful, important and essential research being done but, returning to Mr. Ahern's point about having everybody involved, if we do not get that, we will not get anywhere. That will be the end of it. All our efforts, from my perspective, have to be on what Mr. Ahern spoke about there. It is a matter of getting cross-party and community group involvement. Young people in parts of Belfast cannot and will not associate - they are not allowed to associate, actually - with people on the other side of the peace line because of the atmosphere in some of the communities. That is what is really damaging.

Mr. Bertie Ahern

That is correct. One of the difficulties, and it is a pity, is that some people from the unionist tradition feel that to participate in any kind of discussion-----

Exactly.

Mr. Bertie Ahern

-----on the constitutional issue is to be sucked into an inevitable united Ireland or new Ireland position. It is up to us to try to convince them that that is not the agenda. There is nothing to stop those who believe that the constitutional change should be that everyone in Northern Ireland should stay as they are or should be even closer to the United Kingdom from bringing forward that thesis. If they want to do so and to argue and to debate their point, nobody is stopping them.

That forum at the local level is the issue.

Mr. Bertie Ahern

It is.

You are absolutely right, Mr. Ahern. They will not talk. They say that if they talk to us on an official basis, they participate in what we are talking about. On the point about the progress made in North-South co-operation on health, and certainly on an all-island cancer strategy, having an all-island strategy for education threatens nobody. You spoke about a job creation agency. Can more work be done on that? These are the things that can build this up.

As for our next speakers, I understand that Alliance has sent an apology. We now move back to Sinn Féin and then Independents. I acknowledge that Senator Black was present earlier, but she was not in the House so we could not take her contribution. She was happy with that, though. Deputy Lawless has to leave now. The problem is that while people can attend here in the Houses or from elsewhere outside the Houses, if they are Members and they are outside the Houses they may not speak, which is a bit of a conundrum.

It is over to Sinn Féin now. We will keep the contribution to 20 minutes if that is okay.

Ms Michelle Gildernew

Ms Begley will go first and then Senator Conway-Walsh.

Ms Órfhlaith Begley

I thank Mr. Ahern for all the work he has done over many years. My generation, in particular, has benefited greatly from the Good Friday Agreement and the peace process over those intervening years.

I wish to focus on North-South co-operation. I know this issue was considered at the time and that there have been conversations about northern representation in the Oireachtas. I would like to hear Mr. Ahern's views. In hindsight, does he feel that more consideration should have been given to allowing MPs or MLAs to sit in the Oireachtas or contribute to these Houses?

As a follow-up point, picking up on the constitutional conversation, there is growing momentum and growing support in that regard, and we see that opinion poll after opinion poll shows that support is moving in the direction of a unity referendum and that support is growing for such a referendum. I want to hear Mr. Ahern's views. I read an article in which he stated that the 30th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement may be a possible time for a referendum. Is that still his opinion? Does he still see that date as a possible date for a referendum?

Mr. Bertie Ahern

On North-South co-operation, we have been saying there is a lot of scope for more and more activity. We never got anywhere on the debate about representation in the Oireachtas. We discussed that for many years but there was not great support down here for it. People were prepared to go for committees but were not prepared to see people who were elected to the assembly participate in Leinster House. We tried it for the first few years but there was no great support for it. There were some constitutional difficulties as well but I do not think they were the main reason for the lack of support.

As for the date for a constitutional referendum, my view is that it should be as soon as the work is done and as soon as the questions that need to be answered have been answered. I said this decade and I still think that is a reasonable proposition. When I said that, very little work had commenced. I think that was on the 20th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement, so almost five years ago. We are in a different position now and, thankfully, there is a lot of work ongoing. I do not know if Ms Begley heard me earlier when I said that if there is to be a referendum, we have to be able to say the institutions and the North-South bodies are up and running, we are making good progress and we are all working together. The main issues that would come into a referendum, some of which I mentioned earlier, would have to be answered. My view is that within a few years that work will be done. I never put the question of finance up front but, as it happens, that is the last one on which work is to be undertaken.

It is starting in January. I have always thought the figure the British Government put forward for grant-in-aid in Northern Ireland is not a real figure because you get slices of a whole lot of things into it. When we are able to see a quantified figure done by professionals and academics away from the political system, it will be a far more interesting debate than it is in a vacuum. We are not too far away from that, however. It will probably be a few years.

I thank Mr. Ahern for being here. I also wish to acknowledge his contribution to the Good Friday Agreement and as he recognised, the contribution of everybody involved. It is a good opportunity for us today to look at this. One thing struck me earlier this morning in Glencree, when we were talking to the Portuguese President. He made the point that peace is always a process and this is a process on which we are still working now, albeit that we all want to work in a more focused way. Obviously, the implementation deficit of the Good Friday Agreement and subsequent agreements cause the problems they do. The Good Friday Agreement itself and the joint declaration set out the agreement to establish a charter of rights for the island of Ireland, which has not been done. Could Mr. Ahern speak to how that might be done? What role could he see the Irish Government playing now in doing that?

I want to ask about further and higher education. For the first time, we now have in the Higher Education Authority Act 2022 explicit provision for North-South further and higher education co-operation. We carried out a student mobility report recently because of how important student mobility in further and higher education is for opportunities across the island for embedding the peace process.

If we have time, Mr. Ahern might touch on the opportunity cost of Brexit. How far advanced does he think we could be if it were not for all of the attention, resources and everything else being taken away in trying to deal with Brexit?

Mr. Bertie Ahern

On the charter of rights, one of the things with which we all agreed 25 years ago was on the bill of rights. As the Deputy knows, there are conflicting arguments about why we do not have a bill of rights. It was not contentious at all 25 years ago that we should have a bill of rights. I was a big supporter of that. As for whether that worked into a charter of rights, the whole idea was that if we had a bill of rights, it would take account. It is a pity it was not done because it would have taken account of all of the European law. It would have been helpful now because as the Deputy knows, since Brexit, the British Government has been trying to change some of these things whereas if we had a bill of rights, we could have said we have an agreed bill of rights and it would not be able to do that.

I still think a bill of rights is a good idea because it is far clearer rather than having to check this, that and the other legislation and other EU laws. I am not sure the Deputy is happy that a charter of rights or bill of rights would literally be the same thing but I would say it is not too much different. The Irish Government's position at the time was that it was totally in favour of the bill of rights, as was Tony Blair's Government, but it got lost subsequently.

Why does Mr. Ahern think some people are so threatened by other people having equal rights?

Mr. Bertie Ahern

If we look at the background of this in the EU context, there was a charter of fundamental rights. I cannot remember what year but it was while I sat on the European Council so it was probably the year 2000 or sometime like that. This was the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, which the British Government fought tooth and nail. It was not just the Court of Justice of the European Union. This was nothing to do with Ireland. The idea of a charter of fundamental rights was something the British Government opposed. It had its charter and believed its charter was the way to go. I do not know if we ever ended up with a European one but if we did, I would say it was probably watered down because of the British Government's huge opposition. I recall those debates. The British Government was quite stringent in its opposition to what were fairly basic things on which none of us would have much disagreement.

The bill of rights I spoke about earlier was not as extensive as that. The British Government has an ideological position on these things. As the Deputy knows, they still say on the Court of Justice of the European Union that it is not that they are for or against a court of justice; they just claim that their one is better. I know we will have difficulties with that.

On higher education, one thing that is really good now, and has been for a number of years, is that there has been much collaboration, co-operation and integration of universities. As the Deputy knows, because she deals with this all the time, they fight for resources but they have much collaboration. One good thing was that when we brought EU funding into the university system, that kind of forced them to collaborate and integrate their efforts, which I think is good. It is also very beneficial on an all-island basis. Some of the work they are doing on the Constitution now is being done between the universities North and South, so those are good developments.

Yet we do not see student mobility. In fact, it has decreased or remained the same in the last quarter of a century. That is the missing piece, if you like.

Mr. Bertie Ahern

I do not have figures but as the Deputy knows, one things is that it still is a pity that so many sons and daughters of unionists go abroad and do not see the mobility. That is an area in which we should be trying to encourage them. What happens is that they go abroad and do not come back. Some people might argue the rights and wrongs of that. From my perspective, that is a pity because we are losing good people who could well get jobs here. We end up bringing people in internationally, rather than hiring people who were born and reared on the island of Ireland. There is not great co-operation on that end. We should make it more welcoming in that regard. The last figures I saw were from before the pandemic, from 2018, but the proportion of students from the unionist tradition in Northern Ireland who were going outside the island of Ireland for their education was quite high. That is a loss. That is an area in which we should almost be encouraging them to-----

Mr. Bertie Ahern

The Deputy knows my view on Brexit. The British electorate made a terrible mistake and they are paying for it every day, and so are the rest of us. I do not want to jump on today's difficulties but somewhere along the line, they should see that. I know they will not change their mind but they should at least see the benefit of closer co-operation and working together with the European Union and stop arguing over things with which they really agree.

I have been around long enough to recall the Single Market in 1987. I was Minister for Labour. In those days, there was a Social Affairs Council, on which I used to cover education, welfare and labour. You were acting on behalf of the Ministers for Social Welfare and Education, as well as the Minister for Labour. The whole argument from the Tory British Government was that we needed better integration and we needed the Single Market; all the things it seems to fundamentally think are crazy.

They were sold a pup. Unfortunately, they bought a pup somewhere along the way. I hope I live to see it but I do think their way out of it is to closely associate with, if not rejoin, the customs union. I do not expect to see them change on the Single Market or other issues, but they never put the customs union to the British people, and they did not have a clue. I had better not say that. It was never the debated, so there was no analysis of it. The first we heard of them withdrawing from the customs union was January 2017, not 2016. That is what has caused the problems, in particular the problem for Northern Ireland.

Ms Michelle Gildernew

It is great to see Mr. Ahern. I also want to acknowledge his role in the peace process and the commitment he had to it. We were lucky with the work Albert Reynolds did before Mr. Ahern and the work Tony Blair did. We had an alignment of the right conditions to make the Good Friday Agreement work. Unfortunately, what George Mitchell said at the time was right - that the easy bit was over, and the hard bit starts now. Twenty-five years on, as Mr. Ahern knows, we still do not have full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement.

There are certain positives. I shared a platform on Monday night with Ben Collins, who has written a book, Irish Unity: Time to Prepare, and young Peter Adair, who is at Oxford University. Ben was educated in Dundee and Peter is in Oxford. Both of them left this country for an education and realised their Irishness. They are now part of a growing voice of civic people from within the unionist community who want to engage and have dialogue. Glenn Bradley is one of those people who has just been confirmed for the Ireland's Future event in November. He referred to some of the abuse he is already getting on Twitter. He said: "They truly fear confident, free thinking minds capable of [their] own assessment and debate." There are confident, free-thinking minds on this island - people who come from a unionist tradition who want to be part of the planning. They want to be as much part of the birth of a new nation as we do. Unfortunately, political unionism is holding them back in many senses. We have some brilliant people coming forward and engaging in those debates.

Ms Begley asked a question about northern representation. Sometimes the hardest conversations we have are down here with people from other political parties who have nearly as big a mindset against unification as what we deal with in the North. The more work that we do down here, the more we get to know one another.

Mr. Ahern spoke a great deal today about dialogue. More dialogue would be very useful in this building among us all, and in bringing people in from the unionist tradition. I was very disappointed that Ian Marshall is no longer here as he did great work in the Seanad and I would love to have seen more of that. We need to find a way to open up those lines of communication and keep the dialogue going in order that we can move forward. If people want to make the case for the status quo, I would appreciate and look forward to that debate too. The problem is that once people start writing their list of pros and cons, that list is very one-sided. It is hard to argue the merits when we see what is happening in London today. By way of a wee bit of information, the bookies have reduced the odds on Boris Johnson coming back into No. 10. It is not getting any better. When we look at what is happening and the turbulence we have had in Britain in recent days, it is very hard to make a strong case against unity. Those are my thoughts. If Mr. Ahern would like to comment on any of the, I would appreciate it.

Mr. Bertie Ahern

If Boris is coming back, I think he will definitely feel he has followed his great belief in Churchill. In terms of dialogue, co-operation and trying to work, I do not know what it is like in the Houses nowadays - I can only watch a certain amount of it on TV - but Northern Ireland discussions and debates and Question Time used to take up nearly all the time at one time. I know there are a lot of competing demands nowadays for time. The real dialogue can come from the Border counties in particular because they are dealing with the same issues relating to business, agriculture and trade. There is no difference. The more of that that happens the better.

In fairness, I think many of the young people coming up are open to debate and dialogue, but it is how the case is put to them that will be the challenge for the period ahead. There is so much information nowadays. Social media plays its part. It fills so much. It was easier to focus the debate into certain areas but now it is harder to do it. I am confident. Ms Gildernew is right. There are a lot of people involved. From my time in Queen's University, I know there are very good debates and dialogue about where people are going. The only thing I would say is that we just need to be careful and not to over-scare people because they need to be pulled into the debate. That is the big challenge. I do not want to mention any names, but I try my best with politicians in the North and say to them that they should participate in the debate. It is a hard sell to them. They really feel that if they participate in the debate, they are being sucked in to something they cannot get out of, which is not the case. We have to say to them that what we are trying to do is just have a debate about the future. They should not feel the future is being orchestrated just one way. There has to be balance in the debates because if there is not, they see it as being all one way. I know people were trying to do that in the debate in the conference centre a few weeks ago but it is very important that these things are seen to be even-handed, and that people are given their right of audience and if they go along, they are treated with respect and dignity and everyone gets a chance. If we get into the business of shouting people down, it just looks all wrong. I know how that fits into the mindset of unionists and loyalists. When we do have debates down here, we have to be careful how they are handled.

As the Cathaoirleach and other speakers have said, Mr. Ahern is very welcome. It is great to listen to him, as one of the principal architects of the Good Friday Agreement, and to listen to the great preparatory work that was done leading up to the negotiations. He was very generous in his compliments to other people who participated and who played a very active and positive role in the negotiations. Sadly, three of the main players are gone to their eternal reward - John Hume, Seamus Mallon and David Trimble. On a day like this, I am very glad that Mr. Ahern paid particular tribute to their work.

Having been in the parliamentary party with Mr. Ahern during that period, we were broadly aware of what was going on but obviously not in any detail. I mentioned previously at the committee that Mr. Ahern prepared our own party for changes because, as my colleague Senator McGreehan said, we were very attached to Articles 2 and 3 of Bunreacht na hÉireann. He did the preparatory work. He met a large number of Fianna Fáil Deputies and Senators in Ballyconnell in the early hours one morning prior to the conclusion of the negotiations. He outlined for us what had to be done and what we would achieve by being willing to embrace change from the point of view of the constitutional provisions at that time. As the Cathaoirleach said, it was painstaking work.

Having been privileged to attend an event in Belfast on the 20th anniversary of the Good Friday Agreement in which President Clinton, Tony Blair, Mr. Ahern, George Mitchell and the other political party leaders in Northern Ireland participated, there was a message of respect for each other's tradition. One message that I got that night as well is that there was a generosity, in particular between the British and Irish Governments, and an understanding of the other side's difficulties. I recall that mention was made of the evening of the removal of Mr. Ahern's mother, when Mr. Blair rang him subsequently and said that he could not honour some commitment he had given Mr. Ahern to bring the broader unionist family with him, and Mr. Ahern had gone and got the broader nationalist community to buy in to some part of the negotiations.

It was explained that night by Tony Blair and Mr. Ahern that they were both understanding of the difficulties of the other. The message I got that night was that in negotiation one has to be not only respectful but also generous to the other point of view, without losing one's core principles in any way.

Mention was made of the British-Irish relationships. Sadly, they have been at a low ebb in recent times, particularly due to the unilateral actions Mr. Ahern referred to, including with regard to the Stormont House Agreement, the protocol legislation and the appalling legacy legislation. Tinpot regimes in South America would not come up with such desperate legislative measures or proposals. It is shocking that any parliamentary democracy would embrace such proposals. Every party, every representative civic organisation group and the groups that have worked with victims in Northern Ireland, such as the WAVE Trauma Centre and other advocacy groups, are strongly opposed to those measures. That shows how out of touch the British Government was in bringing them forward.

We are reaching the 50th anniversary of some of the desperate atrocities that were inflicted on innocent people, both North and South. When speaking to some of the families who have never seen justice achieved in relation to the murder of a brother, sister, daughter or son, I often think that the grief intensifies as we go on and people realise their family members are gone to their graves and they have not got to the truth about the murder of one of their own. Mr. Ahern will recall the Dublin and Monaghan bombings and he is more familiar with them than I am. The 50th anniversary of the Belturbet bombing of 1972, a desperate atrocity, is coming up on 28 December. Thankfully, An Garda Síochána announced a new investigation into that case yesterday with some new lines of inquiry. Thankfully that is happening. Those families have always acted with grace and dignity in campaigning not for vengeance or for people to be locked up and put in cells but to at least get the truth on the desperate atrocity inflicted on their family members. On legacy, I am glad Mr. Ahern so strongly reiterated his belief in the Stormont House Agreement. That was the blueprint to achieve progress in difficult areas. Nobody will underestimate the difficulty in achieving progress on legacy issues but that was a good blueprint to which the political parties in Northern Ireland and the two Governments agreed.

On the business community, those of us who represent Border counties are familiar with trade between the North and the South. Thankfully, we have a huge all-Ireland economy on this island today, one that has grown without any flag-waving and without people being attached to their political ideologies. Businesses with the right environments have gone out and developed. Enterprises that were sited in this State have parts of their business in Northern Ireland and similarly Northern Ireland business have enterprises here. That has been wonderful from the point of view of increasing trade, generating revenue and, importantly, creating employment in Border regions where it is not easy to attract inward investment and people are dependent on indigenous industry. The business community is concerned about the ongoing issues with Brexit. It seems some people in the agricultural community do not to want to speak up on the political issues that are clouding the protocol issue. That is a concern.

What has been Mr. Ahern's interaction with different civic groups in Northern Ireland? What message is he getting from the business community on the protocol and on ironing out the difficulties? In fairness to every member of the Government here, including the Taoiseach, and the European Union, they have repeatedly stated that there are some issues that can be ironed out. The proposals the Commission published in October 2021 would reduce the necessity for inspections by more than 70%. That is a message that needs to be communicated loud and clear. I am often disappointed with how silent business is on these particular issues in Northern Ireland.

I have read transcripts of Mr. Ahern's contributions at committees in Westminster, particularly the committees of the House of Lords, and he has always got a warm welcome there. There is a good understanding, particularly among former secretaries of state or people who served as ministers in the Northern Ireland Office, such as Paul Murphy, Peter Hain and others, on the craziness of Brexit and how it will adversely impact on this island and their own country. We often want to pay tribute to the British Members of Parliament and Members of the House of Lords who have consistently been good allies of our country. During the previous Dáil, we had significant interaction between committees at Westminster and committees of this House. I attended many of those meetings with different committees in Westminster, be it Hilary Benn's Committee on the Future Relationship with the European Union or the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, which was chaired by Tom Tugendhat at the time. When they were making presentations here and when we were engaged in meetings with them, the British members were split 50:50. Some 50% of the membership would have been anti-Brexit and 50% would have been pro-Brexit. There is a sizeable community in Westminster politics who we should regard as friends of our country. Some of them have stood out over the years as being active in supporting different Irish issues.

People often say the Irish Government needs to do more on Irish-British relationships. More can always be done but we should never underestimate what is done through our diplomatic corps. Everyone in this room will have had an opportunity to engage with Adrian O'Neill and his colleagues when he was ambassador in London. They are always intensively putting the Irish case forward, which is a great credit to them. When former senior civil servants from the Department of Foreign Affairs made presentations to this committee they were laudatory of the political leadership of Mr. Ahern and Tony Blair and of the role of US President Clinton and George Mitchell. We also need to take into account the ongoing daily work at diplomatic level with people in Westminster. That does not take away from the current difficulties or the need to make progress.

I sincerely thank Mr. Ahern for his fantastic contribution to achieving the Good Friday Agreement and his obvious work in recent years on Brexit. He has met different groups, attended public meetings and has been accessible to groups form all political traditions, which is much valued. I recently read about the meeting Barry Andrews MEP convened in Brussels in which Mr. Ahern, along with MLAs from all political parties in Northern Ireland, participated. That type of dialogue is very important. It is by dialogue that we can resolve these issues.

Mr. Bertie Ahern

As I said earlier, most businesses are broadly happy with the protocol. There are issues of implementation and I have talked to some CEOs who say it is still cumbersome and that there is too much form filling and too many delays. They are more worried about the delays than the form filling, which is done online and does not take that long. There are delays with products. I do not want to mention names but some of the big companies that would be known to all of us and whose products would be in all of our houses say there are difficulties. They are reluctant to get involved in the debate. They see advantages and disadvantages but they do not want to play those.

I have not met anybody in Northern Ireland who is involved or who works in business and who has told me that he or she wants to leave the Single Market. I have asked the strongest of unionists whether, following their line, they wished to leave the Single Market and I have yet to find one who wishes to do so. We have been dealing with this matter for a good few years.

An agreement will have to be found with regard to the EU-UK customs agreement. We are not involved in the detail of these things. I do not wish to simplify the matter, but it seems that the red lane or express lane or whatever one calls it, is the way of dealing with it, and it looks as though the EU is up for that. How does one deal with the companies and allow people in? The term those involved like to use is "trusted traders". If people are in the category of being trusted traders between the UK and Northern Ireland, there are only checks.

There were always checks. I hate this argument about checks. There have been checks since 100 years ago on health, hygiene and security grounds. I hear some people in the North say there cannot be any checks. If somebody thinks there is a whole load of drugs or explosives in a box, will the box not be checked? Let us be real. Checks have always happened. They happen everywhere in the world. Even banana republics check things when they think there is a risk. It is not an argument.

The parameters have to be worked out. There are higher risks with regard to the sanitary and phytosanitary, SPS, risks. They are not as easy to solve some of those things. However, I think the EU is happy to have a broad definition of retailers and to extend the definition of "trusted traders". I am nearly certain, from the conference hosted by Barry Andrews, which all the parties attended, that the EU said it would be prepared to go for one form per shipment. Even doing that manually will not be too difficult. Most of the big companies are doing it by technology anyway. There is no form with that.

I am told the VAT issue is not a problem. State aids are more difficult. I am not sure what the solution is in that regard. I am not competent enough, but there are difficulties with state aids. The issue with SPS is that EU rules must apply. There is no way that the European Union will set aside its SPS standards for the British or any other individual country's standards. If it did, it would have war with every other country in Europe. EU standards are considered to be of the highest international standard and have been copied by many other parts of the world. There is no way it will drop or share those standards. We also know about the European Court of Justice issue. Those are the main issues.

I am sure that if the Cathaoirleach and a group of his colleagues were at this for a few days, these issues would be doable. We are not dealing with the impossible. It was far harder to negotiate parts of the Good Friday Agreement and many other things since than it will be to deal with these issues. If there is a will, there is a way. However, we have to leave a question mark in respect of that. I know that discussions have started again and that the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Taoiseach have been meeting the parties this week. I also know that the EU is trying to get proper meetings with the UK. Ongoing events are probably not helping that but I hope it will be able to do so.

Those are the areas around the solutions. Medicines are out of the protocol. The EU rules must be followed on the SPS issues. The definition of "retailer" is broad. Trusted traders are accepted. Red lines and express lanes should be agreed. That is where the solution lies, and the parameters relating to it are fairly clear. I have been across this stuff for six years. I do not think the task is insurmountable if people wish to solve the matter.

It is common sense. I know another speaker offered but I wish to make sure that every party on our rotation has an option to speak.

If the Chair wants to move on to a member who has not spoken, that is absolutely fine.

I am conscious of Mr. Ahern's time and commitment which has been very helpful.

I apologise for having had to step out for while in order to go to the Chamber. I was listening to Mr. Ahern and reflecting on my formative years, which were the years of negotiation leading up to the Good Friday Agreement when I watched his significant and important contribution. What struck me was his regular contribution to politics in the North. As Mr. Ahern said, it used to dominate the time in the Oireachtas.

I was thinking of a neighbour and friend of mine who passed away a few years ago, John Doherty or "Johnny Doc", as we knew him. Johnny was a veteran IRA man who was interned as a teenage schoolboy in the 1940s. His family fought hard to have him released because he was 15. He was subsequently released but when he turned 16, they came back and interned him again. I remember Johnny saying to a colleague of mine that he felt he was living in a united Ireland because there was not a day he did not turn on the TV to see the Taoiseach or the President in the city, both of them involved and engaged.

We have talked much today about building and restoring relationships such as British-Irish, unionist-nationalist relationships but there is also an island of Irish-Irish relationships that need to be rebuilt. Ms Gildernew touched on it, and Mr. Ahern reflected on the sort of NIMBYism that exists in this institution with regard to speaking rights for elected representatives, not to vote on legislation or finance, but just for scrutiny roles similar to this committee. I asked something similar of other witnesses in this round of meetings regarding how the State could act in the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement in the context of delivering.

Mr. Ahern led the charge on Articles 2 and 3 at the time. Some people think that Articles 2 and 3 were scrubbed when, in fact, they were replaced. There is an obligation to ensure that everyone born on the island has the right to be part of the Irish nation. I am keen to get Mr. Ahern's view on how those articles are given effect to, as opposed to its being inserted and that being it. How does the State and the Government do that with regard to speaking rights on non-contentious committees? I am sure this will surprise Mr. Ahern, if he is not already aware of it, that we had a Joint Committee on Autism on which parties in this House voted against having MLAs and MPs. Autism affects people throughout Ireland. The cross-Border autism centre is based in Armagh. It receives funding from the Executive.

How does Mr. Ahern think practical effect will be given to Articles 2 and 3. How will we get to the point again whereby the Government will be respectful of all views and will not brand views around constitutional change as being divisive? A notion has crept into the vernacular, of Ireland and Northern Ireland, as if Ireland ends at Dundalk. There has been a recent change in tone. How do we get the Government and the State to act and think nationally? How do we get it to be present and engaged nationally?

Mr. Ahern will be shocked to hear that I am not from a Fianna Fáil family. The reason I mention Johnny Doc's statement from way back when is that a constant memory of mine is watching the news reports at the time and seeing how people in the community and city I come from saw Mr. Ahern - and his predecessor - as being their Taoiseach. It is safe to say that Mr. Ahern saw us as his fellow citizens and countrymen. I do not know if that is a prevailing feature of the current Government. I am interested in how we meet in the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement and the replacement Articles 2 and 3 in order to get back into a situation-----

I do not want to get involved in political debate. We have tried to steer away from that. I understand the Senator's strong feelings. Other people have strong feelings the other way. I ask that such feelings are left out of the meeting for now and that we stick to the main theme for the sake of everybody.

Absolutely. The question I asked other witnesses is around the issue of Article 2 in particular.

There is no problem with the question.

We could give effect to that in a practical way.

Mr. Bertie Ahern

On the core of the question, it is not so much about attending committee meetings. This is where strand two comes in. Remember where we are at. The internal Northern Ireland position should be maintained until there is a change by the people through a vote. There is also the east-west relationship. Strand two, however, was designed and meant to be the place where we would have debate and interaction. We had the longer list of North-South bodies, as the Senator knows, which we placed first for discussion. When that was not agreed, strand two was still there for us to follow through on. That is where Ministers, both North and South, deputations, officials and other people could be brought in. That is how I saw the North-South bodies evolving. It worked for a while, although it has not worked at all for a long time, and that is where I see it. The North-South bodies should almost be a daily issue, where we are discussing matters and affiliated groups are involved. That is where that debate should be. There is lots of scope to do that.

In my time, we were at it in respect of health and agriculture. I watched the fisheries discussions that went on in the past year or so. These were ideal matters for proper activity involving North-South bodies, where people could get involved. It does not have to be just at ministerial level. It can involve Members of this House or organisations being brought into those discussion. That is the spirit of the constitutional change we brought in. That is how I envisioned it. Some years ago, I made a speech somewhere along the way about how that should evolve. I admit it has not evolved that way. I cannot help the Senator on that one.

Everybody has made a contribution. I appreciate other people might still want to speak; two are offering. We will take Senators Blaney and Currie as the final two speakers.

What is Mr. Ahern's view on criminality and border criminality? There is a view that much of the criminality that has taken place since the Good Friday Agreement has been given a kind of blind eye. It was part of the agreement back then, although it was not in writing, that there was an arrangement between the Governments whereby a blind eye was turned to some of the criminality that happened and continues to happen along the Border. What is Mr. Ahern's view on that? Was that the case? Moreover, how do we deal with it because it is a particular scourge?

Mr. Bertie Ahern

In fairness, no party or no individual from any party ever tried to get that kind of concession. It was never sought or given. Criminality is criminality regardless of who is associated with it or behind it. We all agree it has to be stamped out with no protection offered. It is always difficult if there are two jurisdictions and two different sets of police. One of the arguments people will make is that if we had one jurisdiction, border criminality would be easier to eradicate.

Criminality is not confined to the Border. As a constituency, criminals are good at some of that to this day at the port and other areas. There can be no protections for that. Practices have grown up over the Troubles for obvious reasons, because of the level of security that was on the Border and how policing was maybe not able to operate as freely, but I would like to think that, 25 years after the Good Friday Agreement, police on both sides of the Border can go anywhere and deal with criminality. That has to be the case. Nobody wants to condone criminality or threats.

There is a bigger issue in modern society that has nothing to with the North or the Troubles. It involves witnesses who were engaged in crime. It is not only an Irish thing. I hope people who were engaged in crime get away from it because witnesses are intimidated and threatened. That is not an issue to do with Northern Ireland but an issue to do with crime generally.

Does Senator Currie want to make a final contribution?

No, I am okay.

I am trying to make sure everybody who has not spoken gets in. I have no problem speaking, but I am happy to let Senator Currie in.

I always steal the Chairman's time.

It is not a question of time.

I have done it before.

We have all spoken at length. There is no problem. The Senator has a right to speak; I certainly support that. I am sure we all want to hear her.

I do not know whether Mr. Ahern is aware of this, but the Seanad is conducting a public consultation on the constitutional future of the island. We have heard young voices that have been incredibly powerful. We have had a mixture of different voices. Academics attended the last session, including some from the likes of the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI. It is incorrect to say we are not engaged in this conversation and putting it on the agenda. We very much are and the Seanad consultation is part of that. This committee will produce a report on it as well. We have seen excellent papers coming forward from the likes of the ESRI under the shared island unit relating to anybody's starting point, which is the nuts and bolts of how things actually work in health and education. We will build on that with the academic papers that have been referenced.

It should be everybody's priority that this conversation and the setting of the agenda is done in a generous and respectful way. It is not helpful if parties are told they are not interested in having the conversation about unity or constitutional change because they do not necessarily agree with being bounced into a citizens' assembly. There are other ways of doing that. I worry about the broader impact that has on people who are hesitant about engaging with this conversation and that if they open their mouths about, or do not agree with, one party's version of how it is done, they will be shamed about it. How can we have an inclusive outcome from a process if we cannot even agree there are different perspectives on an inclusive process to actually do it?

I was interested in what Mr. Ahern had to say about the citizens' assembly. It is very important we engage youth and, as the Cathaoirleach said, we engage communities. We are running engagement at community and political level. I would be interested to hear what Mr. Ahern might think of an Oireachtas committee or the likes of the New Ireland Forum, which had a role in the past, that kind of approach to bringing in all the perspectives, and, critically, how we avoid people feeling their voices will be silenced and shamed if they do not share the same perspective as others.

Mr. Bertie Ahern

That is a fair debate to have. There are a number of elements to what the Senator said. We are trying to involve everybody in the debate. Whenever I get a chance, I try to ask and persuade people from the unionist and loyalist traditions, even though I have no power, to participate in what they see as a new or agreed Ireland or find out why they are totally against it. They might want to tell us why they think it is poppycock.

That would be fair enough but it is to try to engage in the debate. However, if they see that when you do not agree with the line, you are in trouble - and I referred earlier to the recent conference - people are entitled to have their view because otherwise, it will work against the purpose. I am aware it is not the organisers but people have to work very hard to try to get others to participate in the debate without fear or favour and to not intimidate them out of it. That requires a bit of handling.

On the idea of a forum, I would far prefer a forum of elected representatives. I would give a gold medal to everyone who has served in a citizens' assembly. Fair play to them and I am not saying anything against them. If, however, the committee is asking me whether a citizens' assembly is the way that we bring together the whole of the work that is going on, then I am not so sure. That decision is not for now.

I am not a great lover of citizens' assemblies anyway about any issue. I do not like the idea of 100 people gathering and getting papers and so on. If I was on it and I could influence it then I might have a different view but when I am outside of it and if I do not see my view reflected then I am upset about it. It is just how it goes. I was at a recent assembly and when I gave an alternative view on the mayoralty issue, the chairman - who happens to be a good friend of mine, was the Dublin manager of the team that took six all-Ireland medals and is a man I hold in high regard - said to me that we were not at the assembly to listen to alternative views. He said that they had been told in the terms of reference that the view was we are to have a lord mayor and that we were only there to discuss the structure. I asked myself what was I doing there anyway. I was coming with an alternative view but they did not want it at all because they just did not think it was a good idea. If terms of reference are framed in a way that the decision has to be almost one way, then I do not like it. As for any debate on an issue as important as the future of our island, the future of our country and how we are going to operate for the next 100 years, I would far prefer it to be taken by people who are elected to the chambers, rather than people whose names were tossed into a computer and pulled out like the lotto numbers. That is not to take anything away from them but that is my view.

Just so Mr. Ahern is aware, we did have unionist and other voices participate in the Seanad public consultation. Mr. Ahern might be interested in that. It was not the political parties but there was participation by unionist voices.

Mr. Bertie Ahern

That is hugely important. It is a pity that the unionist politicians will not participate, even if they would like to come along to tell us that they think we are wrong. In fairness to the McGimpseys in 1984 or whenever it was - they are still around - to their credit they came down and they participated in the forum all those years ago. It would be important were they to come down. I believe they are wrong, however, to take the view that they will not participate because that means they are sucked in to the outcome. That is not what any of us are saying.

On that point, as a committee we have met the Northern Ireland Affairs Select Committee of the House of Commons, and that has included unionists. As a committee, we are going to Westminster - hopefully they will still be there in a couple of weeks' time - to talk about it. That is a forum. I have spoken to unionist elected politicians in the North. They have a problem coming here. They have the same right as anybody else to come in here but they do not want to come in here. They have met us, however, and maybe it will be helpful to build up a relationship through that House of Commons committee, on which unionist MPs can and do sit. This might be one way to a circular discussion. This is something we can explore.

Mr. Bertie Ahern

The Chairman could tell them that you are quite prepared to integrate these islands together, if they want to come and join us.

Of course.

If it is reasonable for me to say, I thank Mr. Ahern for his time. It is very important to us. I thank Mr. Ahern for the contribution of his insights and experience, as well as his wealth of knowledge and contacts. The whole history of modern Ireland is tied up with Bertie Ahern. Northern Ireland is something where Mr. Ahern has been uniquely placed to bring about peace. We must all acknowledge that. We look forward to Mr. Ahern hopefully continuing to contribute to our national debate. It is a role perhaps Mr. Ahern is happy to play, it is a matter for himself, but we are very happy to have Mr. Ahern here, to listen to him and to have his perspective at all times. I believe this is a universal view at this table. Thank you very much.

Mr. Bertie Ahern

I thank the Chairman. I thank members for participating. I am aware that everyone here is horrendously busy. I commend all of the work the members do. I have huge admiration for all public representatives, for the work they do and for the effort they put into their job. My thanks for that.

This concludes our public session. If some members will remain, we have some private business to do with a few pieces of housekeeping.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.07 p.m. and adjourned at 4.15 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 27 October 2022.
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